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Dominion => Dominion: Nocturne Previews => Dominion: Renaissance Previews => Dominion General Discussion => Empires Previews => Topic started by: Donald X. on May 10, 2016, 11:59:38 am

Title: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Donald X. on May 10, 2016, 11:59:38 am
Today, six cards, but only three piles.

(http://i.imgur.com/tLHwN2R.png?w=640&h=326)

So how do these work exactly? The top cards are paired with the bottom ones. Each pile has 5 copies of the first (cheaper) card, then 5 copies of the second (more expensive) card. You can only buy/gain the card on top; if you want the other card, you have to dig it out. There are special randomizers for these piles, that list both cards and have art showing both things. You will see those when the set comes out; the six actual cards will have to do for today. And uh some things in the game care about stats for a pile, and well they go by the randomizer, which usually matches the top card. Young Witch can have Gladiator/Fortune as its bane (and then both cards will do the trick), Training lets you put your +$1 token on the Catapult/Rocks pile (and then both cards give +$1), and so on.

Gladiator has a cute interaction with the player to your left. If you manage to show a card they don't have, you get +$1, hooray, but you also eat a Gladiator from the pile. That way you are likely to eventually uncover Fortune. Which doubles your money, yeeha. And may come with some Golds; a reward for the players with Gladiators. If you were wondering how much doubling your money was worth, well, about $16, but you don't need it all in advance. And it's not cumulative because even at ~$16 that was too much. It can help pay for itself, I will just point out that part.

Settlers lets you get back a Copper; try not to draw it right after shuffling. And Bustling Village gets back a Settlers which gets back a Copper. And it gives you +3 Actions; that's just how Bustling it is.

At long last, we have the Dominion Catapult. Well it's been a great run guys. And it doesn't even let you throw something at the board. Catapult hurts the other players based on what you throw I mean trash; if you trash a Treasure they discard, if you trash a card for $3+ they get Cursed, and if a card has both attributes they both discard and get a Curse, yeeha. It's like a rodeo in here. As it happens Rocks is a Treasure costing $4, and does something useful when gained or trashed; it's just the perfect thing to Catapult. And it's called Rocks! I couldn't help myself.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on May 10, 2016, 12:01:41 pm
Anybody else hate the gladiator/fortune art?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Watno on May 10, 2016, 12:06:07 pm
Earlier than yesterday after all.


That fortune sure costs a fortune.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: ben_king on May 10, 2016, 12:07:34 pm
Anybody else hate the gladiator/fortune art?

Nothing against Kelli Stakenas as a person, but her other Dominion art is among my least favorite (Candlestick Maker, Masterpiece, Royal Carriage).

I do like the other 4 we got to see today though, especially the art for Rocks (creating a compelling picture of rocks isn't an easy thing to do!).
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Awaclus on May 10, 2016, 12:08:35 pm
Isn't Rocks just strictly worse than Copper?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: LostPhoenix on May 10, 2016, 12:09:00 pm
I am loving the themes of the new cards.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Beyond Awesome on May 10, 2016, 12:10:08 pm
Earlier than yesterday after all.


That fortune sure costs a fortune.

But doubling your money is very, very good. It's more like $8 note and then $8 on your next turn, but easier to pay off since you can double your money.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: drsteelhammer on May 10, 2016, 12:10:22 pm
I can put my Adventures token on an action supply pile and still get the benefits when I play the treasures, that's something new.

Also I'm happy to play my Settler/Bustling Villages online, otherwise that probably takes longer than Hunting Party stacks.

Most importantly: Will SCSN like Catapult cause it does something nice with those garbage Silvers or will he like it less since it makes silver less uselss?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Beyond Awesome on May 10, 2016, 12:11:22 pm
Isn't Rocks just strictly worse than Copper?

It gains silvers
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: drsteelhammer on May 10, 2016, 12:12:31 pm
Isn't Rocks just strictly worse than Copper?

Not if catapult is in the kingdom (cough)

This makes a lot of fan cards easier who relied on specific things to be in the kingdom, split-piles were the solution all along!
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Joseph2302 on May 10, 2016, 12:12:41 pm
Isn't Rocks just strictly worse than Copper?
No because of the on gain/trash effect. Also, as it costs $4, it's better than Copper with TfB cards (salvager), and also protects against knights (by getting trashed instead of something better).

PPE: Lots
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on May 10, 2016, 12:13:41 pm
Isn't Rocks just strictly worse than Copper?
Amazing how expensive rocks are these days. I need to stop buying silver bars of Ebay, I'm missing out on the real money-maker here.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: tastor on May 10, 2016, 12:14:11 pm
Isn't Rocks just strictly worse than Copper?

Without context maybe. Obviously it gains you Silvers and the idea is that you are loading your Catapault which is the first 5 cards of that stack. So it is a card that you will want to trash to Catapault because it gives you a Silver and your opponent a Curse and a discard.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Watno on May 10, 2016, 12:17:27 pm
Settlers/Bustling Village seems pretty strong
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: assemble_me on May 10, 2016, 12:17:34 pm
Catapult rocks.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Accatitippi on May 10, 2016, 12:20:17 pm
Anybody else hate the gladiator/fortune art?

Well, "Still life with coins and feet" is not exactly what I was expecting.

I don't like the style and the colors, but I could get over it.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: werothegreat on May 10, 2016, 12:21:01 pm
I'm guessing I can't play Actions in my Buy phase if my +1 Action token is on Rocks?  But if I buy a Villa, I will have that extra Action when I revert to my Action phase?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: J Reggie on May 10, 2016, 12:21:10 pm
If I put my +1 action token on catapult, play a rocks in my buy phase, and then buy a villa, will I be able to use that action from Rocks?

Edit: ninja'd by wero
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: singletee on May 10, 2016, 12:22:03 pm
Two soldiers stand at the foot of their catapult.
One makes his report, wiping the sweat from his brow.
"We've run out of ammo! The rocks we brought with, our ill-gotten gains, even our precious silver pieces!"
The other man thinks for a while, then breaks into a sly grin.
"Marcus," he says, "catch us some rats."

Also that's totally a trebuchet.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Marcory on May 10, 2016, 12:24:36 pm
Bustling Village is essentially a Level 2 City, with a 3rd Action instead of a Buy, when have a Settlers and Copper in your discard pile. Sounds cwazy.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: mail-mi on May 10, 2016, 12:28:25 pm
Hey wait a minute...

Quote
Clerk: Action, $2  ★★★★☆
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Copper from it and put it into your hand.

LFN, did you get to suggest a card?!
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: LostPhoenix on May 10, 2016, 12:35:39 pm
Time to catapult my IGG
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: faust on May 10, 2016, 12:39:59 pm
Bustling Village is essentially a Level 2 City, with a 3rd Action instead of a Buy, when have a Settlers and Copper in your discard pile. Sounds cwazy.

Well, it balances itself a bit in the sense that if you draw your deck, you usually won't have stuff in your discard pile.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: LastFootnote on May 10, 2016, 12:44:19 pm
Hey wait a minute...

Quote
Clerk: Action, $2  ★★★★☆
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Copper from it and put it into your hand.

LFN, did you get to suggest a card?!

Yes, Settlers is Clerk. It found a happy home as one half of a split pile in Empires.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Witherweaver on May 10, 2016, 12:45:22 pm
'We're Settlers; we settle on getting Copper for economy.'

