Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => Dominion: Adventures Previews => Topic started by: Emeric on April 07, 2015, 08:08:05 am
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I put "Question" in my topic like that reader won't think I inform that the rules are on the RGG site.
I just want to know if someone know the day we can expect to find the rules book on the RGG site ?
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I would imagine that will line up with the release of the game. Sometime in the next couple weeks.
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I put "Question" in my topic like that reader won't think I inform that the rules are on the RGG site.
I just want to know if someone know the day we can expect to find the rules book on the RGG site ?
It will be the day Jay thinks of it and decides it's not too early. I don't have data on previous expansions to say how close to the release date that typically is.
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Today seems like a good day. ;D
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When we're talking about the rulebook, I assume this includes the thing that has explanations of all the cards in it?
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When we're talking about the rulebook, I assume this includes the thing that has explanations of all the cards in it?
If its like the previous rule books then yes. All the cards will be in it.
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When we're talking about the rulebook, I assume this includes the thing that has explanations of all the cards in it?
If its like the previous rule books then yes. All the cards will be in it.
And according to the author of this post, the rulebook will be posted on April 18:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/18908466#18908466 (https://boardgamegeek.com/article/18908466#18908466)
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When we're talking about the rulebook, I assume this includes the thing that has explanations of all the cards in it?
If its like the previous rule books then yes. All the cards will be in it.
And according to the author of this post, the rulebook will be posted on April 18:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/18908466#18908466 (https://boardgamegeek.com/article/18908466#18908466)
Bah, what does he know?
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Well, I'm impatient. I already checked RGG because I forgot they are in Mountain time. (Not that they are going to rush to put it up tonight)
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Well, I'm impatient. I already checked RGG because I forgot they are in Mountain time. (Not that they are going to rush to put it up tonight)
I doubt Jay will post it at the crack of midnight. If I'm wrong, feel free to start updating the wiki without me. I'm going to bed.
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The rules are up! I guess Pacific time has its perks occasionally.
EDIT: The wiki (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Adventures) now has most of the information and low res images from the rules if you're interested in browsing the cards.
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So I was both right and wrong. Neato.
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Woo!
Wasn't there something like Raze in the Seaside contest? Royal Carriage is cool, I've always wanted a $5 Throne variant. Wine Merchant is the cool idea someone (maybe eHalcyon?) suggested of having a Reserve that uses the reserve mechanic as a drawback, but I think it's just going to be really weak. Terminal money just isn't that great and the drawback seems too harsh for it. Port sounds pretty nice. Distant Lands is cool.
Okay, so Champion is nuts. I was reading all the other ones and they sounded pretty weak, but I guess it's worth it for Champion. I'm not sure how I feel about it giving you +1 Action on every action you play. It means in a lot (most? all?) games, you just have unlimited actions and that's that. At first I thought it had an interaction with Reserves that made that not always be the case, but I don't think that does it either, right? It's just unlimited actions after a certain point, and it combos with Diadem? Is Champion the one AdamH didn't like? I can see why, it kind of just negates two big mechanics of Dominion (attacks and limited actions).
Hey Disciple is like the opposite of Procession. Teacher is cool but it doesn't sound like it's nearly as bonkers as Champion. You have to play it from your hand first and it's terminal, and it's already a ton of work to get one.
Okay events: Ooh is there a cool thing you can do with Bonfire and Alms? Burn all your treasures and then go asking people for more. Ferry should enable all sorts of cool shenanigans for puzzles with Border Village and Haggler. Hey Tracking is called Scouting Party. That is literally the best thing it could have been named. And Travelling Fair, I think I suggested something very similar to that in the fan events thread, so that's cool!
For now that's all my comments that no one asked for.
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Rules are here for anyone who needs the link: http://riograndegames.com/Game/1285-Dominion-Adventures
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so omg champion is good
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Errata:
This game is perfect
:D
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Champion is crazy. But okay, I'm calling it now. 8)
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Why am I hiring Gandalf to catch rats? Doesn't he have more important stuff to do?
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I remember seeing Wine Merchant in playtesting and thinking that it was super weak. I'm pretty sure it's been unchanged and I'm wondering if I'm missing something about how the card is supposed to be played...
EDIT: Raze resembles a certain $2 card in playtesting, thank goodness that got changed.
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Wine Merchant offers flexibility in springing for something high cost soon (say a King's Court, Prince, or Forge) and then buying some low cost engine part to go with it on your next turn.
I agree it may seem a bit pricey on some boards that have better 5's and other sources of buy around -- but I'll bet it'll see more frequent use and be more important than, say, Explorer. And.. say it with me now: They can't all be the best $5 ever.
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Can Teacher move an already placed token? I can't see it coming up much, since it's very slow (late in game, must go back and forth to Tavern mat), but theoretically at least.. If Lost Arts can move the token to a new pile, I guess Teacher also could?
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Wine Merchant offers flexibility in springing for something high cost soon (say a King's Court, Prince, or Forge) and then buying some low cost engine part to go with it on your next turn.
This is super obvious, my point was that I don't see a context in which Wine Merchant is remotely strong.
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Well in considering that obvious thing, I can imagine plenty of kingdoms that would benefit from a Wine Merchant. It's a cool card and fits an interesting niche, kind of like a Death Cart or a Baron.
It's not the merchant itself that's strong, it's that early Forge or Platinum that could be strong. And the other buying flexibilities it provides. Other times it's just a woodcutter with a sort of Journey token flavor.
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Some initial thoughts:
Port: jump-start an engine early after a couple terminal buys
Raze: sneaky good 2-coster; a little early-game trashing and some mid-game hand-stacking and deck-cycling
Bridge Troll: clever card, need to consider further
Royal Carriage: weak 5er
Wine Merchant: love it, like a super-powered borrow that you can pay back whenever, or not at all
Artificer: a beast in the right deck (like Crossroads/alt VP, or Cursed/Ruined)
Miser: get a +1 Action token or Inheritance token on it and you are off to the races with your personal, controllable Pirate Ship
Distant Lands: Rare to choose this over Duchy during the stage in the game when you are spending 5 for a Victory card, no?
Champion and Teacher: both worth getting to quickly with deck cyclers
Events
Ferry: could make for some powerful combos with cards that affect things that cost 4 or less, like Inheritance, Workshop, Armory, Prince, etc. Play Armory and top-deck a Grand Market? Don't mind if I do!
Pathfinding: cost 8? Wow I wouldn't have guessed that is so strong, but I must be wrong
Travelling Fair: thought this would cost 1, but with the top-decking 2 seems right
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Some initial thoughts:
Port: jump-start an engine early after a couple terminal buys
Raze: sneaky good 2-coster; a little early-game trashing and some mid-game hand-stacking and deck-cycling
Bridge Troll: clever card, need to consider further
Royal Carriage: weak 5er
Wine Merchant: love it, like a super-powered borrow that you can pay back whenever, or not at all
Artificer: a beast in the right deck (like Crossroads/alt VP, or Cursed/Ruined)
Miser: get a +1 Action token or Inheritance token on it and you are off to the races with your personal, controllable Pirate Ship
Distant Lands: Rare to choose this over Duchy during the stage in the game when you are spending 5 for a Victory card, no?
Champion and Teacher: both worth getting to quickly with deck cyclers
Events
Ferry: could make for some powerful combos with cards that affect things that cost 4 or less, like Inheritance, Workshop, Armory, Prince, etc. Play Armory and top-deck a Grand Market? Don't mind if I do!
Pathfinding: cost 8? Wow I wouldn't have guessed that is so strong, but I must be wrong
Travelling Fair: thought this would cost 1, but with the top-decking 2 seems right
Personally, I think pathfinding could have cost more.
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Warrior is so perfect in the Champion chain. To get promoted all the way to champion, she will have to survive as a Treasure Hunter and a Warrior without getting offed!
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Some initial thoughts:
Royal Carriage: weak 5er
Artificer: a beast in the right deck (like Crossroads/alt VP, or Cursed/Ruined)
Miser: get a +1 Action token or Inheritance token on it and you are off to the races with your personal, controllable Pirate Ship
Royal Carriage doesn't really seem weak. I mean, yeah 4$-5$ in comparison (vs Throne Room) is huge step, but then you can always wait to pair it with the action you want it, which probably makes RC more viable in several situations. On the other hand, you often may just want to throne another 5$ and might just buy that other 5$ right away. I can already see the pile running if it's the only village in a kingdom, though, so I guess it's good enough.
Artificer: Vault/Secret Chamber, but as a gainer instead of +Coins. Probably best in a trim Scrying Pool engine, but seems good in any kind of engine that can draw cards in resonable amounts. Putting the card on top of the deck is the icing on the cake. Overall, I guess you want to get this card later then most other gainers, most of the time?
Miser: Feels a bit like Island when you sort of get rid of your VP-cards without losing the VP. I guess that would have been lovely with +Buy but I really like the concept of copper trashing early and then benefit later.
Pathfinding seems okay for 8$. I guess it's better than Prince.
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Distant Lands: Rare to NOT choose this over Duchy during the stage in the game when you are spending 5 for a Victory card, no?
FYP. Distant Lands is the strongest 5 in the set.
The timing of "the stage where you want a 5-cost VP card" is strongly dependent on how bad the card is for your deck. Duchies are terrible; Distant Lands, far less so.
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For those discussing Wine Merchant, it's not great, but the trick is playing more than one Wine Merchant so that you only pay the $2 once for all of them.
edit: in addition to the flexibility Gherald is mentioning, and also you don't have to pay the penalty the last time you use it.
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Distant Lands: Rare to NOT choose this over Duchy during the stage in the game when you are spending 5 for a Victory card, no?
FYP. Distant Lands is the strongest 5 in the set.
The timing of "the stage where you want a 5-cost VP card" is strongly dependent on how bad the card is for your deck. Duchies are terrible; Distant Lands, far less so.
Strongest 5? I need more convincing. I guess I'm underestimating the fact that if we are several turns from game end, or I have strong cycling, I can get the card out of my deck.
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Warrior's attack is pretty wild. If you have all 5 Warriors and play them all in a turn, you're looking through 15 cards of your opponent's deck and trashing all the $3s and $4s, even if you have no other travellers. Playing some Pages before a single Warrior is a possibility also. Even though it'll be slow to set something like this up, it's damaging enough that I imagine it'll be worth contesting the Page chain more often than not, especially since Champion shuts down the attack if you get that far. Only hitting $3s and $4s is a significant limitation, but decks usually have something important in that price range, so that losing all of them would be a big problem.
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I think we had about as much chances to guess Champion as we had of guessing Inheritance. Wow.
It's kinda funny that most of the other cards in the chain antisynergize with champion. Treasure Hunter and Hero clog your deck, and Warrior can trash Treasure Hunters and Warriors before they upgrade. Warrior is an interesting attack: while the first one is not particularly dangerous, but it can quickly become very oppressive. Luckily (?) there's only five of them, so it will probably never reach that level.
