(Herbalist (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Combo:_Philosopher%27s_Stone_and_Herbalist) also helps)
(Herbalist (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Combo:_Philosopher%27s_Stone_and_Herbalist) also helps)
The couple times I've tried PSTone/Herbalist, it's just seemed far too slow to actually work. I might not be playing it optimally, though.
Anything that allows you to play your Philosopher's Stones more often is good, especially if it doesn't lower P.Stone's value. Herbalist is the big one; it gives you +1 Buy and allows you to topdeck a played P.Stone. Warehouse and Cellar are nice. Cartographer removes a card from your deck/discard, but is still a good option. Scavenger is great.
Anything that allows you to play your Philosopher's Stones more often is good, especially if it doesn't lower P.Stone's value. Herbalist is the big one; it gives you +1 Buy and allows you to topdeck a played P.Stone. Warehouse and Cellar are nice. Cartographer removes a card from your deck/discard, but is still a good option. Scavenger is great.
I don't know how much of a thing this really is but Storeroom seems like it should be a good enabler to add to this list. The sifting helps find your Potion to buy Stones and then to find your Stones when you have them, the second discard maximises the number of cards that your Stones count, and it has a +buy.
drawing your deck is awesome.
The main point is dont waste early buys on non herbalist cards.
Philosopher's stone is balanced for 3 player games and there it is fine.
"When is Philosopher's Stone strong?"
Maybe with Storyteller when combined with other potion cost cards? The fewer cards you've drawn in your turn so far, the more you'll draw with PS when played through Storyteller.
Philosopher's stone is balanced for 3 player games and there it is fine.
How so?
I think Phil Stone is usually only viable when it appears with Herbalist. If there's no Herbalist around, I've never seen a board where you go for Potion just to get Phil Stone, ever.
[...]
I think Phil Stone + Big Money loses to just Big Money, right? I mean maybe you throw in Woodcutter and it gets better, but basically I'm never playing Phil Stone/Big Money.
Philosopher's Stone is a tough sell without other Alchemy cards available.
When do you go for Philosopher's Stone, then? Certain other Potion-cost cards make it a no-brainer. Familiar is chief among them.
I think Phil Stone is usually only viable when it appears with Herbalist. If there's no Herbalist around, I've never seen a board where you go for Potion just to get Phil Stone, ever.
[...]
I think Phil Stone + Big Money loses to just Big Money, right? I mean maybe you throw in Woodcutter and it gets better, but basically I'm never playing Phil Stone/Big Money.
BM+JunkingAttack is played somewhat often and P.Stone is usually worth considering there. Big money with Mountebank, Familiar, or Cultist is improved by buying P.Stones. Big money with other junkers is improved but only on Colony boards. I'm not sure how BM+Ambassador fares.
QuotePhilosopher's Stone is a tough sell without other Alchemy cards available.
3. ^ That advice is exactly backwards. With the exception of Herbalist, the majority of alchemy cards are exactly the kind of cards you do NOT want to see on a board to make P stone viable.QuoteWhen do you go for Philosopher's Stone, then? Certain other Potion-cost cards make it a no-brainer. Familiar is chief among them.
4. ^ Again, this is wrong. Familiar and P stone is not worth any mention, there is practically nothing special about how they play on the same board
I don't think Herbalist Pstone is very good at all. Sometimes it looks really good if you hit 3P a lot and line up the Herbalists, but it often does all of jack squat. It's an extremely low bar for something else to be better.
That's what I was thinking. It definitely seems like something that sounds good on paper, but just doesn't really work in practice.
QuotePhilosopher's Stone is a tough sell without other Alchemy cards available.
3. ^ That advice is exactly backwards. With the exception of Herbalist, the majority of alchemy cards are exactly the kind of cards you do NOT want to see on a board to make P stone viable.
For the rest of this post, let's take it as given that you can't draw your deck.
Even then, Philosopher's Stone is a tough sell without other Alchemy cards available.
