Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Doom_Shark on October 01, 2016, 01:29:02 am

Title: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Doom_Shark on October 01, 2016, 01:29:02 am
I will definitely miss Coppersmith. Already predicting Roadrunner's vote. As a side note, shouldn't the removed cards now go under Variants and Fan Cards due to no longer being official cards?
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: pacovf on October 01, 2016, 01:35:19 am
As a side note, shouldn't the removed cards now go under Variants and Fan Cards due to no longer being official cards?

Too soon, man. Too soon.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Doom_Shark on October 01, 2016, 01:47:16 am
As a side note, shouldn't the removed cards now go under Variants and Fan Cards due to no longer being official cards?

Too soon, man. Too soon.

You're right. We haven't had the appropriate period of mourning. I am so sorry.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Kirian on October 01, 2016, 03:06:47 am
As a side note, shouldn't the removed cards now go under Variants and Fan Cards due to no longer being official cards?

Too soon, man. Too soon.

You're right. We haven't had the appropriate period of mourning. I am so sorry.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/6a/e3/31/6ae33168cf90f905b246d72cec9c0a53.jpg)
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: arcee on October 01, 2016, 03:16:24 am
As a side note, shouldn't the removed cards now go under Variants and Fan Cards due to no longer being official cards?

And here I thought Stalin was dead.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Donald X. on October 01, 2016, 03:18:31 am
As a side note, shouldn't the removed cards now go under Variants and Fan Cards due to no longer being official cards?
There's nothing "unofficial" about the removed cards, we just (I hope) aren't printing more of them.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: AdrianHealey on October 01, 2016, 03:21:27 am
I never understood the hate on tribute. I think it's because people are bad at statistics.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Accatitippi on October 01, 2016, 03:40:09 am
It's gotta be Sabby, because it's the only one that doesn't have a successor of sorts. I liked the mechanic, but the card was so meh. I never minded Coppersmith much, and Bank fill the same niche as "crapload of coins if you draw a big deck" card.

Adrian, I think that if Tribute was always nonterminal and gave other bonuses according to the cards revealed, people would like it more. You play several, and the odds sort of level out. As it is, revealing two nonactions will often stop your chain before it can start, making it very swingy. Ultimately, it needs support to become reliable enough, and then you usually don't need it anymore because it doesn't do anything that the support it requires can't do.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Limetime on October 01, 2016, 09:47:14 am
Tribute is basically a stack of villages if your opponent plays an engine.
Coppersmith just feels good when it is good.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on October 01, 2016, 09:49:29 am
Easiest question ever. Coppersmith.

It soothes my wounds that more people feel this way though.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Elestan on October 01, 2016, 11:34:33 am
As a side note, shouldn't the removed cards now go under Variants and Fan Cards due to no longer being official cards?
There's nothing "unofficial" about the removed cards, we just (I hope) aren't printing more of them.

Good to know; then I won't feel obliged to avoid them in my tournament.

As for my most-missed:  It's Tribute, because of the way it alters your strategy based on your opponent's strategy.  Not many cards can do that to such a degree.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: TheOthin on October 01, 2016, 11:36:48 am
For me, it's Woodcutter. It's weak, but it can sometimes be very useful, and it's fun getting a lot of mileage out of a weak card. Plus, its basic function is really clean and simple: one of the basic "vanilla" Actions like Village, Smithy, etc.

Do we know if the removed cards will stay available online in some form?
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on October 01, 2016, 11:45:03 am
For me, it's Woodcutter. It's weak, but it can sometimes be very useful, and it's fun getting a lot of mileage out of a weak card. Plus, its basic function is really clean and simple: one of the basic "vanilla" Actions like Village, Smithy, etc.

Do we know if the removed cards will stay available online in some form?

