Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Qvist on January 05, 2012, 12:37:16 am

Title: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.1: \$3 cards
Post by: Qvist on January 05, 2012, 12:37:16 am
I just wanted to post the next article, but I couldn't because I exceeded the maximum allowed characters (20000). :P I think I have to split my post. But first I answer your posts.

As I said above, an unweighted ranking or using Median wouldn' have changed the order of the \$2 cards. So I didn't mentioned that. I will mention that if it would be a difference, you will see.
I think the request was just to display the median and mode, not re-order the list. We just want to see as many stats as possible if it's not too much trouble.

Quote
It might be nice to see a graph of for each card, x axis is the isotropic level of the raters, and y axis is the rank.

Maybe you'll see trends with the under/overrated cards.
Nice idea. Let's see what I can do. But: All lists are still weighted by isotropic rank, so I think those graphs won't tell you anything new.
A weighted average is a nice summary statistic to get an overall rank, but it would also be nice to see if there is any correlation between card rank and iso level. If it's too much trouble to post a graph, maybe at least compute a correlation coefficient? Again, I'm not trying to be too demanding, as you're already doing a lot of work, but the more stats we see the better. :)

As I said above, an unweighted ranking or using Median wouldn' have changed the order of the \$2 cards. So I didn't mentioned that. I will mention that if it would be a difference, you will see.
I think the request was just to display the median and mode, not re-order the list. We just want to see as many stats as possible if it's not too much trouble.
Yes, my point exactly. I think it would be nice if you (Qvist) put the median and mode everywhere (2 extra numbers for each card won't kill anyone) but only comment on them when they are interesting...or at least median, pleeeeeeease  ;D

You all (I am too) are such geeks ;)
In my next post I added median and mode. I think the mode is not very meaningful, but I added it like you want it to have. I will edit the \$2 article too.
Regarding the graph, I still have to make a few tests if I can get a result I'm satisfied with.

From the text: "If there's Mountebank in the supply and you're playing a 4-player-game, Moat might be a good buy." Might? In that situation, I think Moat is a MUST-buy, and I probably open moat/silver most of the time. "But if you're playing a 2-player game, buying Moat is mostly superfluous. Buying a trasher more against Cursers...is mostly the better alternative." You might be surprised if you simulate it in geronimoo's simulator. Just add a single remake or a single moat to the witch bot. Which do you think is better? Witch+Moat beast Witch+Remake 53-43.   Now I'm not saying just getting a trasher instead is not better some (or even a lot) of the time, but it's not like witch games transitioning into big money is a major outliar situation.
You're wrong if you think Geronimoo's simulator proves that Witch+Moat beats Witch+Remake. The basic Witch+Remake bot plays extremely poorly: it doesn't trash Witch when Curse pile is empty, it doesn't trash Curse+Silver when there is no good buy on the hand, etc. Just read the documentation for Remake.

Hm, interesting. I was very confused reading HiveMindEmulators statement. Anon79, that might be a good explanation, thanks for that.

What format is the dataset in?  Why not just open the dataset and let people do whatever analysis they want?

I will not release the data before my articles are finished. Later I'm not sure if will do it. At least I have to make the users anonymous as I don't know if all of you agree to publish your lists.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Qvist on January 05, 2012, 12:45:49 am
Now I added Median and Mode. Both values don't take the isotropic rank into account.

The Best \$3 Cards - Part 1/2
Link to the win rates on Councilroom (http://councilroom.com/win_weighted_accum_turn.html?cards=Cost%3D%3D3)
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom (http://councilroom.com/win_rate_diff_accum.html?cards=Cost%3D%3D3)

To the second part (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1464.msg22233#msg22233)
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Piemaster on January 05, 2012, 03:01:59 am
As a new player I am finding this project very interesting and educational, thank you!
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: theory on January 05, 2012, 04:53:09 am
How about this -- I just upped the max characters to 200K characters/post.  I don't want to make it truly unlimited for fear of abuse, but do you think 200K is enough?
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on January 05, 2012, 06:51:35 am
Really? The \$2 list was pretty good... but seriously guys? That list couldn't be much more wrong if it tried. You all suck.

Edit: Although saying that, I've got faith in the top 11. Only two of mine have gone already so it could still turn out alright, and one of them was Village which I had at 11, and it got 12, so that's no problem. Still waiting for my 20 to come out though...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Qvist on January 05, 2012, 09:03:23 am
As a new player I am finding this project very interesting and educational, thank you!
Thank you.

How about this -- I just upped the max characters to 200K characters/post.  I don't want to make it truly unlimited for fear of abuse, but do you think 200K is enough?
Yes of course. No problem. I just merged the posts. Thank you.

Really? The \$2 list was pretty good... but seriously guys? That list couldn't be much more wrong if it tried. You all suck.

Edit: Although saying that, I've got faith in the top 11. Only two of mine have gone already so it could still turn out alright, and one of them was Village which I had at 11, and it got 12, so that's no problem. Still waiting for my 20 to come out though...
Don't take it personally, but IMO there are only two possibilities, either the majority is wrong or you are.
I initiated to do that list exactly for everyone to rethink your opinion on all cards. What cards don't you agree with? Tell us your opinion so we can discuss it.
The only card I don't agree with is Black Market being so high with the reasons described in my post. And you?
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DrHades on January 05, 2012, 09:04:53 am
Time to say the biggest surprises for me:

#24 Woodcutter (my rank: #11): "That's him! That's the guy who put Woodcutter as #11!" Yep, that's me ;D The reason is simple - +buy is a gamechanger. There are BIG differences between games with and without +buy. Herbalist gives you just \$1, Trade Route in the beggining maybe not even that. Woodcutter is as good as Silver! "It fails Silver test." oh, give me a break! There is no such thing as a Silver test! If you need the +buy you are building a big engine. And if you are building a big engine, you almost always have some villages so you don't mind that this is a terminal. So all I'm saying is - +buy is not an ultimate feature, but it is very rare in Dominion and Woodcutters gives you 2 nice coins to help you use that buy.

#19 Shanty Town (my rank: #10): If you are buying lots of Shanty Towns and using them as Villages then yes, Shanty Town is bad. But it gives you many other wonderfull options! Are you building a deck without terminals? Take this lab for \$3! Is your opponent sending you a lots of crap so your engine is very clogged? Cycle faster! Yes, taking more then 3 Shanty Town is bad, but I think it is gennerally better than Village, because it is usefull even when you don't need +actions.

#18 Wishing Well (my rank: #9): It is handy, big time. You have \$7? Wish for Copper. You have \$8? Wish for Province/Duchy/Estate/Curse. You need +actions? You need second Goons? You need basicly anything? Use this badass! Yes, in many situations, Silver will be better, but if you are building an engine, you find yourself sad when you draw the Silver, so WW is much better later. I think it's true rank is just below Menagerie, cause they are very similar (although Menagerie is a bit better).

Okay, that were 3 cards that I got the highest of all people. And here comes a card, that I didn't have the lowest, but still surprised me:

#13 Loan (my rank: #22): Okay, so you want me, to buy a Copper instead of a Silver so I can trash my Coppers??? Are you nuts? This is the 2nd (after Develop) worst trasher in the game! Unless you have absolutely no other choice, it is a big NO and there are many boards, where Loan is the only trasher, and it is still SO SLOW, you don't want to waste time for buying it over Silver. Compare it to other "coppertrashers" - Moneylender gives you \$3, Spice Merchant gives you +2cards/+1action. This poor guy gives you a Copper. No, thanks! (I know that Moneylender and SM trashes the Copper from your hand, so they give you a virtual "-\$1", but at least you KNOW that you gonna trash the Copper, Loan can show you a Gold)

I am happy, that the 8 cards I got as "very good" are in the top12 :) And I am very excited about the order of them  ;D

PS: Thanks for the median and mode ;)
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DrHades on January 05, 2012, 09:06:41 am
Really? The \$2 list was pretty good... but seriously guys? That list couldn't be much more wrong if it tried. You all suck.

Edit: Although saying that, I've got faith in the top 11. Only two of mine have gone already so it could still turn out alright, and one of them was Village which I had at 11, and it got 12, so that's no problem. Still waiting for my 20 to come out though...
Don't take it personally, but IMO there are only two possibilities, either the majority is wrong or you are.
I initiated to do that list exactly for everyone to rethink your opinion on all cards. What cards don't you agree with? Tell us your opinion so we can discuss it.
The only card I don't agree with is Black Market being so high with the reasons described in my post. And you?

I kinda agree with TINAS about sucking, but totally agree with Qvist - tell me more, tell me more, like where you had a Loan?  ;D
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: kn1tt3r on January 05, 2012, 09:07:29 am
I'd probably exchange positions of Black Market and Oracle, but apart from that the list seems reasonable.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on January 05, 2012, 09:24:12 am
Well, as you say, Black Market is way way way way way too high. I'd argue that Smugglers is too. Most of the time, if your Smugglers had been a Silver you'd have been able to buy the card you smuggled anyway, and the extra buy you get to make instead (for \$2 less) doesn't get anywhere near to making up for the times that Smugglers is a dead card in your hand. Great hall is also too high on the list, it just doesn't do... anything. It's a cantrip Estate and with terminal card drawers around, it can get in the way just as much.

And then there's Oracle at 21... wow. Yeah, the attack isn't the best in the world, but man it feels good when you can discard your opponent's Witch and Gold. But that's not even the best part of the card. +2 cards isn't great, no, but you've got a fair bit of control over what those 2 cards will be. And if you discard the first two, you've just got yourself 4 cards worth of cycling. For \$3. With an attack included. Early game I often discard 2 Coppers and draw Copper, Estate instead simply because that gets me to the Gold that I just bought even quicker. I mean, I didn't have Oracle in my top 10 or anything... but there is no way it's the 6th worst \$3 card.

Ninjaedit: I had Loan at 13, exactly where it is on this list :)
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: kn1tt3r on January 05, 2012, 09:35:03 am
And then there's Oracle at 21... wow. Yeah, the attack isn't the best in the world, but man it feels good when you can discard your opponent's Witch and Gold. But that's not even the best part of the card. +2 cards isn't great, no, but you've got a fair bit of control over what those 2 cards will be. And if you discard the first two, you've just got yourself 4 cards worth of cycling. For \$3. With an attack included. Early game I often discard 2 Coppers and draw Copper, Estate instead simply because that gets me to the Gold that I just bought even quicker. I mean, I didn't have Oracle in my top 10 or anything... but there is no way it's the 6th worst \$3 card.

I agree completely.

I mean, compare it to Smithy. It draws one card more, but Oracle can draw selectively to some extend (so it somewhat favors quality over quantity). This is of course weaker, but it costs less and has a decent attack as added bonus.

It's not a game dominating card (though Oracle/Money is not bad at all), but way better than #21.

However, I've not voted here, so I'm not in a position to complain. Fortune Teller and Woodcutter would have been also quite low on my list, simply because something has to be there and most other cards are just a bit better.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on January 05, 2012, 09:39:22 am
And then, of course, there's the card that I ranked at number 20 that hasn't come out yet. I can understand why some people would vote it highly, but I just haven't got as much good use out of it as you'd first think looking at the card. I'll happily admit that it looks amazing, but in practise it's mostly a wasted buy except in a few specific cases.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DStu on January 05, 2012, 09:41:34 am
I mostly like Black Market for the same reason as Woodcutter. Getting a +buy out of it if the board doesn't have one. Smugglers I agree to TINAS. Both attacks I don't have a good feeling for, I usually don't play them because I want some other terminals.

And Loan: Yes, it's "non-terminal", it's +\$1, it trashes from outside the hand, but nevertheless I usually have a hard time to come at \$5 when I trash with Loan. You don't have that with Moneylender, despite being terminal and trashing from the hand. But just taking out the Coppers and leaving the Estates always ends up with destroyed decks for me, which the Moneylender somehow does not. Don't know why.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DStu on January 05, 2012, 09:43:14 am
And then, of course, there's the card that I ranked at number 20 that hasn't come out yet. I can understand why some people would vote it highly, but I just haven't got as much good use out of it as you'd first think looking at the card. I'll happily admit that it looks amazing, but in practise it's mostly a wasted buy except in a few specific cases.

