# Dominion Strategy Forum

## Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: Gubump on October 23, 2015, 10:24:54 pm

Title: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: Gubump on October 23, 2015, 10:24:54 pm
Version 4:
\$1
At the start of your next turn, +1 Card then discard two cards.
Cost: \$2
Treasure - Duration

Notes: Version 3 was changed to version 4 due to being way too strong for just \$2.

(2nd Overhaul) Version 3:
\$1
Put this on your Tavern mat.

At the start of your turn, you may call this to draw a card then discard two cards.
Cost: \$2
Treasure - Reserve

Note: Drawing a card is usually significantly more powerful than +\$, especially since this doesn't take an Action to do so. That's why it makes you discard two cards.

(Post-Overhaul) Version 2:
\$1
Put this on your Tavern mat.

At the start of your buy phase, you may call this. If you do, +\$1.
Cost: \$2
Treasure - Reserve

Note: Considering adding +1 Buy to either when you play, when you call it, or both.

(Pre-Overhaul) Version 1:
\$1

Once, at the start of your turn, you may set aside any number of Pennies from your hand. Set aside an equal number of cards from the top of your deck. Put one of the set aside cards into your hand per Penny you set aside, and discard the rest.
Cost: \$2
Treasure - Reaction

Note: Based on market squire's wording suggestion.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: LastFootnote on October 23, 2015, 11:04:40 pm
I still don't understand how this is supposed to work. When does the other set-aside card return to your deck?
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: scott_pilgrim on October 23, 2015, 11:44:39 pm
I still don't understand how this is supposed to work. When does the other set-aside card return to your deck?

I'm not sure how you think it works...One of them gets discarded and the other goes into your hand.  So they both go back into your deck eventually.

It should probably be a Reaction, but otherwise I think the wording is pretty clear, except for the fact that you can do it as many times as you want to find any card in your deck, which I think is what Gubump wants help with.  I'm not sure there's a clean way to fix it.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: Gubump on October 24, 2015, 12:20:55 am
I still don't understand how this is supposed to work. When does the other set-aside card return to your deck?

I'm not sure how you think it works...One of them gets discarded and the other goes into your hand.  So they both go back into your deck eventually.

It should probably be a Reaction, but otherwise I think the wording is pretty clear, except for the fact that you can do it as many times as you want to find any card in your deck, which I think is what Gubump wants help with.  I'm not sure there's a clean way to fix it.

You are correct in everything you've said. And as for it being a Reaction, I meant to make it one, I just left that out by accident.

I think I've come up with a clear wording:

Penny:
\$1
--------------------------------------------
At the start of your turn, you may reveal this, if you do, reveal the top card of your deck.
At the start of your turn, you may discard this from your hand, if you do, +1 Card.
Cost: \$2
Treasure - Reaction
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: market squire on October 24, 2015, 07:50:16 am
My intention is that you set aside all copies of Penny that you wish to set aside at once, along with one card from the top of your deck per Penny.
If you want to reveal all Pennys at the same time, it should be something like:

Penny:
\$1

Once at the start of your turn, you may reveal any number of Pennys from your hand. Reveal the same number of cards from the top of your deck. Put the same number of cards into your hand. Discard the rest.
Cost: \$2
Treasure - Reaction
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: Haddock on October 24, 2015, 08:12:25 am
The original wording and the new wording definitely do two different things, but I suspect the new wording is the one you want.  The original wording could sift through your deck to find an arbitrary card, per copy of penny.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: Gubump on October 24, 2015, 08:23:23 am
My intention is that you set aside all copies of Penny that you wish to set aside at once, along with one card from the top of your deck per Penny.
If you want to reveal all Pennys at the same time, it should be something like:

Penny:
\$1

Once at the start of your turn, you may reveal any number of Pennys from your hand. Reveal the same number of cards from the top of your deck. Put the same number of cards into your hand. Discard the rest.
Cost: \$2
Treasure - Reaction

I think I'll use that one.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: eHalcyon on October 24, 2015, 12:40:59 pm
What's the point of this card though?  I don't think I'd ever buy it for its effect.  Its best use case seems to be sifting junk from the top of your deck, in which case you get a Copper in hand instead (the penny which you keep), but that's probably a weaker effect than Secret Chamber's discard for coin.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: Gubump on October 24, 2015, 04:14:41 pm
What's the point of this card though?  I don't think I'd ever buy it for its effect.  Its best use case seems to be sifting junk from the top of your deck, in which case you get a Copper in hand instead (the penny which you keep), but that's probably a weaker effect than Secret Chamber's discard for coin.

