Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: majiponi on May 04, 2015, 05:44:24 am
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Is Band of misfits played as if Page exchangeable?
I'd like to ask what happens when I try to return Band of misfits to "its" pile. Please explain.
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I would imagine you can return it to the Band of Misfits pile for a Treasure Hunter.
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Is Band of misfits played as if Page exchangeable?
I'd like to ask what happens when I try to return Band of misfits to "its" pile. Please explain.
When Band of Misfits is Page, it's from the Page pile. You cannot return it to the Page pile, that is a new ruling. You can't exchange cards unless you return the card so you can't upgrade BoM-as-Page.
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Thanks a lot!
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When Band of Misfits is Page, it's from the Page pile. You cannot return it to the Page pile, that is a new ruling. You can't exchange cards unless you return the card so you can't upgrade BoM-as-Page.
I guess the same then applies for Estate with your Estate token on Page?
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When Band of Misfits is Page, it's from the Page pile. You cannot return it to the Page pile, that is a new ruling. You can't exchange cards unless you return the card so you can't upgrade BoM-as-Page.
I guess the same then applies for Estate with your Estate token on Page?
Yes.
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When Band of Misfits is Page, it's from the Page pile. You cannot return it to the Page pile, that is a new ruling. You can't exchange cards unless you return the card so you can't upgrade BoM-as-Page.
I guess the same then applies for Estate with your Estate token on Page?
Yes.
Wait, why? You can return the Estate to the Estate pile no problem.
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When Band of Misfits is Page, it's from the Page pile. You cannot return it to the Page pile, that is a new ruling. You can't exchange cards unless you return the card so you can't upgrade BoM-as-Page.
I guess the same then applies for Estate with your Estate token on Page?
Yes.
Wait, why? You can return the Estate to the Estate pile no problem.
But exchanging requires you to return it to the Page pile, not its pile.
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When Band of Misfits is Page, it's from the Page pile. You cannot return it to the Page pile, that is a new ruling. You can't exchange cards unless you return the card so you can't upgrade BoM-as-Page.
I guess the same then applies for Estate with your Estate token on Page?
Yes.
Wait, why? You can return the Estate to the Estate pile no problem.
But exchanging requires you to return it to the Page pile, not its pile.
Neither the rule booklet nor the text on the Page card says this.
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When Band of Misfits is Page, it's from the Page pile. You cannot return it to the Page pile, that is a new ruling. You can't exchange cards unless you return the card so you can't upgrade BoM-as-Page.
I guess the same then applies for Estate with your Estate token on Page?
Yes.
Wait, why? You can return the Estate to the Estate pile no problem.
But exchanging requires you to return it to the Page pile, not its pile.
I'm not sure about this. I seem to recall us returning EstatePages to the Estate pile and getting Treasure Hunters. Maybe we were playing it wrong.
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When Band of Misfits is Page, it's from the Page pile. You cannot return it to the Page pile, that is a new ruling. You can't exchange cards unless you return the card so you can't upgrade BoM-as-Page.
I guess the same then applies for Estate with your Estate token on Page?
Yes.
Wait, why? You can return the Estate to the Estate pile no problem.
But exchanging requires you to return it to the Page pile, not its pile.
I'm not sure about this. I seem to recall us returning EstatePages to the Estate pile and getting Treasure Hunters. Maybe we were playing it wrong.
I may have been conflating this with Black Market Page. And Band of Misfits Page? I'm pretty sure Donald said BoM Pages can't be exchanged.
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When Band of Misfits is Page, it's from the Page pile. You cannot return it to the Page pile, that is a new ruling. You can't exchange cards unless you return the card so you can't upgrade BoM-as-Page.
I guess the same then applies for Estate with your Estate token on Page?
Yes.
Wait, why? You can return the Estate to the Estate pile no problem.
But exchanging requires you to return it to the Page pile, not its pile.
I'm not sure about this. I seem to recall us returning EstatePages to the Estate pile and getting Treasure Hunters. Maybe we were playing it wrong.
I may have been conflating this with Black Market Page. And Band of Misfits Page? I'm pretty sure Donald said BoM Pages can't be exchanged.
He did; it's quoted in this very box.
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When Band of Misfits is Page, it's from the Page pile. You cannot return it to the Page pile, that is a new ruling. You can't exchange cards unless you return the card so you can't upgrade BoM-as-Page.
I guess the same then applies for Estate with your Estate token on Page?
Yes.
Wait, why? You can return the Estate to the Estate pile no problem.
But exchanging requires you to return it to the Page pile, not its pile.
I'm not sure about this. I seem to recall us returning EstatePages to the Estate pile and getting Treasure Hunters. Maybe we were playing it wrong.
I may have been conflating this with Black Market Page. And Band of Misfits Page? I'm pretty sure Donald said BoM Pages can't be exchanged.
That's because Band of Misfits becomes Page, and Page is from the Page pile, and you can't return a Band of Misfits to the Page pile because BoM is not from that pile. But I'd think that you could exchange EstatePages, because Estate doesn't actually become Page, it just gains its abilities, so "its pile" is the Estate pile, and you can definitely return an Estate to the Estate pile.
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I think we have to call them Estages. Contrasted with Esteasants.
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That's because Band of Misfits becomes Page, and Page is from the Page pile, and you can't return a Band of Misfits to the Page pile because BoM is not from that pile. But I'd think that you could exchange EstatePages, because Estate doesn't actually become Page, it just gains its abilities, so "its pile" is the Estate pile, and you can definitely return an Estate to the Estate pile.
I don't see the difference between BoM and EstatePage. They could both be returned to their respective piles. When you're trying to return it to its pile, BoM is just a BoM. But Donald's ruling says that it has to be the Page pile. Therefore that also applies to EstatePage.