How often will you want to trash a good card with Raze? It looks like the best targets are Estates, and well you can always trash coppers. Trashing anything else seems a bit of a waste.
Caravan guard is a delayed peddler, or a straight peddler when you are attacked, right? Ok, I guess. Weird.
Distant Lands is going to shake up greening strategies. If you piledrive them, you only need to get one province and one duchy to beat someone that is trying to piledrive Provinces, and the other player is going to stall way earlier than that.
Miser is cool. Slow though. I wonder if the extra reliability and thinning is going to make it better than Pirate Ship. Probably.
Wine Merchant: you want to call more than one at once, and you don't even need to play them on the same turn. Nice for all those times where you wished that Fool's Gold was an Action. It does come with a buy, engines like that.
Treasure Trove: BM is probably going to like this, especially with sifting.
Alms is cute. I like it.
I wish Bonfire granted a buy... It's going to be tricky to use it to get rid of your coppers after the first couple of turns.
Ferry: yoohoo BoM can copy more expensive cards! Now back to discussing how "from this pile" interacts with BoM...
Do you think Ranger+Pilgrimage is going to be a thing? Draw 5 cards, pay 4.... yeah probably not.
Funny that Lost Arts and Training cost the same. I would have guessed Lost Arts should cost more, somehow. Hmm...
Oh, any idea how the -1$ token works?
PPE 3
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Miser lets you Pirate Ship yourself. I like it.
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The -$1 token works just the like the card token. Then next time you get $1, you get rid of the token instead.
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Treasure Trove is so close to being strictly better than Cache. Oh well.
Edit: Oh, "when you play this." Well, that's different.
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Royal Carriage can't Royal Carriage itself. Ugh. My opinion of it has just dropped considerably.
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Royal Carriage can't Royal Carriage itself. Ugh. My opinion of it has just dropped considerably.
You can, however, call multiple Royal Carriages on a single action. It works similarly but also very differently from Throne Room. The cool thing about it is it doesn't run in to the "I drew Throne Room with 4 treasures" hand problem.
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How often will you want to trash a good card with Raze? It looks like the best targets are Estates, and well you can always trash coppers. Trashing anything else seems a bit of a waste.
My initial guess is that Raze is going to be a bit like Apprentice; if you only ever use it to trash Estates and Coppers, you're doing it wrong.
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Royal Carriage can't Royal Carriage itself. Ugh. My opinion of it has just dropped considerably.
You can, however, call multiple Royal Carriages on a single action. It works similarly but also very differently from Throne Room. The cool thing about it is it doesn't run in to the "I drew Throne Room with 4 treasures" hand problem.
Mmmmm... TR and KC have an intrinsic villaginess that becomes apparent when you use them on themselves. But Royal Carriage can copy any given card an "unlimited" number of times. So I guess TR and KC are better when you would like to play many different cards each turn, and RC is better when you just want to play one type of card as many times as you can.
The comparison is not perfect because they have different costs, but ok.
How often will you want to trash a good card with Raze? It looks like the best targets are Estates, and well you can always trash coppers. Trashing anything else seems a bit of a waste.
My initial guess is that Raze is going to be a bit like Apprentice; if you only ever use it to trash Estates and Coppers, you're doing it wrong.
Well, Raze only costs 2$ and can trash itself. I am not sure that Razing a Gold is a good idea, edge cases aside.
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Pilgrimage seems amazing. Gain 3 cards you have in play for the cost of $4. Okay, and the Journey token needs to be facing the proper way, but still, damn, that's impressive. Anyway, will give more thoughts later. Oh, you can cain a KC off of Pilgrimage and two other cards.
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My initial guess is that Raze is going to be a bit like Apprentice; if you only ever use it to trash Estates and Coppers, you're doing it wrong.
I could be wrong, but I think that's completely false. It's pretty rare that I want to Raze an expensive card.
Full disclosure: Raze is the only card in the set that I think is a waste of a slot.
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How often will you want to trash a good card with Raze? It looks like the best targets are Estates, and well you can always trash coppers. Trashing anything else seems a bit of a waste.
My initial guess is that Raze is going to be a bit like Apprentice; if you only ever use it to trash Estates and Coppers, you're doing it wrong.
Well, Raze only costs 2$ and can trash itself. I am not sure that Razing a Gold is a good idea, edge cases aside.
The edge case could be Tunnel, I guess?!
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How often will you want to trash a good card with Raze? It looks like the best targets are Estates, and well you can always trash coppers. Trashing anything else seems a bit of a waste.
My initial guess is that Raze is going to be a bit like Apprentice; if you only ever use it to trash Estates and Coppers, you're doing it wrong.
Well, Raze only costs 2$ and can trash itself. I am not sure that Razing a Gold is a good idea, edge cases aside.
The edge case could be Tunnel, I guess?!
Possibly Market Square.
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Not really, your handsize decreases.
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Why am I hiring Gandalf to catch rats? Doesn't he have more important stuff to do?
So that thing in my hand is a rat? I thought it was a staff.
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Why am I hiring Gandalf to catch rats? Doesn't he have more important stuff to do?
So that thing in my hand is a rat? I thought it was a staff.
Turns out you were Radagast all along.
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Regarding Raze: I think it might be worth it just for the trashing sometimes. (Seriously, compare this to Bomb. This is ridiculously strong :P)
Too bad there's no cost increasing token, but at least Ferry allows for some BoM-combos.
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I really like the events. I can't wait to train my rats!
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Some thoughts. Holy Engine Batman! This seems to be the most enginey expansion ever, even more so than DA.
Anyway, let's start with Events. I need to go to sleep soon, so I might just cover those for now.
Alms: This is great. If I have a treasureless deck, I gain a free card. I can open 5/4 or 4/4, and against junking attacks, this guarantees I get a card every turn. This seems solid.
Ball: Gaining two 4 costs can be good. Yah, it costs $5 and has a small drawback. But opening Double Sea Hag or getting two Ironmongers or Caravans can be worth it. This doesn't seem super powerful, but also a solid event. Alms does seem better though.
Bonfire: Hmm, so the cards have to be in play. Well, this is a nice way to get rid of extra coppers later in the game. This card seems reasonable for the cost and probably an event that will see a decent amount of play, especially on boards with weak to no trashing.
Borrow: I covered this already, but I think it is pretty good. Sometimes, you just need to hit $5 or even open $5 for that matter and this helps with that. It also makes it easier to get KC or Goons or some other high cost card you may need. So, yah, pretty solid and the drawback seems reasonable.
Expedition: More often than not, buying this over silver seems the right call I think. Solid.
Ferry: Holy *&*(&! This only costs $3. What? So, now Wharves can cost $3. Goons $4. Grand Markets for $4. Oh man, this card seems nuts for the cost of $3. And, you can move the token, so it lets you open a $5 cost if for some reason you get a $3/$4 split. I do like how Dominion is getting more and more ways to open with a $5 cost.
Inheritance: Seems amazing. I'm not sure how powerful it is, but being able to buy Ironmonger estates seems pretty damn awesome to me.
Lost Arts: Engines here I come!
Mission: I love this card. Probably one of the events that is more situational, but on the boards that it is useful, this can really, really shine.
Pathfinding: Well, we always knew drawing cards was strong. I guess $8 is a reasonable cost to turn all my villages into Lost Cities, my Smithies into super Smithies. And, geese Hunting Grounds can now draw 5 cards. Yah, this seems solid.
Pilgrimage: Oh man, this card is beautiful. $4 seems an amazing cost. HoP loves this card. Oh, and I think I plan on going on a Mission soon to go on a Pilgrimage. Anyway, I have not played with this card, and I'm in love.
Plan: !!!! Yes! Wow! This is really good trashing. This card might allow you to skip buying a trasher altogether. Hell, Village can become a trasher. I don't know. As far as trashers goes, I have a feeling this is up there with the likes of Steward. This is actually probably better. Not Chapel strong, but really damn strong. Man, I can actually live the dream and open Village, or better yet, Port.
Quest: Solid. Oh, and whoever mentioned Tunnel in an earlier thread, kudos.
Raid: Definitely one of the weaker events except feodum loves this card, a LOT. I guess in BM this card is pretty good though, but really how often are we going to see BM these days?
Save: So, a Haven I can use anytime. Seems cool. This helps with Terminal Collision, that's for sure. And $1 is pretty cheap most of the time. Another solid event.
Scouting Party: This card has its uses. It can also be tactically used to skip bad draws and whatnot.
Seaway: What??? So, for $5, I get a $4 cost and all copies of that $4 cost have +Buy. Wow! Yah, that's all I have to say.
Trade: With weak trashing this can be good. Although, I'm pretty sure this is one of the weaker events. I mean for crying out loud we have Plan.
Training: Seems weaker than Lost Arts. But, I guess $6 is a fair price. I'm pretty sure this will get bought in almost every game it shows up in, especially on enginey boards.
Travelling Fair: Seems handy and the cost also seems fair. This can also be used to set up some interesting turns if the economy is there. Solid.
Okay, I will get to the Kingdom cards later. But, all I have to say is this set is amazing, amazing, amazing. I think Donald X. has truly outdone himself here.
PPE:5
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Raze is the bomb.
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How often will you want to trash a good card with Raze? It looks like the best targets are Estates, and well you can always trash coppers. Trashing anything else seems a bit of a waste.
My initial guess is that Raze is going to be a bit like Apprentice; if you only ever use it to trash Estates and Coppers, you're doing it wrong.
I don't think you really want this. I think this mechanic has a big diminishing returns factor, like having a second or a third card to choose from is pretty signficant while the 6th or 8th card doesn't matter a whole lot unless (edge case inc) you seriously need to find one single card (of which you only have one copy) in your deck right now.
That said, I agree trashing Estates is pretty nice with it and you'd opportunistically trash Coppers, but it's probably best when you can trash mid-cost cards with decreasing value, like that other trasher you've bought early (Moneylender? Doctor?) or that early Silver you've bought to start building up your engine you'd rather thin now (like in a Grand Market stack deck without extra draw).
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Royal Carriage is so purple and it's awesome.
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Quick question that isn't answered in the FAQ: can I buy a Ball if I've already taken my -$1 token and still gain two cards?
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I think it's pretty obvious from the card text that you can: There is no "If you do".
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Holy crap dat Inheritance FAQ
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Travelling Fair is neat; it's the +2 Buys Event everyone wanted but with some twists. The Royal Seal effect makes a lot more sense on an Event and goes well with the extra Buys so you can set up multiple cards for the next turn. It also makes it less cost-effective to buy more than once in a turn while still being possible.
Although I've gotta say, costing $2 makes it way harder to work into a Turn 1 multiplayer empty Supply strategy. If the first player goes Baker coin --> Borrow --> Stonemason --> Lost City x2, the other players can all open $9, but they can't actually pick up double $4 cards from there. Although I'm sure a Travelling Fair variant that cheap would've been worse for the game overall.
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Observatory
Cost: 2
Action
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. Look at cards from the top of the deck equal to the trashed card's cost in coins. Put one of these cards into your hand, discard any amount, and put the rest back on top of the deck in any order.
