Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion Online at Shuffle iT => Dominion General Discussion => Goko Dominion Online => Topic started by: Seprix on June 11, 2015, 06:27:31 pm

Title: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 11, 2015, 06:27:31 pm
http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?6883-Version-2-Open-Beta-launch-underway&p=35086#post35086

Hey! Can't wait!
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: dudeabides on June 11, 2015, 07:45:23 pm
That post says, "...when it is live, which should be in a few hours (mid-afternoon Pacific time). On that page you will see a big green button to download Dominion for PC, Mac and Linux."

It's now late-afternoon Pacific time, and I'm still waiting for that big green button  :'(

Literally seconds after I made this post, the big green button appeared! The universe is conspiring to shower me with blessings  :)
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 11, 2015, 07:47:24 pm
There's a big green button there for me.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: jsh357 on June 11, 2015, 07:55:39 pm
I want to take this moment to say my favorite new feature of Dominion Online is the crystal ball loading screen with floating heads of various cards.  It cracks me up every single time.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Wolphmaniac on June 11, 2015, 08:00:20 pm
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTBKVdG2rbAI55YQX8NsdS0ZIwRcYZ5R-dyZaSAuK9O3SJ_PdgChg)
So now I need a 300MB app on my hard drive instead of playing in a browser?
This big green button is more like a big green pile of dog shit!

Haha OK I'm overreacting. 

But seriously, good luck remembering your password everyone!
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 11, 2015, 08:05:14 pm
I find the input configuration the most interesting.  Apparently I may need to fire and/or jump in this new Dominion.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: DavidTheDavid on June 11, 2015, 08:07:51 pm
And scroll down on the web page to play on the old site. :)
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 11, 2015, 08:10:43 pm
There are some... bugs.

And no log.

But it's Beta.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Wolphmaniac on June 11, 2015, 08:20:48 pm
Yeah I just won a game and my record is 0-0-0.  Ah well, just happy to play.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: jsh357 on June 11, 2015, 08:26:08 pm
Yeah I just won a game and my record is 0-0-0.  Ah well, just happy to play.

The rating system is not working yet, they said so in the announcements.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Awaclus on June 11, 2015, 08:29:39 pm
I've been trying to log in for like 5 minutes or so, it just says "Please Wait...".
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: DavidTheDavid on June 11, 2015, 08:40:13 pm
There are some... bugs.

And no log.

But it's Beta.
Click on the bullet list to get the log. A sidebar is in the works.

There are definitely some bugs, but the devs are continuing with weekly builds.

Yeah I just won a game and my record is 0-0-0.  Ah well, just happy to play.

That should be in the next release. I also learned that wins and losses update when you login, so if you spent an hour playing three or four games, you wouldn't see that card updated until exiting and re-entering, which admittedly strikes me as a bit annoyoing. And your existing records should have carried over--you just can't see it yet.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 11, 2015, 08:51:20 pm
Oooooooo... kay.  So.  My eyes are screaming at me.

Every single addition of an action/buy/coin... every time you're able to gain a card... there are these incredibly bright animations that fly around the screen.  I mean... wow.

I am hugely glad my epilepsy is not the photosensitive type, or I'd be having a lot less fun right now.

Please tell me this bullshit can be turned off?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 11, 2015, 08:52:16 pm
There are definitely some bugs, but the devs are continuing with weekly builds.

Two of the bugs - the wrong deck size bug and the askew text - make normal play frustrating in the extreme.  Would it be possible for this to be fixed *before* next Thursday?  As in within the next couple days?  I think weekly updates is a great way to go, but for this first few days where we're encountering bugs that make gameplay dissatisfying, this needs to be addressed on a more flexible schedule.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: jsh357 on June 11, 2015, 08:57:12 pm
Oooooooo... kay.  So.  My eyes are screaming at me.

Every single addition of an action/buy/coin... every time you're able to gain a card... there are these incredibly bright animations that fly around the screen.  I mean... wow.

I am hugely glad my epilepsy is not the photosensitive type, or I'd be having a lot less fun right now.

Please tell me this bullshit can be turned off?

I also complained about this day one; there's a big thread on it.  It's actually been improved considerably from how it was.  I believe Jeff (Lord Humanton) said he's still tweaking the look of some things.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: DavidTheDavid on June 11, 2015, 08:58:46 pm
Oooooooo... kay.  So.  My eyes are screaming at me.

Every single addition of an action/buy/coin... every time you're able to gain a card... there are these incredibly bright animations that fly around the screen.  I mean... wow.

I am hugely glad my epilepsy is not the photosensitive type, or I'd be having a lot less fun right now.

Please tell me this bullshit can be turned off?

I also complained about this day one; there's a big thread on it.  It's actually been improved considerably from how it was.  I believe Jeff (Lord Humanton) said he's still tweaking the look of some things.

And I think (but am not sure) that there will be an option to turn off animations, which I would like.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: mameluke on June 11, 2015, 09:05:38 pm
so, revealing cards one by one, like with Sage, seems very, very slow. Esp compared to Goko.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Voltaire on June 11, 2015, 09:07:33 pm
Now this is how you do an interface (for the start/new lobby). Simple, clean, easy to use, pretty. Now to actually play a game and see this animations...

EDIT: Ugh, I take it all back. Those animations!!! Why?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 11, 2015, 09:09:11 pm
so, revealing cards one by one, like with Sage, seems very, very slow. Esp compared to Goko.

Same thing with playing Fortune Teller. Slow cycling.

Now this is how you do an interface (for the start/new lobby). Simple, clean, easy to use, pretty. Now to actually play a game and see this animations...

I think the lobby could be much better. Like, you can still have other rooms, but they should be private offshoots created by other players for invite only. This could be done for tournament purposes and finding friends easier. Also, I'd like to know who is online, so a list of online people is fine. In addition, the 'Seek a game' section could use a bit of revamping, though it's a great start.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: mameluke on June 11, 2015, 09:16:52 pm
Games with Tournament and Ruins -- the Ruins NEED to be on the first page, not the second. Ditto with anything else that bumps Supply cards to the 2nd page.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 11, 2015, 09:19:03 pm
Games with Tournament and Ruins -- the Ruins NEED to be on the first page, not the second. Ditto with anything else that bumps Supply cards to the 2nd page.

They are on the first page. I guess your resolution isn't that high.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: mameluke on June 11, 2015, 09:19:49 pm
I'm playing at the highest resolution. I only see 12 cards on the first page -- the 10 kingdom and the Bag of Gold / Diadem.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Throwaway_bicycling on June 11, 2015, 09:24:30 pm
so, revealing cards one by one, like with Sage, seems very, very slow. Esp compared to Goko.

Same thing with playing Fortune Teller. Slow cycling.
Also Golem is painful to watch cycle through cards, which I guess is consistent. And the weird thing is that other things play at the speed you would expect.

I assume the deck size bug is the the thing that gives you giant cards? Also, my screen resolution setting ended up so that I couldn't see my coin tokens, which is not what you're looking for in a Butcher game...

But...repeat after me...this is a Beta release, and there will be things to fix.

That said, I want to burn the "you can trash this card" fire with fire. And the whirly-wind stuff on cards you can gain...eeuw.

Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 11, 2015, 09:27:28 pm
The deck size bug is that the number saying how many cards you have left in your deck is usually wrong.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Awaclus on June 11, 2015, 09:28:28 pm
The thing you have to open to see how many coin tokens your opponent has is doing something crazy instead of being openable by clicking.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 11, 2015, 09:31:02 pm
The thing you have to open to see how many coin tokens your opponent has is doing something crazy instead of being openable by clicking.

Ugh.

*bangs head on desk repeatedly*

These are all bugs the beta testers complained about, and they didn't fix them in time for their open release, and now all of you are complaining about it again, even though we already complained about it, so they know about it, but you don't know about it, but they should have FIXED IT BEFORE RELEASING guh.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 11, 2015, 09:38:09 pm
I'm playing at the highest resolution. I only see 12 cards on the first page -- the 10 kingdom and the Bag of Gold / Diadem.

All Prizes should be on the second page, along with all unbuyable cards.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: jsh357 on June 11, 2015, 09:40:16 pm
The thing you have to open to see how many coin tokens your opponent has is doing something crazy instead of being openable by clicking.

Ugh.

*bangs head on desk repeatedly*

These are all bugs the beta testers complained about, and they didn't fix them in time for their open release, and now all of you are complaining about it again, even though we already complained about it, so they know about it, but you don't know about it, but they should have FIXED IT BEFORE RELEASING guh.

Well, let's be honest.  They should really just get rid of that slider entirely.  I'm not sure why anyone thought it was a good plan.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 11, 2015, 09:41:43 pm
The thing you have to open to see how many coin tokens your opponent has is doing something crazy instead of being openable by clicking.

Ugh.

*bangs head on desk repeatedly*

These are all bugs the beta testers complained about, and they didn't fix them in time for their open release, and now all of you are complaining about it again, even though we already complained about it, so they know about it, but you don't know about it, but they should have FIXED IT BEFORE RELEASING guh.

Well, let's be honest.  They should really just get rid of that slider entirely.  I'm not sure why anyone thought it was a good plan.

I certainly don't like it. I think it's there for 'mobile functionality'.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on June 11, 2015, 09:45:52 pm
They seem really set on rushing through the release of this new version, and I'm pretty worried they are going to take down the old version before all the problems with the new one are fixed.

Beyond the bugs, the new play speed and animations make this inferior to an already bad version. And I don't really anticipate them addressing all of these (and other) design problems, they don't seem very interested in that.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: mameluke on June 11, 2015, 09:50:15 pm
I'm playing at the highest resolution. I only see 12 cards on the first page -- the 10 kingdom and the Bag of Gold / Diadem.

All Prizes should be on the second page, along with all unbuyable cards.

Agreed. My guess is that it's the 10 (11) Kingdom Cards, and then it's just alphabetical for everything else. Wonder where they think they're going throw Events in.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 11, 2015, 09:57:21 pm
They seem really set on rushing through the release of this new version, and I'm pretty worried they are going to take down the old version before all the problems with the new one are fixed.

Beyond the bugs, the new play speed and animations make this inferior to an already bad version. And I don't really anticipate them addressing all of these (and other) design problems, they don't seem very interested in that.

They'd better make it work.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on June 11, 2015, 10:02:52 pm
Ugh.

*bangs head on desk repeatedly*
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 11, 2015, 10:19:24 pm
Ugh.

*bangs head on desk repeatedly*
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: LastFootnote on June 11, 2015, 10:27:04 pm
Ugh.

*bangs head on desk repeatedly*
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: liopoil on June 11, 2015, 10:27:13 pm
Ugh.

*bangs head on desk repeatedly*
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 11, 2015, 10:39:47 pm
Ugh.

*bangs head on desk repeatedly*
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: pacovf on June 11, 2015, 10:48:49 pm
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee let's see how big this can get!
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: liopoil on June 11, 2015, 10:50:48 pm
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee let's see how big this can get!
It's been done:

AHoppy

Also Seprix you already quoted you can't quote again!
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Jimmmmm on June 11, 2015, 10:51:00 pm
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee let's see how big this can get!
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 11, 2015, 10:52:58 pm
That is an epileptic Matryoshka ziggurat right there, I tell you what.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 11, 2015, 10:53:15 pm
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee let's see how big this can get!
Lio, I got Topdecked.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 11, 2015, 11:16:50 pm
The thing you have to open to see how many coin tokens your opponent has is doing something crazy instead of being openable by clicking.

Ugh.

*bangs head on desk repeatedly*

These are all bugs the beta testers complained about, and they didn't fix them in time for their open release, and now all of you are complaining about it again, even though we already complained about it, so they know about it, but you don't know about it, but they should have FIXED IT BEFORE RELEASING guh.

This is uncannily like deja vu.  At least the entire server isn't crashing multiple times an hour immediately after people started downloading it.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 11, 2015, 11:18:54 pm
The thing you have to open to see how many coin tokens your opponent has is doing something crazy instead of being openable by clicking.

Ugh.

*bangs head on desk repeatedly*

These are all bugs the beta testers complained about, and they didn't fix them in time for their open release, and now all of you are complaining about it again, even though we already complained about it, so they know about it, but you don't know about it, but they should have FIXED IT BEFORE RELEASING guh.

This is uncannily like deja vu.  At least the entire server isn't crashing multiple times an hour immediately after people started downloading it.

Oh, yes, this is infinitely better than that fiasco.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Voltaire on June 11, 2015, 11:27:45 pm
The animations are gone! (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/12px-VP.png)

EDIT: And just like that they're back. I swear to god I got three turns at the start of a game without them.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Elanchana on June 12, 2015, 12:51:55 am
AHMAGAH IT'S HERE!!!

I understand they're still working out the kinks but I gotta say... I just had an absolute train wreck of a game when my cards-in-deck number was 10 over what it needed to be and I ended up accidentally Ambassadoring my ENTIRE DECK away. By some miracle (which is called King's Court/Monument) I still won.

The animations were kinda choppy and in-your-face and like all of us I'm still waiting for private rooms and visible logs, but the basic system itself is at least an improvement over 1.0.

Edit: There are two things in gameplay that I do really like. First, they've made the colored outlines on cards a lot more distinct, especially the red-for-trash one which clearly says "CAUTION: YOU ARE ABOUT TO LOSE THIS CARD FOREVER." Second, it looks like they're trying to tweak the optional effects (like trashing Urchins) so that you don't have to click a button every time you want to skip them. They're actually trying to prevent misclicks, guys!
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on June 12, 2015, 01:11:50 am
The animations were kinda choppy and like all of us I'm still waiting for private rooms and visible logs...
...and a decent chat interface, and an improvement over drag-and-drop watchtower type stuff, and a kingdom builder, and an option to turn off stupid animations...
...but the basic system itself is at least an improvement over 1.0.

Also, is there any way to see your opponent's rating?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 12, 2015, 01:18:55 am
AHMAGAH IT'S HERE!!!

I understand they're still working out the kinks but I gotta say... I just had an absolute train wreck of a game when my cards-in-deck number was 10 over what it needed to be and I ended up accidentally Ambassadoring my ENTIRE DECK away. By some miracle (which is called King's Court/Monument) I still won.

The animations were kinda choppy and like all of us I'm still waiting for private rooms and visible logs, but the basic system itself is at least an improvement over 1.0.

It's worse than Goko. But it's better than when Goko first came out.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Elanchana on June 12, 2015, 01:24:10 am
AHMAGAH IT'S HERE!!!

I understand they're still working out the kinks but I gotta say... I just had an absolute train wreck of a game when my cards-in-deck number was 10 over what it needed to be and I ended up accidentally Ambassadoring my ENTIRE DECK away. By some miracle (which is called King's Court/Monument) I still won.

The animations were kinda choppy and like all of us I'm still waiting for private rooms and visible logs, but the basic system itself is at least an improvement over 1.0.

It's worse than Goko. But it's better than when Goko first came out.

You gotta remember that a lot of people still use Goko without Salvager. It's better than that. Also, I did a bit of editing on my post.

Edit: Ahahaha. Um. It's not letting me log in anymore.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 12, 2015, 02:19:55 am
Looks like the old members are about to get PTSD over MF's new system not working for anybody at the moment.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: jvb on June 12, 2015, 04:53:28 am
Last week I thought about coming back to regular play, checked the site how much the game will cost ($45 for everything) but seeing that there is to be a new version released I decided to wait for it. Now the app says that the whole collection costs $90. Am i missing something or did it indeed increased that much?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Donald X. on June 12, 2015, 05:12:59 am
They seem really set on rushing through the release of this new version, and I'm pretty worried they are going to take down the old version before all the problems with the new one are fixed.
I believe I know the reason for the rush.

Some other company was involved in the store. Collecting payments or whatever. That company decided to stop being a company. So the existing store simply wasn't going to work anymore, as of a date they couldn't control, which I am guessing is right around today.

Now, you can say, well, why not simply not accept payments for a bit? But it's no surprise that they didn't go for that.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Joseph2302 on June 12, 2015, 06:04:45 am
Wow, just played a game on the new one, so many annoying things.

Why so many animations? The feedback from when you suggested it for Steam was "all these animations are completely pointless", yet you continued with them.
Clicked on a player to see their deck, and the rest of the game every time I moved the mouse, that kept moving (like the annnoying lobby scrollbar thing in the old version).
Couldn't find a way to actually use the chat, the chat bar was underneath the bottom of my screen for some reason- and also, why is the chat still in front of the cards?
Took ages to find a game, and halfway through, it completely jammed for no reason.
Also, there's no way of actually meeting up with people, you seem to just get randomly matched with someone, and you have no idea how good they are.

So my question is, have they actually improved this? Because IMO it's basically just a worse version of V1, since we can't use Goko Salvager, the only thing making the old version actually workable.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: RTT on June 12, 2015, 06:09:41 am
i just didnt gain a silver when my opponend gaines an embassy ;) twice
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: SCSN on June 12, 2015, 06:25:01 am
Clicked on a player to see their deck, and the rest of the game every time I moved the mouse, that kept moving (like the annnoying lobby scrollbar thing in the old version).

It's a callback!
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Hugovj on June 12, 2015, 08:08:42 am
Well, I must say, the animations aren't even that annoying if you consider I have to click like, two cards to the left of anything to get the app to do what I want. Which is how I ended up opening Fool's Gold-Curse in stead of Fool's Gold-Rebuild.
I won't play anymore until this is fixed.. Anyone else have this problem?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Accatitippi on June 12, 2015, 08:13:26 am
Well, I must say, the animations aren't even that annoying if you consider I have to click like, two cards to the left of anything to get the app to do what I want. Which is how I ended up opening Fool's Gold-Curse in stead of Fool's Gold-Rebuild.
I won't play anymore until this is fixed.. Anyone else have this problem?

It looks like you found hard mode. :P

There must be something wrong, because when I go to playdominion.com I find the same old website and a noticeable lack of big green buttons. Or of big buttons of any other colors, for that matter.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: jsh357 on June 12, 2015, 08:13:48 am
Well, I must say, the animations aren't even that annoying if you consider I have to click like, two cards to the left of anything to get the app to do what I want. Which is how I ended up opening Fool's Gold-Curse in stead of Fool's Gold-Rebuild.
I won't play anymore until this is fixed.. Anyone else have this problem?

I have never seen that.  You should report it to mf, possibly with screens.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: AdamH on June 12, 2015, 08:24:29 am
Can I ask a stupid question?

Why did you bother with a closed beta?

We provided you with a bunch of feedback, lots and lots and lots of bugs and requests for things to get to the point where they're playable. That source of feedback was not going anywhere, and you weren't running out feature requests. Progress was slow, but things seemed to be getting fixed.

This most recent version has way more bugs, really really bad bugs, and now it's in open beta? Now everyone can see all of these terrible things? Now people are giving you 55 new bug reports about things that closed beta people found already and haven't been fixed yet? I don't get it.

This new version has so many new bugs and really problematic things, it's worse than some of the earlier versions we were using.

I was under the impression that you wouldn't be releasing this thing until it was ready. Now I'm super-worried. I've said it many times before but I'll say it again: if you take away the Goko version and leave us with something that doesn't work, you're going to have many, many upset people, myself included. I have a stream and YouTube channel with hundreds of followers/subscribers. If I don't have something to play that works, and that has an always-visible game log, I'm not going to hold back any punches.

I used to have faith that you guys had a good enough handle on things to not rush something out that wasn't ready. Now I read in this thread that you're under time pressure from something and so all of a sudden WOO OPEN BETA GUIZE! I have no idea why anyone thought this was a good idea.

I don't understand, and it really scares me.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Hugovj on June 12, 2015, 08:32:02 am
Well, I must say, the animations aren't even that annoying if you consider I have to click like, two cards to the left of anything to get the app to do what I want. Which is how I ended up opening Fool's Gold-Curse in stead of Fool's Gold-Rebuild.
I won't play anymore until this is fixed.. Anyone else have this problem?

I have never seen that.  You should report it to mf, possibly with screens.
I have, now let's hope this gets fixed..
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: abura448 on June 12, 2015, 08:45:15 am
Last week I thought about coming back to regular play, checked the site how much the game will cost ($45 for everything) but seeing that there is to be a new version released I decided to wait for it. Now the app says that the whole collection costs $90. Am i missing something or did it indeed increased that much?

Exact same thought process I'm going through right now.... looks like I'll just play on Tuesday nights with my friends.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Witherweaver on June 12, 2015, 09:32:40 am
So anyone else have really choppy animations with the new version when set to higher speeds?  It seems like the speed options range from slow and tedious, but smoothish, to choppy and laggy.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: jsh357 on June 12, 2015, 09:35:03 am
So anyone else have really choppy animations with the new version when set to higher speeds?  It seems like the speed options range from slow and tedious, but smoothish, to choppy and laggy.

Yes, they have been choppy since the beginning.  As far as I know the dev team is aware and just hasn't ironed everything out yet.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Witherweaver on June 12, 2015, 09:41:27 am
So anyone else have really choppy animations with the new version when set to higher speeds?  It seems like the speed options range from slow and tedious, but smoothish, to choppy and laggy.

Yes, they have been choppy since the beginning.  As far as I know the dev team is aware and just hasn't ironed everything out yet.

Great, so now they're going to be flat, too?!
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: brokenlasagna on June 12, 2015, 09:47:23 am
Just played it... it's a little horrific. So much time wasted on stupid things like an animation over the curse pile when you curse someone, and all the sparklies for no reason... it's like.... lets focus on the trivial stuff first! At this rate, please leave the Goko version up forever, at least salvager makes that playable...
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 12, 2015, 10:17:42 am
Someday people will stop blurring the difference between an alpha and a beta.

Let's come out and say it:  much like Goko's initial "beta release," this is not a beta release.  This is an alpha: not feature complete, full of major and obvious bugs, not fully usable--certainly not what you want the general public to see.  It's much better than the Goko "beta," but that's like saying the Kon-Tiki was better than the Titanic--and it's still less polished than a number of open or semi-open alpha releases (see: Minecraft, Factorio, Prismata).