I'd like to see a simulation that shows a big money strategy that's improved by the use of Phil Stone. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I can't really think of anything like that. The only one I can think of is Familiar...
Strategy | VP | Win% (with P.Stone)
-----------------+-----------+------
BigMoney | Provinces | 36.3%
BigMoney | Colonies | 47.4%
DoubleWitch | Provinces | 56.1%
DoubleWitch | Colonies | 66.7%
DoubleMountebank | Provinces | 61.5%
DoubleMountebank | Colonies | 78.2%
SingleSeaHag | Provinces | 62.1%
SingleSeaHag | Colonies | 78.8%
{
name: 'DoubleWitchPStone'
requires: ['Witch', "Philosopher's Stone"]
gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
"Colony" if my.countInDeck("Platinum") > 0
"Province" if state.countInSupply("Colony") <= 6
"Witch" if my.countInDeck("Witch") < 2
"Duchy" if 0 < state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
"Estate" if 0 < state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
"Philosopher's Stone"
"Platinum"
"Gold"
"Potion" if my.countInDeck("Potion") < 1 and my.countInDeck("Silver") >= 2
"Silver"
]
}
{
name: 'DoubleMountebankPStone'
requires: ['Mountebank', "Philosopher's Stone"]
gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
"Colony" if my.countInDeck("Platinum") > 0
"Province" if state.countInSupply("Colony") <= 6 and my.countInDeck("Gold") > 0
"Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
"Mountebank" if my.countInDeck("Mountebank") < 2
"Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
"Philosopher's Stone"
"Platinum"
"Gold"
"Potion" if my.countInDeck("Potion") < 1 and my.countInDeck("Silver") >= 2
"Silver"
]
}
{
name: 'SingleSeaHagPStone'
requires: ['Sea Hag', "Philosopher's Stone"]
gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
"Colony" if my.countInDeck("Platinum") > 0
"Province" if state.countInSupply("Colony") <= 6
"Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
"Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
"Philosopher's Stone"
"Platinum"
"Gold"
"Sea Hag" if my.countInDeck("Sea Hag") < 1
"Potion" if my.countInDeck("Potion") < 1 and my.countInDeck("Silver") >= 2
"Silver"
]
}
{
name: 'BigMoneyPStone'
author: 'WanderingWinder'
requires: ["Philosopher's Stone"]
gainPriority: (state, my) ->
if state.supply.Colony?
[
"Colony" if my.getTotalMoney() > 32
"Province" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 6
"Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
"Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
"Philosopher's Stone"
"Platinum"
"Province" if state.countInSupply("Colony") <= 7
"Gold"
"Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 6
"Potion" if my.countInDeck("Potion") < 1 and my.countInDeck("Silver") >= 2
"Silver"
"Copper" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
]
else
[
"Province" if my.getTotalMoney() > 18
"Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 4
"Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
"Philosopher's Stone"
"Gold"
"Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 6
"Potion" if my.countInDeck("Potion") < 1 and my.countInDeck("Silver") >= 2
"Silver"
]
}
---------- Stef: turn 13 ----------
Stef - plays Squire
Stef - takes 2 actions
Stef - plays Fortune Teller
Polk5440 - shuffles deck
Polk5440 - reveals Forge, Herald, Squire, Copper, Herald, Potion, Herald, Advisor, Copper, Herald, Copper, Copper, Estate
Polk5440 - discards: Forge, Herald, Squire, Copper, Herald, Potion, Herald, Advisor, Copper, Herald, Copper, Copper
Stef - plays Potion
Stef - buys Philosopher's Stone
Stef - gains Philosopher's Stone
...
---------- Stef: turn 15 ----------
...
Stef - plays Stonemason
Stef - trashes Philosopher's Stone
Stef - gains Vineyard
Stef - gains Vineyard
Isn't there some sort of background story with the padlock on the P-Stone box? I'm no historian, but I thought I remember reading somewhere on these forums that there was controversy with if they should have the padlock there or not, because padlocks of that type weren't yet in Europe during the Dark or Middle Ages (which Dominion is largely based on), or something like that.