Scheme?
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on January 05, 2012, 09:45:06 am
And then, of course, there's the card that I ranked at number 20 that hasn't come out yet. I can understand why some people would vote it highly, but I just haven't got as much good use out of it as you'd first think looking at the card. I'll happily admit that it looks amazing, but in practise it's mostly a wasted buy except in a few specific cases.

Scheme?

We have a winner!
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DrHades on January 05, 2012, 09:46:28 am
And then, of course, there's the card that I ranked at number 20 that hasn't come out yet. I can understand why some people would vote it highly, but I just haven't got as much good use out of it as you'd first think looking at the card. I'll happily admit that it looks amazing, but in practise it's mostly a wasted buy except in a few specific cases.
Tunnel?
Ninjaedit: Scheme??? Whov...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DStu on January 05, 2012, 09:49:07 am
And then, of course, there's the card that I ranked at number 20 that hasn't come out yet. I can understand why some people would vote it highly, but I just haven't got as much good use out of it as you'd first think looking at the card. I'll happily admit that it looks amazing, but in practise it's mostly a wasted buy except in a few specific cases.
Tunnel?

Tunnel is worth its \$3 for the 2VP even if you ignore the reaction effect.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: brokoli on January 05, 2012, 09:55:05 am
Fortune teller  :'(

Fortune teller "the worst attack" ? I can't agree. Sometimes Fortune teller is better than a single rabble. Maybe I'm crazy but I think Fortune teller is even better than Swindler or Oracle. Well, fortune teller is weak when there are Tournament or baron... but how many times it happens ?

You can put a curse on top of your opponent's deck, like Sea hag.
You can put a province on top of his deck, and after, use your saboteur.
But Fortune teller's attack is very good, generally.

Fortune teller, the most underrated card in the game ^^. In this category, I would put also Develop and Woodcutter.
And Black market is too high, I think.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Deadlock39 on January 05, 2012, 09:58:00 am
I don't have much to add (and did not submit a list), but wanted to say that I agree with pretty much all of TINAS's comments.

One thing I do want to say about Fortune Teller is that the skipping past good cards effect is really not something that should be considered a benefit of FT.  Sure, there is a luck aspect to it where you could skip your opponent's Witch every shuffle, but you are just as likely to get him closer to it as you are to skip it.  The skipping cards effect is going to be a wash on average, and the cycling effect is going to actually be slightly beneficial to your opponent until the end of the game when they start buying VP.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Forge!!! on January 05, 2012, 10:07:07 am
I can't help but feel like the blurb about develop has the idea of the card all wrong. You say that a trasher has to be a good beginning game card, but that's just because all previous ones have been. With the top-decking of the two cards you get it feels very much like a mid/late game card. You can trash your \$4 into a Duchy if you really feel like you need to, or you can trash it into a Village/Torturer, or a Fishing Village/Wharf, or your \$5 into a GM or Goons/Throne Room, or a \$6 into KC/Mountebank or Torturer or whatever. I'm not saying that necessarily makes it that good of a card at all, just that that seems to be more of the purpose of it, rather than an early game trasher or a late game victory card getter.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: theory on January 05, 2012, 10:07:29 am
And then there's Oracle at 21... wow. Yeah, the attack isn't the best in the world, but man it feels good when you can discard your opponent's Witch and Gold. But that's not even the best part of the card. +2 cards isn't great, no, but you've got a fair bit of control over what those 2 cards will be. And if you discard the first two, you've just got yourself 4 cards worth of cycling. For \$3. With an attack included. Early game I often discard 2 Coppers and draw Copper, Estate instead simply because that gets me to the Gold that I just bought even quicker. I mean, I didn't have Oracle in my top 10 or anything... but there is no way it's the 6th worst \$3 card.

I agree completely.

I mean, compare it to Smithy. It draws one card more, but Oracle can draw selectively to some extend (so it somewhat favors quality over quantity). This is of course weaker, but it costs less and has a decent attack as added bonus.

It's not a game dominating card (though Oracle/Money is not bad at all), but way better than #21.

However, I've not voted here, so I'm not in a position to complain. Fortune Teller and Woodcutter would have been also quite low on my list, simply because something has to be there and most other cards are just a bit better.
"1 card more" is also the difference between Smithy and Moat.

Really, Smithy reads, draw my replacement card, then 2 more, and Moat/Oracle reads, draw my replacement card, and 1 more.  It's a huge difference.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DStu on January 05, 2012, 10:10:06 am
Quote
"1 card more" is also the difference between Smithy and Moat.

Really, Smithy reads, draw my replacement card, then 2 more, and Moat/Oracle reads, draw my replacement card, and 1 more.  It's a huge difference.

Maybe one should compare it more to Courtyard?
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on January 05, 2012, 10:11:48 am
And then there's Oracle at 21... wow. Yeah, the attack isn't the best in the world, but man it feels good when you can discard your opponent's Witch and Gold. But that's not even the best part of the card. +2 cards isn't great, no, but you've got a fair bit of control over what those 2 cards will be. And if you discard the first two, you've just got yourself 4 cards worth of cycling. For \$3. With an attack included. Early game I often discard 2 Coppers and draw Copper, Estate instead simply because that gets me to the Gold that I just bought even quicker. I mean, I didn't have Oracle in my top 10 or anything... but there is no way it's the 6th worst \$3 card.

I agree completely.

I mean, compare it to Smithy. It draws one card more, but Oracle can draw selectively to some extend (so it somewhat favors quality over quantity). This is of course weaker, but it costs less and has a decent attack as added bonus.

It's not a game dominating card (though Oracle/Money is not bad at all), but way better than #21.

However, I've not voted here, so I'm not in a position to complain. Fortune Teller and Woodcutter would have been also quite low on my list, simply because something has to be there and most other cards are just a bit better.
"1 card more" is also the difference between Smithy and Moat.

Really, Smithy reads, draw my replacement card, then 2 more, and Moat/Oracle reads, draw my replacement card, and 1 more.  It's a huge difference.

Apart from Oracle actually reads "You can draw my replacement card and one more, but you can have a look at them first and decide if you want those ones or some different ones instead, in which case I'll cycle your deck by pretty much a whole turn. Oh, and you can attack your opponents while you're at it."
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: WanderingWinder on January 05, 2012, 10:14:50 am
And then there's Oracle at 21... wow. Yeah, the attack isn't the best in the world, but man it feels good when you can discard your opponent's Witch and Gold. But that's not even the best part of the card. +2 cards isn't great, no, but you've got a fair bit of control over what those 2 cards will be. And if you discard the first two, you've just got yourself 4 cards worth of cycling. For \$3. With an attack included. Early game I often discard 2 Coppers and draw Copper, Estate instead simply because that gets me to the Gold that I just bought even quicker. I mean, I didn't have Oracle in my top 10 or anything... but there is no way it's the 6th worst \$3 card.

I agree completely.

I mean, compare it to Smithy. It draws one card more, but Oracle can draw selectively to some extend (so it somewhat favors quality over quantity). This is of course weaker, but it costs less and has a decent attack as added bonus.

It's not a game dominating card (though Oracle/Money is not bad at all), but way better than #21.

However, I've not voted here, so I'm not in a position to complain. Fortune Teller and Woodcutter would have been also quite low on my list, simply because something has to be there and most other cards are just a bit better.
"1 card more" is also the difference between Smithy and Moat.

Really, Smithy reads, draw my replacement card, then 2 more, and Moat/Oracle reads, draw my replacement card, and 1 more.  It's a huge difference.
Ah, but even the simulators (!) show that BM/Oracle is superior to BM/Smithy. And they necessarily play Oracle sub-optimally. Oracle is actually a power card.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: jsh357 on January 05, 2012, 10:37:03 am
Yeah, Oracle has quickly become one of my favorites.  Its power just isn't evident at first because it seems dull at first glance.  I was bummed to see it so low on the list, but not too surprised.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: mnavratil on January 05, 2012, 10:57:52 am
Sometimes Fortune teller is better than a single rabble.

But then again sometimes it's not.
Rabble, for instance, won't let your opponent top-deck a dual-type victory card (Nobles, Harem...) where fortune teller will. This can make fortune teller helpful to the oppoonent in more cases than just baron or tournament.

I do tend to wonder why fortune teller doesn't share the same wording with Rabble.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: michaeljb on January 05, 2012, 11:34:13 am
I never got around to making my own lists for this project (wish I had, but oh well), but I wanted to chime in on a few cards here:

-I thought Oracle was incredibly weak when I first read it, but now that I've actually played with it a couple times, I've found it's much better than my first impression, and I'm fairly certain it would be higher on my list.

-Workshop better than Fortune Teller?? ok yeah...both situational, but I've definitely found Fortune Teller better in a much wider variety of situations than Workshop.

-Smugglers, Black Market, both are too high. Black Market is more like the Black Casino, and Smugglers is more like wish-I-would-have-had-a-Silver. Not sure how I'd rank these two against each other. To be fair, there are certain boards where Smugglers can be a powerhouse card, almost like a Workshop gaining up to \$6. But most of the time, it's no good.

-One of Loan's nice features is not having to spend an Action to use, and it is also an excellent counter to those top-deck attacks. I don't think it's fair to call Loan weak without acknowledging those two features which are definitely strengths. Sure, sometimes it hits your only Silver (and of course later on it's more likely to hit better treasure--because you've been dumping Coppers remember? Plus you don't keep playing Lookout late into the game), but it is definitely a legitimate early game trasher, something Trade Route can't really say (unless of course the openings involve Great Hall or Island or whatever).

-Oh and about Scheme: best (or at least my favorite) uses of Schemes are too repeatedly play Attack cards and Hunting Parties.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Tables on January 05, 2012, 02:00:02 pm
Hm... looks like I've overrated Chancellor, Workshop and Oasis, while underrating Black Market and Village.

Chancellor... I don't think is a great card. But I think it's advantages (faster shuffling) outweigh the cards beneath it. I probably overrated it a little, but I'd say it outweighs the very situational Tactican/BM deck, Woodcutter, Oracle... quite a few of the +\$2 terminals, actually.

Workshop is generally bad, but it has those occasions that it's so good: Gardens and Silk Road, and other cases when there are great \$3 or \$4's out. Again, I think I overrated it, but I think people underestimate what it can really do (especially the Ironworks argument... yes, it's worse in games with Ironworks, but what if there isn't and you want some \$4's?)

Oasis I just don't have enough experience with, but in games with no trashing it feels pretty good, and discarding a card can be taken advantage of, with Menagerie, Library and other similar cards. I think my opinion might fall as I use it more.

Black Market was mentioned already, but really asides from Tactician, all you can really do with BM is hope to hit a really good card early. Unless the BM deck is really good, that doesn't happen most of the time. You might win big with this card, but more often, you'll lose slightly. And Dominion isn't a game that cares about the magnitude of your wins.

Village... everyone knows about village :P. Actually, I didn't underrate this by THAT much, but as a source of extra actions I find it pretty mediocre in general.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: chwhite on January 05, 2012, 02:10:16 pm
Fortune Teller is the worst attack in the game

I agree with like 95 percent of what you're saying here, but... Fortune Teller is far from the worst attack in the game.  Thief, Noble Brigand, Pirate Ship, Saboteur and possibly Bureaucrat too all say hello.

Anyway, yeah this list is way wronger than the \$2s.  In particular: Smugglers is massively overrated, even at #20: I was one of the #25 votes, and I think there's a pretty huge gap between Smugglers and the next best card (which probably deserves to be Workshop, though I think I voted for something else there).  Fortune Teller is severely underrated; I think I had it at #16, so not the largest outlier but much higher than average.  Oracle is similarly underrated.  Black Market and Trade Route, on the other hand, are too high.  I had BM at #20, and was worried that I was overrating it given how bad it is at actually winning games; and Trade Route I had all the way down at #21 though on reflection it ought to be a few spots higher than that.  Trade Route has many of the same problems of Develop, though it is better at getting you Victory cards and the +buy helps a lot.  Come to think of it #17 was probably around right.

I don't have Scheme as low as TINAS, but I also sure don't think it deserves to be in the top 11.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: chwhite on January 05, 2012, 02:14:01 pm
Hm... looks like I've overrated Chancellor, Workshop and Oasis, while underrating Black Market and Village.

