Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion: Nocturne Previews => Dominion: Renaissance Previews => Dominion General Discussion => Empires Previews => Topic started by: jsh357 on May 09, 2016, 02:15:46 pm

Title: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: jsh357 on May 09, 2016, 02:15:46 pm
We've seen debt; we've had our minds expanded. Let's take a look at something completely different.

(http://i.imgur.com/Gc1T1RG.png)

It happens to the best of us. You play that Smithy with no action left, thinking "what could possibly go wrong?" and curse your rotten luck when two Action cards pop into your hand. "If only I could turn back time," you say. Well, buckle your seatbelt because where we're going, we don't need Villages. A Villa will do nicely enough.

Villa is a brand new type of Village to populate your empire with. The natives are restless, and they simply don't want your turns to end. Maybe the other players do, but you don't care; you're impressing them with your fancy action chain. Aside from being able to continue your turn, you of course gain the Villa itself, and maybe you needed one of those. I'm not judging. With Villa, the possibilities are endless. Or perhaps only tenfold, as the pile has to empty at some point.

As long as there are Villas left in the pile, you always have that shot at continuing your turn. And you can do it more than once in the same turn! Wow! The rulebook can't actually cover all possible turn order acronyms now. ABCD... ABABACD... ABABABABABABABCD... the list goes on, and that would have been valuable ink. Of course, as an emperor, you've begun to develop some higher-order critical thinking skills. I'm sure you can come up with your own mnemonic devices, or defer to your Mnemonic Advisor.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Watno on May 09, 2016, 02:18:26 pm
This looks awesome!
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Davio on May 09, 2016, 02:19:40 pm
Wow it will take a couple of days for my mind to adjust to the phase shifting.

Quick note: the Black Market phase is an action phase not an extra buy phase, not that it actually matters.

Pretty cool idea no more drawing dead cards if you have at least $4.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: McGarnacle on May 09, 2016, 02:20:20 pm
Seems like a really good deal for $4.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: RevanFan on May 09, 2016, 02:20:31 pm
My core gaming group already thinks my turns are way too long. This will drive them nuts. I'm very happy right now.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: faust on May 09, 2016, 02:23:05 pm
Prediction: This card will enable Celestial Chameleon to empty the supply on turn 1 (single player).
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: J Reggie on May 09, 2016, 02:23:17 pm
This must be Elanchana's favorite card (rhymes with vanilla). And I was so sure it would be "flotilla". Oh well.

If you get this to cost 0, can't you insta-pile them?
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Elestan on May 09, 2016, 02:24:28 pm
We've seen debt; we've had our minds expanded.

IMHO, this is the most head-exploding card in Empires.  Breaking the phase ordering assumptions opens up so many new edge cases...it's wonderful.  :-)
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Elestan on May 09, 2016, 02:26:27 pm
If you get this to cost 0, can't you insta-pile them?

Yes.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: werothegreat on May 09, 2016, 02:27:16 pm
I seem to remember some discussion in the Variants subforum about a card that returns you to your Action phase...
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: GendoIkari on May 09, 2016, 02:28:29 pm
Holy crap. So many times a fan card has tried "return to your action phase". And so many times it has been shot down by me and others as a bad idea. I'm really not sure how I feel about it being done. The fact that it's done on an official card instead of a fan card doesn't automatically make it a better idea, but on the other hand it does mean that people who know way more than I do about what is or isn't a good idea think it's ok.

Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Voltaire on May 09, 2016, 02:30:00 pm
I hate (high-skill, lengthy) Engines. I love this card anyway.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Ankenaut on May 09, 2016, 02:31:41 pm
I seem to remember some discussion in the Variants subforum about a card that returns you to your Action phase...

Yes, it was a heated discussion. I proposed a reaction  village you could play if you drew it dead, which was an idea a lot of people had previously. So people started talking about all these others, one of which returned you to your Action phase, and some other people really really hated the idea of returning to your Action phase. Since Villa happens when you gain it, it may be even easier to do, though (usually) limited in the number of times per game.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: LastFootnote on May 09, 2016, 02:33:19 pm
Holy crap. So many times a fan card has tried "return to your action phase". And so many times it has been shot down by me and others as a bad idea. I'm really not sure how I feel about it being done. The fact that it's done on an official card instead of a fan card doesn't automatically make it a better idea, but on the other hand it does mean that people who know way more than I do about what is or isn't a good idea think it's ok.

Returning to your Action phase when you gain a card is a lot different than returning to your Action phase when you e.g play a Treasure card.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Emeric on May 09, 2016, 02:33:45 pm
Seaway + Villa + Peddler + Quarry => Quick game !
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: faust on May 09, 2016, 02:34:55 pm
There is some fun megaturn potential with Ambassador hidden in here.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Kirian on May 09, 2016, 02:35:59 pm
So many fan cards just kept trying to do this... but not in this way, which is interesting.

And I think we can use [AB]nCD for phase ordering.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: SCSN on May 09, 2016, 02:36:14 pm
Holy crap. So many times a fan card has tried "return to your action phase". And so many times it has been shot down by me and others as a bad idea. I'm really not sure how I feel about it being done. The fact that it's done on an official card instead of a fan card doesn't automatically make it a better idea, but on the other hand it does mean that people who know way more than I do about what is or isn't a good idea think it's ok.

I've played with it alot and Villa is my 2nd favorite card in the entire game.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Chris is me on May 09, 2016, 02:36:36 pm
I think the on gain effect is going to be used a bit more than Inn is, but much like Inn, it's going to be a card that you buy as a regular Village in addition to the on gain effect. So you'll buy it even when you can't continue your turn, and there may even be incentive to drain the pile quickly so your opponent can't bail themselves out.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: math on May 09, 2016, 02:40:01 pm
Wow. Just wow.  This card is mind-blowing.

This card says "$4" on it, but as long as you have $4 it actually costs only $3, and it doesn't cost a buy.

I can already see a potential combo with Champion.  This will make it much easier to load up on terminal draw cards before playing the Champion.  Normally that's risky because you can draw the Traveller dead, but with Villa in the supply, that problem is completely eliminated.  Just play your terminal draw card; if you don't draw the Traveller, you got some cycling to see it sooner; if you draw the Traveller, buy Villa and play the Traveller.

Also, this completely eliminates the need to balance buying your splitters and your terminal draw; just buy all your terminal draw first, then buy Villas when they collide.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: McGarnacle on May 09, 2016, 02:42:45 pm
I seem to remember some discussion in the Variants subforum about a card that returns you to your Action phase...

Yes, it was a heated discussion. I proposed a reaction  village you could play if you drew it dead, which was an idea a lot of people had previously. So people started talking about all these others, one of which returned you to your Action phase, and some other people really really hated the idea of returning to your Action phase. Since Villa happens when you gain it, it may be even easier to do, though (usually) limited in the number of times per game.

