Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: McGarnacle on August 17, 2016, 04:24:46 am

Title: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: McGarnacle on August 17, 2016, 04:24:46 am
So I have all Dominion expansions IRL but Intrigue, Alchemy and Empires. I was planning on getting Alchemy next, but the people I play with don't think they will like it. So how good is Alchemy? Is it worth getting before Intrigue and Empires, after, or not at all?
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: AdrianHealey on August 17, 2016, 04:30:51 am
After Intrigur and Empires would be my guess.

Also: Alchemy is a bit meh imp, but there are some cool fancards that use potions that I'd
Recommend!
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: schoeggu on August 17, 2016, 05:59:34 am
Since you will get all expansions eventually it doesn't really matter which you get next.  ;)

I think the problem most people have with Alchemy is the potion cost. The cards are cool. But it's often difficult to know wheter buying a potion is justified if there there are only one or two potion-cost cards.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Tables on August 17, 2016, 06:55:47 am
Personally, I really like Alchemy, but the fact it's a small expansion puts me off a bit due to the value efficiency. I'd rather buy another £30 expansion with ~25 cards than a £20 expansion with 12. IIRC Alchemy is now in a big box with Guilds, but that doesn't help you I don't think.

I would probably get Empires and Intrigue first, and leave Alchemy for last.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Chris is me on August 17, 2016, 08:11:22 am
I would get it last. Alchemy is a small set with some great cards and a few terrible cards, and considering how small the set is, you're looking at just not that many great cards for the price. Also some people just really don't like the Potion mechanic even though it is totally fine.

Best Cards ("fun" not power): Vineyard, Scrying Poop, Alchemist, Apothecary, Apprentice
Okay Cards: Golem, University, Familiar
Trash: Transmute, Herbalist, Possession, Philosophers' Stone

I'm sure some will disagree with me but Possession is just very difficult to play with in a real game of physical card Dominion. It gets confusing, you have to constantly hand cards around or move around the table, and the game ends up generally being kind of shit.

Overall it has some great and powerful cards but I wouldn't hesitate to get every other expansion first.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: McGarnacle on August 17, 2016, 08:18:48 am
Best Cards ("fun" not power): Vineyard, Scrying Poop Pool, Alchemist, Apothecary, Apprentice

FTFY
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Chris is me on August 17, 2016, 08:34:15 am
Best Cards ("fun" not power): Vineyard, Scrying Poop Pool, Alchemist, Apothecary, Apprentice

FTFY

It was right the first time.  ;)
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Limetime on August 17, 2016, 09:49:29 am
Definitely get empires first.
Alchemy is OK before intrigue just because intrigue has so many unfun(Imo) and lackluster cards like swindler, torturer, scout, and sabatuer.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Infthitbox on August 17, 2016, 10:10:00 am
Alchemy is a pretty good set, but its not as fun or rewarding as Empires. Both are better than Intrigue.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: eHalcyon on August 17, 2016, 10:44:18 am
If Alchemy is now bundled with another expansion and you already have the other one, it may be prudent to buy Alchemy sooner rather than later if you can still find stand-alone copies.

But I'm pretty sure Tables is mistaken. Guilds and Cornucopia are bundled, not Alchemy. Alchemy is in the big box with base and Prosperity, but that's been sold alongside the normal boxes for a long time.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Roadrunner7671 on August 17, 2016, 01:29:18 pm
If you go on BGG and purchase Scout for $3.00, you can probably skip Intrigue. If you don't do that, you should go Intrigue -> Empires -> Alchemy
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Limetime on August 17, 2016, 05:28:10 pm
If you go on BGG and purchase Scout for $3.00, you can probably skip Intrigue. If you don't do that, you should go Intrigue -> Empires -> Alchemy
Wait I can buy scout for 3 instead of 4???
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: drsteelhammer on August 17, 2016, 05:56:46 pm
Tables is not mistaken, he's just not American (I think). In Germany it's bundled with Cornucopia
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Asper on August 17, 2016, 06:21:47 pm
I think Alchemy is underestimated, but has indeed some flaws. Some people don't like the potion mechanic, but i think it's refreshing and i know people who love it. However, many of the alchemy cards show that the set was rushed. It's infamous for slow to resolve cards like Scrying Pool, and total losers like Transmute hurt more in a small set. And then it has one of the most hated cards in the game, Possession. I personally like most of the remaining cards, but you only get so much for your money. Either way, i think Dominion without Alchemy isn't complete.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: mameluke on August 17, 2016, 06:37:17 pm
Apothecary and Apprentice are very cool, and Golem seems correctly priced for its power. Alchemist is fine. But the rest of the cards range from not-fun-at-all to why-buy-this.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: funkdoc on August 17, 2016, 06:43:37 pm
yea, alchemy is the most "better online than IRL" set by a mile.  easily explains why it gets the worst reviews on BGG and the like
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 17, 2016, 08:50:57 pm
Online Alchemy is fine minus Transmute and Possession.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: tripwire on August 17, 2016, 09:21:07 pm
Why does everybody hate possession so much? I think it can be a ton of fun. I even like the sloggy games where both players stop improving their decks out of fear of helping the other player.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Asper on August 17, 2016, 11:04:13 pm
Why does everybody hate possession so much? I think it can be a ton of fun. I even like the sloggy games where both players stop improving their decks out of fear of helping the other player.