ShIT won't include them, at least not at launch. Sadly.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: LastFootnote on October 01, 2016, 12:44:09 pm
My main issue with Tribute was that it made you not want to buy the Victory hybrid cards. Don't want to give your opponents a boost, you know.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: mail-mi on October 01, 2016, 01:00:03 pm
I accidentally voted for chancellor. I meant coppersmith.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Davio on October 01, 2016, 01:28:57 pm
I voted for Feast because it's unique and can do fun stuff, especially when throned.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Donald X. on October 01, 2016, 05:11:03 pm
Good to know; then I won't feel obliged to avoid them in my tournament.
Well I personally put forth no obligation; for all I know Jay will have some recommendations for official tournaments. If it were up to me we would say, we recommend not using them but it's okay if you do. It seems better not to require people running tournaments to upgrade. Just have fun with your tournament.

I personally recommend not playing with Spy in tournaments since it's slow and that's especially an issue there (ditto Scrying Pool). I've leaned away from Saboteur too, when asked to pick sets of 10. The others dropouts all seem fine.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Chris is me on October 01, 2016, 05:28:04 pm
I never liked Coppersmith. I miss Woodcutter more than I ever missed Coppersmith, and Woodcutter is so boring anyway. I just really like extra gains.

(btw I'm really glad ShIT stuck)
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: NoMoreFun on October 01, 2016, 11:26:54 pm
I would have kept Coppersmith and replaced Wishing Well instead. The way the +1 Card prevents the card  from comboing with a lot of other cards seems more like an oversight in the relentless pursuit of simplicity than a feature. It's something that was "fixed" in a later card (Mystic), just like other fixed cards that have now been removed (Thief and Chancellor).  You could argue it's a card that rewards knowing your deck, but Journeyman does that in a more interesting way,  and Mystic still rewards experienced players who can play it "blind".

On the other hand Coppersmith definitely had its uses and you could build a strategy around it.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Davio on October 02, 2016, 01:52:52 am
Wishing Well is perfectly fine, it's just sad that one its enablers, Scout, is finally gone. :(
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Jack Rudd on October 02, 2016, 06:50:26 am
I would have kept Coppersmith and replaced Wishing Well instead. The way the +1 Card prevents the card  from comboing with a lot of other cards seems more like an oversight in the relentless pursuit of simplicity than a feature.
Which leads to the interesting question: how much stronger would Wishing Well be with the +1 Card at the bottom of the card rather than the top?
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: GendoIkari on October 02, 2016, 10:31:03 am
I never understood the hate on tribute. I think it's because people are bad at statistics.

You say that, but I think that only 25% of people are bad at statistics, meaning that 9/10s of people are actually good at them.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Awaclus on October 02, 2016, 10:35:27 am
90-93% of people are worse at statistics than they think.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: GendoIkari on October 02, 2016, 10:36:10 am
90-93% of people are worse at statistics than they think.

Statistics are far more skippable than most people think.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: iguanaiguana on October 02, 2016, 02:34:23 pm
I would have kept Coppersmith and replaced Wishing Well instead. The way the +1 Card prevents the card  from comboing with a lot of other cards seems more like an oversight in the relentless pursuit of simplicity than a feature. It's something that was "fixed" in a later card (Mystic), just like other fixed cards that have now been removed (Thief and Chancellor).  You could argue it's a card that rewards knowing your deck, but Journeyman does that in a more interesting way,  and Mystic still rewards experienced players who can play it "blind".

On the other hand Coppersmith definitely had its uses and you could build a strategy around it.

Wishing Well is a card that you have to go for on a lot of weaker boards in order to enable an engine. It can lead to slow and tricky games but it is a lot stronger than it appears to even moderately skilled players. No way it should be removed. There would be an outcry.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Awaclus on October 02, 2016, 02:37:29 pm
Wishing Well is a powerful engine card. I probably buy it every time it's on the board these days, edge cases aside.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Asper on October 02, 2016, 04:27:51 pm
I guess Coppersmith is the one that isn't really implemented by an existing card (Merchant, arguably). It was also the one i was least sure would leave. I admit, however, that there's no other card that i feel would have been more plausible to leave from those that remained. I guess i'll keep Coppersmith around, even when i got the upgrades (if they ever come to Germany...).
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Doom_Shark on October 02, 2016, 05:14:30 pm
I guess Coppersmith is the one that isn't really implemented by an existing card (Merchant, arguably). It was also the one i was least sure would leave. I admit, however, that there's no other card that i feel would have been more plausible to leave from those that remained.
Have you forgotten that although Saboteur (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Saboteur) left, we are still stuck with Swindler (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Swindler)? I find swindler one of the most painful attacks, because everyone goes for it and it is possible to open with it. I think I'll take out swindler instead of Coppersmith (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Coppersmith). Although I'll probably be that guy that plays with all the removed cards anyway.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: LastFootnote on October 02, 2016, 05:34:50 pm
I guess Coppersmith is the one that isn't really implemented by an existing card (Merchant, arguably). It was also the one i was least sure would leave. I admit, however, that there's no other card that i feel would have been more plausible to leave from those that remained. I guess i'll keep Coppersmith around, even when i got the upgrades (if they ever come to Germany...).