I can now understand why they didn't want the "closed beta" to be seen by the public; were I a software developer, I wouldn't want the alpha releases open to the public unless there was good reason to do so.

Of course, they apparently had to rush things because of a cash flow problem.  While I can't entirely blame them, I suspect the cash flow problem resulting from releasing this into the wild is going to be worse than the cash flow problem from not being able to accept payments for a few weeks.  Hey, maybe I'm wrong, I'm not a business guy.

I really did have some hope here.  In hindsight, that hope wasn't warranted.  Sad, I suppose.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 12, 2015, 10:41:38 am
I'm guessing this is supposed to be the distinction:

Alpha: Not feature complete.

Beta: Feature complete, trying to niggle out the last few bugs, test for balance (not necessary in an online implementation of a complete game), test servers for heavy traffic.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: younglink7 on June 12, 2015, 10:43:08 am
Last week I thought about coming back to regular play, checked the site how much the game will cost ($45 for everything) but seeing that there is to be a new version released I decided to wait for it. Now the app says that the whole collection costs $90. Am i missing something or did it indeed increased that much?

Yeah, I was all excited about potentially completing my online collection and diving into playing online with friends. Previously it was somewhere in the $30s (I think - it was much lower anyways). Now it is telling me that it costs $60 to complete.  I still have no clue as to why I need to overpay with these Gokoi...er...Ducats.  Why not just allow me to make a standard in-app purchase with real money?

So anyone else have really choppy animations with the new version when set to higher speeds?  It seems like the speed options range from slow and tedious, but smoothish, to choppy and laggy.

The choppy-ness and the animations really bugged me to the point that I quit playing after a few hands.  Mostly because I have been waiting for the non-Goko version for so long that I pictured that it would be somewhat superior even in beta.  It was so deflating to wait this long for something that feels less polished....
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Jimmmmm on June 12, 2015, 10:52:03 am
What I like: the automatch.
What I don't like: everything else.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 12, 2015, 10:57:29 am
What I really don't understand is why they rebuilt the game exactly like Goko's version.

It's almost like they just copied the sprites and code...
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 12, 2015, 10:57:44 am
The changing heads while waiting for an automatch?  That is really the biggest thing that gets me right now. 
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Jimmmmm on June 12, 2015, 11:05:53 am
Ah. Another thing I like: showing the empty piles after the game.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Joseph2302 on June 12, 2015, 11:22:03 am
What I like: the automatch.
What I don't like: everything else.
The automatch is good, however the option of having to use it is annoying.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Accatitippi on June 12, 2015, 11:30:35 am
Well, I must say, the animations aren't even that annoying if you consider I have to click like, two cards to the left of anything to get the app to do what I want. Which is how I ended up opening Fool's Gold-Curse in stead of Fool's Gold-Rebuild.
I won't play anymore until this is fixed.. Anyone else have this problem?

I have never seen that.  You should report it to mf, possibly with screens.
I have, now let's hope this gets fixed..

I had the same problem, and this fixed it:
At the start of the game, select a resolution that has the same height/width ratio as your screen. If you did this right, Rio Grande Games' logo at the loading screen should feature a round sun, and buttons will work properly.

I played a couple of games vs AI (that's how I usually play) and it worked smoothly. No annoying animations whatsoever, no sparkles. I'm not sure what people are referring to. The cost increase is a huge bummer.
AI felt a lot more stupid than usual.

EDIT: oh, and Salvager is sorely missed. But as long as it will come later, it's good. I didn't expect to immediately switch to 2.0 anyway.
EDIT2: a second kingdom included some really sparkling cards. I agree that it's really unnecessary, and a bit annoying (in particular the sparkles going from a played card to all the cards in the Supply). Still reading the comments here I was expecting much worse. I'm a slow player, and that might be a factor.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: LastFootnote on June 12, 2015, 11:48:44 am
#gokowasbetter

Who would have thought we'd see the day?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Jimmmmm on June 12, 2015, 12:24:17 pm
I lost on turns and it said 'Tie Game', although it did play the losing sound and had me listed in 2nd in the log.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 12, 2015, 12:24:32 pm
#gokowasbetter

Who would have thought we'd see the day?

(http://kbarts.hu/tmp2/city_dest_close2.jpg)
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: pacovf on June 12, 2015, 12:30:25 pm
So huh has anyone around here been around a Civilization forum for a new game launch?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Jimmmmm on June 12, 2015, 12:56:21 pm
My opponent was having "connection troubles". It took a very long time for him to finally "quit". Maybe 15 minutes.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 12, 2015, 12:57:15 pm
So huh has anyone around here been around a Civilization forum for a new game launch?

...yes.  I am tentatively optimistic for Rising Tide, but my hopes aren't very high.  Guess I gotta wait for the Moon to shove the water up a little more.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: rspeer on June 12, 2015, 12:59:24 pm
It's an interesting comparison, because Civ 4 had minor problems at launch, and Civ 5 had fatal problems at launch, and both of them were eventually made into very good games with lots of effort from a modding community.

Goko Dominion Online + Salvager is our Civ 5. I'm starting to think that MoFo Dominion Online 2.0 is our Beyond Earth.

Hmm, not even. At least you can mod Beyond Earth.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Jimmmmm on June 12, 2015, 01:04:02 pm
My draw pile is claiming it contains a lot more cards than it does. It's very disconcerting.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: mameluke on June 12, 2015, 01:17:56 pm
Go back and play Goko after playing this for a while. Crazy how much better it is (and looks).
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Witherweaver on June 12, 2015, 01:18:29 pm
Go back and play Goko after playing this for a while. Crazy how much better it is (and looks).

THAT WAS THEIR PLAN ALL ALONG!!!!!!
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Honkeyfresh on June 12, 2015, 01:41:49 pm
Well, I must say, the animations aren't even that annoying if you consider I have to click like, two cards to the left of anything to get the app to do what I want. Which is how I ended up opening Fool's Gold-Curse in stead of Fool's Gold-Rebuild.
I won't play anymore until this is fixed.. Anyone else have this problem?

This happened to me.  I think it means your monitor settings are off.  use this link for a foolproof way to know.

http://www.whatismyscreenresolution.com/
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Hugovj on June 12, 2015, 01:56:59 pm
Well, I must say, the animations aren't even that annoying if you consider I have to click like, two cards to the left of anything to get the app to do what I want. Which is how I ended up opening Fool's Gold-Curse in stead of Fool's Gold-Rebuild.
I won't play anymore until this is fixed.. Anyone else have this problem?

This happened to me.  I think it means your monitor settings are off.  use this link for a foolproof way to know.

http://www.whatismyscreenresolution.com/
Yep, this did the trick! Annoying that the game itself doesn't pick your resolution directly, but it works now.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on June 12, 2015, 02:22:02 pm
#gokowasbetter

Who would have thought we'd see the day?

I was this close to registering the name gokowasbetter for this forum when I decided to post again.  But I'm lazy and it seemed disingenuous.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: GendoIkari on June 12, 2015, 03:09:04 pm
This is just the second law of thermodynamics at work. Over time, implementations of online Dominion will get less and less polished.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: sudgy on June 12, 2015, 03:18:17 pm
This is just the second law of thermodynamics at work. Over time, implementations of online Dominion will get less and less polished.

We must make an entropy offering to appease the gods of dominion.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Voltaire on June 12, 2015, 03:57:14 pm
#gokowasbetter

Who would have thought we'd see the day?

Can we all please remember that, bad as the current state of 2.0 is, 1.0 remains? The only way this could actually be "worse" than when we went Iso > Goko would be if 1.0 were now gone.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Witherweaver on June 12, 2015, 04:20:57 pm
Current beta 2.0 seems essentially unplayable to me.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: rspeer on June 12, 2015, 04:29:18 pm
Can we all please remember that, bad as the current state of 2.0 is, 1.0 remains? The only way this could actually be "worse" than when we went Iso > Goko would be if 1.0 were now gone.

1.0 isn't taking people's money anymore. How long do you really think they'll keep maintaining it? How long can it go on without new players? We're in the equivalent of the period when both Iso and Goko existed and Iso was on notice, so it seems right to feel about the same despair as last time.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: blueblimp on June 12, 2015, 04:31:02 pm
I'm honestly not seeing why this is considered a disaster. Let's assume for a moment that blatant bugs will be fixed before release. (Even Goko did that.) Let's also assume that they will add the features they've said they're going to add before release, like the side log.

Here are some positives I see:
- Automatch UI is nice. Looks inspired by isotropic's UI, since there are expansion-bias options.
- More piles on the first page! Ruins no longer go on the second page.
- Point counter built into the game. Yes Salvager has one, but that requires installing a browser extension. Now it's more widely available.

Some negatives (other than the bugs):
- Seemingly no way to arrange a game with friends, and no hint of where that UI would go either.
- Feels like deja vu with the obtrusive animations, since Goko went through a phase with that too.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Witherweaver on June 12, 2015, 05:16:44 pm
It's not a disaster, just Hooli-Nucleus-phone-like.

Well seriously, I'm not sure what to do with the beta.  The video lag and slow response time makes it so unpleasant to play that I can't get a feel of pros/cons of the features.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on June 12, 2015, 05:24:17 pm
Let's assume for a moment that blatant bugs will be fixed before release. (Even Goko did that.) Let's also assume that they will add the features they've said they're going to add before release, like the side log.

How can anyone argue with this? It doesn't mean anything: "if they get everything right, everything will be right". I'm not optimistic based on the progress during the closed beta and what they are willing to put out as a public beta. I'm also happy to be wrong. Either way, I don't think they deserve any credit for words.

Some people are really dramatic about it, and sure they sound silly. Maybe you just don't like the dramatic tone, but the criticisms are totally legitimate, this version does not provide a working/enjoyable game of Dominion.

Quote
Here are some positives I see:
- Automatch UI is nice. Looks inspired by isotropic's UI, since there are expansion-bias options.
- More piles on the first page! Ruins no longer go on the second page.
- Point counter built into the game. Yes Salvager has one, but that requires installing a browser extension. Now it's more widely available.

The last two were bugged in the previous release, can't say about the most recent one (well the 2nd one is for sure still bugged in some cases). The expansion-bias was suspected to be bugged at some point, but I don't think anyone ever ran the numbers.

The big issue for me continues to be play speed. They haven't been terribly receptive to suggestions/requests related to this. Some things have gotten better in this area, some things have gotten worse throughout the beta.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: jamfamsam on June 12, 2015, 05:52:29 pm
It sounds like, due to the payment processing closing from version 1.0, they were forced to put out the open beta of 2.0 before they wanted to. I'm sure they had hoped to have it in better shape by the deadline but it didn't happen.

I am concerned about comments from people in the closed beta about things not getting better or actually getting worse. I am willing to wait and see how things shape up over the next few weeks. I certainly hope they will leave 1.0 up until 2.0 is playable.

I also don't see any way to set up a game with a specific person. It will kill the leagues if that doesn't change.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Voltaire on June 12, 2015, 05:56:11 pm
I also don't see any way to set up a game with a specific person. It will kill the leagues if that doesn't change.

That's a promised feature they're aware is lacking.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 12, 2015, 05:57:06 pm
Tell you what.  Let's just swear off playing until they fix things.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: jsh357 on June 12, 2015, 05:59:50 pm
Tell you what.  Let's just swear off playing until they fix things.

There is some logic in this.  Not as a protest, but just so they can fix existing problems instead of being inundated with new ones that might be worked out via existing fixes etc.

And yeah, in some ways the game plays worse now than it did in closed.  A lot of really obvious and head-scratching bugs appeared in this version, notably the one where text appears outside of cards. 
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: LastFootnote on June 12, 2015, 06:04:58 pm
Tell you what.  Let's just swear off playing until they fix things.

I have done this all throughout the closed beta. Every week they'd release a new version. Did they fix the animation? Oh, they didn't. Another week of no testing from me.

It's not that I'm boycotting it out of spite. I just have better things to do with my time than play a horribly slow, buggy game. Until they act on my current suggestion of "fix the animations already", I'm not going to waste time with it.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Joseph2302 on June 12, 2015, 07:00:38 pm
Tell you what.  Let's just swear off playing until they fix things.

I have done this all throughout the closed beta. Every week they'd release a new version. Did they fix the animation? Oh, they didn't. Another week of no testing from me.

It's not that I'm boycotting it out of spite. I just have better things to do with my time than play a horribly slow, buggy game. Until they act on my current suggestion of "fix the animations already", I'm not going to waste time with it.
Honestly I feel the same way. They released some V2.0 pictures on Steam, everyone said "get rid of the animations, and work on the issues instead", and they just didn't listen. I'm not playing on the substandard 2.0 version until it's actually worth using.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Wolphmaniac on June 12, 2015, 08:01:14 pm
Installed yesterday.

Uninstalled today.  Shit was so slow it was unbearable, not to mention the glitches like the cards in the deck glitch.  Online Dominion is dead to me.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Awaclus on June 12, 2015, 08:17:37 pm
I think it's pretty fast, actually. I mean, it's not even nearly as fast as Prismata, but it's faster than the 1.0 version.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Darth Vader on June 12, 2015, 10:31:30 pm
You have failed me for the last time, Admiral Dominion Online.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 12, 2015, 10:32:44 pm
You have failed me for the last time, Admiral Dominion Online.

Oh, shut up, Ani.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Darth Vader on June 12, 2015, 10:34:49 pm
You have failed me for the last time, Admiral Dominion Online.

Oh, shut up, Ani.

Now that is a name I have not heard in a long time... A long time. Not since I matured from a sniveling emotional bitch to the badass that I now am.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 12, 2015, 10:36:41 pm
You have failed me for the last time, Admiral Dominion Online.

Oh, shut up, Ani.

Now that is a name I have not heard in a long time... A long time. Not since I matured from a sniveling emotional bitch to the badass that I now am.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F1d3QWsyk0
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Throwaway_bicycling on June 12, 2015, 10:38:09 pm
I think it's pretty fast, actually. I mean, it's not even nearly as fast as Prismata, but it's faster than the 1.0 version.
So that might have been true at one point, but, tonight, when I tried to play actual human opponents...it was a disaster. Everything took literally minutes to happen. I don't know why we did it, but I just played a ~75 minute game with Kenny Easwaran...for science...since we were trying to determine whether the excruciating lag was for all things or only some things. Honestly, it got so bad that we were berating each other for playing our Hamlets, since you have to react twice. Also, it was a Fool's Gold board...really painful.

Obviously, a bug that needs to be fixed, and likely one that was tickled by a bunch of new, weekend traffic ("Woot! New beta of Dominion out!!"), but still, it was just horrific.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Elanchana on June 12, 2015, 11:04:49 pm
Yep, I'm getting lag too. Serious, every-move-is-taking-a-full-minute-and-my-computer-is-screaming lag. I'm pretty sure that it's a temporary glitch, because the login lockout was too, but still. Sigh.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Throwaway_bicycling on June 12, 2015, 11:05:55 pm
I think it's pretty fast, actually. I mean, it's not even nearly as fast as Prismata, but it's faster than the 1.0 version.
Obviously, a bug that needs to be fixed, and likely one that was tickled by a bunch of new, weekend traffic ("Woot! New beta of Dominion out!!"), but still, it was just horrific.
That said, I can't even play Serf Bot without preposterous lag, at least tonight.

Honestly. I am pretty sure that the collected f.ds community has sufficient programming skills to stomp all over what I have seen so far even without using the Isotropic code base. I really do believe that.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Elanchana on June 12, 2015, 11:07:08 pm
Whoops, never mind. Login lockout is back.

For pete's sake, MF. Pottermore's beta was better than this.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Throwaway_bicycling on June 12, 2015, 11:08:22 pm
Yep, I'm getting lag too. Serious, every-move-is-taking-a-full-minute-and-my-computer-is-screaming lag. I'm pretty sure that it's a temporary glitch, because the login lockout was too, but still. Sigh.
Well, it had obviously better be temporary, or else their revenue stream goes to zero. But still: why can't I even play freaking SERF BOT in real time? That should not be touching the server, except for maybe chat, but chat is actually the one thing that works in real time.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 12, 2015, 11:11:04 pm
Whoops, never mind. Login lockout is back.

For pete's sake, MF. Pottermore's beta was better than this.

If lockout means they're fixing things, I'm for it.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Elanchana on June 12, 2015, 11:12:49 pm
Actually... I'm going through the MF forum and it looks like the login lockout is caused by them fixing stuff, so that's good at least. This is what gives me hope. (http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?6925-Known-Bugs-2-0)

Edit: Ninja'd by Wero

Edit2: There's something I REALLY want to test out when it comes back, and even if no one watches I'm gonna do it on stream just to have video evidence.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: pubby on June 12, 2015, 11:18:09 pm
I'm still confused. Is MF only rewriting the client, or did they also rewrite the server? Seems like the server is badly-coded dog shit. The fact that bugs like this (http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?6886-Unable-to-purchase-3-cards-when-I-have-4) are even possible just boggles my mind.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: LastFootnote on June 12, 2015, 11:19:36 pm
I'm still confused. Is MF only rewriting the client, or did they also rewrite the server? Seems like the server is badly-coded dog shit. The fact that bugs like this (http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?6886-Unable-to-purchase-3-cards-when-I-have-4) are even possible just boggles my mind.

They also rewrote the server.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on June 12, 2015, 11:54:40 pm
Hi all.

I haven't logged on here in ages; I think the last time I was here was during one of the Goko betas/launches. Goko just wasn't for me. When I heard this "new" version was in open beta I thought I'd give it a go.

I downloaded and installed it but I have yet to be able to sign up or sign in; it just sits and spins. While waiting for that to (not) work I've been perusing this thread and listening to the title music and let me tell you: both of those activities have convinced me to hit "snooze" on this thing for another month or two at least.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 13, 2015, 12:02:21 am
Hi all.

I haven't logged on here in ages; I think the last time I was here was during one of the Goko betas/launches. Goko just wasn't for me. When I heard this "new" version was in open beta I thought I'd give it a go.

I downloaded and installed it but I have yet to be able to sign up or sign in; it just sits and spins. While waiting for that to (not) work I've been perusing this thread and listening to the title music and let me tell you: both of those activities have convinced me to hit "snooze" on this thing for another month or two at least.

Right now, it's bad.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Elanchana on June 13, 2015, 01:53:50 am
JACKPOT! Apparently Lost City got implemented early!

(http://i61.tinypic.com/14uktnd.png)

In all seriousness though, the program just got so glitchy that I thought my computer actually broke. Twice.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 13, 2015, 02:00:16 am
JACKPOT! Apparently Lost City got implemented early!

(http://i61.tinypic.com/14uktnd.png)

In all seriousness though, the program just got so glitchy that I thought my computer actually broke. Twice.

WTF!? Seriously, this got released to public beta way too early.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Beyond Awesome on June 13, 2015, 02:35:03 am
Yah. I got the beta invite two weeks ago. I tried it once and said 'f' this and never tried bothering with it again.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Gveoniz on June 13, 2015, 03:40:46 am
For some reasons, the game have been working fine enough for me except for the lack of sidebar.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: matste on June 13, 2015, 04:58:35 am
After playing few games, the login screen started freezing for me. So I decided to investigate a little. Apparently the program tries to write into C:\Program Files (x86)\Dominion\Dominion_Data. Great. Let's run it as administrator. Probably the first program launch after the instalation was done with the administrator privileges. Now the screen doesn't freeze, just nothing happens after clicking the "Sign in" button.
What's in the logs?
Quote
WebSocketException: A timeout has occurred while reading an HTTP request/response
Nothing new. Just like with 1.0, the servers can't handle the traffic.

What's more interesting is that in the logs I can find password in plain text. The whole network communication is also logged. :-\
Quote
LogWeb: Send Controller: {"message":"login", "clientVersion":"2.0.29", "name":"matste", "password":"********"}

Goko was better.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Psyduck on June 13, 2015, 05:58:18 am
I really feel that some people are being a bit too harsh on MakingFun.

I do agree that the current 2.0 version has lots of flaws and possibly it wasn't the best idea to release it while being in that state.
However, reading this thread one must assume that it's completely unplayable. Which is not true. I just played three games without experiencing major problems. Yes, it feels worse than the current 1.0 version, but much, much better that the 1.0 version when it was released.

What I like about MF is that they communicate with us, and make their plans and the current status more transparent.
In addition, they kept their promise to release the open beta on June 11th. I really didn't expect them to hold that date, as usually the release dates of new online games are postponed again and again. What's more, I completely expected the game to be unplayable due to load and performance issues for at least a couple of days. This, however, doesn't seem to cause problems.

Personally, I'll just wait until they fixed the bugs. Finding and addressing a bug is often easy, while fixing it is usually way more difficult. The list of known bugs is super long, but I'm completely sure the developers are doing their best to fix them as fast as possible. We should give them the time they need. As long as version 1.0 isn't shut down (which would make me change my mind), I don't feel like being worried at all.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Elanchana on June 13, 2015, 08:59:14 am
I really feel that some people are being a bit too harsh on MakingFun.

I do agree that the current 2.0 version has lots of flaws and possibly it wasn't the best idea to release it while being in that state.
However, reading this thread one must assume that it's completely unplayable. Which is not true. I just played three games without experiencing major problems. Yes, it feels worse than the current 1.0 version, but much, much better that the 1.0 version when it was released.

What I like about MF is that they communicate with us, and make their plans and the current status more transparent.
In addition, they kept their promise to release the open beta on June 11th. I really didn't expect them to hold that date, as usually the release dates of new online games are postponed again and again. What's more, I completely expected the game to be unplayable due to load and performance issues for at least a couple of days. This, however, doesn't seem to cause problems.

Personally, I'll just wait until they fixed the bugs. Finding and addressing a bug is often easy, while fixing it is usually way more difficult. The list of known bugs is super long, but I'm completely sure the developers are doing their best to fix them as fast as possible. We should give them the time they need. As long as version 1.0 isn't shut down (which would make me change my mind), I don't feel like being worried at all.