I guess it's the whole "stealing my stuff" aspect. But it's also slow, as each takes a full turn, and it has weird rules. The worst part in my opinion is that it comes close to being an attack you can't defend against and which only hits one player. One of those cards that make Possession feel like an attack, Alchemist, is even in the same set.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Limetime on August 18, 2016, 12:59:10 am
Why does everybody hate possession so much? I think it can be a ton of fun. I even like the sloggy games where both players stop improving their decks out of fear of helping the other player.

I guess it's the whole "stealing my stuff" aspect. But it's also slow, as each takes a full turn, and it has weird rules. The worst part in my opinion is that it comes close to being an attack you can't defend against and which only hits one player. One of those cards that make Possession feel like an attack, Alchemist, is even in the same set.
Another also in the same set is apothecary.
Also trash for benefit gets insanely unbalanced(apprentice)
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: mameluke on August 18, 2016, 01:02:03 am
One of the more frustrating things about Possession is that it's ridiculous with Throne Room/King's Court, etc. There is no card that lets you take more than one turn in a row with your own deck without severe limitations, and never do you get more than two, and yet if you King's Court a Possession you get to take four turns in a row.

Even without TR or KC it's extremely frustrating if someone buys more than one and there are villages involved.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Chris is me on August 18, 2016, 08:13:14 am
Why does everybody hate possession so much? I think it can be a ton of fun. I even like the sloggy games where both players stop improving their decks out of fear of helping the other player.

It's already annoying in the simulator, but it's even more frustrating trying to juggle multiple hands and multiple decks in person. Since this is asking about in person expansions, this colored my opinion appropriately. Also, those sloggy games take "literally forever" in person.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: drsteelhammer on August 18, 2016, 11:08:53 am
Alchemy cards are really cool. Since Potions have such a great opportunity cost, you want generally more than 1-2 of them. This is why they are so many fun nonterminals in there. Possession is also fine, you just need to get over the fact that it's not "your" and "their" deck anymore. Stop being so possessive, guys.

The only problem is that there are three garbage cards in a small expansion. Philo Stone and Herbalist are kind of cute ideas but they rarely work. And if Pstone works it's not even that fun. Unfortunately, Transmute is just pure garbage that I refuse to believe was ever playtested.

So the big problem is that you get like nine kingdom cards which is a lot compared to the other expansions if it actually costs 20 bucks. But Apothecary, Alchemist, Vineyard, Golem, University and Possession are definitely among the greatest Dominion cards you'll definitely want to get at some point.

To anyone who doesn't want to play with one Potion card at a time: Please challenge me or anyone else that is Iso level 20+ to a match where only I get to buy a Potion, and see what those cards are able to do on their own.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: trivialknot on August 18, 2016, 12:04:33 pm
My boyfriend and I usually ban Alchemy, and always ban Possession.  The problem is that the theme is chaining actions, but chaining actions is slow to resolve.  Apothecary, Alchemist, Golem, Scrying Pool, they're all slow.  Philosopher's Stone is slow too because you have to count your deck.  Back when we played with Alchemy, I found it particularly frustrating because I was newer to Dominion than my boyfriend and one-sided slow games are the worst.