I think Bank is arguably a version of Coppersmith. It is much more expensive, granted.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Tables on October 02, 2016, 06:07:30 pm
I guess Coppersmith is the one that isn't really implemented by an existing card (Merchant, arguably). It was also the one i was least sure would leave. I admit, however, that there's no other card that i feel would have been more plausible to leave from those that remained. I guess i'll keep Coppersmith around, even when i got the upgrades (if they ever come to Germany...).

I think Bank is arguably a version of Coppersmith. It is much more expensive, granted.

These two posts (well one post plus quote if you're being pedantic) make me wonder, what other kind of 'fixed' Coppersmiths could we have gotten? I think that if Coppersmith was non-terminal, maybe it'd have been a much more interesting card much more often, but well putting that in as a replacement would be awkward - it'd strictly better at $4, and needs yet something else to be interesting at $5. Another option is a treasure version of the card at $5 (likely doing the inverse effect, "Worth $1 per copper you have in play") but, this starts to sound extremely similar to bank.

I'd have quite liked to see the Coppersmith effect still stay around - I mean I did use a copper worth about $30 as my avatar for a while - but it's hard to work out what kind of card it would have to be on. A $5 duration? A $5 treasure? A non-terminal $5? Some other bonus as well at $5? I dunno.

Oh and in case it wasn't obvious, my answer to the poll was Coppersmith. I can't say I'm disappointed to see Coppersmith itself go, but I am disappointed to see there is now no card which makes coppers produce $1 more.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Asper on October 02, 2016, 06:28:15 pm
I guess Coppersmith is the one that isn't really implemented by an existing card (Merchant, arguably). It was also the one i was least sure would leave. I admit, however, that there's no other card that i feel would have been more plausible to leave from those that remained.
Have you forgotten that although Saboteur (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Saboteur) left, we are still stuck with Swindler (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Swindler)? I find swindler one of the most painful attacks, because everyone goes for it and it is possible to open with it. I think I'll take out swindler instead of Coppersmith (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Coppersmith). Although I'll probably be that guy that plays with all the removed cards anyway.

I don't like Swindler, either. I don't think it has to be removed, though. Neither did Coppersmith, but it was clear to me that the cards that would be removed would be removed for being practically wasted space. This isn't the case for Coppersmith, at least not as much as for Scout or Adventurer, but even less for Swindler.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Donald X. on October 02, 2016, 08:28:27 pm
These two posts (well one post plus quote if you're being pedantic) make me wonder, what other kind of 'fixed' Coppersmiths could we have gotten? I think that if Coppersmith was non-terminal, maybe it'd have been a much more interesting card much more often, but well putting that in as a replacement would be awkward - it'd strictly better at $4, and needs yet something else to be interesting at $5. Another option is a treasure version of the card at $5 (likely doing the inverse effect, "Worth $1 per copper you have in play") but, this starts to sound extremely similar to bank.
As you will see in the secret history, I tried a treasure for $5, "name a card, worth $1 per copy of that card you have in play." That looks so classic; how could it just be awful.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: NoMoreFun on October 03, 2016, 07:57:25 am
I guess Coppersmith is the one that isn't really implemented by an existing card (Merchant, arguably). It was also the one i was least sure would leave. I admit, however, that there's no other card that i feel would have been more plausible to leave from those that remained. I guess i'll keep Coppersmith around, even when i got the upgrades (if they ever come to Germany...).

I think Bank is arguably a version of Coppersmith. It is much more expensive, granted.