Philosopher's Stone: The padlock is anachronistic (they had padlocks, but not that style). The philosopher's stone is a substance, which some guessed would be a red powder, so the artwork isn't otherwise off.
I could see Philosopher's Stone being useful in a Scheme/Golem/X deck. You would have bought potions to get Golem but you would not want any more action cards.The problem with that is that Scheme/Golem/X decks aren't very good in the first place.
Thanks for taking that quote completely out of context. The context is that you can't draw your deck. See?I read your context. Alchemy cards incrementally help you draw and do other things that, when you can do them, make P stone less viable. So Alchemy cards do not help P stone's viability, they incrementally hurt it, and to claim otherwise is backwards. The more (non-Herbalist) alchemy cards you see, the less you want to go for P stone.
Philosopher's Stone is often great on a Familiar board.Its greatness or lack thereof really isn't impacted at all by Familiar. When you see familiar, you worry about winning the curse split and about trashing, not flooding your deck with coppers. They anti-synergize in this respect. They synergize slightly in that you can use your potion to buy a P stone after familiars, though at that point you usually don't have the kind of deck where you want to start adding coppers. Overall it's a meaningless wash, Familiar + P stone is not at all relevant, much less "often great"
Oh no, philosopher's stone is great in a familiar kingdom.
Thanks for taking that quote completely out of context. The context is that you can't draw your deck. See?I read your context. Alchemy cards incrementally help you draw and do other things that, when you can do them, make P stone less viable. So Alchemy cards do not help P stone's viability, they incrementally hurt it, and to claim otherwise is backwards. The more (non-Herbalist) alchemy cards you see, the less you want to go for P stone.QuotePhilosopher's Stone is often great on a Familiar board.Its greatness or lack thereof really isn't impacted at all by Familiar. When you see familiar, you worry about winning the curse split and about trashing, not flooding your deck with coppers. They anti-synergize in this respect. They synergize slightly in that you can use your potion to buy a P stone after familiars, though at that point you usually don't have the kind of deck where you want to start adding coppers. Overall it's a meaningless wash, Familiar + P stone is not at all relevant, much less "often great"
Beyond Awesome and I played Cursecatchers today (Adventures/Alchemy kingdom). It had four Potion cards, including Philosopher's Stone. Neither of us bought one.
Beyond Awesome and I played Cursecatchers today (Adventures/Alchemy kingdom). It had four Potion cards, including Philosopher's Stone. Neither of us bought one.
Probably you should have.
Beyond Awesome and I played Cursecatchers today (Adventures/Alchemy kingdom). It had four Potion cards, including Philosopher's Stone. Neither of us bought one.
Probably you should have.
The board in question:
Save, Trade / Peasant, Bridge Troll, Ratcatcher, Caravan Guard, Amulet / Golem, Apothecary, Herbalist, Familiar, Philosopher's Stone
In a 2 player game I wouldn't buy P-stone over any of the non Potion costing actions let alone any of the Potion costing ones.
I get it LF, you like P-stone
but sorry it's bad and in general gets worse with other Alchemy cards.
Knowing you, if you actually played that set of 10, you'd probably end up with something like 8 Caravan Guards, 6 Bridge Trolls, 4 Ratcatchers, 1 Familiar, 1 Golem, 1 Teacher, 4 Coppers, 4 Silvers, 1 Potion, and 4 Curses.Beyond Awesome and I played Cursecatchers today (Adventures/Alchemy kingdom). It had four Potion cards, including Philosopher's Stone. Neither of us bought one.
Probably you should have.
The board in question:
Save, Trade / Peasant, Bridge Troll, Ratcatcher, Caravan Guard, Amulet / Golem, Apothecary, Herbalist, Familiar, Philosopher's Stone
In a 2 player game I wouldn't buy P-stone over any of the non Potion costing actions let alone any of the Potion costing ones.