(http://vid.adlala.com/directv/the-settlers-are-providers-commercial/poster.jpg)
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Donald X. on May 10, 2016, 12:46:12 pm
I'm guessing I can't play Actions in my Buy phase if my +1 Action token is on Rocks?  But if I buy a Villa, I will have that extra Action when I revert to my Action phase?
Yes.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: LastFootnote on May 10, 2016, 12:46:51 pm
Also I'm happy to play my Settler/Bustling Villages online, otherwise that probably takes longer than Hunting Party stacks.

No, not nearly. The first time in a turn you look through your discard pile, you can just put all your Coppers and Settlers on top.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: singletee on May 10, 2016, 12:47:31 pm
What happens if you play Gladiator with an empty hand?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Beyond Awesome on May 10, 2016, 12:48:35 pm
I really want to call them Settlers of Catan.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Witherweaver on May 10, 2016, 12:48:40 pm
Isn't Rocks just strictly worse than Copper?

It gains silvers

Copper that junks you, yeah.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: AJD on May 10, 2016, 12:49:45 pm
Young Witch can have Gladiator/Fortune as its bane (and then both cards will do the trick)

Well, huh. "Cards from that pile are Bane cards," Young Witch says. So they are.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: werothegreat on May 10, 2016, 12:53:15 pm
What happens if you play Gladiator with an empty hand?

Shit diddly!
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Titandrake on May 10, 2016, 12:53:45 pm
Isn't Rocks just strictly worse than Copper?

It gains silvers

Copper that junks you, yeah.

Except in this game, you have a Catapult to turn that "junk" into a discard attack and Curse giver, so I'm not convinced gaining extra Silvers is bad if you've bought Catapult.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Witherweaver on May 10, 2016, 12:55:46 pm
Quote
Each pile has 5 copies of the first (cheaper) card, then 5 copies of the second (more expensive) card. You can only buy/gain the card on top; if you want the other card, you have to dig it out. There are special randomizers for these piles, that list both cards and have art showing both things.

Sorry if I missed this, but to clarify, by "...then 5 copies," it means that when setting up, the five copies of the cheap card are always on top, and the five copies of the expensive card are always on the bottom?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Witherweaver on May 10, 2016, 12:55:57 pm
Isn't Rocks just strictly worse than Copper?

It gains silvers

Copper that junks you, yeah.

Except in this game, you have a Catapult to turn that "junk" into a discard attack and Curse giver, so I'm not convinced gaining extra Silvers is bad if you've bought Catapult.

What a time to be alive.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: crj on May 10, 2016, 12:58:02 pm
I do like the artwork for Bustling Village, but am I the only person who feels that village ought to look a little... busier?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: LastFootnote on May 10, 2016, 12:59:48 pm
What happens if you play Gladiator with an empty hand?

You get +$1 and trash a Gladiator from the Supply. No joke.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: pinkymadigan on May 10, 2016, 01:07:21 pm
What happens if you play Gladiator with an empty hand?

You get +$1 and trash a Gladiator from the Supply. No joke.

Dominion is beloved by pedants everywhere for this reason.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: werothegreat on May 10, 2016, 01:10:58 pm
What happens if you play Gladiator with an empty hand?

You get +$1 and trash a Gladiator from the Supply. No joke.

Because the player to your left failed to reveal a copy of... nothing?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Orange on May 10, 2016, 01:11:36 pm
I do like the artwork for Bustling Village, but am I the only person who feels that village ought to look a little... busier?

Do NOT Google "busty villager" when image searching to make a FYP "bustier/busier" joke
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: pinkymadigan on May 10, 2016, 01:18:13 pm
What happens if you play Gladiator with an empty hand?

You get +$1 and trash a Gladiator from the Supply. No joke.

Because the player to your left failed to reveal a copy of... nothing?
You couldn't do part of the instructions, and neither could (s)he, because there was nothing to match. Pedantry at its best.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Hugovj on May 10, 2016, 01:22:25 pm
At long last, we have the Dominion Catapult. Well it's been a great run guys. And it doesn't even let you throw something at the board.

1/10, would not play again. :'(
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: eHalcyon on May 10, 2016, 01:24:00 pm
I predicted some things from this, hooray!

On Split Piles:

It'll be interesting to see how it compares to Knights.  With Knights, they all share one major effect (The trashing attack) and then vary extra bonuses.  But with just two different cards in a pile, you can design a bigger difference but with closer interaction.  I wonder if these piles will be shuffled or if they'll be specifically ordered (5/5, or interleaved).

Not the most daring prediction, but I'll take it.  The cards are very different but work closely together.  And my question is answered; they are specifically ordered 5/5.

Yesterday I gave some thought to what it would mean to have a mixed debt cost.

New thought for fan cards (and maybe some official cards that are yet to be revealed): a cheap debt card would be a lot like a regular cost card, because you wouldn't often need to put off paying for it.  But it would have an important distinction - you can't gain it with cost-based gainers like Workshop, and you can't reduce its cost (unless there is a new card that does that specifically).  You could also mix regular coin costs and debt costs to make something that essentially reduces in cost to a positive minimum.

Fortune probably wasn't designed specifically to be a card where you can essentially reduce its cost to $8 and no less, but that's how it works out.

Gladiator sounds like a strong payload.  Played well, it shouldn't be too tough to win the mini-game and make it a cheap terminal gold.  It seems like something you wouldn't want it too early (otherwise you may get stuck revealing Estates and Coppers which are easy to block), but you can't wait too long because there are only 5 in the pile and they may get trashed by other Gladiators.  Shelters make it easier to win the mini-game.  Then, Fortune is huge.  It's not as expensive as it looks since it provides so much money itself, if your deck can draw into it.  I wonder how often it will be worthwhile to pick up a second one, even though they don't stack.

Settlers is a Peddler as long as you've got Copper in your discard.  Bustling Village is a City with an extra action if you've got a Settler in your discard.  That's really good... but it relies on having those things in your discard, so not the most reliable.  I'm sure some people will not like this dependence on shuffle luck, but oh well.  Since Settlers are a lot like Peddler, I expect that they'll be bought pretty quickly in many games.  Maybe there will be some trepidation as players waver on buying the last Settlers and exposing the Bustling Villages.  OTOH, maybe not, since Bustling Village is better the more Settlers you have.

My first thought on Catapult is that it joins Swindler and Ambassador as another $3 junker.  It requires $3 fodder to do so, but is otherwise more reliable at cursing than either of them.  But the most common attack from early Catapults is going to be the discard attack, which works with Copper.  That alone will make it better than Militia a lot of the time, I think.  You make $1 less, but you get to trash a card.  Worth.  The trashing aspect means that it should be compared to other cheap trashers like Trade Route and Forager.  With the bundled attack, I think Catapult will hold up well.  Rocks is hilarious.  Combined with Catapult, it's 3 pieces of optimal fodder at an affordable price.  You can buy Rocks to set up a Silver for your Catapult next turn.  When you play Catapult twice in the same turn, using Rocks immediately provides the extra fodder for the second one.  Rocks is mostly terrible without Catapults though.  Also, it reminds me a lot of Masterpiece, which is humourously also a good source of Catapult fodder.

