# Dominion Strategy Forum

## Dominion => Puzzles and Challenges => Topic started by: Elanchana on May 09, 2016, 10:10:22 pm

Title: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Elanchana on May 09, 2016, 10:10:22 pm
We can all agree that Villa (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15362.0), the new card, is kinda broken. But how broken can it be? Buckle your seatbelts and let's push this as far as possible.

Credit to 2 of the original playtesters for coming up with this idea (I just refined it a bit).

The Challenge: Using Villa as a key card, have a turn that can generate infinite coins and buys. And when I say infinite, I mean literally infinite. You must follow all the rules of Dominion, including using a legal kingdom (10/11 cards, max 2 events).

Hard modes:
• Do not rely on shuffle luck to start or play your turn.
• Do not have any durations in play.
• Do not use Teacher or any of the tokens it grants you.
• Be able to scale this challenge from zero to ten (reasonably compliant) opponents.
• Use as few kingdom cards as possible.

Expert mode: All of the above at once.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Seprix on May 09, 2016, 10:25:25 pm
Villa is not broken at all.

Working on this problem now. I am assuming all cards revealed today and before can make this work, and that there isn't some card to be revealed later that is crucial.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Roadrunner7671 on May 09, 2016, 10:29:03 pm
I've never understood this. You can use more than two Events! The recommended number is 0-2, but that's not the official range.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Elanchana on May 09, 2016, 10:36:48 pm
I've never understood this. You can use more than two Events! The recommended number is 0-2, but that's not the official range.

Eh, fair point. Well, 2 or fewer events can be another hard mode I guess.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Seprix on May 09, 2016, 10:41:08 pm
I have everything figured out except for the infinite gaining of Villas. Obviously, you have to be able to gain Villas infinitely to be able to do anything here. If there's a way to trash Villas and regain them, you can chain together a turn forever, and if you get Bridges into play, you can simply mass up extra buys, trash the Bridges and regain them, playing them over and over again. The problem is that trash gain cards are finite.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: pacovf on May 09, 2016, 10:50:28 pm
The "compliant opponents" libe makes me think there are ambassador(+Moat) shenanigans.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Seprix on May 09, 2016, 10:52:08 pm
The "compliant opponents" libe makes me think there are ambassador(+Moat) shenanigans.

0-10 opponents. You can solo this.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: pacovf on May 09, 2016, 10:54:06 pm
Yes, you play Ambassador to send Villas back to the Supply, so you can buy them again.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Seprix on May 09, 2016, 10:54:38 pm
Yes, you play Ambassador to send Villas back to the Supply, so you can buy them again.

Oh, right. I don't need to trash cards then. Well, I can figure out the solution now, I think.

EDIT: Oh, wait. Ambassadors are still only finite. There are only so many Ambassadors before you run out. I'm thinking it's an Event that will trigger this infinite chain because of this.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Elestan on May 09, 2016, 10:54:44 pm
The "compliant opponents" libe makes me think there are ambassador(+Moat) shenanigans.
0-10 opponents. You can solo this.

Zero opponents has the same effect on Ambassadors as any number of Moated opponents.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: liopoil on May 09, 2016, 11:22:23 pm
I'm inclined to think this is impossible. If not, what is wrong with the following reasoning?

It is impossible for an action card, once completely resolved, to leave play. Note that any card which doesn't take itself out of play can only be taken out of play by procession, which doesn't take itself out of play. Cards which take themselves or others out of play go to the trash, and only graverobber/rogue take cards out of the trash, and they themselves stay in play. Thus we are forced to put a card in play which stays in play after a finite time, and there are finitely many cards, so all turns must be finite.

Maybe there is a way with mandarin/HoP shenanigans? I didn't account for treasures. But ambassadors still can't leave play unless processed, and the first in a procession chain stays in play.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: florrat on May 09, 2016, 11:24:28 pm
Bonfire (and Mandarin) say hi.

I have a solution with 7 kingdom piles. I'm trying to reduce it to 5.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Elanchana on May 09, 2016, 11:28:39 pm
Bonfire (and Mandarin) say hi.

I have a solution with 7 kingdom piles. I'm trying to reduce it to 5.

I've gotten it down to 6. I tried reducing it to 5 and failed (under all the hard mode conditions). But if you succeed, congrats!
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: liopoil on May 09, 2016, 11:29:18 pm
Bonfire (and Mandarin) say hi.

I have a solution with 7 kingdom piles. I'm trying to reduce it to 5.
Bonfire! We can procession ambassadors and rogues then bonfire the processions. Not sure what other cards are specifically neccessary besides villa?
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Seprix on May 09, 2016, 11:33:31 pm
Bonfire (and Mandarin) say hi.

I have a solution with 7 kingdom piles. I'm trying to reduce it to 5.
Bonfire! We can procession ambassadors and rogues then bonfire the processions. Not sure what other cards are specifically neccessary besides villa?

Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: liopoil on May 09, 2016, 11:36:22 pm
Bonfire (and Mandarin) say hi.

I have a solution with 7 kingdom piles. I'm trying to reduce it to 5.
Bonfire! We can procession ambassadors and rogues then bonfire the processions. Not sure what other cards are specifically neccessary besides villa?

Bonfire solves the problem because now we can play a single ambassadors, rogue, and processions infinitely many times each by trashing and regaining them. I don't have the details, but I don't see why you need more than those, villa, and a way to draw them.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: florrat on May 09, 2016, 11:40:23 pm
Getting enough draw, coins and buys is tricky, without any of the tokens which Champion Teacher can put on piles. The details are the hard part  :)
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: math on May 09, 2016, 11:49:53 pm
If you have Bridge (or Highways, they can still be in play), isn't getting enough coins easy?  Just reduce the cost of everything except Events to \$0.  Or is that not enough?
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Elestan on May 09, 2016, 11:52:17 pm
If you have Bridge (or Highways, they can still be in play), isn't getting enough coins easy?  Just reduce the cost of everything except Events to \$0.  Or is that not enough?

Think about what that does to Rogue.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: math on May 09, 2016, 11:53:36 pm
If you have Bridge (or Highways, they can still be in play), isn't getting enough coins easy?  Just reduce the cost of everything except Events to \$0.  Or is that not enough?

Think about what that does to Rogue.