Ankenaut, did you just change your avatar to a card which has been out for like, 3 hours?
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Seprix on May 09, 2016, 02:43:34 pm
I can't see the card, because it is hosted on Imgur, and Imgur is blocked on my ISP. :(
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: faust on May 09, 2016, 02:44:45 pm
The thing I like best about Villa is how, after running out of prefixes for Villages (Worker's, Fishing etc.), Donald simply decided to cut the last two letters.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: werothegreat on May 09, 2016, 02:46:31 pm
I can't see the card, because it is hosted on Imgur, and Imgur is blocked on my ISP. :(

It's up on the wiki now.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: LastFootnote on May 09, 2016, 02:46:36 pm
I can't see the card, because it is hosted on Imgur, and Imgur is blocked on my ISP. :(

Does your ISP also block boardgamegeek.com? If not, you can see it over there.

EDIT: Saved by wero!
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Seprix on May 09, 2016, 02:47:17 pm
The thing I like best about Villa is how, after running out of prefixes for Villages (Worker's, Fishing etc.), Donald simply decided to cut the last two letters.

A Villa is a real thing. It's in tune with Donald's Roman theme: a large country house of Roman times, having an estate and consisting of farm and residential buildings arranged around a courtyard. So Courtyard combos with Villa!
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: ben_king on May 09, 2016, 02:47:35 pm
You always need to watch out for Villa pileouts.  They sneak up on you.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Seprix on May 09, 2016, 02:50:35 pm
I can't see the card, because it is hosted on Imgur, and Imgur is blocked on my ISP. :(

Does your ISP also block boardgamegeek.com? If not, you can see it over there.

EDIT: Saved by wero!

No, it doesn't. However, no one has posted Villa on BGG yet.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Marcory on May 09, 2016, 02:52:35 pm
The thing I like best about Villa is how, after running out of prefixes for Villages (Worker's, Fishing etc.), Donald simply decided to cut the last two letters.

The other small habitations were apparently produced by GE. Now they have a new supplier, apparently, so they've gone with the unbranded version.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Nflickner on May 09, 2016, 02:56:43 pm
Holy crap. So many times a fan card has tried "return to your action phase". And so many times it has been shot down by me and others as a bad idea. I'm really not sure how I feel about it being done. The fact that it's done on an official card instead of a fan card doesn't automatically make it a better idea, but on the other hand it does mean that people who know way more than I do about what is or isn't a good idea think it's ok.

I've played with it alot and Villa is my 2nd favorite card in the entire game.
What is your favorite card in the whole game?
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: singletee on May 09, 2016, 02:56:49 pm
This must be Elanchana's favorite card (rhymes with vanilla). And I was so sure it would be "flotilla". Oh well.

If you get this to cost 0, can't you insta-pile them?

Since it gives a coin, you only need to get it to $1.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: jsh357 on May 09, 2016, 03:01:48 pm
Holy crap. So many times a fan card has tried "return to your action phase". And so many times it has been shot down by me and others as a bad idea. I'm really not sure how I feel about it being done. The fact that it's done on an official card instead of a fan card doesn't automatically make it a better idea, but on the other hand it does mean that people who know way more than I do about what is or isn't a good idea think it's ok.

I've played with it alot and Villa is my 2nd favorite card in the entire game.
What is your favorite card in the whole game?
Silver
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Ankenaut on May 09, 2016, 03:03:15 pm
I seem to remember some discussion in the Variants subforum about a card that returns you to your Action phase...

Yes, it was a heated discussion. I proposed a reaction  village you could play if you drew it dead, which was an idea a lot of people had previously. So people started talking about all these others, one of which returned you to your Action phase, and some other people really really hated the idea of returning to your Action phase. Since Villa happens when you gain it, it may be even easier to do, though (usually) limited in the number of times per game.

Ankenaut, did you just change your avatar to a card which has been out for like, 3 hours?

Heck yeah. A lot of the good Avatars are already taken, and I'm pretty new here, so my plan was to pounce on any good ones from Empires. I really like this guy's look.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Seprix on May 09, 2016, 03:04:20 pm
I seem to remember some discussion in the Variants subforum about a card that returns you to your Action phase...

Yes, it was a heated discussion. I proposed a reaction  village you could play if you drew it dead, which was an idea a lot of people had previously. So people started talking about all these others, one of which returned you to your Action phase, and some other people really really hated the idea of returning to your Action phase. Since Villa happens when you gain it, it may be even easier to do, though (usually) limited in the number of times per game.

Ankenaut, did you just change your avatar to a card which has been out for like, 3 hours?

Heck yeah. A lot of the good Avatars are already taken, and I'm pretty new here, so my plan was to pounce on any good ones from Empires. I really like this guy's look.

There are plenty of great Adventures avatars that I uploaded that have not been taken at all, if you want to go look.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: pacovf on May 09, 2016, 03:07:28 pm
Villa + Watchtower... The ride never ends.

EDIT: I guess at some point all your cards will be in play and that will be it though. (Except with further edge cases)
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: DG on May 09, 2016, 03:15:24 pm
With empires it is now possible to become the villa idiot.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: faust on May 09, 2016, 03:17:49 pm
Villa + Watchtower... The ride never ends.

EDIT: I guess at some point all your cards will be in play and that will be it though. (Except with further edge cases)

Well, you can always buy new cards and topdeck them before buying Villa. The supply is finite though.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: ben_king on May 09, 2016, 03:18:42 pm
One thing that wasn't quite clear to me was this:

Suppose you buy Villa when you only have one buy.  When you return to your action phase, before you play Villa, do you temporarily have 0 buys?  Playing Villa then gets you a single buy to use when go to your buy phase a second time?
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Seprix on May 09, 2016, 03:19:12 pm
With empires it is now possible to become the villa idiot.

You are correct.

The same pitfall that trapped people into buying too many Villages and trapped many people into buying too many Universities will now trap people into buying too many Villas.

The lack of drawing power by Villa makes Villa almost strictly worse than Village, but it's +Buy and +$1 in addition to it's ability to continue a turn make it alright.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Seprix on May 09, 2016, 03:20:11 pm
One thing that wasn't quite clear to me was this:

Suppose you buy Villa when you only have one buy.  When you return to your action phase, before you play Villa, do you temporarily have 0 buys?  Playing Villa then gets you a single buy to use when go to your buy phase a second time?

I'm positive the answer to this is yes.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Deadlock39 on May 09, 2016, 03:24:41 pm
This card is awesome.

My favorite trick of all the crazy ones I've seen is:
"All these stupid Coppers in my hand make my Menageries sad... I guess I'll just end my Action phase, play them and buy a Villa.  Problem solved."
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Elestan on May 09, 2016, 03:25:05 pm
Suppose you buy Villa when you only have one buy.  When you return to your action phase, before you play Villa, do you temporarily have 0 buys?  Playing Villa then gets you a single buy to use when go to your buy phase a second time?