I want to give a shout-out to Co0kieL0rd for this:

Hey, this is not the "Really intriguing, kinda interesting card ideas" thread! I will counteract this elaborate balderdash with a really bad card idea:

Quote
Catapult
Cost: $4
Types: Action/Attack
Trash any number of Rocks from your hand. For each Rock trashed, each other player trashes a card from their hand.
When you buy this, gain 5 Rocks from the Rock pile.

Quote
Rock
Cost: $0*
Type: Rock
It's a Rock. (This is not in the Supply.)

Also, Donald mentioned throwing stuff at the board, so I count this as a prediction:

Knife Thrower
$4 - Action
Choose a card in your hand.  Standing 2 feet away from the playing area, throw the card at the Supply.  Gain a copy of one Supply card that it touches.  Trash the thrown card.

The RBCI thread: your source for Dominion inside information.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: m_knox on May 10, 2016, 01:29:40 pm
So, buying a Rocks with Watchtower in hand can end up with two Silvers on top of the deck, right? Or not?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: LastFootnote on May 10, 2016, 01:32:16 pm
So, buying a Rocks with Watchtower in hand can end up with two Silvers on top of the deck, right? Or not?

Yes.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Kirian on May 10, 2016, 01:34:28 pm
So:

If Fortune is Swindled, I get another Fortune or nothing.
If Fortune is hit by Saboteur, I can gain something costing at most $2 less than $8+D8, which could include City Quarter, or Gold.
If I have six Highways in play, I can Remodel a City Quarter into a Fortune.

Are those all correct?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on May 10, 2016, 01:34:52 pm
I absolutely love these cards!

Fortune looks pretty sick, but then it's also really expensive. I love those cards, we needed more of those spendy ones. Gladiator is meh but at least it gets you closer to Fortune.

Settlers and Bustling Village are some awesome engine cards, finally the +3 Actions other than Crossroads (and CotR sorta) we were waiting for. And it decreases the need for Copper trashing in engines.

Anything that combos with Feodum, combos with Catapult. Trash a Silver with your Catapult, and each opponent gets to discard AND take a purple. Too bad a hand with Catapult + 4x Silver doesn't get to Province...

Anyway, love it. <3 Can't wait to play Empires now after not being too enthusiastic yesterday!
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: timchen on May 10, 2016, 01:35:11 pm
Pretty interesting concepts here. It seems the mechanics is to introduce some power creep into the game but at the same time constrain them by make them not getting their full power early game. In addition sometimes if your opponent can stop those card from functioning by not following suit. Kinda like Cities actually, but with more flavor.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: LastFootnote on May 10, 2016, 01:37:39 pm
So:

If Fortune is Swindled, I get another Fortune or nothing.
If Fortune is hit by Saboteur, I can gain something costing at most $2 less than $8+D8, which could include City Quarter, or Gold.
If I have six Highways in play, I can Remodel a City Quarter into a Fortune.

Are those all correct?

Yes.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: werothegreat on May 10, 2016, 01:41:12 pm
So:

If Fortune is Swindled, I get another Fortune or nothing.
If Fortune is hit by Saboteur, I can gain something costing at most $2 less than $8+D8, which could include City Quarter, or Gold.
If I have six Highways in play, I can Remodel a City Quarter into a Fortune.

Are those all correct?

Yes.

Swindled Fortunes give you extra nothing if a Gladiator was returned to the Supply.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: eHalcyon on May 10, 2016, 01:43:30 pm
So, buying a Rocks with Watchtower in hand can end up with two Silvers on top of the deck, right? Or not?

Right.  When you gain Rocks, it triggers the on-gain on Rocks and also the Watchtower reaction.  You decide what order to resolve them in.  No matter what, you're going to gain the Silver from Rocks.  If you also use Watchtower to trash the Rocks, it will trigger the Rocks' on-trash and gain you a second Silver on top of your deck.  You can also use Watchtower to trash either of those Silvers, but that's usually a bad idea.  You probably don't want to trash the Rocks with Watchtower either, since it's also good Catapult fodder.  If you weren't after fodder, you probably shouldn't be buying Rocks (edge cases: emptying the pile, Fairgrounds).

Oh man.  Fairgrounds gets another buff from split piles.  Did somebody mention that when the expansion was announced?  I don't remember, but this is a thing.

Anything that combos with Feodum, combos with Catapult. Trash a Silver with your Catapult, and each opponent gets to discard AND take a purple. Too bad a hand with Catapult + 4x Silver doesn't get to Province...


Well, Catapult + 4x Silver does get to Province.  Just don't play the Catapult.  Great point about Feodum; it's another great source of Catapult fodder.  Why throw rocks when you can throw an entirely piece of property?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: werothegreat on May 10, 2016, 01:45:17 pm
The Silvers from Rocks go into your hand if it's not your Buy phase.  :)
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Donald X. on May 10, 2016, 01:51:18 pm
Quote
Each pile has 5 copies of the first (cheaper) card, then 5 copies of the second (more expensive) card. You can only buy/gain the card on top; if you want the other card, you have to dig it out. There are special randomizers for these piles, that list both cards and have art showing both things.

Sorry if I missed this, but to clarify, by "...then 5 copies," it means that when setting up, the five copies of the cheap card are always on top, and the five copies of the expensive card are always on the bottom?
Yes.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Gubump on May 10, 2016, 01:53:21 pm
If I play a Gladiator and trash a Gladiator from the Supply, could I then react with a Market Square? My inclination is to say no, since you never gained the trashed Gladiator.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: LastFootnote on May 10, 2016, 01:55:07 pm
If I play a Gladiator and trash a Gladiator from the Supply, could I then react with a Market Square? My inclination is to say no, since you never gained the trashed Gladiator.

No, because Market Square reacts to one of "your cards" being trashed. If Market Square instead said "When you trash a card", then it would work.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: eHalcyon on May 10, 2016, 01:55:38 pm
The Silvers from Rocks go into your hand if it's not your Buy phase.  :)

But Watchtower means you still can end up with the 2 Silvers on your deck.  m_knox only asked if that was a possibility; of course it's not the only one.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: werothegreat on May 10, 2016, 01:56:20 pm
If I play a Gladiator and trash a Gladiator from the Supply, could I then react with a Market Square? My inclination is to say no, since you never gained the trashed Gladiator.

Correct.  Market Square says "when one of your cards is trashed" not "when you trash a card".

Ninja'd by slow f.ds load times.  :(
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: LastFootnote on May 10, 2016, 01:57:33 pm
My first thought on Catapult is that it joins Swindler and Ambassador as another $3 junker.  It requires $3 fodder to do so, but is otherwise more reliable at cursing than either of them.  But the most common attack from early Catapults is going to be the discard attack, which works with Copper.  That alone will make it better than Militia a lot of the time, I think.  You make $1 less, but you get to trash a card.

You make $2 less, since you had to trash a Copper from your hand that you otherwise could have played.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: GendoIkari on May 10, 2016, 01:59:03 pm
I've never been one to care about theme in Dominion or any other game; but I can say without a doubt that Catapult + Rocks is by far my favorite card in terms of theme.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Seprix on May 10, 2016, 01:59:21 pm
What happens if you buy all of the Gladiators, buy a Fortune, Ambassador back Gladiators, and then Ambassador back a Fortune? Do you put the Fortune on top, or do you put it below the Gladiators?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: LastFootnote on May 10, 2016, 02:02:56 pm
What happens if you buy all of the Gladiators, buy a Fortune, Ambassador back Gladiators, and then Ambassador back a Fortune? Do you put the Fortune on top, or do you put it below the Gladiators?

