(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/b7/Chancellor.jpg/200px-Chancellor.jpg) | #43 =0 Chancellor (Base) Weighted Average: 8.5% ▲0.3pp / Unweighted Average: 10.1% / Median: 3.0% ▼3.1pp / Standard Deviation: 15.2% Chancellor stays the worst card in this list while having almost the same average. It has also a pretty low deviation. It was voted last 37 times and 4 times above average. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/95/Great_Hall.jpg/200px-Great_Hall.jpg) | #42 ▼1 Great Hall (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 14.1% ▼2.7pp / Unweighted Average: 16.6% / Median: 9.8% ▼8.4pp / Standard Deviation: 17.1% Great Hall is one rank worse and has a worse average value. It still has a lead over Chancellor of over 5pp. It was voted last 11 times and 4 times above average. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/d6/Woodcutter.jpg/200px-Woodcutter.jpg) | #41 ▲1 Woodcutter (Base) Weighted Average: 15.4% ▲0.1pp / Unweighted Average: 17.6% / Median: 10.5% ▲1.4pp / Standard Deviation: 19.9% Woodcutter has basically the same average value, but is one rank higher. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted last 8 times and 9 times above 50%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/55/Fortune_Teller.jpg/200px-Fortune_Teller.jpg) | #40 ▼2 Fortune Teller (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 16.5% ▼9.2pp / Unweighted Average: 16.6% / Median: 11.9% ▼16.4pp / Standard Deviation: 16.2% Fortune Teller made a big drop of over 9pp and 2 ranks. It has also a pretty low deviation. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking - on the same rank as Great Hall. It was voted last 8 times and 5 times above average, even once on the first rank. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/a7/Trade_Route.jpg/200px-Trade_Route.jpg) | #39 ▼3 Trade Route (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 21.0% ▼10.2pp / Unweighted Average: 25.3% / Median: 19.1% ▼11.2pp / Standard Deviation: 19.1% Trade Route made an even bigger drop of over 10pp and 3 ranks! It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 12 times above average. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/09/Masterpiece.jpg/200px-Masterpiece.jpg) | #38 ▼7 Masterpiece (Guilds) Weighted Average: 24.1% ▼14.5pp / Unweighted Average: 26.8% / Median: 21.4% ▼11.9pp / Standard Deviation: 21.3% And Masterpiece made an even even bigger drop of over 14pp and 7 ranks! It would be still one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted last 3 times and 16 times above average. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Develop.jpg/200px-Develop.jpg) | #37 ▲3 Develop (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 24.9% ▲2.0pp / Unweighted Average: 24.6% / Median: 19.2% ▲1.0pp / Standard Deviation: 18.0% Develop is slightly better, but climbed 3 ranks. It would be 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted last 3 times and 13 times above average. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/70/Sage.jpg/200px-Sage.jpg) | #36 ▼2 Sage (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 25.6% ▼7.9pp / Unweighted Average: 29.0% / Median: 24.2% ▼9.1pp / Standard Deviation: 22.2% After losing 5 ranks and 13pp last year, Sage lost again nearly 8pp and 2 ranks. It has the highest deviation in this list so far. It would be 2 ranks higher in the unweighted list. It was voted 6 times last and 15 times above average. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/11/Loan.jpg/200px-Loan.jpg) | #35 ▲2 Loan (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 26.4% ▼2.6pp / Unweighted Average: 26.8% / Median: 23.8% ▼0.4pp / Standard Deviation: 20.1% Loan is slightly worse than last year, but is still 2 ranks higher. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted list. It was voted 6 times last and 11 times above 50%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/50/Workshop.jpg/200px-Workshop.jpg) | #34 ▲5 Workshop (Base) Weighted Average: 27.2% ▲2.7pp / Unweighted Average: 27.4% / Median: 23.8% ▲2.6pp / Standard Deviation: 16.6% Workshop is slightly better than last year, but is now 5 ranks higher! It has a pretty low deviation. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 13 times above average. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/fa/Caravan_Guard.jpg/200px-Caravan_Guard.jpg) | #33 Caravan Guard (Adventures) Weighted Average: 29.3% / Unweighted Average: 29.1% / Median: 26.2% / Standard Deviation: 19.6% Caravan Guard is the first new Adventures card. It was voted last twice and 7 times above average. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c2/Tunnel.jpg/200px-Tunnel.jpg) | #32 ▼7 Tunnel (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 33.5% ▼13.5pp / Unweighted Average: 40.3% / Median: 36.4% ▼18.2pp / Standard Deviation: 22.9% Tunnel is another big loser in this list. It's over 13pp and 7 ranks worse. It has the fifth highest deviation in this list. It would be still 4 ranks higher in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 13 times above 70%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2c/Plan.jpg/320px-Plan.jpg) | #31 Plan (Adventures) Weighted Average: 37.0% / Unweighted Average: 38.2% / Median: 35.7% / Standard Deviation: 22.8% Plan is the first event in this list. It has almost the same high deviation as Tunnel. It was voted last once and 5 times above 70% with one being on the first rank. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/05/Smugglers.jpg/200px-Smugglers.jpg) | #30 ▲3 Smugglers (Seaside) Weighted Average: 37.3% ▲4.2pp / Unweighted Average: 38.0% / Median: 33.3% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 20.7% Smugglers has a clearly better average value and is also 3 ranks higher although it has only a small lead of 0.25pp over Plan. It would be still 2 ranks lower in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 6 times above 70%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/8e/Shanty_Town.jpg/200px-Shanty_Town.jpg) | #29 ▲1 Shanty Town (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 39.0% ▲0.7pp / Unweighted Average: 40.8% / Median: 42.4% ▲5.8pp / Standard Deviation: 18.1% Shanty Town has almost the same average value, but is slightly better and one rank higher. It would be even 3 ranks higher in the unweighted list. It was voted 5 times above 70%, once on the first rank. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/fc/Oasis.jpg/200px-Oasis.jpg) | #28 ▼2 Oasis (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 40.1% ▼3.6pp / Unweighted Average: 38.8% / Median: 39.4% ▼6.1pp / Standard Deviation: 20.3% Oasis lost a bit in its average value and also 2 ranks. It would be even 2 more ranks lower in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 5 times above 70% with one vote being on the first rank. