Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: convolucid on October 29, 2015, 06:53:53 pm
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In a previous post I offhandedly threw out a duration that is terminal this turn, but gives +actions next turn. It's an interesting concept in its own right, so I shortlisted this simple version:
District
+2 Cards
At the beginning of your next turn, +2 Actions
$5 Action - Duration
We played this in 3 player with the following kingdom (random - District replaced Rebuild):
Shelters
Amulet, Chancellor, Scheme
Bureaucrat, Conspirator, Rats
Bandit Camp, Catacombs, District, Storyteller
As you can see, it was a strong engine deck without +buy or attacks, so things were pretty straightforward. I bought mostly District at $5, after starting with one Bandit Camp for reliability. My dad ignored District and went traditional Catacombs + Bandit Camp. My fiance went Rats and was a non-factor, haha. I won, mostly on account of greening on the correct turn.
The presence of another village (+Necropolis) and Scheme made this a very mild test for District. I was never pinched into playing it terminally, and I would say I had some good luck too. It would be interesting to try in a kingdom with lower reliability.
What do you think?
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In a previous post I offhandedly threw out a duration that is terminal this turn, but gives +actions next turn. It's an interesting concept in its own right, so I shortlisted this simple version:
District
+2 Cards
At the beginning of your next turn, +2 Actions
$5 Action - Duration
We played this in 3 player with the following kingdom (random - District replaced Rebuild):
Shelters
Amulet, Chancellor, Scheme
Bureaucrat, Conspirator, Rats
Bandit Camp, Catacombs, District, Storyteller
As you can see, it was a strong engine deck without +buy or attacks, so things were pretty straightforward. I bought mostly District at $5, after starting with one Bandit Camp for reliability. My dad ignored District and went traditional Catacombs + Bandit Camp. My fiance went Rats and was a non-factor, haha. I won, mostly on account of greening on the correct turn.
The presence of another village (+Necropolis) and Scheme made this a very mild test for District. I was never pinched into playing it terminally, and I would say I had some good luck too. It would be interesting to try in a kingdom with lower reliability.
What do you think?
I think that it would be more interesting if you gave switched the timing on the +2 Actions and the +2 Cards. +2 Actions is very weak, and getting a bonus next turn is worse than getting it now. So as it is now, it's pretty weak.
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I think it is probably weak. The main point of comparison here is obviously Wharf (which is crazy good). Your card is much much worse than it since it gives a worse benefit both this and next turn, at the same price. Giving it +3 cards might help it, but then it sort of becomes an almost-all-in-one engine enabler, potentially making or breaking most games by how it splits.
I think as written is best priced at four, and still arguably worse than Caravan.
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A card can be much, much worse than Wharf, and still be in the top 50% of all cards in the game.
Don't use a god tier card to try to figure out whether a card is balanced. That'll only help you figure out whether the card is God Tier.
Is there a more balanced 5$ terminal that gives you 2 of a bonus this turn and 2 of a bonus next turn, oh, duh, there is, Merchant Ship. +2 cards > +2$. +2 Actions < +2$. Checks out that the card should be fine.
The card breaks the game at 4$.
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+2 cards > +2$. +2 Actions < +2$.
That's not how it works though.
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A card can be much, much worse than Wharf, and still be in the top 50% of all cards in the game.
Don't use a god tier card to try to figure out whether a card is balanced. That'll only help you figure out whether the card is God Tier.
Is there a more balanced 5$ terminal that gives you 2 of a bonus this turn and 2 of a bonus next turn, oh, duh, there is, Merchant Ship. +2 cards > +2$. +2 Actions < +2$. Checks out that the card should be fine.
The card breaks the game at 4$.
I think it's weak only because of which turns you get the bonuses.
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Actually I think Laboratory (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Laboratory) is a good comparison. The thing is, +2 actions at the start of next turn is a lot like +1 actions at the start of next turn, since a third available action isn't worth nearly as much as a second available action. So it's like a Lab where one of the bonuses is moved to next turn instead of current turn. Basically, a Caravan (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Caravan). I'd probably test at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png) first, then maybe (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) if it's too strong.
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+2 cards > +2$. +2 Actions < +2$.