You put the Fortune on top.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: jsh357 on May 10, 2016, 02:05:25 pm
Just throwing this out there (sorry if this is playtester bias in advance): In spite of art, potential balance curveballs, cost, and everything, Fortune is probably my favorite card in this set and my favorite Treasure in the game. I love the "simple but nuts" appeal of simply doubling one's money. It's great stuff.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: werothegreat on May 10, 2016, 02:10:49 pm
Just throwing this out there (sorry if this is playtester bias in advance): In spite of art, potential balance curveballs, cost, and everything, Fortune is probably my favorite card in this set and my favorite Treasure in the game. I love the "simple but nuts" appeal of simply doubling one's money. It's great stuff.

I think the Gladiator art is fine.  Probably Stakenas' best.  Fortune is okay.  Maybe not exactly what you might think of when you think of a FORTUNE (Scrooge McDuck vault or something), but I think it fits for what a Gladiator would consider a Fortune.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Voltaire on May 10, 2016, 02:19:05 pm
Oh man.  Fairgrounds gets another buff from split piles.  Did somebody mention that when the expansion was announced?  I don't remember, but this is a thing.

I played a lot of Empires + Cornucopia during playtesting for just this reason - that set loves split piles (more variety).
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: jsh357 on May 10, 2016, 02:19:48 pm
Just throwing this out there (sorry if this is playtester bias in advance): In spite of art, potential balance curveballs, cost, and everything, Fortune is probably my favorite card in this set and my favorite Treasure in the game. I love the "simple but nuts" appeal of simply doubling one's money. It's great stuff.

Oh, and it's also totally hilarious when you draw fortune on a hand with barely any money.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Burning Skull on May 10, 2016, 02:20:05 pm
I think the Gladiator art is fine.

lol. Sorry, wero
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Watno on May 10, 2016, 02:21:28 pm
"Hey, can you show a Trusty Steed as well? I don't think you can"
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: eHalcyon on May 10, 2016, 02:24:29 pm
My first thought on Catapult is that it joins Swindler and Ambassador as another $3 junker.  It requires $3 fodder to do so, but is otherwise more reliable at cursing than either of them.  But the most common attack from early Catapults is going to be the discard attack, which works with Copper.  That alone will make it better than Militia a lot of the time, I think.  You make $1 less, but you get to trash a card.

You make $2 less, since you had to trash a Copper from your hand that you otherwise could have played.

Yeah, I knew that and wasn't sure whether to mention it, but I usually don't think of trashing Copper in terms of "-$X" so I left it out. :)
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: trivialknot on May 10, 2016, 02:28:00 pm
Previously, we figured out how to get infinite money with Villa.  Now we can get twice that with Fortune!
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Seprix on May 10, 2016, 02:37:38 pm
Just throwing this out there (sorry if this is playtester bias in advance): In spite of art, potential balance curveballs, cost, and everything, Fortune is probably my favorite card in this set and my favorite Treasure in the game. I love the "simple but nuts" appeal of simply doubling one's money. It's great stuff.

I think the Gladiator art is fine.  Probably Stakenas' best.  Fortune is okay.  Maybe not exactly what you might think of when you think of a FORTUNE (Scrooge McDuck vault or something), but I think it fits for what a Gladiator would consider a Fortune.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/tuqt68q27zwl0qx/Hoard.jpg?dl=0)
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Willvon on May 10, 2016, 02:52:37 pm
Anybody else hate the gladiator/fortune art?

Well, "Still life with coins and feet" is not exactly what I was expecting.

I don't like the style and the colors, but I could get over it.

It looks like Fortune is a continuation of the Gladiator picture. The fortune that he won is at his feet.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Ankenaut on May 10, 2016, 03:05:54 pm
The split-pile mechanic is great, especially on a pile that otherwise was never going to be in danger of running out anyway. Why not make the bottom  half something that synergizes well with the top half? I want to try a variant where you make split piles out of existing cards.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: SevenSpirits on May 10, 2016, 04:29:43 pm
Did the split pile mechanic contribute to Inheritance taking an actual copy of the card from the pile rather than putting a token on the pile like the other stuff from Adventures?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: LastFootnote on May 10, 2016, 04:35:45 pm
Did the split pile mechanic contribute to Inheritance taking an actual copy of the card from the pile rather than putting a token on the pile like the other stuff from Adventures?

Inheritance had to be that way for Knights and Ruins.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: SevenSpirits on May 10, 2016, 04:46:03 pm
Thanks, I am only 90% convinced though. It was surely an option to just have Inheritance not be usable on action card piles that hold multiple different cards. But the more such piles that exist or will exist, the less appealing that resolution becomes. So I'm still wondering if their future existence was an influence.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: faust on May 10, 2016, 04:54:12 pm
Fun fact: with enough Ambassadors and patience, you can reorder split piles any way you like.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: LastFootnote on May 10, 2016, 05:00:53 pm
Thanks, I am only 90% convinced though. It was surely an option to just have Inheritance not be usable on action card piles that hold multiple different cards. But the more such piles that exist or will exist, the less appealing that resolution becomes. So I'm still wondering if their future existence was an influence.

Well then it sounds to me like you are fishing for information that belongs in the Secret History. Nice try, bucko! I'm on to you!
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Donald X. on May 10, 2016, 05:08:36 pm
Thanks, I am only 90% convinced though. It was surely an option to just have Inheritance not be usable on action card piles that hold multiple different cards. But the more such piles that exist or will exist, the less appealing that resolution becomes. So I'm still wondering if their future existence was an influence.
LF playtested both sets; in fact he's credited as head playtester in the Empires rulebook. If you're only giving him 90% credibility, I guess you are just a 90% credibility kind of guy.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: cactus on May 10, 2016, 05:22:43 pm
Anybody else hate the gladiator/fortune art?
Well ... they can't all be the best card art ...

*ducks*
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: eHalcyon on May 10, 2016, 05:23:09 pm
I kind of wish Fortune said "2" instead of "x2".
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Ankenaut on May 10, 2016, 05:37:18 pm
Is it just me, or is the text on these cards impeccably centered?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: SevenSpirits on May 10, 2016, 05:37:41 pm
LF playtested both sets; in fact he's credited as head playtester in the Empires rulebook. If you're only giving him 90% credibility, I guess you are just a 90% credibility kind of guy.

I thought I gave him quite a lot of credibility given that he didn't directly answer my question, the sly bastard. But you're on to me, I am a 90% credibility kind of guy.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: markusin on May 10, 2016, 05:42:32 pm
What I like about the split pile cards here is that the bottom card has synergy with the top cards in their respective piles. If that wasn't the case, you would have situations like with Cities and Knights where the players are hoping someone else helps empty the pile(s) for you.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Accatitippi on May 11, 2016, 07:27:39 am
Training lets you put your +$1 token on the Catapult/Rocks pile (and then both cards give +$1), and so on.

Am I right assuming that you can only do this if the top card of the pile is Catapult?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: LastFootnote on May 11, 2016, 09:59:14 am
Training lets you put your +$1 token on the Catapult/Rocks pile (and then both cards give +$1), and so on.

