Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Game Reports => Topic started by: 2.71828..... on December 13, 2015, 05:18:42 pm

Title: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: 2.71828..... on December 13, 2015, 05:18:42 pm
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/fd/Island.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Island) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/4/46/Scout.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Scout) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/f7/Bazaar.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Bazaar) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/3/37/Mystic.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Mystic) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/0/00/Tribute.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Tribute)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/6/67/Native_Village.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Native Village) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/0/0e/Masquerade.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Masquerade) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/22/Alchemist.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Alchemist) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/4/42/Conspirator.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Conspirator) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/9/93/Ironmonger.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Ironmonger)
Code: [Select]
Native Village, Masquerade, Alchemist, Conspirator, Ironmonger, Island, Scout, Bazaar, Mystic, Tribute
Some great cards on this board.  Alchemist, Masquerade, Ironmonger, Conspirator, Scout.  Err....not Scout.  Anyway, what is the best strategy here?  When Adam does his videos he always goes through and talks about all the various aspects of the game.  You know, actions, draw, trashing, buys.  This board has great actions, great draw, great trashing, but no buys. 

So what does this mean?  It means you have to start greening at a point where you can consistently get provinces and you don't stall out.  Consistency is key.  So you go for Alchemist because you can draw your deck consistently, right?  Wrong.  I mean, it is usually right, and it is the gut instinct to do that, but look at what else you have.  Masquerade.  Bazaar.  Ironmonger.  Without that plus buy, taking the extra time to buy the potion just delays you too much.  Also, potions and alchemists don't give you any economy. 

That is exactly what played out in the game I just played.  My opponent went for alchemist almost automatically.  He began to build his deck and even got the first province before I did (probably because he saw what was coming).  But his deck lacked economy.  He was able to get 3 alchemists before greening, but only had coppers and didn't have the buying power necessary.  My deck had two golds, two masquerades, 2 bazaars, and an ironmonger.  Not the incredible engine, but enough to consistently (ok, I had to buy one island on T12) buy provinces to finish the game piling provinces on T13.

game log (http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20151213/log.0.1450044075014.txt)
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: Titandrake on December 13, 2015, 05:27:41 pm
I'm definitely guilty of going for Alchemist almost automatically. I used to see it as very strong, then as a trap card because it takes a while to build to critical mass, then back around to very strong because a Lab you can sometimes topdeck is still really good.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about early Island here? On $5 Bazaar is probably better, so you never have a good turn for it, but it feels like picking up an Island early could be good here. It's not a Silver or Ironmonger, but it is pseudo-trashing that's worth points, and Ironmonger revealing Island can make it hurt less. (I like 1 early Island on money-ish boards, but I'm not sure if this is actually good play or not. It's hard to see how much that Island helps.)

The only part that gives me pause is Masquerade, with Masq trashing it may not be worth the detour.
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: DG on December 13, 2015, 05:47:05 pm
Quote from: Titandrake on December 13, 2015, 05:27:41 pm
The only part that gives me pause is Masquerade, with Masq trashing it may not be worth the detour.

Exactly.
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: liopoil on December 13, 2015, 10:31:49 pm
Masquerade is also a nice soft-counter to Alchemist in general. If they are topdecking 3+ of them a turn, eventually they will have to pass you one.
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: Roadrunner7671 on December 13, 2015, 11:48:18 pm
WTF!!! 'Erm...not Scout?' You can use Scout to draw Islands, and there is SCOUT MYSTIC! THAT'S THE SECOND STRONGEST COMBO IN DOMINION. I know 2.7 is supposed to be really good at Dominion, but I feel like he really misplayed this board.
You can also use Scout to reorganize your cards to decide what Ironmonger hits! This is some real bull! 10/10 would not read again. Now I feel like I have to take action. It's time for a movement. People are auto-ignoring Scout? This is crazy. Who does that??

And, if you really don't like Scout here, buy it to pass to your opponent. They'll be forced to resign. I think saying things like this is why I get put on people's 'ignore' list.

Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: 2.71828..... on December 14, 2015, 12:16:30 am
Quote from: Roadrunner7671 on December 13, 2015, 11:48:18 pm
WTF!!! 'Erm...not Scout?'

