Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Game Reports => Topic started by: liopoil on May 22, 2015, 05:44:59 pm

Title: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: liopoil on May 22, 2015, 05:44:59 pm
Log: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150522/log.50a43f07e4b0addfc4f4304a.1432330167376.txt

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/fc/Plaza.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Plaza) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/cf/Talisman.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Talisman) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/6/61/Treasure_Map.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Treasure Map) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/5/5d/Counting_House.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Counting House) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/d/d7/Forge.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Forge)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/6/67/Native_Village.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Native Village) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/d/d2/Stonemason.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Stonemason) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/6/6d/Warehouse.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Warehouse) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/7/76/Ironworks.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Ironworks) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/4/42/Pirate_Ship.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Pirate Ship)
Code: [Select]
Native Village, Stonemason, Warehouse, Ironworks, Pirate Ship, Plaza, Talisman, Treasure Map, Counting House, Forge
I look at this board and see no draw, no +buy, weak trashing. No way to build an engine, and I decide that some BM strategy (what would that be here?) would lose to Pirate Ship. I am not sure I am right in that, but I think that it will be easy enough for the PS player to play pirate ship enough that they will pull it out. So I open warehouse/pirate ship. My opponent does too! So the race is on... and it's not simple.

I don't think Talisman, Ironworks, Treasure Map, Counting House, or Forge ever have a reason to be bought in this kingdom, except perhaps forge in weird circumstances. Anyway, I go the route where I try to trash my coppers with stonemason, while he goes for native villages. Despite this my opponent gets an early PS token lead, but I have significantly fewer coppers left. On turn 13 he picks up his mat, which I think was a mistake because he doesn't need to. He also starts to green, but he still has 3 coppers in his deck and only 3 PS tokens! On my turn 13 I get my 4th token and have a 5-card deck with stuff on the mat. On turn 14 I pick it all up, because I want the second pirate ship, and because I can easily get a coin token off the copper and then trash it, and also put two of my estates back on the mat. Now my deck is ready to green, and so that's what I do. From there I am able to play my two pirate ships pretty much every turn and buy a province, while setting aside green with native village. Warehouse was key here. On the one turn where I only have one pirate ship, I use my coin token to get an important duchy. In the end I manage to catch up and win it.

I thought that this board was pretty darn cool, if pirate ship really is the right choice. It's very tricky to play just right. I wonder what would happen if both players went for stonemason to trash the coppers, then each player might only get a couple tokens. That wouldn't really be enough to use pirate ship for economy, but we can't just build back up, so the game might stall out, and maybe even 3-pile on the 2-costs.
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: DG on May 22, 2015, 06:00:17 pm
Quote
I wonder what would happen if both players went for stonemason to trash the coppers, then each player might only get a couple tokens. That wouldn't really be enough to use pirate ship for economy, but we can't just build back up, so the game might stall out, and maybe even 3-pile on the 2-costs.

Depending upon how things play out, forge is quite capable of gaining provinces from 2 and 4 cost cards. Ironworks can keep gaining the fuel.
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: liopoil on May 22, 2015, 06:07:43 pm
Quote from: DG on May 22, 2015, 06:00:17 pm
Quote
I wonder what would happen if both players went for stonemason to trash the coppers, then each player might only get a couple tokens. That wouldn't really be enough to use pirate ship for economy, but we can't just build back up, so the game might stall out, and maybe even 3-pile on the 2-costs.

Depending upon how things play out, forge is quite capable of gaining provinces from 2 and 4 cost cards. Ironworks can keep gaining the fuel.
How do you get a forge?
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: Robz888 on May 22, 2015, 06:10:48 pm
I don't think Pirate Ship is going to win here. You have too much gain potential from Stonemason, Ironworks, and Forge. You can Stonemason for Two Treasure Maps to refill your Treasures if you are getting badly shipped.

Lack of +buy is really more of a problem for the Pirate Ship player, because he'll never beat 1 Province a turn, and I think by the time he gets there a non-Pirate Ship strategy will just win.
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: liopoil on May 22, 2015, 08:37:03 pm
Hmm, most importantly I forgot Warehouse/Treasure Map is a thing. Yeah, big money probably wins then :(. Unless you can get into a deck that plays 3 pirate ships a turn really quickly somehow, with some native village luck. Eventually you would only need to take coins with one of them and hopefully stall the Treasure Map player.

