Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: xyz123 on May 18, 2015, 06:28:46 pm
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I was wondering how far behind people think you need to be for it to be the right thing to resign.
I was playing a game on Goko where my opponent afterwards accused me of not resigning against an obviously better player and just dragging the game out in the hope he would resign out of boredom.
The game was long and drawn out but considering the board included Swindler, Marauder and no trashing I think that is inevitable. He also only beat me by 12 points and ended the game by buying the last province, which meant at the start of his last turn he was 6 points up.
I will admit he was most likely to win at that stage but it is not inconceivable that he could have only had 3 or 4 to spend and bought an Estate, with me Swindling one of his Duchies and picking up the last Province myself. In which case I would have won.
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I think as long as you're still legitimately playing (not just slowplaying the other person or whatever), there is never any obligation to resign. Basically resign if and when the lack of enjoyment from losing badly outweighs the likelihood of coming back and winning. Of course, even if you have no chance of winning, you still have the right to play through the game. Perhaps there's something more you can learn from it etc.
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The right moment to decide you don't want to waste time against "obviously inferior" players is before you actually start the game.
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Resign when you feel like resigning.
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My feeling is you have the right to resign whenever you don't feel like playing, and the right to keep playing whenever you want to. I think that begrudging someone who wants to play the game out for that small percentage that they'll win is petty.
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there is never any obligation to resign
This. Additionally:
One of the consequences of Dominion having a sizable component of chance is that it's very rare for a game to be a complete write off. I've lost count of the number of games I'm certain I have a total lock on, only to lose to poor shuffles, a surprise 3-pile or a poor decision to buy/not buy Provinces. The game is very rarely over before it's over.
Suggesting that your opponent resign when you're 6 points ahead with one Province remaining is just ridiculous.
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there is never any obligation to resign
This. Additionally:
One of the consequences of Dominion having a sizable component of chance is that it's very rare for a game to be a complete write off. I've lost count of the number of games I'm certain I have a total lock on, only to lose to poor shuffles, a surprise 3-pile or a poor decision to buy/not buy Provinces. The game is very rarely over before it's over.
Suggesting that your opponent resign when you're 6 points ahead with one Province remaining is just ridiculous.
The exception here is the 44 point threshold (41 with Shelters). With no alt VP available, when someone has half the points, the game is usually over. Obviously Swindler and other trashing attacks make this less solid, but it happens often enough to mention I think.
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I was playing a game on Goko where my opponent afterwards accused me of not resigning against an obviously better player and just dragging the game out in the hope he would resign out of boredom.
Sounds like your opponent was trash talking as much as he was complaining. I suggest blacklisting this opponent. Most online Dominion players are not so obnoxious.
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I was playing a game on Goko where my opponent afterwards accused me of not resigning against an obviously better player and just dragging the game out in the hope he would resign out of boredom.
Sounds like your opponent was trash talking as much as he was complaining. I suggest blacklisting this opponent. Most online Dominion players are not so obnoxious.
100% This.
Ignore these poor sports, and blacklist them if it bothers you. People who berate you for not resigning or taking time to think about your play are just poor sports who aren't worth your time.
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You never have any obligation to resign, even when it is mathematically impossible for you to win the match. If the would be winner isn't willing to play out the whole match, they shouldn't win. That simple.
That said, I tend to resign once it is literally impossible for me to win the match, unless the game is just a few turns from ending anyway.
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You never have any obligation to resign, even when it is mathematically impossible for you to win the match. If the would be winner isn't willing to play out the whole match, they shouldn't win. That simple.
That said, I tend to resign once it is literally impossible for me to win the match, unless the game is just a few turns from ending anyway.
Yes, it's a game.
It should be fun whether you are winning or not.
The time to resign is the point at which either you're no longer having fun or you think it would be more fun to play a new game.
For many people this coincides neatly with the point at which they think they can no longer win, but that's not the case for everybody.
Don't let anybody pressure you into resigning and don't ever be afraid to blacklist poor sports.
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You never have any obligation to resign, even when it is mathematically impossible for you to win the match. If the would be winner isn't willing to play out the whole match, they shouldn't win. That simple.
Yeah, you win either when the game declares you the winner or when your opponent declares you the winner. The loser has the prerogative to prematurely declare the result; the winner does not.
Of course, in a slog game in which the winner is clearly already determined but has no way to end the game within a few turns, resigning could be seen as a polite thing to do.