All really good points. I said it on my stream but it's worth saying in text form: I truly believe that 2.0 is a good start. It actually does have some things that people wanted on Goko for years. And yes, they're listening to us when we tell them about the bugs and glitches - I don't know enough about programming to tell how long to expect them to take on fixing each one.

On the other hand, it's pretty clear that they bit off more than they could chew with the June 11th release date. I'm not sure if waiting until it was playable more often and had more features would have been the best idea, because everyone hates waiting, but they could probably give a warning on the site: "This beta still has many flaws and is not the full version." A lot of us were expecting something at least to the standard of pre-Salvager Goko, which, though far from perfect, is pretty dang high for a program that hasn't even been finished yet.

While we wait for them to finish it, we might as well tell them everything we see.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: AdamH on June 13, 2015, 09:07:07 am
What's more interesting is that in the logs I can find password in plain text. The whole network communication is also logged. :-\
Quote
LogWeb: Send Controller: {"message":"login", "clientVersion":"2.0.29", "name":"matste", "password":"********"}

WHAT??!?!??!?!

Are you serious?! You're kidding, right? That's completely unacceptable.

Unbelievable. I'm actually furious right now.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: GendoIkari on June 13, 2015, 10:07:37 am
What's more interesting is that in the logs I can find password in plain text. The whole network communication is also logged. :-\
Quote
LogWeb: Send Controller: {"message":"login", "clientVersion":"2.0.29", "name":"matste", "password":"********"}

WHAT??!?!??!?!

Are you serious?! You're kidding, right? That's completely unacceptable.

Unbelievable. I'm actually furious right now.

Before I get furious, I want clarification.... are you talking about your actual account password that you had to give when you signed up? The one that you had to pick because for some stupid reason SSO with Google wasn't implemented even though Goko had it? And where are these logs?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: GendoIkari on June 13, 2015, 10:09:23 am
Also, are purchases supposed to be carried over? I had half of Prosperity on Goko (because they gave me some free Gokoins for being a tester)... but this says I only have the base set.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Accatitippi on June 13, 2015, 10:16:14 am
Also, are purchases supposed to be carried over? I had half of Prosperity on Goko (because they gave me some free Gokoins for being a tester)... but this says I only have the base set.
Yes they should be carried over (of course!!). EDIT: looking at the new store it seems they're abandoning the old "buy expansions bit by bit" model, and half-expansions do not exist any more. Maybe you can ask for a ducat refund/fix? :/

I looked at the log file in the installation directory, and a quick search for "Accatitippi" gave no results.
matste is probably referring to some other logs. If it's true it is a big one. Now if it turns out that they are also sending/storing passwords in plain text it will be just like Goko's launch.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: -Stef- on June 13, 2015, 10:28:36 am
I don't know if I should be very sad or very pissed. I don't feel like doing either.

Considering to stop playing dominion online altogether now :(
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: liopoil on June 13, 2015, 10:32:20 am
I'm feeling cautiously optimistic that when I get back in 6 weeks things will be better.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: GendoIkari on June 13, 2015, 10:35:27 am
I'm feeling cautiously optimistic that when I get back in 6 weeks things will be better.

If they are really storing my password in plain text, then no amount of improvement or promises will get me to trust them enough to play their game again. Any company that does something like that has no business still existing as a software company.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 13, 2015, 10:38:22 am
Plaintext password log ins are completely terrible.

People are actually forgetting this is beta. Is it bad? Yes. Will it get better? Yes! It's been out for what, like three days?

I'm feeling cautiously optimistic that when I get back in 6 weeks things will be better.

If they are really storing my password in plain text, then no amount of improvement or promises will get me to trust them enough to play their game again. Any company that does something like that has no business still existing as a software company.

Which is why they had better fix it. ASAP. If we all send messages, they'll hopefully fix it.

Why am I saying hopefully...? Man, it's hard being optimistic right now...
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 13, 2015, 10:40:46 am
Like seriously though. I'm not touching the beta again until they fix that security breach.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: GendoIkari on June 13, 2015, 10:43:09 am
Plaintext password log ins are completely terrible.

People are actually forgetting this is beta. Is it bad? Yes. Will it get better? Yes! It's been out for what, like three days?

I'm feeling cautiously optimistic that when I get back in 6 weeks things will be better.

If they are really storing my password in plain text, then no amount of improvement or promises will get me to trust them enough to play their game again. Any company that does something like that has no business still existing as a software company.

Which is why they had better fix it. ASAP. If we all send messages, they'll hopefully fix it.

Why am I saying hopefully...? Man, it's hard being optimistic right now...

The thing is, implementing basic security in regards to logons isn't a feature that needs to be added after you have a non-correct login system in place. It's not like you should or would ever implement a non-secure login system just to get something running, with plans to secure it later. Instead it's something that you need to build into the very foundation of the code. If they're doing it incorrectly, then all the login and user account creation code would need to be completely rewritten from scratch; there would be no point to having any sort of temporary login system. This isn't something like a missing feature that needs to be added or a bug that needs to be fixed.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: pubby on June 13, 2015, 10:43:42 am
If they are really storing my password in plain text, then no amount of improvement or promises will get me to trust them enough to play their game again.
The actual risk is that they're storing passwords on their server, and from what I can tell, we don't know if they are doing this or not. Having them visible in client-side logs is obviously a bug, but it barely seems like a security issue.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: -Stef- on June 13, 2015, 10:46:04 am
People are actually forgetting this is beta. Is it bad? Yes. Will it get better? Yes! It's been out for what, like three days?

It may be out for 3 days for you now, I've been playing with it for about 6 weeks.

At first, there was the complete and utter shock. Why, why, why, why on earth if you get the chance to rewrite something from scratch you copy all the terrible interface decisions from the previous version?

Then there was a group of betatesters and even though there were a lot of small bugs, three things were clearly very frustrating: the animations, the delays while playing, and get the log not on the side. I feel very much ignored with any kind of feedback I gave. Only reports on clear bugs were apparently interesting enough to do something with, and almost none of those got solved either.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: GendoIkari on June 13, 2015, 10:48:03 am
If they are really storing my password in plain text, then no amount of improvement or promises will get me to trust them enough to play their game again.
The actual risk is that they're storing passwords on their server, and from what I can tell, we don't know if they are doing this or not. Having them visible in client-side logs is obviously a bug, but it barely seems like a security issue.

You're right that it does depend on where these logs are; but in any basic login system, that level of code shouldn't have any sort of access to the plain-text password that you type in. If there's any network communication at all, the password needs to be hashed before being sent. Even if there's not any network communication at that level, the password should be hashed at the very first opportunity to do so, as soon as the login event is handled. Before it is sent to any sort of method that would be doing any logging.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Polk5440 on June 13, 2015, 10:49:13 am
I hope everyone is reporting every bug they find on making fun's forum. Screenshots and all. They do no good in this thread.

ESPECIALLY THE SUSPECTED PASSWORD PROBLEM.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 13, 2015, 10:53:03 am
* These people are not Goko.  It took Goko months just to make incremental changes.  It took them over a year to release all the expansions.  MF has consistently made visible improvements each week with each new release, and they have been listening to our suggestions.  I understand your suspicions, Goko burned us all pretty hard, but I think over the past month or so MF have earned our good faith.  So please, offer up suggestions if you have them (that's what a beta process is for), but try not to be antagonistic about it.

I said this on Wednesday, when the FAQ for the beta was released.  This was before I had actually played the open beta and thus realized that not only had they not fixed any of the major bugs we'd said they needed to fix before wide release, even soft, but there are even more bugs.  I'm starting to regret having said this.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: pubby on June 13, 2015, 10:57:46 am
If there's any network communication at all, the password needs to be hashed before being sent. Even if there's not any network communication at that level, the password should be hashed at the very first opportunity to do so, as soon as the login event is handled. Before it is sent to any sort of method that would be doing any logging.
I'm not a security expert or anything, but isn't hashing client-side completely pointless? Ideally you would send the password over SSL in plaintext and the server hashes it.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: SCSN on June 13, 2015, 11:01:11 am
I can confirm that the password is written in the log in plain text:

Quote
WebSocketConnector: Starting receiving controller messages
 
(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/generated/common/runtime/UnityEngineDebugBindings.gen.cpp Line: 65)

Autologin method: login
 
(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/generated/common/runtime/UnityEngineDebugBindings.gen.cpp Line: 65)

LogWeb: Send Controller: {"message":"login", "clientVersion":"2.0.29", "name":"SheCantSayNo", "password":"#GokoWasBetter"}
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: DG on June 13, 2015, 11:01:21 am
(http://assets.amuniversal.com/f3c92e406cbb01301d46001dd8b71c47)
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: SCSN on June 13, 2015, 11:02:15 am
I hope everyone is reporting every bug they find on making fun's forum. Screenshots and all. They do no good in this thread.

They do no good there either.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 13, 2015, 11:02:46 am
http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?6931-We-haven-t-forgotten-you!&p=35310#post35310

I'll be willing to ride this one out and wait before denouncing anything, even if the closed beta didn't do anything.

I mean, we can't play Dominion anywhere else.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: GendoIkari on June 13, 2015, 11:05:42 am
I can confirm that the password is written in the log in plain text:

Quote
WebSocketConnector: Starting receiving controller messages
 
(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/generated/common/runtime/UnityEngineDebugBindings.gen.cpp Line: 65)

Autologin method: login
 
(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/generated/common/runtime/UnityEngineDebugBindings.gen.cpp Line: 65)

LogWeb: Send Controller: {"message":"login", "clientVersion":"2.0.29", "name":"SheCantSayNo", "password":"#GokoWasBetter"}

Where is this log?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 13, 2015, 11:06:48 am
Just posted this:

http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?6939-Fix-this-now&p=35345#post35345

Quote
The following post is going to come off rather harsh, but I hope it moves MF to actually do something.

Now I understand that, since most of the more competitive Dominion players have already bought all the expansions and thus aren't going to be giving you any more money under the current model, we are your core demographic. We are the ones who recommend Dominion Online to our friends. We are the ones who livestream games. We are the ones who post YouTube videos. We are the ones who give your product any sort of visibility. And after the debacle that was Goko, we're running short on both patience and optimism.

You may have noticed throughout the closed beta that a lot of the invited testers just would not give feedback. That's because there were problems with the build that, for them, were so egregious that they had no desire to even play until you fixed them. But you haven't. And you released a product, even a beta product, even on a soft release, that is not only not feature complete, but bugged to all hell.

And perhaps the biggest problem, and why we all get so pissed off, is that it doesn't seem like you're listening to us. You're so concerned with superfluous things - the animations, the campaigns - none of that matters if the game itself is not playable.

So, I can't really speak for the rest of the the competitive Dominion players, but I can pretty much guarantee that you will have a lot fewer players until the following things are addressed, in order of priority:

* Fix the plain-text password issue.
* Fix the deck counter bug.
* Fix the askew text.
* Fix whatever the hell is causing a card game program to take up so much CPU usage and cause everything to overheat and lag.
* Fix the animations so they don't block Action/Buy/Coin numbers - this is one of the first things we told you!!!
* Fix animation speeds.

Absolutely anything else - be it a simple bug, or the campaigns, or whatever else, can wait. Again, I can't speak for everyone else, but until these things are fixed, I personally will not be playing 2.0. I hope I have your attention.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Rabid on June 13, 2015, 11:07:17 am
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4136.msg89329#msg89329

Has anyone tested the new app for "Unescaped Javascript"?
Or would this only show up once they launch the new browser version?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: GendoIkari on June 13, 2015, 11:13:05 am
If there's any network communication at all, the password needs to be hashed before being sent. Even if there's not any network communication at that level, the password should be hashed at the very first opportunity to do so, as soon as the login event is handled. Before it is sent to any sort of method that would be doing any logging.
I'm not a security expert or anything, but isn't hashing client-side completely pointless? Ideally you would send the password over SSL in plaintext and the server hashes it.

I wouldn't call myself a security expert, but I have spent several years writing applications requiring a login system professionally. You're right that in a web site, it would be the server that hashes the password, not the client. The important thing is that it would be hashed immediately, before it is sent to any other methods that would be doing logging or anything like that.

Now I don't know anything about Unity, but from what I can tell this looks like your basic Windows application. To make a parallel to a web site, I would consider the "client" side to be the front-end; where you see the window and type in your password, etc. And I would consider the "server" side to be the code behind that handles events such as clicking "login". I know it's all running on your local computer, but if you want to think of it like a secure website, then the part that handles events would be the server, and that's where it should be hashed. I assume that as part of handling the event, it calls some web service to authenticate the user. And it would just make sense to hash the password before sending it to that web service.

I admit that I have far more knowledge about web applications than Windows applications, so it's possible that I'm mistaken. And again, it all depends on where this "log" actually is.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: SCSN on June 13, 2015, 11:16:09 am
I can confirm that the password is written in the log in plain text:

Quote
WebSocketConnector: Starting receiving controller messages
 
(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/generated/common/runtime/UnityEngineDebugBindings.gen.cpp Line: 65)

Autologin method: login
 
(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/generated/common/runtime/UnityEngineDebugBindings.gen.cpp Line: 65)

LogWeb: Send Controller: {"message":"login", "clientVersion":"2.0.29", "name":"SheCantSayNo", "password":"#GokoWasBetter"}

Where is this log?

C:\Program Files (x86)\Dominion\Dominion_Data\output_log.txt

If it doesn't show up for everyone, it could be that it only shows if you have the "remember my password" and/or auto-login functionality enabled.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: GendoIkari on June 13, 2015, 11:20:03 am
I can confirm that the password is written in the log in plain text:

Quote
WebSocketConnector: Starting receiving controller messages
 
(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/generated/common/runtime/UnityEngineDebugBindings.gen.cpp Line: 65)

Autologin method: login
 
(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/generated/common/runtime/UnityEngineDebugBindings.gen.cpp Line: 65)

LogWeb: Send Controller: {"message":"login", "clientVersion":"2.0.29", "name":"SheCantSayNo", "password":"#GokoWasBetter"}

Where is this log?

C:\Program Files (x86)\Dominion\Dominion_Data\output_log.txt

If it doesn't show up for everyone, it could be that it only shows if you have the "remember my password" and/or auto-login functionality enabled.

Thanks, found it. I guess pubby is right that this by itself isn't quite the same as having the password shown in plain-text somewhere on the server side. But just seeing it in the log makes me strongly suspect that it IS somewhere on the server side. The log message itself looks like a recording of the data that was sent to the server.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: GendoIkari on June 13, 2015, 11:22:05 am
http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?6931-We-haven-t-forgotten-you!&p=35310#post35310

I'll be willing to ride this one out and wait before denouncing anything, even if the closed beta didn't do anything.

I mean, we can't play Dominion anywhere else.

For this link and at least one other to their forum, I'm getting this message:

Quote
GendoIkari, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?

2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

Anyone know anything about this? I obviously have an account there; pretty sure I've posted before.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 13, 2015, 11:23:20 am
http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?6931-We-haven-t-forgotten-you!&p=35310#post35310

I'll be willing to ride this one out and wait before denouncing anything, even if the closed beta didn't do anything.

I mean, we can't play Dominion anywhere else.

For this link and at least one other to their forum, I'm getting this message:

Quote
GendoIkari, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?

2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

Anyone know anything about this? I obviously have an account there; pretty sure I've posted before.

It's from the Closed Beta forums, which you would only have access to if you were invited to the Closed Beta.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 13, 2015, 11:25:53 am
Basically, a mod is saying he hasn't forgotten us, and that they're all busy.

Attached is a screenshot of his post.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 13, 2015, 11:52:09 am
Ugh, I hate to spend any amount of time defending MakingFun during this debacle, but having the plaintext password stored on your computer isn't a huge deal.  If someone already has access to your computer, they can get all your passwords saved by Chrome/FF/IE anyway.  Unless you're master-password protecting those, too, in which case, OK, I get paranoia I suppose, but xkcd exposed that insecurity years ago (https://xkcd.com/538/).

If they're sending the password plaintext insecure, that's a different problem altogether.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: SCSN on June 13, 2015, 12:43:28 pm
Ugh, I hate to spend any amount of time defending MakingFun during this debacle, but having the plaintext password stored on your computer isn't a huge deal.  If someone already has access to your computer, they can get all your passwords saved by Chrome/FF/IE anyway.  Unless you're master-password protecting those, too, in which case, OK, I get paranoia I suppose, but xkcd exposed that insecurity years ago (https://xkcd.com/538/).

If they're sending the password plaintext insecure, that's a different problem altogether.

That sounds reasonable until you realise that the file in which your password is stored in plain text is the same one you would send to MF to report a crash.

And while we all know that it's thoroughly retarded to re-use login details between different services, the reality is that people are lazy and that I just changed my PayPal password.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Chris is me on June 13, 2015, 02:18:07 pm
When I played the beta yesterday morning, it seemed... okay. It was a fair bit slower than Salvager, but I never found the deck size bug, the high resolution interface was a big improvement, and I could largely play Dominion in the same manner I could before. Sidebar would be nice, but I could make do. I was beginning to think the complaints were overstated. I was upset with how much they seemed to be rushing to close the old Dominion app, but if they fixed things then whatever I guess.

Then I tried to play again yesterday evening, and every move had a good 10-15 seconds of delay between the click and the action. I know this wasn't just me either; others playing at the same time, against bots no less, had the same problem. And now this morning I can't even complete a log in sequence (it doesn't say I can't log in, it just doesn't DO anything when I hit the button except crash sometimes).

On top of this, storing a password in plain text anywhere is completely indefensible. It's not, there's no argument here. That's appallingly insecure. I don't have anything to add, honestly - it's that simple.

I wanted to give them so much slack. It's a beta, things aren't going to work right for awhile at all. I really wanted to be patient and give them time to get everything right... but with the password thing, with how the closed beta testers were treated, I just don't really know what to think anymore. The thing that gets me is that we had a very simple and robust simulator in Isotropic years ago. We had Goko, with all of its flaws, but they had gotten it to a reasonably stable place. And now somehow we're worse off now than we were years ago. I really like this game a lot. I'm putting up with all of this shit because I'm obsessed and I love Dominion and all that. But it's really starting to not look so worth it anymore. Why is this so hard?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Elanchana on June 13, 2015, 03:15:09 pm
I'm probably not going to contribute anything to the password discussion that hasn't already been said. Right now all I can take comfort in is that every time the login lockout happens, it means they're doing something for us.

(I have trouble not comparing this to Pottermore. Their beta went down every ten minutes or so, but a few months later they were up and running really smoothly.)
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Triumph44 on June 13, 2015, 04:26:20 pm
When I played the beta yesterday morning, it seemed... okay. It was a fair bit slower than Salvager, but I never found the deck size bug, the high resolution interface was a big improvement, and I could largely play Dominion in the same manner I could before. Sidebar would be nice, but I could make do. I was beginning to think the complaints were overstated. I was upset with how much they seemed to be rushing to close the old Dominion app, but if they fixed things then whatever I guess.

Then I tried to play again yesterday evening, and every move had a good 10-15 seconds of delay between the click and the action. I know this wasn't just me either; others playing at the same time, against bots no less, had the same problem. And now this morning I can't even complete a log in sequence (it doesn't say I can't log in, it just doesn't DO anything when I hit the button except crash sometimes).

On top of this, storing a password in plain text anywhere is completely indefensible. It's not, there's no argument here. That's appallingly insecure. I don't have anything to add, honestly - it's that simple.

I wanted to give them so much slack. It's a beta, things aren't going to work right for awhile at all. I really wanted to be patient and give them time to get everything right... but with the password thing, with how the closed beta testers were treated, I just don't really know what to think anymore. The thing that gets me is that we had a very simple and robust simulator in Isotropic years ago. We had Goko, with all of its flaws, but they had gotten it to a reasonably stable place. And now somehow we're worse off now than we were years ago. I really like this game a lot. I'm putting up with all of this shit because I'm obsessed and I love Dominion and all that. But it's really starting to not look so worth it anymore. Why is this so hard?

What's most confusing is that Goko looked to be growing, even though until Adventures came out the last expansion happened in 2013.  It seemed like more people were on and playing more - at peak times the first 6 rooms were full.  And that's despite the fact that the Goko interface is clunky and dumb (the gameplay on Goko was terrific and I have very few complaints about it, everything else about the site was, IME, awful).  Now they have to silly up the graphics to pretend like we're playing Hearthstone and make you install something on your computer when people are moving away from computers.  I don't get the economic model of the online game either - if you buy all the expansions, then the site has wrung every last dollar from you, and now what incentive do they have to provide a good service?  There should be a nominal yearly fee for people who play over 100 games or something like that.

Anyway I understand it's a Beta, but good god, what a disaster this is so far.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: rspeer on June 13, 2015, 05:04:36 pm
On top of this, storing a password in plain text anywhere is completely indefensible. It's not, there's no argument here. That's appallingly insecure. I don't have anything to add, honestly - it's that simple.

I would caution against overreacting here. Have you ever saved a password in your web browser? That's plain text.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: jsh357 on June 13, 2015, 05:24:56 pm
When I played the beta yesterday morning, it seemed... okay. It was a fair bit slower than Salvager, but I never found the deck size bug, the high resolution interface was a big improvement, and I could largely play Dominion in the same manner I could before. Sidebar would be nice, but I could make do. I was beginning to think the complaints were overstated. I was upset with how much they seemed to be rushing to close the old Dominion app, but if they fixed things then whatever I guess.

Then I tried to play again yesterday evening, and every move had a good 10-15 seconds of delay between the click and the action. I know this wasn't just me either; others playing at the same time, against bots no less, had the same problem. And now this morning I can't even complete a log in sequence (it doesn't say I can't log in, it just doesn't DO anything when I hit the button except crash sometimes).

On top of this, storing a password in plain text anywhere is completely indefensible. It's not, there's no argument here. That's appallingly insecure. I don't have anything to add, honestly - it's that simple.