Why would big money get ironworks? I would just open warehouse/Treasure map and soon get another Treasure Map and then switch to money.
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: Flip5ide on May 22, 2015, 09:39:30 pm
You don't see Talisman being bought here?
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: liopoil on May 22, 2015, 09:54:12 pm
Quote from: Flip5ide on May 22, 2015, 09:39:30 pm
You don't see Talisman being bought here?
Yeah, seems like a major waste of time
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: Awaclus on May 22, 2015, 10:38:06 pm
I would build the engine with Plaza, Counting House and Warehouse. It's a bit clumsy, but at least it's an engine, and there's decent payload too (although the payload is somewhat clumsy as well). The major problem with Counting House engines is that you need a ton of engine pieces to make it work and it's not always easy to use +buy efficiently in the early game, but Stonemason and Ironworks help with that a lot. And then you can Stonemason your Estates into Coppers, which is pretty cool since you really don't want to have the Estates around but you don't mind the Coppers that much. Then you can use some combination of Pirate Ship, Treasure Map, Stonemason, Ironworks, Forge and probably a lot of coin tokens from Plazas for your payload.
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: Seprix on May 23, 2015, 11:40:27 am
Man, I could play a fast game here with all the Plazas, IW, and Stonemasons. Seems like a quick 3-pile, but as always, I'm not sure what I would pile, maybe Duchies would be a pile, since I can just sacrifice Gold to Stonemason. I for sure need more work with this line of thinking.
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: liopoil on May 23, 2015, 11:47:49 am
Quote from: Seprix on May 23, 2015, 11:40:27 am
Man, I could play a fast game here with all the Plazas, IW, and Stonemasons. Seems like a quick 3-pile, but as always, I'm not sure what I would pile, maybe Duchies would be a pile, since I can just sacrifice Gold to Stonemason. I for sure need more work with this line of thinking.
Wait what, how are you getting golds in your deck, and well if you start doing this I can just buy money.

Quote from: Awaclus on May 22, 2015, 10:38:06 pm
I would build the engine with Plaza, Counting House and Warehouse. It's a bit clumsy, but at least it's an engine, and there's decent payload too (although the payload is somewhat clumsy as well). The major problem with Counting House engines is that you need a ton of engine pieces to make it work and it's not always easy to use +buy efficiently in the early game, but Stonemason and Ironworks help with that a lot. And then you can Stonemason your Estates into Coppers, which is pretty cool since you really don't want to have the Estates around but you don't mind the Coppers that much. Then you can use some combination of Pirate Ship, Treasure Map, Stonemason, Ironworks, Forge and probably a lot of coin tokens from Plazas for your payload.
Woah. You might not have enough coppers if I play pirate ships? But I'd love to see this work.

I'd be happy to play this board again with somebody.
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: pubby on May 25, 2015, 07:21:19 pm
Quote from: liopoil on May 22, 2015, 08:37:03 pm
Why would big money get ironworks?
Open ironworks. Gain TMap turn 3/4. Gain silvers/warehouses from then on. Seems ok.