Hmm, good point.  Never mind.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Seprix on May 09, 2016, 11:54:36 pm
Capital can be used to get +\$6 money and a buy, and Expedition can be used to draw +2 cards a turn, solving the draw problem. Rogue provides extra money, so you can easily get more than enough to pay for this with a net gain.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: math on May 09, 2016, 11:55:36 pm
Capital can be used to get +\$6 money and a buy, and Expedition can be used to draw +2 cards a turn, solving the draw problem.

Expedition only works for your next turn, not your next action phase.  None of the Expeditions you buy will trigger.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Seprix on May 09, 2016, 11:56:10 pm
Capital can be used to get +\$6 money and a buy, and Expedition can be used to draw +2 cards a turn, solving the draw problem.

Expedition only works for your next turn, not your next action phase.  None of the Expeditions you buy will trigger.

Darn. I was thinking about Princed actions as well, but I dismissed those for this very reason. I did forget about Expedition though.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: liopoil on May 10, 2016, 12:01:52 am
Getting enough draw, coins and buys is tricky, without any of the tokens which Champion Teacher can put on piles. The details are the hard part  :)
Coins: Mining Village/Rogue
Draw: Fortress

The only trouble now is getting enough rogue plays.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: florrat on May 10, 2016, 12:02:46 am
I can do it with 5 kingdom cards and 2 events, without durations or teacher-tokens and even without Black Market. This is in a solo game; with opponents I need every opponent to have a Moat in hand, which adds 1 kingdom pile.

Kingdom: Ambassador, Villa, Rogue, King's Court, Council Room
Events: Ferry, Bonfire
shelter game

Preparation: Put Ferry token on KC. Get a deck consisting of KC*6, Amb, Rogue*4, Villa*4, CR*3, Overgrown Estate, Hovel. Trash all starting copper and Necropolis and make sure at least the following is in the trash: KC*4, Amb*1, Rogue*4, Villa*2, CR (trash with Bonfire).

Start your infinite turn when you have KC*2, CR*2 (this will eventually always happen). Play KC-KC-CR-CR-Villa to draw your deck.

-- START LOOP -- (hand consist of KC*4, Amb*1, Rogue*4, Villa*3, CR (and OE), trash consists of KC*4, Amb*1, Rogue*4, Villa*2, CR)
Now play your 4 KCs in a chain to play 7 actions three times:
play 4 Rogues three times, to gain KC*4, Amb, Rogue*4, Villa*2, CR
play CR three times to draw your deck.
play 2 Villas three times.

You gained 30 coins and 9 buys by this KC-chain. Go to the buy phase and buy Bonfire 6 times to trash 4*KC, 4*Rogue, CR, Villa*2, Amb. Buy a Villa to return to your action phase, and repeat the loop.
-- END LOOP --

Every iteration of the loop gives 8 coins and 2 buys, so you can get arbitrarily much coins and buys by doing this as often as you like (however, not infinitely many, since that takes infinite time)

EDIT: simplify a little bit.
EDIT 2: Had to make some minor changes because you cannot trash hovel without having a victory card in your deck in this kingdom.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Seprix on May 10, 2016, 12:03:18 am
Getting enough draw, coins and buys is tricky, without any of the tokens which Champion Teacher can put on piles. The details are the hard part  :)
Coins: Mining Village/Rogue
Draw: Fortress

The only trouble now is getting enough rogue plays.

Fortress draw. YES. Of course.

I don't like the Mining Village play so much, too much to gain back with Rogue.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Seprix on May 10, 2016, 12:04:57 am
Florrat did it. Everyone upvote him.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: liopoil on May 10, 2016, 12:07:16 am
Rogue cannot gain King's Court. If you play a highway you can't get amb back. I think you need procession.

Nevermind, ferry token^^

What is OE for?
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: singletee on May 10, 2016, 12:08:09 am
Rogue cannot gain King's Court

Ferry on King's Court.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: math on May 10, 2016, 12:14:11 am
What is OE for?

There's no way to trash it, so it has to stay.  Same with hovel.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Elanchana on May 10, 2016, 12:14:31 am
I can do it with 5 kingdom cards and 2 events, without durations or teacher-tokens and even without Black Market. This is in a solo game; with opponents I need every opponent to have a Moat in hand, which adds 1 kingdom pile.

Kingdom: Ambassador, Villa, Rogue, King's Court, Council Room
Events: Ferry, Bonfire
shelter game

Preparation: Put Ferry token on KC. Get a deck consisting of KC*6, Amb, Rogue*4, Villa*4, CR*3, Overgrown Estate, Hovel. Trash all starting copper and Necropolis and make sure at least the following is in the trash: KC*4, Amb*1, Rogue*4, Villa*2, CR (trash with Bonfire).

Start your infinite turn when you have KC*2, CR*2 (this will eventually always happen). Play KC-KC-CR-CR-Villa to draw your deck.

-- START LOOP -- (hand consist of KC*4, Amb*1, Rogue*4, Villa*3, CR (and OE), trash consists of KC*4, Amb*1, Rogue*4, Villa*2, CR)
Now play your 4 KCs in a chain to play 7 actions three times:
play 4 Rogues three times, to gain KC*4, Amb, Rogue*4, Villa*2, CR
play CR three times to draw your deck.
play 2 Villas three times.

You gained 30 coins and 9 buys by this KC-chain. Go to the buy phase and buy Bonfire 6 times to trash 4*KC, 4*Rogue, CR, Villa*2, Amb. Buy a Villa to return to your action phase, and repeat the loop.
-- END LOOP --

Every iteration of the loop gives 8 coins and 2 buys, so you can get arbitrarily much coins and buys by doing this as often as you like (however, not infinitely many, since that takes infinite time)

EDIT: simplify a little bit.
EDIT 2: Had to make some minor changes because you cannot trash hovel without having a victory card in your deck in this kingdom.

I think I might have been bested.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mDtdH6h0HuYkU/giphy.gif)

That still is a bit reliant on shuffle luck though, on a very technical level. My own solution is completely luckless to get started.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: florrat on May 10, 2016, 12:20:30 am
That still is a bit reliant on shuffle luck though, on a very technical level. My own solution is completely luckless to get started.
Eventually you'll hit every starting hand (with probability 1).

If that's not okay you can solve it by using Black Market and putting Scrying Pool, Council Room and Hunting Ground in the BM deck. You can then initially draw your deck with SP, and use CR and HG for draw (the disadvantage is that the on-trash ability of HG caused me headaches, you need a bit extra draw to draw those annoying Duchies (but that can be easily solved by putting some extra cards in the BM deck)).
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: singletee on May 10, 2016, 12:23:35 am
That still is a bit reliant on shuffle luck though, on a very technical level. My own solution is completely luckless to get started.
Eventually you'll hit every starting hand (with probability 1).