Am I right assuming that you can only do this if the top card of the pile is Catapult?

No, even after Rocks is uncovered, it's still an Action pile (and not a Treasure pile), so you can still put your tokens on it. And you can also do so once the pile is empty, of course.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: AJD on May 11, 2016, 10:33:00 am
I kind of wish Fortune said "2" instead of "x2".

Curse already says "-1" instead of "1", so it's kind of a lost cause.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: McGarnacle on May 11, 2016, 10:35:34 am
I remember predicting there would be something which gave +3 actions. My first post on these forums, actually.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Witherweaver on May 11, 2016, 11:27:05 am
I kind of wish Fortune said "2" instead of "x2".

Curse already says "-1" instead of "1", so it's kind of a lost cause.

Just when we were giving all this font praise.

What a jip; I'm not even going to buy the set now.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Joseph2302 on May 11, 2016, 11:41:26 am
I remember predicting their there would be something which gave +3 actions. My first post on these forums, actually.
FTFY
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: J Reggie on May 11, 2016, 11:43:46 am
Fortune may be the new best thing to gain with a Hero.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: McGarnacle on May 11, 2016, 11:51:24 am
I remember predicting their there would be something which gave +3 actions. My first post on these forums, actually.
FTFY

Thanks, fixed  :-[.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: ced on May 11, 2016, 12:02:35 pm
First thing that jumps out with split piles is that each individual card will usually be unevenly split between the two players. Losing a split 3-2 is not commonly going to be a big deal, most likely - but may be significant for pile control if a particular split-pile card is the only +buy on the board.

Gladiator is simple at a glance. I think I guessed in the teasers thread that supply trashing might turn a terminal silver into a terminal gold, but I wouldn't have seen the player interaction aspect coming. Seems a little difficult to get this off early, especially with the terminal-ness making it hard to reveal other actions. I suspect that you usually only want the one of these, maybe getting a second if you need the Fortune and your opponent ignores it. Gladiator BM might be reasonable on Shelter boards, if that ever comes up.
Fortune seems absurd. $16 is a massive price, of course, but you can buy it from having just $8. Assuming you have the one Gladiator and are drawing your deck, this takes your money payload from $8 to $14 to $22 over a couple of turns. Amazing if the tools to control your deck are there. I imagine there's going to be some gameplay with Gladiator reveals in order to get the first Fortune buy. Perhaps you intentionally don't reveal a card you have so as to mill down to one Gladiator left, for example. Hey, it has +buy too. Perhaps you just get three Fortunes to their two to maintain pile control. Would be an amusing game that comes down to that.

Settlers is a Peddler variant. Always a cantrip, sometimes it hits a copper and you're happier. Kind of sucks that it has a 7/12 chance of whiffing on the first shuffle - you have to let your deck grow a little more for it to be good. Sort of Counting House with less opportunity cost, but going to be nice in bigger decks.
Bustling Village is potentially a lot of value. It can be +2 cards, +3 actions, +$1. This is one where I think you want the 3-2 Settler split to go your way - it's difficult to connect even the first Bustling with only two Settlers. On its own it is a double Village, which is probably valued in the awkward $4.5 spot. You could always force the issue on both cards with some sifting - Sage is particularly cool.

Catapult will slow games to a crawl. It's a slow trasher to begin with (terminal, one card at a time, very little economic benefit to you), then on top of that it offers a two-pronged attack while also discouraging trashing your real junk i.e. curses and estates. Catapult games might start similarly to Ambassador games - you throw stuff at each other while struggling to find the time to build. Two is a nice number of these to have, but you can always chuck the third catapult at the other guy for the curse. Silvers are obviously the best fuel for this card, and it works great with anything that can continually supply them.
Rocks, fortunately, are filled with Silver. One Rock is three doubly-activated Catapults, and that's a big deal. Not to mention trashing the Rock is an immediate economic boost. It may be hard to find the time to buy the third Catapult and uncover the Rocks, perhaps when you're sure the other guy can't hit 4 next turn.

I like these cards a lot more than yesterday's previews. Those debt cards were mostly self-explanatory, while these cards are interesting, offering decisions and interaction.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: crj on May 11, 2016, 12:36:23 pm
I kind of wish Fortune said "2" instead of "x2".
Curse already says "-1" instead of "1", so it's kind of a lost cause.
Argh!

I was going to say that, for some reason the /x bugged me more, but I went and looked at a Curse to check.

Now that bugs me, too. )-8

On the other hand we're not supposed to like Curses. Treasure is one of the finest cards in the game.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: crj on May 11, 2016, 12:39:46 pm
Do NOT Google "busty villager" when image searching to make a FYP "bustier/busier" joke
I went there.

Surprisingly, the images are mainly OK; it's the textual hits that are appalling.

I've never encountered that phenomenon before. Clearly, you should win some sort of prize. Just not a very nice one...
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Pastey17 on May 11, 2016, 01:08:19 pm
How does Fortune work with coin tokens?  Do you have to pay all the coin tokens you want to use that turn before you put Fortune down to double them?  Can you play any coin tokens after playing Fortune (not that you'd want to, but you never know)?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: GendoIkari on May 11, 2016, 01:16:36 pm
How does Fortune work with coin tokens?  Do you have to pay all the coin tokens you want to use that turn before you put Fortune down to double them?  Can you play any coin tokens after playing Fortune (not that you'd want to, but you never know)?

You can spend coin tokens for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) in your buy phase any time before you buy a card. So you could spend coin tokens for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) before playing Fortune, in which case that (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) would be doubled. If you don't spend the coin tokens before playing Fortune, then there's no interaction there, you just won't double that (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) because you don't have it. And then you could pay coin tokens after that for non-doubled (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png).
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: eHalcyon on May 11, 2016, 01:34:46 pm
How does Fortune work with coin tokens?  Do you have to pay all the coin tokens you want to use that turn before you put Fortune down to double them?  Can you play any coin tokens after playing Fortune (not that you'd want to, but you never know)?

You can spend coin tokens for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) in your buy phase any time before you buy a card. So you could spend coin tokens for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) before playing Fortune, in which case that (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) would be doubled. If you don't spend the coin tokens before playing Fortune, then there's no interaction there, you just won't double that (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) because you don't have it. And then you could pay coin tokens after that for non-doubled (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png).

This may actually matter if you're going to buy a Villa and then play a Storyteller.  That extra $1 from doubling the coin token value could trigger an unwanted reshuffle!  Edgiest of cases.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: markusin on May 11, 2016, 01:53:33 pm
I like how the bottom cards synergize with the top cards, even though the synergy between Gladiator and Fortune feels a bit heavy-handed. This helps avoid the scenario with City and Knights where you want other players to empty the piles. That dynamic is kinda cool, but City and Knights providing that fix is enough for me.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: King Leon on May 11, 2016, 04:15:28 pm
I wonder why Gladiator is so cheap for a terminal Gold variant. It is true, that Gladiator is much worse than Adventurer, but I think it is also very similar to Harvest.

Let's assume, that the odds that Harvest provides $1/$2/$3/$4 are ~ 2%/23%/55%/20% this is an average of 2.93$, practically a terminal Gold. Now let us estimate that Gladiator gives $2/$3 in 35%/65% of all cases, this is an average of 2.65$. We see, that Gladiator is only slightly weaker than Harvest.