I wanted to give them so much slack. It's a beta, things aren't going to work right for awhile at all. I really wanted to be patient and give them time to get everything right... but with the password thing, with how the closed beta testers were treated, I just don't really know what to think anymore. The thing that gets me is that we had a very simple and robust simulator in Isotropic years ago. We had Goko, with all of its flaws, but they had gotten it to a reasonably stable place. And now somehow we're worse off now than we were years ago. I really like this game a lot. I'm putting up with all of this shit because I'm obsessed and I love Dominion and all that. But it's really starting to not look so worth it anymore. Why is this so hard?

What's most confusing is that Goko looked to be growing, even though until Adventures came out the last expansion happened in 2013.  It seemed like more people were on and playing more - at peak times the first 6 rooms were full.  And that's despite the fact that the Goko interface is clunky and dumb (the gameplay on Goko was terrific and I have very few complaints about it, everything else about the site was, IME, awful).  Now they have to silly up the graphics to pretend like we're playing Hearthstone and make you install something on your computer when people are moving away from computers.  I don't get the economic model of the online game either - if you buy all the expansions, then the site has wrung every last dollar from you, and now what incentive do they have to provide a good service? There should be a nominal yearly fee for people who play over 100 games or something like that.

Anyway I understand it's a Beta, but good god, what a disaster this is so far.

The second bolded part answers the first bolded part... they probably weren't making more money even though there were more people playing.  A lot of the same users who bought years ago are still playing now.

I personally think MF is between a rock and a hard place on this.  The business model Goko started is clearly unsustainable without the microtransactions they first pushed for with Zaps etc, but now to be fair to us older users MF can't really change the model and fix it.  Their only way to profit is to get a ton of people to buy sets now and increase the price. (which they've apparently done?) 
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Awaclus on June 13, 2015, 05:39:21 pm
I personally think MF is between a rock and a hard place on this.  The business model Goko started is clearly unsustainable without the microtransactions they first pushed for with Zaps etc, but now to be fair to us older users MF can't really change the model and fix it.  Their only way to profit is to get a ton of people to buy sets now and increase the price. (which they've apparently done?)

Well, they could start selling other stuff, like skins or different card backs or extra avatars or something. Or they could show ads for base-only players.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Triumph44 on June 13, 2015, 05:40:14 pm
What's most confusing is that Goko looked to be growing, even though until Adventures came out the last expansion happened in 2013.  It seemed like more people were on and playing more - at peak times the first 6 rooms were full.  And that's despite the fact that the Goko interface is clunky and dumb (the gameplay on Goko was terrific and I have very few complaints about it, everything else about the site was, IME, awful).  Now they have to silly up the graphics to pretend like we're playing Hearthstone and make you install something on your computer when people are moving away from computers.  I don't get the economic model of the online game either - if you buy all the expansions, then the site has wrung every last dollar from you, and now what incentive do they have to provide a good service? There should be a nominal yearly fee for people who play over 100 games or something like that.

Anyway I understand it's a Beta, but good god, what a disaster this is so far.

The second bolded part answers the first bolded part... they probably weren't making more money even though there were more people playing.  A lot of the same users who bought years ago are still playing now.

I personally think MF is between a rock and a hard place on this.  The business model Goko started is clearly unsustainable without the microtransactions they first pushed for with Zaps etc, but now to be fair to us older users MF can't really change the model and fix it.  Their only way to profit is to get a ton of people to buy sets now and increase the price. (which they've apparently done?)

Their business model doesn't work, so now they are just going to double down on it?  It makes zero sense.  Their way to sustain themselves is to charge people who often use the site, people like me who are willing to pay.  I understand that microtransactions have worked on other games, but this is a card game that exists independent of the online site.  I just don't see how raising prices on sets will make the site profitable long-term; if there are people who've used the site for a while but who haven't bought expansions, they're now less likely to buy them, and is there really going to be a large influx of new players?  I guess that's the idea by building it like Hearthstone, but it doesn't seem like a good plan - it's almost like a pyramid scheme, where new users pay for the old ones.  Doesn't usually work out well.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: jsh357 on June 13, 2015, 06:03:55 pm
I didn't say it was a good way to profit, just one of their only options.

Sure, they could add microtransactions like Awaclus mentions.  However, I don't think most users would pay for virtual hats or the pretty base cards.  Some hardcore fans, but not many.  I know I wouldn't.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 13, 2015, 07:03:04 pm
I'd pay about 30 a year for Dominion Online. And I would pay money for the exclusive right to customize your avatar, change your text color in chat, and the ability to create private rooms.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: mameluke on June 13, 2015, 07:07:58 pm
Of course, I would also pay money for Isotropic.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: markusin on June 13, 2015, 11:22:09 pm
Ugh, I hate to spend any amount of time defending MakingFun during this debacle, but having the plaintext password stored on your computer isn't a huge deal.  If someone already has access to your computer, they can get all your passwords saved by Chrome/FF/IE anyway.  Unless you're master-password protecting those, too, in which case, OK, I get paranoia I suppose, but xkcd exposed that insecurity years ago (https://xkcd.com/538/).

If they're sending the password plaintext insecure, that's a different problem altogether.

That sounds reasonable until you realise that the file in which your password is stored in plain text is the same one you would send to MF to report a crash.

And while we all know that it's thoroughly retarded to re-use login details between different services, the reality is that people are lazy and that I just changed my PayPal password.

For this reason, I use different passwords for all my major web activities, which includes anything with money on the line or information about my identity. I know people who use a password management application with a master password, but I never got around to trying that.

On top of this, storing a password in plain text anywhere is completely indefensible. It's not, there's no argument here. That's appallingly insecure. I don't have anything to add, honestly - it's that simple.

I would caution against overreacting here. Have you ever saved a password in your web browser? That's plain text.
Yeah browser saved passwords are plain text last I heard. That's kind of appalling in itself, and so I don't have my browsers remember any of my passwords. But even there, at least none of the browser saved passwords ever get sent across the server. They just populate your password fields before you submit forms, right? The major danger with browser saved passwords is people using your physical machine while you're not looking.

Now I'm no security expert either, but I'm interested in the topic and may even pursue a master in information security in the near future. Does anyone know how Unity apps communicate with the server? If it's some sort of SSH connection then sending unencrypted information like passwords is bad but not a catastrophe, so long as password information is still hashed server-side.

Normal web apps use TCP/UDP protocols or whatever, whose packets can be observed quite easily by outsiders. For this reason, it's extremely important that all sensitive information be encrypted or hashed before even being sent to the server. Given the need to obfuscation the password at some point client side anyway, a normal web app (like Dominion Online V1.0) has no business to not perform the obfuscation step of the sensitive information being sent to the server before doing anything else with that information.

So it all comes down to whether or not the password is sent to the server in plain text. We can't conclusively say it does just from the log. It it doesn't, then one possibility is that the client side log is being completely generated client side with only client side input (which would mean the log is limited to non-server side issues). Another possibility is that the client receives the errors from the server and then the client side finishes writing the log. This second possibility is quite nonsensical to me as the client application can just save the obfuscated password to the log at that point and cannot send the log report back to the client with the plain text password without resulting in a security breach.

Like SCSN, I'm very skeptical about this plain text password revelation as it appears in a log file. It even logs errors, right? That's something of value to the server-side administration.

You know, I was out of the loop on the whole open beta thing, only finding out about it about 2 hours ago. Man, I was even having trouble downloading the thing. It seemed like it was freezing up my network connection on my computer, and failed to download anyway. Now I read through this thread and well these failings of Dominion Online are amusing at this point.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on June 14, 2015, 01:40:02 am
After playing few games, the login screen started freezing for me. So I decided to investigate a little. Apparently the program tries to write into C:\Program Files (x86)\Dominion\Dominion_Data. Great. Let's run it as administrator. Probably the first program launch after the instalation was done with the administrator privileges. Now the screen doesn't freeze, just nothing happens after clicking the "Sign in" button.
What's in the logs?
Quote
WebSocketException: A timeout has occurred while reading an HTTP request/response
Nothing new. Just like with 1.0, the servers can't handle the traffic.

What's more interesting is that in the logs I can find password in plain text. The whole network communication is also logged. :-\
Quote
LogWeb: Send Controller: {"message":"login", "clientVersion":"2.0.29", "name":"matste", "password":"********"}

Goko was better.

As someone who often wears a Sys Admin hat, I reserve a special kind of disdain for developers who ignore OS best practices when it comes to file locations and permissions. There's just no excuse in 2015 for an end-user Windows application that writes to C:\Program Files.

The password stuff doesn't look good but I'll reserve judgment on that until someone shows that they are being transmitted in plain text.

I finally got the app to work last night and played through a bit of the campaign. I must say it was much better than the last iteration of Goko that I used. It was nice to be able to install it tonight on a different machine and pick up where I left off, but then it started getting really laggy until it crashed altogether 30 or so minutes ago. Is this regular periodic downtime?

I seriously doubt I'll ever pay for this. On the other hand the price I'd be willing to pay to have Isotropic back just keeps going up.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: pubby on June 14, 2015, 01:56:46 am
Now I'm no security expert either, but I'm interested in the topic and may even pursue a master in information security in the near future. Does anyone know how Unity apps communicate with the server?  If it's some sort of SSH connection then sending unencrypted information like passwords is bad but not a catastrophe, so long as password information is still hashed server-side.
Looking at strace output: everything is being sent through SSL, just as expected. This is good and correct.

If it's some sort of SSH connection then sending unencrypted information like passwords is bad but not a catastrophe, so long as password information is still hashed server-side.
If it's sent through SSH (or SSL) then it wouldn't be "unencrypted information"...

Again, so we don't have MF's word on anything yet, so can we please stop spreading all this FUD?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 14, 2015, 02:24:15 am
Now I'm no security expert either, but I'm interested in the topic and may even pursue a master in information security in the near future. Does anyone know how Unity apps communicate with the server?  If it's some sort of SSH connection then sending unencrypted information like passwords is bad but not a catastrophe, so long as password information is still hashed server-side.
Looking at strace output: everything is being sent through SSL, just as expected. This is good and correct.

If it's some sort of SSH connection then sending unencrypted information like passwords is bad but not a catastrophe, so long as password information is still hashed server-side.
If it's sent through SSH (or SSL) then it wouldn't be "unencrypted information"...

Again, so we don't have MF's word on anything yet, so can we please stop spreading all this FUD?

I know I'm guilty of this, and I'm trying not to be. I want to give these guys a fair shot.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Moneymodel on June 14, 2015, 02:30:29 am
I'm able to download and open it, but I can't sign in. And the taskbar doesn't jump right out when I linger my cursor at the bottom of the screen, so I have to do Ctrl Alt Del. It's unfortunate, but I still look forward to downloading a functional one.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: rspeer on June 14, 2015, 02:53:17 am
In a fit of masochism, I decided to try it, and encountered the same thing. I had to ctrl-alt-del multiple times because somehow, while completely crashed, it still managed to repeatedly pop itself to the front when I tried to use Task Manager.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: matste on June 14, 2015, 03:03:14 am
It seems that what I found in the logs generated a lot of mistrust in MF abilities. I want to clarify that I also don't think it's a big deal. It can only be harmful if: a) You reuse your sensitive passwords for small places like Goko and b) A bad guy (investigating you individually) gains acces to your  computer. However, if you are in a habit of reusing sensitive passwords, then the bad guys probably have easier ways to access them, like your browser data. From what I see, the application verifies passwords like 99.99% of websites do: it sends them to the server in plain text, over an encrypted connection. So there's no fundametal flaw in the architecture.

When you decide to switch from a web-based application to a standalone program, you need to rethink some security issues. Unfortunatelly, sensitive data leaking into local logs is only one of many things that can go wrong. Your program can do more harm to your clients' machines than your website can.

I wonder how the application is going to update itself. How did you, betatesters, switch between releases?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: jsh357 on June 14, 2015, 07:57:49 am
They released new installers for each update.  No clue if the game auto-updates now.  I wouldn't count on it?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: cactus on June 14, 2015, 08:48:10 am
O.M.G.

Just read the whole thread. So depressing.

Can't ... believe ... we're back here ...
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 14, 2015, 09:19:56 am
They released new installers for each update.  No clue if the game auto-updates now.  I wouldn't count on it?

Really?  /sigh
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: markusin on June 14, 2015, 10:50:13 am
Now I'm no security expert either, but I'm interested in the topic and may even pursue a master in information security in the near future. Does anyone know how Unity apps communicate with the server?  If it's some sort of SSH connection then sending unencrypted information like passwords is bad but not a catastrophe, so long as password information is still hashed server-side.
Looking at strace output: everything is being sent through SSL, just as expected. This is good and correct.

If it's some sort of SSH connection then sending unencrypted information like passwords is bad but not a catastrophe, so long as password information is still hashed server-side.
If it's sent through SSH (or SSL) then it wouldn't be "unencrypted information"...

Again, so we don't have MF's word on anything yet, so can we please stop spreading all this FUD?
Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding and any doubt I could have caused. I didn't know it was standard practice to let SSL handle the encryption of the plaintext password when sending it to the server. I figured there would still be an intermediate step where the client encrypts the password with the public key or something before the message passing process for the password.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: markusin on June 14, 2015, 12:08:57 pm
Okay, so I tried out Dominion Online V2, but only had the patience to play one game against the bot. You know, I think I would have enjoyed the experience a lot more if it weren't for the choppy animations and what appeared to be lag. At halfway max speed setting, I barely got a chance to see what my opponent was gaining. Maybe V1's shoving the cards your opponent gained in your face every time was a bit obnoxious, but here I would probably need the log to keep track of all my opponent's gains. I don't particularly mind the bells and whistles with the sparkles everywhere, but would want to have the option to disable them if it's not already implemented somewhere. The sparkly colours around the cards you have the option to interact with (playing, trashing, topdecking, etc.) is a nice plus for me.

I think they didn't properly solve the max 10 cards on one page issue properly. I would have preferred it if they only expanded the first page to show 12 kingdom cards if there are additional supply piles like ruins or the Young Witch bane. Instead, It fills up those slots with whatever it can. The game I payed against the AI had Mercenary and Diadem on the first page, which was confusing because Both Urchin and Tournament were in the Black Market deck. I found it a bit weird when I had to select a prize to gain when one of them was on a different page from the rest.

But like, at its core V2 has the V1 game-play that I had gotten used to. I hope that the performance issues I was experiencing will be addressed in due time, say before V1 is discontinued. If they are, then I'd be happy continuing my Dominion Online journey through V2.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 14, 2015, 01:30:43 pm
Has there been any indication that the doubling of cost was intentional?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on June 14, 2015, 02:46:03 pm
Has there been any indication that the doubling of cost was intentional?

The exchange rates can be a bit confusing. The governments involved aren't terribly stable.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: ben_king on June 14, 2015, 04:58:37 pm
Now I'm no security expert either, but I'm interested in the topic and may even pursue a master in information security in the near future. Does anyone know how Unity apps communicate with the server?  If it's some sort of SSH connection then sending unencrypted information like passwords is bad but not a catastrophe, so long as password information is still hashed server-side.
Looking at strace output: everything is being sent through SSL, just as expected. This is good and correct.

If it's some sort of SSH connection then sending unencrypted information like passwords is bad but not a catastrophe, so long as password information is still hashed server-side.
If it's sent through SSH (or SSL) then it wouldn't be "unencrypted information"...

Again, so we don't have MF's word on anything yet, so can we please stop spreading all this FUD?
Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding and any doubt I could have caused. I didn't know it was standard practice to let SSL handle the encryption of the plaintext password when sending it to the server. I figured there would still be an intermediate step where the client encrypts the password with the public key or something before the message passing process for the password.


Everyone should be glad to know that MakingFun definitely does not send passwords in plaintext.  I ran a packet sniffer on Dominion v2.0.  It uses SSL and doesn't submit anything other than DNS requests in plain text.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Throwaway_bicycling on June 14, 2015, 05:36:09 pm
They released new installers for each update.  No clue if the game auto-updates now.  I wouldn't count on it?

Really?  /sigh

Okay; so it looks like the Mac version on offer is still dominion_v2-0-29.dmg, which is the one that sucked hard when I tried it on Friday evening. I tried the application just now, but it is unable to locate opponents for me, even when I specify bots. Is anybody actually able to play the beta now?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 14, 2015, 05:38:18 pm
They released new installers for each update.  No clue if the game auto-updates now.  I wouldn't count on it?

Really?  /sigh

Okay; so it looks like the Mac version on offer is still dominion_v2-0-29.dmg, which is the one that sucked hard when I tried it on Friday evening. I tried the application just now, but it is unable to locate opponents for me, even when I specify bots. Is anybody actually able to play the beta now?

I don't know. I refuse to play until it gets updated. Closed Beta members specified these bugs since the beginning, and they haven't been fixed yet.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: IanP on June 14, 2015, 06:11:15 pm
I'm unable to start a game tonight...  Are MF updating, has the game crashed, or is there another problem?

I've also noted that the game has doubled in price since last week.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: enfynet on June 14, 2015, 06:32:04 pm
I'm unable to start a game tonight...  Are MF updating, has the game crashed, or is there another problem?

I've also noted that the game has doubled in price since last week.
I noticed that as well. I may not buy the online version after all. I could spend that money and sleeve all my IRL cards in premium sleeves.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Throwaway_bicycling on June 14, 2015, 08:12:37 pm
I'm unable to start a game tonight...  Are MF updating, has the game crashed, or is there another problem?

I've also noted that the game has doubled in price since last week.
I noticed that as well. I may not buy the online version after all. I could spend that money and sleeve all my IRL cards in premium sleeves.
So if you do...I have to point out that I have been disappointed in the performance of the Mayday premium sleeves. They look tough, but have a significant split failure rate.

Concerning the price of the alleged online version: you know, I would pay that doubled price again (already own it once) if the thing actually worked. I mean, if you count only rated games I have played, these are down to $0.25 each, and, sure, I would totally pay that forever for a quality client. So I am guessing that many would only pay, oh, a nickel ($0.05 US) per game. But that would still cover the cost of all of the things, so far as I could tell. If they had a platform you could play on.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Polk5440 on June 14, 2015, 11:24:57 pm
I'm unable to start a game tonight...  Are MF updating, has the game crashed, or is there another problem?

I've also noted that the game has doubled in price since last week.
I noticed that as well. I may not buy the online version after all. I could spend that money and sleeve all my IRL cards in premium sleeves.
So if you do...I have to point out that I have been disappointed in the performance of the Mayday premium sleeves. They look tough, but have a significant split failure rate.

Concerning the price of the alleged online version: you know, I would pay that doubled price again (already own it once) if the thing actually worked. I mean, if you count only rated games I have played, these are down to $0.25 each, and, sure, I would totally pay that forever for a quality client. So I am guessing that many would only pay, oh, a nickel ($0.05 US) per game. But that would still cover the cost of all of the things, so far as I could tell. If they had a platform you could play on.

You and only a handful of other people. At that price a whole host of other board game apps, not to mention video games, becomes very attractive to me.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: cactus on June 14, 2015, 11:32:38 pm
Has there been any indication that the doubling of cost was intentional?

If it was / is intentional it seems like a bit of poor form. If the price was going to double they really should have promoted it. Something like "order now - prices must rise at the start of the next financial year" or something of that sort. They could have put the message where they have the advert that says "New Item - Dominion Giulds!"

No price rises since the original was released and then doubling the price overnight. It's like they're setting out to piss off potential customers.

Disclaimer: I already own all of the (available) sets.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on June 15, 2015, 01:08:51 am
You and only a handful of other people. At that price a whole host of other board game apps, not to mention video games, becomes very attractive to me.

It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Donald X. on June 15, 2015, 03:07:19 am
It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline.
Good news! This amazing game, that so many people have paid $45 for a physical copy of, that won so many awards around the world and spawned so many rip-offs, is available online for the low low price of $0. It's completely free. And if you don't believe me just go on now and play it. For sure it's not going to get cheaper than free (insert joke about how they'd have to pay you to play the beta).

It's popular to think that whatever you want should just be yours. It's popular to think that someone else's 10 years of work is worth exactly as much as their zero years of work. A board game with 5 expansions is worth exactly as much as a board game with 10 expansions; the expansions, they're something you're owed, not something you pay for. I hope your time hasn't been spent as worthlessly as mine has! I made all these expansions, as if they were worth buying, as if they weren't just hurting an existing product by making it more expensive to have everything.

I have given this speech before! The game is free; if you want to complain about price, there is only the price of individual expansions to complain about, and complaining about the total is like saying an author wrote too many books, a band put out too many albums.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Beyond Awesome on June 15, 2015, 06:13:37 am
I don't think doubling price is a bad idea. However, they should have given some warning, if even a two-week notice. $90 seems like a lot, but there are a lot of expansions, and they should charge what they want. If people aren't happy, they don't have to buy. I do think the real money is withe iOS, Droid market. And, that market likes things cheap. So, yah, I'm not sure what their plan is just yet. Maybe ads for people who don't play. A trailer that plays on your phone before you can play. Although, if they do this, they should also bring down the prices.

Oh, and btw, I wouldn't spend a dime on the current POS version they released. I thought Goko was bad, but man...
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: SCSN on June 15, 2015, 06:33:04 am
$90 for lifetime access to a rock-solid, fully functional online Dominion implementation is more than acceptable, but doubling the price for what you get right now (including serious doubts about the longevity of the project) is a truly baffling decision.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Chris is me on June 15, 2015, 09:59:19 am
Now I'm no security expert either, but I'm interested in the topic and may even pursue a master in information security in the near future. Does anyone know how Unity apps communicate with the server?  If it's some sort of SSH connection then sending unencrypted information like passwords is bad but not a catastrophe, so long as password information is still hashed server-side.
Looking at strace output: everything is being sent through SSL, just as expected. This is good and correct.

If it's some sort of SSH connection then sending unencrypted information like passwords is bad but not a catastrophe, so long as password information is still hashed server-side.
If it's sent through SSH (or SSL) then it wouldn't be "unencrypted information"...

