Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: AJD on April 13, 2015, 11:08:29 am
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So when you name a card, you're not forced to name an actual card that's being used in the current game; this comes up, for example, when you play Mystic but and want to make sure you don't draw anything. You don't even have to name a card that could in principle be in your deck; you're free to say "the Knights randomizer" or "the Three of Clubs" or "Black Lotus" or whatever.
This has led to an assumption on these board that the instruction "name a card" is actually equivalent to "say some words", whether it's the name of a card or not—and if the words you say happen to be the name of a card, then you get the intended effect.
But with the introduction of Events, "name a card" can't just be "say some words", right?
If you play Contraband, and your opponent "names a card" by saying the word "Expedition", that doesn't actually block you from buying Expedition that turn, right? Because Expedition, the Event, isn't a card, and so your opponent hasn't actually succeeded in naming a card to block you from buying.
So I think, as a board, we need to revise our interpretation of what's covered by the instruction "name a card".
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So when you name a card, you're not forced to name an actual card that's being used in the current game; this comes up, for example, when you play Mystic but and want to make sure you don't draw anything. You don't even have to name a card that could in principle be in your deck; you're free to say "the Knights randomizer" or "the Three of Clubs" or "Black Lotus" or whatever.
This has led to an assumption on these board that the instruction "name a card" is actually equivalent to "say some words", whether it's the name of a card or not—and if the words you say happen to be the name of a card, then you get the intended effect.
But with the introduction of Events, "name a card" can't just be "say some words", right?
If you play Contraband, and your opponent "names a card" by saying the word "Expedition", that doesn't actually block you from buying Expedition that turn, right? Because Expedition, the Event, isn't a card, and so your opponent hasn't actually succeeded in naming a card to block you from buying.
So I think, as a board, we need to revise our interpretation of what's covered by the instruction "name a card".
I don't think anything really needs to change.
Worth $3
+1 Buy
When you play this, the player to your left names a card. You can’t buy that card this turn.
Clearly this can only prevent you from buying cards, and since when you buy Expedition you don't buy a card, but rather an event (Donald made this clear somewhere in the events preview thread, I'm pretty sure) Contraband cannot possibly prevent you from buying it. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you think is the problem. I don't think Contraband is supposed to prevent you from buying events.
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I think it's pretty clear that the thing you name must be a card, even if that card isn't part of the game. Since Expedition isn't a card, you can't name it.
Similarly, while you can name the Ace of Spades, or Black Lotus, or Caravanseray, or Chennai, or Power Plant #25, you cannot name the T Pentomino, or Tobacco Plantation, or Waterdeep Harbor, or Yahtzee, or N-34, none of which are cards.
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Contraband says "you cannot buy that card this turn". From reading the events preview, it seems to me that events are not cards, so there is no confusion.
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And in case of ambiguity, obviously something that is also a card should be valid. Fireball is a third level spell but also a card, Ragnaros is both a raid boss and a card, Nolan Ryan is a baseball player and a card, and so forth.
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And my post about ambiguity brings up a separate question: If I have bought Inheritance and set my Estate token on a copy of Ironmonger, and I play Wishing Well, if I name Ironmonger, will I draw an Estate if it's the top card? I suspect this has been answered elsewhere.
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I mean I think you could technically say that there is an "Expedition Card", and if it is named for Contraband, then it you can't buy that card this turn. ...but you already can't buy that card, so it doesn't change anything. The Expedition Card is just on the table to remind you that you can buy the Expedition Event this game. No one can ever buy that card. (Except for you, online or at your LGS when you pick up the Adventures expansion.)
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I think it's pretty clear that the thing you name must be a card, even if that card isn't part of the game. Since Expedition isn't a card, you can't name it.
Similarly, while you can name the Ace of Spades, or Black Lotus, or Caravanseray, or Chennai, or Power Plant #25, you cannot name the T Pentomino, or Tobacco Plantation, or Waterdeep Harbor, or Yahtzee, or N-34, none of which are cards.
I am going to make cards with those names just because.
Obviously what you say doesn't matter if it isn't a card in the (supply/your deck/wherever the card needs to be)
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And my post about ambiguity brings up a separate question: If I have bought Inheritance and set my Estate token on a copy of Ironmonger, and I play Wishing Well, if I name Ironmonger, will I draw an Estate if it's the top card? I suspect this has been answered elsewhere.
No, the Estates get the type and abilities they don't get the name.
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I think it's pretty clear that the thing you name must be a card, even if that card isn't part of the game. Since Expedition isn't a card, you can't name it.