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/97/Oracle.jpg/200px-Oracle.jpg) | #27 ▼5 Oracle (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 40.5% ▼8.9pp / Unweighted Average: 39.5% / Median: 38.1% ▼10.4pp / Standard Deviation: 19.9% Oracle is the next big loser: nearly 9pp and 5 ranks worse. It's only 0.4pp better than Oasis. It would be 2 ranks lower in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 6 times above 70%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/b4/Storeroom.jpg/200px-Storeroom.jpg) | #26 ▲1 Storeroom (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 41.2% ▼2.2pp / Unweighted Average: 43.6% / Median: 44.7% ▼0.8pp / Standard Deviation: 20.4% Storeroom is slightly worse than last year, but is still one rank higher. It would be even one more rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted 10 times above 70% with one first rank. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Wishing_Well.jpg/200px-Wishing_Well.jpg) | #25 ▲6 Wishing Well (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 44.1% ▲7.4pp / Unweighted Average: 40.6% / Median: 39.0% ▼8.7pp / Standard Deviation: 21.3% Wishing Well is a big winner: it's over 7pp and 6 ranks better. It would be 2 ranks lower in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 11 times above 70%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/b2/Doctor.jpg/200px-Doctor.jpg) | #24 ▼1 Doctor (Guilds) Weighted Average: 44.4% ▼4.4pp / Unweighted Average: 45.4% / Median: 42.4% ▼9.1pp / Standard Deviation: 21.5% Doctor has a worse average value and is also one rank lower. It has only a small lead of 0.24pp over Wishing Well. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 14 times above 70%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c6/Lookout.jpg/200px-Lookout.jpg) | #23 ▲5 Lookout (Seaside) Weighted Average: 45.0% ▲3.5pp / Unweighted Average: 43.7% / Median: 45.2% ▲2.8pp / Standard Deviation: 21.4% Lookout is over 3pp better and 5 ranks higher in comparism to last year. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 10 times above 70%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e3/Expedition.jpg/320px-Expedition.jpg) | #22 Expedition (Adventures) Weighted Average: 47.7% / Unweighted Average: 46.4% / Median: 46.3% / Standard Deviation: 20.5% Expedition is the second event. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 10 times above 70%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/90/Bonfire.jpg/320px-Bonfire.jpg) | #21 Bonfire (Adventures) Weighted Average: 50.4% / Unweighted Average: 45.7% / Median: 47.6% / Standard Deviation: 25.2% Bonfire is the second event in a row and the first card above 50%. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted list. It has the highest deviation in this list with 3 votes on the last rank and 19 votes below 30% overall. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f1/Market_Square.jpg/200px-Market_Square.jpg) | #20 ▼2 Market Square (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 51.3% ▼6.5pp / Unweighted Average: 54.4% / Median: 54.8% ▼5.8pp / Standard Deviation: 20.8% Market Square lost over 6pp and 2 ranks. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 14 times below 30%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/5a/Village.jpg/200px-Village.jpg) | #19 =0 Village (Base) Weighted Average: 51.7% ▼0.8pp / Unweighted Average: 52.5% / Median: 55.3% ▲0.7pp / Standard Deviation: 18.7% Village has less than 1pp difference and is also the first card since Chancellor that stayed on the same rank. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted last once and 12 times below 30%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/1e/Dungeon.jpg/200px-Dungeon.jpg) | #18 Dungeon (Adventures) Weighted Average: 53.5% / Unweighted Average: 55.0% / Median: 59.5% / Standard Deviation: 22.3% And here is the next Adventures card. It was voted 11 times below 30%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/8d/Scheme.jpg/200px-Scheme.jpg) | #17 ▼1 Scheme (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 53.9% ▼4.3pp / Unweighted Average: 55.5% / Median: 59.5% ▼4.1pp / Standard Deviation: 17.6% Scheme lost a bit in its average value and one rank too. It has a small lead over Dungeon of 0.42pp. It was voted last once and 11 times below 30%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e1/Guide.jpg/200px-Guide.jpg) | #16 Guide (Adventures) Weighted Average: 56.0% / Unweighted Average: 56.9% / Median: 57.9% / Standard Deviation: 18.0% Guide is the next new card in this list. It was voted only 7 times below 30%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Warehouse.jpg/200px-Warehouse.jpg) | #15 ▼2 Warehouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 59.3% ▼5.7pp / Unweighted Average: 60.3% / Median: 61.9% ▼7.8pp / Standard Deviation: 18.7% Warehouse is nearly 6pp and 2 ranks worse. It was voted below 30% 9 times and even on the first rank once. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/ec/Gear.jpg/200px-Gear.jpg) | #14 Gear (Adventures) Weighted Average: 63.7% / Unweighted Average: 63.6% / Median: 69.1% / Standard Deviation: 20.7% And Gear is the third Adventures card in the last 5 ranks. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 6 times below 30%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/fa/Black_Market.jpg/200px-Black_Market.jpg) | #13 ▲7 Black Market (Promo) Weighted Average: 66.4% ▲21.1pp / Unweighted Average: 61.8% / Median: 68.3% ▲25.9pp / Standard Deviation: 24.8% Black Market is a big winner. It's over 20pp (!) better and 7 ranks higher, but still not the biggest jump in this list. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted list. It has the second highest deviation in this list with being voted last once and 13 times below 30%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/8e/Hermit.jpg/200px-Hermit.jpg) | #12 ▼1 Hermit (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 69.5% ▲1.5pp / Unweighted Average: 66.8% / Median: 71.4% ▲1.7pp / Standard Deviation: 18.6% Hermit is slightly better, but still lost one rank. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted 5 times below 30%. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c2/Watchtower.jpg/200px-Watchtower.jpg) | #11 ▼1 Watchtower (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 69.6% ▼2.0pp / Unweighted Average: 69.8% / Median: 70.7 ▼2.0pp / Standard Deviation: 16.5% Watchtower lost 2pp and one rank. It has only a small lead of 0.08pp over Hermit. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It has a pretty low deviation with only 3 votes below 30% and 2 first ranks on the other hand. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/50/Amulet.jpg/200px-Amulet.jpg) | #10 Amulet (Adventures) Weighted Average: 71.1% / Unweighted Average: 66.7% / Median: 73.8% / Standard Deviation: 23.6% Amulet is the second best new Adventures card. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. It has the third highest deviation in this list. It was voted last once and 13 times below average. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/71/Menagerie.jpg/200px-Menagerie.jpg) | #9 ▼2 Menagerie (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 78.1% ▼1.2pp / Unweighted Average: 75.7% / Median: 83.3% ▲1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 16.0% Menagerie is only slightly worse, but still lost 2 ranks. It has a big lead over Amulet of 7pp. It has a pretty low deviation. It was voted last once, 8 times below average and on the first rank twice. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/d9/Ferry.jpg/320px-Ferry.jpg) | #8 Ferry (Adventures) Weighted Average: 79.8% / Unweighted Average: 77.2% / Median: 83.3% / Standard Deviation: 23.2% Ferry is the best new Adventures card. It has the third highest deviation in this list with 9 votes below average on one side and 7 votes on the first rank on the other side. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e6/Forager.jpg/200px-Forager.jpg) | #7 =0 Forager (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 80.1% ▲3.4pp / Unweighted Average: 78.5% / Median: 83.3% ▲4.5pp / Standard Deviation: 18.9% Forager has a better average value, but still stayed on the same rank. It has a small lead over Ferry of 0.31pp. It was voted last once, 8 times below 50% and 5 times on the first rank. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e7/Swindler.jpg/200px-Swindler.jpg) | #6 ▼1 Swindler (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 81.0% ▲0.2pp / Unweighted Average: 78.7% / Median: 83.3% ▼1.6pp / Standard Deviation: 16.0% Swindler basically didn't change at all, but still lost one rank. It was voted 6 times below average and on the first rank once. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3b/Fishing_Village.jpg/200px-Fishing_Village.jpg) | #5 ▼2 Fishing Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 85.3% ▼0.5pp / Unweighted Average: 85.2% / Median: 88.1% ▲0.2pp / Standard Deviation: 12.7% Fishing Village basically didn't change as well, but even lost 2 ranks. It would be 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It has the second lowest deviation in this list as it was only voted below average twice and on the first rank 5 times. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/88/Steward.jpg/200px-Steward.jpg) | #4 =0 Steward (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 86.3% ▲1.8pp / Unweighted Average: 84.0% / Median: 88.1% ▲3.1pp / Standard Deviation: 14.7% Steward is better than last year, but stayed on the same rank. It has the third lowest deviation in this list. It was voted below average 3 times and on the first rank twice. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/74/Urchin.jpg/200px-Urchin.jpg) | #3 ▲8 Urchin (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 86.4% ▲26.1pp / Unweighted Average: 81.2% / Median: 86.8% ▲26.2pp / Standard Deviation: 17.9% Urchin is THE big winner this year: 8 ranks higher and over 26pp better, wow! It would be still 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 7 times below average and 8 times on the first rank. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/0e/Masquerade.jpg/200px-Masquerade.jpg) | #2 ▼1 Masquerade (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 91.9% ▼1.7pp / Unweighted Average: 90.6% / Median: 97.0% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 15.5% After being a close first rank last year, Masquerade is back being second. It was voted below average 4 times and 34 times on the first rank. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/74/Ambassador.jpg/200px-Ambassador.jpg) | #1 ▲1 Ambassador (Seaside) Weighted Average: 94.2% ▲0.6pp / Unweighted Average: 92.2% / Median: 97.0% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 12.6% Ambassador is the old new #1. It has also the lowest deviation in this list. It was voted below average 3 times and 31 times on the first rank (less than Masquerade). |
Why is loan higher than trade route and develop
I think Chancellor is still in last place at this point out of pure momentum - people put her there as automatically as they put Chapel and King's Court in first place of their respective lists. Poor Angela here is easily better than both Great Hall and Woodcutter, methinks.
Develop is near the bottom because it is hard to utilize. The more skill you have, the more you can utilize it, and the higher you would probably rate it.
Really, they shouldn't even be different cards - adding a +Buy to Chancellor makes it a reasonable $3, if still not that good.said Donald, then he thought, "Wait, I already have Chancellor and Woodcutter at $3, so to keep it from being strictly better than them, let's bump it to $4 and throw in an interesting on-buy ability or something."
Really, they shouldn't even be different cards - adding a +Buy to Chancellor makes it a reasonable $3, if still not that good.said Donald, then he thought, "Wait, I already have Chancellor and Woodcutter at $3, so to keep it from being strictly better than them, let's bump it to $4 and throw in an interesting on-buy ability or something."
Develop is near the bottom because it is hard to utilize. The more skill you have, the more you can utilize it, and the higher you would probably rate it.
I think this is a big part of it. Develop was fairly low for me (though not bottom quarter) as a compromise between how good the card is for me (i.e. not very-I have no idea when and how to use it) and how good it is for the truly elite players.
On that note, someone should tell me how and when to use develop!
Bonfire: Limited copper-trashing with no benefit. You want to use this early in the game, otherwise you're likely to have treasures you don't want to trash and/or more than 3 coins. But you really need more cards early in the game to improve the quality of your deck. I'm not impressed. Maybe Bonfire is more valuable when paired with a decent Estate trasher that also gains non-treasures (Remodel, Transmogrify, Develop)? I guess you can trash Ruins, too. Meh.
I often begrudgingly trash the Coppers with Stewart in that situation. But it's a bad beat. I'd rather have an Estate or two to trash. Or, a 2-cost card worth buying. Or, a powerful 6-cost card worth buying. And I know that, with Stewart, I will have an opportunity to remove my pure trash (Estates) soon. If I use Bonfire early, I'm reducing the purchasing power of my deck. I would only do so if I had another good way to trash my Estates. Even in the rare situations where I would consider Bonfire, I'm not thrilled about it; its impact is low.Bonfire: Limited copper-trashing with no benefit. You want to use this early in the game, otherwise you're likely to have treasures you don't want to trash and/or more than 3 coins. But you really need more cards early in the game to improve the quality of your deck. I'm not impressed. Maybe Bonfire is more valuable when paired with a decent Estate trasher that also gains non-treasures (Remodel, Transmogrify, Develop)? I guess you can trash Ruins, too. Meh.
Well, I don't know. If you have 4 Coppers and a Steward in hand, do you trash two Coppers and buy nothing? Usually you do. Bonfire is the same thing, only without first having to buy Steward. Being able to trash on T1/T2 is pretty big as well.
Develop is criminally underrated. It should not be in the bottom quarter.