Again, so we don't have MF's word on anything yet, so can we please stop spreading all this FUD?
Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding and any doubt I could have caused. I didn't know it was standard practice to let SSL handle the encryption of the plaintext password when sending it to the server. I figured there would still be an intermediate step where the client encrypts the password with the public key or something before the message passing process for the password.


Everyone should be glad to know that MakingFun definitely does not send passwords in plaintext.  I ran a packet sniffer on Dominion v2.0.  It uses SSL and doesn't submit anything other than DNS requests in plain text.

While it's possible I jumped the gun on criticism here, I was more worried about whether or not the client log was sent over SSL as it apparently contains the user password.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Witherweaver on June 15, 2015, 10:09:09 am
Does the $90 model give you access to Adventures once it is released?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: LastFootnote on June 15, 2015, 10:23:59 am
It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline.
Good news! This amazing game, that so many people have paid $45 for a physical copy of, that won so many awards around the world and spawned so many rip-offs, is available online for the low low price of $0. It's completely free. And if you don't believe me just go on now and play it. For sure it's not going to get cheaper than free (insert joke about how they'd have to pay you to play the beta).

It's popular to think that whatever you want should just be yours. It's popular to think that someone else's 10 years of work is worth exactly as much as their zero years of work. A board game with 5 expansions is worth exactly as much as a board game with 10 expansions; the expansions, they're something you're owed, not something you pay for. I hope your time hasn't been spent as worthlessly as mine has! I made all these expansions, as if they were worth buying, as if they weren't just hurting an existing product by making it more expensive to have everything.

I have given this speech before! The game is free; if you want to complain about price, there is only the price of individual expansions to complain about, and complaining about the total is like saying an author wrote too many books, a band put out too many albums.

I agree with SCSN that, for the amount of enjoyment I get out of the Dominion expansions, a one-time payment of $90 is a steal. But I am not most people. Making Fun's current prices seem divorced from the reality of the market. It seems almost impossible to believe they will get more revenue from a few people buying really expensive (for the market) expansions than they would from a ton of people buying much cheaper expansions.

I am sick of hearing people complain about the total price of the expansions. I wonder if perhaps it would be better if Making Fun did not offer packaged deals at all; if each expansion needed to be bought individually. That would remove some of the sticker shock.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Elanchana on June 15, 2015, 10:42:42 am
Even though I'm speaking from already having bought the expansions on Goko, I'd much rather pay $90 to have every single card online than $300 for them IRL. It's not as cheap as $45, but it's still a steal... with a working system.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 15, 2015, 10:51:05 am
Thankfully I don't have to worry, because I already paid for the expansions!

The fun I had was worth the $90 though. Does it suck to pay $90 instead of $45? Well, yes. But that's how the market works.

Don't worry Donald, I've only got Alchemy, Guilds and Intrigue before I complete my collection.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: pacovf on June 15, 2015, 11:04:42 am
Does it suck to pay $90 instead of $45? Well, yes. But that's how the market works.

Pretty sure that's not how the market works, because that would imply that there are people actually paying those 90$. Instead of, you know, spending that same amount of money on a dozen or more games on Steam, or playing whatever other currently popular F2P card game.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 15, 2015, 11:06:09 am
Does it suck to pay $90 instead of $45? Well, yes. But that's how the market works.

Pretty sure that's not how the market works, because that would imply that there are people actually paying those 90$. Instead of, you know, spending that same amount of money on a dozen or more games on Steam, or playing whatever other currently popular F2P card game.

Well, nah. That is how the market works. People can set whatever price they please. Whether people will buy it or not though is the issue. Well, most of us hardcore players have the sets already, and they're not going to milk more money out of us. Then again, where else can you play Dominion online? Nowhere, they have a monopoly of sorts. Of sorts. What other game could you buy with $90?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: pacovf on June 15, 2015, 11:30:56 am
Does it suck to pay $90 instead of $45? Well, yes. But that's how the market works.

Pretty sure that's not how the market works, because that would imply that there are people actually paying those 90$. Instead of, you know, spending that same amount of money on a dozen or more games on Steam, or playing whatever other currently popular F2P card game.

Well, actually you're wrong. That is how the market works. People can set whatever price they please.

I can attempt to sell a regular Bic pen on eBay for 1000$. That's not an example of the market working.

I don't have anything against MF charging however much they please for whatever they want. But Dominion online doesn't exist in a vacuum. Ignoring the market is going to hurt them.

If, despite what everything seems to point towards, they have studied the (purposefully obscure) market and assessed that increasing the expansions prices is the move that is going to increase their revenues the most, then all the more power to them! But somehow I doubt it.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 15, 2015, 11:54:19 am
For pricing, I'm going to offer Ascension as a comparison.

It's a bad comparison for a number of gameplay reasons, including complexity per expansion (higher for Dominion) and apparent content per expansion (lower for Dominion).  But the fact that it's a bad comparison doesn't matter for the sorts of people MF is (presumably and apparently) trying to cater to--casual players.

The online-conversion comparison is pretty good though, if we ignore gameplay.  Currently, Dominion is available only on Win/OSX/Linux, and Ascension is only available on iOS/Android; both allow for cross-platform play.  The Ascension implementation is a bit more polished than current Goko v1 without Salvager.  More extensive comparisons are difficult, but I think that's a good summary.

Like Dominion, the Ascension base game is available for free.

Ascension has six expansions which cost $2 (one early small expansion), $3 (most of them) and $4 (one large expansion), and four promos (multiple cards each) for $1 each.

Dominion has eight expansions which cost--well, I can't see the cost since I've already purchased them, but I'm assuming from the $90 "total" cost that they're $6 (small), $12 (standard), and $18 (DA and likely Adventures), with six promos (one card) for $2 each.

Even ignoring the fact that I have to do math to convert dollars to ducats to expansions, as a casual player, there's not even a choice there.

$6 for an expansion of 13 cards (Alchemy) is trying to compete with $2 for an expansion of 30 cards (RotF).  DA at $18 has 35 cards, and is competing with Ascension's RoV at $4 for 45 cards.

"But," you say, "any given group of 5 Dominion cards has more complexity than 25 Ascension cards!"  Very good, you've identified yourself as a non-casual player, and you are not the main market.

LF hit it on the head:  Making Fun's new prices are divorced from reality.

Now... this isn't really my problem, on some level.  But if MF wants to succeed, increasing prices is not the place to start.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: GendoIkari on June 15, 2015, 01:01:03 pm
Does it suck to pay $90 instead of $45? Well, yes. But that's how the market works.

Pretty sure that's not how the market works, because that would imply that there are people actually paying those 90$. Instead of, you know, spending that same amount of money on a dozen or more games on Steam, or playing whatever other currently popular F2P card game.

Well, actually you're wrong. That is how the market works. People can set whatever price they please.

I can attempt to sell a regular Bic pen on eBay for 1000$. That's not an example of the market working.

I don't have anything against MF charging however much they please for whatever they want. But Dominion online doesn't exist in a vacuum. Ignoring the market is going to hurt them.

If, despite what everything seems to point towards, they have studied the (purposefully obscure) market and assessed that increasing the expansions prices is the move that is going to increase their revenues the most, then all the more power to them! But somehow I doubt it.

This makes me realize something. One thing that makes Dominion Online different than either real-life Dominion or many other computer games out there is that the more people who buy it; the better it gets for everyone who has it. If Dominion Online might be worth $90 to me, but that is only true if is is also worth $90 to lots of other people. The less people who buy it, the worse the entire experience is. This is true both because 1) there would be more people and a higher variety of people to play against, and 2) because more people means that they are more successful meaning that they have more resources to improve and polish and maintain the system.

What this means is that by charging more, and thus presumably lowering the number of people who sign up, they are making it worth less than it would be otherwise. In other words, if they charged only $10 for it then it might be so good that it is worth $90. But if they charge $90 then it might not be as good and only feel like it's worth $10. So the trick is to find that balance of course. Maybe $90 is the balance, who knows. But it's at least worth considering that the higher the price, the worse the product (even independent of price considerations).
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on June 15, 2015, 10:25:23 pm
It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline.
Good news! This amazing game, that so many people have paid $45 for a physical copy of, that won so many awards around the world and spawned so many rip-offs, is available online for the low low price of $0. It's completely free. And if you don't believe me just go on now and play it. For sure it's not going to get cheaper than free (insert joke about how they'd have to pay you to play the beta).

It's popular to think that whatever you want should just be yours. It's popular to think that someone else's 10 years of work is worth exactly as much as their zero years of work. A board game with 5 expansions is worth exactly as much as a board game with 10 expansions; the expansions, they're something you're owed, not something you pay for. I hope your time hasn't been spent as worthlessly as mine has! I made all these expansions, as if they were worth buying, as if they weren't just hurting an existing product by making it more expensive to have everything.

I have given this speech before! The game is free; if you want to complain about price, there is only the price of individual expansions to complain about, and complaining about the total is like saying an author wrote too many books, a band put out too many albums.

You're missing the point. I'm not complaining about having to pay for Dominion. Nor am I complaining about having to pay per expansion. I'm just saying the pricing is more than I'm willing to pay given what the product offers.

I think that's a completely fair stance for a prospective customer to have and it seems odd for you to belittle it.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: blueblimp on June 15, 2015, 11:50:57 pm
For pricing, I'm going to offer Ascension as a comparison.
This is a nice place to start, but I think there is a huge difference between Ascension and Dominion that has nothing (directly) to do with gameplay. Dominion is way more popular. Ascension, although a physical card game originally, is in my mind notable mostly for having had a really good iOS app back when there were a lot fewer high-quality iOS board game apps. Although this is just my perception, the numbers back it up: on BGG, Dominion has 43k ratings, while Ascension has just 7k, almost an order of magnitude less.

For that reason, I don't think Dominion really needs to compete with the likes of Ascension on price. It can compete on having a stronger brand.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Accatitippi on June 16, 2015, 02:23:43 am
For pricing, I'm going to offer Ascension as a comparison.
This is a nice place to start, but I think there is a huge difference between Ascension and Dominion that has nothing (directly) to do with gameplay. Dominion is way more popular. Ascension, although a physical card game originally, is in my mind notable mostly for having had a really good iOS app back when there were a lot fewer high-quality iOS board game apps. Although this is just my perception, the numbers back it up: on BGG, Dominion has 43k ratings, while Ascension has just 7k, almost an order of magnitude less.

For that reason, I don't think Dominion really needs to compete with the likes of Ascension on price. It can compete on having a stronger brand.

But the stronger brand doesn't work on the target audience, which seems to be very casual. (or casual enough as to not strongly prefer playing Dominion over Ascension)
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Donald X. on June 16, 2015, 03:31:34 am
It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline.
Good news! This amazing game, that so many people have paid $45 for a physical copy of, that won so many awards around the world and spawned so many rip-offs, is available online for the low low price of $0. It's completely free. And if you don't believe me just go on now and play it. For sure it's not going to get cheaper than free (insert joke about how they'd have to pay you to play the beta).

It's popular to think that whatever you want should just be yours. It's popular to think that someone else's 10 years of work is worth exactly as much as their zero years of work. A board game with 5 expansions is worth exactly as much as a board game with 10 expansions; the expansions, they're something you're owed, not something you pay for. I hope your time hasn't been spent as worthlessly as mine has! I made all these expansions, as if they were worth buying, as if they weren't just hurting an existing product by making it more expensive to have everything.

I have given this speech before! The game is free; if you want to complain about price, there is only the price of individual expansions to complain about, and complaining about the total is like saying an author wrote too many books, a band put out too many albums.

You're missing the point. I'm not complaining about having to pay for Dominion. Nor am I complaining about having to pay per expansion. I'm just saying the pricing is more than I'm willing to pay given what the product offers.

I think that's a completely fair stance for a prospective customer to have and it seems odd for you to belittle it.
It's totally reasonable for you to say that the price for whatever it is you want is more than what you want to pay for it. But that's not what you said. I replied to what you actually said, not to what you are now saying you said.

You said, "It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline."

Dominion is free, not $90. Dominion plus all the expansions has a cost that depends on how many expansions there are; the total is not a meaningful number. If there were ten times as many expansions it would be ten times as much. If there were no expansions at all, it would be $0.

If you would like to communicate "I'm just saying the pricing is more than I'm willing to pay given what the product offers" then I recommend using those words, rather than "It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline."
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: thespaceinvader on June 16, 2015, 06:00:42 am
Well, nah. That is how the market works. People can set whatever price they please. Whether people will buy it or not though is the issue. Well, most of us hardcore players have the sets already, and they're not going to milk more money out of us. Then again, where else can you play Dominion online? Nowhere, they have a monopoly of sorts. Of sorts. What other game could you buy with $90?
I don't know about you, but I can and have bought Carcassonne, Galaxy Trucker, and Suburbia's excellent apps, and could add a number of others including Ticket to Ride if I felt like it, and could still afford a decent meal out at a restaurant with my $90.  And I'm on a small-screen Droid, so I get the short end of the stick when it comes to boardgame apps; iThingies are much better supported.  This is the commonest model for online boardgame pricing - $5 for an app, maybe $1 or $2 for an expansion as an in-app purchase.

I'm also a premium member of Boardgame Arena and Boite a Jeux, but those are both free to play if you don't care about the premium features.  The total cost of thosetwo plus all the apps noted above, per annum, is STILL less than $90 (but the BGA and BAJ prices are annual subscriptions, of course).  And they get me access to tens if not hundreds of games including some really big name, high-end, high-quality ones.  So indeed, membership of a big site with multiple game, which is free for basic membership and you can buy premium membership is probably actually the most common model, given the number of games on BAJ, BGA, and BSW among others.

And perhaps more to the point, I could get one, maybe two high-quality real-life games for $90.  Or two-ish hard-copy dominion expansions.

On another note, I appreciate that the base set is free (though, I still won't play this version even given that it's free; it's too slow, too buggy, and the animations annoy me too much).  But it seems evident from this thread, that people don't take the freeness of the base set into account when considering the price, either because people don't think the base set alone is worth playing much (and I can see that point), or because people want the 'whole game' and don't consider just the base set to be that, or because people expect to pay *something* so they don't consider the free part at all.  I don't know.  So, it seems clear that the dominant idea of what the game costs, isn't $0.  Given that, I can't help but wonder whether a different pricing model might deliver better returns.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Polk5440 on June 16, 2015, 06:53:37 am
Well, nah. That is how the market works. People can set whatever price they please. Whether people will buy it or not though is the issue. Well, most of us hardcore players have the sets already, and they're not going to milk more money out of us. Then again, where else can you play Dominion online? Nowhere, they have a monopoly of sorts. Of sorts. What other game could you buy with $90?
I don't know about you, but I can and have bought Carcassonne, Galaxy Trucker, and Suburbia's excellent apps, and could add a number of others including Ticket to Ride if I felt like it, and could still afford a decent meal out at a restaurant with my $90. 

... and ALL of their expansions. Ticket to Ride (Steam) and Carcassonne (iOS) are $15 each right now for everything (and they allow offline play...).
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 16, 2015, 09:06:17 am
For pricing, I'm going to offer Ascension as a comparison.
This is a nice place to start, but I think there is a huge difference between Ascension and Dominion that has nothing (directly) to do with gameplay. Dominion is way more popular. Ascension, although a physical card game originally, is in my mind notable mostly for having had a really good iOS app back when there were a lot fewer high-quality iOS board game apps. Although this is just my perception, the numbers back it up: on BGG, Dominion has 43k ratings, while Ascension has just 7k, almost an order of magnitude less.

For that reason, I don't think Dominion really needs to compete with the likes of Ascension on price. It can compete on having a stronger brand.

You have the wrong target audience, as noted by someone else.  Ascension has over 100k downloads on Android alone.  Safe to assume at least 300k between Android and iOS... though it's possible it could be as high as a million.  But let's stick with the conservative estimate.  Let's guess that 10% have bought at least one expansion... that's 30k.

Has Dominion Online actually achieved 30k total players?  Much less paying customers?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Burning Skull on June 16, 2015, 09:44:50 am
I don't think that increased price is a problem.
But increased price plus decreased product quality (even if it is promised to be temporary) just doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: pacovf on June 16, 2015, 09:49:14 am
For pricing, I'm going to offer Ascension as a comparison.
This is a nice place to start, but I think there is a huge difference between Ascension and Dominion that has nothing (directly) to do with gameplay. Dominion is way more popular. Ascension, although a physical card game originally, is in my mind notable mostly for having had a really good iOS app back when there were a lot fewer high-quality iOS board game apps. Although this is just my perception, the numbers back it up: on BGG, Dominion has 43k ratings, while Ascension has just 7k, almost an order of magnitude less.

For that reason, I don't think Dominion really needs to compete with the likes of Ascension on price. It can compete on having a stronger brand.

You have the wrong target audience, as noted by someone else.  Ascension has over 100k downloads on Android alone.  Safe to assume at least 300k between Android and iOS... though it's possible it could be as high as a million.  But let's stick with the conservative estimate.  Let's guess that 10% have bought at least one expansion... that's 30k.

Has Dominion Online actually achieved 30k total players?  Much less paying customers?

From what I remember from reading about the F2P model, the number of paying players is usually more like 1% for game apps. On the other hand, Dominion Online can't really be compared with game apps, which usually get a lot more exposure (and downloads) than computer games.

What I am trying to say is, the comparison to Ascension has its limits.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: zporiri on June 16, 2015, 10:45:31 am
Does anyone else have the problem of not being able to click anything on the beta? The main screen comes up and I can't click anything
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on June 16, 2015, 11:24:01 am
It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline.
Good news! This amazing game, that so many people have paid $45 for a physical copy of, that won so many awards around the world and spawned so many rip-offs, is available online for the low low price of $0. It's completely free. And if you don't believe me just go on now and play it. For sure it's not going to get cheaper than free (insert joke about how they'd have to pay you to play the beta).

It's popular to think that whatever you want should just be yours. It's popular to think that someone else's 10 years of work is worth exactly as much as their zero years of work. A board game with 5 expansions is worth exactly as much as a board game with 10 expansions; the expansions, they're something you're owed, not something you pay for. I hope your time hasn't been spent as worthlessly as mine has! I made all these expansions, as if they were worth buying, as if they weren't just hurting an existing product by making it more expensive to have everything.

I have given this speech before! The game is free; if you want to complain about price, there is only the price of individual expansions to complain about, and complaining about the total is like saying an author wrote too many books, a band put out too many albums.

You're missing the point. I'm not complaining about having to pay for Dominion. Nor am I complaining about having to pay per expansion. I'm just saying the pricing is more than I'm willing to pay given what the product offers.

I think that's a completely fair stance for a prospective customer to have and it seems odd for you to belittle it.
It's totally reasonable for you to say that the price for whatever it is you want is more than what you want to pay for it. But that's not what you said. I replied to what you actually said, not to what you are now saying you said.

You said, "It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline."

Dominion is free, not $90. Dominion plus all the expansions has a cost that depends on how many expansions there are; the total is not a meaningful number. If there were ten times as many expansions it would be ten times as much. If there were no expansions at all, it would be $0.

If you would like to communicate "I'm just saying the pricing is more than I'm willing to pay given what the product offers" then I recommend using those words, rather than "It seems ridiculous to pay $90 for a board game app, especially one that doesn't allow me to play offline."

Ok, let me try again.

It seems ridiculous to me that it costs $90 if I want the ability to play with all current Dominion cards (except Adventures), especially when I can't play it offline on a device.

This seems out of line with what I am used to paying for other board game apps. It is quite unlikely I will spend any money on this app, despite being a big fan of Dominion and owning every set on paper.

I would very likely pay some non-zero amount to be able to play the base set on an offline device; I would then very likely pay some amount for each expansion provided the app was good.

Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Darth Vader on June 16, 2015, 02:18:30 pm
Why buy Dominion packs for $90 when you can watch me for $90 instead?

https://play.google.com/store/movies/details/Star_Wars_The_Digital_Movie_Collection?id=sxvuhqcICJg&hl=en
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 16, 2015, 02:23:50 pm
Why buy Dominion packs for $90 when you can watch me for $90 instead?

https://play.google.com/store/movies/details/Star_Wars_The_Digital_Movie_Collection?id=sxvuhqcICJg&hl=en

Man, did you have to include the home movies of your childhood?  That weird best friend you had as a kid annoys the piss out of pretty much everyone.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Darth Vader on June 16, 2015, 02:31:09 pm
Man, did you have to include the home movies of your childhood?  That weird best friend you had as a kid annoys the piss out of pretty much everyone.

Why do you think I left Tatooine?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: DavidTheDavid on June 16, 2015, 06:14:34 pm
Fingers crossed that we get a release out today that will resolve the server issues. I haven't seen the full release notes to know what else may be included, but keep an eye on the MF forum. There's always the chance that some oddball problem will popup when testing the new client, but again, fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 16, 2015, 06:20:11 pm
Fingers crossed that we get a release out today that will resolve the server issues. I haven't seen the full release notes to know what else may be included, but keep an eye on the MF forum. There's always the chance that some oddball problem will popup when testing the new client, but again, fingers crossed.

Here's hoping.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Witherweaver on June 16, 2015, 06:21:09 pm
Man, did you have to include the home movies of your childhood?  That weird best friend you had as a kid annoys the piss out of pretty much everyone.

Why do you think I left Tatooine?

Your signature is more impressive than Sudgy's.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Awaclus on June 16, 2015, 06:42:44 pm
Man, did you have to include the home movies of your childhood?  That weird best friend you had as a kid annoys the piss out of pretty much everyone.

Why do you think I left Tatooine?

Your signature is more impressive than Sudgy's.

Sudgy's is too short. Otherwise it would be pretty impressive.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: sudgy on June 16, 2015, 06:50:48 pm
Man, did you have to include the home movies of your childhood?  That weird best friend you had as a kid annoys the p*** out of pretty much everyone.

Why do you think I left Tatooine?