Similarly, while you can name the Ace of Spades, or Black Lotus, or Caravanseray, or Chennai, or Power Plant #25, you cannot name the T Pentomino, or Tobacco Plantation, or Waterdeep Harbor, or Yahtzee, or N-34, none of which are cards.
I am going to make cards with those names just because.
Obviously what you say doesn't matter if it isn't a card in the (supply/your deck/wherever the card needs to be)
Assignment: Create a game that actually uses Pentomino cards.
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I mean I think you could technically say that there is an "Expedition Card", and if it is named for Contraband, then it you can't buy that card this turn. ...but you already can't buy that card, so it doesn't change anything. The Expedition Card is just on the table to remind you that you can buy the Expedition Event this game. No one can ever buy that card. (Except for you, online or at your LGS when you pick up the Adventures expansion.)
But Events are specifically called out as not cards, even though they are cards. They're both cards and not cards.
Excellent. If you're carrying Expedition you should be able to visit Marvin on the Heart of Gold and talk to him.
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Of course. In the context of the game there is not a card you can buy. There probably isn't anything in the rules that even refers to them as cards in the context of the game. I was just suggesting that is reasonable, outside the context of the game, to call that thing the "Expedition Card". Naming it effects the Dominion game state the same way naming "Ace of Spades" does.
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Sure. I just figure it'd be confusing if we end up in a situation where
1) Player A plays Contraband (legal move)
2) Player B names Expedition (legal move)
3) Player A buys Expedition (legal move).
I would much rather tell new players "You can't name Events for Contraband" than "You can name Events for Contraband, but it won't stop your opponent from buying them."
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But you can't name evens. You can only name cards that have the same name as the events.
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For the sake of IRL play, I think you should say "You can't name Events for Contraband".
For the sake of technical rules pedantry (one of our favorite things here), all the things that were just discussed.
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My new house rule (inspired by AdamH) is that when you're told to name a card, you have to name it Kevin.
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I get really upset on goko when i want to name Charizard and it forces me to name something on the board instead. Its like, thanks goko, now my wishing well is never going to draw charizard into my hand :/
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I get really upset on goko when i want to name Charizard and it forces me to name something on the board instead. Its like, thanks goko, now my wishing well is never going to draw charizard into my hand :/
Goko will, however, let you name the Ace of Spades.
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How do you name ace of spades on goko?
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How do you name ace of spades on goko?
When you go to the "all cards" button or whatever it is, called, it should be in there. It used to be, at least.
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I think it's pretty clear that the thing you name must be a card, even if that card isn't part of the game. Since Expedition isn't a card, you can't name it.
Similarly, while you can name the Ace of Spades, or Black Lotus, or Caravanseray, or Chennai, or Power Plant #25, you cannot name the T Pentomino, or Tobacco Plantation, or Waterdeep Harbor, or Yahtzee, or N-34, none of which are cards.
I disagree. If Black Lotus is a card, then so is Expedition. Not the expedition from Dominion; that's not a card. But in the thousands of games with cards in them that exist, I'd be shocked if none of them have a card called "expedition". And if not, I'll write "expedition" on an index are right now, and now such a card exists.
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I think it's pretty clear that the thing you name must be a card, even if that card isn't part of the game. Since Expedition isn't a card, you can't name it.
Similarly, while you can name the Ace of Spades, or Black Lotus, or Caravanseray, or Chennai, or Power Plant #25, you cannot name the T Pentomino, or Tobacco Plantation, or Waterdeep Harbor, or Yahtzee, or N-34, none of which are cards.
I disagree. If Black Lotus is a card, then so is Expedition. Not the expedition from Dominion; that's not a card. But in the thousands of games with cards in them that exist, I'd be shocked if none of them have a card called "expedition". And if not, I'll write "expedition" on an index are right now, and now such a card exists.
Right. But luckily naming it doesn't prevent you from buying the Dominion event named Expedition, since it's not a card.
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I think it's pretty clear that the thing you name must be a card, even if that card isn't part of the game. Since Expedition isn't a card, you can't name it.
Similarly, while you can name the Ace of Spades, or Black Lotus, or Caravanseray, or Chennai, or Power Plant #25, you cannot name the T Pentomino, or Tobacco Plantation, or Waterdeep Harbor, or Yahtzee, or N-34, none of which are cards.
I disagree. If Black Lotus is a card, then so is Expedition. Not the expedition from Dominion; that's not a card. But in the thousands of games with cards in them that exist, I'd be shocked if none of them have a card called "expedition". And if not, I'll write "expedition" on an index are right now, and now such a card exists.
If you name a card, you are naming the card itself. You are not "saying the name of a card." Otherwise it would tell you to "say the name of a card."
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I think it's pretty clear that the thing you name must be a card, even if that card isn't part of the game. Since Expedition isn't a card, you can't name it.