Bonfire: Limited copper-trashing with no benefit. You want to use this early in the game, otherwise you're likely to have treasures you don't want to trash and/or more than 3 coins. But you really need more cards early in the game to improve the quality of your deck. I'm not impressed. Maybe Bonfire is more valuable when paired with a decent Estate trasher that also gains non-treasures (Remodel, Transmogrify, Develop)? I guess you can trash Ruins, too. Meh.Bonfire is a complete speed thrasher. It is kind of like mine, except it trashes two cards instead of about 5. You can also get rid of early game utilities.
Bonfire is a complete speed thrasher. It is kind of like mine, except it trashes two cards instead of about 5. You can also get rid of early game utilities.
Sage: Maybe I don't know the right time to get this card, but I've been disappointed every time I've bought it. Sure, you can find your other opening buy easier. So it sounds like it might be good with something like Sea Hag or Young Witch, but you really need economy with those cards. Maybe it's decent with Militia or Cutpurse? I dunno. Later in the game (especially with trashing) it approaches a cantrip. Once you start greening, the filtering is much worse than Farming Village. And you don't want multiples of Sage. It's SO low-impact. It's the Pearl Diver of three coin cards, in my mind.
Oasis: This is a pretty lackluster card. Sure, if you have only one or two and haven't trashed heavily, it's as good as a Peddler (and better in unusual circumstances). But Peddler is a card I want to have a bunch of. I don't get excited about one or two. Caravan Guard is bad, but Oasis is worse, IMO.
I think Chancellor is still in last place at this point out of pure momentum - people put her there as automatically as they put Chapel and King's Court in first place of their respective lists. Poor Angela here is easily better than both Great Hall and Woodcutter, methinks.
It wasBonfire is a complete speed thrasher. It is kind of like mine, except it trashes two cards instead of about 5. You can also get rid of early game utilities.
Not sure if intentional...
Poor Tunnel. It's not that good, but... worse than Shanty Town? Really? Shanty Town is garbage.
Doctor worse than Lookout??? Doctor is WAY safer than Lookout, and more useful.
Storeroom is better than people give it credit for, particularly in Gardens or Silk Road games (or Tunnel games!), but I see why it's not super popular.
Bonfire is better than all of these cards.
Poor Tunnel. It's not that good, but... worse than Shanty Town? Really? Shanty Town is garbage.
Scheme adds more than just a little bit of reliability, especially when Throne Room or Kings Court is involved. And it allows for playing an early key action more than once in a row, which is often huge.
Yeah, I think "Scheme is low impact" is the biggest understatement of this thread, really. It can be absolutely critical to getting early attacks off, heavy trashing early, and general reliability of an engine. Some games it does relatively little, but other games it's completely essential.Perhaps this is a learning moment for me. When would you open with Scheme?
Scheme + Sea Hag/Young Witch seems to fall into the same trap as Sage + junker. Maybe it's a good opening if there aren't any great 5+ cost cards.I don't think it falls into the same trap as Sage+junker because you can keep topdecking Scheme until you play your junker and unlike Sage it doesn't fizzle if it's in the same hand as the junker. Also Scheme doesn't get worse as the game goes on like Sage does.
non-terminal? Scheme + Tournament/Ironmonger, perhaps?
Right. Scheme is better than Sage. But the similarity is, if you open with them + junker, you're giving up on 5+ coin hands in turns 3 and 4. Which, on most boards, seems unwise. But I can see it being the best play on some boards.Scheme + Sea Hag/Young Witch seems to fall into the same trap as Sage + junker. Maybe it's a good opening if there aren't any great 5+ cost cards.I don't think it falls into the same trap as Sage+junker because you can keep topdecking Scheme until you play your junker and unlike Sage it doesn't fizzle if it's in the same hand as the junker. Also Scheme doesn't get worse as the game goes on like Sage does.
non-terminal? Scheme + Tournament/Ironmonger, perhaps?
Poor Tunnel. It's not that good, but... worse than Shanty Town? Really? Shanty Town is garbage.
I have Shanty Town on 23 and Tunnel on 41 out of 43. The aforementioned Develop takes place 21.
my shanty's at 22, i guess i haven't developed a $5 into throne room-grand market enough for it to be more than 34Poor Tunnel. It's not that good, but... worse than Shanty Town? Really? Shanty Town is garbage.
I have Shanty Town on 23 and Tunnel on 41 out of 43. The aforementioned Develop takes place 21.
Lol, I have Tunnel on 41 and Develop at 21,too. Shanty Town at 24, tough
Black Market is a big winner. It's over 20pp (!) better and 7 ranks higher, but still not the biggest jump in this list.
I get the feeling that Guide is overrated here. Also, why is Dungeon not higher than Warehouse?
I get the feeling that Guide is overrated here. Also, why is Dungeon not higher than Warehouse?
I get the feeling that Guide is overrated here. Also, why is Dungeon not higher than Warehouse?
Dungeon really isn't as good as it looks, honestly. It sifts more cards over 2 turns, but only 1 more card total, and +2/-2 is really a lot less benefit than +3/-3. Even though on the second turn you keep a 5 card hand, I think Warehouse is often a better card.
Black Market is too low, Gear is too high
Black Market is too low, Gear is too high
I know you're being flippant, but Gear seriously is under-ranked.
The problem with a card like Tunnel is: if you're ranking it, are you thinking about all possible games in most of which it's just an Estate+, or about the games in which you can actively use it?Poor Tunnel. It's not that good, but... worse than Shanty Town? Really? Shanty Town is garbage.
I have Shanty Town on 23 and Tunnel on 41 out of 43. The aforementioned Develop takes place 21.