1) "Err..." not "Erm...."
2) yes, I added that bit for your benefit
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: Davio on December 14, 2015, 03:07:02 am
My gut instinct is never Alchemist, I generally only like it with +Buy or in slogs.

Here my gut instinct would be Masquerade, Ironmonger, Conspirator.
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: Awaclus on December 14, 2015, 05:03:50 am
Quote from: Roadrunner7671 on December 13, 2015, 11:48:18 pm
SCOUT MYSTIC! THAT'S THE SECOND STRONGEST COMBO IN DOMINION.

Oh yeah, if you have 4 Mystics in your hand, Scout is very slightly better than nothing. With 3 Mystics, it's roughly as good as nothing. With less than 3 Mystics, it's worse than nothing. A great combo indeed.
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: iguanaiguana on December 14, 2015, 09:35:46 am
Quote from: Awaclus on December 14, 2015, 05:03:50 am
Quote from: Roadrunner7671 on December 13, 2015, 11:48:18 pm
SCOUT MYSTIC! THAT'S THE SECOND STRONGEST COMBO IN DOMINION.

Oh yeah, if you have 4 Mystics in your hand, Scout is very slightly better than nothing. With 3 Mystics, it's roughly as good as nothing. With less than 3 Mystics, it's worse than nothing. A great combo indeed.

Let's not have this conversation for a third time in as many months.
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: Roadrunner7671 on December 14, 2015, 11:55:35 am
Quote from: iguanaiguana on December 14, 2015, 09:35:46 am
Quote from: Awaclus on December 14, 2015, 05:03:50 am
Quote from: Roadrunner7671 on December 13, 2015, 11:48:18 pm
SCOUT MYSTIC! THAT'S THE SECOND STRONGEST COMBO IN DOMINION.

Oh yeah, if you have 4 Mystics in your hand, Scout is very slightly better than nothing. With 3 Mystics, it's roughly as good as nothing. With less than 3 Mystics, it's worse than nothing. A great combo indeed.

Let's not have this conversation for a third time in as many months.
We can do this again. I'm okay with that.
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: Kirian on December 14, 2015, 12:25:56 pm
Quote from: Davio on December 14, 2015, 03:07:02 am
My gut instinct is never Alchemist, I generally only like it with +Buy or in slogs.

Here my gut instinct would be Masquerade, Ironmonger, Conspirator.

Right.  Without +Buy, Alchemist is a bit of a dud.  Once you have a couple, you end up spending $6P buying more, and then you're still only buying one card per turn later.
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: Dingan on December 14, 2015, 02:17:10 pm
Alchemist, Scrying Pool, Herald, and Fool's Gold (and there's probably more that I'm forgetting) are cards that I used to instantly think "OMG HOW CAN I GRAB AS MANY OF THOSE AS POSSIBLE??"  But I've since trained myself to take a step back and ask if that's really right or not.  In the case of this board, I definitely think Alchemist is wrong.  I see Masq / BM.  Bazaar on 5, maybe, so that you could potentially play 2 Masqs per turn.  But in all honesty, it's probably just Masq, Golds, Silvers, and maybe an Island or 2 throughout the course of the game (similar to what you did).
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: markusin on December 14, 2015, 02:24:53 pm
Quote from: Roadrunner7671 on December 14, 2015, 11:55:35 am
Quote from: iguanaiguana on December 14, 2015, 09:35:46 am
Quote from: Awaclus on December 14, 2015, 05:03:50 am
Quote from: Roadrunner7671 on December 13, 2015, 11:48:18 pm
SCOUT MYSTIC! THAT'S THE SECOND STRONGEST COMBO IN DOMINION.

Oh yeah, if you have 4 Mystics in your hand, Scout is very slightly better than nothing. With 3 Mystics, it's roughly as good as nothing. With less than 3 Mystics, it's worse than nothing. A great combo indeed.

Let's not have this conversation for a third time in as many months.
We can do this again. I'm okay with that.

Scout + Mystic can be quite fine depending on the board, but without +buy it just looks too slow here. At best you can only buy one Province a turn, and Masquerade-centric strategies are just going to outrace Scout + Mystic, similar to how it Outraces Alchemist here.
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: faust on December 14, 2015, 07:14:00 pm
Quote from: Awaclus on December 14, 2015, 05:03:50 am
Quote from: Roadrunner7671 on December 13, 2015, 11:48:18 pm
SCOUT MYSTIC! THAT'S THE SECOND STRONGEST COMBO IN DOMINION.