I guess I could make it so that you set aside two top-deck cards for each Penny. Would that fix the problem, or would that make it too strong (for 2)? If that makes it too strong, I might just overhaul it, because I really want it to be a \$2-cost card.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: LastFootnote on October 24, 2015, 04:40:45 pm
I can't think of a compelling reason that this should be a weird Treasure-Reaction rather than just an Action. "Look at the top card of your deck and choose one: put it into your hand; or +\$1 and discard it." And at that point it's sort of just a weak Oasis?

Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: Gubump on October 24, 2015, 04:53:07 pm
I can't think of a compelling reason that this should be a weird Treasure-Reaction rather than just an Action. "Look at the top card of your deck and choose one: put it into your hand; or +\$1 and discard it." And at that point it's sort of just a weak Oasis?

Yeah, I didn't think of this very well. I'm going to just completely overhaul it.

EDIT: Completely overhauled Penny. The only thing it kept is the fact that it is still a Treasure that gives \$1.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: eHalcyon on October 24, 2015, 09:23:56 pm
New (Post-Overhaul) Version:
\$1
Put this on your Tavern mat.

At the start of your buy phase, you may call this. If you do, +\$1.
Cost: \$2
Treasure - Reserve

Though there are some differences, this is mostly just a much weaker version of Candlestick Maker.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: GendoIkari on October 24, 2015, 11:56:00 pm
New (Post-Overhaul) Version:
\$1
Put this on your Tavern mat.

At the start of your buy phase, you may call this. If you do, +\$1.
Cost: \$2
Treasure - Reserve

Though there are some differences, this is mostly just a much weaker version of Candlestick Maker.

Looks more like Lighthouse to me... if you call it the very next turn, which will often be what you want; then it's almost exactly a Lighthouse without the attack protection. Instead of attack protection, you get flexibility to get the second (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) whenever you need it, and the advantage of not being able to draw it dead.

Interestingly, if you play this with a Black Market, then it's often just a cheaper Silver (if you don't need the money to buy from the black market deck).
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: LastFootnote on October 25, 2015, 12:23:03 am
For what it's worth, the reason Adventures doesn't have this Reserve effect is that it's so close to Coin tokens.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: Gubump on October 25, 2015, 12:25:21 am
New (Post-Overhaul) Version:
\$1
Put this on your Tavern mat.

At the start of your buy phase, you may call this. If you do, +\$1.
Cost: \$2
Treasure - Reserve

Though there are some differences, this is mostly just a much weaker version of Candlestick Maker.

Looks more like Lighthouse to me... if you call it the very next turn, which will often be what you want; then it's almost exactly a Lighthouse without the attack protection. Instead of attack protection, you get flexibility to get the second (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) whenever you need it, and the advantage of not being able to draw it dead.

Interestingly, if you play this with a Black Market, then it's often just a cheaper Silver (if you don't need the money to buy from the black market deck).

So do you think that the extra flexibility without the attack protection is worth it?
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: GendoIkari on October 25, 2015, 11:15:50 am
New (Post-Overhaul) Version:
\$1
Put this on your Tavern mat.

At the start of your buy phase, you may call this. If you do, +\$1.
Cost: \$2
Treasure - Reserve

Though there are some differences, this is mostly just a much weaker version of Candlestick Maker.

Looks more like Lighthouse to me... if you call it the very next turn, which will often be what you want; then it's almost exactly a Lighthouse without the attack protection. Instead of attack protection, you get flexibility to get the second (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) whenever you need it, and the advantage of not being able to draw it dead.

Interestingly, if you play this with a Black Market, then it's often just a cheaper Silver (if you don't need the money to buy from the black market deck).

So do you think that the extra flexibility without the attack protection is worth it?

It will be weaker than Lighthouse, but Lighthouse is pretty strong, so yes.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: Gubump on October 25, 2015, 11:20:59 am
New (Post-Overhaul) Version:
\$1
Put this on your Tavern mat.

At the start of your buy phase, you may call this. If you do, +\$1.
Cost: \$2
Treasure - Reserve

Though there are some differences, this is mostly just a much weaker version of Candlestick Maker.

Looks more like Lighthouse to me... if you call it the very next turn, which will often be what you want; then it's almost exactly a Lighthouse without the attack protection. Instead of attack protection, you get flexibility to get the second (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) whenever you need it, and the advantage of not being able to draw it dead.

Interestingly, if you play this with a Black Market, then it's often just a cheaper Silver (if you don't need the money to buy from the black market deck).

So do you think that the extra flexibility without the attack protection is worth it?

It will be weaker than Lighthouse, but Lighthouse is pretty strong, so yes.