Lol, I have Tunnel on 41 and Develop at 21,too. Shanty Town at 24, tough
1.) Urchin [X]
2.) Masquerade [X]
3.) Ambassador [X]
4.) Swindler [X]
5.) Fishing Village [X]
6.) Ferry [X]
7.) Menagerie [X]
8.) Forager [X]
9.) Gear [X]
10.) Hermit [X]
11.) Steward [X]
12.) Lookout [X]
13.) Watchtower [X]
14.) Village [X]
15.) Market Square [X]
16.) Dungeon [X]
17.) Bonfire [X]
18.) Wishing Well [X]
19.) Warehouse [X]
20.) Doctor [X]
21.) Oracle [X]
22.) Develop [X]
23.) Guide [X]
24.) Scheme [X]
25.) Woodcutter [X]
26.) Caravan Guard [X]
27.) Oasis [X]
28.) Plan [X]
29.) Amulet [X]
30.) Workshop [X]
31.) Storeroom [X]
32.) Expedition [X]
33.) Smugglers [X]
34.) Great Hall [X]
35.) Shanty Town [X]
36.) Loan [X]
37.) Masterpiece [X]
38.) Sage [X]
39.) Tunnel [X]
40.) Trade Route [X]
41.) Chancellor [X]
42.) Fortune Teller [X]
Great Hall is the card that literally does nothing. Even Pearl Diver looks at the bottom of your deck. That's not to say I'll never pick up Great Halls, but it certainly does not affect the board in the way Tunnel does. Tunnel is rather low on here, I feel.
Oh, certainly Fortune Teller is near the bottom. I'd honestly put FT under Chancellor. With trashing, FT basically does what Chancellor does, but for your opponent.
Great hall I ranked 34th, it's 42nd here
A very small difference, but wow, how can people put Great Hall below some of these cards? Tunnel? Better than Great Hall? No way man. Most of these cards have such a high opportunity cost, and Great Hall is at least a cantrip. Cantrips got a lot better IMO with the last two expansions: Advisor, Herald, any token card, they all love cantrips. Why the hate here?
Black Market is too low, Gear is too high
I know you're being flippant, but Gear seriously is under-ranked.
I'm not being flippant, though admittedly I took the chance to make a parody post; I do honestly think the hype for Gear is overstated. It's a middle of the pack $3 option that looks like it is accomplishing more than it is most of the time. That's not to say it's a bad card (far from it) but I believe I ranked it in the 20s and stand by that. I am perfectly willing to accept how wrong I am when we have real data from competitive games to draw on, but well, things are how they are.
OTOH Black Market fundamentally changes the game and makes engines possible where nothing was there frequently. It takes a skill to play well, and sure sometimes it's less good than others, but the net results are more extreme than saving a few cards for next turn or being a Moat. In my ranking methodology this puts it a few tiers above Gear. The fact they are right next to each other in the rankings is what I fundamentally disagree with.
Great Hall is the card that literally does nothing. Even Pearl Diver looks at the bottom of your deck. That's not to say I'll never pick up Great Halls, but it certainly does not affect the board in the way Tunnel does. Tunnel is rather low on here, I feel.
Black Market is too low, Gear is too high
I know you're being flippant, but Gear seriously is under-ranked.
I'm not being flippant, though admittedly I took the chance to make a parody post; I do honestly think the hype for Gear is overstated. It's a middle of the pack $3 option that looks like it is accomplishing more than it is most of the time. That's not to say it's a bad card (far from it) but I believe I ranked it in the 20s and stand by that. I am perfectly willing to accept how wrong I am when we have real data from competitive games to draw on, but well, things are how they are.
OTOH Black Market fundamentally changes the game and makes engines possible where nothing was there frequently. It takes a skill to play well, and sure sometimes it's less good than others, but the net results are more extreme than saving a few cards for next turn or being a Moat. In my ranking methodology this puts it a few tiers above Gear. The fact they are right next to each other in the rankings is what I fundamentally disagree with.
I'm not saying Black Market isn't under-ranked; I don't think I can really put forth an informed opinion there. I do worry that Gear-BM is so good that it's competitive with a lot of engines. I think it's pretty clearly better than Courtyard-BM, and you can get three Gears and still guarantee that they'll never meaningfully collide (when you play one, you can always set aside the other two). I really do wish that Gear had stayed costing $4 and Ranger $3.
Gear fixes all of Haven's problems.
By the way, what card do you think will be first?
I haven't got it there. (Now, my vote doesn't count for much, as this is weighted, but hey) (And I wasn't the one with Fortune Teller on #1, because Fortune Teller sucks)By the way, what card do you think will be first?
Masquerade, of course.
I haven't got it there. (Now, my vote doesn't count for much, as this is weighted, but hey) (And I wasn't the one with Fortune Teller on #1, because Fortune Teller sucks)By the way, what card do you think will be first?
Masquerade, of course.
I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?
I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?
Iso rating
Wait, my iso rating is actually negative (with a grand total of 8 games played) since I exclusively play bots. It doesn't bother me that my lists doesn't matter a fly's fart, but if you are using a weighted mean by the absolute iso ratings then my list is being considered upside down! ;D (or is it?)
I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?
Iso rating
Wait, my iso rating is actually negative (with a grand total of 8 games played) since I exclusively play bots. It doesn't bother me that my lists doesn't matter a fly's fart, but if you are using a weighted mean by the absolute iso ratings then my list is being considered upside down! ;D (or is it?)
I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?
Iso rating
Wait, my iso rating is actually negative (with a grand total of 8 games played) since I exclusively play bots. It doesn't bother me that my lists doesn't matter a fly's fart, but if you are using a weighted mean by the absolute iso ratings then my list is being considered upside down! ;D (or is it?)
No, if you have a negative level, I assume a level of 0.
So I'll share the cards I ranked more than 7 ranks away from the norm. Actually, in making this list I found that I had a lot less disagreement than I thought I would on a large scale, so I'm pretty happy about that.
Keep in mind that I didn't rank Black Market, I didn't correct my ranks based on that, but it looks like that didn't matter.
Lookout I ranked 12th, it's 23rd here.
Lookout went way up, and I ranked it even higher. When did we ever think Lookout was actually bad? Lookout is awesome! You trash a card that isn't in your hand and you don't even spend an action! Yes, as much as Lookout "won" with these lists, I still think it's underrated.
Develop I ranked 22nd, it's 37th here.
I might have been a little generous with Develop, but there's no way Develop belongs all the way down there. Yes yes you can do some really broken things with Develop when the stars align and yes it's not all that good otherwise, but its effect of turning Estates into $3 cards and top-decking them is still pretty good, and it will thin Coppers for you. Like, on maybe 50% of boards it's at least as good as Remodel most of the time. Ok that really doesn't mean all that much. Develop is better than this list indicates.
Woodcutter I ranked 25th, it's 41st here.
Umm, wow, how did Woodcutter get that high for me? This is awkward...
Amulet I ranked 29th, it's 10+ here.
