Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Qvist on November 26, 2015, 10:35:24 am

Title: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: Qvist on November 26, 2015, 10:35:24 am
The Best Knights

64 votes on this list

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/dd/Dame_Josephine.jpg/200px-Dame_Josephine.jpg)#10 =0 Dame Josephine Weighted Average: 3.7% ▼8.3pp / Unweighted Average: 6.1% / Median: 0% ▼11.1pp / Standard Deviation: 15.6%

Dame Josephine aka the VP Knight is the worst knight again. It is even clearer than before as she lost over 8pp and has a huge difference to #9. She has the third lowest deviation in this list. She was voted last 49 times, that's more than 3/4 of the votes. She was voted twice above average.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/ab/Sir_Martin.jpg/200px-Sir_Martin.jpg)#9 =0 Sir Martin Weighted Average: 21.2% ▲1.2pp / Unweighted Average: 22.4% / Median: 22.2% ▲11.1pp / Standard Deviation: 14.1%

Sir Martin aka the +Buy Knight stayed also where he was. He has the second lowest deviation in this list. He was voted last 7 times and 3 times above average.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/30/Sir_Vander.jpg/200px-Sir_Vander.jpg)#8 =0 Sir Vander Weighted Average: 23.6% ▲2.4pp / Unweighted Average: 23.3% / Median: 22.2% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 19.3%

Sir Vander aka the On-Trash Gold-gain Knight stayed also on the same rank and is slightly better than before and than Sir Martin. He has the third highest deviation in this list. He was voted last 7 times as well and 7 times above average, once on the first rank.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/85/Dame_Natalie.jpg/200px-Dame_Natalie.jpg)#7 =0 Dame Natalie Weighted Average: 39.0% ▲4.9pp / Unweighted Average: 34.0% / Median: 22.2% ▼11.1pp / Standard Deviation: 21.1%

Dame Natalie aka the Gainer Knight stayed also where she was - she is nearly 5pp better though. She has the highest deviation in this list. She was voted last once and 5 times above 70%.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c3/Dame_Sylvia.jpg/200px-Dame_Sylvia.jpg)#6 =0 Dame Sylvia Weighted Average: 46.3% ▼4.7pp / Unweighted Average: 47.9% / Median: 55.6% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 19.0%

Dame Sylvia aka the terminal Silver Knight is the next knight which stayed on the same rank, but she lost nearly 5pp. She was voted first once and 5 times above 70%.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/18/Sir_Destry.jpg/200px-Sir_Destry.jpg)#5 =0 Sir Destry Weighted Average: 55.1% ▼4.5pp / Unweighted Average: 54.2% / Median: 55.6% ▼11.1pp / Standard Deviation: 16.8%

Sir Destry aka the Draw Knight stayed where he was as well, but he lost also nearly 5pp. He was voted first once and 3 times below 30%.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/10/Dame_Molly.jpg/200px-Dame_Molly.jpg)#4 =0 Dame Molly Weighted Average: 66.8% ▲2.1pp / Unweighted Average: 66.5% / Median: 66.7% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 17.7%

Dame Molly aka the village Knight stayed where she was before, but has a slightly better average value. She was voted first 3 times and 14 times below average.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/21/Sir_Michael.jpg/200px-Sir_Michael.jpg)#3 ▼2 Sir Michael Weighted Average: 78.6% ▼5.5pp / Unweighted Average: 82.6% / Median: 88.9% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 20.8%

Sir Michael aka the discarding Knight isn't the best knight anymore. He lost 2 ranks and is over 5pp worse. He would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. He has the second highest deviation in this list. He was voted first 25 times and 8 times below average.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/a6/Sir_Bailey.jpg/200px-Sir_Bailey.jpg)#2 =0 Sir Bailey Weighted Average: 79.1% ▼0.8pp / Unweighted Average: 78.7% / Median: 77.8% ▼11.1pp / Standard Deviation: 13.8%

Sir Bailey aka the Cantrip Knight changed the least of all knights; he's on the same rank and has basically the same average value. He is only slightly ahead of Sir Michael, only 0.46pp. He would be one rank lower in the unweighted list. He has the lowest deviation in this list. He was voted first 5 times and 4 times below average.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/ad/Dame_Anna.jpg/200px-Dame_Anna.jpg)#1 ▲2 Dame Anna Weighted Average: 86.7% ▲13.3pp / Unweighted Average: 84.4% / Median: 88.9% ▲11.1pp / Standard Deviation: 18.0%

Dame Anna aka the Trasher Knight made the biggest jump. She is the new #1 being 2 ranks higher and over 13pp better. She was voted first 28 times and 4 times below average.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: werothegreat on November 26, 2015, 10:43:02 am
Man, people really like trashing now.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: nate_w on November 26, 2015, 12:17:24 pm
Quote from: werothegreat on November 26, 2015, 10:43:02 am
Man, people really like trashing now.