Actually I'd say you're more right than not.  Chancellor is not nearly as bad as its reputation; I had it at #22 (still pretty low, but better than Develop, Smugglers, Workshop, and Woodcutter).  Oasis is a strong utility card: very often as good as Peddler, and sometimes better (Menagerie for instance).  And everyone overrates Black Market.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: rrenaud on January 05, 2012, 02:32:00 pm
One good point for develop, unlike many threes, and all of the other poorly rated 3s, is that it can be really damn good.  And the other is that it's a trasher, and you mostly expect trashers to be good early and poor late, but develop is much better late than it is early.

Put a \$7 on the board and it's sweet.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120104-204526-9c34f008.html#rrenaud-show-turn-15
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on January 05, 2012, 02:41:15 pm
Fortune Teller is the worst attack in the game

I agree with like 95 percent of what you're saying here, but... Fortune Teller is far from the worst attack in the game.  Thief, Noble Brigand, Pirate Ship, Saboteur and possibly Bureaucrat too all say hello.

You're right, of course. When I wrote that I had "As there is no Attack card for \$2, look at the worst attack in the game." in my head from the list text. I didn't stop to think that there could be a worse attack at a higher cost, and there are in fact many. Not Bureucrat though. Bureaucrat is a great card. My only other major problem with the list text that I'd suggest changing is the part about Shanty Town where it says you can play one followed by two terminals and then another ST. That's just plain wrong.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on January 05, 2012, 03:03:30 pm
I am a great defender of Shanty Town as an elite opener paired with something other than  a terminal.  It is only great in decks that run a non-terminal engine or Torturer or Rabble without another Village on the board.  One Shanty Town in a deck with no terminals is essentially a Laboratory and should be respected as an early game card.

Very nice work, Qvist.  Kudos.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DrHades on January 05, 2012, 03:26:25 pm
Fortune Teller is the worst attack in the game

I agree with like 95 percent of what you're saying here, but... Fortune Teller is far from the worst attack in the game.  Thief, Noble Brigand, Pirate Ship, Saboteur and possibly Bureaucrat too all say hello.

I think you are wrong. Bereaucrat is just better. Thief, Noble Brigand and Pirate Ship are all very good in 3+ players, so you cannot purely say that they are worse (although I made my lists mainly for 2p game). And Saboteur? Can you imagine Saboteur costing \$3?
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Fabian on January 05, 2012, 03:39:10 pm
What does it matter how good Saboteur would or wouldn't be if it was a full \$2 cheaper? Fortune Teller is clearly a much much better card than Saboteur. It's a lot better than Thief and Noble Brigand too, and certainly better than Pirate Ship in 2p games at least.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DrHades on January 05, 2012, 04:03:23 pm
What does it matter how good Saboteur would or wouldn't be if it was a full \$2 cheaper? Fortune Teller is clearly a much much better card than Saboteur. It's a lot better than Thief and Noble Brigand too, and certainly better than Pirate Ship in 2p games at least.

You can gain Saboteur or Fortune Teller - which one would you take? Qvist did not mean "relative to the cost", he meant it absolute (at least I hope he did, if he did not, he was terribly wrong of course)...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Voltgloss on January 05, 2012, 04:07:44 pm
Comparing Fortune Teller to Bureaucrat seems interesting, as both are terminal actions that sorta do the same things (giving you \$2 and topdecking the opponent's green), but obviously go about them in quite different ways.  Fortune Teller gives you +\$2 right away; Bureaucrat gives you a Silver in your next draw.  And Fortune Teller digs through the opponent's deck for a green, while Bureaucrat hits them again with a green they already have in hand.

That said, Bureaucrat "must" be better than Fortune Teller because it costs \$4 instead of \$3.  Discussion so far in this thread seems to agree with that conclusion.  Yet Bureaucrat does have some inarguable drawbacks - it doesn't increase your buying power in the turn you actually play it (unless you sneak it into the middle of a +Actions/+Cards run), and if your opponent isn't holding green its attack has no effect.  So what is it about how Bureacrat does things that makes it better than Fortune Teller?  Is it that important to have a card breeding Silvers without you having to buy them (and if so, why are things like Workshop and Explorer looked down upon)?  Is it that much more effective to hit your opponent twice with a green they already have in hand, despite the risk your attack may whiff if their green is all in their deck?

Note that I, too, consider Bureaucrat to be more useful than Fortune Teller, though I'm having a difficult time exactly articulating why, and would be curious to hear other folks' thoughts.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on January 05, 2012, 04:09:11 pm
#13 Loan (my rank: #22): Okay, so you want me, to buy a Copper instead of a Silver so I can trash my Coppers??? Are you nuts? This is the 2nd (after Develop) worst trasher in the game! Unless you have absolutely no other choice, it is a big NO and there are many boards, where Loan is the only trasher, and it is still SO SLOW, you don't want to waste time for buying it over Silver. Compare it to other "coppertrashers" - Moneylender gives you \$3, Spice Merchant gives you +2cards/+1action. This poor guy gives you a Copper. No, thanks! (I know that Moneylender and SM trashes the Copper from your hand, so they give you a virtual "-\$1", but at least you KNOW that you gonna trash the Copper, Loan can show you a Gold)
There are a couple subtle things about loan that make it better than Moneylender and Spice Merchant, imo.
1. It doesn't take an action
2. It costs only \$3, so you can open it with a good (terminal) \$4 card
3. It only gives \$1 less than moneylender, but cycles at least 1 card
4. It gives about the same money as spice merchant (assuming cards give \$1 on average).
5. You don't have to trash to get the \$1
Quote
"1 card more" is also the difference between Smithy and Moat.

Really, Smithy reads, draw my replacement card, then 2 more, and Moat/Oracle reads, draw my replacement card, and 1 more.  It's a huge difference.

Maybe one should compare it more to Courtyard?
It compared to courtyard like cellar does to warehouse. Theory would hate it :)

Ah, but even the simulators (!) show that BM/Oracle is superior to BM/Smithy. And they necessarily play Oracle sub-optimally. Oracle is actually a power card.
Superior in what way? I have tried and found that it does not beat it heads-up.

Other stuff:
I agree with most people that the attacks are too low and black market is too high. It's hard to complain, because while I put a lot of thought into the top of my list, I didn't spend much time on the rest, as it's really hard to compare the really situational \$3 cards. The one that I ranked much lower than it turned out was oasis. I guess I underrated it, but I felt like it's mostly a do-nothing card (if you discard a copper, it's essentially a cantrip) that in some situations (menagerie, minion, library-types) is pretty good. I have a hard time seeing how it can rank better than wishing well, for instance.

EDIT:
I'm not surprised fortune teller is low, since it's not a good early game attack. Like rabble, it's a good late game attack, and it's easy to forget about \$3 cards late game.

The thing with oracle is when you first read it, nothing jumps out at you, but if you think about it at all, it's pretty good. Skipping a good card in the early game hurts sooo much. Yes +2 Cards isn't sexy, but no one complains about witch being weak. You can't say an attack card is bad by ignoring the attack part.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DStu on January 05, 2012, 04:09:17 pm
But absolute includes the cost. If there was a card "Your opponent trashes a Province" for \$24, that would be the worst attack in the game. Exactly because it costs \$24.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DStu on January 05, 2012, 04:12:34 pm
Note that I, too, consider Bureaucrat to be more useful than Fortune Teller, though I'm having a difficult time exactly articulating why, and would be curious to hear other folks' thoughts.

I think it's because the decks you want the Bureaucrat for are these where you want to have the Silver, the attack is just a bonus.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: ycz6 on January 05, 2012, 04:31:42 pm
Didn't vote, but I'm finding the discussion interesting.

I feel like pointing out that of course the \$3 list is going to have more deviation per person. There are more cards!
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: WanderingWinder on January 05, 2012, 04:33:29 pm
Superior in what way? I have tried and found that it does not beat it heads-up.

What bots are you using?
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: theory on January 05, 2012, 04:37:17 pm
Comparing Fortune Teller to Bureaucrat seems interesting, as both are terminal actions that sorta do the same things (giving you \$2 and topdecking the opponent's green), but obviously go about them in quite different ways.  Fortune Teller gives you +\$2 right away; Bureaucrat gives you a Silver in your next draw.  And Fortune Teller digs through the opponent's deck for a green, while Bureaucrat hits them again with a green they already have in hand.

That said, Bureaucrat "must" be better than Fortune Teller because it costs \$4 instead of \$3.  Discussion so far in this thread seems to agree with that conclusion.  Yet Bureaucrat does have some inarguable drawbacks - it doesn't increase your buying power in the turn you actually play it (unless you sneak it into the middle of a +Actions/+Cards run), and if your opponent isn't holding green its attack has no effect.  So what is it about how Bureacrat does things that makes it better than Fortune Teller?  Is it that important to have a card breeding Silvers without you having to buy them (and if so, why are things like Workshop and Explorer looked down upon)?  Is it that much more effective to hit your opponent twice with a green they already have in hand, despite the risk your attack may whiff if their green is all in their deck?

Note that I, too, consider Bureaucrat to be more useful than Fortune Teller, though I'm having a difficult time exactly articulating why, and would be curious to hear other folks' thoughts.
1) Because the attack does hurt more if you're putting stuff from your hand onto your deck, by slowing your cycling.

2) Because the Silvers accumulate over time in a way that FT does not.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DrHades on January 05, 2012, 04:43:01 pm
But absolute includes the cost. If there was a card "Your opponent trashes a Province" for \$24, that would be the worst attack in the game. Exactly because it costs \$24.

When you hava \$5 and one buy in game, then all the cards that have \$5 or less are exactly \$5 now. You won't buy Menagerie over Lab just because it is cheeper - the cost just don't matter right now. This is the reason why comparing cards without the cost makes perfect sence, are we on the same page now? :)

Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Fabian on January 05, 2012, 04:57:11 pm
DrHades, so Possession is better than Fishing Village. King's Court is better than Masquerade. Expand is better than Throne Room. See how useless and silly it is to think in those terms? It's definitely not how everyone else thinks about card strength, in any case.

(bonus: Warehouse is better than Cellar!)
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on January 05, 2012, 05:04:08 pm
Superior in what way? I have tried and found that it does not beat it heads-up.

What bots are you using?
Well back when I did it, I put less time and effort into the oracle bot than you did. But just now, using the ones in geronimoo's simulator (your oracle and my smithy), smithy wins 49-42.

When you hava \$5 and one buy in game, then all the cards that have \$5 or less are exactly \$5 now. You won't buy Menagerie over Lab just because it is cheeper - the cost just don't matter right now. This is the reason why comparing cards without the cost makes perfect sence, are we on the same page now? :)
And when you have \$4 and one buy in game, then all cards costing \$4 or less cost \$4, and all cards costing \$5 or more cost \$infinity...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DrHades on January 05, 2012, 05:15:15 pm
Yes, when I say that one card is stronger than the other, I almost always mean relatively to the cost. BUT there are good reasons to consider which card is better in absolute. I would not say that a card is "the worst absolute attack" because I think it is not interesting at all, but I think Qvist meant it this way.

Are we clear now? Finally?  ;D
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Fabian on January 05, 2012, 05:22:44 pm
As long as you understand Qvist didn't mean it the way you mean it, and no one else means it in that way either, then I think we're clear!
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Deadlock39 on January 05, 2012, 05:53:17 pm
A \$3 Saboteur would certainly be degenerate, but it would still be a crappy attack.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DrHades on January 05, 2012, 06:03:00 pm
As long as you understand Qvist didn't mean it the way you mean it, and no one else means it in that way either, then I think we're clear!

I did never mean it that way. I am just saying how I think Qvist meant it.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: chwhite on January 05, 2012, 09:06:41 pm
Fortune Teller is the worst attack in the game

I agree with like 95 percent of what you're saying here, but... Fortune Teller is far from the worst attack in the game.  Thief, Noble Brigand, Pirate Ship, Saboteur and possibly Bureaucrat too all say hello.

I think you are wrong. Bereaucrat is just better. Thief, Noble Brigand and Pirate Ship are all very good in 3+ players, so you cannot purely say that they are worse (although I made my lists mainly for 2p game). And Saboteur? Can you imagine Saboteur costing \$3?