If that's not okay you can solve it by using Black Market and putting Scrying Pool, Council Room and Hunting Ground in the BM deck. You can then initially draw your deck with SP, and use CR and HG for draw (the disadvantage is that the on-trash ability of HG caused me headaches, you need a bit extra draw to draw those annoying Duchies (but that can be easily solved by putting some extra cards in the BM deck)).

Just Hireling should be enough to guarantee having your deck in hand at the beginning of the turn. When a Hireling comes around play it. Then Bonfire it when you have \$3. Then Rogue it when you have Rogue in hand. Eventually you can get any starting handsize you want.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Elanchana on May 10, 2016, 12:23:52 am
That still is a bit reliant on shuffle luck though, on a very technical level. My own solution is completely luckless to get started.
Eventually you'll hit every starting hand (with probability 1).

If that's not okay you can solve it by using Black Market and putting Scrying Pool, Council Room and Hunting Ground in the BM deck. You can then initially draw your deck with SP, and use CR and HG for draw (the disadvantage is that the on-trash ability of HG caused me headaches, you need a bit extra draw to draw those annoying Duchies (but that can be easily solved by putting some extra cards in the BM deck)).

I'm not saying that your solution isn't good. It is. It's pretty damn awesome.

Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: singletee on May 10, 2016, 12:39:14 am
That still is a bit reliant on shuffle luck though, on a very technical level. My own solution is completely luckless to get started.
Eventually you'll hit every starting hand (with probability 1).

If that's not okay you can solve it by using Black Market and putting Scrying Pool, Council Room and Hunting Ground in the BM deck. You can then initially draw your deck with SP, and use CR and HG for draw (the disadvantage is that the on-trash ability of HG caused me headaches, you need a bit extra draw to draw those annoying Duchies (but that can be easily solved by putting some extra cards in the BM deck)).

I'm not saying that your solution isn't good. It is. It's pretty damn awesome.

If I had to guess I would say it involves Inherited Villas and Hunting Grounds.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: trivialknot on May 10, 2016, 03:37:07 am
Here's a solution using a five-card deck.  It has no durations, no princes, and the only token is Ferry.

Setup: Ferry on KC
In trash: KC, KC, Rogue, Rogue, BoM, Villa, Villa, Villa
In Hand: KC, KC, Rogue, Rogue, BoM.  These are the only cards in your deck.

Part A:
Play KC-KC-R-R-BoM
Rogues: gain KC, KC, R, R, BoM, Villa
BoM: Mining Village (trashing itself), Salvager (trashing Villa), Watchtower (drawing KC, KC, R, R, BoM)
1 Travelling fairs
2 Bonfires: trash KC, KC, R, R

Part B:
Play KC-KC-R-R-BoM
Rogues: gain KC, KC, R, R, BoM, Villa
BoM: Mining Village (trashing itself), Ambassador (returning two Villas to supply), Watchtower (drawing KC, KC, R, R, BoM)
3 Travelling Fairs
2 Bonfires: trash KC, KC, R, R

Part C:
Play KC-KC-R-R-BoM
Rogues: gain KC, KC, R, R, BoM, Villa
BoM: Mining Village (trashing itself), Salvager (trashing Villa), Watchtower (drawing KC, KC, R, R, BoM)
2 Travelling Fairs
3 Bonfires: trash KC, KC, R, R, Villa, Villa

It starts out with AB, then loops ABCB,ABCB...
Payoff from A: 6
Payoff from B: -1
Payoff from C: 1
Unique cards: 8 + 3 events
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Davio on May 10, 2016, 06:34:05 am
You know, I read through these step-by-step walkthroughs one line at a time and still don't get them.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Elanchana on May 10, 2016, 09:49:16 am
Here's a solution using a five-card deck.  It has no durations, no princes, and the only token is Ferry.

Setup: Ferry on KC
In trash: KC, KC, Rogue, Rogue, BoM, Villa, Villa, Villa
In Hand: KC, KC, Rogue, Rogue, BoM.  These are the only cards in your deck.

Part A:
Play KC-KC-R-R-BoM
Rogues: gain KC, KC, R, R, BoM, Villa
BoM: Mining Village (trashing itself), Salvager (trashing Villa), Watchtower (drawing KC, KC, R, R, BoM)
1 Travelling fairs
2 Bonfires: trash KC, KC, R, R

Part B:
Play KC-KC-R-R-BoM
Rogues: gain KC, KC, R, R, BoM, Villa
BoM: Mining Village (trashing itself), Ambassador (returning two Villas to supply), Watchtower (drawing KC, KC, R, R, BoM)
3 Travelling Fairs
2 Bonfires: trash KC, KC, R, R

Part C:
Play KC-KC-R-R-BoM
Rogues: gain KC, KC, R, R, BoM, Villa
BoM: Mining Village (trashing itself), Salvager (trashing Villa), Watchtower (drawing KC, KC, R, R, BoM)
2 Travelling Fairs
3 Bonfires: trash KC, KC, R, R, Villa, Villa

It starts out with AB, then loops ABCB,ABCB...
Payoff from A: 6
Payoff from B: -1
Payoff from C: 1
Unique cards: 8 + 3 events

Nice one!!

When should I post my solution, by the way? There are obviously a lot of ways to do this, but only one (that I've found anyway) that satisfies all hard mode conditions (which I'll admit were somewhat arbitrary).
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: faust on May 10, 2016, 10:17:35 am
I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet. f.ds, I am disappointed.

Using Villa as a key card, have a turn that can generate infinite coins and buys. And when I say infinite, I mean literally infinite.

This is impossible. You cannot play a game in which, at any point, you have "infinite" (what infinity are we even talking about? Countable? Uncountable? Weakly inaccessible?) coins or buys. The best you can hope for is a deck that can generate an arbirtrarily large amount.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Seprix on May 10, 2016, 10:23:01 am
I'm not saying that your solution isn't good. It is. It's pretty damn awesome.