These two posts (well one post plus quote if you're being pedantic) make me wonder, what other kind of 'fixed' Coppersmiths could we have gotten? I think that if Coppersmith was non-terminal, maybe it'd have been a much more interesting card much more often, but well putting that in as a replacement would be awkward - it'd strictly better at $4, and needs yet something else to be interesting at $5. Another option is a treasure version of the card at $5 (likely doing the inverse effect, "Worth $1 per copper you have in play") but, this starts to sound extremely similar to bank.

I'd have quite liked to see the Coppersmith effect still stay around - I mean I did use a copper worth about $30 as my avatar for a while - but it's hard to work out what kind of card it would have to be on. A $5 duration? A $5 treasure? A non-terminal $5? Some other bonus as well at $5? I dunno.

Oh and in case it wasn't obvious, my answer to the poll was Coppersmith. I can't say I'm disappointed to see Coppersmith itself go, but I am disappointed to see there is now no card which makes coppers produce $1 more.

There's a few interesting "make coppers do more" fan cards out there. I liked "Mill Town" by LastFootnote (since removed from his expansion, which may mean it's on its way to being official like Settlers), which let you gain a card costing up to the number of Coppers you reveal.

Coppersmith probably could have been fixed with nothing more than a +buy. That way you could take more advantage of huge hands with lots of Coppers in them, and gain extra coppers if you need to.

"+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. +1 Card per Copper in your hand" would be an interesting card. It could get crazy in engines but you'd need to think about what you're doing.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: smcrtorchs on October 03, 2016, 10:02:33 am
I will miss adventurer, because it is the easiest dead card to replace an existing one when you want to try a board against a bot without that card.

I will miss spy, because it enables some engines on boards that otherwise would not be possible.

I will miss thief, because I just had so much fun with it, before I learned it was a bad card.

I will miss feast from boards where kings court is around.

I will miss chancellor from the boards with a 4 cost or less key card and no other shifter.

I will miss woodcuter, because the question another terminal or a + buy is not always that easy and because it is the only + buy many times on the board

I will miss secret chamber, because of its weird defensive mechanic that works so well against swindler, knights and maybe ok versus cursers to help you reach a pricepoint, but also because its discarding effect sometimes enabled a different strategy on the board, like reach a 9 cards hand and get a province no matter what those cards are.

I will miss great hall as a cheap 3rd pile to empty that does not harm your deck and because it enables a vagrant great hall engine sometimes.

I will miss tribute... well actually no, I am not  going to miss tribute.

I will miss Saboteur, because it can wreck a potion based deck like a scrying pool deck or a deck with only 1 very powerful card like minions and because it is a considerable addition to a deckbwith many villages.

I will miss coppersmith, because it does work better than people think in many boards. Enabling you to reach a desired pricepoint more often can be game defining and coppersmith had this.

I will miss scout, because roadrunner is going to cry.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: McGarnacle on October 03, 2016, 10:30:21 am
I will miss scout, because roadrunner is going to cry

Plus its your current post title.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: arcee on October 03, 2016, 11:38:14 pm
My binder will have space for keeping one of the old cards from each set.  I think Thief, Woodcutter, Saboteur, and Coppersmith are fighting for those slots.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on October 04, 2016, 12:19:44 am
I think instead of "most missed removed card", the question should be which removed cards will you continue to use?
For me it'll be Spy, Coppersmith, Scout, and maybe Woodcutter. Scout is only there for sentimental reasons, and even then I use a modded version with +$1, so maybe it shouldn't even count as using the old card. I miss Secret Chamber's reaction, but not the card (we have Vault as a better version of the upper half). I'll just make a fan card that uses the reaction (or a similar one).

I removed Saboteur from my IRL games after playing with it only once.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: amoffett11 on October 04, 2016, 09:37:55 am
I think instead of "most missed removed card", the question should be which removed cards will you continue to use?

I was thinking along the same lines.  When I play IRL games, I will either do the DXV method of just grabbing two sets and playing with those, but sometimes if there's going to be a lot of Dominion played we'll just put all the randomizers in one pile, play the first 10 cards, then next game go to the next 10 cards, and so on, sometimes playing right through the pile over the course of a weekend.  (For the record, I own Base, Intrigue, Seaside, Cornucopia/Guilds, and Empires). 