Thief remains awful in at least 98 percent of setups no matter how many players you add. I can't say the same for sure with Noble Brigand since I'm not sure I've ever actually played it in multiplayer, but it's similar enough to Thief that I can't imagine it improving enough.  Pirate Ship does markedly improve with 3 or 4, but it goes from "absolutely horrid" to "situational"; it's still ignorable over half the time in 4p.

...

The comparison between Bureaucrat and Fortune Teller is actually a really interesting one.  Both of them give you \$2 and make your opponent top-deck a Victory card, but they play much differently.  Fortune Teller's attack is essentially a miniature version of Rabble, cycling your opponent's deck and (hopefully) forcing them to miss some of their good cards this reshuffle.  Unlike Rabble, it doesn't stack, but on the other hand it is guaranteed to hit (granted the "hit" can be very soft if hybrid Victory cards, or Tournament, are around).  Bureaucrat is a different beast entirely, as it's instead a miniature Ghost Ship.  Your opponent doesn't miss their cards, but their deck is slowed instead.  Ghost Ship is way nastier than Rabble, so that's a point in the B-crat's favor, but on the other hand it's quite likely to whiff, as a hand with no Victory cards will escape unscathed.

And then the benefit to you works very differently as well.  Fortune Teller is just a terminal Silver, like so many other cards, but the Bureaucrat is a Silver gainer, giving you no benefit this turn (which is a definite minus) and flooding your deck with Treasure, which is sometimes good but also sometimes bad.  On top of deck is better than in the discard, to be sure, but it's also not that great: if it replaces a Copper than you've only improved your next hand by \$1 and will still have to deal with that Copper too; the B-crat actually slows progress through your deck as well!

Now, which is better?  It's often hard to make comparisons between cards of different cost, but \$3 and \$4 are in practical terms more alike than any other two cost tiers, so I feel comfortable putting them side-by-side.  And my verdict is that Fortune Teller is more often a good buy (at least twice as often is my intuition), but the B-crat is likely to be more important to your strategy when you do buy it.  Both attacks are weakest in the midgame, with the B-crat a little more painful (when it hits and it often won't, remember) early on and Fortune Teller better late.  The real difference is what sort of decks you want these cards in: barring some corner cases with Chapel etc., Bureaucrat's Silver flood is deadly to powerful chaining and combos (and Colonies), so if you're going Action-heavy then the Bureaucrat will actively torpedo you, whereas Fortune Teller thrives in an Action-rich environment (and can pull some cute tricks with Jester and Saboteur besides).  But Bureaucrat is of course a great enabler for things like Gardens and Duke, and the attack is relevant against people also going for those cards.

Conclusion?  I'm going to go with "too close to call".
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: WanderingWinder on January 05, 2012, 10:36:25 pm
Superior in what way? I have tried and found that it does not beat it heads-up.

What bots are you using?
Well back when I did it, I put less time and effort into the oracle bot than you did. But just now, using the ones in geronimoo's simulator (your oracle and my smithy), smithy wins 49-42.

Using this improved bot, I get as close as 44-47 (or 48 depending on the batch):
Code: [Select]
`<player name="Oracle" author="WW" description="The optimized Oracle bot that buys no other actions."> <type name="Province"/> <type name="Optimized"/> <type name="UserCreated"/> <type name="BigMoney"/> <type name="Generated"/> <type name="TwoPlayer"/> <type name="Bot"/> <type name="SingleCard"/>   <buy name="Province">      <condition>         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>         <operator type="greaterThan" />         <right type="constant" attribute="16.0"/>      </condition>   </buy>   <buy name="Duchy">      <condition>         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>      </condition>   </buy>   <buy name="Estate">      <condition>         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>      </condition>   </buy>   <buy name="Gold"/>   <buy name="Duchy">      <condition>         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>      </condition>   </buy>   <buy name="Oracle">      <condition>         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Oracle"/>         <operator type="smallerThan" />         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>      </condition>      <condition>         <left type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Treasure"/>         <operator type="greaterThan" />         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>      </condition>   </buy>   <buy name="Oracle">      <condition>         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Oracle"/>         <operator type="smallerThan" />         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>      </condition>      <condition>         <left type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Treasure"/>         <operator type="greaterThan" />         <right type="constant" attribute="9.0"/>      </condition>   </buy>   <buy name="Oracle">      <condition>         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Oracle"/>         <operator type="smallerThan" />         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>      </condition>      <condition>         <left type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Treasure"/>         <operator type="greaterThan" />         <right type="constant" attribute="16.0"/>      </condition>   </buy>   <buy name="Silver"/>   <buy name="Estate">      <condition>         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>      </condition>   </buy></player>`
But your smithy bot is significantly better than what I'd tested against.

However, seeing as the sim misplays oracle probably much more than it does smithy, who knows which is better?
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on January 06, 2012, 04:15:07 am

Using this improved bot, I get as close as 44-47 (or 48 depending on the batch):
Code: [Select]
`<player name="Oracle" author="WW" description="The optimized Oracle bot that buys no other actions.">`
But your smithy bot is significantly better than what I'd tested against.

However, seeing as the sim misplays oracle probably much more than it does smithy, who knows which is better?

Yeah, 47-44 is definitely withing margin of error of the play rules. When Hinterlands first came out, I thought oracle should beat smithy+money, but at this point I'm not really convinced. I think if the smithy player buys the second smithy a bit earlier (before the second shuffle instead of the third), he becomes a little safer from the attack and is probably at an advantage. However, I think oracle openings transitioning into something else most likely beat smithy+money.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Qvist on January 07, 2012, 08:34:01 am
Wow, I'm one day not at home and so many new posts here!

Your comments showed that Black Market and Smugglers seem to rank too high and Woodcutter, Oracle and Fortune Teller too low.

I can't help but feel like the blurb about develop has the idea of the card all wrong. You say that a trasher has to be a good beginning game card, but that's just because all previous ones have been. With the top-decking of the two cards you get it feels very much like a mid/late game card. You can trash your \$4 into a Duchy if you really feel like you need to, or you can trash it into a Village/Torturer, or a Fishing Village/Wharf, or your \$5 into a GM or Goons/Throne Room, or a \$6 into KC/Mountebank or Torturer or whatever. I'm not saying that necessarily makes it that good of a card at all, just that that seems to be more of the purpose of it, rather than an early game trasher or a late game victory card getter.
Yeah, Develop may not be designed as a opening trasher. It may have gotten so low because everybody thinks so and compares it to other trashers. The problem with Develop still is the same. There are rare scenarios where Develop shines as there have to be good cards in a specific price range.

Loan had the highest variance and your comments prove that. If anybody likes to do some basic simulations with Loan, I would be glad to read the result.

And a quick note to Oracle: I agree, it looked weak at the beginning and it's a good card in BM games. I think the reason why it ranked to low, it's still not widely used as it is still a relatively new card and may definitely be underrated.

Fortune Teller is the worst attack in the game

I agree with like 95 percent of what you're saying here, but... Fortune Teller is far from the worst attack in the game.  Thief, Noble Brigand, Pirate Ship, Saboteur and possibly Bureaucrat too all say hello.

You're right, of course. When I wrote that I had "As there is no Attack card for \$2, look at the worst attack in the game." in my head from the list text. I didn't stop to think that there could be a worse attack at a higher cost, and there are in fact many. Not Bureucrat though. Bureaucrat is a great card. My only other major problem with the list text that I'd suggest changing is the part about Shanty Town where it says you can play one followed by two terminals and then another ST. That's just plain wrong.

Regarding the "worst attack of the game" talk. You confused me with your
As long as you understand Qvist didn't mean it the way you mean it, and no one else means it in that way either, then I think we're clear!

I just want to clarify. All my texts are meant to be objective, or in other words, the reasons why I think you put a specific card on a specific rank.
When I write: "As there is no Attack card for \$2, look at the worst attack in the game." This may or may not my personal opinion. Yeah, I didn't even think about cards in a higher price level. I just thought: "Ok, that's the first attack card in the list. It's the worst attack for \$3 and there is no attack for \$2, so it must be the worst attack in the game." Comparing Fortune Teller with Thief of Bureacrat is difficult. Because of that I didn't make a list of all 157 cards, so we have no decisions in comparing King's Court with Chapel. So I totally agree with TINAS here. I also changed the text of Shanty Town, that was a error of course.

Very nice work, Qvist.  Kudos.
Thank you.

I hope I haven't missed some comments which you wrote directly to me and I'm going to post the second part soon.

One thing I like to add thou:
I can understand the complaining of Black Market, Smugglers and Fortune Teller. But it were you who ranked those cards and it is weighted ranking. I think it is a very good portrayal of your opinion. There were several 40+ players who ranked those cards in the range where it is now. So it would be nice to hear some counter-arguments too.

Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Qvist on January 07, 2012, 05:45:35 pm
The Best \$3 Cards - Part 2/2
Link to the win rates on Councilroom (http://councilroom.com/win_weighted_accum_turn.html?cards=Cost%3D%3D3)
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom (http://councilroom.com/win_rate_diff_accum.html?cards=Cost%3D%3D3)

To the \$4 cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1465.0)
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: dondon151 on January 07, 2012, 06:58:34 pm
Minor nitpick: the statistical term is "outliers," not "outliners." Good work nonetheless.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Robz888 on January 07, 2012, 08:43:34 pm
I only have a few complaints about the rankings here. Specifically, Steward should be ranked worse, and Tunnel better.

Perhaps it's just me, but Steward keeps losing relevance in most Kingdoms it appears. If I buy it, I'm almost always using it for money, in which case I should just buy Silver. The trashing is nice, but as Qvist noted, the "Should I trash with it or buy Gold?" is a dilemma that similar low-cost trashers like Moneylender, Salvager, and Masquerade just don't face. That said, it's variance still makes Steward good (especially useful in kingdoms with extra +Actions, so that you can use it for +2 cards on occasion), but I don't think it's Top 5 good.

Tunnel, on the other hand, is either Top 5 good or close to it. Rare is the kingdom without any ability to discard cards from your hand. And so many of those discarders are cards you would want even without Tunnel (Cartographer, Vault, Oasis, Warehouse, Minion, etc.) that Tunnel, in the presence of these cards and others, is truly dominating.

But those are small points... on the whole, this ranking and the others were very good. The wisdom of crowds...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DrHades on January 07, 2012, 09:26:50 pm
Tunnel, on the other hand, is either Top 5 good or close to it. Rare is the kingdom without any ability to discard cards from your hand. And so many of those discarders are cards you would want even without Tunnel (Cartographer, Vault, Oasis, Warehouse, Minion, etc.) that Tunnel, in the presence of these cards and others, is truly dominating.

I don't really think that it is dominating. I saw Tunnel lost many times. It is outstanding with Minion and very handy with Vault (because you are discarding it in your turn AND in your opponent's turn), but with Cartographer or Warehouse, it is not superior to anything. It is a very good card, it would still be very good most of the times without the VPs, but it's a bit of trap sometimes ("Okay, so I got 7 Golds in my deck while my opponent has only 2...and 3 Provinces...")  :) I think it should not be higher than it is (I had it as #13).

But there was one much bigger surprise to me:

#8 Watchtower (my rank: #18): Can someone explain this to me please? I really don't know what is so great about Watchtower...I mean - it almost always draws 2 cards (like Moat), it "stops" most of the attacks (like Moat) and it can put a card on top of your deck when you don't play it. It is a solid reaction, but what's to like so much here?
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: shark_bait on January 07, 2012, 09:53:50 pm

But there was one much bigger surprise to me:

#8 Watchtower (my rank: #18): Can someone explain this to me please? I really don't know what is so great about Watchtower...I mean - it almost always draws 2 cards (like Moat), it "stops" most of the attacks (like Moat) and it can put a card on top of your deck when you don't play it. It is a solid reaction, but what's to like so much here?