Make like a Moat and reveal, please.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Elestan on May 10, 2016, 11:05:09 am
Would the playtester who first figured out this combo like to step up and take a bow for it?  A nice bit of work, that.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: florrat on May 10, 2016, 03:47:28 pm
I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet. f.ds, I am disappointed.
You don't have to be disappointed:
[...] so you can get arbitrarily much coins and buys by doing this as often as you like (however, not infinitely many, since that takes infinite time)

However, today I realized this new way of getting arbitrarily many buys and coins is "better" (in some sense) than what could previously be done with Champion/Diadem(/Travelling Fair). Using those cards, you can also get arbitrarily much coins and buys in a single turn. However, this solution is "better", because you only need some fixed amount of preparation time, and then you can get arbitrarily much coins/buys in the next turn. With Champion/Diadem the amount of preparation time you need scales with how much coins/buys you want.

If this wasn't clear, let me try to explain it in a different way. Suppose you want 10^1000 coins. Using Villa, this can be done in less than 20 turns, although the turn where you get all those coins will take a very long time. Using Champion/Diadem, this will probably take at least 10^900 turns of set-up time.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Elanchana on May 11, 2016, 10:25:19 pm
So, I guess people want me to post my expert mode solution - I'm sorry I didn't do this sooner, but f.ds was down for like a whole day. Anyway...

Kingdom includes: Lighthouse (if non-solo), Ambassador, Villa, City, Rogue, King's Court
Events: Bonfire, Ferry
Setup: -\$2 token on King's Court, all opponents defended, 2 piles empty

Hand: 2xKing's Court, 2xRogue, City, Villa*
Trash includes: 4xKing's Court, 4xRogue, 3xCity, Ambassador
*(The Villa is not in your hand at the very start of the turn, but it is there at the start of each subsequent cycle.)

ACTION PHASE
Play King's Court
-> Play King's Court
->> Play Rogue, gain King's Court (+\$2)
->> Replay Rogue, gain Rogue (+\$2)
->> Replay Rogue, gain City (+\$2)
-> Replay King's Court
->> Play City, draw King's Court, Rogue (+1 buy, +\$1)
->> Replay City, draw City (+1 buy, +\$1)
->> Replay City, draw nothing (+1 buy, +\$1)
-> Replay King's Court
->> Play King's Court
->>> Play Rogue, gain King's Court (+\$2)
->>> Replay Rogue, gain Rogue (+\$2)
->>> Replay Rogue, gain City (+\$2)
->> Replay King's Court
->>> Play City, draw King's Court, Rogue (+1 buy, +\$1)
->>> Replay City, draw City (+1 buy, +\$1)
->>> Replay City, draw nothing (+1 buy, +\$1)
->> Replay King's Court
->>> Play King's Court
->>>> Play Rogue, gain King's Court (+\$2)
->>>> Replay Rogue, gain King's Court (+\$2)
->>>> Replay Rogue, gain Rogue (+\$2)
->>> Replay King's Court
->>>> Play Rogue, gain Rogue (+\$2)
->>>> Replay Rogue, gain City (+\$2)
->>>> Replay Rogue, gain Ambassador (+\$2)
->>> Replay King's Court
->>>> Play City, draw 2xKing's Court (+1 buy, +\$1)
->>>> Replay City, draw 2xRogue (+1 buy, +\$1)

TOTAL ACCUMULATION PER CYCLE: \$12, 3 buys

I do realize this is messy as all hell. There was a version with only 2 King's Courts that was MUCH cleaner but it didn't accumulate buys (this was when I wanted to do an infinite turn challenge rather than an infinite coins/buys one). L3 Cities are perfect for this - you rack up coins and buys, draw everything you need, and the nonterminality means you don't need to use a KC slot on Ambassador. Do you guys think that's cheating though?

Here's an open-ended challenge for anyone who wants to try: Can you make this work without KC? I got REALLY close but there were roadblocks I couldn't get past without tripling. No need to satisfy any hard modes - just the main goal of (theoretically) infinite buying power.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Seprix on May 11, 2016, 10:53:30 pm
Probably possible with Crown.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: math on May 11, 2016, 10:55:41 pm
Probably possible with Crown.

You're never playing any Treasures, so Crown won't help; you could replace it with Throne Room and get the same result.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: trivialknot on May 12, 2016, 02:57:34 am
Here's an open-ended challenge for anyone who wants to try: Can you make this work without KC? I got REALLY close but there were roadblocks I couldn't get past without tripling. No need to satisfy any hard modes - just the main goal of (theoretically) infinite buying power.

The limiting factor is getting cards from play back into your hand.  You can do that by trashing the card and retrieving it from the trash with Rogue or Graverobber.  But every time you play Rogue or Graverobber, you've just put another card into play.  And if you throne a Rogue, you get two cards out of play, but you also put two into play.  Any combination of Rogues, Throne Rooms, Processions, Crowns, and Royal Carriages will never get more cards out of play than you put in.  Only King's Court.

But! Maybe Crown does provide an exception after all.  If you buy a Mandarin, that puts all treasures in play on top of your deck.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Elanchana on May 12, 2016, 12:28:48 pm
Here's an open-ended challenge for anyone who wants to try: Can you make this work without KC? I got REALLY close but there were roadblocks I couldn't get past without tripling. No need to satisfy any hard modes - just the main goal of (theoretically) infinite buying power.

The limiting factor is getting cards from play back into your hand.  You can do that by trashing the card and retrieving it from the trash with Rogue or Graverobber.  But every time you play Rogue or Graverobber, you've just put another card into play.  And if you throne a Rogue, you get two cards out of play, but you also put two into play.  Any combination of Rogues, Throne Rooms, Processions, Crowns, and Royal Carriages will never get more cards out of play than you put in.  Only King's Court.

But! Maybe Crown does provide an exception after all.  If you buy a Mandarin, that puts all treasures in play on top of your deck.
Hmmmm... Crown does sound like a possible workaround to the actions-in-play problem. And in that case you'd double Ambassador as well to put Villa AND Mandarin back (buying the Mandarin first later). Lemme pull out my unfinished Procession solution and try to get back to you on this...
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: majiponi on May 13, 2016, 03:31:56 am
LUNATIC MODE: 2-player game, your opponent tries to prevent your combo. (Your opponent won't play Lighthouse, reveal Moat.)
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: florrat on May 13, 2016, 02:09:31 pm
Lunatic mode: During a turn before you play your turn, play Masquerade, passing Champion, and play Possession. On the Possession turn, force him to play Champion. Now you can execute your turn as normal.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: majiponi on May 13, 2016, 08:04:09 pm
Lunatic mode: During a turn before you play your turn, play Masquerade, passing Champion, and play Possession. On the Possession turn, force him to play Champion. Now you can execute your turn as normal.
Excellent!
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: jomini on May 13, 2016, 11:16:53 pm
Doing this without Kc is not too bad with Crown:

Crown x[n] -> Rogue x [n] will let you gain back 2n cards and generate 4n in coin. Trashing the Rogues will cost a good bit of cash, but we can get extremely high cash from a few options: Scav -> Chouse, for instance, will let us draw all the coppers and keep play it for more coin (an Csmith can make this hundreds of coins easy). Drawing the gained cards is pretty simple with say Sroom (which also gives buys).