Cool to see this idea work. :)
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In the pre-preview hints, Donald said that there are two 12-card piles, but I only see one Victory card in the set (Distant Lands). Am I missing another Victory card somewhere?
EDIT: I see on the other thread that Port has 12 cards. Interesting.
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Port : Talisman :: Border Village : Haggler
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Wine Merchant offers flexibility in springing for something high cost soon (say a King's Court, Prince, or Forge) and then buying some low cost engine part to go with it on your next turn.
This is super obvious, my point was that I don't see a context in which Wine Merchant is remotely strong.
Good thing it leaves your deck after you play it, then…. ;)
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Can Teacher move an already placed token?
Yes.
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Observatory
Cost: 2
Action
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. Look at cards from the top of the deck equal to the trashed card's cost in coins. Put one of these cards into your hand, discard any amount, and put the rest back on top of the deck in any order.
Cool to see this idea work. :)
Congrats!
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Port : Talisman :: Border Village : Haggler
So what you're saying is that a game with Quarry, Talisman, Port, Border Village, and Haggler would 3-pile quickly?
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Plan: !!!! Yes! Wow! This is really good trashing. This card might allow you to skip buying a trasher altogether. Hell, Village can become a trasher. I don't know. As far as trashers goes, I have a feeling this is up there with the likes of Steward. This is actually probably better. Not Chapel strong, but really damn strong. Man, I can actually live the dream and open Village, or better yet, Port.
You realize Plan lets you trash a card when you buy from the pile with the token, not when you play a card from that pile, right?
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Just finished reading all the cards/events. Awesome stuff. I really like the events.
I do think Pathfinder is justified to be more expensive than Lost Arts. It's true that +1 Action tokens add so much reliability to a deck. It lines up a village with all the copies of a card that you really want to play with a village. But +1 Card lines up a Lab with every copy of a card. That's really, really good. Being able to increase your handsize lets you get away with more stop cards in your deck, in a way that a deck full of extra villages cannot do on it's own.
About the travelers, don't underestimate the Peasant line. Yes, upgrading Peasant and Soldier is a little rocky due to them being terminal, but there is strong synergy between Teacher and Disciple. Get one Teacher, and keep Disciples around to play cards with tokens on them, while getting more of those cards. It's a shame Teacher is so slow at adding tokens. You can't play it again the same turn it is called, and it can't be called the turn it is put on the Tavern mat. You can only add/move a token to a pile every 2 turns with the same Teacher. Still, while Champion makes your whole deck non-terminal, Disciple helps your deck have more Action cards with Teacher making those cards better.
Okay, the Page line seems a bit unfair because of Warrior. If Player A trashes Player B's Treasure Hunter/Warrior, Player A gets to Champion a lot faster than Player B. Champion itself is quite absurd. Perhaps the treasure gaining of the earlier cards in the line slow down the desired increase in action density enough to make Champion a bit more fair.
Oh and Port, just...wow. Like come on, that's a $2 and 1 +buy discount compared to buying 2 Villages. That's sounds so good.
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Pathfinding: Well, we always knew drawing cards was strong. I guess $8 is a reasonable cost to turn all my villages into Lost Cities, my Smithies into super Smithies. And, geese Hunting Grounds can now draw 5 cards.
Pearl Divers into Labs; Pawns into a BoM-style Lab/Village/Peddler/Market Square.
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Okay so if someone plays Warrior, I actually discard the card before it's trashed? Which means that if it's Tunnel, I can reveal it to gain a Gold, covering it up so that it's lost track of, and it doesn't actually get trashed?
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I wonder how many engines there will be centered around just getting champion ASAP and buying a bunch of smithies. Seems like it could work. Teacher can also get ridiculous in really long games.
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Pathfiding Pawns can't be Villages; only Lost Arts Pawns (Lost Pawns?) can.
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Pathfinding: Well, we always knew drawing cards was strong. I guess $8 is a reasonable cost to turn all my villages into Lost Cities, my Smithies into super Smithies. And, geese Hunting Grounds can now draw 5 cards.
Pearl Divers into Labs; Pawns into a BoM-style Lab/Village/Peddler/Market Square.
It's even better than you describe, because you get +1 Card first to help inform your decision.
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Some of the Travellers might be more useful than their exchangees. Treasure Hunter in Feodum games. Also Soldier turns attacks into a +coin sort of; this could be good with cantrip attacks (Urchin/Familiar). I don't know.
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Raid+Feodum too wow.
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...Oh dear god.
"Player A plays Treasure Hunter! Player A gains two Silvers! Player A buys a Silver!"
"Player B plays Treasure Hunter! Player B gains three Silvers! Player B buys a Silver!"
"Player A plays Throne Room! Player A plays Treasure Hunter! Player A gains four Silvers! Player A plays Treasure Hunter! Player A gains four Silvers!"
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Miser lets you Pirate Ship yourself. I like it.
I loved Miser, especially when I was able to multi-play it with Royal Carriage. It presents some difficult choices, do I want $4 now, or another copper out of my deck and $5 for my next Miser? I guess Pirate Ship has the same situation (except there you risk getting nothing if you don't take the money). I ended up with all 7 Coppers set aside. And I may have had my action token on Miser too.
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Okay so if someone plays Warrior, I actually discard the card before it's trashed? Which means that if it's Tunnel, I can reveal it to gain a Gold, covering it up so that it's lost track of, and it doesn't actually get trashed?
That sounds correct.
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Some of the Travellers might be more useful than their exchangees. Treasure Hunter in Feodum games. Also Soldier turns attacks into a +coin sort of; this could be good with cantrip attacks (Urchin/Familiar). I don't know.
Definitely. Once you get one of the top level, anyway. I remember choosing not to exchange other travelers several times. Especially to avoid Treasure Hunter. Also, sometimes you have Disciple with no actions in hand. Happened to me and my opponent; we both chose to play it for the exchange anyway, but it's an annoying decision.
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Okay so if someone plays Warrior, I actually discard the card before it's trashed? Which means that if it's Tunnel, I can reveal it to gain a Gold, covering it up so that it's lost track of, and it doesn't actually get trashed?
That sounds correct.
I'm not sure about this... If you discard multiple at once, then a card can get trashed even though it's been covered up, in the same way that Tunnel can be revealed even though it's been covered up. So I don't see why covering it with Gold would protect it.
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I love the strategy the Traveller cards present. It adds a cool layer to the game. Also, though unrelated, Artificer's art reminds me of Baker (and looks really strong tbh; imagine how it'd work with Counting House).
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Okay so if someone plays Warrior, I actually discard the card before it's trashed? Which means that if it's Tunnel, I can reveal it to gain a Gold, covering it up so that it's lost track of, and it doesn't actually get trashed?
I'm not sure about this... If you discard multiple at once, then a card can get trashed even though it's been covered up, in the same way that Tunnel can be revealed even though it's been covered up. So I don't see why covering it with Gold would protect it.
The discard and trashing is resolved one-at-a-time, not "first discard all, then trash all that meet criteria". So that doesn't disprove.
It's pretty counterintuitive that you get to keep the tunnel...an interesting case.
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Okay so if someone plays Warrior, I actually discard the card before it's trashed? Which means that if it's Tunnel, I can reveal it to gain a Gold, covering it up so that it's lost track of, and it doesn't actually get trashed?
I'm not sure about this... If you discard multiple at once, then a card can get trashed even though it's been covered up, in the same way that Tunnel can be revealed even though it's been covered up. So I don't see why covering it with Gold would protect it.
The discard and trashing is resolved one-at-a-time, not "first discard all, then trash all that meet criteria". So that doesn't disprove.
It's pretty counterintuitive that you get to keep the tunnel...an interesting case.
Ah, from the faq wording, which I was looking at, it sounded more like discard all then trash. But from the wording on the card, you're right. So Tunnel very well could save itself; will definitely need a ruling on this one.
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Yeah I looked in the FAQ to see if that question would be answered, but it just made it even less clear. The wording of the card doesn't match the explanation in the FAQ in my opinion. I'm guessing the FAQ just says it that way because it's clearer to people who don't understand the card, and really they are happening one at a time.
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For those discussing Wine Merchant, it's not great, but the trick is playing more than one Wine Merchant so that you only pay the $2 once for all of them.
I am aware of this, but terminal coin at $5 with a drawback still seems extraordinarily weak. Wine Merchant seems to be on the same or lower power level as Mandarin or Harvest.
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Horse Traders > Wine Merchant. Though I could see WM having a niche in certain games.
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Horse Traders > Wine Merchant. Though I could see WM having a niche in certain games.
I don't think they're really comparable. Horse Traders helps you hit mid price points (i.e. exactly $5) reliably, Wine Merchant helps you hit high price points ($7+) unreliably. You don't buy a Horse Traders in order to luck out an early King's Court, and you (probably) don't buy a Wine Merchant in order to keep buying Duchies and Dukes reliably.
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For those discussing Wine Merchant, it's not great, but the trick is playing more than one Wine Merchant so that you only pay the $2 once for all of them.
I am aware of this, but terminal coin at $5 with a drawback still seems extraordinarily weak. Wine Merchant seems to be on the same or lower power level as Mandarin or Harvest.
I imagine Wine Merchant playing out in a particular way when it's the only +Buy card in the kingdom. You play it and maybe buy a VP card and an engine component, or 2 engine components, or just 2 Provinces. The next turn you buy Province for 10 or more. Rince and repeat. Yeah, that sounds slightly better than an engine with no +buy but still not particularly exciting.
Oh but it might be good in the context of Adventures with all the expensive events.
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For those discussing Wine Merchant, it's not great, but the trick is playing more than one Wine Merchant so that you only pay the $2 once for all of them.
I am aware of this, but terminal coin at $5 with a drawback still seems extraordinarily weak. Wine Merchant seems to be on the same or lower power level as Mandarin or Harvest.
Well, it's definitely not. It's almost a joke to compare it to Harvest, come on, it's got a +buy! You get it when you need +buy, or somehow have actions to spare (maybe your draw engine is Lost Cities, or some village with the +card token (oh hey Wine Merchant can help you hit $8 for Pathfinding)). I don't know what to tell you, it's not a power card. It's just a Woodcutter variant that can give you spikes in money, or pretty good money period if you play multiples.
FWIW it's worth I thought it was garbage too until I played some games with it. And then I decided it has its uses and is not at all comparable to Harvest/Mandarin level stuff.
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Wine Merchant can be a $5 Woodcutter. Woodcutter is weak even at $3, but when it's worthwhile it can stay worthwhile even at high prices. Of course, the more you can play, the more cost-effective it gets.
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Surely wine merchant should be compared to merchant ship? Both give $4 total. Merchant ship splits over 2 turns, wine merchant give a buy but is semi-one shot.
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Horse Traders > Wine Merchant. Though I could see WM having a niche in certain games.