On the flip side, if your opponent is about to finish the game with a win or is very likely to on their next turn, I would consider it polite to allow them to do so rather than immediately resign.
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On the flip side, if your opponent is about to finish the game with a win or is very likely to on their next turn, I would consider it polite to allow them to do so rather than immediately resign.
I consider it polite to immediately resign. Basically, if you don't, it's because you're hoping that your opponent somehow doesn't see the forced win (which is fine, but not particularly polite), or it's because you're not paying enough attention yourself to see that the opponent has the forced win (which is fine, but not particularly polite), or it's because you're wasting everyone's time (which is rude).
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On the flip side, if your opponent is about to finish the game with a win or is very likely to on their next turn, I would consider it polite to allow them to do so rather than immediately resign.
I consider it polite to immediately resign. Basically, if you don't, it's because you're hoping that your opponent somehow doesn't see the forced win (which is fine, but not particularly polite), or it's because you're not paying enough attention yourself to see that the opponent has the forced win (which is fine, but not particularly polite), or it's because you're wasting everyone's time (which is rude).
…Or because you understand that some people think it's fun to actually get to run past the finish line to make the win.
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On the flip side, if your opponent is about to finish the game with a win or is very likely to on their next turn, I would consider it polite to allow them to do so rather than immediately resign.
I consider it polite to immediately resign. Basically, if you don't, it's because you're hoping that your opponent somehow doesn't see the forced win (which is fine, but not particularly polite), or it's because you're not paying enough attention yourself to see that the opponent has the forced win (which is fine, but not particularly polite), or it's because you're wasting everyone's time (which is rude).
…Or because you understand that some people think it's fun to actually get to run past the finish line to make the win.
That's the thing, I don't understand why anyone would think it's fun to click on buttons with no purpose.
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On the flip side, if your opponent is about to finish the game with a win or is very likely to on their next turn, I would consider it polite to allow them to do so rather than immediately resign.
I consider it polite to immediately resign. Basically, if you don't, it's because you're hoping that your opponent somehow doesn't see the forced win (which is fine, but not particularly polite), or it's because you're not paying enough attention yourself to see that the opponent has the forced win (which is fine, but not particularly polite), or it's because you're wasting everyone's time (which is rude).
I would suggest that most people would rather win by ending the game themselves rather than by being interrupted by a "Your opponent resigned" screen. While this preference is not more important than your right to resign, I would say it's generally preferable to allow your opponent a chance to finish the game if they can.
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On the flip side, if your opponent is about to finish the game with a win or is very likely to on their next turn, I would consider it polite to allow them to do so rather than immediately resign.
I consider it polite to immediately resign. Basically, if you don't, it's because you're hoping that your opponent somehow doesn't see the forced win (which is fine, but not particularly polite), or it's because you're not paying enough attention yourself to see that the opponent has the forced win (which is fine, but not particularly polite), or it's because you're wasting everyone's time (which is rude).
…Or because you understand that some people think it's fun to actually get to run past the finish line to make the win.
That's the thing, I don't understand why anyone would think it's fun to click on buttons with no purpose.
I think ever saying that it's rude to not resign is completely uncool.
Different people want different things.
Just because you want to hurry up and get on to the next game, doesn't mean your opponent does.
Isn't the purpose to have fun?
Is it only fun when you're winning?
Also, saying that it's impolite not to see when the game is immediately winnable is elitist boasting.
If your opponent isn't that good at tracking the game state, they are deliberately wasting your time?
Wow.
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(https://kwjwrites.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/galaxy-quest.jpg?w=223&h=300)
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On the flip side, if your opponent is about to finish the game with a win or is very likely to on their next turn, I would consider it polite to allow them to do so rather than immediately resign.
I consider it polite to immediately resign. Basically, if you don't, it's because you're hoping that your opponent somehow doesn't see the forced win (which is fine, but not particularly polite), or it's because you're not paying enough attention yourself to see that the opponent has the forced win (which is fine, but not particularly polite), or it's because you're wasting everyone's time (which is rude).
…Or because you understand that some people think it's fun to actually get to run past the finish line to make the win.
That's the thing, I don't understand why anyone would think it's fun to click on buttons with no purpose.