Crown x 10 -> Rogue x5 (gain 5 Rogues, Chouse, Amb, Sroom, XX) -> Chouse (draw 60 copper) -> Sroom (draw Villa, Mandarin, Rogue x5, Chouse, Amb, Sroom; discard coppers to discard) -> Amb (return Villa & Mandarin) -> X -> X

Buy phase: Tfairs, gain Mandarin (top deck Crowns), Bonfire (trash all 10 actions in play for \$25) -> gain Villa.

This then lets you play Chouse -> Sroom -> Crowns ...

If I have this right, you should then be able to have an exponentially increasing amount of cash (just let one of the X's be Csmith). Each iteration will increase the value of coppers and allow you to save more cash. This can also be unbounded for VP gain. Also, I think you may be able to bootstrap this up without Amb and everything in hand first, but being able to grow the combo with the initial Villa gains.

As far as doing this stuff quickly, well Kc versions will be far faster. I am guessing that my gain the whole kingdom in 5 turns with worst possible shuffle luck can be adapted here (open Tfair, curse x2, Baker/Borrow/Tfair/Quest/Alms for Gold + Dev to top deck, Dev to Kc -> Bom which can then spark off something like Prssn x3/Fort/Wt
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: ephesos on May 16, 2016, 09:01:29 am
Doesn't use Villa, but it's still infinite buys and coins.

Ferry on Crown

2 BoM's, Mandarin, Council Room in hand
4 BoM's, Mandarin, Roguex2, Council Room in deck
1 Rogue in trash
Chapel, Procession in supply, no cards costing 3 or 6 left(all Silver/Gold in trash)

Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Chapel trashing Mandarin
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Procession -> Council Room(drawing 4 BoM, Mandarin, Roguex2, Council Room)
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue gains Rogue and Council Room
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue gains Rogue and Mandarin, putting 4 BoM on deck
Play BoM as Crown
repeat

Alternate build with one less kingdom card, but no infinite buy:
Hand: BoM, Apprentice, Mandarin, Rogue
Deck: 4 BoM, 4 Rogue, Apprentice, Mandarin
Trash: 1 Rogue

Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Procession -> Apprentice(trashing Mandarin and Rogue, drawing 4 BoM, 4 Rogue, Apprentice, Mandarin)
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue, gaining Rogue and Apprentice
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue, gaining Roguex2
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue, gaining Rogue and Mandarin(putting 4 BoM on deck
Play BoM as Crown
repeat
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: math on May 16, 2016, 11:53:45 am
Doesn't use Villa, but it's still infinite buys and coins.

Ferry on Crown

2 BoM's, Mandarin, Council Room in hand
4 BoM's, Mandarin, Roguex2, Council Room in deck
1 Rogue in trash
Chapel, Procession in supply, no cards costing 3 or 6 left(all Silver/Gold in trash)

Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Chapel trashing Mandarin
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Procession -> Council Room(drawing 4 BoM, Mandarin, Roguex2, Council Room)
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue gains Rogue and Council Room
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue gains Rogue and Mandarin, putting 4 BoM on deck
Play BoM as Crown
repeat

Alternate build with one less kingdom card, but no infinite buy:
Hand: BoM, Apprentice, Mandarin, Rogue
Deck: 4 BoM, 4 Rogue, Apprentice, Mandarin
Trash: 1 Rogue

Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Procession -> Apprentice(trashing Mandarin and Rogue, drawing 4 BoM, 4 Rogue, Apprentice, Mandarin)
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue, gaining Rogue and Apprentice
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue, gaining Roguex2
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue, gaining Rogue and Mandarin(putting 4 BoM on deck
Play BoM as Crown
repeat

I could be missing something, but how did you play Band of Misfits as Chapel/Procession and then the same one as Crown?  Wouldn't it still be what it was the first time, since it hasn't left play?
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: ephesos on May 17, 2016, 01:31:21 am
I could be missing something, but how did you play Band of Misfits as Chapel/Procession and then the same one as Crown?  Wouldn't it still be what it was the first time, since it hasn't left play?

DXV went back and forth on this, but I think the current ruling is you "play" BoM each time it tells you to and not whatever card you turned it into, choosing a new card on the second and subsequent plays. This was because otherwise, putting a +1 Card token or other token on BoM would have undesired results with the second play not playing a "BoM". Unless he changed his mind again....

EDIT: Hmm, looking at the wiki, maybe I never really understood the ruling... Doesn't help that for a long time it worked the other way around. Okay, I guess you can only rechoose if you took it out of play?

In that case, maybe you can get all the Crowns out first, fetch the Mandarin, then use your now not-Crowns to choose things other than Crown? BoM is confusing...
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: ephesos on May 17, 2016, 01:54:03 am
Okay, new attempt:
Hand: 8 BoM, Rogue, Council Room
Deck: Council Roomx2, Roguex2
Trash: Rogue

Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Feast, gaining Mandarin(putting 7 "Crowns" on deck)
BoM trashed, can choose again: Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue gains BoM and Rogue
BoM in deck, can choose again: Play BoM as Procession -> Council Room(drawing 7 BoM, Council Room)
BoM in deck, can choose again: Play BoM as Procession -> Council Room(drawing Council Room, BoM, Roguex3, Mandarin, rest of deck empty)
BoM in deck, can choose again: Play BoM as Ambassador, returning Mandarin(other players Moat)
BoM in deck, can choose again: Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue gains Council Room x2
BoM in deck, can choose again: Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue gains Rogue x2
BoM in deck, could choose again: Play BoM as Crown
repeat from here

Also, I just realized how ridiculous this would be to explain when playing an actual game.

"Okay, you know that BoM I played 10 minutes ago? Yeah, the one in my deck. I'm going to play it again. Yes, of course I doubled it, just trust me."
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Elestan on May 17, 2016, 03:12:21 am
[stuff/]
Also, I just realized how ridiculous this would be to explain when playing an actual game.
"Okay, you know that BoM I played 10 minutes ago? Yeah, the one in my deck. I'm going to play it again. Yes, of course I doubled it, just trust me."