I don't think they're really comparable. Horse Traders helps you hit mid price points (i.e. exactly $5) reliably, Wine Merchant helps you hit high price points ($7+) unreliably. You don't buy a Horse Traders in order to luck out an early King's Court, and you (probably) don't buy a Wine Merchant in order to keep buying Duchies and Dukes reliably.
Exactly this. Better comparisons I made earlier are to Baron and Death Cart. You know when you want those, so think about when you want Wine Merchant in a similar way.
To people saying it's not a "strong" card, what is the point of this? There are very often times when you'd want a Wine Merchant or two in your deck, and that's all a card needs to do to be a nice addition to Dominion.
As long as we're making trivial complaints, my biggest beef with this card is the art! Man, who wants to be seen around that guy? I'm scooting to the other edge of the tavern, bro.
Surely wine merchant should be compared to merchant ship? Both give $4 total. Merchant ship splits over 2 turns, wine merchant give a buy but is semi-one shot.
I... really don't think the two cards are at all comparable in what you need them for, other than costing 5 and providing virtual coin.
Though, that does raise the old point that Merchant Ship should have the +buy instead of Wharf. If Merchant Ship had that buy it'd be comparable to Wine Merchant, but it doesn't so it isn't.
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Better comparisons I made earlier are to Baron and Death Cart. You know when you want those
Mostly just Baron, I think. The main reason why I buy Death Cart is because that way I can empty the Ruins pile for a 3-pile ending.
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...Oh dear god.
"Player A plays Treasure Hunter! Player A gains two Silvers! Player A buys a Silver!"
"Player B plays Treasure Hunter! Player B gains three Silvers! Player B buys a Silver!"
"Player A plays Throne Room! Player A plays Treasure Hunter! Player A gains four Silvers! Player A plays Treasure Hunter! Player A gains four Silvers!"
I have seen a single Treasure Hunter gain 16 Silvers. True story.
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Predictions and things that remind me of other past things!
Champion gives you +1 Action when you play an Action. Back in the Treasure Chest contest for Cornucopia (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9756.0), my winning card did something similar:
Storyteller
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. If this is the first time you played a Storyteller this turn, +1 Action.
While this is in play, when you play an Action card that you don't already have a copy of in play, +1 Action.
Clarification: The first Storyteller you play only gives you +1 Action, not +2 Actions, because it wasn't in play when you played it.
I've definitely seen the basic premise of Raze before (TfB like Apprentice/Salvager, but for filtering). I think it was in one of the forum design contests, but I can't seem to find it. I guess it wasn't a winner. But hey, credit to whoever had that idea.
(I'm catching up on the thread before posting this; I see that Archetype has quoted his Observatory fan card for this. I remember that thread; I'm still wondering if it also appeared in a design contest before that.)
I'm pretty sure that I've seen something like Gear in a design contest too, but that's even hazier than the Raze-like card.
Caravan Guard lets you play it out of turn and it just flat out states that the +1 Action doesn't do anything for you when that happens. I'm pretty sure I've seen fan cards that let you play them or another card out of turn, which I criticized because getting +1 Action or +$1 out of turn is meaningless. Apologies to those people. :P
I think I've seen Port before (exactly as written, or almost so). Again, don't know where.
Artificer's discard-to-gain Vault/Workshop combo is familiar; I think it was in a design contest at some point.
Bridge Troll has definitely appeared in multiple fan card incarnations (all worse than the official implementation).
Wine Merchant uses the Reserve mat as a penalty. I had suggested that at some point (can't find it right now), but Wine Merchant does it in a different way. It keeps itself on the mat until you meet a requirement, whereas my idea was to have a "while this is in your Tavern" effect which was negative and made you want to call the card sooner rather than waiting for the perfect time.
I correctly speculated here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12391.msg463157#msg463157) that the tokens would include a cost reduction token and a trashing token, except I did not predict that it would be an on-buy trash.
Travelling Fair is the +2 Buys event and it costs $2. Just as predicted!
- An event that gives you +2 Buys. I think this is totally a thing that can happen. When this idea came up before, the abuse case was primarily due to cost reduction, but Events are unaffected by Bridge and the like so it should work fine. I would guess $2 for +2 Buys. (I see that you have this in the OP as well. I think $1 cost is too easy though).
Miscellaneous comments:
- Wine Merchant looks like Kingpin.
- Masterpiece/Trader/Feodum with Page (Treasure Hunter!), and Trade and Raid for events.
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Yeah I looked in the FAQ to see if that question would be answered, but it just made it even less clear. The wording of the card doesn't match the explanation in the FAQ in my opinion. I'm guessing the FAQ just says it that way because it's clearer to people who don't understand the card, and really they are happening one at a time.
Also, lots of card FAQs (especially in the early expansions) address what happens if you have to reshuffle in the middle of resolving a card, but this one doesn't. Based on the way the card is worded, you presumably reshuffle in any (untrashed) cards that you discarded before having to reshuffle; that's different enough from the way cards like Cartographer work that the fact that the FAQ doesn't explain this is kind of confusing.
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Okay so if someone plays Warrior, I actually discard the card before it's trashed? Which means that if it's Tunnel, I can reveal it to gain a Gold, covering it up so that it's lost track of, and it doesn't actually get trashed?
I'm not sure about this... If you discard multiple at once, then a card can get trashed even though it's been covered up, in the same way that Tunnel can be revealed even though it's been covered up. So I don't see why covering it with Gold would protect it.
The discard and trashing is resolved one-at-a-time, not "first discard all, then trash all that meet criteria". So that doesn't disprove.
It's pretty counterintuitive that you get to keep the tunnel...an interesting case.
Ah, from the faq wording, which I was looking at, it sounded more like discard all then trash. But from the wording on the card, you're right. So Tunnel very well could save itself; will definitely need a ruling on this one.
With 3 Travellers in play, you discard, maybe trash, discard, maybe trash, discard, maybe trash.
Yes covered-up cards are lost track of.
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I'm going crazy over the audacity of Port, guys. It's like getting Talisman when Village is on the board, but YOU DON'T NEED A COPPER IN YOUR DECK.
I'm going to be a parrot and say how ridiculous Champion is, but that's because it is. True, in the absence of enablers you have to keep cycling and get the Champion. By the time you do, the curser's job will be done, and good luck playing the different Travellers if your opponent's Rabble engine keeps skipping them. But if Herald or Scavenger were on the board with Page, I would be hesitant to invest in any attack.
I'm going to enjoy taking these Travellers on their journeys. Though am I the only one confused that the page doesn't turn into a teacher and the soldier doesn't turn into a champion? That's the unpredictability of life, I guess.
Raze is that lovely Gambler variant (Enterprise) that I was hoping to see official at one point.
Caravan Guard looks to be the "crazy taboo breaker" of the set.
Gear is a Haven-lover's dream. Gives more options and a bigger pool to set aside at the expense of it being terminal.
Save, I will always buy with an important reaction on the board. Always. Alwaaaaaayyyyyyyyssssss. Though obviously it's no good with Beggar or Market Square.
I don't think there's a card I'm more excited to see used in play than Artificer. It's a Peddler that can choose what you draw next if you have more than one of them. Of course, you need good draw to give yourself options, but meh, when has that ever not been the case?
Distant Lands...eh? It's cool-looking, and it's refreshing to finally see a 5-cost alt-VP other than Duke. But like, it's an expensive Island that doesn't psuedo-trash. Sure it can be worth twice as much VP, but only if you get to play it, so it's really just as much as Island on average. Obviously it's best if you have tight control over your deck, but you'd better if you're going to get a card that costs the same as Duchy, is worth 1VP more if things go as planned, and is worth 3VP less if they don't.
Relic!!!!! There's the Treasure-Attack. I was, and still am, probably way too excited for this.
Treasure Trove! Is it better than Cache? Probably. Is it better than Silver? Probably only in money games. Seems pretty straightforward, honestly.
Most of the events I really feel like I have to play before saying ANYTHING about them. The mechanics are just so different, especially since they use player tokens far more than the cards do. But Ferry, as someone already mentioned, can solve that frustrating BoM problem of choosing a powerful 5 over it. Also the price points clearly tell us that cards are better than coins, which are better than buys (Pathfinding, Training, Seaway). We have the answer now.
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Buying a Lab increases your draw-your-deck ability by one card.
Buying a Duchy or Distant Lands decreases your draw-your-deck ability by one card.
Playing a Distant Lands increases your draw-your-deck ability by one card.
Sounds pretty solid to me. If your engine can afford to buy, draw, and play one every turn, you're getting 4 VP every time without clogging your deck.
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Though am I the only one confused that the page doesn't turn into a teacher and the soldier doesn't turn into a champion? That's the unpredictability of life, I guess.
...
Also the price points clearly tell us that cards are better than coins, which are better than buys (Pathfinding, Training, Seaway). We have the answer now.
A Page is basically a knight-in-training, so it makes sense that she eventually becomes the champion. The oddest thing in that line is Treasure Hunter, which I take to be a kind of "rebellious youth" phase.
The Peasant line makes sense too. He gets drafted into a war he never wanted to be in and it changes him. He wanders as a fugitive before settling down into a more peaceful life.
+1 Card has more potential than +1 Coin because the card you draw will often be better than a Copper. We certainly knew that +1 Buy is "worth" less than the other vanilla bonuses because of Sir Martin. The key thing is that your first extra Buy is worth a lot, but the next Buy is worth much less (in most decks). It has rapidly-diminishing returns.
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It's worth comparing to cantrips. Village, a cantrip +Action, costs $3, while Lab, a cantrip +Card, costs $5. Peddler variants indicate that a simple cantrip +Coin would be priced somewhere around $4, as better versions get priced at $5 and worse versions get priced at $3, so it's somewhere between the value of cantrip +Action and cantrip +Card in any case. Meanwhile the closest thing to cantrip +Buy is Market Square, which has the same $3 cost as Village but with a Reaction bonus, so that's clearly valued less.
The token cards show a similar heirarchy but with +Coin having the same value as +Action rather than higher. I suspect this relates to the diminishing returns exhibited by +Action and +Buy but not by +Coin and +Card. It's a lot easier to ensure that the extra Action from Lost Arts will get used than from Village.
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Plan: !!!! Yes! Wow! This is really good trashing. This card might allow you to skip buying a trasher altogether. Hell, Village can become a trasher. I don't know. As far as trashers goes, I have a feeling this is up there with the likes of Steward. This is actually probably better. Not Chapel strong, but really damn strong. Man, I can actually live the dream and open Village, or better yet, Port.
You realize Plan lets you trash a card when you buy from the pile with the token, not when you play a card from that pile, right?
Oops! I misread. Still solid
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Thoughts on card strength...
Gendo brought this up in a Fan Cards thread, but Ratcatcher seems pretty strong. Cantrip trashing for $2 is a steal! I think that the one turn delay for being a Reserve card will actually be significant though. Nonetheless, I can imagine opening Ratcatcher/Ratcatcher.
The Caravan Guard reaction is interesting in that it might not actually defend you against anything. It just gets you +$1 earlier and makes it less likely for the card to miss the reshuffle. On its own, I can't think of any attack that it actually defends against. Against discard attacks, it doesn't have the same drawback as other cantrips. It helps a bit against Minion. Not sure what else.