Woodcutter can go, I have lots of +Buy.  Thief is replaced by Bandit, so I don't need Thief.  Feast can easily go.  Adventurer I almost lean towards keeping, it's my only 6 cost card apart from Harem and Nobles.  But it will probably go as well.

Chancellor I'm going to keep playing with.  I don't own Dark Ages or Adventures, so I don't have Scavenger or Messenger, and I like Chancellor's ability enough that I will keep it in.  It's a useful teaching tool as well. 

Spy is a tough one for me.  There's not a new card that replaced what Spy does, but what Spy does is kind of annoying.  I know some of my opponents like playing it, but they hate playing against it.  We'll play a game with a workshop or an ironworks and I'll grab 5 or 6 for my engine, and now every turn is like (I spy on you again.  And again.  And again.  Oh wait, you're still shuffling?  OK fine, but once you've drawn your hand I spy on you 6 times.  Skip it, skip it, ok there's an estate, keep it there the next 3 times).  Spy might have to go. 

Great Hall can go, it's replaced by Mill.  Scout can go as well for Smithy Scout.  Tribute I'm on the fence with, I like the randomness in just-for-games and I like the song.

Secret Chamber can go, no one but me ever buys it because it seems too complicated.  It's also kind of been replaced by Diplomat, although it's also a complicated card. 

Saboteur I'm on the fence with, I never buy it but some of my opponents like it.  It might stay.

For me, I'll keep using Coppersmith for sure.  In the games where it shines it's really fun, and I often try to make it work even when it's going to be hard, I don't take my IRL games very seriously.  We once played a game with Ironworks and Heralds where I was able to get 6 Coppersmiths in play. 


Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Dingan on October 04, 2016, 01:10:01 pm
I will not miss Tribute that much.  In my experience, cards with a bunch of "if ... else if ... else if ..." (Tribute, Ironworks, Transmute, Ironmonger, etc.) aren't very fun for beginner players that aren't computer programmers, they're hard to for me to explain, and they take a lot of time to resolve.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Davio on October 04, 2016, 01:35:41 pm
I think a lot of people (including me) didn't like Tribute because it didn't have a standard +1 Action, making it too much of a liability.

It might have been fine if it only provided +1 Action for each unique action card revealed while giving +1 Action out of the box.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Witherweaver on October 04, 2016, 02:15:37 pm
I think a lot of people (including me) didn't like Tribute because it didn't have a standard +1 Action, making it too much of a liability.

It might have been fine if it only provided +1 Action for each unique action card revealed while giving +1 Action out of the box.

It's also, like, just wrong for an engine, because to reliably give +Actions, your opponent has to have a lot of Actions, in which case there are likely better engine enablers on the board.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: JThorne on October 04, 2016, 05:11:35 pm
I voted for Woodcutter purely because I have seen way too many kingdoms with no +buy. No extra actions happens sometimes; no draw happens sometimes; no trashing happens sometimes, but no +buy seems to happen quite a lot. The fact that it didn't get replaced with another +buy card is going to make that phenomenon slightly more common.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Chris is me on October 04, 2016, 05:12:39 pm
I voted for Woodcutter purely because I have seen way too many kingdoms with no +buy. No extra actions happens sometimes; no draw happens sometimes; no trashing happens sometimes, but no +buy seems to happen quite a lot. The fact that it didn't get replaced with another +buy card is going to make that phenomenon slightly more common.

In fairness, Intrigue got a new +Buy card with none removed, so it's almost the same ratio.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Accatitippi on October 04, 2016, 06:01:24 pm
Artisan also fills the same role as +Buy. You can't double Province, but it's arguably better than most +Buy cards while you build.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: ObtusePunubiris on October 04, 2016, 06:21:04 pm
I think instead of "most missed removed card", the question should be which removed cards will you continue to use?

That is the big question for me and my group, and we haven't agreed on an answer yet.  We have opinions ranging from, "The more cards, the merrier.  We should use them all; old and new" to "I trust that the designer knows what he's doing. If he thinks they should go, we should take 'em out" and all points in between.

