Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Roadrunner7671 on December 14, 2015, 11:07:34 pm
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Scout. The one card the community can't seem to stop talking about. I am making this poll not only because I want to get a good idea of what people think about Scout, but also because I want to see if polls are as easy to make as they appear to be. I also sort of want to find the line: when will I be shunned by the community because I have seen the way? Maybe a poll is going to far, maybe it isn't. But we'll see if people answer!
EDIT: There's no way to tell who said what, is there? For example, something that Iguanaiguana says, or Adam says, or Voltaire says, or like shark bait or Liopoli says, I would listen to that more than like, a guest (no offense to any guests).
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Either Masquerade or Ambassador, because you can use them to pass Scouts to your opponent.
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Either Masquerade or Ambassador, because you can use them to pass Scouts to your opponent.
But the question is: which one is better?
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Scout. The one card
the community Roadrunner can't seem to stop talking about.
Inheritance should be on the list. It's the one thing that might make me likely to buy a Scout.
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Scout. The one card the community Roadrunner can't seem to stop talking about.
Inheritance should be on the list. It's the one thing that might make me likely to buy a Scout.
Oh man! How did I forget Inheritance??!!
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Remind me how storeroom works with scout? I mean, I just don't see that. Like, at all. All the other cards combo with scout well enough. I mean, being that "combo with scout" is a very bold statement.
edit: oh, and warehouse too. I don't think those two should even be options here.
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Remind me how storeroom works with scout? I mean, I just don't see that. Like, at all. All the other cards combo with scout well enough. I mean, being that "combo with scout" is a very bold statement.
edit: oh, and warehouse too. I don't think those two should even be options here.
You're probably right, even I will admit this is pretty weak. In theory, you increase your handsize by drawing Victory cards, which helps discard for benefit. You can also organize the cards that you want to draw with Warehouse but particularly Storeroom.
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EDIT: There's no way to tell who said what, is there? For example, something that Iguanaiguana says, or Adam says, or Voltaire says, or like shark bait or Liopoli says, I would listen to that more than like, a guest (no offense to any guests).
You have to set it up as not private when you set up the poll. I'm not sure if you can change it or not at this point.
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EDIT: There's no way to tell who said what, is there? For example, something that Iguanaiguana says, or Adam says, or Voltaire says, or like shark bait or Liopoli says, I would listen to that more than like, a guest (no offense to any guests).
You have to set it up as not private when you set up the poll. I'm not sure if you can change it or not at this point.
Oops. No biggs.
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You're probably right, even I will admit this is pretty weak. In theory, you increase your handsize by drawing Victory cards, which helps discard for benefit. You can also organize the cards that you want to draw with Warehouse but particularly Storeroom.
Scout decreases your hand size.
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Scout. The one card the community can't seem to stop talking about.
if by "the community" you mean "you"
can we please talk about anything else
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Apothecary/Scout is a nice combo in engines without (good) trashing. I remember seeing this game which was really awesome:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYliQFwLoUc
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Either Masquerade or Ambassador, because you can use them to pass Scouts to your opponent.
But the question is: which one is better?
Ambassador, you don't need to buy Scout repeatedly and can't get it back on your own Masquerade play. Never did that, though.
I used Scout as a stepping stone for Upgrade on a Scrying Pool board recently without any other (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)-cost (except for Potion).
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Scout. The one card the community can't seem to stop talking about.
if by "the community" you mean "you"
can we please talk about anything else
Well, what would you like to talk about?
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Just commented, "a card name, don't be a troll" ;)
But for real, probably Apothecary. Mostly because VP makes Apothecary stall hard. A single Scout in an Apothecary deck can go a long ways. There is also the lack of opportunity cost. Most other cards you will almost always say, "should have been another X" in regards to grabbing Scout. But with Apothecary the Potion cost makes it possible to actually pick up Scout and not miss out on an Apothecary purchase.
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Just commented, "a card name, don't be a troll" ;)
But for real, probably Apothecary. Mostly because VP makes Apothecary stall hard. A single Scout in an Apothecary deck can go a long ways.
😑
EDIT: I wonder how many other people did that...
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Feast.
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Feast.
Play Feast to gain a Scout? I love it!!
I've said it once and I'll say it again.. I think Scout-Ironworks-Great Hall is a thing. I know, 3-card combos are shunned round these parts. But they're all from Intrigue. So if that's what you're playing with, it's worth at least keeping an eye out for. Especially if your opponent is not contesting the Great Halls with you.