Keeping its secondary effect in mind, I think, this card should cost $4, but maybe Donald had his reasons for the $3.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Elestan on May 11, 2016, 04:29:03 pm
I wonder why Gladiator is so cheap for a terminal Gold variant. It is true, that Gladiator is much worse than Adventurer, but I assume that its strength is very similar to Harvest. Keeping its secondary effect in mind, I think, this card should cost $4, but maybe Donald had his reasons for the $3.

I don't know for certain, but I would guess that it's because early in the game it's quite likely to be a terminal Silver, not a Gold, and the early game is when the difference matters most.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: markusin on May 11, 2016, 04:29:52 pm
I wonder why Gladiator is so cheap for a terminal Gold variant. It is true, that Gladiator is much worse than Adventurer, but I assume that its strength is very similar to Harvest. Keeping its secondary effect in mind, I think, this card should cost $4, but maybe Donald had his reasons for the $3.
Probably because it's not a terminal gold very often before like the third reshuffle. It makes sense to give a lower price to cards you want to get after the opening because the opportunity cost is already high by that point.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Awaclus on May 11, 2016, 04:34:29 pm
A lot of cards at low price points have a pretty decent chance of being terminal Golds (or better). Like Coppersmith and Baron. Harvest and Adventurer are just extremely awful cards.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: crj on May 11, 2016, 04:46:03 pm
I wonder why Gladiator is so cheap for a terminal Gold variant. It is true, that Gladiator is much worse than Adventurer, but I think it is also very similar to Harvest.
What they said.

But also: Gladiator rewards a divergent strategy (having cards the other players don't) which is a fun and interesting thing to reward. That argues in favour of making it absolutely as cheap as possible.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: GendoIkari on May 11, 2016, 08:10:23 pm
I'm curious why fortune doesn't use the Crossroads and Fool's Gold wording of "if this is th first time you played Fortune this turn". Instead it talks about if you haven't yet doubled this turn... It could be taken as a hint that there's yet another card that doubles your money.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Seprix on May 11, 2016, 08:11:34 pm
I'm curious why fortune doesn't use the Crossroads and Fool's Gold wording of "if this is th first time you played Fortune this turn". Instead it talks about if you haven't yet doubled this turn... It could be taken as a hint that there's yet another card that doubles your money.

I doubt this. Why would Donald make TWO cards that double your money? Plus, it's shorter to say.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: werothegreat on May 11, 2016, 08:39:55 pm
I'm curious why fortune doesn't use the Crossroads and Fool's Gold wording of "if this is th first time you played Fortune this turn". Instead it talks about if you haven't yet doubled this turn... It could be taken as a hint that there's yet another card that doubles your money.

I doubt this. Why would Donald make TWO cards that double your money? Plus, it's shorter to say.

It's probably a safeguard against future shenanigans, as always.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: cactus on May 12, 2016, 06:24:47 pm
Looking again at the card art. Bustling Village does not look all that bustling. More like tumbleweeds.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Watno on May 12, 2016, 06:29:17 pm
Also, as pointed out previously by Awaclus, there are already cards that can double your money, like Copper.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: eHalcyon on May 12, 2016, 06:33:17 pm
Also, as pointed out previously by Awaclus, there are already cards that can double your money, like Copper.

Even though the result of playing a Copper sometimes gives you a coin total that is double what it was previously, the act of playing that Copper is not doubling your money.  It's adding 1, which is mathematically different than multiplying by 2.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: werothegreat on May 12, 2016, 06:35:43 pm
Also, as pointed out previously by Awaclus, there are already cards that can double your money, like Copper.

Even though the result of playing a Copper sometimes gives you a coin total that is double what it was previously, the act of playing that Copper is not doubling your money.  It's adding 1, which is mathematically different than multiplying by 2.

And this is why ignorant parents get all pissy at Common Core.  Just because you got the right answer in the end, that doesn't mean you did it the right way, which is what matters.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Beyond Awesome on May 12, 2016, 07:30:58 pm
Also, as pointed out previously by Awaclus, there are already cards that can double your money, like Copper.

Even though the result of playing a Copper sometimes gives you a coin total that is double what it was previously, the act of playing that Copper is not doubling your money.  It's adding 1, which is mathematically different than multiplying by 2.

And this is why ignorant parents get all pissy at Common Core.  Just because you got the right answer in the end, that doesn't mean you did it the right way, which is what matters.

I watched a YouTube video on common core once, and then immediately forgot what I just watched.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: JThorne on May 13, 2016, 01:02:49 pm
Quote
...This helps avoid the scenario with City and Knights...

You definitely want to avoid this scenario when your friends say "Let's play Catan!" Noooooooooo!....

"What about Seafarers?" Great, just what Catan needed, more less-productive coastal properties leading to dead turns.

Next person to complain about some nitpicky aspect of Dominion should be sentenced to play a few 4-hour-long games of 6-player Catan with all the expansions.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: LastFootnote on May 13, 2016, 03:39:25 pm
I watched a YouTube video on common core once, and then immediately forgot what I just watched.

Then how are you telling this story!?!?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Eran of Arcadia on May 13, 2016, 05:09:42 pm
I watched a YouTube video on common core once, and then immediately forgot what I just watched.

Then how are you telling this story!?!?

It showed up in his history.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Minotaur on May 18, 2016, 10:35:04 pm
The RBCI thread: your source for Dominion inside information.

I'm still waiting for Noble Rats.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: wachsmuth on May 18, 2016, 10:50:43 pm
Next person to complain about some nitpicky aspect of Dominion should be sentenced to play a few 4-hour-long games of 6-player Catan with all the expansions.

All the expansions? Do you have any idea how many obscure variants there are? That's going to take a lot more than 4 hours when you take into account all the obscure but official variants like Hot Air Balloons, Factories, Specialists, Catan Rally, Dragonslayers, Magic Castle, Oil Springs, Atlantis, Football Fields, Catan is Round, Chocolate Market and many more... All of these are real by the way.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: JThorne on May 19, 2016, 11:24:05 am
Quote
That's going to take a lot more than 4 hours when you take into account all the obscure but official variants like Hot Air Balloons, Factories, Specialists, Catan Rally, Dragonslayers, Magic Castle, Oil Springs, Atlantis, Football Fields, Catan is Round, Chocolate Market and many more...

The horror!

That's one of the many things I really appreciate about Dominion. No matter how many expansions you add, there's the self-limiting factor: 10-card kingdoms. Every other game adds time/setup/complexity when expansions are added, and while Dominion does add complexity with certain mechanics, if anything, some of them actually speed up the game.

Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Chris is me on May 19, 2016, 12:51:44 pm
I was playing a game with some proxy cards and came upon an interesting question. Someone had a hand of Crown, Gold, and Fortune. They Crowned Gold and then played Fortune. Crown doubled their money, does that mean Fortune doesn't trigger?

I'm 99% sure the answer to this is "Fortune does trigger" and the ability refers to cards that specifically double your current number of coins. Is this true?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Beyond Awesome on May 19, 2016, 12:57:29 pm
Playing a card twice and doubling are not the same thing.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: LastFootnote on May 19, 2016, 12:58:00 pm
I was playing a game with some proxy cards and came upon an interesting question. Someone had a hand of Crown, Gold, and Fortune. They Crowned Gold and then played Fortune. Crown doubled their money, does that mean Fortune doesn't trigger?