Imagine there's a trebuchet-building contest. It's down to you and one other contestant, and right before you're actually tested on how far your trebuchets can shoot and how much damage they can do, your opponent just says "Ah, fuck it, yours is better than mine, just take the damn prize." You've won, but it's rather disappointing. Even if your winning is a foregone conclusion, you still want to shoot the trebuchet.
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Imagine there's a trebuchet-building contest. It's down to you and one other contestant, and right before you're actually tested on how far your trebuchets can shoot and how much damage they can do, your opponent just says "Ah, fuck it, yours is better than mine, just take the damn prize." You've won, but it's rather disappointing. Even if your winning is a foregone conclusion, you still want to shoot the trebuchet.
This is the perfect analogy, because it works the other way too.
Sometimes I'm not resigning because I'm enjoying watching you shoot your trebuchet, even though I've barely managed to cobble together a rubber-band catapult.
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On the flip side, if your opponent is about to finish the game with a win or is very likely to on their next turn, I would consider it polite to allow them to do so rather than immediately resign.
I consider it polite to immediately resign. Basically, if you don't, it's because you're hoping that your opponent somehow doesn't see the forced win (which is fine, but not particularly polite), or it's because you're not paying enough attention yourself to see that the opponent has the forced win (which is fine, but not particularly polite), or it's because you're wasting everyone's time (which is rude).
…Or because you understand that some people think it's fun to actually get to run past the finish line to make the win.
That's the thing, I don't understand why anyone would think it's fun to click on buttons with no purpose.
I think ever saying that it's rude to not resign is completely uncool.
Different people want different things.
Just because you want to hurry up and get on to the next game, doesn't mean your opponent does.
Isn't the purpose to have fun?
Is it only fun when you're winning?
Also, saying that it's impolite not to see when the game is immediately winnable is elitist boasting.
If your opponent isn't that good at tracking the game state, they are deliberately wasting your time?
Wow.
I didn't say half of those things.
It's fine to not resign if you think your opponent might misplay. It's fine to not resign if you haven't realized the game is already over. If you're sure your opponent has the win and that he is also aware of it, then the only thing you're accomplishing by not resigning is wasting everyone's time, and I don't see how it's uncool to say that wasting everyone's time is rude.
The purpose is to have fun. Trying to win is fun (regardless of the actual outcome of the game; although I can also understand the reasons why some people think winning is more fun than losing), that's why people play games. It's not fun when I can't try to win. I can't try to win when I've already won, so that's not fun, and I can't try to win when I've already lost, so that's not fun either.
I did not say that it's impolite to not see when the game is immediately winnable. Being able to see it has absolutely nothing to do with politeness, i.e. it is "fine, but not particularly polite". I most certainly did not say that not tracking the game state is deliberately wasting my time — I said that not tracking the game state can be one potential reason to not resign, and deliberately wasting my time is another, and they don't have anything to do with each other and that's why they are separate reasons.
Actually, I don't even think it's reasonable to demand that your opponent pays any attention to the game at all during your turn.
Imagine there's a trebuchet-building contest. It's down to you and one other contestant, and right before you're actually tested on how far your trebuchets can shoot and how much damage they can do, your opponent just says "Ah, fuck it, yours is better than mine, just take the damn prize." You've won, but it's rather disappointing. Even if your winning is a foregone conclusion, you still want to shoot the trebuchet.
I've seen how many Provinces I can buy with $8 and one buy thousands of times. It's not particularly exciting.
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I think something got a little lost in translation there, because to me saying "not particularly polite" is the same as saying "impolite".
If you meant that it has nothing to do with politeness, then I think we are largely in agreement.
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Imagine there's a trebuchet-building contest. It's down to you and one other contestant, and right before you're actually tested on how far your trebuchets can shoot and how much damage they can do, your opponent just says "Ah, fuck it, yours is better than mine, just take the damn prize." You've won, but it's rather disappointing. Even if your winning is a foregone conclusion, you still want to shoot the trebuchet.
I've seen how many Provinces I can buy with $8 and one buy thousands of times. It's not particularly exciting.
Sure, but maybe my opponent has an engine that's guaranteed to piledrive Colonies next turn and there's nothing I can do about it. I could resign, but there's a decent chance that my opponent would like to play out that final turn. It's exciting, all the moreso if he's not a veteran with thousands of gains games under his belt. He still wants to shoot the trebuchet, and it's perfectly reasonable for me to let him. Some would even see it as rude to deny him that chance.
Edit: minor typo that was still sort of appropriate. :P
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What about resigning in a multiplayer game?