Correct.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: werothegreat on May 09, 2016, 03:26:11 pm
One thing that wasn't quite clear to me was this:

Suppose you buy Villa when you only have one buy.  When you return to your action phase, before you play Villa, do you temporarily have 0 buys?  Playing Villa then gets you a single buy to use when go to your buy phase a second time?

I'm reasonably certain you get handed a free Buy when you enter your Buy phase.  So if you play Villa, then go to your Buy phase again, you should have 2 Buys.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Ankenaut on May 09, 2016, 03:28:15 pm
I seem to remember some discussion in the Variants subforum about a card that returns you to your Action phase...

Yes, it was a heated discussion. I proposed a reaction  village you could play if you drew it dead, which was an idea a lot of people had previously. So people started talking about all these others, one of which returned you to your Action phase, and some other people really really hated the idea of returning to your Action phase. Since Villa happens when you gain it, it may be even easier to do, though (usually) limited in the number of times per game.

Ankenaut, did you just change your avatar to a card which has been out for like, 3 hours?

Heck yeah. A lot of the good Avatars are already taken, and I'm pretty new here, so my plan was to pounce on any good ones from Empires. I really like this guy's look.

There are plenty of great Adventures avatars that I uploaded that have not been taken at all, if you want to go look.

Uploaded where?
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Donald X. on May 09, 2016, 03:28:44 pm
One thing that wasn't quite clear to me was this:

Suppose you buy Villa when you only have one buy.  When you return to your action phase, before you play Villa, do you temporarily have 0 buys?  Playing Villa then gets you a single buy to use when go to your buy phase a second time?

I'm reasonably certain you get handed a free Buy when you enter your Buy phase.  So if you play Villa, then go to your Buy phase again, you should have 2 Buys.
No, ben_king has it right. Your turn comes with an Action and a Buy, the individual phases do not.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Beyond Awesome on May 09, 2016, 03:29:21 pm
One thing that wasn't quite clear to me was this:

Suppose you buy Villa when you only have one buy.  When you return to your action phase, before you play Villa, do you temporarily have 0 buys?  Playing Villa then gets you a single buy to use when go to your buy phase a second time?

I'm reasonably certain you get handed a free Buy when you enter your Buy phase.  So if you play Villa, then go to your Buy phase again, you should have 2 Buys.

No. You don't get additional buys unless you play Villa. You still get your normal Buy and that's it.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: werothegreat on May 09, 2016, 03:30:55 pm
One thing that wasn't quite clear to me was this:

Suppose you buy Villa when you only have one buy.  When you return to your action phase, before you play Villa, do you temporarily have 0 buys?  Playing Villa then gets you a single buy to use when go to your buy phase a second time?

I'm reasonably certain you get handed a free Buy when you enter your Buy phase.  So if you play Villa, then go to your Buy phase again, you should have 2 Buys.
No, ben_king has it right. Your turn comes with an Action and a Buy, the individual phases do not.

I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Seprix on May 09, 2016, 03:32:37 pm
Buying Villa is now another way to get to playing your Treasures during your Action phase. Horn of Plenty gains are possible mid-turn because of this, but of course there's the big winner here: Tactician.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: markusin on May 09, 2016, 03:37:46 pm
One thing that wasn't quite clear to me was this:

Suppose you buy Villa when you only have one buy.  When you return to your action phase, before you play Villa, do you temporarily have 0 buys?  Playing Villa then gets you a single buy to use when go to your buy phase a second time?

I'm reasonably certain you get handed a free Buy when you enter your Buy phase.  So if you play Villa, then go to your Buy phase again, you should have 2 Buys.
No, ben_king has it right. Your turn comes with an Action and a Buy, the individual phases do not.

I stand corrected.
Aww and here I was thinking this could be used as a $4 Travelling Fair.

Still a crazy card though, and like that the top part is vanilla. Vanilla Villa. Heh.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: GendoIkari on May 09, 2016, 03:44:08 pm
One thing that wasn't quite clear to me was this:

Suppose you buy Villa when you only have one buy.  When you return to your action phase, before you play Villa, do you temporarily have 0 buys?  Playing Villa then gets you a single buy to use when go to your buy phase a second time?

I'm reasonably certain you get handed a free Buy when you enter your Buy phase.  So if you play Villa, then go to your Buy phase again, you should have 2 Buys.
No, ben_king has it right. Your turn comes with an Action and a Buy, the individual phases do not.

I stand corrected.

And this is the reason why I've opposed this mechanic in the past. People will think that returning to their action phase means that they now have an action (in addition to the 1 provided when you gain Villa). Same with returning to your buy phase. Of course the rules will help make this explicit; but it's just completely intuitive. But hey, I think we must accept that Dominion will grow in complexity and interactions.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Witherweaver on May 09, 2016, 03:46:43 pm
I initially thought jsh was just messing with us.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Burning Skull on May 09, 2016, 03:57:20 pm
Also, it's a +3 Actions village if you gain it midturn (or mid action phase, as we should now say).
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: King Leon on May 09, 2016, 04:04:37 pm
This card works great with Library or Minion. Play all your money, buy Villa, play Library/Minion, continue ...
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Willvon on May 09, 2016, 04:22:31 pm
One thing that wasn't quite clear to me was this:

Suppose you buy Villa when you only have one buy.  When you return to your action phase, before you play Villa, do you temporarily have 0 buys?  Playing Villa then gets you a single buy to use when go to your buy phase a second time?

I'm reasonably certain you get handed a free Buy when you enter your Buy phase.  So if you play Villa, then go to your Buy phase again, you should have 2 Buys.
No, ben_king has it right. Your turn comes with an Action and a Buy, the individual phases do not.

I stand corrected.

Unless of course you were sitting at the time. If so, then you actually sit corrected.

Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: ced on May 09, 2016, 04:40:20 pm
The best combo is probably draw-to-X engines. You can buy a bunch of Watchtowers, then as soon as one lines up with $4, you can buy Villa, go back and play the Watchtower, and repeat to draw your deck. Once you've run the Villas out, you have a semi-decent draw-to-X engine built. You certainly need a strong payload/attack that you can pick up early for this to be viable, though - just playing out a bunch of coppers every turn is not worth it.

The other main use is just avoiding terminal collision in slower money-ish games. Stuff like colliding Mountebanks that usually feels so bad now has an answer. You really don't want to overdo buying these in such decks, though - the top half of the card would be an underwhelming 3 and will often end up being a Copper.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: DoomYoshi on May 09, 2016, 04:45:03 pm
With empires it is now possible to become the villa idiot.

And the City Quarter idiot doesn't have quite the same ring to it...
[turn 1 buy FTW]
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Titandrake on May 09, 2016, 04:51:01 pm
I actually freaked out in real life. I have absolutely no idea how this plays and that's great.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Emeric on May 09, 2016, 05:17:51 pm
This card works great with Library or Minion. Play all your money, buy Villa, play Library/Minion, continue ...
This card works great with Tactician !
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: flaquito on May 09, 2016, 05:29:38 pm
This card works great with Library or Minion. Play all your money, buy Villa, play Library/Minion, continue ...
This card works great with Tactician !