Probably you should.
Knowing you, if you actually played that set of 10, you'd probably end up with something like 8 Caravan Guards, 6 Bridge Trolls, 4 Ratcatchers, 1 Familiar, 1 Golem, 1 Teacher, 4 Coppers, 4 Silvers, 1 Potion, and 4 Curses.Beyond Awesome and I played Cursecatchers today (Adventures/Alchemy kingdom). It had four Potion cards, including Philosopher's Stone. Neither of us bought one.
Probably you should have.
The board in question:
Save, Trade / Peasant, Bridge Troll, Ratcatcher, Caravan Guard, Amulet / Golem, Apothecary, Herbalist, Familiar, Philosopher's Stone
In a 2 player game I wouldn't buy P-stone over any of the non Potion costing actions let alone any of the Potion costing ones.
Probably you should.
Upon reflection, Storeroom is probably a better enabler for PS than Herbalist; it sifts through your bulky deck to find your PSs and Potion, gives +Buy, and increases your deck size when it's done, giving you some extra coin in the process, making it easier to get $3P in the first place.
Philosopher's Stone has an inherent problem: It needs a lot of cards in your deck (that you can't play), but this means you'll see your Stones less often. It's a paradoxical card. You can't really rely on it being your main source of income, so you can't really create a deck for it.
Philosopher's Stone is typically something you stumble into buying because you already have a Potion for another card you wanted. It makes for some tactical decisions: Do you buy one more Familiar to win the curse war or get a PS instead, getting a better long term reward?
PS could be much more interesting if it didn't require a Potion, it would have made a decent promo actually, because of the card counting thing. It's just a shame that very few cards can do anything useful with it due to its paradoxical nature. What can deal with a bloated deck in which you need to find particular Treasures? I can only think of Adventurer of the top of my head and Herbalist has its novelty topdecking thing going on.
Philosopher's Stone might be alright with Storyteller. Maybe.
Pstone's big problem is that it is pretty much solely a source of +coin and all sources of +coin have to compete with Gold and Silver. Unlike with say trashing, there are very few times where what Pstone gives is only possible with Pstone so it has to clear a much higher opportunity cost to be useful.
…
Pstone's ultimate problem is Gold. Gold does most everything Pstone wants to do, better. It is just marginally harder to buy Gold early game and possibly less valuable late game; otherwise pretty much every comparison favors Gold the vast majority of the time.
I am not ignoring that part of his post; the opportunity cost consideration is right there in what you quoted above from me. And as I noted, the effect is slight.Quote from: GheraldIts greatness or lack thereof really isn't impacted at all by Familiar. When you see familiar, you worry about winning the curse split and about trashing, not flooding your deck with coppers. They anti-synergize in this respect. They synergize slightly in that you can use your potion to buy a P stone after familiars, though at that point you usually don't have the kind of deck where you want to start adding coppers. Overall it's a meaningless wash, Familiar + P stone is not at all relevant, much less "often great"
Other Potion-cost cards lower opportunity cost of PStone because there's more stuff to buy with your Potion. That's the part of LF's post that you're ignoring.
If there's adequate trashing you shouldn't be going after PStone anyway; that has nothing to do with Familiar. If there isn't trashing, PStone is good because Familiar is filling your deck with Curses. PStone is often worthwhile then without you adding Coppers.
Hmmm. How well does Hunting Party interact with PStone? Playing HP increases your hand size, but it's much better at filtering out and finding an individual PStone if you manage to bloat your deck up really fast.
Especially since the potion adds another unique card to your deck.Hmmm. How well does Hunting Party interact with PStone? Playing HP increases your hand size, but it's much better at filtering out and finding an individual PStone if you manage to bloat your deck up really fast.
If there's Hunting Party in the kingdom, you can probably do something a lot better than Philosopher's Stone.