That's not how it works though.
Then chastise him first. "It's worse than Wharf because it gives a worse benefit both this turn and next turn."
Be consistent.
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+2 cards > +2$. +2 Actions < +2$.
That's not how it works though.
Then chastise him first. "It's worse than Wharf because it gives a worse benefit both this turn and next turn."
Be consistent.
Well, I compared two cards with similar in-game roles (making hands bigger without being terminal all the time). But District is actually a village, and I should probably have compared it to villages, rather than terminal draw.
Merchant ship is a strictly payload card, and it shares with them only the "free play" on turn 2.
So I think my comparison was more fair, keeping in mind that Wharf is a god card. That's why I said "much much weaker" - being weaker tha Wharf is desirable, but this is as near stricly inferior as you get without strictly being strictly inferior).
Turn one: You play Wharf, I play District. You get a +Buy, I don't. But let's ignore the +buy now since that's a lot of what makes Wharf such a power card.
Turn two: You get 7 cards, 1 action. I get 5 cards, 3 actions. To get to the same place where you are now, I have to play 2 Districts. So District has (of course) strictly inferior drawing power.
But it's also a village! Problem is, it is worse than most villages out there, simply because I have to buy twice as many, and get a very unreliable engine out of them.
If I'm driving an engine, I'll probably want to play a fixed number of Districts per turn, +/-1.
After I've duration'd one, and played one, I'll be at +2 actions, +1 cards, the same as an activaded city, or lost city, but this is only if I manage to connect them. If I am so unlucky as to skip a connection one turn, then I'll have to start up again my engine one or two districts at a time, since I'll be left with no extra actions next turn.
So, I think it's an interesting card, but I personally would price it at 4.
The comparison with non terminal draw is also interesting, and also leads me to want to price it like that.
Please chastise me if you want, but I'd be the first one to be chastised in this thread. ;)
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Then chastise him first. "It's worse than Wharf because it gives a worse benefit both this turn and next turn."
Be consistent.
But that's right. +2 cards, +1 buy is objectively better than +2 cards, and extra cards at the start of your turn are generally more powerful than extra actions at the start of your turn. +2 cards on a terminal Action might or might not be better than +$2 on a terminal Action, and extra actions at the start of your turn are generally more powerful than extra coins at the start of your turn.
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The card is like a Moat sans defense ability now and two Villages or a Crossroads sans card draw on the second turn. Sounds pretty bad to me compared to Fishing village which is a Peddler and a Village (or a Bazaar) on the second turn.
I think that situations in which you want 3 actions (instead of just 2) at the beginning of your turn are rare.
This is why I think that it would be better (read: make the card better) to switch the bonuses around. Now a Necro and later two Labs sounds pretty smooth to me.
On the other hand there is a nice self-synergy: if you have enough Districts they become quasi Lost Cities. This self-synergy is obviously stronger if you have the extra cards in the first turn (as you direly want the extra actions from preciously played Districts).
No matter which version you pick, I'd playtest them at 4. As other people have already mentioned, Wharf or Village or any other super-strong official Duration card should not be the benchmark though and if it turns out to be too strong for 4 you can still make it a weak 5.
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The card is like a Moat sans defense ability now and two Villages or a Crossroads sans card draw on the second turn. Sounds pretty bad to me compared to Fishing village which is a Peddler and a Village (or a Bazaar) on the second turn.
I think that situations in which you want 3 actions (instead of just 2) at the beginning of your turn are rare.
This is why I think that it would be better (read: make the card better) to switch the bonuses around. Now a Necro and later two Labs sounds pretty smooth to me.
On the other hand there is a nice self-synergy: if you have enough Districts they become quasi Lost Cities. This self-synergy is obviously stronger if you have the extra cards in the first turn (as you direly want the extra actions from preciously played Districts).
No matter which version you pick, I'd playtest them at 4. As other people have already mentioned, Wharf or Village or any other super-strong official Duration card should not be the benchmark though and if it turns out to be too strong for 4 you can still make it a weak 5.