Time to defend watchtower's honor!  First, if you're using it for a mere 2 cards, you're probably not using it right and you probably shouldn't have bought it in the first place.  It's a unique defense that covers replenishing your hand size AND the ability to trash incoming junk.  Combined with the fact that it's offensive power allows you to deplete your hand size and then draw back up to 6.  Play some villages (even shanty town and native village are great), play a terminal or 2 and then draw back up to 6 cards!  It's also very rare for a terminal collision to be detrimental because you can make use of the top decking power by keeping it in hand and playing a different action.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: dondon151 on January 07, 2012, 10:33:23 pm
Well, a terminal collision with Watchtower -is- detrimental because that's one card less that you have to, presumably, buy something better, but it's not as bad because you can topdeck whatever you buy. And if you get to \$5 or \$6 anyway, you're happy both ways.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: brokoli on January 08, 2012, 06:59:03 am
Watchtower : I agree with Dr.Hades about this. Watchtower is probably the best defense against attacks. But when there aren't attacks, or when your opponent doesn't attack you, Watchtower is totally useless.
Library is really good, but Watchtower is weak. Even against a militia... it's risky.

Scheme : I put it in #9, but now I think I overrated scheme. Good, but never awesome. Like spy. I don't remember any game where scheme was important. The only exception is with King's court.

Swindler : The most overrated attack in the game, IMO.

Ambassador/Masquerade : Excellent cards, but I'm surprised to see so many high ranks. I find Menagerie, Tunnel, Fishing village, Warehouse and Steward much better !

Lookout : I agree about the rank. But... It's very, very rare, when you draw 3 provinces/colonies with lookout. Never happened for me. Sometimes I trashed a gold, but never a province/colony.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: jotheonah on January 08, 2012, 09:12:12 am
In a Mountebank/Witch/Saboteur/Possession game without villages, buying a bunch of Schemes and one of the attack is devastating. I remember one game where I chose to ignore Possession. My opponent bought only one and I thought the game would be over before he could ever use it.  He possessed me very turn. I asked in the comments "How are you doing this??" and he typed back "Scheme, yo."  And that is how I learned the power of Scheme.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: yuma on January 08, 2012, 10:21:25 am
This is my first input into these lists--aside from voting--and my biggest complaints are tunnel and scheme as high as they are. I am looking forward to TINAS in depth response to scheme, although I wouldn't rank it quite as low as he. But for me tunnel can be killer it a bad way. Even with self discards I am rare to buy it because of the danger of drawing it to start with and taking up hand slots for the discarding card, money or other actions. I only like using it with cards such as warehouse or young witch were I am drawing and even then I will rarely open with it. It can be a good card if +buy is around, but most of the time it takes way too long for the gold to be obtained and cycled back into my deck to be useful, and in the mean time nondiscarded tunnels are barely more worthwhile estates. Tunnel certainly isn't the worst of the \$3, but I don't know if it belongs so high. Oh, and steward is much too high.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: brokoli on January 08, 2012, 11:19:57 am
Tunnel is awesome. Really. I just played a game where I had two tunnels, my opponent had six. He succeed to have a lot of golds (simply by oasis !) and me no (I don't had a good action/draw engine). He won greatly. Tunnel is the new cheap hoard, and it's useful 80% of the time. I put it at #3.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: jsh357 on January 08, 2012, 12:06:28 pm
Although stuff like scheme/goons and kc/scheme is really great I can't really see it in the top 10.  Too often it just doesn't do enough to make a difference (or spends the whole game going back on top and rarely hitting the card you got it for), and it can be a bad card to have against discard attacks in my experience.  I also wonder if Swindler belongs as high as it is, but that could just be because it never works for me and always works for my opponents.  I think this list is OK for the most part, though, disagreements aside.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Kore on January 08, 2012, 01:42:01 pm
Tunnel is "bad" for the same reason that Cache is bad. You can use it to get gold but you're still diluting your deck with other cards. If you use a tunnel for gold only once, you've increased your \$/card by less than buying a silver would have. If you use it twice, it's equal to buying a silver. Tunnels don't even increase your buying power right away, you'll have to go through a reshuffle after activating it before the gold will appear in your deck.

That being said, I don't think tunnels are really bad just overrated currently. If you can discard and cycle your deck to activate tunnels, you're well suited to having a deck with high variance and the 2VP from tunnels shouldn't be overlooked. However, on some boards tunnels + discard is too slow compared to alternate strategies and I see people going for them even when they should be ignored.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Anon79 on January 08, 2012, 09:01:02 pm
Tunnel is "bad" for the same reason that Cache is bad. You can use it to get gold but you're still diluting your deck with other cards. If you use a tunnel for gold only once, you've increased your \$/card by less than buying a silver would have.
The difference being you don't have to reach \$6 before you get your Gold.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Beyond Awesome on January 08, 2012, 10:14:34 pm
Tunnel is "bad" for the same reason that Cache is bad. You can use it to get gold but you're still diluting your deck with other cards. If you use a tunnel for gold only once, you've increased your \$/card by less than buying a silver would have. If you use it twice, it's equal to buying a silver. Tunnels don't even increase your buying power right away, you'll have to go through a reshuffle after activating it before the gold will appear in your deck.

That being said, I don't think tunnels are really bad just overrated currently. If you can discard and cycle your deck to activate tunnels, you're well suited to having a deck with high variance and the 2VP from tunnels shouldn't be overlooked. However, on some boards tunnels + discard is too slow compared to alternate strategies and I see people going for them even when they should be ignored.

Certain cheap cards like Warehose, Oasis, Secret Chamber enable Tunnel to trigger very early in the game and multiple times. By the time you would normally reach \$6, you may have already gained 3 or 4 golds off of a Tunnel. With more costly discard such as Inn then, yes, normally, you won't get the gold as quick, but you will still have many triggers, anyway. At least, usually. It really depends on what you open Tunnel with. Usually, though, the discard is good enough that it is worth going for a tunnel or two or three.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: jotheonah on January 08, 2012, 10:18:56 pm
Tunnel is "bad" for the same reason that Cache is bad. You can use it to get gold but you're still diluting your deck with other cards. If you use a tunnel for gold only once, you've increased your \$/card by less than buying a silver would have.
The difference being you don't have to reach \$6 before you get your Gold.

Tunnel gains you gold over and over again at the expense of having more green in your deck. Cache gets you "Gold" once at the expense of having more Copper. So without Trashing you can easily reach a point where you have more Gold than Tunnels, but without Trashing you can never have more Caches than Copper. The comparison is pretty superficial.

Cache shines in situations where \$/card is not the most helpful thing, possibly because selective drawing is in play. For instance, Hunting Party might find your Cache and skip your Coppers.  Tunnel is much better in those situations because Tunnel is not a treasure, so if you're working with Venture, Adventurer, Farming Village, Scout, Crossroads, Cartographer it might be totally worth it to have some early Gold at the expense of extra green.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: WanderingWinder on January 08, 2012, 10:25:44 pm
I actually think tunnel is a big-time trap card. It's discard ability is really shiny, and when it connects, it's oh so sweet. But without some premium enablers, it's actually sorta hard to get collided, especially when nowadays there's usually a pretty fast baseline to beat, and you aren't slowing that down if you're going for tunnel (except with the super-powerful Young Witch/Tunnel combo).
Having said that... 2 VP for \$3 is quite nice, and it really changes the complexion of the game, giving people who have roaring engines a bigger VP bank to soak up when trying to catch up, and giving endgames a totally different flavor, because you may miss \$5 relatively often, but if you can muster just \$3 you've got a pretty darn nice consolation. So it's not a bad card either, even though it's a shiny trap.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Anon79 on January 08, 2012, 11:30:01 pm
Cache shines in situations where \$/card is not the most helpful thing, possibly because selective drawing is in play. For instance, Hunting Party might find your Cache and skip your Coppers.  Tunnel is much better in those situations because Tunnel is not a treasure, so if you're working with Venture, Adventurer, Farming Village, Scout, Crossroads, Cartographer it might be totally worth it to have some early Gold at the expense of extra green.
You seem to be saying that both Cache and Tunnel are good when selective drawing is in play? But earlier you said the comparison is superficial...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: jotheonah on January 09, 2012, 08:37:01 am
To clarify: Kore is right that both Tunnel and Cache give you a quick Gold at the expense of clogging your deck, so they both hurt your \$/card.  But the way they do that is so different that there's plenty of space for Tunnel to be a much more useful card in more situations.  A few selective drawing situations make Cache good (Hunting Party, Counting House). A lot of selective drawing situations make Tunnel good.  Also, Tunnel is way cheaper.

Superficial was the wrong word.  The comparison is valid, but shallow.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Kore on January 09, 2012, 01:55:08 pm
I'm not really disagreeing with you Jotheonah, there are boards out there that make tunnel a useful card. Warehouse/Tunnel isn't bad or young witch/Tunnel is pretty good but I've seen people open with tunnel when the only discard was horse traders or cellar. Secret chamber also seems like a poor enabler though I haven't run the simulations. The reaction ability of tunnel seems to lure people in even when they have no good way to ensure they draw their tunnels with their discarders. I might try something with tunnel and a sub-optimal discarder if there was nothing else good on the board but I wouldn't play it over a standard BM + good enabler.

I'm also of the opinion that the golem/tunnel combo is overrated though I've lost to it before. You need to spend 4-5 buys on things like potions, golems and tunnels which don't help you at all until the combo comes together just so you can flood your deck with gold while your opponent should be greening.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: jotheonah on January 09, 2012, 03:31:08 pm
Yeah. Having Gold is only half the battle. Not having a ton of other crap is the other half (or at least, being able to draw at least 3 gold together somehow).
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: jomini on January 09, 2012, 04:25:53 pm
One note I'd correct on the list: Great Hall has several cards other than IW that it pairs up well with; I doubt it changes rankings a whit, but it can be better than silver pretty early with some of the following combos:
Scrying pool: GH is a free net card, given the shortage of 3 coin self-replacing cards this often the best 3 coin buy in a scrying pool game
Scout: See scrying pool; though scout tends to lack the drawing power to make even GH/Scout viable on its own.
Crossroads: Another free + card, but it can also be used multiple times
Cartographer/Apothecary (Spy/Pearl Diver/etc).: When you know you can control the top of your deck, GH can be a cheap way to draw your next engine card into hand and leave your cartographers and apothecaries to dig deeper into the deck, again most any self replacing card will work here, but again there are very few that are as cheap as GH.

On a larger note, in 2 player GH is a quick pile to empty for your third pile. It's cheap and it only takes 8 buys.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: jotheonah on January 09, 2012, 04:59:32 pm
Great Hall is a soft-counter to Fortune Teller and sometimes Bureaucrat.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: brokoli on January 09, 2012, 05:10:46 pm
Transmute can be amazing with Great Hall : You gain a duchy and a gold. It's like when you buy a duchy with hoard.
Trade route is nice when Great hall is on the board.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DrHades on January 10, 2012, 08:57:30 am
One note I'd correct on the list: Great Hall has several cards other than IW that it pairs up well with; I doubt it changes rankings a whit, but it can be better than silver pretty early with some of the following combos:
Scrying pool: GH is a free net card, given the shortage of 3 coin self-replacing cards this often the best 3 coin buy in a scrying pool game
Scout: See scrying pool; though scout tends to lack the drawing power to make even GH/Scout viable on its own.
Crossroads: Another free + card, but it can also be used multiple times
Cartographer/Apothecary (Spy/Pearl Diver/etc).: When you know you can control the top of your deck, GH can be a cheap way to draw your next engine card into hand and leave your cartographers and apothecaries to dig deeper into the deck, again most any self replacing card will work here, but again there are very few that are as cheap as GH.

On a larger note, in 2 player GH is a quick pile to empty for your third pile. It's cheap and it only takes 8 buys.

I really like Scout+Crossroad+"green that do someting good" combo, but to be honest, it is really not very good. You need many cards to pull that combo and unless there is Great Hall AND Harem it is really not worth it...

You are right with Scrying Pool, but still - I think Wishing Well, Hamlet or Menagerie is much better than Great Hall for Scrying Pool engine...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: jomini on January 10, 2012, 01:36:46 pm
The thing with cross roads & scout is more situational. If you need those cards regardless (e.g. cross roads is the only +action out there and you are playing estate tennis), it becomes a better card.