I am not ignoring that part of his post; the opportunity cost consideration is right there in what you quoted above from me. And as I noted, the effect is slight.Quote from: GheraldIts greatness or lack thereof really isn't impacted at all by Familiar. When you see familiar, you worry about winning the curse split and about trashing, not flooding your deck with coppers. They anti-synergize in this respect. They synergize slightly in that you can use your potion to buy a P stone after familiars, though at that point you usually don't have the kind of deck where you want to start adding coppers. Overall it's a meaningless wash, Familiar + P stone is not at all relevant, much less "often great"
Other Potion-cost cards lower opportunity cost of PStone because there's more stuff to buy with your Potion. That's the part of LF's post that you're ignoring.
If there's adequate trashing you shouldn't be going after PStone anyway; that has nothing to do with Familiar. If there isn't trashing, PStone is good because Familiar is filling your deck with Curses. PStone is often worthwhile then without you adding Coppers.
Why is it slight? Rarely in a P stone board with a normal curser such as Witch or Sea Hag do you stop and think "omg there is no adequate trashing and my opponent is going to hand me 5-6 curses, I'd better think about going some P stones". That curser effect is very small in the decision to go for P stones.
Familiar synergizes slightly more than a generic curser because you already want a potion for some familiars, but this additional effect is very rarely something that makes the difference in whether a P stone strategy worthwhile vs. not worthwhile. Having that potion around is far more likely to lead to the occasional "what the hell, I guess I'll pick up a Philosopher's Stone with my 3P/4P buy" than it is to lead you to intentionally build something around P stones.
So, when someone claims something like:
"Certain other Potion-cost cards make it a no-brainer. Familiar is chief among them. "
They're simply wrong. Familiar/P Stone is not worth any special mention. On some occasions it'll be a good idea, but really very rarely. It's not a thing to any notable degree more than '{generic curser}/P stone' is a thing.
I think you have an excellent point that, unlike many other Potion-cost cards, P.Stone has nothing unique to offer; it only gives Coins, which are always available in the form of Silver and Gold. But in the kind of deck that wants P.Stone, it surpasses Gold very rapidly. That's without using every spare buy on Coppers, even. It gets to $3 quite rapidly and should be worth from $6 to $8 before game's end.
Even just the cards it takes to sift can really slow down Pstone's value gain. Something good, like Warehouse, might be able to churn through 14 cards a turn ... but at the price of lagging a turn or two on the value of Pstone. Cellar engines can churn more ... but each card in play is dead to your Pstone. To beat gold, Pstone needs to have 25 cards in the deck or worse have 22 with Pstone and a single discarder. In order to chain most sifting you need a lot of sifters which normally decrease your buying power (e.g. Cellar or Warehouse) or you need some Sifting Engine. The latter can actually work ... but that is a lot of cards that support a lot of other options better.
Even just the cards it takes to sift can really slow down Pstone's value gain. Something good, like Warehouse, might be able to churn through 14 cards a turn ... but at the price of lagging a turn or two on the value of Pstone. Cellar engines can churn more ... but each card in play is dead to your Pstone. To beat gold, Pstone needs to have 25 cards in the deck or worse have 22 with Pstone and a single discarder. In order to chain most sifting you need a lot of sifters which normally decrease your buying power (e.g. Cellar or Warehouse) or you need some Sifting Engine. The latter can actually work ... but that is a lot of cards that support a lot of other options better.
If I'm reading this part correctly, it's wrong. Playing a Warehouse or Cellar doesn't ever decrease the value of your PStones.
The rest all sounds good in theory, and yet doesn't line up with my experience at all. I think the upshot is that yes, you want something that gives you extra gains or +Buy. But you'll have one of those in the majority of games.
Warehouse draws 3 but also discards 3, leaving the number of cards in your deck and discard the same. In your example, PStone is still worth $3 after you play Warehouse.
It can make a difference if you go heavy on warehouse, and one warehouse draws another warehouse that you would not have otherwise played. Otherwise, it doesn't.