Heck, I haven't even agreed with myself on an opinion.  I'm considering either A) keeping them all, B) just keeping the cards that don't seem to have a direct replacement [Chancellor, Woodcutter, Adventurer, Saboteur and Coppersmith], or C) keeping the cards I've had the most fun with in the past [Tribute, Saboteur and Coppersmith].

Or I could take the intersection of those three and just keep Saboteur and Coppersmith.  As you can see, I'm very decisive.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Doom_Shark on October 04, 2016, 09:46:45 pm
I think instead of "most missed removed card", the question should be which removed cards will you continue to use?
That is a fair point. Under that question, I think it will depend on two things: wether I replace the removed cards in the box (probably) and wether or not I feel lile getting out the extra box for whichever ones aren't in the main box. So it really depends on wether I feel lile seeing how the old ones interact with the new ones. Either case I moght end up leaving Coppersmith around anyway.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Davio on October 05, 2016, 06:17:11 am
I voted for Woodcutter purely because I have seen way too many kingdoms with no +buy. No extra actions happens sometimes; no draw happens sometimes; no trashing happens sometimes, but no +buy seems to happen quite a lot. The fact that it didn't get replaced with another +buy card is going to make that phenomenon slightly more common.
Often there's no explicit +Buy, but instead another way to gain more than 1 card per turn.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on October 05, 2016, 07:51:27 am
I think instead of "most missed removed card", the question should be which removed cards will you continue to use?

Other than Coppersmith, which is a given, I think also Tribute and maybe Saboteur (if I'm playing against an opponent who doesn't hate it, which is rare) and Woodcutter. The other ones were pretty much useless and/or have a good replacement.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on October 05, 2016, 08:47:46 am
I might keep Great Hall, even with mill...

Coppersmith for sure.

Woodcutter, Tribute, and Sab no.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: jamfamsam on October 05, 2016, 11:34:19 pm
90-93% of people are worse at statistics than they think.

Statistics are far more skippable than most people think.

92.54% of statistics are made up on the spot.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Davio on October 06, 2016, 03:08:39 am
90-93% of people are worse at statistics than they think.

Statistics are far more skippable than most people think.

92.54% of statistics are made up on the spot.
There seems to be some optimal number of digits after the dot to make it a believable statistic.
90% seems made up, but so does 92.5414243434343535353%.
So I think the right number is 2.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Accatitippi on October 06, 2016, 04:11:01 am
90-93% of people are worse at statistics than they think.

Statistics are far more skippable than most people think.

92.54% of statistics are made up on the spot.

And the remaining 16.43% are made up in advance.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on October 06, 2016, 08:16:28 am
90-93% of people are worse at statistics than they think.

Statistics are far more skippable than most people think.

92.54% of statistics are made up on the spot.
54.76% of statistics have decimal points to make you think they are more accurate.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: ObtusePunubiris on October 06, 2016, 09:25:23 am
90-93% of people are worse at statistics than they think.

Statistics are far more skippable than most people think.

92.54% of statistics are made up on the spot.
54.76% of statistics have decimal points to make you think they are more accurate.
I'm 73.4% certain that the second digit after the decimal is far more skippable than most people think.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Amac on October 16, 2016, 07:43:16 pm
I'm going to make a list out of this:

12. Adventurer - This card, honestly, I never found it useful or fun to play. I don't even understand how a card that draws 2, and not even actions, was priced at 6. Yeah, it skips over victory cards and it doesn't get actions if you have none, but as draw it is weak and it doesn't do anything else. Also, it doesn't work well without (treasure) trashing, but those horrendous victory cards don't need to be trashed to make it even semi-useful. There are so few cards who cannot trash victory cards but can trash copper.. (I think Adventurer still is worse than, let's say, Margrave if it would cost 5.)
11. Sabouteur - Ugh. Slow to resolve, slow to play, not good if you play it yourself and not good if someone else plays it. This card is only annoyance and enormously slow-paced. I played it in 4p once, it wasn't fun. It just wasn't. As much as I love Swindler (the game-changing aspect of it makes it one of my 5 favourite cards in all of dominion), Saboteur doesn't get any of this love.
10. Thief - Just not fun. I honestly only like it somewhat as the chapel payload destroyer in situations with no virtual coin. And maybe Thief-Gardens. Other than that, I just don't think the card felt ever fun or useful.
9. Scout - Another instance of a very poor card, this and Adventurer are clearly the two worst cards ever printed. But Scout at least is fun. You get to arrange some cards, get annoying victory cards out of the way. And in mono-intrigue games it can get to the point where it goes from very bad to 'meh, maybe it is not so bad after a-- oh it still is not good enough'.
8. Spy - A slow-to-resolve cantrip that is Scrying Pool without the coolness value. It is bland and I honestly don't think I have ever seen a board where I thought 'Spy is a killer card here, man'. At least it sometimes can be good, but this is one of those 'yeah a fun card but if it was never printed I don't miss it'-cards
7. Great Hall - Same as Spy, but I at least like the double card type-concept of this card. It was maybe too easy, but not all cards have to be hard to understand. In the end, it did add too little, like my #6
6. Woodcutter - Suffers from the 'too easy'-problem, but also from the fact that it is almost always the worst possible option for +Buy. It is an option, but really, only Herbalist is worse usually. The only reason I rank this at 6 is Woodcutter-Gardens, which was much more fun to play that Workshop-Gardens in my base only days. But now we have Squire-Gardens and Beggar-Gardens, so who cares about Woodcutter-Gardens.
5. Secret Chamber - This is the good part. Fun cards to play with unique concepts. This unique concept is probably where Secret Chamber goes wrong. Its reaction is fun, but it is seldom game-breaking and furthermore, can be somewhat confusing. The discard option is all right but not interesting, it is the reaction part that is fun. The largest reason is that it makes topdeck attacks much less worthwile. Just put that estate on top when your opponent tries to Swindle. Sadly, usually it just prevents those attacks from being bought, it doesn't help Secret Chamber to be used more often.
4. Feast - Procession/Feast is awesome. TR/Feast is great. But that's the largest part of the fun. Buying a 4 to trash it and get a 5 is only nice if one doesn't need that silver, usually. Still, the card idea is the thing I like. Sort of like mathematics in Innovation. (But that is actually a huge card)
3. Tribute - Still not the most memorable card, but I think it is fun to just play something and see what happens. It is dicy, but can be very good. Randomness in the game can be fun, as long as the games are more casually oriented.
2. Chancellor - Back in the day this was a pretty unique concept. Chancellor is also one of the few cards that doesn't face from poor opportunity cost or the fact that it is unnecessary; it is strictly better than silver providing one has the actions to spare. Also, it is a fast card. It speeds up your own game and the wording doesn't slow the game down. The only problem is Scavenger, really.
1. Coppersmith - Just because Coppesmith is the most unique card and it is fun with large hands. Just playing an action and saying 'well that's +7 coin' (in the end, at least) feels really great. It was too strong with TR/KC in my view, but that was also really fun in a sense - copper worth 4 feels pretty crazy. It was somewhat the problem of this card anyway; either it is completely hopeless (in boards without possible large hands or boards with (copper) trashing), or really good.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: gloures on October 18, 2016, 03:42:44 am
(I think Adventurer still is worse than, let's say, Margrave if it would cost 5.)
You're giving Adventurer too much credit, If it would cost 5 it would be very similar to Harvest, probably worse than Harvest. Adventurer is the only card in Dominion that I never really understood the cost (specially since it's so heavily outclassed by gold...)
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: AdrianHealey on October 18, 2016, 04:49:13 am
Adventurer would be a fine $3: a cycling terminal silver.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Amac on October 18, 2016, 05:50:33 am
(I think Adventurer still is worse than, let's say, Margrave if it would cost 5.)
You're giving Adventurer too much credit, If it would cost 5 it would be very similar to Harvest, probably worse than Harvest. Adventurer is the only card in Dominion that I never really understood the cost (specially since it's so heavily outclassed by gold...)