Lately I've been watching Twitch streams, and they've given me a new appreciation for Alchemy, and I wouldn't mind playing a few more games with them IRL.  However, I've observed that Possession leads to more resignations than basically any other card.  It seems that Possession is too slow even online.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: theJester on August 29, 2016, 12:15:10 pm
It's the only expansion I haven't bought for Online Dominion, and for a good reason: good part of its cards are plainly unfun to play with. Scyring Pool turns take forever to resolve, Possession breaks several fundamental DOminion concepts and is one of most hated cards, Familiar is way to swingy compared to how powerful it is (if you fail to connect 3$+P on your 2nd shuffle and your opponent does, it's basically gg already), Transmute is just plain bad most of the time.

If there was any way to buy cards individually rather than buying the whole set, I would have been happy to purchase only Vineyard, Appretnice and maybe a few others and be done with it.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Fragasnap on August 31, 2016, 07:04:57 am
I really like Alchemy from a designer's perspective. It manages to make its Potion cost an interesting limiter to the acquisition of a card, in addition to meaningfully bifurcating the decision tree of a Kingdom and infusing its unique flavor into the game with as few as 1 or 2 cards.

As a player, I could live without Alchemy.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: AdrianHealey on August 31, 2016, 01:03:29 pm
I would get alchemy, just because I have a bunch of fan made cards that I took from different sets online that work great, in additio to some of the 'real' cards. But the bad cards in the set are still bad.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: NoMoreFun on September 01, 2016, 01:27:52 am
Transmute is a bad card,  Possession is annoying and Philosophers Stone is way too much effort IRL and not particularly strong, even in fat decks where it should be strong.
If you like games with lots of Actions then University, Golem and Scrying Pool are great, but otherwise they're annoying. Vineyard is a great addition. Alchemist and Apothecary make good use of the potion mechanic but all the shuffling can be annoying IRL. Herbalist isn't the best card but it's what a $2 card should look like IMO (not strong, but useful to pick up in quite a few games due to the +buy, and it has some great combos), and it fits the set. Apprentice is a unique and useful card and the only Alchemy card you wouldn't think twice about using in full random kingdoms.

IMO 3 duds out of 12 cards, which is a better ratio than the base set but not any other set.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Davio on September 01, 2016, 07:47:48 am
Alchemy offers less bang for buck than many other expansions, maybe the least of all.

Philosopher's Stone is blegh, Possession is not much fun, Transmute is weak, so you're essentially paying $20+ for 9 cards.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Asper on September 01, 2016, 12:11:05 pm
Unpopular Opinion Potion: Philosopher's Stone is my favourite Alchemy card because it doesn't cause me to sit through hours of my opponents chaining actions.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Chris is me on September 01, 2016, 12:30:11 pm
Unpopular Opinion Potion: Philosopher's Stone is my favourite Alchemy card because it doesn't cause me to sit through hours of my opponents chaining actions.

Just hours of them counting their deck and discard every time they play it.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Asper on September 01, 2016, 12:35:38 pm
Unpopular Opinion Potion: Philosopher's Stone is my favourite Alchemy card because it doesn't cause me to sit through hours of my opponents chaining actions.

Just hours of them counting their deck and discard every time they play it.

My friends are generally capable of remembering the number they just counted when they play two Philosopher's Stones. Some are even clever enough to say "Well, they were worth $4 last turn, so i guess you trust me when i say i can afford a Province with these two".
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Awaclus on September 01, 2016, 04:51:09 pm
how good is Alchemy?

Turns out it's preeeetty good.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on September 06, 2016, 05:59:34 am
Alchemy is probably the worst Dominion expansion.

But you should probably still get it at some point. The worst pizza is still pretty tasty.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Awaclus on September 06, 2016, 08:51:11 am
The worst pizza is still pretty tasty.

Unless you've had free pizza recently.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: SkyHard on September 06, 2016, 08:56:13 am
Unpopular Opinion Potion: Philosopher's Stone is my favourite Alchemy card because it doesn't cause me to sit through hours of my opponents chaining actions.

Just hours of them counting their deck and discard every time they play it.