Amulet is way, way, way too high on this list. How can anyone think that Amulet is better than Gear? I like Gear where it is for the most part (it was within 7 ranks, I think I had it 9th?) There have been long discussions about Amulet in the past but I'm standing my ground here. Amulet belongs down there with Doctor, not up here with all of these really good cards. You will all soon see the light.
Expedition I ranked 32nd, it's 22nd here
I'm willing to believe I underrated Expedition a little and the general public has overrated it a little. I think the right answer for Expedition is somewhere in the middle here.
Great hall I ranked 34th, it's 42nd here
A very small difference, but wow, how can people put Great Hall below some of these cards? Tunnel? Better than Great Hall? No way man. Most of these cards have such a high opportunity cost, and Great Hall is at least a cantrip. Cantrips got a lot better IMO with the last two expansions: Advisor, Herald, any token card, they all love cantrips. Why the hate here?
Anyways, these are all my opinions, and I'm really glad these cards lists are happening again. Qvist put in a lot of work on these and we're getting some really good stuff out of them. <3
EDIT: I guess I'll put in my full rankings here in case anyone cares to criticize any more of my picks.Code: [Select]1.) Urchin [X]
2.) Masquerade [X]
3.) Ambassador [X]
4.) Swindler [X]
5.) Fishing Village [X]
6.) Ferry [X]
7.) Menagerie [X]
8.) Forager [X]
9.) Gear [X]
10.) Hermit [X]
11.) Steward [X]
12.) Lookout [X]
13.) Watchtower [X]
14.) Village [X]
15.) Market Square [X]
16.) Dungeon [X]
17.) Bonfire [X]
18.) Wishing Well [X]
19.) Warehouse [X]
20.) Doctor [X]
21.) Oracle [X]
22.) Develop [X]
23.) Guide [X]
24.) Scheme [X]
25.) Woodcutter [X]
26.) Caravan Guard [X]
27.) Oasis [X]
28.) Plan [X]
29.) Amulet [X]
30.) Workshop [X]
31.) Storeroom [X]
32.) Expedition [X]
33.) Smugglers [X]
34.) Great Hall [X]
35.) Shanty Town [X]
36.) Loan [X]
37.) Masterpiece [X]
38.) Sage [X]
39.) Tunnel [X]
40.) Trade Route [X]
41.) Chancellor [X]
42.) Fortune Teller [X]
I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?
Iso rating
Wait, my iso rating is actually negative (with a grand total of 8 games played) since I exclusively play bots. It doesn't bother me that my lists doesn't matter a fly's fart, but if you are using a weighted mean by the absolute iso ratings then my list is being considered upside down! ;D (or is it?)
No, if you have a negative level, I assume a level of 0.
Is it weighted purely by multiplying by the iso rating (so that someone with a rating of, say, 200 has twice the influence of someone with a rating of 100)?
Wow! We both put Urchin at 1.
Why is amulet above bonfire? Their main purpose is to trash cards but bonfire is super-duper fast wich is better than being able to trash estates.
I don't really get Urchin at #3. It's pretty nice (I have it at #11), but it's not that good imo.
Urchin itself is a weak attack and a cantrip, nothing too special. If you ever buy it, it's because you want a Mercenary, a card that looks ridiculous at first glance - trash 2 cards, +$2, +2 cards, AND a Militia to boot. However, best case scenario, if your two opening Urchins collide on T3/T4, you can only start using Mercenary after the second shuffle. If they don't collide, you need to wait ANOTHER shuffle AND probably need to invest in another relatively useless Urchin. By that time, you should have been busy trashing with an early-game trasher if available, or just building in general.
Then when you finally have the (admittedly) very strong Mercenary, you can start abusing it, right? True, but you will likely run out of Mercenary food quickly, especially if you decide to go for more than one. And if you can't trash two cards, all of the other abilities will stop working as well... so you either have to sacrifice good cards, buy a lot of Copper (and get lucky enough to make it line up with the Mercenary), or stop using the Mercenary altogether.
Out of curiosity, what would people rank Chapel if it cost $3 instead of $2?
Also, Steward and Amulet should be right next to each other. They're both very strong and fulfill very similar roles.Not necessarily. Steward is significantly better in engines. Amulet misses a lot more shuffles, so the trashing and coin from Stewart is better. And the cards from Steward are much better than Amulet's Silver gaining in an engine. On the flip side, Amulet is significantly better for big money and slogs. Amulet's Silver gaining is great and selective trashing is better than fast trashing. It could be that these advantages and disadvantages cancel out and they are similarly valuable/impactful, but that isn't necessarily the case.
Also, Steward and Amulet should be right next to each other. They're both very strong and fulfill very similar roles.
I would put at top (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) cardOut of curiosity, what would people rank Chapel if it cost $3 instead of $2?
that's a nice question. it's below ambassador/masquerade for sure. those are my top two and i'd put chapel at 3.
I would put at top (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) cardOut of curiosity, what would people rank Chapel if it cost $3 instead of $2?
that's a nice question. it's below ambassador/masquerade for sure. those are my top two and i'd put chapel at 3.
4 is greater than 2 by 2 shuffles (about 2-4 turns). So unless the versatility can make up for those less productive shuffles (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) chapel > stewardI would put at top (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) cardOut of curiosity, what would people rank Chapel if it cost $3 instead of $2?
that's a nice question. it's below ambassador/masquerade for sure. those are my top two and i'd put chapel at 3.
While Steward can only trash up to 2 instead of up to 4, doesn't its versatility make it better than Chapel in many cases? I rank Steward at #3 after Masq and Amb, and so I'd have trouble ranking Chapel above #4.
I don't think Chapel would be the best $3 card.
I don't really get Urchin at #3. It's pretty nice (I have it at #11), but it's not that good imo.
...
So all in all, Mercenary is very powerful, but there are a lot of factors that balance it out. In my opinion Urchin is nowhere near the leagues of Ambassador or Masquerade.
Getting rid of the "Mercenary food" is the entire purpose of the card. The faster you run out of it, the better.
Even if you assume that the trashing abilities of the two cards are roughly equal (which I believe Steward's is much stronger overall, but obvs. it depends on the board and there was not full agreement, which is too bad because I'm very sure I'm right about this), drawing cards is way better than gaining a silver on much more than 55% of all boards. <3 <3 <3 Steward ily <3 <3 <3
Getting rid of the "Mercenary food" is the entire purpose of the card. The faster you run out of it, the better.