This thread would probably make an excellent source of test cases for the new Dominion client.  How would you make a UI that makes that sequence halfway understandable?
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Elanchana on May 18, 2016, 12:07:00 am
Wow, mind = blown. I didn't realize that Mandarin's effect was on-gain (I thought it was on-buy, guess it was easy to confuse since it used to be impossible to gain it with treasures in play without buying it). I'm still trying to wrap my head around all the things BoM can do. Forget Villa, THAT's a borked card right there.

Here's my attempt at a Villa loop with Crown:

Kingdom includes: Crown, Villa, Council Room, Rogue, Mandarin, Peasant, Lighthouse/Page, Ferry, Bonfire
Setup: +1 buy token on Council Room, +\$1 token on Rogue, -\$2 token on Mandarin, all opponents defended
Starting deck: 8xCrown, 2xCouncil Room, 3xRogue
Trash includes: 2xCouncil Room, 3xRogue, Ambassador

Quote from: First iteration
Hand includes 2xCrown, Council Room

Action Phase:
Play Crown
-> Play Crown
->> Play Council Room, draw half of deck (+2 buys)
->> Replay Council Room, draw rest of deck (hand is now 6xCrown, Council Room, 3xRogue) (+2 buys)
-> Replay Crown
->> Play Crown
->>> Play Rogue, gain Council Room (+\$3)
->>> Replay Rogue, gain Council Room (+\$3)
->> Replay Crown
->>> Play Crown
->>>> Play Rogue, gain Rogue (+\$3)
->>>> Replay Rogue, gain Rogue (+\$3)
->>> Replay Crown
->>>> Play Crown
->>>>> Play Rogue, gain Rogue (+\$3)
->>>>> Replay Rogue, gain Ambassador (+\$3)
->>>> Replay Crown
->>>>> Play Crown
->>>>>> Play Council Room, draw 4 cards (+2 buys)
->>>>>> Replay Council Room, draw 2 cards (hand is now 2xCrown, 2xCouncil Room, 3xRogue, Ambassador) (+2 buys)
->>>>> Replay Crown
->>>>>> Play Ambassador, reveal any card without returning
->>>>>> Replay Ambassador, reveal any card without returning

Hand is now 2xCrown, 2xCouncil Room, 3xRogue

Quote from: All subsequent iterations
Hand: 2xCrown, 2xCouncil Room, 3xRogue, Villa
Deck: 6xCrown

Action Phase:
Play Crown
-> Play Crown
->> Play Council Room, draw 4xCrown (+2 buys)
->> Replay Council Room, draw 2xCrown, Mandarin (hand is now 6xCrown, Council Room, 3xRogue, Villa, Mandarin) (+2 buys)
-> Replay Crown
->> Play Crown
->>> Play Rogue, gain Council Room (+\$3)
->>> Replay Rogue, gain Council Room (+\$3)
->> Replay Crown
->>> Play Crown
->>>> Play Rogue, gain Rogue (+\$3)
->>>> Replay Rogue, gain Rogue (+\$3)
->>> Replay Crown
->>>> Play Crown
->>>>> Play Rogue, gain Rogue (+\$3)
->>>>> Replay Rogue, gain Ambassador (+\$3)
->>>> Replay Crown
->>>>> Play Crown
->>>>>> Play Council Room, draw 4 cards (+2 buys)
->>>>>> Replay Council Room, draw 2 cards (hand is now 2xCrown, 2xCouncil Room, 3xRogue, Villa, Mandarin, Ambassador) (+2 buys)
->>>>> Replay Crown

Hand is now 2xCrown, 2xCouncil Room, 3xRogue

Not as satisfying without the level 3 Cities but I'm still glad I managed to find something. I thought this worked without Ferry (and it probably might with 10 Crowns???) but I math'd wrong. And it's still messy as all hell but my mind doesn't really do concise solutions like this.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: ConMan on May 18, 2016, 12:36:58 am
Wow, mind = blown. I didn't realize that Mandarin's effect was on-gain (I thought it was on-buy, guess it was easy to confuse since it used to be impossible to gain it with treasures in play without buying it). I'm still trying to wrap my head around all the things BoM can do. Forget Villa, THAT's a borked card right there.
Difficult and usually not useful, but not impossible. Just play Storyteller or Black Market followed by a suitable gainer. But the interaction between Crown and Mandarin is now more interesting as part of that effect.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Simon (DK) on May 18, 2016, 01:59:43 am
Wow, mind = blown. I didn't realize that Mandarin's effect was on-gain (I thought it was on-buy, guess it was easy to confuse since it used to be impossible to gain it with treasures in play without buying it). I'm still trying to wrap my head around all the things BoM can do. Forget Villa, THAT's a borked card right there.
Difficult and usually not useful, but not impossible. Just play Storyteller or Black Market followed by a suitable gainer. But the interaction between Crown and Mandarin is now more interesting as part of that effect.
Or gain it with Horn of Plenty.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: ephesos on May 20, 2016, 06:27:20 am
Hmmm, now I'm thinking the next question is can you get the infinite loop down to enough cards that you could realistically buy and play them all in a real game of Dominion, given the proper kingdom. Like, as a combo like King's Court Goons Masquerade.

Definitely can't use Ambassador then. Maybe something like:

Start with 5 BoM, Mandarin in hand, Rogue, Council Room in deck, Rogue in trash
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Raze(trashing Mandarin and itself, drawing 2 cards: Council Room and Rogue)
BoM trashed, can choose again: Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue gains BoM and Mandarin(putting 4 "Crowns" on deck)
Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue gains Rogue and Rogue
Play BoM as Procession -> Council Room drawing 8 cards: 2 Rogue, 5 BoM, Mandarin
Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue gains Rogue and Council Room
You get +2 actions from Raze and everything is back in hand, so you can do it again.

