Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: AJD on April 26, 2015, 09:54:23 am
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The Adventures rule book doesn't really define what it means to "resolve" an Action card, but I guess the intended interpretation is something like "finish executing its on-play effects (but not its other effects)"? This is important for when you can call Coin of the Realm and Royal Carriage.
In this BGG thread (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1360336/royal-carriage-replay-called-action), for instance, Donald explains that you can't call Royal Carriage after calling another Reserve card; executing its on-call effects doesn't count as "resolving" it. And there are other Action cards that you can play to have effects other than when you play them: you call Royal Carriage on Duration cards right after you play the Duration card, not after you're done "resolving" its effect at the beginning of your next turn. I assume you call Royal Carriage on Scheme after you get the +1 Card and +1 Action, not after you "resolve" what Scheme does in the cleanup phase.
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Resolve simply means resolving on play effects. Donald X uses the example of throne room resolving after you play a card twice. Each time you play your chosen card with throne room, you resolve it.
Playing an action is very well defined, as well as what on-play effects are. Resolve is similarly well defined based on on-play effects.
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It's "well-defined" in the sense that the definition can be established unambiguously, but it's not "well defined" in the sense of the definition actually being stated clearly.
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It's "well-defined" in the sense that the definition can be established unambiguously, but it's not "well defined" in the sense of the definition actually being stated clearly.
I put this in the wiki article:
To resolve a card is to perform all the instructions written on it, in order, after playing it.
How's that?
But yeah, it is rather irksome that there isn't an actual official definition for the term.
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It's "well-defined" in the sense that the definition can be established unambiguously, but it's not "well defined" in the sense of the definition actually being stated clearly.
I put this in the wiki article:
To resolve a card is to perform all the instructions written on it, in order, after playing it.
How's that?
This seems the opposite of useful? With Scheme, when you finish "performing all the instructions written on it, in order, after playing it" is the Cleanup phase; with Wharf, it's the next turn.
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I think the real characterization of when you have "resolved" an Action is, an Action is resolved at the time after playing it at which you can either play more Actions or proceed to your Buy phase. That's not a definition, but a description.
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It's "well-defined" in the sense that the definition can be established unambiguously, but it's not "well defined" in the sense of the definition actually being stated clearly.
I put this in the wiki article:
To resolve a card is to perform all the instructions written on it, in order, after playing it.
How's that?
This seems the opposite of useful? With Scheme, when you finish "performing all the instructions written on it, in order, after playing it" is the Cleanup phase; with Wharf, it's the next turn.
Okay, how's this?
To resolve a card is to, after playing it, perform all instructions on it that do not set up an effect later in your turn (or in a future turn), and then be ready to play another card (if possible).
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I simplified it a bit.
Of course, the word "resolve" is used in the rule book for resolving effects other than on-play effects, so I don't think defining "resolve" in such a way that it only applies to the on-play effects of Actions is that accurate either. (E.g., "Players may use multiple Reaction cards in response to a single event. Reactions are resolved one at a time"; "if a player has an Amulet in play from the previous turn, and a Guide on his Tavern mat, he could resolve Amulet and then call Guide.")
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This seems the opposite of useful? With Scheme, when you finish "performing all the instructions written on it, in order, after playing it" is the Cleanup phase; with Wharf, it's the next turn.
Not so. Wharf sets you up now to do stuff later. It's done "setting you up to do stuff later" before next turn. Not generally a relevant distinction, but for example when you Procession Wharf, you still get all the stuff next turn, because you already finished setting up to do that stuff later.
When you've finished executing all the above-the-line stuff on a played Action, it's time to call Coin or Royal Carriage. If that stuff sets up events for the future, that's fine, it's done doing that.
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This seems the opposite of useful? With Scheme, when you finish "performing all the instructions written on it, in order, after playing it" is the Cleanup phase; with Wharf, it's the next turn.
Not so. Wharf sets you up now to do stuff later. It's done "setting you up to do stuff later" before next turn.