Of the self-replacing 3 coin or less cards the ones better than GH for a pool deck are:
menage
village (only if you still need +action)
ww
hamlet (only if you still need +action or +buy)
oasis
warehouse
scheme
pawn

argueably:
pearl diver

sure, most all of those are likely better with pool decks, but my criteria was better than silver and GH has a number of times where it is most likely a better addition to your deck than silver.

As I said, I doubt this changes the rankings, but there are situational uses for GH and I think it earns it middling ranking honestly.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Jimmmmm on January 10, 2012, 08:53:24 pm
I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but I think it would have been cool to include Silver in this list (and obviously Estate in the \$2 list etc). Where would people put Silver here?
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DrHades on January 10, 2012, 09:05:32 pm
I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but I think it would have been cool to include Silver in this list (and obviously Estate in the \$2 list etc). Where would people put Silver here?

I would put it right under my top8 (Ambassador, Watehouse, Fishing Village, Masquerade, Swindler, Scheme, Steward, Menagerie). Silver is very good and universal card, I buy it in almost every game...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on January 10, 2012, 11:47:42 pm
Watchtower : I agree with Dr.Hades about this. Watchtower is probably the best defense against attacks. But when there aren't attacks, or when your opponent doesn't attack you, Watchtower is totally useless.
Library is really good, but Watchtower is weak. Even against a militia... it's risky.

Scheme : I put it in #9, but now I think I overrated scheme. Good, but never awesome. Like spy. I don't remember any game where scheme was important. The only exception is with King's court.

Swindler : The most overrated attack in the game, IMO.

Ambassador/Masquerade : Excellent cards, but I'm surprised to see so many high ranks. I find Menagerie, Tunnel, Fishing village, Warehouse and Steward much better !

Lookout : I agree about the rank. But... It's very, very rare, when you draw 3 provinces/colonies with lookout. Never happened for me. Sometimes I trashed a gold, but never a province/colony.

I have some bones to respectfully pick.

Watchtower is an excellent card.  It has a very decent engine potential, its topdeck ability is far from useless and it can pull off some tricky stunts.  University, Hamlet, Mint, Alchemist and many other cards sync up great with it.  The defensive capabilities are the icing, not the other way around.

Scheme is a very very good card unless it isn't.

Swindler is probably, IMO, the strongest \$3 attack other than Ambassador.  I know the competition is thin, and luck plays a factor when using it, but it has the potential to cause some serious problems.

Ambassador/Masq are the elite \$3 cards and probably would remain so if they cost \$4.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: TheMathProf on January 11, 2012, 12:04:15 am
I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but I think it would have been cool to include Silver in this list (and obviously Estate in the \$2 list etc). Where would people put Silver here?

It's a little hard to rank Silver, IMO.  I think it's very hard to go through a game without buying a Silver.  But I think most of the \$3 cards fall into one of two camps:

• I should buy Silver before buying one of these cards (i.e. Village, commonly)

But I've found that buying Silver usually happens, and it's just a matter of when...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: dondon151 on January 11, 2012, 12:17:17 am
Scheme is a very very good card unless it isn't.

Have to agree with this. In kingdoms with attacks, Scheme is basically an attack that costs \$3. Especially true for attacks that don't give +cards, where it's impossible to draw Scheme dead. It's powerful in circumstances where you need a combo to draw your whole deck, and that's really just scratching the surface.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on January 11, 2012, 02:06:47 am
Swindler : The most overrated attack in the game, IMO.
As I mentioned in my article about opening terminals, swindler is massively stronger in 2-player than in 3/4-player. In 2-player it is obscenely strong. If you hit one of your opponents key cards early, it's like a free win. Early in the game, close to 10% of your cards are critical, and losing one puts you impossibly behind. So swindler has a 10% chance of free win, and the rest of the time is a decent attack. If you add a 10% chance of free win to any attack -- even thief -- it becomes a pretty good card...

I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but I think it would have been cool to include Silver in this list (and obviously Estate in the \$2 list etc). Where would people put Silver here?
I don't think it makes sense to include silver, since it's always in the supply. I guess it has to be #1. I buy masq in maybe 6% of games (the rest of the time it's not even in the supply), and silver in like 85% of games, so I buy silver way more often, by a landslide...

Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: Qvist on January 11, 2012, 08:33:59 am
Minor nitpick: the statistical term is "outliers," not "outliners." Good work nonetheless.
Oh, thanks for the hint. I seem to have mixed it up. I'll change that.

I've gotta say, these community card rankings turned out really great, it worked much better than I thought it would.

I'd bet that Qvist's decision to weight by isotropic rank is really helping to keep the numbers in line.  (That and the readers here are generally pretty good at Dominion to begin with.)
I was concerned too, especially in the beginning with few entries, where the order was very strange. With better players sending in their lists it seemed clear to me to make a weighted average. In the end, I can say it didn't change much, a card change here and there. It was more important that many experienced players had sent in their lists, so thanks for all your lists again.

So, the biggest talking points seem to be Scheme, Tunnel, Steward and Swindler.
Scheme: I agree with dondon151, making it a cheap attack is great. And it is a good defense agains Young Witch. It is a nice addition to all decks, it's not outstanding, but deserves its high rank.
Tunnel: Many seem to forget the 2 VP for \$3. And that you can generate Golds too is great. Especially if you'd buy the Tunnel enablers (like Embassy or Young Witch) either way.
Steward: It is a very good card, but I was a little surprised it got #4 too. I expected to rank #7 or #6, but it seems that the half Chapel that is still good afterwards is very powerful and liked, even for the top players.
Swindler: It's swingy, but can be devastating. I recently got crushed by Swindler, although I had 5/2 with opening Mountebank.

I'm sorry that the last list update happened already a few days ago, but I will post the first \$4 cards in a few hours.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$4 cards Part 2/3 posted
Post by: DrHades on January 11, 2012, 10:02:29 am
I don't think it makes sense to include silver, since it's always in the supply. I guess it has to be #1. I buy masq in maybe 6% of games (the rest of the time it's not even in the supply), and silver in like 85% of games, so I buy silver way more often, by a landslide...

Well that depends on how exactly are you comparing 2 cards. I do it more or less by 2 criterias:

1. How often is a good idea to buy this card when it's on the board (here Silver stands good - I think in most games you do a good job buying some).

2. How often is devastating not buying this card (here Silver is not so great - finding alternative strategy which doesn't need a Silver is often easy).

I agree that the list is better without common cards, but I think it is possible to rank them. Comparing 2 cards only by how often you buy them doesn't seem right to me...

I'm sorry that the last list update happened already a few days ago, but I will post the first \$4 cards in a few hours.

Yay!  ;D
Post by: Quadell on April 06, 2012, 02:45:06 pm
I find it fascinating that Ambassador, a \$3 attack, is listed as the best \$3 card in the game, while Fortune Teller, another \$3 attack, is fourth from the bottom. (Qvist even calls Ambassador "the best attack relative to its cost" while calling Fortune Teller "the worst attack in the game".) And yet the simulations at Dominiate (http://rspeer.github.com/dominiate/play.html) seem to tell a very different story.

When you play the predefined "Double Ambassador" strategy against a "Double Fortune Teller" strategy (exactly the same, but replace "Ambassador" with "Fortune Teller" in the code), the Fortune Teller strategy wins 55% of the time. In fact, when I experiment with other strategies (buying only one, or buying three plus Laboratories, etc.), Fortune Teller seems to beat Ambassador every time. What gives? Why would the community judge Ambassador as so much better, when it loses in a head to head match-up?  :o
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: rrenaud on April 06, 2012, 02:54:52 pm
Ambassador rewards small decks, creativity, engines, etc.  These things don't simulate well, and you didn't really attempt to simulate them at all.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 06, 2012, 02:56:32 pm
I find it fascinating that Ambassador, a \$3 attack, is listed as the best \$3 card in the game, while Fortune Teller, another \$3 attack, is fourth from the bottom. (Qvist even calls Ambassador "the best attack relative to its cost" while calling Fortune Teller "the worst attack in the game".) And yet the simulations at Dominiate (http://rspeer.github.com/dominiate/play.html) seem to tell a very different story.

When you play the predefined "Double Ambassador" strategy against a "Double Fortune Teller" strategy (exactly the same, but replace "Ambassador" with "Fortune Teller" in the code), the Fortune Teller strategy wins 55% of the time. In fact, when I experiment with other strategies (buying only one, or buying three plus Laboratories, etc.), Fortune Teller seems to beat Ambassador every time. What gives? Why would the community judge Ambassador as so much better, when it loses in a head to head match-up?  :o
Because you never play a game with just 1 card :) Ambassador's biggest strength is in building a big, rolling engine, while stopping your opponent from doing anything too great at the same time.
Actually, even that surprises me though - ambassador is not good for money, but it's not THAT bad, and fortune teller's nothing special. So I'm guessing it's not playing it totally right. Also, for BM, you probably only want one ambassador. Now, why is there a pre-defined double amb strat? I don't know
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Tables on April 06, 2012, 02:59:39 pm
There are a few possible reasons. as WW has pointed out. But I have double Ambassador winning 53-42 in Geronimoo's simulator against the optimised Fortune Teller Bot (and the Ambassador bot isn't optimised). So there's something going on in Dominiate.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Quadell on April 06, 2012, 08:50:12 pm
In a hand with one Estate and two Copper, Dominiate's Ambassadors return the one estate rather than the coppers. Is this optimal? Otherwise, I don't see a problem.

I don't think Fortune Teller is great, but I suspect it's undervalued in games where there's not a great engine to build. It soundly beats most other \$3 "Silver plus" cards (e.g. Woodcutter) in a head-to-head buy-one-card-only matchup. I know real games aren't played that way, but in cases where you need +\$2 terminals (Duke rush, Hunting Party, etc.) I think it's a solid choice.

And Ambassador may just be somewhat overrated. Assuming Dominiate's Ambassador play isn't broken, I can't find an easy-to-simulate strategy that buys Ambassadors and consistently beats an identical strategy that buys Fortune Teller instead. (For instance, buying Libraries and Caravans and one Ambassador does slightly worse than one buying Libraries and Caravans and one Fortune Teller.)
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Tables on April 06, 2012, 09:16:09 pm
1) Fortune Teller is a card that is just played, then has it's effect, that's it. There's no thinking in how to play the card. With Ambassador, there is, and the more thinking in playing the card, the worse it's simulated.

2) Libraries and Caravans loses to BMU. And in Geronimoo's simulator (which is generally more accurate) I have a skeleton Library/Caravan +Ambassador bot winning 66/32 against an equivalent Fortune Teller one. In fact, the Fortune Teller one loses to such a bot that buys a silver instead about 57/38! (The Ambassador bot wins 39/57).

3) The fact is, Fortune Teller is generally a poor way to use your terminal action, and in fact against Ambassador (which gets rid of green card) it's even worse. Bot comparison isn't the way to go here. It's the assessment of how well each card does in real games, with real situations, and ambassador almost always needs an answer - be it heavy trashing, reaction to gains, or - more often than not - getting an ambassador of your own. Fortune Teller, on the other hand, is pretty ignorable. It's a terminal silver that often gives your opponent a 4 card hand next turn. Wow.