Oh yeah, if you have 4 Mystics in your hand, Scout is very slightly better than nothing. With 3 Mystics, it's roughly as good as nothing. With less than 3 Mystics, it's worse than nothing. A great combo indeed.

While this is misrepresenting the power of Scout/Mystic (it's not great, but it can work), Ironmonger definitely beats the hell out of Scout as a Mystic enabler here. And Conspirator>Mystic for the most part. Though all that cutesy stuff will not do much here without +buy.
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: Roadrunner7671 on December 14, 2015, 07:22:58 pm
Is there some AI machine that tells you how many Provinces you can get in how many turns for different things? Like Thief BM vs. Moat BM?
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: liopoil on December 14, 2015, 09:04:06 pm
Quote from: Dingan on December 14, 2015, 02:17:10 pm
Alchemist, Scrying Pool, Herald, and Fool's Gold (and there's probably more that I'm forgetting) are cards that I used to instantly think "OMG HOW CAN I GRAB AS MANY OF THOSE AS POSSIBLE??"  But I've since trained myself to take a step back and ask if that's really right or not.
Your attitude was pretty much right for Scrying Pool.
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: enfynet on December 15, 2015, 01:40:31 am
Quote from: Roadrunner7671 on December 14, 2015, 11:55:35 am
Quote from: iguanaiguana on December 14, 2015, 09:35:46 am
Quote from: Awaclus on December 14, 2015, 05:03:50 am
Quote from: Roadrunner7671 on December 13, 2015, 11:48:18 pm
SCOUT MYSTIC! THAT'S THE SECOND STRONGEST COMBO IN DOMINION.

Oh yeah, if you have 4 Mystics in your hand, Scout is very slightly better than nothing. With 3 Mystics, it's roughly as good as nothing. With less than 3 Mystics, it's worse than nothing. A great combo indeed.

Let's not have this conversation for a third time in as many months.
We can do this again. I'm okay with that.
To be fair, I have been pretty busy since June so I missed all that...

Also, looking at this board, I would be tempted to use Masquerade and Tribute to mess with my opponent.
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: Awaclus on December 15, 2015, 08:33:15 am
Quote from: faust on December 14, 2015, 07:14:00 pm
While this is misrepresenting the power of Scout/Mystic (it's not great, but it can work), Ironmonger definitely beats the hell out of Scout as a Mystic enabler here. And Conspirator>Mystic for the most part. Though all that cutesy stuff will not do much here without +buy.

Well, sure, it can work if your Scout enables 4 Mystics every time you play it. Otherwise it really doesn't work.
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: Davio on December 15, 2015, 09:48:00 am
Your Scout can also reveal 4 Mystics with none in your hand.  ::)
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: markusin on December 15, 2015, 10:15:46 am
Quote from: Davio on December 15, 2015, 09:48:00 am
Your Scout can also reveal 4 Mystics with none in your hand.  ::)

But if it does that when you have just one Mystic in hand then boom, that's +$10 right there.
Title: Re: Alchemist Distraction
Post by: Infthitbox on December 15, 2015, 10:38:21 am
Quote from: 2.71828..... on December 13, 2015, 05:18:42 pm

That is exactly what played out in the game I just played.  My opponent went for alchemist almost automatically.  He began to build his deck and even got the first province before I did (probably because he saw what was coming).  But his deck lacked economy.  He was able to get 3 alchemists before greening, but only had coppers and didn't have the buying power necessary.  My deck had two golds, two masquerades, 2 bazaars, and an ironmonger.  Not the incredible engine, but enough to consistently (ok, I had to buy one island on T12) buy provinces to finish the game piling provinces on T13.

I'm curious as to how this game might play out if your opponent doesn't trash those coppers on his turns 8,9,10. He (wlog?) had the economy to buy provinces, and then deliberately loses the ability to do that by trashing the coppers. Admittedly, he would need to be very fortunate to continue to draw his deck once he started greening, but to start greening, and then remove his own ability to do so, is quite bizarre. If he had picked up an Island with the plan of opportunistically getting those Provinces out of his deck while keeping his economy intact, he might have had more of a chance.