That's true, but you're not done "performing all the instructions written on it".
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This seems the opposite of useful? With Scheme, when you finish "performing all the instructions written on it, in order, after playing it" is the Cleanup phase; with Wharf, it's the next turn.
Not so. Wharf sets you up now to do stuff later. It's done "setting you up to do stuff later" before next turn.
That's true, but you're not done "performing all the instructions written on it".
You are done executing all of the instructions on it - you completely executed the instruction to set up that next turn you would do stuff.
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This seems the opposite of useful? With Scheme, when you finish "performing all the instructions written on it, in order, after playing it" is the Cleanup phase; with Wharf, it's the next turn.
Not so. Wharf sets you up now to do stuff later. It's done "setting you up to do stuff later" before next turn.
That's true, but you're not done "performing all the instructions written on it".
You are done executing all of the instructions on it - you completely executed the instruction to set up that next turn you would do stuff.
The instruction on the card isn't to set up that next turn you would do stuff; the instruction on the card is to do that stuff next turn.
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This seems the opposite of useful? With Scheme, when you finish "performing all the instructions written on it, in order, after playing it" is the Cleanup phase; with Wharf, it's the next turn.
Not so. Wharf sets you up now to do stuff later. It's done "setting you up to do stuff later" before next turn.
That's true, but you're not done "performing all the instructions written on it".
You are done executing all of the instructions on it - you completely executed the instruction to set up that next turn you would do stuff.
The instruction on the card isn't to set up that next turn you would do stuff; the instruction on the card is to do that stuff next turn.
I acknowledge that you replied to my post but do not wish to argue about anything remotely like this.
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This seems the opposite of useful? With Scheme, when you finish "performing all the instructions written on it, in order, after playing it" is the Cleanup phase; with Wharf, it's the next turn.
Not so. Wharf sets you up now to do stuff later. It's done "setting you up to do stuff later" before next turn.
That's true, but you're not done "performing all the instructions written on it".
You are done executing all of the instructions on it - you completely executed the instruction to set up that next turn you would do stuff.
The instruction on the card isn't to set up that next turn you would do stuff; the instruction on the card is to do that stuff next turn.
I acknowledge that you replied to my post but do not wish to argue about anything remotely like this.
Good call!
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I think the real characterization of when you have "resolved" an Action is, an Action is resolved at the time after playing it at which you can either play more Actions or proceed to your Buy phase. That's not a definition, but a description.
This is the best way to describe it, I think. We already know how to handle when we can play the next action, and this is the same.
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I think the real characterization of when you have "resolved" an Action is, an Action is resolved at the time after playing it at which you can either play more Actions or proceed to your Buy phase.
Which creates a circular definition with this from the base set rulebook:
the player must fully resolve an Action card before playing another one
It would seem more satisfying if it were officially specified that for these purposes an Action is considered resolved upon the completed execution of all of its (on-play) effects that take place in the Action phase of the turn in which it is played. Or something like that.
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I guess the most straightforward way to think of it is that it's "resolved" when you've done everything you can do, in terms of following the card's instructions, at that point in your turn. When you get the first +2 cards from Wharf, you've done everything you can do because it's not "your next turn" yet. When you do the top part of Scheme, you've done everything you can do because it's not Clean-up phase yet.
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I think the real characterization of when you have "resolved" an Action is, an Action is resolved at the time after playing it at which you can either play more Actions or proceed to your Buy phase. That's not a definition, but a description.
This sounds correct to me. Whenever you would otherwise be able to play another action card (if playing that card isn't part of the instructions of playing a card), or whenever you could choose to start your buy phase (or your buy phase would automatically start via having no actions left), this is when you can call Coin or Carriage. In other words, we may not be able to define "resolve", but we all know it when we see it.
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I think the real characterization of when you have "resolved" an Action is, an Action is resolved at the time after playing it at which you can either play more Actions or proceed to your Buy phase. That's not a definition, but a description.