Almost certainly useful here and there, but the idea of trying to build an engine that requires the purchase of a particular card to trigger terrifies me. Knowing that my opponent could run out the pile to kill my engine, and that even if he doesn't, I've only got a limited number of triggers anyway, isn't a good thought. Now, throw in an Ambassador to resupply it, and you may have something. It's still probably more finicky than Black Market + Tactician, but it's still pretty cool to see another way to get money in play and still be able to play Tactician.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: -Stef- on May 09, 2016, 06:22:44 pm
Best. Designed. Card. Ever.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: werothegreat on May 09, 2016, 06:32:12 pm
Best. Designed. Card. Ever.

Have you already implemented it in Dom2017?
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: assemble_me on May 09, 2016, 06:35:55 pm
Best. Designed. Card. Ever.

Have you already implemented it in Dom2017?

They have.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: eHalcyon on May 09, 2016, 06:56:51 pm
I like that the "return to your action phase" is an on-gain effect.  This sets it apart from CotR, which covers similar territory, which is the main reason I've been sceptical of "return to action phase" fan cards.

The other reason is the potential rules confusion, which has already come up in this thread.  But oh well, some confusion is inevitable with every new expansion.

The lack of drawing power by Villa makes Villa almost strictly worse than Village, but it's +Buy and +$1 in addition to it's ability to continue a turn make it alright.

"+1 card" vs. "+$1, +1 buy" is already a big enough difference that it's not at all close to strictly worse, and that's before accounting for the huge impact of the on-gain effect.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: werothegreat on May 09, 2016, 09:04:24 pm
Best. Designed. Card. Ever.

Have you already implemented it in Dom2017?

They have.

It seems like half this forum is playtesters sometimes.  Makes me raspberry jelly.  :(
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Orange on May 09, 2016, 09:09:33 pm
Best. Designed. Card. Ever.

Have you already implemented it in Dom2017?

They have.

It seems like half this forum is playtesters sometimes.  Makes me raspberry jelly.  :(

Amen.  I know they are trying to be helpful, but comments that refer to the knowledge gained in playtesting rub me the wrong way.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: trivialknot on May 09, 2016, 09:17:48 pm
Messenger - Villa!  Return to your action phase while handing out junk.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Seprix on May 09, 2016, 09:18:41 pm
Best. Designed. Card. Ever.

Have you already implemented it in Dom2017?

They have.

It seems like half this forum is playtesters sometimes.  Makes me raspberry jelly.  :(

*hint hint* :)
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Ankenaut on May 09, 2016, 09:21:03 pm
Best. Designed. Card. Ever.

Have you already implemented it in Dom2017?

They have.

It seems like half this forum is playtesters sometimes.  Makes me raspberry jelly.  :(

Amen.  I know they are trying to be helpful, but comments that refer to the knowledge gained in playtesting rub me the wrong way.

Me too. I suggest that when making comments like this in the future, you lie and instead say "so, I just played a bunch of games with this card (using a proxy of course), and here's the insight I gained from actually playing it:"
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: jsh357 on May 09, 2016, 09:29:38 pm
Best. Designed. Card. Ever.

Have you already implemented it in Dom2017?

They have.

It seems like half this forum is playtesters sometimes.  Makes me raspberry jelly.  :(

Amen.  I know they are trying to be helpful, but comments that refer to the knowledge gained in playtesting rub me the wrong way.

What should playtesters do to improve the experience for you? I get the frustration, but I mean, obviously not everyone is going to be involved in everything. We can just not post, but is that truly better? I have been trying to post less about stuff this time around myself (because of similar feelings expressed) and tell more jokes instead, but you can't expect that from every tester.

Admittedly, this is owing in part to the fact that I didn't test during all of Empires' development and am actually looking forward to playing with many of the cards myself before making too many claims.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: crj on May 09, 2016, 09:39:23 pm
The thing I like best about Villa is how, after running out of prefixes for Villages (Worker's, Fishing etc.), Donald simply decided to cut the last two letters.
Next set will have "Ill"?
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Elanchana on May 09, 2016, 10:10:37 pm
This must be Elanchana's favorite card (rhymes with vanilla). And I was so sure it would be "flotilla". Oh well.

You are absolutely correct. This is my favorite card that I got to playtest. Protip: Put your +1 card token on it for serious awesome. That's what I did and I won by a landslide.

So yeah, Villa is epic. Just how epic, you ask? Click here... (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15366.0)
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: SirSlugma on May 09, 2016, 10:22:58 pm
Villa makes your brain explode when you first see it, and there are a lot of neat tricks, but like most well-designed cards, it's not too bonkers-crazy when in (most?) real game scenarios.  Tactically picking them up to continue dead turns is pretty awesome.  I could see this getting really wacky with KC shenanigans.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Kirian on May 09, 2016, 11:05:11 pm
If I use Ambassador or Messenger to give Villas to other players, it goes into their hands, yes?
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Orange on May 09, 2016, 11:06:46 pm
Best. Designed. Card. Ever.

Have you already implemented it in Dom2017?

They have.

It seems like half this forum is playtesters sometimes.  Makes me raspberry jelly.  :(

Amen.  I know they are trying to be helpful, but comments that refer to the knowledge gained in playtesting rub me the wrong way.

What should playtesters do to improve the experience for you? I get the frustration, but I mean, obviously not everyone is going to be involved in everything. We can just not post, but is that truly better? I have been trying to post less about stuff this time around myself (because of similar feelings expressed) and tell more jokes instead, but you can't expect that from every tester.

Admittedly, this is owing in part to the fact that I didn't test during all of Empires' development and am actually looking forward to playing with many of the cards myself before making too many claims.

Probably nothing.  It's my flaw, not the playtesters'.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Elanchana on May 09, 2016, 11:08:52 pm
If I use Ambassador or Messenger to give Villas to other players, it goes into their hands, yes?

AND THEN EVERYONE GETS AN ACTION PHASE AT THE SAME TIME RAAAAAAH MASS INSANITY

Ahem. I think that's what happens (besides my addition). So that's a pretty bad idea. <.<
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Elestan on May 09, 2016, 11:16:22 pm
AND THEN EVERYONE GETS AN ACTION PHASE AT THE SAME TIME RAAAAAAH MASS INSANITY

Ahem. I think that's what happens (besides my addition). So that's a pretty bad idea. <.<

It's already established from Caravan Guard that Actions gained out of turn do nothing.  And since it's not the other players' Buy phases, the "Return to Action phase" clause does not trigger.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Elanchana on May 09, 2016, 11:19:20 pm
AND THEN EVERYONE GETS AN ACTION PHASE AT THE SAME TIME RAAAAAAH MASS INSANITY

Ahem. I think that's what happens (besides my addition). So that's a pretty bad idea. <.<

It's already established from Caravan Guard that Actions gained out of turn do nothing.  And since it's not the other players' Buy phases, the "Return to Action phase" clause does not trigger.