I'm pretty sure there are a ton of boards where there is no other trashing and the person who gets dame Anna often just wins.

Also, in a knights battle, she usually trashes 2-6 cards for you and then gets removed from your deck around the time you aren't excited to have her anymore.

The only one I would disagree by more than a few spots with here is Natalie. There are a significant number of boards where I want her much more than some of the others. Of course sometimes she is trash.

Also who are these people who don't like Michael? He's pretty good!
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: jsh357 on November 26, 2015, 12:28:09 pm
I don't care for Sir Michael. The handsize attack is often more irrelevant than it looks. (you normally have junk sitting around in Knights game for one reason or another) I think it's as good as Vander/Natalie/Martin. Honestly, most of the Knights are pretty close anyway. The most important part of them is the trashing attack, and Anna's effect is a big outlier.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: ehunt on November 26, 2015, 12:52:30 pm
Here's a question. I think most people believe:

- the price jump from 4 to 5 is especially significant in Dominion, and most 5s are substantially better than most 4s
- Knights are pretty good for a 5
- Sir Martin is not a very good Knight.

I know I believe all three of these things. Now these three points seem to be a little contradictory. Sir Martin is a good 5, for the price of 4. Isn't that really good? How would you rank a pile of 10 Sir Martins against the other 4s?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: Infthitbox on November 26, 2015, 12:58:57 pm
Quote from: ehunt on November 26, 2015, 12:52:30 pm
Here's a question. I think most people believe:

- the price jump from 4 to 5 is especially significant in Dominion, and most 5s are substantially better than most 4s
- Knights are pretty good for a 5
- Sir Martin is not a very good Knight.

I know I believe all three of these things. Now these three points seem to be a little contradictory. Sir Martin is a good 5, for the price of 4. Isn't that really good? How would you rank a pile of 10 Sir Martins against the other 4s?

Well, unless Sir Martin is on top of the Knights stack, there is this hidden cost of "somebody has to get to 5, maybe several times" for him to be available, at which point the difference in cost between 4 and 5 probably isn't that relevant. I'm not sure how I would rank a stack of 10 Sir Martins against the other 4s, but it would be quite good.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: SCSN on November 26, 2015, 01:20:29 pm
The problem with your argument is that while the first point is probably a correct observation when you average out all cards over all possible gamestates, it's sort of meaningless to apply it to every individual instance and you certainly shouldn't expect it to always hold.

In the case of Sirt Martin, its price point is only relevant when you hit exactly $4 and you want a Knight that does pretty much nothing for your deck development. The last point is especially poignant, because it means you rarely want to open with Sir Martin (just like you rarely want to open with Josephine, Michael or Molly), while the difference between $4 and $5 actually matters most in the early stages of the game.

As for a stack of Sir Martins, I'd say it would be a middle of the road $4.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: funkdoc on November 26, 2015, 01:35:15 pm
agree with jsh on Michael, and Destry should totally be top 3
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: mameluke on November 26, 2015, 02:06:29 pm
Is trashing with Anna THAT good? If you trash your coppers / estates / junk in a Knights game, isn't it more likely your $3-$6 cards will be trashed by other players' knights?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: Mr Anderson on November 26, 2015, 02:17:55 pm
Trashing is that good, you depend on getting (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png)-(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png) costs most of the time and get that many you are likely to reveal at least one anyway, there is just no way you want to pass on trashing, especially when Dame Anna is the only trasher.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: assemble_me on November 26, 2015, 03:31:13 pm
Quote from: funkdoc on November 26, 2015, 01:35:15 pm
agree with jsh on Michael, and Destry should totally be top 3