Your signature is more impressive than Sudgy's.

Sudgy's is too short. Otherwise it would be pretty impressive.

It's just the right size for me.  If it was longer, everyone with my screen resolution would see a scroll bar.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: cactus on June 16, 2015, 10:38:42 pm
I went into my favourite coffee shop today and the guy said "as of Monday we are going to be charging an extra 50c for coffee (current price $3.50 and every sixth coffee free). I said "oh, OK, thanks for letting me know".

It also helps that the coffee they serve there is good.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 16, 2015, 10:57:05 pm
I went into my favourite coffee shop today and the guy said "as of Monday we are going to be charging an extra 50c for coffee (current price $3.50 and every sixth coffee free). I said "oh, OK, thanks for letting me know".

It also helps that the coffee they serve there is good.

At least they don't serve $90.00 a cup.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: cactus on June 17, 2015, 12:08:07 am
I went into my favourite coffee shop today and the guy said "as of Monday we are going to be charging an extra 50c for coffee (current price $3.50 and every sixth coffee free). I said "oh, OK, thanks for letting me know".

It also helps that the coffee they serve there is good.

At least they don't serve $90.00 a cup.

Well. Quite. I mean my point is at least I didn't walk in for my regular after lunch cup of coffee with exactly $3.50 in my pocket only to be told "guess what? We just put the price up to $7 since yesterday. I mean I know you were here yesterday but we didn't think it worth mentioning".

The fact that this coffee shop serves nice strong non-burnt coffee and has an excellent auto-match system just makes me all the more inclined to pay a fair price for good product.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Witherweaver on June 17, 2015, 09:55:51 am
I went into my favourite coffee shop today and the guy said "as of Monday we are going to be charging an extra 50c for coffee (current price $3.50 and every sixth coffee free). I said "oh, OK, thanks for letting me know".

It also helps that the coffee they serve there is good.

Do you live in Manhattan?

Edit: Also, does automatch match you with cups of coffee, or match you with other patrons? 
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: DavidTheDavid on June 17, 2015, 08:56:24 pm
Fingers crossed that we get a release out today that will resolve the server issues. I haven't seen the full release notes to know what else may be included, but keep an eye on the MF forum. There's always the chance that some oddball problem will popup when testing the new client, but again, fingers crossed.

New release is being tested.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 17, 2015, 09:11:32 pm
Fingers crossed that we get a release out today that will resolve the server issues. I haven't seen the full release notes to know what else may be included, but keep an eye on the MF forum. There's always the chance that some oddball problem will popup when testing the new client, but again, fingers crossed.

New release is being tested.

Any idea on an ETA for it?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Joseph2302 on June 17, 2015, 09:29:34 pm
Fingers crossed that we get a release out today that will resolve the server issues. I haven't seen the full release notes to know what else may be included, but keep an eye on the MF forum. There's always the chance that some oddball problem will popup when testing the new client, but again, fingers crossed.

New release is being tested.

Any idea on an ETA for it?
2052
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: DavidTheDavid on June 17, 2015, 09:44:13 pm
Fingers crossed that we get a release out today that will resolve the server issues. I haven't seen the full release notes to know what else may be included, but keep an eye on the MF forum. There's always the chance that some oddball problem will popup when testing the new client, but again, fingers crossed.

New release is being tested.

Any idea on an ETA for it?
It's there now. :)

LordHumanton discussed an in-app alert to let people know when new versions are out. I'm not sure if that's in this one or not. THe sooner, the better.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: GendoIkari on June 17, 2015, 09:50:09 pm
Fingers crossed that we get a release out today that will resolve the server issues. I haven't seen the full release notes to know what else may be included, but keep an eye on the MF forum. There's always the chance that some oddball problem will popup when testing the new client, but again, fingers crossed.

New release is being tested.

Any idea on an ETA for it?
It's there now. :)

LordHumanton discussed an in-app alert to let people know when new versions are out. I'm not sure if that's in this one or not. THe sooner, the better.

Question for you; if someone owned one of the half-sets on Goko, how will that translate to set ownership in your system since you don't seem to have half-sets in your store?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 17, 2015, 10:19:04 pm
Fingers crossed that we get a release out today that will resolve the server issues. I haven't seen the full release notes to know what else may be included, but keep an eye on the MF forum. There's always the chance that some oddball problem will popup when testing the new client, but again, fingers crossed.

New release is being tested.

Any idea on an ETA for it?
It's there now. :)

LordHumanton discussed an in-app alert to let people know when new versions are out. I'm not sure if that's in this one or not. THe sooner, the better.

The ability to auto install updates.... well, is industry standard.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 17, 2015, 11:26:07 pm
So... What was updated?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 18, 2015, 04:52:00 am
Updates in V.2.0.30

http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?6999-Release-Notes-v-2-0-30&p=35717#post35717

Quote from: MF Guy
We have an upgrade tonight. Tonight's release (7/17/15) contains both backend and client upgrades. The main focus of the backend was stability.

This first upgrade follows 6 days from the initial release. Our schedule during the Closed Beta was to provide weekly updates containing lots of fixes and improvements. Expect this to continue throughout the Open Beta period.

CHANGES SINCE 2.0.29 (7/11/15)

Finished the tutorial (730, 1128,1144,1149)
Fixed: Spoils card has wrong numbers on top (951)
Fixed: Dame Josephine has wrong cost with Quarry (981)
Fixed: Game log showing information from previous campaign game (1039)
Signing of Mac installer to prevent "unidentified developer" warning (1044)
Fixed: No feedback about how to unlock campaigns (1123)
Fixed: Campaign flag jumps from 0 to 2 after completion (1146)
Fixed: Chat is global in results screen (1148)
Fixed: inconsistent password criteria in Forgot Password (1134)
Email verification in sign up process (1136)
After campaign, should go back to map (1145)
Fixed: Score card getting set to zeros (1150)
Fixed: Problems playing Village Bot AI in campaigns (1151)
Allow guests to enter/play Tutorial and Base Act I campaign (1153,1161)
Fixed: "Wait animation": Disconnection from the site and/or inability to connect (1154)
Fixed: Nearly always get matched with Serf Bot (1155)
Only put one rating in score card (1159)
Fixed: Price change display bug with Jack Of All Trades (1065)
Fixed bug with social-to-local form if you entered an email with caps (1171)
Fixed: Purchasing does not immediately show as unlocked (1196)
Fixed: Highlight states for Prosperity are whacky (1197)
Fixed: Error message when clicking on wagon icon in campaigns (1198)
Backend improvements or unreleased features (588, 1143, 1183)

Our plan is that the next 2-3 releases will focus on squashing bugs and then in July, it will mostly be about adding missing features and building out other platforms (web, tablet).
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: philosophyguy on June 18, 2015, 08:01:40 am
I don't see the plaintext password fix in there. Can anyone comment on whether that's been fixed?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 18, 2015, 08:44:01 am
I don't see the plaintext password fix in there. Can anyone comment on whether that's been fixed?

If you look upthread, you'll see that the password is only stored in plaintext on your machine.  It's sent via SSL and there is no real security risk unless someone has access to your computer.  And if that's the case, you have worse problems than an easily available password for an online game.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 18, 2015, 09:22:04 am
So they haven't fixed the wild, askew text?  The thing that makes it literally impossible to play the game if you don't have every card memorized?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Witherweaver on June 18, 2015, 09:29:09 am
So they haven't fixed the wild, askew text?  The thing that makes it literally impossible to play the game if you don't have every card memorized?

Just play along with your own cards at home!
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Accatitippi on June 18, 2015, 09:34:50 am
So they haven't fixed the wild, askew text?  The thing that makes it literally impossible to play the game if you don't have every card memorized?
Have you tried playing around with resolution settings? I seem to remember that it fixed the problem for some people.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: AdamH on June 18, 2015, 09:36:56 am
I don't see the plaintext password fix in there. Can anyone comment on whether that's been fixed?

If you look upthread, you'll see that the password is only stored in plaintext on your machine.  It's sent via SSL and there is no real security risk unless someone has access to your computer.  And if that's the case, you have worse problems than an easily available password for an online game.

This may be technically true, except the bolded part could be argued. On the other hand, I'm not going to touch this app again until my password is never stored in plain text anywhere.

That's really not too much to ask, and I'm not going to RE their entire app just to verify that they aren't storing or sending that password in plain text ever.

Yeah yeah, I know I'm not giving any justification for why I disagree with the idea that this isn't a "real" security risk. And I'm not going to, for security reasons (lol). Suffice it to say that I work in the computer security industry and this is my professional opinion. I also know that many people share it.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 18, 2015, 09:37:10 am
So they haven't fixed the wild, askew text?  The thing that makes it literally impossible to play the game if you don't have every card memorized?
Have you tried playing around with resolution settings? I seem to remember that it fixed the problem for some people.

Just did.  The cards are fine at 1600x900, but start going askew at 1280x720.  I guess I can play at fullscreen, but I prefer having a window I can shuffle around.  :P

Also, the deck counter bug seems to have been fixed.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Witherweaver on June 18, 2015, 09:37:59 am
Does anyone else think it's weird that I'm prompted to choose a resolution when I start it?  Why can't it, like, detect the "ideal" resolution based on monitor size, or something?  And maybe have some override settings through a config file (that can be edited through a GUI).
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 18, 2015, 09:46:03 am
Animations are still covering up numbers, though.  They have made some improvement, but I'm still going to wait another week now.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: LastFootnote on June 18, 2015, 10:01:49 am
Just tried it. The animations are much better. Right now the biggest issue is how hard it makes my computer work. This is a simple game (computation-wise) and shouldn't make my laptop's fan go into overtime. I don't think I want to put this much strain on my computer just to play Dominion online.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: sc0UT on June 18, 2015, 10:12:39 am
Someday people will stop blurring the difference between an alpha and a beta.

Quote from: Jeff (Developer)
Quote from: Steve Beal
This should not be called Beta IMO. This is barely an Alpha release.
It is technically alpha because it's feature-incomplete, but the decision was to call it beta testing, because that's more understandable to everybody.

MF Announcements Subforum (http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?6883-Version-2-Open-Beta-launch-underway&p=35715&viewfull=1#post35715)

It's real und that's sad! :( In the same sense, let's call the alphabet "letters" or "symbols" to make it more understandable to the people.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Witherweaver on June 18, 2015, 10:14:37 am
Someday people will stop blurring the difference between an alpha and a beta.

Quote from: Jeff (Developer)
Quote from: Steve Beal
This should not be called Beta IMO. This is barely an Alpha release.
It is technically alpha because it's feature-incomplete, but the decision was to call it beta testing, because that's more understandable to everybody.

MF Announcements Subforum (http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?6883-Version-2-Open-Beta-launch-underway&p=35715&viewfull=1#post35715)

It's real und that's sad! :( In the same sense, let's call the alphabet "letters" or "symbols" to make it more understandable to the people.

Clearly the alphabet should be called the betabet.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Witherweaver on June 18, 2015, 10:16:13 am
Quote
The irony of this statement is that the original feedback/criticism we got from everybody is that they wanted to be involved as early as possible in the cycle and not shut out until it was fully ready.

Kind of seems to be missing the point; calling it an alpha test or alpha preview would have made people aware that they were indeed being involved that early. 
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 18, 2015, 10:16:25 am
Just tried it. The animations are much better. Right now the biggest issue is how hard it makes my computer work. This is a simple game (computation-wise) and shouldn't make my laptop's fan go into overtime. I don't think I want to put this much strain on my computer just to play Dominion online.

I had noticed that as well.  It's not bitcoin-mining levels of strain, but it's definitely Civ V levels of strain, which is a bit ridiculous.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 18, 2015, 10:17:26 am
Someday people will stop blurring the difference between an alpha and a beta.

Quote from: Jeff (Developer)
Quote from: Steve Beal
This should not be called Beta IMO. This is barely an Alpha release.
It is technically alpha because it's feature-incomplete, but the decision was to call it beta testing, because that's more understandable to everybody.

MF Announcements Subforum (http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?6883-Version-2-Open-Beta-launch-underway&p=35715&viewfull=1#post35715)

It's real und that's sad! :( In the same sense, let's call the alphabet "letters" or "symbols" to make it more understandable to the people.

Clearly the alphabet should be called the betabet.

Or perhaps the betalph.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: funkdoc on June 18, 2015, 10:21:41 am
yeah, i still can't do anything with this until the CPU usage is fixed.  my computer is no slouch (it can stream and record lossless AVIs at the same time) yet it gets taxed to heck by this...

still, progress is progress.  here's hoping the next release makes it good enough for me to stream!
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Watno on June 18, 2015, 12:09:30 pm
Someday people will stop blurring the difference between an alpha and a beta.

Quote from: Jeff (Developer)
Quote from: Steve Beal
This should not be called Beta IMO. This is barely an Alpha release.
It is technically alpha because it's feature-incomplete, but the decision was to call it beta testing, because that's more understandable to everybody.

MF Announcements Subforum (http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?6883-Version-2-Open-Beta-launch-underway&p=35715&viewfull=1#post35715)

It's real und that's sad! :( In the same sense, let's call the alphabet "letters" or "symbols" to make it more understandable to the people.

Clearly the alphabet should be called the betabet.

Or perhaps the betalph.
I think it should be betagamm.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 18, 2015, 01:29:07 pm
Someday people will stop blurring the difference between an alpha and a beta.

Quote from: Jeff (Developer)
Quote from: Steve Beal
This should not be called Beta IMO. This is barely an Alpha release.
It is technically alpha because it's feature-incomplete, but the decision was to call it beta testing, because that's more understandable to everybody.

MF Announcements Subforum (http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?6883-Version-2-Open-Beta-launch-underway&p=35715&viewfull=1#post35715)

It's real und that's sad! :( In the same sense, let's call the alphabet "letters" or "symbols" to make it more understandable to the people.

Clearly the alphabet should be called the betabet.

Or perhaps the betalph.
I think it should be betagamm.

"I'm really awfully glad I'm a Beta."
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: pacovf on June 18, 2015, 01:42:09 pm
It's real und that's sad! :( In the same sense, let's call the alphabet "letters" or "symbols" to make it more understandable to the people.

Clearly the alphabet should be called the betabet.

Or perhaps the betalph.
I think it should be betagamm.

Or an omegapsi.

...because they are doing things backwards, you see.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: rspeer on June 18, 2015, 05:10:28 pm
This may be technically true, except the bolded part could be argued. On the other hand, I'm not going to touch this app again until my password is never stored in plain text anywhere.

That's really not too much to ask, and I'm not going to RE their entire app just to verify that they aren't storing or sending that password in plain text ever.

Okay, but I disagree. I think it's clearly acceptable for them to be doing the same thing that Chrome and Firefox do with passwords. The only thing I'd want is to make sure the password isn't saved in the log.

And it may seem like "not too much to ask", but they're clearly overwhelmed, and I would prefer that they focus on features that affect basic playability. I think the only reason this password thing became a big deal is because it reminds people of the XSS bug that Goko launched with, and it's fun to blame Goko things on MF.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: AdamH on June 18, 2015, 10:49:59 pm
Okay, but I disagree.

Of course, and I realize that not everybody shares my opinion. +1 for you :)
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on June 18, 2015, 11:16:47 pm
This may be technically true, except the bolded part could be argued. On the other hand, I'm not going to touch this app again until my password is never stored in plain text anywhere.

That's really not too much to ask, and I'm not going to RE their entire app just to verify that they aren't storing or sending that password in plain text ever.

Okay, but I disagree. I think it's clearly acceptable for them to be doing the same thing that Chrome and Firefox do with passwords. The only thing I'd want is to make sure the password isn't saved in the log.

And it may seem like "not too much to ask", but they're clearly overwhelmed, and I would prefer that they focus on features that affect basic playability. I think the only reason this password thing became a big deal is because it reminds people of the XSS bug that Goko launched with, and it's fun to blame Goko things on MF.

for what it's worth I don't believe that Chrome is saving passwords in plain text.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 18, 2015, 11:37:39 pm
Okay, but I disagree.

Of course, and I realize that not everybody shares my opinion. +1 for you :)

Man, if disagreeing with Adam is all it takes to get upvotes..

BLACK MARKET FOREVER
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: rspeer on June 19, 2015, 12:01:53 am
for what it's worth I don't believe that Chrome is saving passwords in plain text.

Go into "Settings". Click "Show advanced settings...". Click "Manage passwords". Mouse over the dots of one of your passwords and click "Show".

Chrome needs the plain text version of your password so it can submit it to a website. It can't separately negotiate with each website a way to store a hash that it will accept.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on June 19, 2015, 12:20:12 am
for what it's worth I don't believe that Chrome is saving passwords in plain text.

Go into "Settings". Click "Show advanced settings...". Click "Manage passwords". Mouse over the dots of one of your passwords and click "Show".

Chrome needs the plain text version of your password so it can submit it to a website. It can't separately negotiate with each website a way to store a hash that it will accept.
Oh sure. It can decrypt them and show them to you, but they don't exist on your hard drive unencrypted. That may or may not be a trivial difference depending on the OS level file permissions.

Let's say you and I share a computer. I log on to my user account and use Chrome and allow it to store passwords. It encrypts them and stores them in my user space with appropriate permissions. You can't get to the file where my passwords are stored, and even if you could you can't decrypt them without my user credentials.

Now consider Doninion writing usernames and passwords to a log in C:\program files (or the equivalent). If every user who uses this app is required to have permissions to that folder then every user will be able to see that log. So you or I could look in the logs and see the username and password of the other.

See the difference?

I mean, this is much less problematic (at least an order of magnitude so) than sending passwords in plain text, but it's still Not Good for certain use cases.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 19, 2015, 08:39:59 am
for what it's worth I don't believe that Chrome is saving passwords in plain text.

Go into "Settings". Click "Show advanced settings...". Click "Manage passwords". Mouse over the dots of one of your passwords and click "Show".

Chrome needs the plain text version of your password so it can submit it to a website. It can't separately negotiate with each website a way to store a hash that it will accept.
Oh sure. It can decrypt them and show them to you, but they don't exist on your hard drive unencrypted. That may or may not be a trivial difference depending on the OS level file permissions.

Let's say you and I share a computer. I log on to my user account and use Chrome and allow it to store passwords. It encrypts them and stores them in my user space with appropriate permissions. You can't get to the file where my passwords are stored, and even if you could you can't decrypt them without my user credentials.

Now consider Doninion writing usernames and passwords to a log in C:\program files (or the equivalent). If every user who uses this app is required to have permissions to that folder then every user will be able to see that log. So you or I could look in the logs and see the username and password of the other.

See the difference?

I mean, this is much less problematic (at least an order of magnitude so) than sending passwords in plain text, but it's still Not Good for certain use cases.

If you are physically sharing a computer with someone whom you don't trust with your passwords, then either (1) you're playing at work, stop slacking off, slacker, or (2) you have incredibly serious trust issues with your spouse, get counseling, or (3) tell your roommate to get their own damn computer, or (4) get your kid their own computer, they're old enough and smart enough to figure out how to get to your porn stash and not just your passwords.

Maybe I'm unimaginative but I can't think of other use cases.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Watno on June 19, 2015, 09:56:23 am
Why does anyone let browsers save their passwords? Aren't cookies a much better way to preserve logins?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: DStu on June 19, 2015, 10:15:54 am
Maybe it's really not that bad in this case (I don't know), but I'm a bit annoyed and bored by people who are not in the security business defending unnecessary deviations from security standards because they can't imagine how that can be exploited.

Krypto/Security is hard and fails in sophisticated ways, and I tend not to be reassured by random (sorry Kirian) people on the internet that can't instantly construct a generic attack out of this.



That said, as in the browser case, the app must in some sense have the "plaintext" password on the hdd in any case, at least I (in my function as random people on the internet) don't see how it can authenticate.  It can store the password encrypted, but then it must save the key.  Somehow it must know what to send to the server to authenticate yourself.  Interested in seeing how you can get around this.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: pubby on June 19, 2015, 10:30:24 am
Why does anyone let browsers save their passwords? Aren't cookies a much better way to preserve logins?
Cookies are still stored by the browser as plaintext. The difference is that usually they hold a session id or some other value that isn't username+password. Anyone who has this value can login as you, so they're not much more secure.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on June 19, 2015, 11:25:42 am
for what it's worth I don't believe that Chrome is saving passwords in plain text.

Go into "Settings". Click "Show advanced settings...". Click "Manage passwords". Mouse over the dots of one of your passwords and click "Show".

Chrome needs the plain text version of your password so it can submit it to a website. It can't separately negotiate with each website a way to store a hash that it will accept.
Oh sure. It can decrypt them and show them to you, but they don't exist on your hard drive unencrypted. That may or may not be a trivial difference depending on the OS level file permissions.

Let's say you and I share a computer. I log on to my user account and use Chrome and allow it to store passwords. It encrypts them and stores them in my user space with appropriate permissions. You can't get to the file where my passwords are stored, and even if you could you can't decrypt them without my user credentials.

Now consider Doninion writing usernames and passwords to a log in C:\program files (or the equivalent). If every user who uses this app is required to have permissions to that folder then every user will be able to see that log. So you or I could look in the logs and see the username and password of the other.

See the difference?

I mean, this is much less problematic (at least an order of magnitude so) than sending passwords in plain text, but it's still Not Good for certain use cases.

If you are physically sharing a computer with someone whom you don't trust with your passwords, then either (1) you're playing at work, stop slacking off, slacker, or (2) you have incredibly serious trust issues with your spouse, get counseling, or (3) tell your roommate to get their own damn computer, or (4) get your kid their own computer, they're old enough and smart enough to figure out how to get to your porn stash and not just your passwords.

Maybe I'm unimaginative but I can't think of other use cases.

There's the rather common case of a notebook/laptop/surface that goes between work and home, corporate and personal use. The laptop may or may not be a corporate asset; it might be owned by the individual but brought to work and allowed to join the corporate network in some way. If it's a corporate asset it may be okay to have Dominion installed on it depending on policies.