It was not my intention to say Adventurer is almost as good as Margrave there. I just wanted to say it is worse than a random pretty good 5, whilst costing 6. (and 5 or 6 doesn't face the problem of brokenness problems in the early game and such. Furthermore, Adventurer isn't that good in the early game anyway) Even as a 5, it would be very situational. I guess it would be better than Mandarin, just maybe. But roundabout that level. At least it doesn't face competition from gold here.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Davio on October 18, 2016, 06:24:47 am
(I think Adventurer still is worse than, let's say, Margrave if it would cost 5.)
You're giving Adventurer too much credit, If it would cost 5 it would be very similar to Harvest, probably worse than Harvest. Adventurer is the only card in Dominion that I never really understood the cost (specially since it's so heavily outclassed by gold...)
Maybe it has a skewed cost because it appears in the same set as Chapel.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: ackmondual on March 04, 2017, 04:43:41 pm
I would have kept Coppersmith and replaced Wishing Well instead. The way the +1 Card prevents the card  from comboing with a lot of other cards seems more like an oversight in the relentless pursuit of simplicity than a feature. It's something that was "fixed" in a later card (Mystic), just like other fixed cards that have now been removed (Thief and Chancellor).  You could argue it's a card that rewards knowing your deck, but Journeyman does that in a more interesting way,  and Mystic still rewards experienced players who can play it "blind".

On the other hand Coppersmith definitely had its uses and you could build a strategy around it.

Really needed something like Scout, which also got the axe, but at least was replaced by Patrol.  There are still cards like Navigator and Cartographer
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: DrHandsomeface on March 04, 2017, 10:59:24 pm
(I think Adventurer still is worse than, let's say, Margrave if it would cost 5.)
You're giving Adventurer too much credit, If it would cost 5 it would be very similar to Harvest, probably worse than Harvest. Adventurer is the only card in Dominion that I never really understood the cost (specially since it's so heavily outclassed by gold...)
Maybe it has a skewed cost because it appears in the same set as Chapel.

I think that Adventurer could be a relevant card at $6 if the text were "reveal 2 Treasure cards other than copper." On many boards It'd worth at least two silvers; not great but worth thinking about.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Chris is me on March 04, 2017, 11:06:06 pm
(I think Adventurer still is worse than, let's say, Margrave if it would cost 5.)
You're giving Adventurer too much credit, If it would cost 5 it would be very similar to Harvest, probably worse than Harvest. Adventurer is the only card in Dominion that I never really understood the cost (specially since it's so heavily outclassed by gold...)
Maybe it has a skewed cost because it appears in the same set as Chapel.

do people still seriously think Chapel has the wrong cost
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Witherweaver on March 04, 2017, 11:07:47 pm
I mostly just feel bad for Theory.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: werothegreat on March 05, 2017, 12:27:48 am
I mostly just feel bad for Theory.

Also, all us six-star members getting labelled "Adventurers".  We should be "Artisans", dammit!  Or "Hirelings" or "Grand Markets" or something
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Witherweaver on March 05, 2017, 12:31:28 am
I mostly just feel bad for Theory.

Also, all us six-star members getting labelled "Adventurers".  We should be "Artisans", dammit!  Or "Hirelings" or "Grand Markets" or something

I think if you reached it before 2nd edition you should get to keep Adventurer.  Newbs can get a new label~
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: Skumpy on March 05, 2017, 04:09:58 pm
I mostly just feel bad for Theory.

Also, all us six-star members getting labelled "Adventurers".  We should be "Artisans", dammit!  Or "Hirelings" or "Grand Markets" or something

I think if you reached it before 2nd edition you should get to keep Adventurer.  Newbs can get a new label~


I mean, sure, I'd take a Champion or Teacher or Overlord title. Feel free to keep Adventurer.
Title: Re: The most missed removed card.
Post by: NotAChaosGod on March 06, 2017, 06:16:04 pm
Tribute suffers from the Puerto Rico problem of "value drastically changes depending on who you're sitting next to".  While in a 2 player game this is zero sum, in larger games it's quite frustrating realizing that the person next to you can buy a very productive Tribute while yours will be crap.  There's nothing wrong with cards fluctuating between games, but between table seats tends to arouse ire (see also possession).

I'll miss Coppersmith, because it was so fun when it worked.