"besides my addition"
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: LastFootnote on May 09, 2016, 11:30:21 pm
It seems like half this forum is playtesters sometimes.  Makes me raspberry jelly.  :(

Amen.  I know they are trying to be helpful, but comments that refer to the knowledge gained in playtesting rub me the wrong way.

I will probably not stop answering rules questions.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Nflickner on May 09, 2016, 11:46:16 pm
It seems like half this forum is playtesters sometimes.  Makes me raspberry jelly.  :(

Amen.  I know they are trying to be helpful, but comments that refer to the knowledge gained in playtesting rub me the wrong way.

I will probably not stop answering rules questions.

Thank you, and it was fun to play a couple matches against you earlier online :)
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: singletee on May 10, 2016, 01:00:24 am
Let's say I have 2 Hagglers in play and I buy Duchy, gaining Villa. I go back to my action phase. Do I still resolve the second Haggler effect?
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: ConMan on May 10, 2016, 01:07:39 am
Let's say I have 2 Hagglers in play and I buy Duchy, gaining Villa. I go back to my action phase. Do I still resolve the second Haggler effect?
I'd say yes, having resolved the "go back to your Action phase" effect of Villa, you then resolve the second on-buy effect. Otherwise, the trigger would still be sitting around, and I can only assume that the alternative would be to wait for your Buy phase to come around again to resolve it, which would be ridiculous.

On another note, I'd love to Inherit a Villa. And buying Inheritance, putting my Estate token on Villa would be pretty good too. Ironworksing an Inherited Villa is just getting silly (actually not that silly, since it essentially gives you a vanilla Village effect plus an extra card in hand).
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Donald X. on May 10, 2016, 01:47:54 am
Let's say I have 2 Hagglers in play and I buy Duchy, gaining Villa. I go back to my action phase. Do I still resolve the second Haggler effect?
Yes.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: AJD on May 10, 2016, 01:48:47 am
Let's say I have 2 Hagglers in play and I buy Duchy, gaining Villa. I go back to my action phase. Do I still resolve the second Haggler effect?
Yes.

So if what you want with the other Haggler effect is a Peddler, you should have taken it first.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Davio on May 10, 2016, 03:19:06 am
The thing I like most about Villa is that it adds something completely new and out-of-the-box.

I also like cards like Coppersmith, Counting House, etc. over Smithy, Market and the likes because they add something unique to the game.
It doesn't get more unique than the old phase switcheroo!

You can create some insane combos with this!

Play 4 Bridges and empty the pile!

Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on May 10, 2016, 03:20:41 am
At first glance, Villa looks horribly overpowered and highly annoying to resolve, but I assume DXV and co know what they're doing...
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Awaclus on May 10, 2016, 03:28:51 am
I don't mind playtesters being playtesters. Sure, I would also like to be a playtester, but as it turns out, I didn't participate in the tournament based on which Donald chose playtesters, so I can't really complain.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Davio on May 10, 2016, 06:31:49 am
I might have played with guys who are playtesters.
So that makes me a playtester-tester.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Elanchana on May 10, 2016, 10:02:25 am
I might have played with guys who are playtesters.
So that makes me a playtester-tester.

Yeah same here. I was one of the... secondary playtesters I guess? I was in the right place at the right time to learn about some of the cards and mechanics (thanks Elestan) but I wasn't singled out by DXV and I definitely haven't gotten to familiarize myself with all of them. This was one of the ones I did get to see.

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with everyone saying the only thing stopping Villa from being way OP is the lack of draw. If it were, for example, a level 3 City with that on-gain effect, then we'd have something to worry about. But as it is, there's not THAT much you can do with the on-gain without a way to get more cards - it's kinda like Coin in that aspect. The reason I thought it was so broken in my game is that I DID have a way to draw more cards because of the +1 card token, but that's kinda what the token is there for.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: shark_bait on May 10, 2016, 10:32:03 am


Play 4 Bridges and empty the pile!



You only need 3, it gives you +$1. 
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Donald X. on May 10, 2016, 12:03:17 pm
I don't mind playtesters being playtesters. Sure, I would also like to be a playtester, but as it turns out, I didn't participate in the tournament based on which Donald chose playtesters, so I can't really complain.
But were you willing to go to Chicago? I ask you.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Awaclus on May 10, 2016, 12:10:30 pm
I don't mind playtesters being playtesters. Sure, I would also like to be a playtester, but as it turns out, I didn't participate in the tournament based on which Donald chose playtesters, so I can't really complain.
But were you willing to go to Chicago? I ask you.

No. That's also a thing.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Seprix on May 10, 2016, 03:59:32 pm
I don't mind playtesters being playtesters. Sure, I would also like to be a playtester, but as it turns out, I didn't participate in the tournament based on which Donald chose playtesters, so I can't really complain.
But were you willing to go to Chicago? I ask you.

Who is ever willing to go to Chicago?
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Kirian on May 12, 2016, 12:52:56 am
So... can I play no treasure, use Alms to gain Villa, play it to gain a buy and $1, then play my treasures and buy a $4/$5/$6 cost card, depending on what else I have?  And I could do this on both of my starting turns, and have 2 Villas, a $5 and a $4 in my deck on T3?
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Donald X. on May 12, 2016, 12:54:43 am
So... can I play no treasure, use Alms to gain Villa, play it to gain a buy and $1, then play my treasures and buy a $4/$5/$6 cost card, depending on what else I have?  And I could do this on both of my starting turns, and have 2 Villas, a $5 and a $4 in my deck on T3?
Is this a rhetorical question? They told me to watch out for those.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: werothegreat on May 12, 2016, 01:04:08 am
So... can I play no treasure, use Alms to gain Villa, play it to gain a buy and $1, then play my treasures and buy a $4/$5/$6 cost card, depending on what else I have?  And I could do this on both of my starting turns, and have 2 Villas, a $5 and a $4 in my deck on T3?
Is this a rhetorical question? They told me to watch out for those.

Suffice to say, Alms/Villa is nuts.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Deadlock39 on May 12, 2016, 01:13:03 am
Just remember you might want some draw to go with all your Villa's before you gain the whole pile with Alms because it is a free $1.  Villa gives $1, and is non-terminal, which sounds a bit like... uh... Copper. If you don't have a use for all that +Action you might be hurting later.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: werothegreat on May 12, 2016, 01:15:32 am
Just remember you might want some draw to go with all your Villa's before you gain the whole pile with Alms because it is a free $1.  Villa gives $1, and is non-terminal, which sounds a bit like... uh... Copper. If you don't have a use for all that +Action you might be hurting later.