Similarly, while you can name the Ace of Spades, or Black Lotus, or Caravanseray, or Chennai, or Power Plant #25, you cannot name the T Pentomino, or Tobacco Plantation, or Waterdeep Harbor, or Yahtzee, or N-34, none of which are cards.
I disagree. If Black Lotus is a card, then so is Expedition. Not the expedition from Dominion; that's not a card. But in the thousands of games with cards in them that exist, I'd be shocked if none of them have a card called "expedition". And if not, I'll write "expedition" on an index are right now, and now such a card exists.
If you name a card, you are naming the card itself. You are not "saying the name of a card." Otherwise it would tell you to "say the name of a card."
I don't see how these are different... you are allowed to name "Ace of Spades", which is selecting Ace of Spades as the forbidden card. In the same way, you can select any card in existence, which means that you can select "Expedition" from the whatever game happens to have a card with that name, or the game you created in your head on the spot if no such published game exists currently.
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The points is that naming that card from some other game doesn't affect your ability to do anything.
If my opponent names the Develop card from RFTG, that doesn't stop me from buying the Dominion card develop either.
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The points is that naming that card from some other game doesn't affect your ability to do anything.
If my opponent names the Develop card from RFTG, that doesn't stop me from buying the Dominion card develop either.
True.
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If your opponent wants develop, and for some reason you also want him to have develop, and he plays contraband, and you then name develop, thinking 'this is of course in reference to develop from another board game entirely,' then you may very well officially be a real life troller. Same goes for expedition except for in that case it could feasibly matter, but only if the contraband player doesn't understand the rules.
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The Naming of Cards is a difficult matter,
It isn't just one of your casual games;
You may think at first I'm as mad as a hatter
When I tell you, a card must have THREE DIFFERENT NAMES.
First of all, there's the name that the players use daily,
Such as Mystic, Cartographer, Bishop or Scout,
Such as Village or Pirate Ship, Pawn or Sir Bailey--
All of them sensible names to call out.
But I tell you, a card needs a name that's particular,
A name that's peculiar and jokey and weird,
Else how can he keep up his text perpendicular,
And spread out his scrollwork, and cherish his beard?
Of names of this kind, I can give you a quorum,
Such as Wandering Winder or Hot Air Balloon,
Such as Dukey, Dame Trasher, or things from Temporum--
Names that f.DS users will recognize soon.
But above and beyond there's still one name left over,
And that is the name that you never will guess;
The name that none but Donald X can discover--
But THE CARD ITSELF KNOWS, and will never confess.
When you notice a Sage in profound meditation,
The reason, I tell you, is always the same:
His mind is engaged in a rapt contemplation
Of the thought, of the thought, of the thought of his name:
His ineffable effable
Effanineffable
Deep and inscrutable singular Name.
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The points is that naming that card from some other game doesn't affect your ability to do anything.
If my opponent names the Develop card from RFTG, that doesn't stop me from buying the Dominion card develop either.
True.
I don't think this is true! I can't name the Develop on the bottom of the supply pile and still allow my opponent to buy the Develop from the top of the supply pile—cards with the same name are treated as equivalent for the purpose of "naming a card".
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The points is that naming that card from some other game doesn't affect your ability to do anything.
If my opponent names the Develop card from RFTG, that doesn't stop me from buying the Dominion card develop either.
True.
I don't think this is true! I can't name the Develop on the bottom of the supply pile and still allow my opponent to buy the Develop from the top of the supply pile—cards with the same name are treated as equivalent for the purpose of "naming a card".
Hmm, I suppose you're right. Which kind of means that you really are just stating the name of a card, rather than selecting a specific card by naming it. This means that in a deck that has lots of Develops from Dominion AND lots of Develops from Race for the Galaxy, Wishing Well is even better!
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The points is that naming that card from some other game doesn't affect your ability to do anything.
If my opponent names the Develop card from RFTG, that doesn't stop me from buying the Dominion card develop either.
True.
I don't think this is true! I can't name the Develop on the bottom of the supply pile and still allow my opponent to buy the Develop from the top of the supply pile—cards with the same name are treated as equivalent for the purpose of "naming a card".
Hmm, I suppose you're right. Which kind of means that you really are just stating the name of a card, rather than selecting a specific card by naming it. This means that in a deck that has lots of Develops from Dominion AND lots of Develops from Race for the Galaxy, Wishing Well is even better!
But those Develops are a card type, not a card name.
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The points is that naming that card from some other game doesn't affect your ability to do anything.
If my opponent names the Develop card from RFTG, that doesn't stop me from buying the Dominion card develop either.
True.