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It's probably best to buy cards that do their job well right away instead of trying to make Scout work.
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Feast.
Play Feast to gain a Scout? I love it!!
I've said it once and I'll say it again.. I think Scout-Ironworks-Great Hall is a thing. I know, 3-card combos are shunned round these parts. But they're all from Intrigue. So if that's what you're playing with, it's worth at least keeping an eye out for. Especially if your opponent is not contesting the Great Halls with you.
I think simulator results have shown it's a thing. Anyway, there's at least one Intrigue campaign level in the first set that has the those 3 cards (plus Nobles and Harem). I don't remember which one it is, but you can have some fun there.
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Stop trying to make Scout happen.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Pubd-spHN-0/hqdefault.jpg)
It's not going to happen.
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I voted for Apothecary, but could also go with Wishing Well.
The beauty here of course is that you'd rather have Apothecary/Wishing Well than Apothecary/Scout or Wishing Well/Scout.
Scout is essentially the third wheel on that wagon.
It's just very very harsh that Scout doesn't simply have a +1 Card by default (you know, like Apothecary does) and that's just what kills it and makes it a handsize decreaser most of the time. If you'd make Scout similar to Apothecary but for VP cards instead of Coppers, it would read:
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand. Put the other cards back on top of your deck in any order.
Now there's a card I would actually voluntarily get for $4.
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I voted for Apothecary, but could also go with Wishing Well.
Scout/Wishing Well is worse than just Wishing Well.
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Well, it's really marginal, I'll give you that.
Best case is you have 2 WW's in hand, reveal no Victory cards and get 2 perfect guesses.
The WW-density does decrease a smidge, but I'm pretty sure it must be helpful later in the game.
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Best case is you have 2 WW's in hand, reveal no Victory cards and get 2 perfect guesses.
Yeah, that's still worse than nothing.
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Best case is you have 2 WW's in hand, reveal no Victory cards and get 2 perfect guesses.
Yeah, that's still worse than nothing.
No - with scout you end up with a hand size of 6, without it you probably end up with a hand size of 5. A hand size of 6 is better than a hand size of 5. There is the downside that you have a scout in your deck, but that shouldn't be counted because if you can engineer this situation reliably it isn't a downside.
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Best case is you have 2 WW's in hand, reveal no Victory cards and get 2 perfect guesses.
Yeah, that's still worse than nothing.
No - with scout you end up with a hand size of 6, without it you probably end up with a hand size of 5.
Imagine if the scout was another Wishing Well. With just one correct guess in 3 attempts you're as well off as you were with Scout.
Scout. The one card the community can't seem to stop talking about.
if by "the community" you mean "you"
can we please talk about anything else
Well, what would you like to talk about?
Can we talk about individual Adventures cards, like Gear and Artificer? Kind of surprised how little discussion has happened on here considering the game came out six months ago. I'll have to make some threads.
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Best case is you have 2 WW's in hand, reveal no Victory cards and get 2 perfect guesses.
Yeah, that's still worse than nothing.
No - with scout you end up with a hand size of 6, without it you probably end up with a hand size of 5. A hand size of 6 is better than a hand size of 5. There is the downside that you have a scout in your deck, but that shouldn't be counted because if you can engineer this situation reliably it isn't a downside.
Yeah, but it all feels like building an engine of only Nobles. After all toil and sweat, you're just one Lab ahead.
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Best case is you have 2 WW's in hand, reveal no Victory cards and get 2 perfect guesses.
Yeah, that's still worse than nothing.
No - with scout you end up with a hand size of 6, without it you probably end up with a hand size of 5.
Imagine if the scout was another Wishing Well. With just one correct guess in 3 attempts you're as well off as you were with Scout.
This is the key. Scout might provide some marginal benefit, but something else is probably better. Another Wishing Well is going to be pretty evenly matched in this scenario, and is just way better when you get it in hand without less than two more Wishing Wells.
Like, maybe if you already have the entire stack of Wishing Wells in your deck there could be a situation where gaining a Scout is the right call, but if the Wells aren't empty yet, you definitely want one of those instead.
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No - with scout you end up with a hand size of 6, without it you probably end up with a hand size of 5. A hand size of 6 is better than a hand size of 5. There is the downside that you have a scout in your deck, but that shouldn't be counted because if you can engineer this situation reliably it isn't a downside.