Hmm... I neglected to mention it above, but I think the effect on Dungeon was submitted in a design contest as well. Dungeon seems pretty weak to me. Well, it's weak when you play it and decent on the turn after that.
Miser looks like a much better version of Pirate Ship, but still not amazing.
Artificer looks like a killer combo with Scrying Pool.
Bridge Troll vs. Cutpurse, the first attack is stronger (guaranteed money cut) but it doesn't stack. Bridge Troll vs. Bridge, Bridge seems better except Bridge Troll kicks in on your next turn as well, making it a little easier to get multiples into play. That (and the attack) might be enough to make it preferable to Bridge, actually.
Treasure Trove sounds pretty good for money games... Actually, I think it might be really good with Gardens. A weakness in many Gardens strategies is that it falls behind if it can't end the game fast enough. With Treasure Trove, the extra Gold may actually help the Gardens player spike a couple of Provinces. I don't know, maybe that's just crazy talk...
The Page line is pretty interesting, but I worry that it might be as centralizing as Cultist and Rebuild. Champion is obviously extremely powerful, especially considering Warrior. With Champion, every Warrior is a Lab and the attack stacks painfully. Warrior only hits $3s and $4s, but I think most engines still rely on some of these mid-cost cards (cost reduction just makes her scarier). Warrior herself costs $4, which means they can trash each other and really set another player behind. I'm thinking that ignoring Champion could be disastrous even though it takes five shuffles to get her into play, just because a stack of warriors can be so destructive. You have to race for it and hope to get a Hero before it's too late. Hero can't die to Warrior (without cost reduction) so you can eventually get a Champion in play to stop a barrage of Warriors. I guess it's a good thing that there are only 5 Warriors. Other than that, it's worth noting that Treasure Hunter and Hero put treasures into your deck, which slows down Champion a little bit (she would prefer a deck full of actions, I think).
I like the Peasant line a lot. Peasant has the same vanilla bonuses of Herbalist (and going by the art, he likes his herbs plenty). Soldier is a fraction of a Militia. Fugitive is that Lab+Discard we've heard about in the secret histories. Disciple is a cool throne+gain and Teacher is a token-giver. I actually see less mechanical cohesion in this Traveller line, but that's OK. I think this is more of a support line that complements another strategy rather than being a strategy unto itself. The first three cards all fit well enough into any strategy. Disciple wants more actions and helps you get them faster, and then Teacher enhances your action-filled deck. If Disciple has gotten you many terminals, you can move the +1 Action token there. You can distribute the other tokens as desired. I do wonder whether it was necessary to restrict Teacher from putting multiple tokens onto one card. OK, yes, that could be very powerful, but Champion still seems like a bigger deal. It would take a lot of work to play Teacher that much anyway!
Save seems like a really powerful Event. It is really handy with Moat and Watchtower, at least!
How often is it a good idea to open with Bonfire to trash two Copper (or maybe Necropolis and Copper)? Consider, it's often a good idea to open Great Hall just to trash Hovel.
Ferry seems like it could be ridiculous with BoM, Haggler, Border Village, etc. Man, it might even make Talisman a really good plan...
I think Plan will be tough to play with. You should probably buy it early if at all, and then you want to choose a pile that you want to drive that also isn't too expensive. It seems a little less valuable for trashing Copper just because it means you have to keep the Copper in hand (thus costing you $1 that turn).
Also, I just noticed that Seaway is price-restricted... you can only move the +1 Buy token to the pile from which you gain a card, and that card has to cost $4 or less. Huh!
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\The Caravan Guard reaction is interesting in that it might not actually defend you against anything. It just gets you +$1 earlier and makes it less likely for the card to miss the reshuffle. On its own, I can't think of any attack that it actually defends against.
Well, Bridge Troll.
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The Caravan Guard reaction is interesting in that it might not actually defend you against anything. It just gets you +$1 earlier and makes it less likely for the card to miss the reshuffle. On its own, I can't think of any attack that it actually defends against.
Well, Bridge Troll.
Sort of? But you also lose the +$1 you would have had on the next turn.
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Yeah I don't get Caravan Guard conceptually. "If an opponent plays an Attack, this gets to function as an actual Peddler rather than as a delayed one." It comes off as really incoherent.
I guess as a cantrip it's good to see what it'll draw before deciding for discard attacks but still.
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Yeah I don't get Caravan Guard conceptually. "If an opponent plays an Attack, this gets to function as an actual Peddler rather than as a delayed one." It comes off as really incoherent.
I guess as a cantrip it's good to see what it'll draw before deciding for discard attacks but still.
It also lets see the next card in your deck, so you don't have to go back and forth on whether or not you want to discard this cantrip. Just play it! In my mind, they're also better in multiples.
"I play Militia."
"I play five Caravan Guards! Think I'll buy a Province next turn."
EDIT: You can also put a +1 Card token on it and increase your handsize!
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Yeah I don't get Caravan Guard conceptually. "If an opponent plays an Attack, this gets to function as an actual Peddler rather than as a delayed one." It comes off as really incoherent.
I guess as a cantrip it's good to see what it'll draw before deciding for discard attacks but still.
Your baseline peddler +1card,+1action,+1$ card is conceptually priced at 4$, and caravan guard only costs three, so it makes sense that a 3$ card would be less powerful. As far as I can see it's just a delayed peddler that missed reshuffles, but becomes a bargain full peddler when attacks start flying. I suppose getting to play it early gives you a bit more information if you get hit by a militia or something before your next turn.
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Yeah I don't get Caravan Guard conceptually. "If an opponent plays an Attack, this gets to function as an actual Peddler rather than as a delayed one." It comes off as really incoherent.
I guess as a cantrip it's good to see what it'll draw before deciding for discard attacks but still.
This is how I feel about it too. The idea of "play a card in reaction to an Attack" is cool and obviously it's tricky to execute, but I don't feel like Caravan Guard really does it well. It just doesn't feel like it will be that exciting to play it a turn early. I think it would have made more sense if it had been terminal, so you're getting an extra action that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise.
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Yeah I don't get Caravan Guard conceptually. "If an opponent plays an Attack, this gets to function as an actual Peddler rather than as a delayed one." It comes off as really incoherent.
I guess as a cantrip it's good to see what it'll draw before deciding for discard attacks but still.
That's exactly what I said. :P I guess nobody read it because it was in a post with a bunch of other comments:
The Caravan Guard reaction is interesting in that it might not actually defend you against anything. It just gets you +$1 earlier and makes it less likely for the card to miss the reshuffle. On its own, I can't think of any attack that it actually defends against. Against discard attacks, it doesn't have the same drawback as other cantrips. It helps a bit against Minion. Not sure what else.
Yeah I don't get Caravan Guard conceptually. "If an opponent plays an Attack, this gets to function as an actual Peddler rather than as a delayed one." It comes off as really incoherent.
I guess as a cantrip it's good to see what it'll draw before deciding for discard attacks but still.
It also lets see the next card in your deck, so you don't have to go back and forth on whether or not you want to discard this cantrip. Just play it! In my mind, they're also better in multiples.
"I play Militia."
"I play five Caravan Guards! Think I'll buy a Province next turn."
EDIT: You can also put a +1 Card token on it and increase your handsize!
OK, I guess if you have a whole bunch of them then it's a bigger difference. The +1 Card token doesn't really work just because you could have gotten that bonus anyway by playing the card on your own turn. It actually makes the reaction a little worse against most hand-size attacks because you'll still be discarding down to a fixed number. It would be helpful against Torturer though!
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A (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/14px-Coin4.png) cost Caravan is a delayed (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/14px-Coin5.png) cost Lab
A (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/14px-Coin3.png) cost Caravan Guard is a delayed (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/14px-Coin4.png) cost (conceptual) Peddler
Seems legit.
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Yeah I don't get Caravan Guard conceptually. "If an opponent plays an Attack, this gets to function as an actual Peddler rather than as a delayed one." It comes off as really incoherent.
I guess as a cantrip it's good to see what it'll draw before deciding for discard attacks but still.
Your baseline peddler +1card,+1action,+1$ card is conceptually priced at 4$, and caravan guard only costs three, so it makes sense that a 3$ card would be less powerful. As far as I can see it's just a delayed peddler that missed reshuffles, but becomes a bargain full peddler when attacks start flying. I suppose getting to play it early gives you a bit more information if you get hit by a militia or something before your next turn.
The "$3 weaker Peddler" part makes perfect sense. It's the "weakness goes away in the presence of Attacks" thing I'm hung up on.
Yeah I don't get Caravan Guard conceptually. "If an opponent plays an Attack, this gets to function as an actual Peddler rather than as a delayed one." It comes off as really incoherent.
I guess as a cantrip it's good to see what it'll draw before deciding for discard attacks but still.
That's exactly what I said. :P I guess nobody read it because it was in a post with a bunch of other comments:
Yeah I was agreeing with you. :p
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@Gherald, did you actually go to the effort of dropping in images for the coin costs, or do you have a browser extension or something? Either way, well done. :P
@TheOthin, I think the hang-up is that this reaction specifically responds to attacks, but the response doesn't seem to actually help against attacks (minus a few special cases). I'll get over it though.
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It's the "weakness goes away in the presence of Attacks" thing I'm hung up on.
Well .. when you are attacked, aren't you gonna be happy that you already hired a guard? That's foresight, man. He gets to do something productive this turn rather than laze around. So you get your GDP boost now and well that's (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/14px-Coin.png)
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did you actually go to the effort of dropping in images for the coin costs, or do you have a browser extension or something? Either way, well done. :P
Heh, I was bored one night and dropped 30 lines of javascript..
(http://i.imgur.com/oE4h2qL.png)
Works just as you'd expect
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@TheOthin, I think the hang-up is that this reaction specifically responds to attacks, but the response doesn't seem to actually help against attacks (minus a few special cases). I'll get over it though.
I mean, back when Guilds came out we were all wondering "Why isn't there a Reaction that gives you a coin token when someone else plays an Attack"? That wouldn't have directly countered any Attacks either, but it seemed like a reasonable idea. This is more or less that Reaction, just without the coin token.
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@TheOthin, I think the hang-up is that this reaction specifically responds to attacks, but the response doesn't seem to actually help against attacks (minus a few special cases). I'll get over it though.
I mean, back when Guilds came out we were all wondering "Why isn't there a Reaction that gives you a coin token when someone else plays an Attack"? That wouldn't have directly countered any Attacks either, but it seemed like a reasonable idea. This is more or less that Reaction, just without the coin token.
The thing is, I would also have questioned that reaction if it were something like,
Oven Mitt
$5 - Action-Reaction
+1 Card
+1 Action
Take a coin token.
When another player plays an Attack card, you may play this from your hand.
(+1 Action has no effect if it's not your turn.)
(It's called Oven Mitt because that's a Baker's Guard.)