There are quite a few terminal draw cards at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png).  Margrave and Torturer spring immediately to mind.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Deadlock39 on May 12, 2016, 01:20:45 am
I mean, I'm just saying you should make sure you have a plan before you grab up the whole pile of Villa's, because they don't draw a card, and sometimes that can hurt.  Like maybe part of your plan is to put Plan on Villa. That might be fun.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: drsteelhammer on May 12, 2016, 02:11:18 am
Yeah the whole fun with Villa seems to drastically decrease when the pile is emptied. Unfortunately, that probably means that both people will empty that pile too early before the card can get completely insane.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on May 12, 2016, 03:40:31 am
Just remember you might want some draw to go with all your Villa's before you gain the whole pile with Alms because it is a free $1.  Villa gives $1, and is non-terminal, which sounds a bit like... uh... Copper. If you don't have a use for all that +Action you might be hurting later.

There are quite a few terminal draw cards at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png).  Margrave and Torturer spring immediately to mind.

And Rabble, Journeyman and Catacombs, maybe Haunted Woods if it counts. Ghost Ship, Witch, Cultist, Vault and Wharf give +2; Council Room gives +4 at a penalty; Library draws up to 7. (Library looks awesome with Villa.)
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Accatitippi on May 12, 2016, 10:24:45 am
Yeah the whole fun with Villa seems to drastically decrease when the pile is emptied. Unfortunately, that probably means that both people will empty that pile too early before the card can get completely insane.

My plan for a recent game was pretty much "Seaway and inherit Magpies, buy Hoard, Profit".
Those pesky piles, they run so fast.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: werothegreat on May 12, 2016, 10:32:53 am
Yeah the whole fun with Villa seems to drastically decrease when the pile is emptied. Unfortunately, that probably means that both people will empty that pile too early before the card can get completely insane.

My plan for a recent game was pretty much "Seaway and inherit Magpies, buy Hoard, Profit".
Those pesky piles, they run so fast.

Remember, only the real Magpies get +Buy.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Accatitippi on May 12, 2016, 06:15:00 pm
Yeah the whole fun with Villa seems to drastically decrease when the pile is emptied. Unfortunately, that probably means that both people will empty that pile too early before the card can get completely insane.

My plan for a recent game was pretty much "Seaway and inherit Magpies, buy Hoard, Profit".
Those pesky piles, they run so fast.

Remember, only the real Magpies get +Buy.

Thank you for the reminder, I was in fact only mildly aware of the fact, partially because I assumed I wouldn't need more +buys than what provided by real Magpies.
For the record, I never managed to Inherit them, the pile just disappeared.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Davio on May 13, 2016, 07:15:59 am
Yeah the whole fun with Villa seems to drastically decrease when the pile is emptied. Unfortunately, that probably means that both people will empty that pile too early before the card can get completely insane.
This is an important observation.

Villa is really easy to gain, but not the best village to have in your deck (although it certainly isn't bad), the missing +Card can be a pretty big deal. Festival is a pretty ok card, but there were so many times I had either all Festivals or all terminals.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on May 13, 2016, 07:21:15 am
Yeah the whole fun with Villa seems to drastically decrease when the pile is emptied. Unfortunately, that probably means that both people will empty that pile too early before the card can get completely insane.
The missing +Card can be a pretty big deal.
Go pathfinding!
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: crj on May 16, 2016, 08:41:56 am
So... I've just been thinking.

Using a combination of Villa, trash-from-play and gain-from-trash shenanigans, it's possible to send Villa infinite. (This (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15366.50) thread contains proof of concept.)

But it's also possible to incorporate VP gain into the cycle. Tomb is the no-effort way, but I bet Goons or Monument could manage it. This means Villa makes it possible to score infinite VP on a turn.

Two questions:
    1) Is it a good thing that Villa closes the Play->Trash->Deck->Play circle in Dominion?
    2) What's the ruling if somebody actually does this? Win? Stalemate?
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Watno on May 16, 2016, 09:28:14 am
2) What's the ruling if somebody actually does this? Win? Stalemate?
IIRC play on till one player starves.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: iguanaiguana on May 16, 2016, 09:29:46 am

    2) What's the ruling if somebody actually does this? Win? Stalemate?

DXV has a quote somewhere about how you'd better play in a 24 hour diner, because if you don't meet a win condition you're never going to stop playing.

In this case though, don't be too upset if everyone else leaves the table as well.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: crj on May 16, 2016, 09:43:02 am
This feels a little different from the "don't be an idiot and play Secret Chamber over and over again to the same Attack" principle, though. I mean, you are actually deriving benefit each time round the loop that makes it more likely you'll win. It feels harder to say "don't do that" to someone who's making a winning play.

Outpost and Mission have a built-in brake. I wonder if some kind of "if this is the first time you've gained Villa this turn" was considered and rejected.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Infthitbox on May 16, 2016, 09:44:39 am
    2) What's the ruling if somebody actually does this? Win? Stalemate?

So if I was running a meatspace tournament, and for some reason I allowed a kingdom that contained the pieces to create an infinite cycle, I'd treat it as they do in Magic. Demonstrate the deterministic loop, then name a number. Do it that many times and then stop. That means if your opponent can also do the loop, they can do it and choose a higher number. I expect it not to be a problem; presumably if you can get the supply and your deck to the state necessary to pull off the loop, you can just as easily score as many points as you need to take the lead and then actually end the game (I suppose you can pull the loop without a source of +buy but with VP, in that case, tough luck, eventually you need to pass the turn).

In a casual game, I expect everyone else to just quit if you assemble.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Elestan on May 16, 2016, 09:45:12 am
Is it a good thing that Villa closes the Play->Trash->Deck->Play circle in Dominion?

Currently, the circumstances that allow for unbounded gain are specific enough that they are only realistically going to happen by deliberate Kingdom design.  So for now, my suggestion is not to do that.  Don't put (Rogue or Graverobber) and (Procession or (Bonfire and Villa and Ambassador)) and (Crown or KC) and (a discounter) in the same Kingdom.  If you see a Kingdom with these cards, don't sit down at the table, and let the players know that they should have their wills in order before they start the game.

IMHO, while it would be preferable for the design to avoid allowing such shenanigans, the fun of playing Villa in the ~99.999999% of games that aren't vulnerable to this outweighs the downside that you can design something that will break if you try hard enough.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Deadlock39 on May 16, 2016, 10:02:47 am
From what I have seen of the solutions to this infinite puzzle, they also require having a good percentage of the supply in your deck and the trash, and drawing the correct starting hand. Perhaps there is a way to to design a Kingdom that can actually set it up quickly, but I am skeptical.  All of the solutions require returning Villa's with Ambassador with all your opponents unaffected, with the only way of forcing that situation being passing them a Champion and Possessing them.

Anyway, rambling on about how it sets up further is silly. The point I wanted to make is that my assessment of the scenario is that attempting to set it up will probably either end in failure, or losing the game before you finish.