Wouldn't that always be impolite
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What about resigning in a multiplayer game?
Wouldn't that always be impolite
Yes.
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What about resigning in a multiplayer game?
Wouldn't that always be impolite
Yes.
One player resigning in a multiplayer game is annoying because it throws the balance out for the remaining players.
But if one player has an unassailable lead, I think it's fine for the remaining players to agree to resign as a group.
Of course, the current online implementation does not handle this situation at all well, so it just always sucks.
But who is playing multiplayer online anyway?
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What about resigning in a multiplayer game?
Wouldn't that always be impolite
Yes.
One player resigning in a multiplayer game is annoying because it throws the balance out for the remaining players.
But if one player has an unassailable lead, I think it's fine for the remaining players to agree to resign as a group.
Of course, the current online implementation does not handle this situation at all well, so it just always sucks.
But who is playing multiplayer online anyway?
I probably play a 3p game for every 5-10 2p games I play. Don't resign 3p+ games.
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Thanks for the replies.
I do resign and congratulate my opponent where I think there is no realistic hope of me winning, but in an example like this where all it needs is one bad draw for my opponent and a good one for me then it is certainly feasible. When I need multiple draws for both players to go my way is when I consider resigning.
I did have a game last week where I was at one point seriously considering resigning (I was about 30 points down) which I ended up winning. Admittedly it was due to extreme luck where on a possessed turn I bought 4 provinces and left my opponent with a hand of 4 victory cards and 1 copper for their next turn.
On the subject of resigning in 3 player games, that can lead to cheating. I played a game once against another registered player and a guest. The other registered player bought an estate on their first turn and the guest immediately resigned.
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If you're sure your opponent has the win and that he is also aware of it, then the only thing you're accomplishing by not resigning is wasting everyone's time, and I don't see how it's uncool to say that wasting everyone's time is rude.
The purpose is to have fun. Trying to win is fun (regardless of the actual outcome of the game; although I can also understand the reasons why some people think winning is more fun than losing), that's why people play games. It's not fun when I can't try to win. I can't try to win when I've already won, so that's not fun, and I can't try to win when I've already lost, so that's not fun either.
This seems rather closed-minded. Maybe to you the only thing that is fun in games is trying to win, but certainly you should be able to see how other people might find other parts of games fun, no? Maybe they want to see how the deck plays out even in a losing effort, perhaps for educational purposes. Maybe they appreciate some sort of aesthetic beauty in the construction of a deck. Yes it is less fun to play with people who don't play the game for the same reason as you, but it is still rude to berate them for not seeing it the same way as you.
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I was playing a game the other day with Ironmonger and Poor House, and Loan for trashing. I wasn't sure how good what I was doing was, and I wish I'd been allowed to play long enough to find out. It would be nice if when your opponent resigns you had the option of continuing against a bot or even solitaire.
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On a funnier note, I was playing a game the other day where I was about 100 points behind and opponent resigned. I think he was a little too quick to do so, but it wasn't unreasonable in the situation:-)
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I was playing a game the other day with Ironmonger and Poor House, and Loan for trashing. I wasn't sure how good what I was doing was, and I wish I'd been allowed to play long enough to find out. It would be nice if when your opponent resigns you had the option of continuing against a bot or even solitaire.
Try recreating it if you remember the Kingdom; that sounds fun.
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Ignore these poor sports, and blacklist them if it bothers you. People who berate you for not resigning or taking time to think about your play are just poor sports who aren't worth your time.
Wanted to pick up on this other issue of taking time to think... I've found myself avoiding playing live on line because I like to actually think about the game once in a while when I play, and am admittedly oversensitive to people saying 'faster please', which I remember happening a lot on Isotropic as well as on Goko now. Is this really considered gauche now, and are these people really outliers? I even thought about labeling my table "No rushing - Thinking allowed" or something, but thought that would sound hopelessly anal! ;)
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If someone asks you to play faster, that's their fault, not yours. Sometimes, to win you need to think more. If people don't want to play with someone who doesn't want to win, then they should find others of a similar mindset to play with, not get mad at you for doing what is what you are technically supposed to do (as one of the points of a game is to win it (along with other things, of course)).
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I don't join games with "fast" in the title. I never worry about taking too long to make decisions, and very rarely get questioned about it. I would not be surprised to find that part of the reason is that I mostly play high level opponents.