I'm 99% sure the answer to this is "Fortune does trigger" and the ability refers to cards that specifically double your current number of coins. Is this true?

Yes, Fortune triggers.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Accatitippi on May 19, 2016, 12:58:28 pm
I was playing a game with some proxy cards and came upon an interesting question. Someone had a hand of Crown, Gold, and Fortune. They Crowned Gold and then played Fortune. Crown doubled their money, does that mean Fortune doesn't trigger?

I'm 99% sure the answer to this is "Fortune does trigger" and the ability refers to cards that specifically double your current number of coins. Is this true?
Crown didn't exactly double their coins, it just let him add 3 coins twice.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: singletee on May 19, 2016, 12:59:42 pm
I play Sea Hag while having no coins. I've just doubled my money!
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: RevanFan on May 19, 2016, 01:15:34 pm
I was playing a game with some proxy cards and came upon an interesting question. Someone had a hand of Crown, Gold, and Fortune. They Crowned Gold and then played Fortune. Crown doubled their money, does that mean Fortune doesn't trigger?

I'm 99% sure the answer to this is "Fortune does trigger" and the ability refers to cards that specifically double your current number of coins. Is this true?

Yes, Fortune triggers.
My question is, can you Crown Fortune? My assumption is no, because Fortune only allows you to double your coin once. Is that correct?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: AJD on May 19, 2016, 01:17:47 pm
I was playing a game with some proxy cards and came upon an interesting question. Someone had a hand of Crown, Gold, and Fortune. They Crowned Gold and then played Fortune. Crown doubled their money, does that mean Fortune doesn't trigger?

I'm 99% sure the answer to this is "Fortune does trigger" and the ability refers to cards that specifically double your current number of coins. Is this true?

Yes, Fortune triggers.
My question is, can you Crown Fortune? My assumption is no, because Fortune only allows you to double your coin once. Is that correct?

You can Crown Fortune, but you don't get more money than just playing Fortune normally.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Cuzz on May 19, 2016, 01:26:22 pm
I was playing a game with some proxy cards and came upon an interesting question. Someone had a hand of Crown, Gold, and Fortune. They Crowned Gold and then played Fortune. Crown doubled their money, does that mean Fortune doesn't trigger?

I'm 99% sure the answer to this is "Fortune does trigger" and the ability refers to cards that specifically double your current number of coins. Is this true?

Yes, Fortune triggers.
My question is, can you Crown Fortune? My assumption is no, because Fortune only allows you to double your coin once. Is that correct?

You can Crown Fortune, but you don't get more money than just playing Fortune normally.

You can also throne a crossroads with no victory cards in hand if that really does it for you.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Chris is me on May 19, 2016, 01:35:21 pm
I was playing a game with some proxy cards and came upon an interesting question. Someone had a hand of Crown, Gold, and Fortune. They Crowned Gold and then played Fortune. Crown doubled their money, does that mean Fortune doesn't trigger?

I'm 99% sure the answer to this is "Fortune does trigger" and the ability refers to cards that specifically double your current number of coins. Is this true?

Yes, Fortune triggers.
My question is, can you Crown Fortune? My assumption is no, because Fortune only allows you to double your coin once. Is that correct?

You can Crown Fortune, but you don't get more money than just playing Fortune normally.

Hey, at least you get another Buy this way! That sometimes matters!
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: MattTV on May 28, 2016, 07:59:50 pm
I think the split piles are my favorite of all the previews. The art could be a little better but I like the interaction between the cards.  I know I'll be digging for that fortune every game it's up. I mean you can't just ignore a 16 dollar treasure you don't even have to pay full amount for up front. That's one thing I've noticed with a lot of the cards shown is that there's more of a temptation to empty out the piles than racing to empty the province/colony piles. It motivates the alternative 3-pile ending which is always a plus; makes it different. Can't wait to see the rest :).
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: MattTV on May 28, 2016, 08:02:54 pm
BTW lets say i played 3 highways and used altar to gain a fortune (since it has a normal price as well) would I accumulate the debt of 8 dollars just from gaining that fortune or would I get it for free
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Beyond Awesome on May 28, 2016, 08:10:50 pm
You can't gain it this way since debt is also in the cost. It's like cards that have potion in the cost.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Deadlock39 on May 28, 2016, 10:41:48 pm
If you play Hero, and gain a Fortune, you do not gain the debt. It is only gained when buying
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: MattTV on May 28, 2016, 11:38:57 pm
You can't gain it this way since debt is also in the cost. It's like cards that have potion in the cost.
If you play Hero, and gain a Fortune, you do not gain the debt. It is only gained when buying
lol I'm trying to discern which one of you guys are right but I would guess that you can still gain a fortune through altar if it still has a normal price with the debt price as well. I mean i know you can't gain a card like royal blacksmith since it just debt but I don't know if the same applies to a mixed price card.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: J Reggie on May 28, 2016, 11:50:21 pm
You can't gain it this way since debt is also in the cost. It's like cards that have potion in the cost.
If you play Hero, and gain a Fortune, you do not gain the debt. It is only gained when buying
lol I'm trying to discern which one of you guys are right but I would guess that you can still gain a fortune through altar if it still has a normal price with the debt price as well. I mean i know you can't gain a card like royal blacksmith since it just debt but I don't know if the same applies to a mixed price card.

They're both right. You can't gain a Fortune with Altar just like you can't gain a Familiar with Altar. You can gain a Fortune with Hero just like you can gain a Phil Stone with Hero. You don't get debt by gaining the Fortune with Hero.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: MattTV on May 29, 2016, 12:11:06 am
You can't gain it this way since debt is also in the cost. It's like cards that have potion in the cost.
If you play Hero, and gain a Fortune, you do not gain the debt. It is only gained when buying
lol I'm trying to discern which one of you guys are right but I would guess that you can still gain a fortune through altar if it still has a normal price with the debt price as well. I mean i know you can't gain a card like royal blacksmith since it just debt but I don't know if the same applies to a mixed price card.

They're both right. You can't gain a Fortune with Altar just like you can't gain a Familiar with Altar. You can gain a Fortune with Hero just like you can gain a Phil Stone with Hero. You don't get debt by gaining the Fortune with Hero.
Ohh I see so hero can gain it cause price doesn't matter but when price does come up everything else fails to gain it. alright that answers my question. thanks J Reggie.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Jeebus on May 30, 2016, 08:51:42 pm
Ohh I see so hero can gain it cause price doesn't matter but when price does come up everything else fails to gain it. alright that answers my question. thanks J Reggie.

Royal Blacksmith's cost is $0+8D, so with 5 Highways in play you could Expand a Royal Blacksmith into a Fortune...
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: GendoIkari on May 31, 2016, 12:36:51 pm
I was playing a game with some proxy cards and came upon an interesting question. Someone had a hand of Crown, Gold, and Fortune. They Crowned Gold and then played Fortune. Crown doubled their money, does that mean Fortune doesn't trigger?

I'm 99% sure the answer to this is "Fortune does trigger" and the ability refers to cards that specifically double your current number of coins. Is this true?