Okay, maybe you start off Ferry on BoM. Then you BoM as Ironworks/Workshop/other gainer for more BoM's and rush for half of them. Then, you use them as some form of engine, get a Rogue or two, move the Ferry to Crown, start doubling actions or Treasure, whatever gets you to 5. Get enough extra engine to draw out your deck(or trash it with Raze), and start the loop. I could see it possibly working out against someone who doesn't know what you're doing (And seriously, who knows what the heck you're doing?)
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: pitythefool on May 28, 2016, 04:09:11 pm
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Raze(trashing Mandarin and itself, drawing 2 cards: Council Room and Rogue)
BoM trashed, can choose again: Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue gains BoM and Mandarin(putting 4 "Crowns" on deck)

I hate to nitpick on something so brilliant, but you trashed two cards with the BoM as Raze.  Does this work?  If Raze trashes itself on the first play, then you can pick a different card for the second.  But you had to have picked Raze both times to trash two cards.  That BoM is trashed, but the previous BoM that Crowned it is not.  And because it was Crowned by the BoM before THAT, wouldn't it simply be forced to Crown another action card?
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: ephesos on May 30, 2016, 05:02:57 am
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Raze(trashing Mandarin and itself, drawing 2 cards: Council Room and Rogue)
BoM trashed, can choose again: Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue gains BoM and Mandarin(putting 4 "Crowns" on deck)

I hate to nitpick on something so brilliant, but you trashed two cards with the BoM as Raze.  Does this work?  If Raze trashes itself on the first play, then you can pick a different card for the second.  But you had to have picked Raze both times to trash two cards.  That BoM is trashed, but the previous BoM that Crowned it is not.  And because it was Crowned by the BoM before THAT, wouldn't it simply be forced to Crown another action card?
Oh shoot, you're right, I missed that, Raze shouldn't be doubled. I guess you just have a Mandarin in the trash, and can only BoM Raze for one card. Which throws off the whole thing, because you need to draw one more card and trash your Mandarin... it works out, but you need a lot more BoMs, pretty much exactly as many as the version that used Feast-Ambassador. Which was 8. Which is a lot to ask for in a game where splits are a thing.

The previous BoM, though, that is actually out of play, as long as you choose the second play of your BoM to be Rogue instead of Razing the Mandarin. So you do get to choose again.

I could switch to BoM as Envoy to cut down on other non-BoM cards needed to loop(BoM as 2xEnvoy instead of Procession Council Room and Rogue), but then you don't get buys. Which, you know, is important for winning and stuff. I guess add in another card like Trade Route, Salvager, or Forager to trash the Mandarin, then.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: ephesos on May 30, 2016, 05:20:00 am
At a certain point, I guess you just give up and say +1 Card token on BoM. So why not, +1 Card token on BoM, Ferry on Crown, and that's 2 Events.

Start with 6 BoM's in hand, 2 Rogues, Mandarin in deck, and Mandarin in trash.

Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Crown
Play BoM as Raze on itself
Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue(gaining Mandarin and BoM, putting 3 "Crowns" on deck)
Play BoM as Procession -> Rogue(gaining Roguex2)
Play BoM as trasher on Mandarin

At the end, you gained 7 cards(4 BoM, 2 Rogue, Mandarin), and drew 2 BoMs after you gained them. So with the 2 extra BoMs you have in hand, you can do the first 4 plays, and draw the remaining 5 cards in the process, with an extra draw left over.

Still optimizing down, but I guess that's 6 BoM's, 2 Rogues, and 2 Mandarins you need to start, along with buying Ferry and Pathfinding. Probably takes a decent number of turns to set up, but you have time while your opponent has to grab up half of the VP in the game, plus 1, which I think is either 7 Provinces or 6 Provinces, Duchy, Estate x2, which hopefully takes them a while. Sort of feel the urge to play it out at this point, and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: majiponi on October 06, 2016, 06:32:17 am
Mr. Ephesos gave me another puzzle. Maybe too easy.

Q. Earn 1 million coins from a SINGLE Copper.

A.
Quote
Kingdom: Overlord, Peasant, Raze, Coppersmith, Procession, Band of Misfits, Crown, Graverobber, Mandarin
(Italic cards can be in the Black Market deck)
Events: None

Setup: Put +1 Card token on Overlord, trash Graverobber and Mandarin
Deck: 5 Overlord, Band of Misfits, Graverobber, Copper

play Overlord as Crown
-------- play Band of Misfits as Raze (trash itself)
-------- play Band of Misfits as Procession
---------- play Graverobber (gain Graverobber)
---------- play Graverobber (gain Mandarin)
------ play Overload as Raze (trash Mandarin, put Graverobber into your hand)
---- play Graverobber (gain Graverobber)
---- play Graverobber (gain BoM)

repeat this 1 million times
play Copper

Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: Jasoba on October 06, 2016, 07:32:30 am

This thread would probably make an excellent source of test cases for the new Dominion client.  How would you make a UI that makes that sequence halfway understandable?

You dont; you rack up coins till integer overflow and end up crashing the game or at -64000\$
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: majiponi on November 04, 2016, 09:36:41 am
Fewer cards I have found to loop infinitely.
6 cards, no Event

Kingdom: Overlord, Lurker, Raze, Watchtower, Crown, Mandarin

Setup: trash Mandarin
Deck: 5 Overlord, 2 Watchtower

You have 2 Overlord and Watchtower in your hand.

play Overlord as Crown
---- play Watchtower
---- play Watchtower
-------- play Overlord as Raze (trash itself)
-------- play Overlord as Lurker (gain Mandarin, reveal Watchtower to trash)
------ play Overload as Lurker (gain Overlord)

Now you have 5 Overlord and Watchtower in your hand.

LOOP FROM HERE

play Overlord as Crown
-------- play Overlord as Raze (trash itself)
-------- play Overlord as Lurker (gain Mandarin, reveal Watchtower to trash)
------ play Overload as Lurker (gain Overlord)
---- play Overload as an Action costing up to \$5

LOOP END

Use Band of Misfits and Ferry instead of Overlord to make this more practical.
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: jonaskoelker on May 29, 2017, 10:04:07 pm
LUNATIC MODE: 2-player game, your opponent tries to prevent your combo. (Your opponent won't play Lighthouse, reveal Moat.)

I have a 2-player solution that requires no cooperation from my opponent (revealing Moat and such), except for not playing treasures and not buying anything. It does not involve Possession.

It was my personal goal to find a solution that didn't involve using Mandarin/Crown. I succeeded in that as well. Apart from not scaling to more players, I think this works in expert mode.

SPOILER WARNING: IT BEGINS HERE

There's an elaborate setup.

Phase 1: use Cutpurse, Masquerade and Thief to delete your opponent's deck.

Play Cutpurse until they reveal a hand with no copper; then, for each estate in their hand, do the following:
play Masquerade, pass Copper, receive Estate (no other choice), trash the Estate
play Cutpurse to make them discard the copper (makes "no other choice" remain true)

Then play Pirate Ship to trash some of their coppers. Eventually they will have nothing left.

(For convenience, you can pass them your estates the first three times if you like.)