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That's because Band of Misfits becomes Page, and Page is from the Page pile, and you can't return a Band of Misfits to the Page pile because BoM is not from that pile. But I'd think that you could exchange EstatePages, because Estate doesn't actually become Page, it just gains its abilities, so "its pile" is the Estate pile, and you can definitely return an Estate to the Estate pile.
I don't see the difference between BoM and EstatePage. They could both be returned to their respective piles. When you're trying to return it to its pile, BoM is just a BoM. But Donald's ruling says that it has to be the Page pile. Therefore that also applies to EstatePage.
No, the problem is that when you're trying to return it to its pile, BoM is still Page. So you'd be trying to return a Page to the Page pile, but when it gets to the Page pile, it's metamorphosed back into a Band of Misfits and you can't put a Band of Misfits in the Page pile. So the whole operation crashes.
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That's because Band of Misfits becomes Page, and Page is from the Page pile, and you can't return a Band of Misfits to the Page pile because BoM is not from that pile. But I'd think that you could exchange EstatePages, because Estate doesn't actually become Page, it just gains its abilities, so "its pile" is the Estate pile, and you can definitely return an Estate to the Estate pile.
I don't see the difference between BoM and EstatePage. They could both be returned to their respective piles. When you're trying to return it to its pile, BoM is just a BoM. But Donald's ruling says that it has to be the Page pile. Therefore that also applies to EstatePage.
No, the problem is that when you're trying to return it to its pile, BoM is still Page. So you'd be trying to return a Page to the Page pile, but when it gets to the Page pile, it's metamorphosed back into a Band of Misfits and you can't put a Band of Misfits in the Page pile. So the whole operation crashes.
I see now that Donald wrote that. But to my mind BoM is already reverted back when you're trying to exchange it. It's in your discard pile at that point. At the moment you discard it, it's a Page, yes. But when you resolve the when-discard ability, it's already in your discard pile. Compare to how "when-gain" works for Watchtower or Royal Seal. It triggers when you gain, but when you resolve it, the gained card is already in your discard pile.
So then I would say that if the criteria is just that you're able to return the card to its pile, whichever pile that might be, both BoM-Page and EstatePage should work.
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I see now that Donald wrote that. But to my mind BoM is already reverted back when you're trying to exchange it. It's in your discard pile at that point. At the moment you discard it, it's a Page, yes. But when you resolve the when-discard ability, it's already in your discard pile. Compare to how "when-gain" works for Watchtower or Royal Seal. It triggers when you gain, but when you resolve it, the gained card is already in your discard pile.
So then I would say that if the criteria is just that you're able to return the card to its pile, whichever pile that might be, both BoM-Page and EstatePage should work.
I see. I was thinking that BoM would still be BoM and you would be trying to put it into the Page pile. However you already discarded it from play, you pick it up from the top of your discard pile (even though this is never what anyone does), and it's a BoM now.
So, you can upgrade BoM or Estates-Inheriting-Page. You return BoM to the BoM pile, Estate to the Estate pile.
Black Market still doesn't work (whether Page or BoM copying Page), there is no pile to return the card to.
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Good call, Jeebus!
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Now I'm just thinking what a colossal waste of a Band of Misfits that would be.
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I see now that Donald wrote that. But to my mind BoM is already reverted back when you're trying to exchange it. It's in your discard pile at that point. At the moment you discard it, it's a Page, yes. But when you resolve the when-discard ability, it's already in your discard pile. Compare to how "when-gain" works for Watchtower or Royal Seal. It triggers when you gain, but when you resolve it, the gained card is already in your discard pile.
So then I would say that if the criteria is just that you're able to return the card to its pile, whichever pile that might be, both BoM-Page and EstatePage should work.
I see. I was thinking that BoM would still be BoM and you would be trying to put it into the Page pile. However you already discarded it from play, you pick it up from the top of your discard pile (even though this is never what anyone does), and it's a BoM now.
So, you can upgrade BoM or Estates-Inheriting-Page. You return BoM to the BoM pile, Estate to the Estate pile.
Black Market still doesn't work (whether Page or BoM copying Page), there is no pile to return the card to.
I'm going to try pulling a 'feed the blue dog and take it for a walk' trick as per the Possession/Ironworks discussion. I don't know if it will work.
The rules say "When a player discards a Traveller from play, he may exchange it for the card indicated"
What does 'it' mean? Shouldn't it mean "the Traveller that was discarded from play"? In which case shouldn't exchanging BoM fail because there isn't a Traveller on the discard pile to exchange, merely a BoM? And even if one takes the less extreme view that 'it' merely means "the Traveller" shouldn't exchanging Estates-Inheriting-Page fail because the Estate is merely an Estate with added powers: it didn't inherit 'Page' as its name, so does it really count as a Traveller? Actually maybe it does as the rules state "Adventures has Traveller cards. These cards have an arrow over the text box to remind players of their ability to upgrade into another card." so maybe the arrow over the text box is the definition of a Traveller card. On the other hand although the rules tell us "Page is exchanged for Treasure Hunter", they are completely silent on what Estate or BoM are exchanged for, and neither Estate nor BoM are Page at the moment of exchange.
EDIT: I've subsequently realised that much of the last paragraph overlooks the fact that Traveller cards have 'Traveller' as a type, so Estate-Inheriting-Page and BoM-Page are definitely Travellers. And as Donald points out in his reply, the card text clears up the final sentence. Memo to self: always remember to look at the card text before posting.
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The rules say "When a player discards a Traveller from play, he may exchange it for the card indicated"
That's the rulebook trying to explain things to people who actually want to understand what the cards do so they can play with them. It's not the rulebook offering up computer code for people who want to poke at it.
The card says, "When you discard this from play, you may exchange it for a Treasure Hunter." "This" is whatever card has those words on it. So much for that.