In such a case there's a big difference between a text file on disk that can be grepped by anyone with adequate permissions and an encrypted password store.

I mean, as I said earlier, this is a much, much less serious problem than transmitting passwords in the clear and/or storing them server side in plaintext, and no one should be using credentials for Dominion that they use anywhere important, but it's not ideal.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Davio on June 19, 2015, 01:32:23 pm
Is this a place to rant about the beta?

I've only tried the Windows version and have several issues with it:
- It's sluggish, even on my pretty good laptop
- No lobby? They somehow made finding an opponent worse
- Weird deck count bug (with Library), doesn't show the right amount of cards left in your deck

More to follow. :)
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 19, 2015, 01:37:53 pm
The title of this thread still stands. We're still waiting for the Beta.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Chris is me on June 19, 2015, 03:06:59 pm
Honestly, the last update has worked pretty well for me. Playing at ultra hi res (2880) looks just stunning, animations are much better, and random input lag seems to be gone. Haven't had an issue with card text either. I'm beginning to find confidence that they'll squish all the bugs within a month and start working on features we need like the sidebar. Game works fine on my 1280 monitor too. I did get a cards left in deck bug once, but it was apparent from the very beginning of the game so it's not a game breaker for me (yet). Gotta fix that for next update though.

I just wish it weren't marketed as an "almost ready" version when it clearly wasn't, and the price hike should have happened when the game was feature complete and not before.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Young Nick on June 21, 2015, 12:38:58 pm
I'm sure they probably have seen this, but in the first game I played with the app, 4-5 cards were not readable. IE I saw the title and picture, but when I clicked on the card, the text displayed to the left of the card and on top of itself rendering it illegible.

This is such a rudimentary bug that I trust they'll fix it soon, but surprised to see it in a Beta edition.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: yed on June 21, 2015, 12:41:40 pm
I'm sure they probably have seen this, but in the first game I played with the app, 4-5 cards were not readable. IE I saw the title and picture, but when I clicked on the card, the text displayed to the left of the card and on top of itself rendering it illegible.

This is such a rudimentary bug that I trust they'll fix it soon, but surprised to see it in a Beta edition.

Try changing resolution. In some specific resolution I have never seen this error.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on June 21, 2015, 02:37:03 pm
More specifically, that bug seems to happen when the ratio of your chosen resolution doesn't match the ratio of your monitor.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: GendoIkari on June 21, 2015, 06:38:59 pm
More specifically, that bug seems to happen when the ratio of your chosen resolution doesn't match the ratio of your monitor.

Seems to me that requiring the user to select their resolution when the app starts is insanity.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on June 21, 2015, 10:17:05 pm
More specifically, that bug seems to happen when the ratio of your chosen resolution doesn't match the ratio of your monitor.

Seems to me that requiring the user to select their resolution when the app starts is insanity.

It's a default part of the Unity launcher. The real question is, will the default Unity launcher continue to exist as part of the software?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 22, 2015, 01:18:23 am
(http://i.imgur.com/3Rv97wU.png)

All I can say is I'm glad I don't work at MF. :/
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on June 22, 2015, 01:34:16 am
Have the sparkly graphics been complained about adequately here or on the MF forums?

Because man, they're awful. The visual cue that something has changed shouldn't obscure what has actually changed.

I hate to keep comparing this to Isotropic, but a few lines of a text log >>> sparkly graphics for conveying information quickly and accurately.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: jsh357 on June 22, 2015, 10:22:40 am
Have the sparkly graphics been complained about adequately here or on the MF forums?

Because man, they're awful. The visual cue that something has changed shouldn't obscure what has actually changed.

I hate to keep comparing this to Isotropic, but a few lines of a text log >>> sparkly graphics for conveying information quickly and accurately.

They have been complained about since the start of the closed beta. (and they have improved since then, but are still annoying)  I am pretty sure they know it needs to be changed.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: jsh357 on June 22, 2015, 10:24:35 am
(http://i.imgur.com/3Rv97wU.png)

All I can say is I'm glad I don't work at MF. :/

Well, it sucks to hear things like that, but the guy isn't saying anything untruthful (other than the suggestion that they close down, which is a bit harsh).  Dominion Online has its advantages over isotropic, but isotropic did indeed work correctly except in rare instances when it went down.  Asking for more money now probably seems ridiculous to some.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on June 22, 2015, 04:22:27 pm
Have the sparkly graphics been complained about adequately here or on the MF forums?

Because man, they're awful. The visual cue that something has changed shouldn't obscure what has actually changed.

I hate to keep comparing this to Isotropic, but a few lines of a text log >>> sparkly graphics for conveying information quickly and accurately.

They have been complained about since the start of the closed beta. (and they have improved since then, but are still annoying)  I am pretty sure they know it needs to be changed.

Ok, thanks. I tried poking around on the Making Fun forums but there were way too many threads and sub-forums to parse.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Darth Vader on June 23, 2015, 12:24:34 am
Oh, I see you all found the plans to my new weapon of mass destruction: Making Fun's Beta.

...What did you expect, another Death Star? That's stupid, why would I build another one?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 23, 2015, 08:39:01 am
Oh, I see you all found the plans to my new weapon of mass destruction: Making Fun's Beta.

...What did you expect, another Death Star? That's stupid, why would I build another one?

Dude, even the second one was a bad idea.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Darth Vader on June 23, 2015, 09:15:34 am
Oh, I see you all found the plans to my new weapon of mass destruction: Making Fun's Beta.

...What did you expect, another Death Star? That's stupid, why would I build another one?

Dude, even the second one was a bad idea.

Using plans from a bunch of bugs on a dusty planet 40 years prior was also a bad idea. But it was more a bad writing idea, just like the second Death Star. Wait a second... it is almost like all of these movies are unified by one single bad writer, whether or not he was saved from incompetence from others or not. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader who this person is.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: pacovf on June 23, 2015, 09:19:12 am
Mmmm... Is it       Moat         ?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 23, 2015, 09:27:29 am
Oh, I see you all found the plans to my new weapon of mass destruction: Making Fun's Beta.

...What did you expect, another Death Star? That's stupid, why would I build another one?

Dude, even the second one was a bad idea.

Using plans from a bunch of bugs on a dusty planet 40 years prior was also a bad idea. But it was more a bad writing idea, just like the second Death Star. Wait a second... it is almost like all of these movies are unified by one single bad writer, whether or not he was saved from incompetence from others or not. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader who this person is.

The plan was sound - the Death Star functioned as promised.  It was Tarkin's arrogance and overconfidence that did you in.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 23, 2015, 10:14:27 am
Mmmm... Is it       Moat         ?

Nope, it's Joseph Campbell.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Darth Vader on June 23, 2015, 10:16:38 am
The plan was sound - the Death Star functioned as promised.  It was Tarkin's arrogance and overconfidence that did you in.

I guess you could say escape was not his plan.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 23, 2015, 10:19:48 am
The plan was sound - the Death Star functioned as promised.  It was Tarkin's arrogance and overconfidence that did you in.

I guess you could say escape was not his plan.

"Evacuate?  In our moment of triumph?  I think you overestimate their chances!"
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: rspeer on June 23, 2015, 10:47:22 am
This new game mode on MF where you only see the backs of the cards must be how you train to use the Force.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Darth Vader on June 23, 2015, 01:09:58 pm
This new game mode on MF where you only see the backs of the cards must be how you train to use the Force.

Yeah, and since I killed pretty much all the Jedi, I'll win every game!
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Schneau on June 23, 2015, 02:12:31 pm
This new game mode on MF where you only see the backs of the cards must be how you train to use the Forge.

FTFY
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: DavidTheDavid on June 23, 2015, 07:55:28 pm
Re: the password discussion:
I've seen contrary opinions on the password thing as I've followed this thread off and on. There's an outstanding ticket on this issue. The passwords are not being sent between server and client in plain text, and if someone's machine is compromised, it would seem that you're hosed regardless.

Granted, that's not my field, and my code skills don't go further than rudimentary html and css. Can someone summarize why the above is wrong, or how concerns persist despite the above so that I can add that to the ticket on this issue?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on June 23, 2015, 10:57:06 pm
Re: the password discussion:
I've seen contrary opinions on the password thing as I've followed this thread off and on. There's an outstanding ticket on this issue. The passwords are not being sent between server and client in plain text, and if someone's machine is compromised, it would seem that you're hosed regardless.

Granted, that's not my field, and my code skills don't go further than rudimentary html and css. Can someone summarize why the above is wrong, or how concerns persist despite the above so that I can add that to the ticket on this issue?

I think there are two related issues here:

1) The Windows application requires write permissions on C:\Program Files and writes the logs (which contain the password info) there. Logs should be written to the AppData folder for the user running the application.

2) I'm not sure I see a good reason to write the username and password to the logs at this point. What is the situation where that is needed?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: DavidTheDavid on June 24, 2015, 11:27:32 pm
Re: the password discussion:
I've seen contrary opinions on the password thing as I've followed this thread off and on. There's an outstanding ticket on this issue. The passwords are not being sent between server and client in plain text, and if someone's machine is compromised, it would seem that you're hosed regardless.

Granted, that's not my field, and my code skills don't go further than rudimentary html and css. Can someone summarize why the above is wrong, or how concerns persist despite the above so that I can add that to the ticket on this issue?

I think there are two related issues here:

1) The Windows application requires write permissions on C:\Program Files and writes the logs (which contain the password info) there. Logs should be written to the AppData folder for the user running the application.

2) I'm not sure I see a good reason to write the username and password to the logs at this point. What is the situation where that is needed?

Does item 1 pose an elevated risk somehow?

Anything else from anyone?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: LastFootnote on June 24, 2015, 11:37:10 pm
I agree with Cave-o-sapien.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on June 25, 2015, 12:00:48 am

I think there are two related issues here:

1) The Windows application requires write permissions on C:\Program Files and writes the logs (which contain the password info) there. Logs should be written to the AppData folder for the user running the application.

2) I'm not sure I see a good reason to write the username and password to the logs at this point. What is the situation where that is needed?


Does item 1 pose an elevated risk somehow?

Anything else from anyone?
I'm not an expert, but the AppData folder is kind of a best practices thing, right? Like, it'd bother most people if the logs were saved to your desktop, right? Saving them to the Program Files folder isn't much better.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: DavidTheDavid on June 25, 2015, 12:22:29 am

I think there are two related issues here:

1) The Windows application requires write permissions on C:\Program Files and writes the logs (which contain the password info) there. Logs should be written to the AppData folder for the user running the application.

2) I'm not sure I see a good reason to write the username and password to the logs at this point. What is the situation where that is needed?

I went through the least few pages and included on the ticket different password posts that seemed representative.


Does item 1 pose an elevated risk somehow?

Anything else from anyone?
I'm not an expert, but the AppData folder is kind of a best practices thing, right? Like, it'd bother most people if the logs were saved to your desktop, right? Saving them to the Program Files folder isn't much better.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 25, 2015, 12:48:40 am
My computer still runs like it's fueled via a coal furnace whenever I play this game, and it never goes off like this in any other sort of activity I do on my computer.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: SCSN on June 25, 2015, 02:18:12 am
Re: the password discussion:
I've seen contrary opinions on the password thing as I've followed this thread off and on. There's an outstanding ticket on this issue. The passwords are not being sent between server and client in plain text, and if someone's machine is compromised, it would seem that you're hosed regardless.

Granted, that's not my field, and my code skills don't go further than rudimentary html and css. Can someone summarize why the above is wrong, or how concerns persist despite the above so that I can add that to the ticket on this issue?

I think there are two related issues here:

1) The Windows application requires write permissions on C:\Program Files and writes the logs (which contain the password info) there. Logs should be written to the AppData folder for the user running the application.

2) I'm not sure I see a good reason to write the username and password to the logs at this point. What is the situation where that is needed?

Does item 1 pose an elevated risk somehow?

Anything else from anyone?

Yes it does for different people using the same computer, e.g. underage siblings living in the same household (depending on the age, these are the absolute last ones you want to know your passwords).

And I assume that if the game crashes in some unexpected, not easily reproducible fashion, you guys are interested in taking a look at the log, and you shouldn't have access to those passwords either.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: AdamH on June 25, 2015, 08:11:34 am
The passwords are not being sent between server and client in plain text, and if someone's machine is compromised, it would seem that you're hosed regardless.

There seems to be an assumption made here that if someone can read a file on your computer, that your "machine is compromised" and you're totally screwed and it's not MF's problem. I don't understand where this assumption comes from, especially because it's not true. People put dots over passwords as they're being typed in because someone can be looking over your shoulder as you type, why can't you obfuscate passwords that are stored on the file system? Even if someone's "machine is compromised" why would you make it easier to find passwords when you could just XOR it with something, or hash it? Really, you should always, always, always, 100% of the time, without ANY exceptions, hash passwords before you store them. There is no reason whatsoever to not do this.

And that's the really concerning part for me. You expect me to download and run an executable on my computer. If we have to tell your developers to hash passwords before they're stored, then how much do they know about security? Or development in general? Systems have to be designed with security in mind or else they're going to be vulnerable -- how can I know that the same guy who stores passwords in plain text in the Program Files folder can write an application that won't give the bad guys Local Privilege Escalation on my computer? Let alone implement a communications protocol that can play Dominion without the integrity of the game being compromised.

Let me be clear, I'm not touching this application again until I can be reasonably sure that it's secure (and there are very few people that want your app to succeed more than me, seriously). Storing passwords in plain text is not secure. You can wave your hands at it as much as you want and say it's not a big deal, but now you just look silly waving your hands and saying wrong things. It's not hard to change this, why isn't it being changed? Ugh.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: philosophyguy on June 25, 2015, 08:57:58 am
Storing passwords in plain text is not secure. You can wave your hands at it as much as you want and say it's not a big deal, but now you just look silly waving your hands and saying wrong things. It's not hard to change this, why isn't it being changed? Ugh.

I want to emphasize Adam's point here. Security is really tough, and there are a lot of subtle ways that applications can have security holes. Never storing plain-text passwords is arguably the most uncontroversial, fundamental, and non-negotiable security best practice. If Making Fun's attitude towards passwords is "meh, not a real issue," then I have very little trust that you are taking security seriously on other issues that I am not smart enough, or deep enough in the code base, to find. Frankly, this attitude is the kind of cowboy coding I expect out of high school kids. It's beyond unacceptable for professionals. If computer programming were a licensed activity, this is the kind of thing that would get your license pulled by the accrediting organization. It really is that bad, and if you don't understand why, then you need to hire a security consultant yesterday in order to make sure your code is safe.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: theory on June 25, 2015, 09:14:52 am
Wait, is the criticism that they are storing plaintext passwords on your computer, or plaintext passwords on your server?  The latter is completely unacceptable.  The former, which by my cursory reading appears to be the case, was considered acceptable even by Google as of fairly recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6166731  There's a not-unreasonable argument to be made that encrypting locally stored passwords is mostly security theater.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 25, 2015, 09:23:22 am
If the plaintext on your computer is compromised by a virus or trojan, couldn't that have been prevented by simply encrypting your password? I don't know the first thing about security, so I don't know much.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on June 25, 2015, 09:32:40 am
Wait, is the criticism that they are storing plaintext passwords on your computer, or plaintext passwords on your server?  The latter is completely unacceptable.  The former, which by my cursory reading appears to be the case, was considered acceptable even by Google as of fairly recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6166731  There's a not-unreasonable argument to be made that encrypting locally stored passwords is mostly security theater.

The former is the issue at hand.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: AdamH on June 25, 2015, 09:55:20 am
Wait, is the criticism that they are storing plaintext passwords on your computer, or plaintext passwords on your server?  The latter is completely unacceptable.  The former, which by my cursory reading appears to be the case, was considered acceptable even by Google as of fairly recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6166731  There's a not-unreasonable argument to be made that encrypting locally stored passwords is mostly security theater.

One guy from Google says they don't want to do it, and then a bunch of people disagree with him for reasons that seem perfectly reasonable to me. This isn't an official announcement or anything.

I talk to many people every day who work in the computer security field. I've never heard any of them say it's OK to store passwords in plain text.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: TrojH on June 25, 2015, 10:26:24 am
Let me be clear, I'm not touching this application again until I can be reasonably sure that it's secure (and there are very few people that want your app to succeed more than me, seriously). Storing passwords in plain text is not secure. You can wave your hands at it as much as you want and say it's not a big deal, but now you just look silly waving your hands and saying wrong things. It's not hard to change this, why isn't it being changed? Ugh.

This is sounding very familiar.

I remember when Goko's implementation first came out, there were some security issues, and Wandering Winder said he wouldn't play on Goko until those issues were fixed. Someone then compared Wandering Winder to Cookie Monster; if Cookie Monster refused to eat a cookie, it could only be because that cookie isn't safe to eat.

AdamH, it looks like you're our new Dominion Monster.  :D
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: markusin on June 25, 2015, 10:30:15 am
Wait, is the criticism that they are storing plaintext passwords on your computer, or plaintext passwords on your server?  The latter is completely unacceptable.  The former, which by my cursory reading appears to be the case, was considered acceptable even by Google as of fairly recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6166731  There's a not-unreasonable argument to be made that encrypting locally stored passwords is mostly security theater.

One guy from Google says they don't want to do it, and then a bunch of people disagree with him for reasons that seem perfectly reasonable to me. This isn't an official announcement or anything.

I talk to many people every day who work in the computer security field. I've never heard any of them say it's OK to store passwords in plain text.
Except what MF has done is not the same as what Google does for Chrome. The Google Chrome passwords are still encrypted on your machine. It just that they use your computer account password as the encryption key. Chrome doesn't ask you to input your user account password when you want to see your passwords in plain text, but you have to be logged in to the user account that saved the password for that to work. Your account password can be accessed by other utilities though, so malware running on that account can access those passwords too.
Reference: http://www.howtogeek.com/70146/how-secure-are-your-saved-chrome-browser-passwords/ (http://www.howtogeek.com/70146/how-secure-are-your-saved-chrome-browser-passwords/)

What MF has done is worse than that though. They literally save passwords in plain text (clarification: plain text in the log file) to the program files folder. Last I checked, that's a shared folder across all users of the machine it's saved on. That means anyone on the guest account of that computer can look at the file and see your password. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 25, 2015, 10:46:49 am
(http://stocksstandard.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Picard-Facepalm.jpg)
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on June 25, 2015, 10:47:35 am
Wait, is the criticism that they are storing plaintext passwords on your computer, or plaintext passwords on your server?  The latter is completely unacceptable.  The former, which by my cursory reading appears to be the case, was considered acceptable even by Google as of fairly recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6166731  There's a not-unreasonable argument to be made that encrypting locally stored passwords is mostly security theater.

One guy from Google says they don't want to do it, and then a bunch of people disagree with him for reasons that seem perfectly reasonable to me. This isn't an official announcement or anything.

I talk to many people every day who work in the computer security field. I've never heard any of them say it's OK to store passwords in plain text.
Except what MF has done is not the same as what Google does for Chrome. The Google Chrome passwords are still encrypted on your machine. It just that they use your computer account password as the encryption key. Chrome doesn't ask you to input your user account password when you want to see your passwords in plain text, but you have to be logged in to the user account that saved the password for that to work. Your account password can be accessed by other utilities though, so malware running on that account can access those passwords too.
Reference: http://www.howtogeek.com/70146/how-secure-are-your-saved-chrome-browser-passwords/ (http://www.howtogeek.com/70146/how-secure-are-your-saved-chrome-browser-passwords/)

What MF has done is worse than that though. They literally save passwords in plain text to the program files folder. Last I checked, that's a shared folder across all users of the machine it's saved on. That means anyone on the guest account of that computer can look at the file and see your password. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Let's be clear and precise about what they're doing:

1) I don't have any evidence that they're storing credentials for logon purposes in plain text anywhere on my machine.

2) What they ARE doing is writing username/password in plain text to a debug log in a shared location.

Both of the problems in (2) are easily addressed and don't seem like nearly the security design flaws some people are making them out to be. One is a lack of understanding of Windows file location best practices; the other is likely an artifact of a much earlier development step.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: pubby on June 25, 2015, 10:53:58 am
Re: the password discussion:
I've seen contrary opinions on the password thing as I've followed this thread off and on. There's an outstanding ticket on this issue. The passwords are not being sent between server and client in plain text, and if someone's machine is compromised, it would seem that you're hosed regardless.

Granted, that's not my field, and my code skills don't go further than rudimentary html and css. Can someone summarize why the above is wrong, or how concerns persist despite the above so that I can add that to the ticket on this issue?
What we know: The client is logging communication with the server, including login password.
What we don't know: Is the server logging this too?

The client logging is mostly a non-issue, but if the server is logging passwords then that's 100% bad and wrong. Please make this part clear in the ticket.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Haddock on June 25, 2015, 10:56:11 am
One is a lack of understanding of Windows file location best practices; the other is likely an artifact of a much earlier development step.
Well sure, but both still need fixing.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: theory on June 25, 2015, 11:35:21 am
I agree that it can be done better.  Chrome has changed its practices too.  But the point remains that locally logging plaintext passwords, while dubious and probably unnecessary, is not a security catastrophe.  Mainly because it's a security risk if and only if someone has root access to your machine already, in which case you really are completely boned. 

It's like worrying whether an envelope of cash in your safe is sealed or not.  Probably you shouldn't be keeping an envelope of cash in your safe, and it's true that sealing it offers some modicum of protection if your safe door is open for some reason (so that a passerby doesn't see money spilling out of the envelope), but if someone hacked into your safe, whether or not your envelope is sealed doesn't make much of a difference.

As to the whole saving to the wrong folder because of the Program Files shared-ness, I don't know much about that, but that does sound shitty and also an easy fix.  Just put the envelope in a different safe.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: AdamH on June 25, 2015, 11:48:54 am
I agree that it can be done better.  Chrome has changed its practices too.  But the point remains that locally logging plaintext passwords, while dubious and probably unnecessary, is not a security catastrophe.  Mainly because it's a security risk if and only if someone has root access to your machine already, in which case you really are completely boned. 

