Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Let's Discuss ... => Topic started by: faust on August 28, 2016, 08:11:59 am

Title: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Baths
Post by: faust on August 28, 2016, 08:11:59 am: (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/a9/Baths.jpg/800px-Baths.jpg)
I meant to write some illuminating blob, but then it was really hot and I went to the lake instead.

- How much money would you "spend" for this?
- Does this ever change your strategy, or do you just pick up some VP on a dud turn?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Baths
Post by: Jack Rudd on August 28, 2016, 08:20:47 am: Tactician likes this.

As does Chapel.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Baths
Post by: jomini on August 28, 2016, 08:44:55 am: Anything with VP chips on it will change the marginal return on cards, so yes this will influence my strategy.

For instance, say Expedition is out. Early - mid game I hit $3. I could buy a Silver and have a permanent increase in buying power and likely cash density ... or I could get three more cards and boost my next hand. There will be times where silver is clearly better and times when Expedition is clearly better, but with Baths it is more like Expedition + a freebie empty-handed Island. For instance if I am I gambling to hit $6 or $7 when my opponent has a 40% chance of using Militia, 2VP may swing things towards taking the plunge. Other events, like Mission, Pilgrimage, Training, Lost Arts, Tax, etc. all change their efficiency with Baths out.

A particularly nasty option heavily enabled by Baths is to go for a Salt Baths rush strategy. You need to hit $4 per turn and you gain 3 VP, 0 cards per turn. Coppers are helpful so just about anything that gives you net +buy or copper gain can let you end the game by T10 with 23 VP. Sure it can be beaten, but that is a lot of Duchies to grab (if bought singly the other guy needs to start on T3 and never whiff; an engine needs to start on T6 with a singleton and then hit doubles every turn but the last when they can take the final province) and with the VP from Baths that means you need to snag 3 Provinces to compete (and each province you snag kicks the turn counter down by one). Beggar, for instance, would tempt me to open Beggar/Salt. I have pretty good odds that I will not whiff on T3-T4 and once I get those coppers my odds of hitting $3 or less goes down substantially (you will have 6 Baths turns and 8 Salt turns, so you can play Beggar or any other copper gainer 2x in the early game to improve your odds of hitting $4).

More generally, Baths reward early trashing strategies (like say opening double Steward) over early gaining strategies (like opening Iw/Wshop to rapidly build out a Village/Smithy engine). The also change tactical concerns (e.g. top deck a copper with Count instead of gaining a replacement) that impact at the margins or like how Opost will likely become a decent play a shuffle or two sooner as you can always use it as a Monument.

As far as when to "buy" Baths just for the points - well I think early game you should go with "Would I buy Ghall here without anything fancy (e.g. Ironmonger, Expand, Scout, Apothecary)?" and late game it should bought instead of Duchy until the VP run out, you reach the point where you would buy estates, or you have some reason to think you will have more sub-duchy hands than your opponent (e.g. you go BM while he goes engine).
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Baths
Post by: Limetime on August 28, 2016, 06:34:54 pm: It likes things that alms does except gaining things.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Baths
Post by: Chris is me on August 29, 2016, 09:37:59 am: You really don't aim for this most of the time. It just kind of happens.

Sometimes you skip that Pearl Diver after your Steward turn, or maybe you Remake two Coppers instead of Copper and Estate to get the VP. It's important enough to try for sometimes, but not really enough to go out of your way for. Sure does make those late Silvers even less appealing though.

Because it's so hard to activate, the points aren't just going to run out by turn 8 on most boards, so it matters for longer.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Baths
Post by: J Reggie on August 29, 2016, 11:13:03 am: I was quite happy to open Overlord on a board with Baths.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Baths
Post by: McGarnacle on August 29, 2016, 05:31:00 pm: This looks cool. I wonder how much it will influence the "oh well, might as get a ___" buys. I seem to have a lot of those.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Baths
Post by: Davio on August 30, 2016, 07:12:01 am: Well, this does influence decisions where I'm doubting whether gaining a card is useful.

Usually, when you have a couple Silvers, more Silvers don't help that much. Let's say I have 2 Silvers already, haven't hit $5 and got $3 again, blegh. Often I would begrudgingly get another Silver, but in this case I might just get nothing and grab the 2 VP instead.

Also it might make your openings less straightforward.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Baths
Post by: McGarnacle on August 30, 2016, 09:10:51 am: Quote from: Davio on August 30, 2016, 07:12:01 am
Well, this does influence decisions where I'm doubting whether gaining a card is useful.

Usually, when you have a couple Silvers, more Silvers don't help that much. Let's say I have 2 Silvers already, haven't hit $5 and got $3 again, blegh. Often I would begrudgingly get another Silver, but in this case I might just get nothing and grab the 2 VP instead.

Also it might make your openings less straightforward.

Making openings less straightforward is good.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Baths
Post by: Davio on August 30, 2016, 10:24:43 am: I agree, especially now that we have cards like Expedition and Plan.

2 VP doesn't seem like much and often it won't be, but it may matter when you're trying to grab a small lead for the penultimate Province.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Baths
Post by: ackmondual on February 02, 2017, 01:59:26 am: Although it's a bit of a shame to not get the FULL effect of a Duration card, since some of the benefits are deferred, those are still not so bad with Baths. The neat thing is Duration cards like Bridge Troll, Enchantress, and Swamp Hag have a more passive effect that really doesn't push you towards gaining cards now, but their "durated effect" is much nicer, so just buy a card on your next turn.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Baths
Post by: Chris is me on February 02, 2017, 12:27:20 pm: In games where this never activates but you stall during greening a bit, like BM games, it's basically just a free reward for whomever is farther ahead. They can do nothing with their turns but keep building their point lead over you, while you have to buy shit to gain on them.