This sounds correct to me. Whenever you would otherwise be able to play another action card (if playing that card isn't part of the instructions of playing a card), or whenever you could choose to start your buy phase (or your buy phase would automatically start via having no actions left), this is when you can call Coin or Carriage. In other words, we may not be able to define "resolve", but we all know it when we see it.
Hey, playing with RC the first time, I thought I'd have to wait until a Duration card's next turn before I could call RC on it, because, hey, it's still doing stuff then, so it hadn't resolved.
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I think the real characterization of when you have "resolved" an Action is, an Action is resolved at the time after playing it at which you can either play more Actions or proceed to your Buy phase. That's not a definition, but a description.
This sounds correct to me. Whenever you would otherwise be able to play another action card (if playing that card isn't part of the instructions of playing a card), or whenever you could choose to start your buy phase (or your buy phase would automatically start via having no actions left), this is when you can call Coin or Carriage. In other words, we may not be able to define "resolve", but we all know it when we see it.
I still see this being a circular definition: "How do I know when I can play more Actions or move on to my Buy phase?"
What's wrong with "An Action is resolved after you execute all its on-Play effects"? Next turn effects, Clean-up phase effects, on-Call effects, etc. are all instructions for future times and are resolved at those future times. But once those future instructions are queued-up, the on-Play effects are resolved.
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I think the real characterization of when you have "resolved" an Action is, an Action is resolved at the time after playing it at which you can either play more Actions or proceed to your Buy phase. That's not a definition, but a description.
This sounds correct to me. Whenever you would otherwise be able to play another action card (if playing that card isn't part of the instructions of playing a card), or whenever you could choose to start your buy phase (or your buy phase would automatically start via having no actions left), this is when you can call Coin or Carriage. In other words, we may not be able to define "resolve", but we all know it when we see it.
I still see this being a circular definition: "How do I know when I can play more Actions or move on to my Buy phase?"
What's wrong with "An Action is resolved after you execute all its on-Play effects"? Next turn effects, Clean-up phase effects, on-Call effects, etc. are all instructions for future times and are resolved at those future times. But once those future instructions are queued-up, the on-Play effects are resolved.
As AJD said, it's a description, not a definition. It's the best way to give people an intuitive sense of when they can call RC or CoTR. Obviously for a definition we need to turn something like what you've got.
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I think the real characterization of when you have "resolved" an Action is, an Action is resolved at the time after playing it at which you can either play more Actions or proceed to your Buy phase. That's not a definition, but a description.
This sounds correct to me. Whenever you would otherwise be able to play another action card (if playing that card isn't part of the instructions of playing a card), or whenever you could choose to start your buy phase (or your buy phase would automatically start via having no actions left), this is when you can call Coin or Carriage. In other words, we may not be able to define "resolve", but we all know it when we see it.
Hey, playing with RC the first time, I thought I'd have to wait until a Duration card's next turn before I could call RC on it, because, hey, it's still doing stuff then, so it hadn't resolved.
This is because JSH incorrectly explained it to us that way.
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I think the real characterization of when you have "resolved" an Action is, an Action is resolved at the time after playing it at which you can either play more Actions or proceed to your Buy phase. That's not a definition, but a description.
This sounds correct to me. Whenever you would otherwise be able to play another action card (if playing that card isn't part of the instructions of playing a card), or whenever you could choose to start your buy phase (or your buy phase would automatically start via having no actions left), this is when you can call Coin or Carriage. In other words, we may not be able to define "resolve", but we all know it when we see it.
I still see this being a circular definition: "How do I know when I can play more Actions or move on to my Buy phase?"
It is circular. It wasn't intended to be a definition. My point was that we've been fine with intuitively knowing when a card was resolved for the entire history of Dominion, without "resolved" ever being used on a card.
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I think the real characterization of when you have "resolved" an Action is, an Action is resolved at the time after playing it at which you can either play more Actions or proceed to your Buy phase. That's not a definition, but a description.