Phase 2:
Repeatedly Ambassador them a Copper, then trash it with Pirate Ship. (This is to increase Pirate Ship's value.)
When Pirate Ship is big enough, pass them your last Copper.

Phase 3:
You're ready! In addition to the action cards in the main loop below, your deck should also contain 2xVilla and a Scrying Pool. There should also be something in the trash (below).

Main loop:
Scrying Pool, drawing your deck (including a second Scrying Pool)
King's Court on King's Court on 3xLurker
King's Court on King's Court on 2xLurker and one payload action (the first time, the payload will be Pirate Ship)
Thief (you trash and gain their Copper)
Ambassador on 2xVilla (one goes to the supply, the other to their hand)
Masquerade, drawing a Copper, passing it and receiving a Villa.
Buy Travelling Fair 9 times (\$18)
Buy Bonfire 8 times (\$24), trash all the cards you played in this iteration.

The total cost of this is \$46; to pay for this we have \$2 from Cutpurse and \$15 or more per Pirate Ship. IIRC there are 60 Coppers minus starting decks in the supply, so there's no risk of running out before Pirate Ship gets there.

Counting carefully, you play 15 action cards and play Lurker 15 times. Before the first iteration, the trash should contain a copy of each card you play in the first iteration, which you will regain with Lurker. On subsequent iterations, you will regain the cards you played in the previous iteration, except you may choose which payload card to regain if there are multiple payload cards in the trash.

Note that this requires 5 Lurkers to be in the trash and 5 in your deck, leaving none in the supply. In other words, there's very little room to add things to the infrastructure bit of the loop.

However, you can repeat the loop with Pirate Ship as the payload any number of times to rack up any amount of money. Using Travelling Fair, you can empty all the piles.

You can also save up \$46 to afford an iteration with a different payload card. If you omit the payload card (King's Court says you *may* play an action card thrice), you use 14 action cards to generate 15 Lurker plays, effectively making the last Lurker play your payload. (Instead of omitting a card to KC, you can also Throne Room a King's Court on 2xLurker if you like).

Kingdom, by cost:
2: Lurker
2p: Scrying Pool
4: Cutpurse, Thief, Pirate Ship, Villa
7: King's Court
Events/Landmarks: Bonfire, Travelling Fair

Note that this is a 9-card kingdom. You can either add a convenience card or an alternative payload. I like Scheme and Monument here.

So, that was feasibility. Future work is playtesting against Masquerade/BM to see how strong this is :D

(I guess that with Scheme, setting up the pin is enough to basically guarantee a win: simply trash your opponent's deck and all the Coppers, and they'll be helpless. Scheme'ing 2xKC+3xPool should make your deck remain reliable with up to 8 Provinces in it. So I don't think going infinite is strategically relevant on this board. But it's possible.)

I hope you enjoyed :)
Title: Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
Post by: jonaskoelker on September 13, 2020, 03:53:33 pm
I'm not sure my 9-card loop was ever that useful, but I like it and I have an update I want to share: it can be done using only second edition cards, i.e. without Thief. In particular, Treasurer can get back the copper you send. Also, as an optimization, by alternating Pirate Ship and Treasurer as kinging targets, you need one less Lurker.

Here's the kingdom:
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Monument.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Pirate Ship.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Villa.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Treasurer.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=King's Court.jpg)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Bonfire.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Travelling Fair.jpg)

The setup is still equally ridiculous: empty their deck and get enough tokens on Pirate Ship. Have no non-actions in your deck, i.e. Masquerade your estates and either Bonfire your potion or gain Scrying Pool with Lurker. Have at least 3xCopper in the trash.

To kick off, play Scrying Pool to draw your deck, then King's Court on King's Court, kinging Treasurer for 3xCopper from the trash, Ambassador to also give your opponent three coppers, and a third (kinged) King's Court which begins the loop.

The loop is:
King a King's Court which kings a King's Court (yo dawg), kinging 4xLurker and a payload card.
Masquerade giving Copper and receiving Villa.
Cutpurse to make them discard the copper
Bonfire all the cards, using Travelling Fair to get enough buys
Scrying Pool to draw the second set of cards you gained with all the Lurker plays.

Cards played: 3xKC, 4xLurker, Payload, Ambassador, Masquerade, Cutpurse, Scrying Pool; 12 in total, which is how I cut out a Lurker.

The payload is initially a Pirate Ship large enough to afford three iterations of the loop when kinged (i.e. a single play affords a single iteration), then Pirate Ship for the trashing attack on the second iteration (putting 3xCopper in the trash), then Treasurer gaining 3xCopper from the trash.

The three-phased nature of the loop is why you gave them 3xCopper with Ambassador: that way the Pirate Ship attack trashes 3xCopper, the Treasurer gains 3xCopper and your Masquerade gives them 3xCopper.

Over the course of three loops, Pirate Ship gets an additional three tokens. It eventually becomes big enough to afford two/six iterations of the loop. Once that happens, on every third iteration you can alternate between playing Pirate Ship for the money and some other payload card. As before, you can omit the payload card to effectively payload a Lurker.

Alternatively you can add a fifth Lurker and play Treasurer and a second Pirate Ship every iteration. Then the Pirate Ship for money can get away with about a third of the tokens.

With the 12-card loop, you need \$4 for Villa plus \$18 for 6xBonfire plus \$14 for 7xTravelling Fair, i.e. \$36, so that's how big your Pirate Ship needs to be (except Cutpurse chips in \$2 and Treasurer chips in \$3).

Also, by my count you need 4 King's Courts to kick off and 3 on every iteration, which you Bonfire. That leaves one in play. If you played an odd number of cards (to payload Lurker), Bonfire the extra King's Court. The next time you play an odd number of cards, leave a King's Court in play and gain the extra King's Court from the trash. That is, you can alternate between trashing one card more and one card less than you played.

Note the beautifully interlocking gears of circular card flow:

• 2xVilla in your hand -> 1 in supply, 1 in opponent's hand -> 1 in supply, 1 in your hand -> 2 in your hand.
• 3xCopper in your hand -> opponent's hand -> opponent's discard -> trash -> your hand. Coppers leave your hand and your opponent's hand one by one, then go from discard to trash to your hand in batches of 3.
• One set of action cards in play, one in the trash -> 1 in play, 1 in discard -> 1 in trash, 1 in discard -> 1 in hand, 1 in trash -> 1 in play, 1 in trash.

The Monument is there just because I like it as a payload card.