I'd presume that King's Court/Goons/Masquerade, and it's variants are a bigger "problem" than this is, and they have been around for quite some time.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Chris is me on May 16, 2016, 10:40:31 am
Nothing remotely complex in the Puzzles forum ever happens in real games with real players. There's nothing to worry about.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: crj on May 16, 2016, 10:43:22 am
Hey, the Outpost variant of the King's Court, Goons, Masquerade combo very nearly happened to me once. The game ended one turn before the player intent on that managed to set it off.

Yes, the examples given so far look baroque and contrived. It's possible simpler exploits might turn up in time, though.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Donald X. on May 16, 2016, 02:43:06 pm
This feels a little different from the "don't be an idiot and play Secret Chamber over and over again to the same Attack" principle, though. I mean, you are actually deriving benefit each time round the loop that makes it more likely you'll win. It feels harder to say "don't do that" to someone who's making a winning play.

Outpost and Mission have a built-in brake. I wonder if some kind of "if this is the first time you've gained Villa this turn" was considered and rejected.
The starvation ruling came from a question about, what if the players have no money left in their decks and the Copper pile is empty (and no other empty piles except Curse, and this was before Ruins). It's possible with a single card - Thief, players choosing not to gain the treasures. I mean you aren't going to trump that for feasibility. The main set has two recommended sets of 10 with that one-card combo.

And yet the ruling was, the players starve to death. It does not look to me like Villa-lock-ups are more likely.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: GendoIkari on May 16, 2016, 04:45:27 pm
This feels a little different from the "don't be an idiot and play Secret Chamber over and over again to the same Attack" principle, though. I mean, you are actually deriving benefit each time round the loop that makes it more likely you'll win. It feels harder to say "don't do that" to someone who's making a winning play.

Outpost and Mission have a built-in brake. I wonder if some kind of "if this is the first time you've gained Villa this turn" was considered and rejected.
The starvation ruling came from a question about, what if the players have no money left in their decks and the Copper pile is empty (and no other empty piles except Curse, and this was before Ruins). It's possible with a single card - Thief, players choosing not to gain the treasures. I mean you aren't going to trump that for feasibility. The main set has two recommended sets of 10 with that one-card combo.

And yet the ruling was, the players starve to death. It does not look to me like Villa-lock-ups are more likely.

And I'm sure the same question has come up in the past in regards to possible situations where the best strategy was KC-KC-Monument-Monument-Monument while never buying anything because that would break your golden deck.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: wachsmuth on May 16, 2016, 09:04:31 pm
This feels a little different from the "don't be an idiot and play Secret Chamber over and over again to the same Attack" principle, though. I mean, you are actually deriving benefit each time round the loop that makes it more likely you'll win. It feels harder to say "don't do that" to someone who's making a winning play.

Outpost and Mission have a built-in brake. I wonder if some kind of "if this is the first time you've gained Villa this turn" was considered and rejected.
The starvation ruling came from a question about, what if the players have no money left in their decks and the Copper pile is empty (and no other empty piles except Curse, and this was before Ruins). It's possible with a single card - Thief, players choosing not to gain the treasures. I mean you aren't going to trump that for feasibility. The main set has two recommended sets of 10 with that one-card combo.

And yet the ruling was, the players starve to death. It does not look to me like Villa-lock-ups are more likely.

And I'm sure the same question has come up in the past in regards to possible situations where the best strategy was KC-KC-Monument-Monument-Monument while never buying anything because that would break your golden deck.

I had a game like that with J Reggie on his stream (Bishop-Fortress golden deck with lots of support), so it does happen. In practice, it ended with me resigning when I had gotten irrepairably far behind. If we simply make the assumption that Dominion players are reasonable people and will resign when they're in a losing position, I don't think this is a problem at all, really.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: pacovf on May 16, 2016, 09:49:01 pm
If we simply make the assumption that Dominion players are reasonable people

You must be new here.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: crj on May 16, 2016, 10:22:08 pm
I had a game like that with J Reggie on his stream (Bishop-Fortress golden deck with lots of support), so it does happen. In practice, it ended with me resigning when I had gotten irrepairably far behind.
If individual turns go infinite, however, things are a little stranger. Especially if they go infinite for more than one player before anybody manages to pile out the game.

Then, however long the first player perseveres before ending their turn, the second player can overtake them. So (in that sense, even if not in common sense) the first player has an incentive never to stop.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: AJD on May 17, 2016, 12:50:49 am
I had a game like that with J Reggie on his stream (Bishop-Fortress golden deck with lots of support), so it does happen. In practice, it ended with me resigning when I had gotten irrepairably far behind.
If individual turns go infinite, however, things are a little stranger. Especially if they go infinite for more than one player before anybody manages to pile out the game.

Then, however long the first player perseveres before ending their turn, the second player can overtake them. So (in that sense, even if not in common sense) the first player has an incentive never to stop.

...Unless I'm missing something, if you play Villa arbitrarily many times, you accumulate arbitrarily many coins and buys. In which case, if you can play Villa arbitrarily many times, you can just buy all the Provinces. No?
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: werothegreat on May 17, 2016, 01:01:32 am
I'm guessing the ruling is also "starve to death" if both players trash away all their (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) production and then put themselves in Debt.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Beyond Awesome on May 17, 2016, 02:05:28 am
I had a game like that with J Reggie on his stream (Bishop-Fortress golden deck with lots of support), so it does happen. In practice, it ended with me resigning when I had gotten irrepairably far behind.
If individual turns go infinite, however, things are a little stranger. Especially if they go infinite for more than one player before anybody manages to pile out the game.

Then, however long the first player perseveres before ending their turn, the second player can overtake them. So (in that sense, even if not in common sense) the first player has an incentive never to stop.

...Unless I'm missing something, if you play Villa arbitrarily many times, you accumulate arbitrarily many coins and buys. In which case, if you can play Villa arbitrarily many times, you can just buy all the Provinces. No?

Buying a villa uses a buy which you get when you pay the villa you bought.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Deadlock39 on May 17, 2016, 10:33:43 am
Yeah, the only issue here would be if you were able to generate a loop that generated an unbounded amount of VP tokens, but not buys and/or coins.  I think the MTG rules of "demonstrate the loop, and then state the number of times you want to execute it" would be appropriate here. Since the loops rely on things being in the trash to start it up, you can probably block your opponent from doing it also, so just generate Graham's Number of VP tokens, and figure out how to empty the supply on your next billion turns or so.

If it really is a situation where both players can guarantee pulling it off every turn, then well, call it a tie or something (or starve to death if you must).  You already had to figure this situation out if two players get to equal Bishop Fortress decks at the same time, and that combo is a heck of a lot more likely to show up.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: AJD on May 17, 2016, 05:54:28 pm
I had a game like that with J Reggie on his stream (Bishop-Fortress golden deck with lots of support), so it does happen. In practice, it ended with me resigning when I had gotten irrepairably far behind.
If individual turns go infinite, however, things are a little stranger. Especially if they go infinite for more than one player before anybody manages to pile out the game.

Then, however long the first player perseveres before ending their turn, the second player can overtake them. So (in that sense, even if not in common sense) the first player has an incentive never to stop.