If you really want to do more comparisons, I strongly suggest using Geronimoo's simulator. It's a lot more accurate for tricky to play cards, although it's by no means optimal.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Geronimoo on April 07, 2012, 04:26:34 am
Ambassador is fine when there's some engine potential. If you win the Ambassador war, you'll have a thin deck enabling your engine while your opponent's engine is going to fail due to the bloated deck. And there's a cumulative effect because your engine will allow more frequent Ambassadoring. All of this is just not happening in a big money game. Extra Coppers and Estates don't hurt so much while thin big money decks are actually hurt a lot by greening.
So the Ambassador actually simulates quite well for Big Money games, but it's just not very good in those decks.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: DStu on April 11, 2012, 01:09:43 am
Code: [Select]
` "[Curse, 2]"      "[Curse, 1]"      "[Curse, 0]"      # Handle a silly case:      "[Ambassador, 2]"      "[Estate, 2]"      "[Estate, 1]"      # Make sure we have at least \$5 in the deck, including if we buy a Silver.      "[Copper, 2]" if my.getTreasureInHand() < 3 and my.getTotalMoney() >= 5      "[Copper, 2]" if my.getTreasureInHand() >= 5      "[Copper, 2]" if my.getTreasureInHand() == 3 and my.getTotalMoney() >= 7      "[Copper, 1]" if my.getTreasureInHand() < 3 and my.getTotalMoney() >= 4      "[Copper, 1]" if my.getTreasureInHand() >= 4      "[Estate, 0]"      "[Copper, 0]"      "[Potion, 2]"      "[Potion, 1]"`This can surely be optimized...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Marin on May 27, 2012, 01:18:41 pm
I am really disagree with develop and black market!
You need in 90% of games buy black market because they are almost cards like goons, wharf, kc , mountebank.... (for me Black market is in the top 8)
And develop, ok it s often a bad card... but when they are cost 7 cards for example, it become really strong and even without it s not so bad to trash a cost 4 cards for a wharf village(on the deck!)...
And moreover cards like chancellor or fortune teller are so useless, i don t understand how they can be behind develop...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Marin on May 27, 2012, 01:21:33 pm
before* (develop is behind fortune teller and chancellor)
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: werothegreat on May 27, 2012, 01:22:44 pm
I am really disagree with develop and black market!
You need in 90% of games buy black market because they are almost cards like goons, wharf, kc , mountebank.... (for me Black market is in the top 8)
And develop, ok it s often a bad card... but when they are cost 7 cards for example, it become really strong and even without it s not so bad to trash a cost 4 cards for a wharf village(on the deck!)...
And moreover cards like chancellor or fortune teller are so useless, i don t understand how they can be behind develop...

Black Market is so low because
1) It makes games annoying
2) It takes way too long to get the Black Marketed cards when you should be focusing on cards already on the table
3) Certain cards pop up in the Black Market which are useless by themselves, like Treasure Map or Fool's Gold
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: werothegreat on May 27, 2012, 01:24:16 pm
before* (develop is behind fortune teller and chancellor)

And Fortune Teller and Chancellor are useful more often than Develop.  When Fortune Teller and Chancellor are good, they are very good.  Develop is always kinda meh.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on May 27, 2012, 01:32:32 pm
before* (develop is behind fortune teller and chancellor)

And Fortune Teller and Chancellor are useful more often than Develop.  When Fortune Teller and Chancellor are good, they are very good.  Develop is always kinda meh.

I disagree. When Develop is good, it is very good. It is just good so very rarely that it's such a terrible card on average. Fortune Teller and Chancellor are never that special, but they're always a terminal silver with a benefit for \$3, which if you have the actions or no better terminal available, is better than a Silver.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: BJ Penn on May 27, 2012, 01:54:04 pm
Can somebody explain the logic of Steward at 4?

Menagerie, Swindler, and Scheme completely out-class it in my opinion.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on May 27, 2012, 01:56:54 pm
Can somebody explain the logic of Steward at 4?

Menagerie, Swindler, and Scheme completely out-class it in my opinion.

Probably the same reason Chapel is number 1 on the \$2 list. People around here are still obsessed with trashing despite the game moving on. Don't get me wrong, both cards are strong, just not nearly as strong as they used to be.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: yuma on May 27, 2012, 06:46:19 pm
Can somebody explain the logic of Steward at 4?

Menagerie, Swindler, and Scheme completely out-class it in my opinion.

I think it is ok at 4... the difference between 4 and 7 isn't that far apart. What I like about Steward is that it is ok a lot of different things--although not at the same type obviously and is adaptable as the game progresses. Decent trasher, decent card draw, decent \$ generator. Not a must buy always but neither are the three you mention. I would put Menagerie above it, but probably not the other two.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Morgrim7 on May 27, 2012, 06:54:38 pm
Not totally taken off guard by anything…except for Develop being the worst. What? Below Chancellor? Really? Develop is NOT that bad!
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Tables on May 27, 2012, 07:18:08 pm
You're using Chancellor as your comparison. What? Really? Chancellor is NOT that bad! It's a decent terminal \$2, and has one very powerful combo at least. Develop needs very specific circumstances to not be total garbage.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Robz888 on May 27, 2012, 07:25:40 pm
The activity in this thread caused me to go over the list again. I am really, really struck by how mis-ranked Oracle is. It doesn't belong in the bottom third at all. I would also put Fortune Teller at least a couple slots higher. Develop and Chancellor absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, deserve last and second last place.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Morgrim7 on May 27, 2012, 07:28:34 pm
You're using Chancellor as your comparison. What? Really? Chancellor is NOT that bad! It's a decent terminal \$2, and has one very powerful combo at least. Develop needs very specific circumstances to not be total garbage.
No, here are some good examples of Develop being a good card:
-Cursers, no other trashing.
-Border Village w/\$7 card
-Familiar w/Golem and 2P
-Sea Hag
-Cutpurse
-Any other card that loses its value later in the game.

Chancellor is good with Stash. Other than that, it is usually garbage.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: ehunt on May 27, 2012, 07:37:56 pm
on a board where chancellor is the only terminal, i'll basically always pick one up. on a board where develop is the only terminal, i'll basically always ignore it.

separately, i prefer chancellor to fortune teller.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Eevee on May 27, 2012, 07:45:35 pm
on a board where chancellor is the only terminal, i'll basically always pick one up. on a board where develop is the only terminal, i'll basically always ignore it.

separately, i prefer chancellor to fortune teller.
if stash isn't present, taking fortune teller over chancellor any day.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Tables on May 27, 2012, 08:06:46 pm
First I'll just point out calling Develop total garbage was a slight exaggeration, it's more... very weak in most cases.

No, here are some good examples of Develop being a good card:
-Cursers, no other trashing.

No. Unless the game is going to end up being really long anyway because of other brutal attacks, you're going to be better off buying a silver or other \$3, rather than adding an extra essentially dead card to your deck so you might be able to use your action twice if you collide it with a curse to gain 1 VP and get rid of a dead card. I did a little testing with e.g. BM+Witch against BM+Witch+Develop for example, and the best conditions I could get for the Develop were basically the ones that bought the Develop as late as possible (e.g. if you have >=6 curses is a pretty close loss - if you have 6 curses, you're probably gonna lose anyway, but buying the Develop still hurts you!)

Quote
-Border Village w/\$7 card

Border Village, Develop, and one of four cards costing \$7? That falls comfortably into the extremely rare conditions category. Not to mention it's not even that good. You need to actually draw the BV and a Develop together, and well, which \$7 were you really hoping to fit into a BV/Develop strategies? It's going to depend a lot on the \$5's, and that makes it even harder to be successful.

Quote
-Familiar w/Golem and 2P

Even rarer conditions than above, for a combo that's not. Golem into Develop? Sounds like a quick way to lose.

Quote
-Sea Hag

This can be helpful, but you need to collide the Sea Hag (or two) with your Develop in a deck likely full of curses. If it is, this is pretty unlikely to be useful. If it's not, then, well, I presume you have trashing, and the value of TFBing the Sea Hag into a \$5+\$3 compared to just trashing it (especially as the trashing you have might be trash for benefit anyway!) is not going to be worth the oppertunity cost of buying the Develop, trying to collide them and being left with the Develop at the end still anyway. I'd probably say this is a very minor improvement over just flat Sea Hags.

Quote
-Cutpurse

Uhh... why?

Quote
-Any other card that loses its value later in the game.

This can certainly make Develop an option in some situations, but most of the time you don't buy enough earlygame cards to make the Develops actually valuable. It might sound like a really good strategy to buy some Trade Posts early, thin your early cards into Silvers then turn the Trade Posts into Golds and some \$4's with Develop later, but you need to actually draw those Trade Posts and Develops together later, which is difficult.

Really, all of those reasons are things that can make Develop not totally ignorable, but you need a good 2-3 of them to even make Develop a noticable improvement over a silver.

Quote
Chancellor is good with Stash. Other than that, it is usually garbage.

Wrong twice. Chancellor is AMAZING with Stash, it's an extremely strong two card combo. It can just e.g. tank past curses from a BM+Witch deck, green early, and pick up Provinces at a very rapid pace. And other than that, it's a terminal Silver with a decent secondary effect. Discarding your deck on average is a fairly good thing until late in the game, it speeds up getting purchaces into your deck and can circumvent a number of deck inspection attacks. It's not great - it's certainly no Swindler, but it's a generally overlooked and often useful terminal Silver. In the absensce of other terminals, I'm certainly picking it up over Fortune Teller and, depending on the other cards, quite often over Navigator and Woodcutter.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: BJ Penn on May 27, 2012, 08:21:34 pm
Another vote for Oracle being ridiculously out of place. I don't have a simulator or anything, but I'd imagine it is similar to courtyard and Smithy in effectiveness in BM games.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: cherdano on May 27, 2012, 08:28:12 pm
I agree that Develop is underrated - it is certainly better than I had thought originally. Basically whenever you are building an engine where you need cards in the range \$4/\$5/\$6 or \$5/\$6/\$7, develops gives you a \$5 value at the cost of two places in your hand and an action, plus topdecking the two new cards - that usually pretty good value.

I also think using it on curses or sea hags etc. can very occasionally be useful - basically when the game is going to be very long, and you have some card draw e.g. via labs, and you want to transition slowly into having a decent hand. Could be a colony game, or a goons game, etc.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: jonts26 on May 27, 2012, 08:28:23 pm
Please don't lump courtyard and smithy together for big money enablers.  Thanks.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: -Stef- on May 27, 2012, 08:50:49 pm
With everyone bashing develop, I feel a certain urge to defend it  ;) I won't say I love it, but I certainly don't ignore it either. It doesn't feel like the lamest \$3 card to me at all.

If it's the only trasher, and I really want to build an engine (and I always do) then develop it will be. If I play with scrying pools, I don't care how bad the trasher is - those coppers and estates just have to go. The engine is almost always worth it.

Another scenario that springs to mind is vineyards; its ok to gain points by putting another 2 actions on my deck.

It feels quite good with IGG. Getting a gold on my deck... yummie. Getting rid of a curse... not that bad. In a straight IGG-rush I probably don't have time to pick up a develop, but in a slightly different game (say IGG + witch) I think I'd go for it at some point.

And of course develop can really shine in end-game shenanigans. If both players have a very strong deck and I want to threaten to end the game on 3 piles, develop is likely to help a lot. Put it on your deck, draw it, use it, repeat...  8)
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: WanderingWinder on May 27, 2012, 11:57:02 pm
I do think develop is being underrated too. I may want it less often than something like chancellor, but when I do want it, it can be really important. Okay, still it's terrible. But not SO bad as people are giving credit...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: chwhite on May 28, 2012, 01:38:44 am
Chancellor is good with Stash. Other than that, it is usually garbage.

You must not be... familiar with opening Chancellor/Potion on certain Curse boards.  8)

...

I think I was one of the first people to rag on Develop when it was new, basically saying that "I'm Level 40 and I think that playing Develop well is above my pay grade, so I avoid it and win.  Maybe when I'm Level 50 I'll have it figured out".  Well, I'm not quite Level 50 but I do think it's a lot better than I originally gave it credit for.  The cute tricks you can do with exploding one good card into two good cards still don't work all that well most of the time... but sometimes they do (IGG, Grand Market for instance), and slow single-card TFB is strong when Curses are around (Hag games especially), or if, say, you're building a cantrip engine in a Colony game.

Now, it's still not good- I continue to buy it less often than Chancellor (which I maintain is slightly underrated), though it's going to be a bigger help when you do buy it (Stash/Familiar/Inn games excepted).  If I was making this list again, I'd have to at least consider kicking Develop up from the basement, and returning to just hatin' on Smugglers instead.

Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 28, 2012, 02:39:29 am
Just want to remind everyone that the voting for these lists were done when Hinterlands hadn't been out for very long, so there are probably a lot of semi-random misrankings of Hinterlands cards. I think if voting were to be done again, Oracle wouldn't be nearly so low, though Develop would still hang around the bottom.

Oracle had a pretty huge variance in rankings. If you look at the extreme votes for Oracle, the top 3 are rank 9-11, which is close to where it should be, imo (I have it at 10), but there are 3 last-place votes. This is likely the result of people not having played with it yet, and arbitrarily putting it last.