Actually, now that I've thought about that some more, I think that Penny might be too strong, because it is strictly stronger than Lighthouse in the absence of Attack cards.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: Gubump on October 25, 2015, 11:26:00 am
For what it's worth, the reason Adventures doesn't have this Reserve effect is that it's so close to Coin tokens.

Overhauled Penny for the 2nd (and hopefully last) time. Yeah, I guess I didn't think this through very well.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: Awaclus on October 25, 2015, 11:26:11 am
New (Post-Overhaul) Version:
\$1
Put this on your Tavern mat.

At the start of your buy phase, you may call this. If you do, +\$1.
Cost: \$2
Treasure - Reserve

Though there are some differences, this is mostly just a much weaker version of Candlestick Maker.

Looks more like Lighthouse to me... if you call it the very next turn, which will often be what you want; then it's almost exactly a Lighthouse without the attack protection. Instead of attack protection, you get flexibility to get the second (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) whenever you need it, and the advantage of not being able to draw it dead.

Interestingly, if you play this with a Black Market, then it's often just a cheaper Silver (if you don't need the money to buy from the black market deck).

So do you think that the extra flexibility without the attack protection is worth it?

It will be weaker than Lighthouse, but Lighthouse is pretty strong, so yes.

Actually, now that I've thought about that some more, I think that Penny might be too strong, because it is strictly stronger than Lighthouse in the absence of Attack cards.

Lighthouse in the absence of Attack cards isn't very strong, so that's fine.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: Gubump on October 25, 2015, 11:37:50 am
New (Post-Overhaul) Version:
\$1
Put this on your Tavern mat.

At the start of your buy phase, you may call this. If you do, +\$1.
Cost: \$2
Treasure - Reserve

Though there are some differences, this is mostly just a much weaker version of Candlestick Maker.

Looks more like Lighthouse to me... if you call it the very next turn, which will often be what you want; then it's almost exactly a Lighthouse without the attack protection. Instead of attack protection, you get flexibility to get the second (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) whenever you need it, and the advantage of not being able to draw it dead.

Interestingly, if you play this with a Black Market, then it's often just a cheaper Silver (if you don't need the money to buy from the black market deck).

So do you think that the extra flexibility without the attack protection is worth it?

It will be weaker than Lighthouse, but Lighthouse is pretty strong, so yes.

Actually, now that I've thought about that some more, I think that Penny might be too strong, because it is strictly stronger than Lighthouse in the absence of Attack cards.

Lighthouse in the absence of Attack cards isn't very strong, so that's fine.

That may be true, but as LFN said, it's too similar to Coin tokens.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: GendoIkari on October 28, 2015, 11:03:50 am
Also, I don't think you can ever say that a treasure breaks the strictly better rule because of an action, or vice-versa. Yes treasures as a general rule are stronger, because they can't be drawn dead. But they also become weaker in a pretty big number of edge cases, so you can't ever say one is strictly better than the other. A few times when you might wish your treasure were an action:

Throne Room
King's Court
Procession
Disciple
Tactician
Scrying Pool
Golem
Watchtower
Library
Graverobber

Plenty more I'm sure.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: Gubump on October 28, 2015, 03:33:40 pm
Also, I don't think you can ever say that a treasure breaks the strictly better rule because of an action, or vice-versa. Yes treasures as a general rule are stronger, because they can't be drawn dead. But they also become weaker in a pretty big number of edge cases, so you can't ever say one is strictly better than the other. A few times when you might wish your treasure were an action:

Throne Room
King's Court
Procession
Disciple
Tactician
Scrying Pool
Golem
Watchtower
Library
Graverobber

Plenty more I'm sure.

Why Tactician, Watchtower, and JOAT? You probably wouldn't want to trash the Penny with JOAT.

Also, I didn't say or mean that Penny was strictly better than Lighthouse because of being a Treasure instead of an Action. I said that because you can get the 2nd +\$1 at the start of any turn that you choose, not just on the turn after you play it.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: Awaclus on October 28, 2015, 03:46:42 pm
Why Tactician, Watchtower, and JOAT? You probably wouldn't want to trash the Penny with JOAT.

You want to play it before playing a draw-to-X (or in Tactician's case, discard-to-X).
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: Gubump on October 28, 2015, 07:06:42 pm
Why Tactician, Watchtower, and JOAT? You probably wouldn't want to trash the Penny with JOAT.

You want to play it before playing a draw-to-X (or in Tactician's case, discard-to-X).

Ah, okay. Can't believe I didn't get that.
Title: Re: Wording Challenge: Penny
Post by: Gubump on October 28, 2015, 10:29:03 pm
Okay, we just playtested Penny, and it is significantly too strong, mainly due to it being a Reserve card. So, I'll post the nerfed version in the OP.