My friends are generally capable of remembering the number they just counted when they play two Philosopher's Stones. Some are even clever enough to say "Well, they were worth $4 last turn, so i guess you trust me when i say i can afford a Province with these two".

I would not trust them! Why? Because it depends on the number of cards in hand and played, since "You only count your deck and discard pile, not your hand or cards in play or set aside cards.".
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Asper on September 06, 2016, 11:14:49 am
Unpopular Opinion Potion: Philosopher's Stone is my favourite Alchemy card because it doesn't cause me to sit through hours of my opponents chaining actions.

Just hours of them counting their deck and discard every time they play it.

My friends are generally capable of remembering the number they just counted when they play two Philosopher's Stones. Some are even clever enough to say "Well, they were worth $4 last turn, so i guess you trust me when i say i can afford a Province with these two".

I would not trust them! Why? Because it depends on the number of cards in hand and played, since "You only count your deck and discard pile, not your hand or cards in play or set aside cards.".

I will have to keep that in mind the next time i see somebody play a Philosopher's Stone engine, where people actually draw and play cards. Which might take some time, because PS is anti-engine and it would be a pretty dumb idea. Hey, at least when you draw your deck, there's less to count, right? Most PS games i experienced were "I have one buy, two PS, buy a Province". At some point it just doesn't matter anymore, even with more buys. You just know he has that money. Seriously, i can just say, i never ever felt i had to wait long for a PS turn to end, but i have had agonizingly slow Scrying Pool games. Even if you would actually count your deck once per turn, that's still loads faster than revealing, drawing and playing it.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Davio on September 06, 2016, 01:33:44 pm
Alchemy is probably the worst Dominion expansion.

But you should probably still get it at some point. The worst pizza is still pretty tasty.
Well, it just has a lot of variance, also because it's so small.

I like Apothecary a lot, University is pretty fun too, Scrying Pool is manageable, Golem is useful from time to time.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on September 06, 2016, 01:48:18 pm
Alchemy is probably the worst Dominion expansion.

But you should probably still get it at some point. The worst pizza is still pretty tasty.
Well, it just has a lot of variance, also because it's so small.

I like Apothecary a lot, University is pretty fun too, Scrying Pool is manageable, Golem is useful from time to time.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Alchemy personally, I'm just saying that it's probably the worst one you can buy. (I actually prefer Alchemy over Seaside and maybe Cornucopia, although that's a close call.) The reason being the high variance and small size. University, Apothecary and Golem are all among my favorite cards, Scrying Pool would be up there too if it weren't for its unfortunate tendency to make games last more than an hour.
Title: Re: How good is Alchemy?
Post by: ackmondual on March 05, 2017, 03:00:56 am
As much as it pains me to say this, I would prioritize Alchemy last, if not lower.  While I really did enjoy playing Alchemy when it first came out, the later sets do put it to shame.  I do recall one Dom. regular got frustrated b/c when we randomize, when a potion cost card came out, we'd have to ensure there was at least 1 other Potion cost card!  This happened often as back then, Alchemy was the latest and greatest in Dominion.

My boyfriend and I usually ban Alchemy, and always ban Possession.  The problem is that the theme is chaining actions, but chaining actions is slow to resolve.  Apothecary, Alchemist, Golem, Scrying Pool, they're all slow.  Philosopher's Stone is slow too because you have to count your deck.  Back when we played with Alchemy, I found it particularly frustrating because I was newer to Dominion than my boyfriend and one-sided slow games are the worst.

Lately I've been watching Twitch streams, and they've given me a new appreciation for Alchemy, and I wouldn't mind playing a few more games with them IRL.  However, I've observed that Possession leads to more resignations than basically any other card.  It seems that Possession is too slow even online.

Heh... I'd have to ask that group again, but they've been refusing to play with Alchemy as well.  Basically... "So you guys bought Dominion: Alchemy so that you can... not play it?"

Why does everybody hate possession so much? I think it can be a ton of fun. I even like the sloggy games where both players stop improving their decks out of fear of helping the other player.

It's already annoying in the simulator, but it's even more frustrating trying to juggle multiple hands and multiple decks in person. Since this is asking about in person expansions, this colored my opinion appropriately. Also, those sloggy games take "literally forever" in person.
Also annoying to implement, as I hear many digital version held off on that completely, or it was delayed for no small amount of time