No - without Scout, you should probably end up with a hand size of 6 and have at least a reasonable chance of getting a hand size of 7. A hand size of 7 is better than a hand size of 6.
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No - with scout you end up with a hand size of 6, without it you probably end up with a hand size of 5. A hand size of 6 is better than a hand size of 5. There is the downside that you have a scout in your deck, but that shouldn't be counted because if you can engineer this situation reliably it isn't a downside.
No - without Scout, you should probably end up with a hand size of 6 and have at least a reasonable chance of getting a hand size of 7. A hand size of 7 is better than a hand size of 6.
Even the best players don't have a greater than 50% chance of guessing correctly.
I do admit that having 3 wishing wells is better than 2 and a scout though, but that's scout<wishing well, not scout<0.
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Even the best players don't have a greater than 50% chance of guessing correctly.
I'm pretty sure they do have a greater than 50% chance of guessing correctly at least once out of two tries.
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Even the best players don't have a greater than 50% chance of guessing correctly.
I'm pretty sure they do have a greater than 50% chance of guessing correctly at least once out of two tries.
And if not due to deck diversity or whatnot, then you know maybe getting multiple Wishing Wells was a mistake.
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A hand size of 7 is better than a hand size of 6.
(http://2.1m.yt/413h4Ha.png)
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And then you play a wishing well wishing for wishing wells and reveal an overexcited guy saying "hi thank you so much for buying me I work really well with wishing wells haha just draw me with a couple of those and I can guarantee they hit I promise I'll be useful it's not true I suck I just need support just ask all my fans!"
When you turn in that direction you see Roadrunner and his captivating if a bit maniacal smile, seemely unaware of the fact that he's standing alone in the middle of a host of empty chairs. He's holding a handwritten sign drawn on the backside of a pink take-away menu, it says "the Scout Boys".
And you'll just be sad.
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When you turn in that direction you see Roadrunner and his captivating if a bit maniacal smile, seemely unaware of the fact that he's standing alone in the middle of a host of empty chairs. He's holding a handwritten sign drawn on the backside of a pink take-away menu, it says "the Scout Boys".
And you'll just be sad.
This changed me. Maybe it should be my signature.
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Even the best players don't have a greater than 50% chance of guessing correctly.
I'm pretty sure they do have a greater than 50% chance of guessing correctly at least once out of two tries.
So? If the chance is 40% for each guess (which would be 64% chance they'd guess correctly at least once), then the expected value using scout is +1, and the expected value without scout is +.8.
There's other differences, but just using the naive math makes scout slightly better than nothing.
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Even the best players don't have a greater than 50% chance of guessing correctly.
I'm pretty sure they do have a greater than 50% chance of guessing correctly at least once out of two tries.
So? If the chance is 40% for each guess (which would be 64% chance they'd guess correctly at least once), then the expected value using scout is +1, and the expected value without scout is +.8.
There's other differences, but just using the naive math makes scout slightly better than nothing.
Are you factoring in that, if you had nothing instead of Scout, you would start off with 1 extra card in hand already?
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Yes. The +1 or +.8 is how many non-WW/scout cards you end up with minus 5.
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It's probably best to buy cards that do their job well right away instead of trying to make Scout work.
I needed to find this quote as I thought of a great comeback.
It's best to buy other cards instead of King's Court. After all, you need more action cards to make King's Court work, so why bother?
8)
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It's best to buy other cards instead of King's Court. After all, you need more action cards to make King's Court work, so why bother?
8)
Well, you don't want King's Court before you have other Actions for precisely that reason (although sometimes you're presented with an unplanned opportunity and sometimes taking it is pretty good). The difference is that when you have the other Actions (almost any Actions will do, too), KC is very likely the strongest card you could possibly buy, while Scout with the absolute best possible support still struggles with being better than simply not buying anything.
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It's best to buy other cards instead of King's Court. After all, you need more action cards to make King's Court work, so why bother?
8)
Well, you don't want King's Court before you have other Actions for precisely that reason (although sometimes you're presented with an unplanned opportunity and sometimes taking it is pretty good). The difference is that when you have the other Actions (almost any Actions will do, too), KC is very likely the strongest card you could possibly buy, while Scout with the absolute best possible support still struggles with being better than simply not buying anything.
Buy KC-Scout will look at the top 4 cards in your deck, and put them back in any order 3 times! Unless, of course, you have Victory cards in those top four.
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I bought Scout today. After buying Pirate Ship.