Caravan Guard reminds me of that. Whether you play it on your turn or from the reaction, it doesn't seem so different. Getting the coin earlier seems like a very minor thing, but it probably matters more than I'm giving it credit for.
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Hmm, wouldn't the actual analog be a duration baker that gives you the token on your next turn and one that has a reaction to get it a turn earlier?
Your Oven Mitt example isn't actually different from a regular Baker other than the reaction, whereas Caravan Guard is different from a Peddler-variant in an additional way (it's a duration, like Caravan vs. Lab)
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Hmm, wouldn't the actual analog be a duration baker that gives you the token on your next turn and one that has a reaction to get it a turn earlier?
Your Oven Mitt example isn't actually different from a regular Baker other than the reaction, whereas Caravan Guard is different from a Peddler-variant in an additional way (it's a duration, like Caravan vs. Lab)
I don't mean to compare Oven Mitt with Baker, just the action with the reaction. Also, my example is exaggerated. I did note that the reaction of Caravan Guard is different from the action in that it is more immediate -- you get the next turn effect sooner than if you just held onto it to play on your turn. My point is that it seems to be very similar, whereas Oven Mitt's reaction and action are even closer to equivalent (though there are still some differences).
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My point is that it seems to be very similar
Well, Caravan seems to be very similar to Lab, right? Yet we know they play differently, and that one can get away with costing less
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I guess the thing that Caravan does when attacked is let you decide whether you want your +$1 this turn or next turn. Obviously a lot of the time you'll want it this turn simply because earlier is better, although if you've otherwise got $3 and will buy a Silver regardless or $5 and you'll buy a $5-cost regardless you'd rather delay it. It also encourages deck-tracking, since what you'll draw with obviously have an effect on what you can spend. So yeah it's generally going to be worse than a cantrip coin, but it'll also require more skill to get the best use out of it, in a similar though lesser way than a coin token is better than a coin.
I don't understand how it 'Guards' anything though.
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It's an immediately-effective part of your deck when you're under attack, otherwise it just kind of lazes around for awhile
If that's not a guard, what is? :)
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Something that actually protects you from an attack in some way?
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Well this guard is part of your realm and it just so happens he was gainfully employed for some (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/14px-Coin.png) during that attack.
I'm sorry he wasn't able to entirely stop all those marauders from pillaging one of your markets. He's just one guard, you know?
But gainfully employed one - like that peddler you're always buying comic books from. (Seriously man, another copy of Ultimate Wolverine?)
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I think the doubters are underestimating how weak Caravan-Guard-without-reaction would be. It'd be quite weak. Caravan is good but probably not the best $4, despite drawing a card at the beginning of turn being very strong because it increases deck reliability. $1 is much worse than +1 card in most decks, and getting it at the beginning of turn doesn't help reliability at all. Caravan-Guard-without-reaction being a cantrip, you'd still put it in a lot of decks if you don't want more Silver, but that's true of Spy too and that's considered one of the worst $4s. (Keep in mind that $3 and $4 are very similar price points, so it's legit to compare Caravan Guard to $4s.)
If you expect to get hit by a discard attack every turn though, Caravan Guard becomes way better than Peddler, because of http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12863.0 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12863.0). If you're being reliably attacked by a non-discard attack, Caravan Guard is still often better than Peddler, for a few reasons: it might trigger a reshuffle before you receive a curse; and it facilitates start-of-turn from-hand effects (Amulet, Ratcatcher).
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Caravan-Guard-without-reaction being a cantrip, you'd still put it in a lot of decks if you don't want more Silver, but that's true of Spy too and that's considered one of the worst $4s.
Well CG directly adds to your economy whereas Spy only adds a tiny amount of sifting.
I think it's wrong to call CG without the reaction "quite weak". It looks better than Silver and Oasis in situations where you can't draw your deck.
But the reaction is nice, useful, thematic, adds good flavor, etc. A solid addition to the game.
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My point is that it seems to be very similar
Well, Caravan seems to be very similar to Lab, right? Yet we know they play differently, and that one can get away with costing less
Again, that is not what I'm getting at. I'm just saying that it feels weird to me that the action and the reaction are so very similar. They are certainly different, and I mentioned a few ways that they are different even when I first commented about it. It was not a comment on card strength or balance or price.
And Jimmmm hits it on the head too, part of it is also that this is a reaction specifically to an attack that feels unrelated to the attack (unlike all other such reactions), and the "Guard" name just exacerbates that thematic disconnect. (PPE: I don't think it's thematic or adds good flavour. The opposite, actually.)
The length of this discussion is making it seem like a bigger deal than it is. When I first commented on it, I didn't even say it was a bad thing. I just said that it was interesting.
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The rules are up! I guess Pacific time has its perks occasionally.
EDIT: The wiki (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Adventures) now has most of the information and low res images from the rules if you're interested in browsing the cards.
Pacific time?! That's my time zone! What island are you on?!
Also, it's ironic my picture is full of snow and your name is Arctic Penguin.
That's not irony.
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Caravan Guard being weak outside of the presence of attacks isn't a reason for Caravan Guard's Reaction being good; it's a reason for Caravan Guard's concept being bad.
I feel like it'd be more impressive if it was terminal but otherwise stronger, so you're playing it for free rather than wasting the +1 Action. Of course, then it'd take FAQ clarification about what to do if it had a +1 Action token on it since it would no longer make sense to have that on card text but that doesn't seem too awful.
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Caravan Guard is definitely a wtf card. It's probably not as bad as a lot of people think. A lot of times it has to be better than buying silver I would think.
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I'm sorry he wasn't able to entirely stop all those marauders from pillaging one of your markets. He's just one guard, you know?
Caravan Guard can never be hit by Pillage!
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Hey, that's a funny contrast. When it's your opponent that's picking what to discard, cantrips in hand become an advantage.
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Caravan-Guard-without-reaction being a cantrip, you'd still put it in a lot of decks if you don't want more Silver, but that's true of Spy too and that's considered one of the worst $4s.
Well CG directly adds to your economy whereas Spy only adds a tiny amount of sifting.
I think it's wrong to call CG without the reaction "quite weak". It looks better than Silver and Oasis in situations where you can't draw your deck.
But the reaction is nice, useful, thematic, adds good flavor, etc. A solid addition to the game.
This sums up my thoughts on CG.
What does it guard? Not you, the monarch/player. It guards your Caravans. You play a Caravan and a Caravan Guard. You get their duration bonuses at the same time. Since Militia, coin has been associated with fighters as well as commerce, but this is especially so in this expansion (Soldier, Training, maybe a few others I'm forgetting). CG is just a Caravan escort. If you get attacked, they spring to action.
Playing CG through the reaction is a whole lot better than playing it normally on your turn and having to wait until the turn after that to discard it. Playing it on your opponent's turn means you can discard it on your next turn, so it can be played again the next turn (or even played as a reaction).
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I'm just saying that it feels weird to me that the action and the reaction are so very similar.
I agree that this feels kind of weird, but I mean, why shouldn't they be? A lot of new Dominion players are confused by the fact that the same card's Action and Reaction effects are so different from each other.
And Jimmmm hits it on the head too, part of it is also that this is a reaction specifically to an attack that feels unrelated to the attack (unlike all other such reactions)
Most Reactions to Attacks are unrelated to some Attacks. Horse Traders hard-counters Militia, but just gives you +1 card against Witch—a nice bonus to have, but not actually countering the Attack. Beggar keeps Saboteur away from the cards you care about, but against Ghost Ship it's just hey, who wouldn't like a couple of Silvers? Caravan Guard is to most Attacks as Horse Traders is to non-handsize attacks—a nice consolation prize for getting attacked, not a counter that neutralizes the attack itself.
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I'm just saying that it feels weird to me that the action and the reaction are so very similar.
I agree that this feels kind of weird, but I mean, why shouldn't they be? A lot of new Dominion players are confused by the fact that the same card's Action and Reaction effects are so different from each other.
And Jimmmm hits it on the head too, part of it is also that this is a reaction specifically to an attack that feels unrelated to the attack (unlike all other such reactions)
Most Reactions to Attacks are unrelated to some Attacks. Horse Traders hard-counters Militia, but just gives you +1 card against Witch—a nice bonus to have, but not actually countering the Attack. Beggar keeps Saboteur away from the cards you care about, but against Ghost Ship it's just hey, who wouldn't like a couple of Silvers? Caravan Guard is to most Attacks as Horse Traders is to non-handsize attacks—a nice consolation prize for getting attacked, not a counter that neutralizes the attack itself.
HT counters hand-size attacks. Beggar interferes with most trashing attacks and weakens discard attacks. Caravan Guard doesn't really respond to any type of attack. I'd expect a Guard to provide more of a defensive effect than Beggar.
I never said that it shouldn't be weird. I said that it was interesting!
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The thing about comparing to Horse Traders is, both against handsize and non-handsize Attacks, the Reaction part of Horse Traders is just so much more significant than the Reaction part of Caravan Guard. When it's an unrelated consolation, it's much better to get +1 Card at the start of your turn while still having Horse Traders on hand to use normally than it is to just get the +1 Coin from the one Caravan Guard play a bit faster, and against handsize Attacks, Horse Traders can outright block them while Caravan Guard just helps address the scenario where you'd discard Caravan Guard itself.
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Caravan Guard hard counters Bridge Troll.
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Caravan Guard hard counters Bridge Troll.
Hrm...
The Caravan Guard reaction is interesting in that it might not actually defend you against anything. It just gets you +$1 earlier and makes it less likely for the card to miss the reshuffle. On its own, I can't think of any attack that it actually defends against.
Well, Bridge Troll.
Sort of? But you also lose the +$1 you would have had on the next turn.
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Caravan Guard hard counters Bridge Troll.
Hrm...
The Caravan Guard reaction is interesting in that it might not actually defend you against anything. It just gets you +$1 earlier and makes it less likely for the card to miss the reshuffle. On its own, I can't think of any attack that it actually defends against.
Well, Bridge Troll.
Sort of? But you also lose the +$1 you would have had on the next turn.
Horse Traders hard-counters Militia, but only if you want Horse Traders to be one of the five cards you have in hand.
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Caravan Guard is a cantrip. You can spam them without hurting your deck. You can't spam Horse Traders or Moat.
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Caravan Guard hard counters Bridge Troll.
Hrm...
The Caravan Guard reaction is interesting in that it might not actually defend you against anything. It just gets you +$1 earlier and makes it less likely for the card to miss the reshuffle. On its own, I can't think of any attack that it actually defends against.
Well, Bridge Troll.
Sort of? But you also lose the +$1 you would have had on the next turn.
Horse Traders hard-counters Militia, but only if you want Horse Traders to be one of the five cards you have in hand.
But getting the Reaction doesn't take away from Horse Traders' on-play effect. Being in hand is a part of almost all Reactions.
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Is it just me, or is Gear sort of boring, like a terminal, optional, 2-card Haven? That's probably the card I'm least excited about from Adventures.