I think that if it gave 2 Actions now and 2 cards at the start of your turn, it would be quite a powerful $5-cost card. It would be extremely easy to chain them together, unlike Wharf, and they wouldn't be much worse than a Wharf the second turn. I think it would be about the same strength as Wharf, maybe even stronger.
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Actions now, Cards later is boring, it's too automatic. Cards now, actions later combines the uncertainty of terminal draw with the flexibility of engines, that makes it interesting. Villages, labs, and terminal draw are all very saturated in terms of design space, so you gotta do something spicy if you're only working with these two vanilla bonuses.
I think 4 is cheap for this version, although I see the arguments. Personally I compared District to Lost City, considering the loss of reliability to be approximately equal to Lost City's penalty (imo $4->$5 is a bigger leap than $5->$5+Lost City Penalty)
If I was gonna try another version, I would try +3 Cards, next turn +1 Action. Even that is probably a little too automatic, just load up on this Lab-variant + a good payload and away you go.
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Actions now, Cards later is boring, it's too automatic. Cards now, actions later combines the uncertainty of terminal draw with the flexibility of engines, that makes it interesting. Villages, labs, and terminal draw are all very saturated in terms of design space, so you gotta do something spicy if you're only working with these two vanilla bonuses.
I think 4 is cheap for this version, although I see the arguments. Personally I compared District to Lost City, considering the loss of reliability to be approximately equal to Lost City's penalty (imo $4->$5 is a bigger leap than $5->$5+Lost City Penalty)
If I was gonna try another version, I would try +3 Cards, next turn +1 Action. Even that is probably a little too automatic, just load up on this Lab-variant + a good payload and away you go.
If you really want this to cost $5, I would make it +3 Cards now and +1 Action next turn. +2 Cards now and +2 Actions next turn is a $4 cost, IMO.
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Actions now, Cards later is boring, it's too automatic. Cards now, actions later combines the uncertainty of terminal draw with the flexibility of engines, that makes it interesting. Villages, labs, and terminal draw are all very saturated in terms of design space, so you gotta do something spicy if you're only working with these two vanilla bonuses.
I do not disagree that actions now and cards later is an easier, more familiar and more boring card. But it is also a stronger one than yours which is probably balanced at 4. As I already said, the benefit of an additional action for the second turn is far larger than the benefit of getting a third action. The duration effect is probably weaker than that of Fishing Village (if you buy some Fishing Villages you can safely buy quite some terminal draws whereas District either needs a lot of itself or some terminal draws AND some villages for support).
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I too think this might be a $4. Caravan is a cantrip now and a Lab later (as it increases handsize by one snd has your action count stay the same). This is a Moat now and a Supervillage (+1 card, +3 Actions) later. It's more useful (and risky) this turn than Caravan, and i don't know homwmuch Supervillage would be worth on its own, but it's unlikely to be better than Lab, i think. So both halves seem about equally strong, and the first turn requires more strategy than Caravan - it might be okay. Only problem(?) could be that in absence of other Villages it might be wise to just get as many of these as possible to reduce the risk of actions running out. Other than that, i like how this both takes up terminal space and creates it. Unique and simple.
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I too think this might be a $4. Caravan is a cantrip now and a Lab later (as it increases handsize by one snd has your action count stay the same). This is a Moat now and a Supervillage (+1 card, +3 Actions) later. It's more useful (and risky) this turn than Caravan, and i don't know homwmuch Supervillage would be worth on its own, but it's unlikely to be better than Lab, i think. So both halves seem about equally strong, and the first turn requires more strategy than Caravan - it might be okay. Only problem(?) could be that in absence of other Villages it might be wise to just get as many of these as possible to reduce the risk of actions running out. Other than that, i like how this both takes up terminal space and creates it. Unique and simple.
Supervillage is approximately equal to Port, so it should be worth $4.
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Would "now and at the start of your next turn: +1 Card, +1 Action" be interesting? It makes the card a useless cantrip this turn, but gives you a great start next turn.
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Would "now and at the start of your next turn: +1 Card, +1 Action" be interesting? It makes the card a useless cantrip this turn, but gives you a great start next turn.
I think that it is too similar to Caravan to be worth the spot. Granted, it's a village, but at 5 and being a duration means you'll have a hard time building engines with it.