Revolutionizing.
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I bought Scout today. After buying Pirate Ship.
Revolutionizing.
Did it work out well? We want details!
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It's best to buy other cards instead of King's Court. After all, you need more action cards to make King's Court work, so why bother?
8)
Well, you don't want King's Court before you have other Actions for precisely that reason (although sometimes you're presented with an unplanned opportunity and sometimes taking it is pretty good). The difference is that when you have the other Actions (almost any Actions will do, too), KC is very likely the strongest card you could possibly buy, while Scout with the absolute best possible support still struggles with being better than simply not buying anything.
The same with Scout. Buying Scout before you have support is bad. However, you usually start with three Estates, so Scout already has minor support. Open Scout/Great Hall and you're ready to rumble!
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Is Silver not available?
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The same with Scout. Buying Scout before you have support is bad. However, buying Scout after you have support is also bad.
FTFY.
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The same with Scout. Buying Scout before you have support is pretty good. However, buying Scout after you have support is even bettet!
Neat-o, Roadrunner! I never saw it that way! You were right, as always, and I was wrong. But we can all be right jolly about this and sing a song about Scout!
Fixed.
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But we can all be right jolly about this and sing a song about Scout!
Scout. Scout. Let it all out. These are the things I can do without.
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My answer is NONE. There is no "best combo" with scout. At least not with a single card.
Scout needs to combo with no less than 3 other cards on the board to be even worth acquiring. This is the problem with scout.
There are players who will tell you that you should never buy scout. They are wrong.
But the occasions where buying scout is actually a good idea is rare, and even then, the scout is a secondary part of strategy, often to be added later into the mix
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My answer is NONE. There is no "best combo" with scout. At least not with a single card.
Scout needs to combo with no less than 3 other cards on the board to be even worth acquiring. This is the problem with scout.
There are players who will tell you that you should never buy scout. They are wrong.
But the occasions where buying scout is actually a good idea is rare, and even then, the scout is a secondary part of strategy, often to be added later into the mix
Well, I'd have to respectfully disagree with you there, but it appears over 60 people agree with me, as they did this poll without saying what you said. Although it is possible that you're onto something, it's also possible that you just haven't played enough boards with Scout.
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My point is rhetorical as well as pragmatic
What I mean is, in practice it doesn't matter which card is the "best" combo with scout, since in practice it should never be acquired unless there are 3 other cards available that combo with it.
And no, I don't have much experience with scout, since it is not wise to acquire it in most cases, although I would be the first to argue that in some cases you can win games because of it if the prerequisites I have specified are present.
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What I mean is, in practice it doesn't matter which card is the "best" combo with scout, since in practice it should never be acquired unless there are 3 other cards available that combo with it.
It doesn't matter how many cards that "combo" with it there are. No interaction alone is enough to make Scout better than nothing outside of extremely fortunate draws that never actually happen in practice, and it doesn't get better than nothing just because you have multiple of those interactions available. You might want to acquire it because it's an Action card (on a Vineyard board), because it's named Scout (on a Fairgrounds board) or because it costs $4 (on an Upgrade variant board) though.
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What I mean is, in practice it doesn't matter which card is the "best" combo with scout, since in practice it should never be acquired unless there are 3 other cards available that combo with it.
It doesn't matter how many cards that "combo" with it there are. No interaction alone is enough to make Scout better than nothing outside of extremely fortunate draws that never actually happen in practice, and it doesn't get better than nothing just because you have multiple of those interactions available. You might want to acquire it because it's an Action card (on a Vineyard board), because it's named Scout (on a Fairgrounds board) or because it costs $4 (on an Upgrade variant board) though.
I meant don't get it unless you have already made an engine that has a good amount of at least 3 of the cards that are in the poll of this thread. And even in that special case I wouldn't go out of my way to get scout, I would only get it if I had workshop / ironworks etc in my hand, unless, like you said, there was vineyards.
What i am trying to say is, if you already have a strong engine with a healthy number of cards of multiple types, all of which synergize with scout, is it worth acquiring to add an extra oomph to your already strong engine using cards such as nobles / highway, apothecary, etc.? Absolutely it is, if it's convenient to do so and as long as you are not doing so at the expense of acquiring other more useful cards.
I have definitely made crossroads / apothecary driven engines that benefited from the addition of scout IN THE LATER PART OF THE GAME.. Such games are rare but they exist
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The good thing about "best" is that it can also mean "least bad".