It's like worrying whether an envelope of cash in your safe is sealed or not.  Probably you shouldn't be keeping an envelope of cash in your safe, and it's true that sealing it offers some modicum of protection if your safe door is open for some reason (so that a passerby doesn't see money spilling out of the envelope), but if someone hacked into your safe, whether or not your envelope is sealed doesn't make much of a difference.

I disagree, I think it is a security catastrophe. Even if it's less than a catastrophe, it still doesn't inspire confidence. I'd be fired from my job if I stored a password in plain text.

And I don't think this analogy is appropriate. If you obfuscate the password, then it doesn't look like a password anymore, maybe if the envelope made your cash look like something that isn't valuable? It's tough to make these analogies, which is why I try not to do it. In computer security, theft deterrent is a thing (like having the crappiest bike on campus so nobody wants to steal it -- if someone wants to steal your bike they'll steal your bike by just cutting through the lock, so you just make your bike something that nobody wants to steal). People can get plain-text passwords pretty easily by lots of means. I don't want my passwords to be any easier to get than they have to be.

I mean, I just thought it was accepted practice among anyone who knows what they're doing to never store passwords in plain text. It's so easy to do and it helps so much.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: markusin on June 25, 2015, 11:53:10 am
As to the whole saving to the wrong folder because of the Program Files shared-ness, I don't know much about that, but that does sound shitty and also an easy fix.  Just put the envelope in a different safe.
Well yeah it's an easy fix, but it has to be done. If I understand things correctly, then a person doesn't necessarily need root access to your computer. Any access will do so long as they know where to to look in the program files folder. A guest account should work for that. Moving the log to a user specific folder so that only admin accounts can get to it is what needs to be done. I think the appData folder fits that requirement.

Still like, saving any password in plaintext at any point seems careless.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: philosophyguy on June 25, 2015, 01:23:43 pm
I agree that it can be done better.  Chrome has changed its practices too.  But the point remains that locally logging plaintext passwords, while dubious and probably unnecessary, is not a security catastrophe.

At some point I'll stop beating on this horse, but I really think this is a fundamental issue. Security is hard. Lots of seemingly innocent decisions can create an attack surface that is surprisingly large. When it comes to passwords, the best practice is to always encrypt them. Now, if there's a compelling reason to deviate from the best practice, I'm willing to listen, but that's not what I'm seeing. What I'm seeing is a company that doesn't recognize that they aren't following the best practice and seems pretty lackadaisical about it.

If you're going to deviate from a best practice, that's the worst attitude you could have. I want an organization that is hyper aware of the fact that they are deviating, and what the consequences of that are, and that inspires confidence that they have done a competent risk-benefit analysis. Nothing about this situation meets those criteria.

In isolation, this issue might not be as severe as I'm treating it, although I think it is. What is undoubtedly severe, however, is that Making Fun is not demonstrating a professional level of concern for security. There's a lot of things that we need to take on trust when it comes to online service providers protecting our credentials, credit card info, etc. Making Fun is starting from a trust deficit, and their actions--both in terms of their coding and in terms of their response when this issue was raised--are not making that deficit any smaller.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 25, 2015, 01:25:10 pm
I agree that it can be done better.  Chrome has changed its practices too.  But the point remains that locally logging plaintext passwords, while dubious and probably unnecessary, is not a security catastrophe.

At some point I'll stop beating on this horse, but I really think this is a fundamental issue. Security is hard. Lots of seemingly innocent decisions can create an attack surface that is surprisingly large. When it comes to passwords, the best practice is to always encrypt them. Now, if there's a compelling reason to deviate from the best practice, I'm willing to listen, but that's not what I'm seeing. What I'm seeing is a company that doesn't recognize that they aren't following the best practice and seems pretty lackadaisical about it.

If you're going to deviate from a best practice, that's the worst attitude you could have. I want an organization that is hyper aware of the fact that they are deviating, and what the consequences of that are, and that inspires confidence that they have done a competent risk-benefit analysis. Nothing about this situation meets those criteria.

In isolation, this issue might not be as severe as I'm treating it, although I think it is. What is undoubtedly severe, however, is that Making Fun is not demonstrating a professional level of concern for security. There's a lot of things that we need to take on trust when it comes to online service providers protecting our credentials, credit card info, etc. Making Fun is starting from a trust deficit, and their actions--both in terms of their coding and in terms of their response when this issue was raised--are not making that deficit any smaller.

You really know your philosophy security, guy!
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: pubby on June 25, 2015, 01:47:42 pm
Quote
Moving the log to a user specific folder so that only admin accounts can get to it is what needs to be done.
The sane (and only) fix is to stop including the password in the log. That's it. This whole discussion on "always encrypt passwords" and security-by-obscurity is completely irrelevant to the problem people are  angry about.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: markusin on June 25, 2015, 01:54:26 pm
As cave-o-sapien mentioned, this is likely a development artifact that was missed when the Beta was made public. It shouldn't be considered a big deal so long as it's promptly fixed and assurances that the client-server communication and server-side data conforms to safety standards. We have no evidence to say the client-server communication and the server data aren't conforming to security standards.

What can be considered "promptly" is up for contention. I think some people here were expecting "promptly" to mean the release after it was discovered. I'm okay if they deal with it in the next release or so.
Quote
Moving the log to a user specific folder so that only admin accounts can get to it is what needs to be done.
The sane (and only) fix is to stop including the password in the log. That's it. This whole discussion on "always encrypt passwords" and security-by-obscurity is completely irrelevant to the problem people are  angry about.
I thought we were assuming that MF wanted to see user-password info in the log for some reason.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: blueblimp on June 25, 2015, 05:32:43 pm
Wait, is the criticism that they are storing plaintext passwords on your computer, or plaintext passwords on your server?  The latter is completely unacceptable.  The former, which by my cursory reading appears to be the case, was considered acceptable even by Google as of fairly recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6166731  There's a not-unreasonable argument to be made that encrypting locally stored passwords is mostly security theater.
Interesting discussion. It seems like there are a couple of differences between the situation here vs Chrome's old behavior. (These days, at least on Mac OS X, it seems that Chrome requires the account password to display any stored password.)

One is that the password is being written to a log in a folder viewable by all users, or at least all users that can run the Dominion Online program. (I'm not familiar with what permissions Windows uses for Program Files.) For an example of why this is a problem, consider if two different users both used Dominion Online. Then they would be able to look at each other's passwords by opening this log.

Second, even if the password were written to user-specific storage, that storage isn't necessarily encrypted, so someone with access to the storage device (the hard drive or SSD) would be able to read the password off of it without needing the account password. It's true that sometimes all data on disk is encrypted, like with FileVault on a Mac, but this isn't always the case.

So, it's better to keep the password in storage that is both user-specific and guaranteed to be encrypted. On a Mac, this is Keychain. I don't know what the Windows equivalent is. Although in this case, since the file in question is a log, the better solution is to simply not log the password at all.

What Chrome used to be doing is that it would keep the passwords in Keychain, but it would also allow viewing those passwords without asking for the account password. You would still need to be logged into your account to view the passwords, so they would still be secure against access from other users and whoever can read your storage device directly, unlike the Dominion Online log.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: yed on June 25, 2015, 05:35:09 pm
I think it is ok to store plaintext password in your home directory, but only when you select the "remember password" option.
Encrypting the password with some key you have in code is just for show and not worth the effort. Better way is to use some system private storage, but not all systems have that so it is not worth the complications in multi-platform application, Dominion account is not that important.

But it is not ok to save the log with password, especially when you are not using "remember password" option.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: yed on June 25, 2015, 05:38:10 pm
Quote
Moving the log to a user specific folder so that only admin accounts can get to it is what needs to be done.
The sane (and only) fix is to stop including the password in the log. That's it. This whole discussion on "always encrypt passwords" and security-by-obscurity is completely irrelevant to the problem people are  angry about.
Could you please start using clickable quotes?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: DavidTheDavid on June 26, 2015, 08:11:35 am
Re: the password discussion:
I've seen contrary opinions on the password thing as I've followed this thread off and on. There's an outstanding ticket on this issue. The passwords are not being sent between server and client in plain text, and if someone's machine is compromised, it would seem that you're hosed regardless.

Granted, that's not my field, and my code skills don't go further than rudimentary html and css. Can someone summarize why the above is wrong, or how concerns persist despite the above so that I can add that to the ticket on this issue?

Did I misrepresent myself? While I am a representative for the game's publisher, I work in player support and do some QA as needed. I can float a div container to the right, but that's about it. Please don't misinterpret or mischaracterize my statements as some sort of policy on security practices. In fact, as noted in my opening sentence, I was referencing contrary opinions stated in this thread. Now if you want to take the code itself and make assumptions from there, that can be understood.

While I can't speak to security, I can act as a liaison and share your thoughts with the developers. That was my intent: a bit of outreach as I knew it was a concern to some people here. Not sure about the consequent finger wagging and excoriations. Maybe I'm the most visible target, not sure, but I was hoping to take something constructive back.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: philosophyguy on June 26, 2015, 09:54:10 am
While I can't speak to security, I can act as a liaison and share your thoughts with the developers. That was my intent: a bit of outreach as I knew it was a concern to some people here. Not sure about the consequent finger wagging and excoriations. Maybe I'm the most visible target, not sure, but I was hoping to take something constructive back.

If you want to take something back, here are a few questions for the developers. I think it's important for Making Fun to have satisfactory answers to these; what you share from those answers is up to you, but since you have a serious trust gap at the moment I would encourage you to be more forthright rather than less.

1. Why are plaintext passwords being written to a log file?

If the passwords were written as a debugging measure that was not supposed to remain in a public release,
2. Why was the decision made to use a method that contravenes best practices, even initially?
3. What failed in our process that this decision was NOT corrected before the public release?
4. Are there any other issues where we made a temporary decision that contravened best practices, and if so have we fixed those issues?
5. How do we know that our answer to #4 is correct? What process verifies that we didn't miss anything?

If it was not a temporary and then overlooked decision,
6. Who made that decision?
7. Is that person aware of security best practices regarding hashing passwords, etc.?
8. Why did that person decide to not follow the best practice in this case?
9. Did that person perform a risk-benefit assessment for the deviation from best practices? What were the conclusions? Was anyone else with security expertise consulted (internally or externally) to check those conclusions?
10. Are there any other issues in which best practices were not known, ignored, or intentionally deviated from? What are they? How confident are you that there are no unknown deviations?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: RobertJ on June 26, 2015, 11:30:18 am
Re: the password discussion:
I've seen contrary opinions on the password thing as I've followed this thread off and on. There's an outstanding ticket on this issue. The passwords are not being sent between server and client in plain text, and if someone's machine is compromised, it would seem that you're hosed regardless.

Granted, that's not my field, and my code skills don't go further than rudimentary html and css. Can someone summarize why the above is wrong, or how concerns persist despite the above so that I can add that to the ticket on this issue?

Possibly this is because I have no technical expertise in this but the thing that troubles me most is that you seem to be asking for advice on security issues from a bunch of random people on an internet forum* (bolded quote above particularly). I can see that seeking feedback from the community is important for many aspects (how automatch works, the sparkliness of the animations, etc.) but security is surely something that should be approached in a more professional way.

I can't judge how serious any of this is but the impression I'm getting is that the developers are acting rather casually which doesn't inspire confidence.

* I don't mean to offend any posters here, I'm sure there are some very knowledgable people contributing but it still feels wrong that this discussion is happening here.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: qmech on June 26, 2015, 01:01:29 pm
Re: the password discussion:
I've seen contrary opinions on the password thing as I've followed this thread off and on. There's an outstanding ticket on this issue. The passwords are not being sent between server and client in plain text, and if someone's machine is compromised, it would seem that you're hosed regardless.

Granted, that's not my field, and my code skills don't go further than rudimentary html and css. Can someone summarize why the above is wrong, or how concerns persist despite the above so that I can add that to the ticket on this issue?

Possibly this is because I have no technical expertise in this but the thing that troubles me most is that you seem to be asking for advice on security issues from a bunch of random people on an internet forum* (bolded quote above particularly). I can see that seeking feedback from the community is important for many aspects (how automatch works, the sparkliness of the animations, etc.) but security is surely something that should be approached in a more professional way.

This doesn't seem to be an entirely fair reading of the situation.  David is not a developer, he's someone involved precisely to act as a bridge between us and the developers.  In the best case, he can be an advocate for what we want to see.  I'm sure that he's not been specifically asked to seek our opinions on security, but it's important to a lot of people and it's entirely sensible for him to try and find out what our concerns are so that he can present them as clearly as possible to those in charge.

It's awkward for David that he's in this situation, but it doesn't seem to be his fault.  The developers are messing him around just as much as they are us.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: RobertJ on June 26, 2015, 03:11:50 pm
Re: the password discussion:
I've seen contrary opinions on the password thing as I've followed this thread off and on. There's an outstanding ticket on this issue. The passwords are not being sent between server and client in plain text, and if someone's machine is compromised, it would seem that you're hosed regardless.

Granted, that's not my field, and my code skills don't go further than rudimentary html and css. Can someone summarize why the above is wrong, or how concerns persist despite the above so that I can add that to the ticket on this issue?

Possibly this is because I have no technical expertise in this but the thing that troubles me most is that you seem to be asking for advice on security issues from a bunch of random people on an internet forum* (bolded quote above particularly). I can see that seeking feedback from the community is important for many aspects (how automatch works, the sparkliness of the animations, etc.) but security is surely something that should be approached in a more professional way.

This doesn't seem to be an entirely fair reading of the situation.  David is not a developer, he's someone involved precisely to act as a bridge between us and the developers.  In the best case, he can be an advocate for what we want to see.  I'm sure that he's not been specifically asked to seek our opinions on security, but it's important to a lot of people and it's entirely sensible for him to try and find out what our concerns are so that he can present them as clearly as possible to those in charge.

It's awkward for David that he's in this situation, but it doesn't seem to be his fault.  The developers are messing him around just as much as they are us.

Quite possibly I am misreading things but for clarity here is a fuller description of why I'm uncomfortable.

As I understood David's post there was a ticket saying something along the lines of "There are concerns over the unencrypted storage of passwords." To my mind this should be a perfectly legitimate and useful message for the developers to be getting.

What concerned me was the invitation:

Quote
Can someone summarize why the above is wrong, or how concerns persist despite the above so that I can add that to the ticket on this issue?

I took this as an attempt to move to a ticket saying:

"There are concerns over the unencrypted storage of passwords and here are some suggestions for how to deal with them......"

or

"There are concerns over the unencrypted storage of passwords but most people are happy that this is only a minor problem."

or

"There are concerns over the unencrypted storage of passwords and this is a really bad problem that people are very worried about."

But why are these better message for the developers to be hearing than just that there is a concern? Surely, if we believe the developers to be competent the judgement on what to do about the concern should be given to them not us. Ultimately, given that security is difficult and specialised, I'm not sure how reassured I'm going to be to hear that all concerns that forum people raised have been dealt with. Maybe:

"There are concerns over the unencrypted storage of passwords and some statement of how accepted security protocols will be followed or an external certification that the security is sound would be useful."

would be a good message to send.

By contrast, with a comment on how the automatch options work or something I would for sure want to have the view of as many people as possible clearly presented but security matters seem completely different.     
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Kirian on June 26, 2015, 04:29:09 pm
It's awkward for David that he's in this situation, but it doesn't seem to be his fault.  The developers are messing him around just as much as they are us.

I don't think I'd expressed this sentiment yet, but it's quite obvious.  Sorry your company is tossing you to the wolves, David.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: DavidTheDavid on June 26, 2015, 06:38:10 pm
It's awkward for David that he's in this situation, but it doesn't seem to be his fault.  The developers are messing him around just as much as they are us.

I don't think I'd expressed this sentiment yet, but it's quite obvious.  Sorry your company is tossing you to the wolves, David.

Well, thanks, but nobody sent me here. I knew the concern was expressed here, and I wanted to gather those concerns to relay back. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment.  ;D
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: popsofctown on June 27, 2015, 12:36:19 pm
I made an account and didn't get an activation email. Should i just try to make a new account?

Is there a super secret preference for existing accounts that means I oughtta link an email to my existing facebook based account?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: GendoIkari on June 27, 2015, 01:39:02 pm
Fingers crossed that we get a release out today that will resolve the server issues. I haven't seen the full release notes to know what else may be included, but keep an eye on the MF forum. There's always the chance that some oddball problem will popup when testing the new client, but again, fingers crossed.

New release is being tested.

Any idea on an ETA for it?
It's there now. :)

LordHumanton discussed an in-app alert to let people know when new versions are out. I'm not sure if that's in this one or not. THe sooner, the better.

Question for you; if someone owned one of the half-sets on Goko, how will that translate to set ownership in your system since you don't seem to have half-sets in your store?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on June 30, 2015, 03:27:59 pm
It looks like certain "clunky" UI actions weren't ever changed from early in the Goko days:

- Moneylender not auto-trashing (is there any good reason not to?)
- Dragging cards across the entire screen to top of deck (I forget which card made me do this, but it was very frustrating when playing full screen)

Are there plans to further streamline the UI?
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: werothegreat on June 30, 2015, 03:28:53 pm
It looks like certain "clunky" UI actions weren't ever changed from early in the Goko days:

- Moneylender not auto-trashing (is there any good reason not to?)
- Dragging cards across the entire screen to top of deck (I forget which card made me do this, but it was very frustrating when playing full screen)

Are there plans to further streamline the UI?

If Cutpurse and Taxman make you autodiscard, Moneylender should certainly make you auto-trash.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: SCSN on June 30, 2015, 03:36:12 pm
I for one appreciate that at least in some circumstances they allow you to protect your favorite Copper from their ruthless RNG to the detriment of the one you hate.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on June 30, 2015, 03:38:13 pm
I for one appreciate that at least in some circumstances they allow you to protect your favorite Copper from their ruthless RNG to the detriment of the one you hate.

I just wish it then wouldn't randomly shift my favorite copper to a different spot in my hand. I was holding it second from left FOR A GOOD REASON.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: sc0UT on June 30, 2015, 03:41:12 pm
- Dragging cards across the entire screen to top of deck (I forget which card made me do this, but it was very frustrating when playing full screen)

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/d/dd/Navigator.jpg)
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: GendoIkari on June 30, 2015, 05:09:40 pm
I for one appreciate that at least in some circumstances they allow you to protect your favorite Copper from their ruthless RNG to the detriment of the one you hate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkh6if8TL2U
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: markusin on June 30, 2015, 06:15:20 pm
It looks like certain "clunky" UI actions weren't ever changed from early in the Goko days:

- Moneylender not auto-trashing (is there any good reason not to?)
- Dragging cards across the entire screen to top of deck (I forget which card made me do this, but it was very frustrating when playing full screen)

Are there plans to further streamline the UI?
There are edge cases where you wouldn't want to auto-trash a copper (for example you plan to play the copper with Storyteller, but you need to play Moneylender, that you got from Sender Swindler, to start your Conspirator chain), but there is no "you may" on the card, so therefore it should auto-trash.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on June 30, 2015, 07:18:04 pm
It looks like certain "clunky" UI actions weren't ever changed from early in the Goko days:

- Moneylender not auto-trashing (is there any good reason not to?)
- Dragging cards across the entire screen to top of deck (I forget which card made me do this, but it was very frustrating when playing full screen)

Are there plans to further streamline the UI?
There are edge cases where you wouldn't want to auto-trash a copper (for example you plan to play the copper with Storyteller, but you need to play Moneylender, that you got from Sender, to start your Conspirator chain), but there is no "you may" on the card, so therefore it should auto-trash.

Exactly. Trashing isn't an option with the card, so I was wondering if there was any good reason not to auto-trash.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: pacovf on June 30, 2015, 07:46:52 pm
I for one appreciate that at least in some circumstances they allow you to protect your favorite Copper from their ruthless RNG to the detriment of the one you hate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkh6if8TL2U

Man, I don't think that scene will ever stop giving me the chills.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: markusin on June 30, 2015, 07:52:41 pm
It looks like certain "clunky" UI actions weren't ever changed from early in the Goko days:

- Moneylender not auto-trashing (is there any good reason not to?)
- Dragging cards across the entire screen to top of deck (I forget which card made me do this, but it was very frustrating when playing full screen)

Are there plans to further streamline the UI?
There are edge cases where you wouldn't want to auto-trash a copper (for example you plan to play the copper with Storyteller, but you need to play Moneylender, that you got from Sender, to start your Conspirator chain), but there is no "you may" on the card, so therefore it should auto-trash.

Exactly. Trashing isn't an option with the card, so I was wondering if there was any good reason not to auto-trash.
Not that I could think of unless you like clicking buttons for emphasis.

YUGIOOOOH!
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: sitnaltax on June 30, 2015, 07:56:07 pm
It looks like certain "clunky" UI actions weren't ever changed from early in the Goko days:

- Moneylender not auto-trashing (is there any good reason not to?)
- Dragging cards across the entire screen to top of deck (I forget which card made me do this, but it was very frustrating when playing full screen)

Are there plans to further streamline the UI?
There are edge cases where you wouldn't want to auto-trash a copper (for example you plan to play the copper with Storyteller, but you need to play Moneylender, that you got from Sender, to start your Conspirator chain), but there is no "you may" on the card, so therefore it should auto-trash.

Exactly. Trashing isn't an option with the card, so I was wondering if there was any good reason not to auto-trash.

I created a fan card with the text "this counts as a Copper as long as it is not in the Supply". Maybe they implemented that, so now you have to choose your Copper, just in case your hand includes my fan card.
Title: Re: Dominion Online Open Beta coming up shortly!
Post by: Seprix on June 30, 2015, 08:02:44 pm

Hilarious. Just repeat a statement over and over again and state that something was destined to be, and it's automatically enlightening. :)

I never watched the film, and I know I'm being totally stupid btw. :p