This sounds correct to me. Whenever you would otherwise be able to play another action card (if playing that card isn't part of the instructions of playing a card), or whenever you could choose to start your buy phase (or your buy phase would automatically start via having no actions left), this is when you can call Coin or Carriage. In other words, we may not be able to define "resolve", but we all know it when we see it.
Hey, playing with RC the first time, I thought I'd have to wait until a Duration card's next turn before I could call RC on it, because, hey, it's still doing stuff then, so it hadn't resolved.
This is because JSH incorrectly explained it to us that way.
Well part of that was because JSH also incorrectly told us that RC didn't stay out with a duration it played, so we were frantically trying to figure out a way that RC-Hireling wasn't broken.
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My point was that we've been fine with intuitively knowing when a card was resolved for the entire history of Dominion, without "resolved" ever being used on a card.
But now that it is used on cards, it's confusing that there is no clear, official specification of its meaning, especially considering that "resolve" is regularly used in the rulebooks to refer to non-on-play effects.
I think "Directly after playing" would be less confusing. Of course the concern there would be people thinking that means before completing the on-play instructions. But cards like Throne Room and Golem already require the understanding that to play an Action is to do all the stuff, and the rulebook is a bit more clear about this.
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A general description of "resolve" is not needed? It's clear that you can resolve other abilities (like Reaction abilities, or later Duration abilities) on Action cards too, not just on-play abilities. The point must be just to point out that for Coin of the Realm and Royal Carriage, Resolving an Action means resolving everything that happens when you play an Action card.
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My point was that we've been fine with intuitively knowing when a card was resolved for the entire history of Dominion, without "resolved" ever being used on a card.
But now that it is used on cards, it's confusing that there is no clear, official specification of its meaning, especially considering that "resolve" is regularly used in the rulebooks to refer to non-on-play effects.
I think "Directly after playing" would be less confusing. Of course the concern there would be people thinking that means before completing the on-play instructions. But cards like Throne Room and Golem already require the understanding that to play an Action is to do all the stuff, and the rulebook is a bit more clear about this.
I don't think TR and Golem really apply here. Thta wording would be confusing because "when play" effects typically kick in right when the card is played, before you resolve it. When an opponent plays Minion, you have to reveal Moat before she chooses whether to use Minion to discard or not. The words "Directly after" may push the intended meaning, but it's just as valid to interpret it as having the same timing as the "when play" on reactions like Moat.
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My point was that we've been fine with intuitively knowing when a card was resolved for the entire history of Dominion, without "resolved" ever being used on a card.
But now that it is used on cards, it's confusing that there is no clear, official specification of its meaning, especially considering that "resolve" is regularly used in the rulebooks to refer to non-on-play effects.
I think "Directly after playing" would be less confusing. Of course the concern there would be people thinking that means before completing the on-play instructions. But cards like Throne Room and Golem already require the understanding that to play an Action is to do all the stuff, and the rulebook is a bit more clear about this.
I don't think TR and Golem really apply here. Thta wording would be confusing because "when play" effects typically kick in right when the card is played, before you resolve it. When an opponent plays Minion, you have to reveal Moat before she chooses whether to use Minion to discard or not. The words "Directly after" may push the intended meaning, but it's just as valid to interpret it as having the same timing as the "when play" on reactions like Moat.
Well, you could also say it's just as valid to interpret Throne Room as having that same timing for when you can do the second play. The rulebook/FAQ could clearly point out the distinction between "when play" and "after playing"; it's true that the "Directly after playing" wording wouldn't make it automatically clear to everyone.
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What I mean is that TR and Golem don't use any of those words that say anything about timing, so they aren't applicable.
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What I mean is that TR and Golem don't use any of those words that say anything about timing, so they aren't applicable.
They don't use the word "after", but they do raise the question, at exactly what point do you consider the first Action to have been "played", so that you can play the second one? My point was that understanding the answer to that question should allow you to understand the meaning of "after playing".