...Unless I'm missing something, if you play Villa arbitrarily many times, you accumulate arbitrarily many coins and buys. In which case, if you can play Villa arbitrarily many times, you can just buy all the Provinces. No?

Buying a villa uses a buy which you get when you pay the villa you bought.

Oh, oops.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: singletee on May 19, 2016, 01:38:57 pm
If I Summon a Villa, what happens? I am guessing this:

I gain Villa, which goes directly to my hand upon being gained, similar to Nomad Camp's ability.
I get +1 Action and return to my Action phase.
Summon tries to set Villa aside, looking for it in my hand.
At this point, I am not sure what should happen. On the one hand, maybe it succeeds, because even though my hand is not public information, everyone knows there is a Villa in my hand, and I am allowed to see all cards in my hand, so I can find it.
On the other hand, maybe it fails, because my hand is not public information, and in theory there could be some other ability that might trigger and cause me to discard or something, so in the interest of simplicity we consider it to immediately be lost track of when it enters my hand.

Edit: Actually, this seems similar to the situation where I Mine, say, Copper to Silver, and then reveal Watchtower to trash that Silver. We can do that, yes? In that case the Summon should succeed.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: LastFootnote on May 19, 2016, 02:18:42 pm
If I Summon a Villa, what happens? I am guessing this:

I gain Villa, which goes directly to my hand upon being gained, similar to Nomad Camp's ability.
I get +1 Action and return to my Action phase.
Summon tries to set Villa aside, looking for it in my hand.
At this point, I am not sure what should happen. On the one hand, maybe it succeeds, because even though my hand is not public information, everyone knows there is a Villa in my hand, and I am allowed to see all cards in my hand, so I can find it.
On the other hand, maybe it fails, because my hand is not public information, and in theory there could be some other ability that might trigger and cause me to discard or something, so in the interest of simplicity we consider it to immediately be lost track of when it enters my hand.

Edit: Actually, this seems similar to the situation where I Mine, say, Copper to Silver, and then reveal Watchtower to trash that Silver. We can do that, yes? In that case the Summon should succeed.

I'm not 100% certain, but I don't think Villa goes directly to your hand when gained; I think it visits your discard pile. Therefore I believe Summon loses track of it. I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Deadlock39 on May 19, 2016, 02:35:33 pm
The wording on Villa matches Nomad Camp, so my guess would that it does not visit the discard, and Summon would not lose track.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: LastFootnote on May 19, 2016, 02:50:10 pm
The wording on Villa matches Nomad Camp, so my guess would that it does not visit the discard, and Summon would not lose track.

But that's because Nomad Camp's wording is wrong. It could be that Villa's wording is similarly wrong, but I think it's meant to visit your discard pile. Again, I'm not 100% certain.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: Donald X. on May 19, 2016, 03:11:59 pm
If I Summon a Villa, what happens? I am guessing this:

I gain Villa, which goes directly to my hand upon being gained, similar to Nomad Camp's ability.
I get +1 Action and return to my Action phase.
Summon tries to set Villa aside, looking for it in my hand.
At this point, I am not sure what should happen. On the one hand, maybe it succeeds, because even though my hand is not public information, everyone knows there is a Villa in my hand, and I am allowed to see all cards in my hand, so I can find it.
On the other hand, maybe it fails, because my hand is not public information, and in theory there could be some other ability that might trigger and cause me to discard or something, so in the interest of simplicity we consider it to immediately be lost track of when it enters my hand.

Edit: Actually, this seems similar to the situation where I Mine, say, Copper to Silver, and then reveal Watchtower to trash that Silver. We can do that, yes? In that case the Summon should succeed.
Nomad Camp specifically makes its wording an exception in the Hinterlands rulebook; Villa does not. So Villa goes to your discard pile and then moves to your hand, thus Summon loses track.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: King Leon on May 19, 2016, 05:33:10 pm
I have a stupid question.

What will happen, when I overpay a Stonemason by 4 and the first card I gain is a Villa?

My guess:
When I gain the Villa, it is put in my hand and the buy phase is immediately terminated. I cannot gain the second Action card from Stonemason, because of the Lose Track Rule.

Is that correct?

Thank you in advance.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: math on May 19, 2016, 05:36:23 pm
I have a stupid question.

What will happen, when I overpay a Stonemason by 4 and the first card I gain is a Villa?

My guess:
When I gain the Villa, it is put in my hand and the buy phase is immediately terminated. I cannot gain the second Action card from Stonemason, because of the Lose Track Rule.

Is that correct?

Thank you in advance.

Nothing moved except the Villa you gained, so Stonemason didn't lose track of the other card.  You will gain the other card, even though it's your Action phase.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: King Leon on May 19, 2016, 05:40:59 pm
I have a stupid question.

What will happen, when I overpay a Stonemason by 4 and the first card I gain is a Villa?

My guess:
When I gain the Villa, it is put in my hand and the buy phase is immediately terminated. I cannot gain the second Action card from Stonemason, because of the Lose Track Rule.

Is that correct?

Thank you in advance.

Nothing moved except the Villa you gained, so Stonemason didn't lose track of the other card.  You will gain the other card, even though it's your Action phase.

Thank you. So what will happen, if I overpay Stonemason by 6? Can I gain two Border Villages and two Villas then?
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: math on May 19, 2016, 05:46:46 pm
I have a stupid question.

What will happen, when I overpay a Stonemason by 4 and the first card I gain is a Villa?

My guess:
When I gain the Villa, it is put in my hand and the buy phase is immediately terminated. I cannot gain the second Action card from Stonemason, because of the Lose Track Rule.

Is that correct?

Thank you in advance.

Nothing moved except the Villa you gained, so Stonemason didn't lose track of the other card.  You will gain the other card, even though it's your Action phase.

Thank you. So what will happen, if I overpay Stonemason by 6? Can I gain two Border Villages and two Villas then?

Yes, you can.  The second Villa will be put into your hand along with the first one and give you another extra action, and it won't do anything else since you are already in your Action phase.
Title: Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
Post by: King Leon on May 19, 2016, 06:04:55 pm
I have a stupid question.

What will happen, when I overpay a Stonemason by 4 and the first card I gain is a Villa?

My guess:
When I gain the Villa, it is put in my hand and the buy phase is immediately terminated. I cannot gain the second Action card from Stonemason, because of the Lose Track Rule.

Is that correct?

Thank you in advance.

Nothing moved except the Villa you gained, so Stonemason didn't lose track of the other card.  You will gain the other card, even though it's your Action phase.

Thank you. So what will happen, if I overpay Stonemason by 6? Can I gain two Border Villages and two Villas then?

Yes, you can.  The second Villa will be put into your hand along with the first one and give you another extra action, and it won't do anything else since you are already in your Action phase.

Okay, this was quick. I thought, "return to Action phase" clears the stack of current on-buy and on-gain events, but it actually means "set the current phase to Action phase".
.