Yeah, the (faulty) logic that leads to Fortune not triggering would also say that if you play 2 Coppers and then Fortune, that Fortune does nothing, because the second Copper "doubled your money" by taking it from 1 to 2.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Dominionaer on June 01, 2016, 05:02:10 am
I was playing a game with some proxy cards and came upon an interesting question. Someone had a hand of Crown, Gold, and Fortune. They Crowned Gold and then played Fortune. Crown doubled their money, does that mean Fortune doesn't trigger?

I'm 99% sure the answer to this is "Fortune does trigger" and the ability refers to cards that specifically double your current number of coins. Is this true?

Yeah, the (faulty) logic that leads to Fortune not triggering would also say that if you play 2 Coppers and then Fortune, that Fortune does nothing, because the second Copper "doubled your money" by taking it from 1 to 2.
Coppersmith!
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Doom_Shark on June 02, 2016, 12:43:12 am
I'm guessing I can't play Actions in my Buy phase if my +1 Action token is on Rocks?  But if I buy a Villa, I will have that extra Action when I revert to my Action phase?
Same goes for fortune, and the only thing so far about this card is how much the art sucks.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Elestan on June 02, 2016, 03:19:05 am
Yeah, the (faulty) logic that leads to Fortune not triggering would also say that if you play 2 Coppers and then Fortune, that Fortune does nothing, because the second Copper "doubled your money" by taking it from 1 to 2.
Coppersmith!

Coppersmith does not double your money.  It makes Copper yield +$1.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Witherweaver on June 02, 2016, 05:36:34 pm
Playing no $ generation during your Action phase (with no Durations) also doubles your money!
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: trivialknot on June 02, 2016, 07:17:39 pm
I just realized that Gladiator (as well as several other preview cards) showcase the new use of "they" pronouns.  People in my household are pretty hyped about the pronoun change.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Witherweaver on June 02, 2016, 07:27:03 pm
I just realized that Gladiator (as well as several other preview cards) showcase the new use of "they" pronouns.  People in my household are pretty hyped about the pronoun change.

I bet those bastards are.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Chris is me on June 03, 2016, 12:08:59 pm
I just realized that Gladiator (as well as several other preview cards) showcase the new use of "they" pronouns.  People in my household are pretty hyped about the pronoun change.

This change has made pretty much everyone I play Dominion with who isn't male (actually, the majority of people I play Dominion with) very happy.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Witherweaver on June 03, 2016, 01:00:42 pm
I just realized that Gladiator (as well as several other preview cards) showcase the new use of "they" pronouns.  People in my household are pretty hyped about the pronoun change.

This change has made pretty much everyone I play Dominion with who isn't male (actually, the majority of people I play Dominion with) very happy.

I bet those bastards are.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Awaclus on June 03, 2016, 03:39:54 pm
I just realized that Gladiator (as well as several other preview cards) showcase the new use of "they" pronouns.  People in my household are pretty hyped about the pronoun change.

This change has made pretty much everyone I play Dominion with who isn't male (actually, the majority of people I play Dominion with) very happy.

Didn't make any males happy?
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Eran of Arcadia on June 03, 2016, 03:46:25 pm
I'm indifferent, and so's my wife.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: drsteelhammer on June 03, 2016, 03:47:56 pm
I just realized that Gladiator (as well as several other preview cards) showcase the new use of "they" pronouns.  People in my household are pretty hyped about the pronoun change.

This change has made pretty much everyone I play Dominion with who isn't male (actually, the majority of people I play Dominion with) very happy.

Didn't make any males happy?

Only the bastards
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Seprix on June 03, 2016, 05:27:20 pm
One bastard goes in, and another comes out.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: dbclick on June 05, 2016, 02:12:06 am
Does Catapult's Treasure type check happen before or after the trashed card lands in the trash? (since an Estate inheriting Crown would revert back to a non-Treasure once in the trash)
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Donald X. on June 05, 2016, 02:18:02 am
Does Catapult's Treasure type check happen before or after the trashed card lands in the trash? (since an Estate inheriting Crown would revert back to a non-Treasure once in the trash)
After.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: mail-mi on June 05, 2016, 03:00:50 am
Does Catapult's Treasure type check happen before or after the trashed card lands in the trash? (since an Estate inheriting Crown would revert back to a non-Treasure once in the trash)

Of all the obscure rules questions i have seen, this wins the title of most obscure. Congratulations.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Seprix on June 05, 2016, 01:47:54 pm
Does Catapult's Treasure type check happen before or after the trashed card lands in the trash? (since an Estate inheriting Crown would revert back to a non-Treasure once in the trash)

Of all the obscure rules questions i have seen, this wins the title of most obscure. Congratulations.

It is relevant though, and would eventually come up.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Accatitippi on June 05, 2016, 08:08:50 pm
Does Catapult's Treasure type check happen before or after the trashed card lands in the trash? (since an Estate inheriting Crown would revert back to a non-Treasure once in the trash)

Of all the obscure rules questions i have seen, this wins the title of most obscure. Congratulations.

It is relevant though, and would eventually come up.

And it was very convenient to have asked during our own (and Donald's) lifespan, rather than waiting until it comes up in a real game.
 ;) :P
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Seprix on June 05, 2016, 09:08:22 pm
I can envision the plausible scenario.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Donald X. on June 06, 2016, 12:11:43 am
And it was very convenient to have asked during our own (and Donald's) lifespan, rather than waiting until it comes up in a real game.
 ;) :P
I don't mind the questions; I just have only so much time to spend on them.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: mith on June 06, 2016, 01:26:20 pm
That particular combo (2 Kingdom, 1 Event) should come up on the order of 1 in 23k games. Shouldn't take that long for it to happen on DO17 in random games.

/inb4 someone submits it for a Dominion League Championship Match design challenge.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Squidd on June 06, 2016, 01:44:48 pm
(2 Kingdom, 1 Event)
Plus cost-reducer.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: faust on June 06, 2016, 02:03:52 pm
(2 Kingdom, 1 Event)
Plus cost-reducer.

Plus a situation where it's actually good play to trash your Crown.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Deadlock39 on June 06, 2016, 02:06:14 pm
(2 Kingdom, 1 Event)
Plus cost-reducer.

Plus a situation where it's actually good play to trash your Crown.

Plus a situation where using cost reduction to Inherit Crown is a reasonable option as compared to Inheriting something different.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: Chris is me on June 06, 2016, 02:11:54 pm
(2 Kingdom, 1 Event)
Plus cost-reducer.

Plus a situation where it's actually good play to trash your Crown.

Plus a situation where using cost reduction to Inherit Crown is a reasonable option as compared to Inheriting something different.

This one might be the toughest because you would almost always rather inherit the cost reducer directly. If it's Bridge then you can Crown it to get hella reduction. If it's highway it makes it so you can reduce costs a lot without winning the split of real Highway cards.
Title: Re: Empires Previews #2: Split Piles
Post by: faust on June 06, 2016, 02:19:50 pm
(2 Kingdom, 1 Event)
Plus cost-reducer.

Plus a situation where it's actually good play to trash your Crown.

Plus a situation where using cost reduction to Inherit Crown is a reasonable option as compared to Inheriting something different.

This one might be the toughest because you would almost always rather inherit the cost reducer directly. If it's Bridge then you can Crown it to get hella reduction. If it's highway it makes it so you can reduce costs a lot without winning the split of real Highway cards.

Well, there's still Ferry. Plus, I think Inheriting Crown is usually better than inheriting Bridge, because inheriting nonterminals is usually better than inheriting terminals.