Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Let's Discuss ... => Topic started by: faust on September 14, 2016, 12:49:11 pm

Title: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: faust on September 14, 2016, 12:49:11 pm
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/71/Tomb.jpg/800px-Tomb.jpg)
Lara was furious when she raided that tomb and all she found was a bunch of metal chips.

So, in case you didn't know, trashing is good. Now it's even better. Is this really worth it? Is it just encouraging the predominant strategy?

Well, there's a couple of quirks here. First, I rather like that this makes it more realistic to play an engine on a sort of sloggy board with junkers and weak trashing and come out ahead. It's also interesting as a deterrent from trashing attacks. I mean, you probably still can't ignore Knights only because of Tomb, but maybe losing the split 6-4 isn't all bad. It's also nice that certain cards on the weak side like Farmland or Rats get a boost.

The most interesting question is how much do you cannibalize your deck during the endgame? Imagine you have junk-dealt away all starting cards, the Province pile goes goes - when do you start playing that Junk Dealer again?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: Chris is me on September 14, 2016, 12:52:37 pm
I think every Dominion player needs to play the pre designed kingdom "Tomb of the Rat King" at least once in their lives. It's purpose built for Tomb to be stupid good.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: Jack Rudd on September 14, 2016, 01:02:54 pm
Yay! The Bishop-Fortress Golden Deck can make you 16 VP/turn instead of 12!
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: mameluke on September 14, 2016, 01:18:51 pm
Yeah, I don't know what this adds. You were going to trash anyways. You'll be nudged a bit more towards an extra Forager or using the trash option of Amulet more. I guess in the endgame it's just another source of VP if you need to break a tie, so trash those Mining Villages even if you don't need the +$2.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: drsteelhammer on September 14, 2016, 01:19:42 pm
Chris pointed this it out with Palace yesterday, but here it's relevant again: Not all games are engines. Isn't is awesome to slowly rebuild your deck after Cultist almost completely ruined it? How cool is that? You'll get points for Rebuilding your deck while your opponent has to pay for points! Okay, maybe Rebuild actually gets even better, depending on the other trashing available.

Also, my Mine BM will wreck your stupid other money variants! Actually I just made that up, it'll probably beat Explorer BM though.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: Chris is me on September 14, 2016, 01:22:04 pm
Bonfire buys on the last turn give you 2 VP for $3 and a buy. Not terrible, really.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: mameluke on September 14, 2016, 01:24:36 pm
Clarification: you get +1 VP for each card you trash, right? So, this is good with or without Tomb, but it might be a good idea to work towards that deck that can draw everything and then you can Forge all of those Coppers and Estates and whatever else for tons of VP.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: McGarnacle on September 14, 2016, 02:53:31 pm
I like this. It does encourage the predominant strategy often, but it opens up interesting possibilities (like lat game trashing) and makes compulsive trashers (like Junk Dealer) better.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: faust on September 14, 2016, 03:13:41 pm
Quote from: drsteelhammer on September 14, 2016, 01:19:42 pm
Chris pointed this it out with Palace yesterday, but here it's relevant again: Not all games are engines. Isn't is awesome to slowly rebuild your deck after Cultist almost completely ruined it?

You used rebuild and awesome in the same sentence...
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: drsteelhammer on September 14, 2016, 03:34:54 pm
Quote from: faust on September 14, 2016, 03:13:41 pm
Quote from: drsteelhammer on September 14, 2016, 01:19:42 pm
Chris pointed this it out with Palace yesterday, but here it's relevant again: Not all games are engines. Isn't is awesome to slowly rebuild your deck after Cultist almost completely ruined it?

You used rebuild and awesome in the same sentence...

Isn't it awesome that I can use rebuild and the latter word in the same sentence and it still makes sense?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: McGarnacle on September 14, 2016, 03:53:08 pm
Quote from: drsteelhammer on September 14, 2016, 03:34:54 pm
Quote from: faust on September 14, 2016, 03:13:41 pm
Quote from: drsteelhammer on September 14, 2016, 01:19:42 pm
Chris pointed this it out with Palace yesterday, but here it's relevant again: Not all games are engines. Isn't is awesome to slowly rebuild your deck after Cultist almost completely ruined it?

You used rebuild and awesome in the same sentence...

Isn't it awesome that I can use rebuild and the latter word in the same sentence and it still makes sense?

I think its beyond awesome
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: jomini on September 14, 2016, 06:23:38 pm
The big thing tomb enables is gaining cards specifically to trash them. For instance, babying along a Moneylender as a terminal silver costs a gain and is generally bad if your +buy means you need to spend $3 or more on it (possibly even if you need to spend $2 for an extra +buy). Tomb, however, makes Moneylender into a mini-Monument. Not great for mass build out (what with needing to line up paired stop cards), but good enough to spend a gain on a +buy instead of a silver. Many other cards like Spice merchant, Upgrade, or Amulet can all encourage you to fiddle around with gain & trash. More interestingly will be the setups where you can chain gains in order to increase the number cards you get to trash - gaining Feodum so you can Sacrifice 4 times for 6VP.

One place this can be a crazy good source of points is with Wt. Any surplus +buys can become a point each until the copper/curses run out (and they might). Getting to 5 VP a turn and still being able to buy a province is quite doable. With enough +buy possible on the board, you want to think hard about gumming up a Wt deck instead of churning copper to the trash for VP.

Another nice shot is with Salt. As cost efficient as Islands and can end the game quickly. Salt/Baths is somewhat viable on its own, but when you take a Salt Bath in a Tomb you can even more quickly hammer through the Province pile while getting decent points for a rush.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: schoeggu on September 21, 2016, 04:52:13 am
Fortress-Rats can make up to 20 VP each turn. If you add a Scheme (to topdeck the Fortress) you are guaranteed to make n VPs each turn where n is the number of rats you have in your deck.