If trashing is all you care about (which is plausible), shouldn't you prefer another cheap trasher with a lower opportunity cost? Like, one of the two cards we're discussing below?
i've been realizing more and more that "thinning is winning" isn't quite right
junk dealer (clearly the best $5 trasher and thus one of the absolute best period)
#33 Caravan Guard (I have it on #42):
What? While not having much experience with it, I feel this card is very weak. It doesn't do anything this turn and just gives some $1 next turn. Or you have to have it in hand when being attacked, and then you get $1? Does that help? I guess in games with permanent attacks it can be nice to have some Caravan Guards, but I assume I'd prefer something else for $3 most of the time. For example Great Hall, which at least gives 1VP.
#33 Caravan Guard (I have it on #42):
What? While not having much experience with it, I feel this card is very weak. It doesn't do anything this turn and just gives some $1 next turn. Or you have to have it in hand when being attacked, and then you get $1? Does that help? I guess in games with permanent attacks it can be nice to have some Caravan Guards, but I assume I'd prefer something else for $3 most of the time. For example Great Hall, which at least gives 1VP.
#23 Lookout (I have it on #36):
I don't see why Lookout gained some ranks. I feel it is a slow trasher that sometimes doesn't hit at all and becomes weaker and weaker in the course of a game.
#13 Black Market (I have it on #22):
While actually enjoying Black Market games a lot, I think it's skippable quite often. If there's already a viable engine, one doesn't need BM. And if not, BM rarely makes an engine viable.
It consistently fails the Silver test in almost every situation, its reaction part is almost useless, and it generally makes you wonder why you ever bothered to pick it up. The only reason to buy it is if you really want cheap cantrips for some reason, in which case I'd prefer Vagrant or even Pearl Diver, because they're both cheaper, or indeed Great Hall, because of the VP.
#13 Black Market (I have it on #22):
While actually enjoying Black Market games a lot, I think it's skippable quite often. If there's already a viable engine, one doesn't need BM. And if not, BM rarely makes an engine viable.
Only play Black Market in an engine. Fortunately an engine is almost always viable with Black Market on the board.
[...]
0, 1 or 2
[...] Your initial plan should be to play with 1 Black Market. Exceptions arise when you can't significantly get the frequency up (no trashing, no village+draw) or when the Black Market contains some cheap bombs. I estimate 10% for 0, 60% for 1 and 30% for 2 early copies.
1.) Masquerade [X]
2.) Ambassador [X]
3.) Urchin [X]
4.) Swindler [X]
5.) Black Market [X]
6.) Forager [X]
7.) Steward [X]
8.) Amulet [X]
9.) Menagerie [X]
10.) Hermit [X]
#36 Sage (I have it on #27):Sage I hate sage with a passion! Like 90% of the time I wish it was something else (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) or less. It would rather be a silver in slogs and big money. In a engine there is probably something better than it. In a rush it sucks. As an opener you should probably be buying something else instead of wasting your time on a sifting cantrip.
While Sage often doesn't do much in the middle and late game, it can be huge as opener to see your $4 card faster. For me it's a solid card and not as bad as others seem to see it.
#33 Caravan Guard (I have it on #42):
What? While not having much experience with it, I feel this card is very weak. It doesn't do anything this turn and just gives some $1 next turn. Or you have to have it in hand when being attacked, and then you get $1? Does that help? I guess in games with permanent attacks it can be nice to have some Caravan Guards, but I assume I'd prefer something else for $3 most of the time. For example Great Hall, which at least gives 1VP.
#23 Lookout (I have it on #36):
I don't see why Lookout gained some ranks. I feel it is a slow trasher that sometimes doesn't hit at all and becomes weaker and weaker in the course of a game.
#13 Black Market (I have it on #22):
While actually enjoying Black Market games a lot, I think it's skippable quite often. If there's already a viable engine, one doesn't need BM. And if not, BM rarely makes an engine viable.
#33 Caravan Guard (I have it on #42):
What? While not having much experience with it, I feel this card is very weak. It doesn't do anything this turn and just gives some $1 next turn. Or you have to have it in hand when being attacked, and then you get $1? Does that help? I guess in games with permanent attacks it can be nice to have some Caravan Guards, but I assume I'd prefer something else for $3 most of the time. For example Great Hall, which at least gives 1VP.
1VP is literally nothing. $1 can be the difference between getting a Mountebank or a Silver.
Got your point. But often it fails horribly trying to remove the last junk cards from your deck, because you draw them before Lookout and have no way to discard them. So at least it's not as flexible as Forager or even Masquerade.#23 Lookout (I have it on #36):
I don't see why Lookout gained some ranks. I feel it is a slow trasher that sometimes doesn't hit at all and becomes weaker and weaker in the course of a game.
It is a relatively fast trasher. It's non-terminal and cycles 2 cards. That's faster than some even very highly ranked cards such as Masquerade and Forager. It's also incredibly common to overestimate how much of a problem it is that you don't get to see what cards you're trashing before you commit to trashing something; unless you're forced to play it with e.g. Herald, you can just wait until you know for sure that there's a junk card in the top 3 as long as you pay attention to it, and this doesn't even slow you down too much.
#13 Black Market (I have it on #22):
While actually enjoying Black Market games a lot, I think it's skippable quite often. If there's already a viable engine, one doesn't need BM. And if not, BM rarely makes an engine viable.
If there's a viable engine, Black Market is quite likely the best payload you can possibly get for it. Even if there is already a better payload card in the kingdom, such as Bridge, Black Market is still sometimes worth using in combination with it.
BM enables quite a number of engines that otherwise wouldn't be possible, and all but the most powerful engine is made stronger by the inclusion of Black Market, enabling as it does the mid-turn gaining of exclusive cards.
Fwiw, this is my top 10:Code: [Select]1.) Masquerade [X]
2.) Ambassador [X]
3.) Urchin [X]
4.) Swindler [X]
5.) Black Market [X]
6.) Forager [X]
7.) Steward [X]
8.) Amulet [X]
9.) Menagerie [X]
10.) Hermit [X]
And yes, everything that's alive in me was screaming in agony when I put the card on position four above the one on five.