I don't think this is true! I can't name the Develop on the bottom of the supply pile and still allow my opponent to buy the Develop from the top of the supply pile—cards with the same name are treated as equivalent for the purpose of "naming a card".
Hmm, I suppose you're right. Which kind of means that you really are just stating the name of a card, rather than selecting a specific card by naming it. This means that in a deck that has lots of Develops from Dominion AND lots of Develops from Race for the Galaxy, Wishing Well is even better!
But those Develops are a card type, not a card name.
I had assumed he was talking about the role selection cards. The card type is Development, not Develop.
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The points is that naming that card from some other game doesn't affect your ability to do anything.
If my opponent names the Develop card from RFTG, that doesn't stop me from buying the Dominion card develop either.
True.
I don't think this is true! I can't name the Develop on the bottom of the supply pile and still allow my opponent to buy the Develop from the top of the supply pile—cards with the same name are treated as equivalent for the purpose of "naming a card".
Hmm, I suppose you're right. Which kind of means that you really are just stating the name of a card, rather than selecting a specific card by naming it. This means that in a deck that has lots of Develops from Dominion AND lots of Develops from Race for the Galaxy, Wishing Well is even better!
But those Develops are a card type, not a card name.
I had assumed he was talking about the role selection cards. The card type is Development, not Develop.
I assumed so too, but we can always get into if the role cards actually have "names" or not.
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To avoid confusion in this regard, just declare a null Dominion card that has no physical representation and may not be used in any game of Dominion. Define it to have all names that are not names of other Dominion cards. (It will, of course, lose names when new cards are published.) Then require that a player name an actual Dominion card, including the null card, whenever any Dominion card instructs him or her to name a card. Problem solved.
And hey, we get a new Dominion card for free that way.
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To avoid confusion in this regard, just declare a null Dominion card that has no physical representation and may not be used in any game of Dominion. Define it to have all names that are not names of other Dominion cards. (It will, of course, lose names when new cards are published.) Then require that a player name an actual Dominion card, including the null card, whenever any Dominion card instructs him or her to name a card. Problem solved.
And hey, we get a new Dominion card for free that way.
Or you could just ask the player to your right to name a card which you cannot buy this turn. My pedant-o-meter is off the charts. It doesn't say that you aren't supposed to/can't say something like..
"The second card from the top in the pile of cards in the living room of Fred's house containing cards with the names of Develop, coming from the game Dominion by Rio Grande Games."
..If he simply says this we can eliminate all this confusion.
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You mean, like, the Ace of Spades?
I think I am going to draw the Ace of Spades on one of my blanks now.
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There already is a card that's in Dominion that can't be in your deck. The Trash card.
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There already is a card that's in Dominion that can't be in your deck. The Trash card.
If the trash card counts as a card, then so do events. They're both things that are printed on cards, but not considered "cards" as far as rules go.
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The Knights randomizer card won't be available ever.
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But do you really "buy" events or do you spend a buy to use its action? I don't think you keep the card, so therefore you did not purchase it.
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But do you really "buy" events or do you spend a buy to use its action? I don't think you keep the card, so therefore you did not purchase it.
You do buy events. At least, one would presume that buying an event before Messenger would make Messenger not your first buy in a turn. It's just that buying an event will result in following its instructions, where buying a card has always resulted in gaining the card (usually).
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Unless of course that card is band of misfits, in which case tis an ethereal mystery what you just gained.
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But do you really "buy" events or do you spend a buy to use its action? I don't think you keep the card, so therefore you did not purchase it.
Yes, it's something you buy. It fully fits the Dominion definition of "buy". It's just not something you gain.
An Event is something you can buy in your Buy phase that isn't a card. You pay your $, you use up a Buy, and something happens.
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Now this is what I call in-depth Dominion analysis.
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But do you really "buy" events or do you spend a buy to use its action? I don't think you keep the card, so therefore you did not purchase it.
Yes, it's something you buy. It fully fits the Dominion definition of "buy". It's just not something you gain.
An Event is something you can buy in your Buy phase that isn't a card. You pay your $, you use up a Buy, and something happens.
To be honest it was almost an actual question. Donald's preview page was tl;dr at the time.
But you don't buy the card.. you buy the Event.
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But do you really "buy" events or do you spend a buy to use its action? I don't think you keep the card, so therefore you did not purchase it.
Yes, it's something you buy. It fully fits the Dominion definition of "buy". It's just not something you gain.
An Event is something you can buy in your Buy phase that isn't a card. You pay your $, you use up a Buy, and something happens.
To be honest it was almost an actual question. Donald's preview page was tl;dr at the time.
But you don't buy the card.. you buy the Event.
Yes. But you still buy it. :P