Quote from: Seprix on May 23, 2015, 11:40:27 am
Man, I could play a fast game here with all the Plazas, IW, and Stonemasons. Seems like a quick 3-pile
I don't see how that could be quick at all, especially if your opponent doesn't mirror.
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: liopoil on May 25, 2015, 07:26:44 pm
Quote from: pubby on May 25, 2015, 07:21:19 pm
Quote from: liopoil on May 22, 2015, 08:37:03 pm
Why would big money get ironworks?
Open ironworks. Gain TMap turn 3/4. Gain silvers/warehouses from then on. Seems ok.
Well, it seems much much worse than just opening TMap/Warehouse to me.
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: pubby on May 25, 2015, 07:54:54 pm
Quote from: liopoil on May 25, 2015, 07:26:44 pm
Quote from: pubby on May 25, 2015, 07:21:19 pm
Quote from: liopoil on May 22, 2015, 08:37:03 pm
Why would big money get ironworks?
Open ironworks. Gain TMap turn 3/4. Gain silvers/warehouses from then on. Seems ok.
Well, it seems much much worse than just opening TMap/Warehouse to me.
Silver/TMap has surprisingly good odds to get 2 TMaps and a Warehouse in your deck before second shuffle. Sometimes you can't get the warehouse, but the 2 maps is practically guaranteed with that opening.
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: liopoil on May 25, 2015, 07:56:10 pm
Okay, Silver/TMap. But certainly not Ironworks!
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: dghunter79 on June 03, 2015, 07:00:14 pm
I don't know if Pirate Ship/Warehouse is dominant, but I'd guess it holds its own against all the other possible strategies.
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: Cuzz on June 12, 2015, 03:43:34 pm
Hopping on this because I was about to post a game with almost the exact same question.

Kingdom:

Code: [Select]
Sage, Workshop, Advisor, Horse Traders, Militia, Pirate Ship, Mine, Royal Seal, Fairgrounds, King's Court
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150612/log.5123f4cee4b0920d7cbf5f48.1434137373957.txt

Is PS the way to go here? Worked out for me, but wasn't sure if there was something else optimal.
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: Roadrunner7671 on June 12, 2015, 04:00:31 pm
I don't like Pirate Ship, but I think it was the right play here.
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: liopoil on June 12, 2015, 04:07:57 pm
Quote from: Cuzz on June 12, 2015, 03:43:34 pm
Hopping on this because I was about to post a game with almost the exact same question.

Kingdom:

Code: [Select]
Sage, Workshop, Advisor, Horse Traders, Militia, Pirate Ship, Mine, Royal Seal, Fairgrounds, King's Court
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150612/log.5123f4cee4b0920d7cbf5f48.1434137373957.txt

Is PS the way to go here? Worked out for me, but wasn't sure if there was something else optimal.
I don't really think so. There's an engine with advisor and KC, and enough virtual cash that treasure trashing is fine.
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: terminalCopper on June 12, 2015, 04:30:14 pm
Quote from: liopoil on June 12, 2015, 04:07:57 pm
Quote from: Cuzz on June 12, 2015, 03:43:34 pm
Hopping on this because I was about to post a game with almost the exact same question.

Kingdom:

Code: [Select]
Sage, Workshop, Advisor, Horse Traders, Militia, Pirate Ship, Mine, Royal Seal, Fairgrounds, King's Court
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150612/log.5123f4cee4b0920d7cbf5f48.1434137373957.txt

Is PS the way to go here? Worked out for me, but wasn't sure if there was something else optimal.
I don't really think so. There's an engine with advisor and KC, and enough virtual cash that treasure trashing is fine.

I think buying PS is worse than Curse here. It is a clear kc-engine with gainer, draw, payload, extrabuy, everything -except trashing, provided by PS.
Title: Re: Pirate Ship Mirror
Post by: Cuzz on June 12, 2015, 04:56:22 pm
Quote from: terminalCopper on June 12, 2015, 04:30:14 pm
Quote from: liopoil on June 12, 2015, 04:07:57 pm
Quote from: Cuzz on June 12, 2015, 03:43:34 pm
Hopping on this because I was about to post a game with almost the exact same question.

Kingdom:

Code: [Select]
Sage, Workshop, Advisor, Horse Traders, Militia, Pirate Ship, Mine, Royal Seal, Fairgrounds, King's Court
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150612/log.5123f4cee4b0920d7cbf5f48.1434137373957.txt

Is PS the way to go here? Worked out for me, but wasn't sure if there was something else optimal.
I don't really think so. There's an engine with advisor and KC, and enough virtual cash that treasure trashing is fine.

I think buying PS is worse than Curse here. It is a clear kc-engine with gainer, draw, payload, extrabuy, everything -except trashing, provided by PS.

BM+Curse is bad in simulations, but I see what you mean. I think I just underestimate Advisor as the only real draw here. I find it frustrating a lot of the time.