1.) Masquerade [X]
2.) Ambassador [X]
3.) Fishing Village [X]
4.) Urchin [X]
5.) Steward [X]
6.) Swindler [X]
7.) Forager [X]
8.) Hermit [X]
9.) Amulet [X]
10.) Gear [X]
Hum, I always thought Mountebank costs $5. ;) I agree that 1VP doesn't make much difference very often. But having one Caravan Guard won't do much difference either. I assume you need some more to get a noticeable effect. In that case, you could also have bought some Great Halls, and I think 3-4 VP can make a difference.
Got your point. But often it fails horribly trying to remove the last junk cards from your deck, because you draw them before Lookout and have no way to discard them. So at least it's not as flexible as Forager or even Masquerade.
So you're relying on BM to get some decent payload? What if you don't get the payload you want? Then you've played some turns using a terminal Silver as your payload.
1.) Ambassador [X]
2.) Masquerade [X]
3.) Urchin [X]
4.) Swindler [X]
5.) Fishing Village [X]
6.) Steward [X]
7.) Forager [X]
8.) Menagerie [X]
9.) Watchtower [X]
10.) Hermit [X]
Why all the hate on Caravan Guard? You guys all like Fishing Village, right? And Lighthouse? I know they do other things, but the coin on your next turn is certainly nice. Play three CG's and next turn a hand of 5 Coppers gives you a Province. Sure, that (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) is slower than a Peddler or Oasis, but as soon as someone drops an Attack, particularly an innocuous one like Spy or Fortune Teller, all your CGs in hand (and any you end up drawing along the way) turn into normal Peddlers. It's the cantrip that does not make you regret having a cantrip in hand when someone plays a handsize attack.
wow i was lower on swindler and higher on forager than yall. not that much in either case but it seems practically universal
all my top five were trashers but i can def see where that would be a tad silly
I uploaded a new picture for Workshop to the wiki, and now for some reason the picture is no longer showing up in the list here...
I uploaded a new picture for Workshop to the wiki, and now for some reason the picture is no longer showing up in the list here...
It's still showing for me.
Lately I've been playing a lot of games with Loan (by coincidence) and I've found that it is super underrated. Trashing a Copper with Loan is roughly as strong/possibly even stronger than trashing a Copper with a Junk Dealer.
Lately I've been playing a lot of games with Loan (by coincidence) and I've found that it is super underrated. Trashing a Copper with Loan is roughly as strong/possibly even stronger than trashing a Copper with a Junk Dealer.
Yes but how often do you actually hit copper? It is great when you don't super need to hit $5 and you don't want any money as payload.
Lately I've been playing a lot of games with Loan (by coincidence) and I've found that it is super underrated. Trashing a Copper with Loan is roughly as strong/possibly even stronger than trashing a Copper with a Junk Dealer.
Lately I've been playing a lot of games with Loan (by coincidence) and I've found that it is super underrated. Trashing a Copper with Loan is roughly as strong/possibly even stronger than trashing a Copper with a Junk Dealer.
No.
1. Loan often 'conveniently' skips all of your $5 costs.
2. If you ever use even one Treasure that is not Copper, your Loan will inevitably hit that one Treasure.
3. You have no control over what is trashed.
4. Loan becomes a liability later on, when you need one extra coin, but it triggers a bad shuffle as a result.
Loan is awful. If you have to get it, you have to get it, but that doesn't mean it is good. I'd rather wait until hitting $5 to get JD than just get Loan.
Loan, up there with Forager? Look, you're a great player, and I respect your opinion, but I think you're 100% wrong in this instance. I just don't see it.
Loan, up there with Forager? Look, you're a great player, and I respect your opinion, but I think you're 100% wrong in this instance. I just don't see it.
I'd buy it over Forager in some cases. I actually just did that today.
I'm aware that I'm challenging conventional wisdom here. I'm doing it for a good reason. It's not easy to see why Loan is as good as it is, because it tends to feel pretty bad when you hit something you don't want to trash, but if you just look at the raw numbers, it's just super good.
Loan, up there with Forager? Look, you're a great player, and I respect your opinion, but I think you're 100% wrong in this instance. I just don't see it.He has some good points at least. He's 90%-93% right.
Awaclus is mostly right.And once you trash a copper with loan, all your foragers give +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png).
Loan's only problem is it can't trash estates and it can't trash with nothing in your discard.
Hitting a good treasure basically means you cycled x amount of cards where one is a good treasure.
Forager/loan is better than forager/forager in 90-93% of the time and sometimes loan loan is better than both of those.
Forager trashes one card <- Loan trashes one treasure
Forager doesn't cycle -> loan cycles at least one card
Forager is more likely to trash a bad card(has to have one in hand) <- loan is less likely to trash a card(Has to hit a bad treasure)
Forager usually gives a net coin of 0 to -1 -> Loan always gives a net coin of 1
Forager usually gives a net coin of 0 to -1 -> Loan always gives a net coin of 1
I remember one game where I used Loan with Masquerade in a Cultist game. It was quite effective there I think.
So yeah Loan is good with terminal draw, say like Courtyard.
I've actually been growing to like Loan a lot more lately, in games where trashing is limited and I want my Coppers gone as soon as possible. Sometimes I even buy 2. It's nice early on in games with weak engines that also have Colony there and you're like "goddamnit I have to make this work".jack and loan seem anti synergistic.
The main trick to using it well is, buy as few other Treasure as possible as long as you can stand it. It's best opened without a Silver - think like Hermit / Loan or Jack / Loan or whatever.
Forager is, like, clearly better, because of the +Buy mostly, but I guess I understand why people don't like it sometimes? But it's an important Trasher.
I've actually been growing to like Loan a lot more lately, in games where trashing is limited and I want my Coppers gone as soon as possible. Sometimes I even buy 2. It's nice early on in games with weak engines that also have Colony there and you're like "goddamnit I have to make this work".jack and loan seem anti synergistic.
The main trick to using it well is, buy as few other Treasure as possible as long as you can stand it. It's best opened without a Silver - think like Hermit / Loan or Jack / Loan or whatever.
Forager is, like, clearly better, because of the +Buy mostly, but I guess I understand why people don't like it sometimes? But it's an important Trasher.
Forager's + buy isn't that important.
I think gkrieg13 put it best: It's great when spiking $5 early isn't important, and you don't want any Treasures (and you don't plan on getting any later). This is pretty rare, which is maybe why people rank it low, but it happens.