It's extremly easy and fast to setup.
Buy 1 Scheme, 1 Fortress and at least 1 Rat. And then the golden deck will build itself in a few turns.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: ipofanes on September 21, 2016, 07:40:13 am
Should be good with Watchtower. For instance, buying Masterpiece at the price of a province and trashing ALL the cards would net you the same number of points as province, sans the clogging.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on September 21, 2016, 07:50:12 am
Or trashing a feodum and the silvers with watchtower. 4(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png) for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png).
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: drsteelhammer on September 21, 2016, 11:38:25 am
It important to remember that VP is worth less in Tomb games due to the inflated amount of points available. So while there are all the cute tricks available, they become less appealing very quickly if there is gaining and other trashing on the board.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: Beyond Awesome on October 27, 2016, 05:08:02 pm
Out of the few games I've played so far, I've not had many edge cases came up. I did trash a little extra one game for some points, but overall, Tomb seems to not change the game much. I guess there are exceptions, but I've yet to encounter them.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: drsteelhammer on October 27, 2016, 06:26:38 pm
I played a game where sacrifice was the only village and I believe Ironworks was the only non-terminal otherwise. The accumulated tomb points did make me win the game, essentially.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: Limetime on October 27, 2016, 06:31:17 pm
Tomb only makes a large difference in a few games but thats ok because it's a landmark.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: soudek01 on November 15, 2016, 12:05:30 am
The only semi-problem I see with Tomb is that it could do absolutely nothing if the board doesn't have any trashing. This isn't a big deal and is not highly likely, but I would be a little bummed if I was wanting to play with Landmarks and that happened. I wonder how often boards don't have any trashing..?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: Elestan on November 15, 2016, 12:17:50 am
Coincidentally, I just ran a (3-player format) tournament in which Tomb figured prominently in one of the sets:

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Lurker.jpg/200px-Lurker.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Lurker) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f1/Market_Square.jpg/200px-Market_Square.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Market_Square) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/09/Masterpiece.jpg/200px-Masterpiece.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Masterpiece) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/1f/Feodum.jpg/200px-Feodum.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Feodum) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/8c/Gardens.jpg/200px-Gardens.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Gardens)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3c/Messenger.jpg/200px-Messenger.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Messenger)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/70/Rats.jpg/200px-Rats.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Rats) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e0/Council_Room.jpg/200px-Council_Room.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Council_Room) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/96/Haggler.jpg/200px-Haggler.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Haggler) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/dd/Border_Village.jpg/200px-Border_Village.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Border_Village)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/4/42/Donate.jpg/320px-Donate.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Donate) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/71/Tomb.jpg/320px-Tomb.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Tomb)
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: JThorne on November 15, 2016, 12:07:15 pm
Donate + Tomb

There's a rules question: Can you donate nearly your whole deck for tomb points on the turn where you end the game if you have a +buy? For example, you buy the last Province, then a Donate, trashing everything other than the green. Since Donate happens after your turn, and the game ends at the end of your turn, my guess is that it doesn't work.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: Chris is me on November 15, 2016, 12:11:28 pm
It does not, no. You never get to Donate if the game ends before "between turns" happens.

Anyhow Tomb is really cool and on the right boards becomes the defining / primary way to score. On other boards it's just a fun bonus or makes trash attacks a little worse etc
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: faust on November 15, 2016, 12:12:17 pm
Quote from: JThorne on November 15, 2016, 12:07:15 pm
Donate + Tomb

There's a rules question: Can you donate nearly your whole deck for tomb points on the turn where you end the game if you have a +buy? For example, you buy the last Province, then a Donate, trashing everything other than the green. Since Donate happens after your turn, and the game ends at the end of your turn, my guess is that it doesn't work.

Yeah, it doesn't work. I had a game with Donate, Wolf Den, Black Market once which had a similar issue. Timing the Donation is really tricky.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: schadd on November 15, 2016, 12:30:12 pm
lurker/rats/tomb is fun. +1 {card, action, vp}; the forbidden fruit
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: markusin on November 15, 2016, 12:33:51 pm
Well, if the only trashing comes from a trash-for-benefit card like Remodel or Graverobber, Tomb let's engines that rely on these to win by a couple of VP even if the Provinces are split evenly.

Just like with Farmland, Tomb may be a card that is stronger when it lets you win by a couple of VP rather than through a blowout VP lead victory.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: markusin on November 15, 2016, 12:36:00 pm
Quote from: soudek01 on November 15, 2016, 12:05:30 am
The only semi-problem I see with Tomb is that it could do absolutely nothing if the board doesn't have any trashing. This isn't a big deal and is not highly likely, but I would be a little bummed if I was wanting to play with Landmarks and that happened. I wonder how often boards don't have any trashing..?

Luckily, Landmarks are rather easy to swap IRL. Online I guess this issue is relevant.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: ackmondual on March 08, 2017, 02:17:16 am
Makes trashing your Hovel worth 1 extra pt!  Nothing to sneer at if you ask me.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: McGarnacle on March 08, 2017, 10:14:44 am
Quote from: ackmondual on March 08, 2017, 02:17:16 am
Makes trashing your Hovel worth 1 extra pt!  Nothing to sneer at if you ask me.


*sneers ostentatiously*
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Tomb
Post by: Chappy7 on April 13, 2017, 11:35:44 am
I like to set up kingdoms where tomb makes a normally bad card/strategy a little better.  For example, I had fun with tomb and develop, with no other trashing.  Still a bad card, but if it is the only trasher in the kingdom and tomb is on the board, it is interesting. It makes you try out stuff you normally wouldn't.  Same with rats, mine, or several others mediocre trashers