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Is it just me, or is Gear sort of boring, like a terminal, optional, 2-card Haven? That's probably the card I'm least excited about from Adventures.
Gear is a pretty strong card. It's not super sexy or anything, but it has some great big money and engine utility. Up to two cards is so much stronger than haven's one.
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Is it just me, or is Gear sort of boring, like a terminal, optional, 2-card Haven? That's probably the card I'm least excited about from Adventures.
Gear is a pretty strong card. It's not super sexy or anything, but it has some great big money and engine utility. Up to two cards is so much stronger than haven's one.
And +2 cards is already a reason to buy the card sometimes. Plus the Haven ability is a lot more useful on a terminal.
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Horse Traders > Wine Merchant. Though I could see WM having a niche in certain games.
As long as we're making trivial complaints, my biggest beef with this card is the art! Man, who wants to be seen around that guy? I'm scooting to the other edge of the tavern, bro.
Clearly a Merchant who knows his own wares.
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I'm really excited looking at all the new cards. The potential strategies and variety look to make this the best set yet! And most of the art is just far better than previous sets - particularly Guilds with all cartoon like images. And hats off again to the Wiki folks for getting all the cards and images posted so quickly!!
But....am I the only one disappointed in the low resolution rules? Why?? It is hard to read the card text even zoomed in, and it does not do justice to the well crafted art on the cards. I don't think the other rules weren't that low-res. Same goes for the low resolution images on the wiki where the images are about 1/2 the resolution of the existing cards. I do hope that there will at least be higher resolution images available for the wiki eventually... And it would be good if RG could post a higher res version of the rules.
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Most of the rules pdf I have are low-res.
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I'm really excited looking at all the new cards. The potential strategies and variety look to make this the best set yet! And most of the art is just far better than previous sets - particularly Guilds with all cartoon like images. And hats off again to the Wiki folks for getting all the cards and images posted so quickly!!
You're welcome! ArcticPenguin was great in getting all the images and raw FAQs up fast.
But....am I the only one disappointed in the low resolution rules? Why?? It is hard to read the card text even zoomed in, and it does not do justice to the well crafted art on the cards. I don't think the other rules weren't that low-res. Same goes for the low resolution images on the wiki where the images are about 1/2 the resolution of the existing cards. I do hope that there will at least be higher resolution images available for the wiki eventually... And it would be good if RG could post a higher res version of the rules.
All the rules PDFs on RGG are that blurry. I'll be scanning the physical cards and uploading them as soon as I get my own copy. The high-res art from the trivia sections of each card will have to wait until they're up on Dominion Online.
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I'm really excited looking at all the new cards. The potential strategies and variety look to make this the best set yet! And most of the art is just far better than previous sets - particularly Guilds with all cartoon like images. And hats off again to the Wiki folks for getting all the cards and images posted so quickly!!
You're welcome! ArcticPenguin was great in getting all the images and raw FAQs up fast.
But....am I the only one disappointed in the low resolution rules? Why?? It is hard to read the card text even zoomed in, and it does not do justice to the well crafted art on the cards. I don't think the other rules weren't that low-res. Same goes for the low resolution images on the wiki where the images are about 1/2 the resolution of the existing cards. I do hope that there will at least be higher resolution images available for the wiki eventually... And it would be good if RG could post a higher res version of the rules.
All the rules PDFs on RGG are that blurry. I'll be scanning the physical cards and uploading them as soon as I get my own copy. The high-res art from the trivia sections of each card will have to wait until they're up on Dominion Online.
Thanks for the quick reply - it is great that you keep on top of it! Look forward to having the higher res images on the wiki eventually Yeah...looking back, I guess the other rules I have were not that high res either, but I was able to read the cards on them better...maybe having more cards on one page caused them to be a little smaller. And perhaps having more text. I guess I was just so excited to finally see the cards and some great art that I was disappointed not to be able to see it clearer ; ) I guess ordering the game will resolve that.
P.S. One reason I keep all the PDF's is so that I can have them in the cloud and available on my iPhone if I don't happen to bring all the hard copy rules with me when playing away from home. The text on the rules themselves is still readable - just the text on the cards that is a bit hard to make out.
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Interesting cards and events ! There are very clever ideas… now I have to wait for a long time before the online implementation :'(
I don't understand the logic behind Page and Peasant. The effects are so unrelated, I'm not convinced by this because I guess there will be a race for the last card of the chain, after getting a card with some random effect in each previous upgrade. I guess you can control that by adjusting your deckbuilding… I mean if you know you will get a soldier for the next reshuffle, you can invest for more attacks and villages, but that's it.
Caravan guard is so weird.
Otherwise, love the remaining cards.
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I don't understand the logic behind Page and Peasant. The effects are so unrelated, I'm not convinced by this because I guess there will be a race for the last card of the chain, after getting a card with some random effect in each previous upgrade. I guess you can control that by adjusting your deckbuilding… I mean if you know you will get a soldier for the next reshuffle, you can invest for more attacks and villages, but that's it.
The Page line seems specifically designed to make it harder to reach Champion. The Peasant line seems specifically designed to make it easier to reach Teacher. I'm sure Donald X. will reveal his thinking behind it in the Secret History.
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Is anyone else disappointed that Ratcatcher doesn't combo with Rats?
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I don't understand the logic behind Page and Peasant. The effects are so unrelated, I'm not convinced by this because I guess there will be a race for the last card of the chain, after getting a card with some random effect in each previous upgrade. I guess you can control that by adjusting your deckbuilding… I mean if you know you will get a soldier for the next reshuffle, you can invest for more attacks and villages, but that's it.
The Page line seems specifically designed to make it harder to reach Champion. The Peasant line seems specifically designed to make it easier to reach Teacher. I'm sure Donald X. will reveal his thinking behind it in the Secret History.
Hmm yeah that's interesting, and it makes sense. Champion has an immediately game-changing effect (it's even non-terminal so you can play it at the start of your turn and then start the fun times), whereas Teacher is a lot slower - you have to spend an action to get it to the Tavern, then wait till your next turn to call it, then actually play your chosen card to get an effect out of it, and it takes a minimum of 4 turns to get its full effect.
So I guess in a sense if you have a Champion you've won that little battle and you get to enjoy the rewards, whereas getting a Teacher is only the start of the next phase of the game.
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Is anyone else disappointed that Ratcatcher doesn't combo with Rats?
Why it couldn't ?
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Is anyone else disappointed that Ratcatcher doesn't combo with Rats?
Why it couldn't ?
Well yeah you can use it to trash your Rats. But generally with both cards available (assuming you want trashing and there's nothing better), unless there's a good reason to get Rats, you just get Ratcatchers.
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Is anyone else disappointed that Ratcatcher doesn't combo with Rats?
Why it couldn't ?
Well yeah you can use it to trash your Rats. But generally with both cards available (assuming you want trashing and there's nothing better), unless there's a good reason to get Rats, you just get Ratcatchers.
Well, Ratcatchers are cheap, so if you find yourself infested with Rats, it wouldn't be a bad idea pick up a couple to help cull your deck.
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Is anyone else disappointed that Ratcatcher doesn't combo with Rats?
Why it couldn't ?
Well yeah you can use it to trash your Rats. But generally with both cards available (assuming you want trashing and there's nothing better), unless there's a good reason to get Rats, you just get Ratcatchers.
Naturally. You're already paying Gandalf to catch your rats, so why would you want to buy even more rats?
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Is anyone else disappointed that Ratcatcher doesn't combo with Rats?
Why it couldn't ?
Well yeah you can use it to trash your Rats. But generally with both cards available (assuming you want trashing and there's nothing better), unless there's a good reason to get Rats, you just get Ratcatchers.
Well, Ratcatchers are cheap, so if you find yourself infested with Rats, it wouldn't be a bad idea pick up a couple to help cull your deck.
Maybe. You'd rather your Apprentice/Bishop/Salvager/Remodel/etc catch them instead.
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Plan seems a little less valuable for trashing Copper just because it means you have to keep the Copper in hand (thus costing you $1 that turn).
Okay, but isn't that technically the case for any trasher that isn't TfB?
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I just realized Ranger and Giant don't have to conflict; you use terminal draw at the start or middle of your turn, and you use coin/attack payload at the end of it. Just use two of each, making sure you use both Rangers before you use both Giants.
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I just realized Ranger and Giant don't have to conflict; you use terminal draw at the start or middle of your turn, and you use coin/attack payload at the end of it. Just use two of each, making sure you use both Rangers before you use both Giants.
Why would order of play matter? So long as you don't alternate R-G-R-G it would work. R-G-G-R or G-R-R-G do the same thing as R-R-G-G. Assuming you have the 4 actions to play.
TR-TR-R-G works too.
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Plan seems a little less valuable for trashing Copper just because it means you have to keep the Copper in hand (thus costing you $1 that turn).
Okay, but isn't that technically the case for any trasher that isn't TfB?
No, because with regular trashers you can just trash your hand and that's it. Maybe you end your turn without buying anything afterwards, or you buy something cheaper instead. With Plan, you need to buy something specific before you are able to trash. Since you care about what you are buying, costing you that $1 hurts you a little bit more.
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I love alt-Victory cards. So Distant Lands was one of the first ones I looked at in the rule book. At first I thought maybe there was a card in the expansion that makes you take it off the mat or call it. But once you get it on the mat, that 4VP is secure, right? The problem is when you have to use an action for it that you would prefer to use for something else, or whether you take the chance late in the game that you buy it and may not get to play it before the game ends. Am I looking at this right or is there something that I am missing? Obviously if you have Duke in that kingdom, you go for Duchies. But as long as you have an engine going where you have the actions wouldn't this always be a better purchase than Duchy, maybe even Island, as long as you have the $5?
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If you have an engine drawing your deck every turn and you have spare actions and its not the last turn and you don't need a 3 point buffer to keep your opponent from ending the game, then yes this is strictly better than duchy. That's a lot of conditions though. But really, at that point you aren't trying to compete with duchy. You're competing with more engine stuff or if you're greening you're trying to balance non clogging these with clogging provinces.
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If you have an engine drawing your deck every turn and you have spare actions and its not the last turn and you don't need a 3 point buffer to keep your opponent from ending the game, then yes this is strictly better than duchy. That's a lot of conditions though. But really, at that point you aren't trying to compete with duchy. You're competing with more engine stuff or if you're greening you're trying to balance non clogging these with clogging provinces.
Were you the one who Duplicated all the Distant Landses?
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If you have an engine drawing your deck every turn and you have spare actions and its not the last turn and you don't need a 3 point buffer to keep your opponent from ending the game, then yes this is strictly better than duchy. That's a lot of conditions though. But really, at that point you aren't trying to compete with duchy. You're competing with more engine stuff or if you're greening you're trying to balance non clogging these with clogging provinces.
Were you the one who Duplicated all the Distant Landses?
I did do that. Fun times.
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One interesting thought that has occurred to me is that you can put a lot of Royal Carriages on your mat and have just a single Bridge out and then Royal Carriage the same Bridge multiple times. This sort of reminds me a lot of NV/Bridge. I have a feeling this can definitely be a thing.