Develop, on the other hand, people continue to argue should be last. I personally think Develop should be above Chancellor, because it's more often actually a dominant card. But it still needs a lot of things right about the Kingdom to actually be that good, since it kind of depends on having worthwhile cards at a lot of different price points. So it's hard to rank it too far from the bottom.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Morgrim7 on May 28, 2012, 09:59:36 am
Chancellor is good with Stash. Other than that, it is usually garbage.

You must not be... familiar with opening Chancellor/Potion on certain Curse boards.  8)
??? What does this do? Provide +\$2? Ensure you could play your Familiar more often? Is that not possible with Sea Hag and YW also?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Oh, now I see your point.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Asklepios on May 28, 2012, 11:24:12 am
I'd personally would place Chancellor as the 2nd weakest \$3 card and Develop as the weakest \$3 card. Having said that I think there's plenty of circumstances where I'd buy them - the game design here is good, I think, in that even these "weakest" cards need to be considered when looking over a kingdom. There is NO card in Dominion so weak that you should never buy it, just as there's no card so strong that you should always buy it.

So, for Develop, I think people have already mentioned some nice tricks, along the lines of IGG, Border Village, etc.
More broadly though, I think its worth thinking the following:
- Does it have the potential to create a topdecked pair of cards that will go well together? (like say, Fishing Village / Wharf out of my now redundant Sea Hag, or a Duchy / Great Hall for my Silk Road deck, or more simply, just a Silk Road / Estate, or a pair of action cards from one action card for my Vineyards deck?
- Will adding value to the deck (\$X of cards becomes \$2X of cards) serve me well in helping me win the game? Are there any tricks that will add even more value? (like on gain effects, like Border Village or IGG) Or any ways to strongly utilise that \$ value? (like Apprentice, or Bishop)
- Where are the "stop" points where Develop ceases to give me a +\$1 value card? (for many games, this will be at Gold, with no \$7 card to go to)

For Chancellor, I think the following:
- Are there any other terminals I want more, that Chancellor might clash with?
- Are there any simple combo tricks, like Stash, or any complex tricks, like Golem/Counting House/Chancellor/Worker's Village in a Colony Game?
- Does the fast movement to reshuffle benefit me? (like with Familiar, or with any other action where there's a big advantage to playing it fast and first)

Thats just my thought process with these cards.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Qvist on May 28, 2012, 11:53:26 am
Just want to remind everyone that the voting for these lists were done when Hinterlands hadn't been out for very long, so there are probably a lot of semi-random misrankings of Hinterlands cards. I think if voting were to be done again, Oracle wouldn't be nearly so low, though Develop would still hang around the bottom.

Oracle had a pretty huge variance in rankings. If you look at the extreme votes for Oracle, the top 3 are rank 9-11, which is close to where it should be, imo (I have it at 10), but there are 3 last-place votes. This is likely the result of people not having played with it yet, and arbitrarily putting it last.

Develop, on the other hand, people continue to argue should be last. I personally think Develop should be above Chancellor, because it's more often actually a dominant card. But it still needs a lot of things right about the Kingdom to actually be that good, since it kind of depends on having worthwhile cards at a lot of different price points. So it's hard to rank it too far from the bottom.

Yeah, that's definitely true. Many Hinterlands cards had still high variance and some cards would now be ranked higher and other cards much lower.
These lists were compiled at the end of 2011 and I wanted to start the next list either a few months after Dark Ages or at the end of 2012.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Tables on May 28, 2012, 12:28:31 pm
Personally, I'd be interested in seeing a new list fairly soon: All the cards now out we're familiar with, and with Dark Ages being so big and apparently likely complex, it'd take a while for that to be well understood. I think now might be a good time to see what people think.

Incidentally, have you still got the fun rankings, Qvist?
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: RisingJaguar on May 28, 2012, 01:10:57 pm
I am really disagree with develop and black market!
You need in 90% of games buy black market because they are almost cards like goons, wharf, kc , mountebank.... (for me Black market is in the top 8)
And develop, ok it s often a bad card... but when they are cost 7 cards for example, it become really strong and even without it s not so bad to trash a cost 4 cards for a wharf village(on the deck!)...
And moreover cards like chancellor or fortune teller are so useless, i don t understand how they can be behind develop...

Black Market is so low because
1) It makes games annoying
2) It takes way too long to get the Black Marketed cards when you should be focusing on cards already on the table
3) Certain cards pop up in the Black Market which are useless by themselves, like Treasure Map or Fool's Gold
1) Why is JoaT number 1?  Shouldn't it be last? (I kid but this is not a reason to list a card lower)
2) Right... if you are playing BM.  If you are making a decent engine (but not a superior engine), its not nearly as slow as BM games.
3) Why so negative, there are so many great cards where getting the only one gets a huge competitive advantage.  That's the strength of BM.  Does it provide HUGE variance, yes.  Does that make it bad, no.

BM just wants to be surrounded by +actions so that BM and its terminals from BM can be played.  That's a decent amount of boards where it can shine.  Add on little tricks here and there, its a respectable card.  I'm not as skilled to say it should be played on 90% of boards, but any with a slight resemblance of a mediocre engine available and I'm in.  (This of course also likely means there is no power card available either).
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: chwhite on May 28, 2012, 01:24:33 pm
Chancellor is good with Stash. Other than that, it is usually garbage.

You must not be... familiar with opening Chancellor/Potion on certain Curse boards.  8)
??? What does this do? Provide +\$2? Ensure you could play your Familiar more often? Is that not possible with Sea Hag and YW also?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Oh, now I see your point.

Chancellor is actually one of the very best Silver-equivalents on Familiar boards, since the increased cycling can be really helpful in getting those Curses out quicker, and you're not worried about terminal clashes since Familiar is a cantrip.  Similarly, Chancellor is a good opener for IGG rushes, though the ranks of IGG-helpers are a good deal larger (esp. since they allow for \$4 terminal Silvers).  I'll also open Chancellor in Mountebank games, since the fact that Mountebank doesn't give +Card, and does give Copper, mitigates the possibility of terminal clashes.  But terminal clashes are too likely, and too damaging when they happen, to really use Chancellor in Hag/YW/Witch games.

Familiar is one of the three best cards for Chancellor, along with Stash (obviously) and Inn (play Chancellor, buy Inn, set up great Action chain for next turn no matter how bloated your deck is).  Beyond those three cards it's something to buy and maybe get a little advantage over Silver when either there's a dearth of terminals, or a glut of +Actions.  Yeah, I know it can theoretically be great with Counting House, but good luck actually setting that up.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: O on May 28, 2012, 03:19:45 pm
I think Oracle as P1 probably beats chancellor for familiar games.

Chancellor: Makes a big difference in Stash games, a moderate difference in IGG/Familiar games, a small difference in most other games.

Develop: Hundreds of 3 card combos that we have not yet discovered or posted really. Decent in cursing games without those conditions.

Yea, I'll take develop.

Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: popsofctown on May 28, 2012, 08:10:17 pm
Oracle and Black Market below Loan?  o.0

Loan brings new meaning to failing the Silver test!

I agree with O about Develop.  I ended up in this bizarre game where both players had thick decks and Apothecaries and Developing into Coppersmith+something else was like a really awesome way to guarantee Provinces (maybe it was Colonies) next turn.  I swear it was real.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: dondon151 on May 30, 2012, 02:42:48 pm
Develop: Hundreds of 3 card combos that we have not yet discovered or posted really. Decent in cursing games without those conditions.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the possibility of 3-card combos (most of which aren't really powerful in any way) means that Develop is better. I might as well say that the mere possibility of deck acceleration that Chancellor offers on any kingdom makes it better, but we know that is not true.

There certainly have been games when matching up a Develop with a key card has significantly contributed to my win, but those match-ups were incredibly luck-based to begin with; things like developing my opening \$4 into Oasis/Minion or something like that.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: O on May 30, 2012, 03:59:32 pm
Develop: Hundreds of 3 card combos that we have not yet discovered or posted really. Decent in cursing games without those conditions.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the possibility of 3-card combos (most of which aren't really powerful in any way) means that Develop is better. I might as well say that the mere possibility of deck acceleration that Chancellor offers on any kingdom makes it better, but we know that is not true.

There certainly have been games when matching up a Develop with a key card has significantly contributed to my win, but those match-ups were incredibly luck-based to begin with; things like developing my opening \$4 into Oasis/Minion or something like that.

I don't really understand your post in the slightest. My reasoning was that develop is a game changer on tons of boards, while chancellor is a game changer on... boards with Stash. "Tons of boards" is STILL restricted to 3-card combos that work/are good.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Asklepios on June 01, 2012, 02:55:41 pm
I'd also agree that Develop is underrated, and that it is a better card than Chancellor.

Chancellor does have uses other than linking with Stash, but they're combos for weak boards, generally, or from the fact that its a +\$2 action that costs \$3 (which can be useful on Vineyards or Scrying Pool boards) rather than because its Chancellor.

Develop, on the other hand, is a card that often lets a more skilled player gain the edge over a weaker one. It turns one card into two, with exactly twice the total value. It changes deck composition, so allows you to transition out of early game cards (like moneylender or baron). It topdecks, so it lets you set up one-off combos of cards you might otherwise struggle to draw together (like turning that IGG into a Gold and a Remodel, or into a Border Village and a Salvager).
It rewards clever brinksmanship, as it works mostly in the low to midrange where stuff like duchy, gardens, estate and tunnel sit.
Certainly Develop is not normally a good opener, and its far from being as all-round zippy as Remake or as versatile as Remodel, but the more I play with this card, the more I see its utility. Its subtle, its clever, its hard to use, but its really not a bad card at all, if you use it at the right time and in the right deck. My favourite Develop play at present, I think, is developing a redundant \$4 card into a Develop and a \$5 card.

To me, Develop is undervalued if you try to view it as a card you build a strategy around, or a whole deck around. Where it comes into its own is when you view it as a card that can give a slight edge in other deck types, and to make your complex deck that little bit cleverer than your opponent's complex deck.

Chancellor, in contrast, rarely improves a toolbox deck overall, but rather works well in a few very specific circumstances.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: DStu on June 02, 2012, 01:05:06 pm
Develop: Hundreds of 3 card combos that we have not yet discovered or posted really. Decent in cursing games without those conditions.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the possibility of 3-card combos (most of which aren't really powerful in any way) means that Develop is better. I might as well say that the mere possibility of deck acceleration that Chancellor offers on any kingdom makes it better, but we know that is not true.

First, I think the list was compiled very early in Hinterlands, where most cards just settled, and nobody had begun to get a feeling for the more subtle cards like Develop. I don't think it will make the last place when you would redo the list now.

For the 3 card combos: I know that a 3 card combo is usually something you don't need to think of before, just because you won't see it often. But Develop by design needs 3 card combos if you want to describe a combo. And there are some really generic combos, which don't need Develop and 2 exact other cards, but more type of cards. I've written this in the Develop-thread, but again: If you want to build an engine, and the engine components happen to be \$2 appart, Develop has good chances to be a great card. Not just a card that gives a little support, but the one the helps you building your engine faster and make it more reliable. And there are lots of these setups: \$3Village+\$5drawer, Border Village+\$4drawer (with free \$5 to Develop), Festival-Watchtower. KC+\$5!, \$4Village+Nobles.. You usually need some more support (+buy, or at least gain), but every engine needs this. And an engine has no problem to draw Develop and its target in one hand, especially if it's kickstarted from last turns Develop. And an engine might even draw the Develop cards this turn, if it wants to.
And that's just the engines, there are some more subtle tricks, but this is already such a large chunk where Develop gets really really really strong. Compared to say Oasis, which usually is not much worse than a Silver, but also never is much stronger than a Silver. Or said Chancellor. They might usually be better than Develop, but you might ignore them in most cases anyway, if they are 95% of a Silver or 20% like Develop in most games. But Develop has this games where it is really influencial, where it does things which you can't even compare to what a Silver would do...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): \$3 cards
Post by: Qvist on June 03, 2012, 07:57:11 am
Personally, I'd be interested in seeing a new list fairly soon: All the cards now out we're familiar with, and with Dark Ages being so big and apparently likely complex, it'd take a while for that to be well understood. I think now might be a good time to see what people think.

Incidentally, have you still got the fun rankings, Qvist?