The discard attack can be big as well, but I surely like Destry over Molly as well.
Also I think Natalie should be over Silvia. Sometimes the gaining can be really big. Also just gaining Silvers isn't bad in many Knights games. The good thing about Silivia is that she's never really bad, but that also means she never really shines (except when you need a terminal Silver for King's Court, maybe).
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: Beyond Awesome on November 26, 2015, 03:53:32 pm
Oh man, a couple of days ago I got paired up with a player who played very suboptimally, but went first and opened Anna on a 5/2. Anna was the only trasher and he ended up kicking my ass despite not playing well. I almost came out from behind and won, but the Dame Anna advantage is just so, so significant.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: Accatitippi on November 26, 2015, 04:25:54 pm
Quote from: Beyond Awesome on November 26, 2015, 03:53:32 pm
Oh man, a couple of days ago I got paired up with a player who played very suboptimally, but went first and opened Anna on a 5/2. Anna was the only trasher and he ended up kicking my ass despite not playing well. I almost came out from behind and won, but the Dame Anna advantage is just so, so significant.
Yes, but a trasher's effectiveness is much lower if it's gained later, so we should keep in mind that your case shows Anna at her OP-est.
The fact that collectively piledriving the knights is a common behaviour makes her stronger, since games will last longer.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: drsteelhammer on November 26, 2015, 05:35:01 pm
To sir martin: The +buy isn't very good in most knight games since your deck probably gets demolished to the point where you are not making use of the buys.

Unpopular opinion: Sylvia>Destry because she is more likely to let you hit 5 again in those disastrous knight games where you deck is worthless until the knights go down.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: Awaclus on November 26, 2015, 08:11:27 pm
Natalie and Vander should be way higher. Molly and Michael should be lower.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: AdamH on November 26, 2015, 09:49:17 pm
Quote from: werothegreat on November 26, 2015, 10:43:02 am
Man, people really like trashing now.

Trashing is super good, man. Thinning is HWinning and all that.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: Roadrunner7671 on November 27, 2015, 01:20:07 am
Anna is trash if she is low in the pile.
Molly is good.
Bailey is good.
Michael is okayish.

EDIT: I didn't vote Sir Vander first!
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: drsteelhammer on November 27, 2015, 09:06:30 am
Quote from: mameluke on November 26, 2015, 02:06:29 pm
Is trashing with Anna THAT good? If you trash your coppers / estates / junk in a Knights game, isn't it more likely your $3-$6 cards will be trashed by other players' knights?

Yes. But it is also guaranteed to be drawn by more often. In other words: Not making profit in order to avoid taxes is not worth it.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: Chris is me on November 27, 2015, 09:29:30 am
Kind of surprised people prefer Sir Vander, who literally does nothing, to Sir Martin, when Buy can often be very scarce and thus Martin is the only source for it on the board. I mean it's still a bad Knight, but if I could choose what I get I would prefer it to Vander a lot of the time.

Anna is clearly the best Knight though.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: Burning Skull on November 27, 2015, 09:34:50 am
Quote from: Chris is me on November 27, 2015, 09:29:30 am
Kind of surprised people prefer Sir Vander, who literally does nothing, to Sir Martin, when Buy can often be very scarce and thus Martin is the only source for it on the board. I mean it's still a bad Knight, but if I could choose what I get I would prefer it to Vander a lot of the time.

Both Vander and Martin won't survive the bloodshed probably, but Vander will at least leave some legacy after himself.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: Awaclus on November 27, 2015, 10:02:27 am
Quote from: Chris is me on November 27, 2015, 09:29:30 am
Kind of surprised people prefer Sir Vander, who literally does nothing, to Sir Martin, when Buy can often be very scarce and thus Martin is the only source for it on the board. I mean it's still a bad Knight, but if I could choose what I get I would prefer it to Vander a lot of the time.

The thing about Knights is that they tend to get trashed. +buy is nice, but you can't count on it being still there when you need it the most. Instead, it's good if you get a free Gold when the inevitable happens because that functions as extra fodder for your opponent's Knights.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: Co0kieL0rd on December 26, 2015, 11:51:56 am
Quote from: drsteelhammer on November 26, 2015, 05:35:01 pm
To sir martin: The +buy isn't very good in most knI like herght games since your deck probably gets demolished to the point where you are not making use of the buys.

Unpopular opinion: Sylvia>Destry because she is more likely to let you hit 5 again in those disastrous knight games where you deck is worthless until the knights go down.

Exactly. I also think Dame Sylvia is quite good. I had her on rank 3 or 4. She's better than Molly because +$2 is always useful and I like her more than destry because I dislike dead draw in knights games
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: Knights
Post by: shark_bait on January 04, 2016, 12:31:34 pm
Quote from: Awaclus on November 26, 2015, 08:11:27 pm
Natalie and Vander should be way higher. Molly and Michael should be lower.

I'll second this motion.  I should have made a list, maybe my opinion could have righted the lists a bit.  ;)