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One interesting thought that has occurred to me is that you can put a lot of Royal Carriages on your mat and have just a single Bridge out and then Royal Carriage the same Bridge multiple times. This sort of reminds me a lot of NV/Bridge. I have a feeling this can definitely be a thing.
Probably needs a bit more support than that, since Royal Carriage is a $5. NV/Bridge is potent because the components are so cheap. I can definitely see that working though.
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So, anyway, here are my thoughts on the kingdom cards. I posted my thoughts on the Events earlier.
I will say this. I misread Plan and thought the ability was on play which would just be absurd. As it is though, I really like the card. Put it on Wishing Well or Caravan or something and that's really good trashing right there.
Anyway, onto the kingdom cards.
Amulet: I think with this on the board, you have to open Amulet/Amulet or Amulet with another trasher. If it is the only trashing, this is pretty good. Yah, it doesn't draw cards like Steward, but it does give coin later on, so yah, I think this card is solid, probably on the same power level as Forager or just a notch below.
Artificer: This card really needs an engine to work, but in the right engine this can be brutal. Draw to X loves this and so does Scrying Pool. At the very least, it's a Peddler, so there's that. I think as far as $5 costs go, this is probably somewhere in the middle but on the boards where it shines it can be really good like HoP good or better even.
Brdige Troll: So, a Double Bridge that can't be Throned. I guess that's pretty good. The second turn it's out makes it non-terminal. The attack seems kind of weak, but you are getting two Bridges over two turns. I do like how the card title references the original Bridge. I think power level, this is probably somewhere around Artificer. You don't get the coin from Bridge though, although you take a coin away. If you need +Buy this can be pretty handy and engines do like cost reducers. The only problem is that this competes with other 5 cost cards.
Caravan Guard: I know there is a lot of controversy over this guy. A lot of people think he's weak. Honestly though, having a cantrip at $3 is fine. I mean how often do I want Silver anyway. I think more often than not this guy is better than silver. Sure, the Peddler effect is delayed and he misses reshuffles more often, but he seems pretty good. Also, against Minion attacks or discarding attacks, this seems pretty good against those. I think people are underestimating this card. CG is not amazing or anything, but not terrible. I think it's a decent $3 and a card that people will often buy a lot of. Honestly, this seems better to me than Market Square most of the time.
Dungeon: A weird warehouse. I like that the sifting happens twice. Also, on your second turn, you start with a 5-card hand, so it doesn't cost a card like Warehouse. I think this is pretty solid and anytime you would want Warehouse, you would probably want this. Honestly, I would not surprised if this were actually a better card than Warehouse. It does have the potential though to trigger unwanted reshuffles.
Duplicate: Workshop that gains $6 cost cards and that I can save later. Seems solid. You can also save this for the late game with Highway, play two of them and then Pile Drive the Provinces. I can see that being an interesting deck that would probably work honestly. As far as workshop variants goes, I think this is on the same power level as Ironworks, maybe a little stronger because $6 is better than $4.
Gear: Seems like good draw. The setting aside part is pretty cool. I think it's good, but I'm not sure how good. I think playing Smithy or anything that draws 3 or more is probably better to play than this most of the time. Still though, I can see myself buying this card a fair amount of times.
Giant: I'm still not sold. I guess it's decent. Maybe playing with it more will change my mind. My guess is this is on a similar power level to Jester.
Guide: This card seems insanely strong. A power $3 for sure. There are so many times where getting a new hand is the best choice. This helps get to attacks quicker, you can upgrade Page/Peasant quicker. You can get rid of dud hands. You can also play out your engine, have your components miss the reshuffle and then call this to discard your bad hand. So, yah, this card is AMAZING!
Haunted Woods: I have done a little playing with this card. Okay, one game against myself. I have found that drawing on your next turn is really, really good. This is not Smithy. This is a delayed Hunting Grounds that does not eat up an action on your next turn. Playing two at once means you get an 11 card starting hand next turn. Don't underestimate this card. As far as card draw goes, this is probably one of the best card drawers in the game honestly.
Hireling: Seems solid, but worth skipping if you can find another way to draw out your engine. Well, getting one or two early can help. I mean starting each turn with a 6-card hand is pretty good actually. This is probably a mid-level 6-cost card.
Lost City: Seems good, but not a village I want too many. I think the drawback can really help the opponent, but engines often need draw and Villages and this gives both. I think it's good. I think it's a card I will buy on many, many boards, but I don't think it is broken or anything. It's probably on the same power level as Bazaar. Early on, this gives more draw reliability, but then I would switch to bazaar if both were on the board.
Magpie: From the little I have played with this card, it seems pretty strong. A lot of times, it ends up being a lab. Later on, it does lose it's strength. But, it's still really good. This is up there with Iron Monger, Caravan and friends. So, a very solid card.
Messenger: Umm.... Yah, that's all I have to say. I mean, maybe I need +buy. Chancellor effect is okay, but nothing earth shattering, but why would I want to give my opponent a card that I also want? I'm not sold on this card.
Miser: I think I would take Moneylender over this, but it does have the benefit of providing a lot of $ later on in the game. I see the Pirate Ship comparisons, but man this shits on PS. That card is so bad. This is actually useful. In Colony games, this can also help you reach Platinum and Colony more easily, or it can be a terminal Plat itself. Overall, I think this card is okay, but usually there will likely be a better trasher you want instead. I guess you can pair it with something like Raze or Forager though.
Ranger: This card is not reliable, but drawing 5 cards is better than 3. I think this card will be better than a lot of people realize. And, you might just need the +buy anyway. Still though, more often than not, a card like Smithy will be better, but I can also see this a lot of times being your only form of terminal draw. In other words, this card is decent, but not great, and yah, there are many times where you will just skip this, I think.
Ratcatcher: Seems pretty good. This is also an amazing defense against junking attacks, except Cultist. This is probably too slow for Cultist. This reminds me of Hermit in some ways, but you can also trash copper with it.
Raze: Another decent trasher. Forager is probably better, but this is non-terminal and can trash itself. If this were the only trasher on the board, I will probably open Raze/Raze.
Royal Carriage: So, it's a throne I can save for later, but with a few more uses. It seems decent. It does compete with the $5 price point, but being able to get this to line up with just the right card seems pretty good. This is probably a mid-tier $5 cost card, maybe a bit better. I don't think it is a power $5 though by any stretch of the imagination.
Swamp Hag: Against engines, this can really shut them down. Often people want to buy 2 or 3 or more cards in a turn. At the very least, this can slow down the engine player. Most other curse givers are probably better, but man, most junking attacks are OP. This actually seems to be of a reasonable power level. I do think this card is probably stronger than a lot of people may realize. We will see though. It's different. That's for sure. The +$3 seems okay, but nothing special.
Transmogrify: I'm just not sure on this card. I'm sure there are it's uses. I'm sure it's a fun card. I'm not sure though if it is a powerful card. I guess being able to upgrade a $4 cost to a $5 cost can be decent. This is probably an average $4 at best most of time. Though, Fortress loves card.
Wine Merchant: Seems weak and is probably weak most of the time, unless you need that +Buy or extra economy for some reason. Next!
Port: Yes! I do love me some villages. This is solid. I do think Minstrel and Plaza are probably better, but this is still really good because most engines love villages. Yah, this is a power village for sure.
Coin of the Realm: I think this is a card that people will only want to buy 1 or 2 of, but that extra reliability can really help a lot. I think it's solid. I wouldn't spam this like other villages, but the fact that I can just wait to call it is handy.
Relic: This is sort of a non-terminal Milita/Ghost Ship thing. Seems good. Probably not super strong because it's just one card, but the attack can still hurt an opponent. I love how it's a treasure attack.
Treasure Trove: Okay, Dominion has become pretty enginey lately, but I think alt. vp strategies love this card. It even seems pretty decent in big money. This car doesn't excite me though.
Distant Lands: Hmm, I'm not sure. I guess if I have the payload, buying one every turn in an engine can help while an opponent buys Provinces and gets their deck clogged. I think it's solid. But, I also think it takes the right kind of engine, or you have to plan your strategy accordingly. I mean, if your plan is just to mega-turn and pile drive Provinces, this probably isn't worth it. It does seem pretty good though for an alt. vp deck card.
Anyway, my overall impression is that this set looks really fun. Honestly, I'm not a fan of DA's super trash theme. I love trashing. Junk Dealer is awesome. I just felt the tfb cards were really tacky. I mean trashing squire, cultist, hunting grounds, etc. are very situational. And, DA only games feel like you are playing something other than Dominion. So, I know DA is a lot of people's favorites, but it wasn't Mine. Also, it had a lot of oppressive/linear cards like Cultist, Rebuild, and Urchin. This expansion seems much more up my ally. And, I'm really excited about the events. I can't wait to see how they change things. Also, on another note, this expansion feels like Dominion to me.
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One interesting thought that has occurred to me is that you can put a lot of Royal Carriages on your mat and have just a single Bridge out and then Royal Carriage the same Bridge multiple times. This sort of reminds me a lot of NV/Bridge. I have a feeling this can definitely be a thing.
Probably needs a bit more support than that, since Royal Carriage is a $5. NV/Bridge is potent because the components are so cheap. I can definitely see that working though.
But once you've got all the pieces it's super easy to trigger right? If you have 6 Royal Carriages in your Tavern and you play a Bridge with a Copper in hand, you can empty the Provinces. Also, Carriages themselves can help you get to $5 when paired with say a terminal Silver, or even better a Bridge.
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Might as well do this since everyone else is. Thoughts on cardses!
Coin of the Realm: Awesomeness incarnate. One of my favorite villages. I'll take the pile, please.
Page: I can see Treasure Hunter getting ridiculous in Feodum games, and Hero is kind of ballsy, but I really, really dislike what Champion does to games. It's like, as soon as everyone has a Champion, nothing that normally matters in Dominion matters at all. There are no terminals, there are no attacks. Just do whatever the hell you want. Harrumph. Get off my lawn!
Peasant: Much better. Soldier's discard is a better attack than Warrior's trashing, Fugitive is a decent sifter, Disciple is ridiculously awesome, and Teacher is my bro. Let's go put an Action token on Hunting Grounds, dawg.
Ratcatcher: I like it. It's definitely slow, and you definitely need more than one. Certainly not as weak as some people on here would have you believe.
Raze: I like this as well. Finally, a useful trasher that gets rid of itself when it's no longer needed. Though why the hell is this guy ripping up wallpaper in the art?
Amulet: I'll take two.
Caravan Guard: Me likey. I'll take a bunch, and play them all whenever you attack me. Free money this turn!
Dungeon: Definitely better on the second turn.
Gear: Meh. I'll have to play with it some more to see if it's all that good.
Guide: Pick up one (or two, but no more than that) if you don't want a Silver. Save it for when you need it. If you use it at least once, it was worth it. Goes well with Ratcatcher.
Duplicate: It's growing on me. Make sure you get use out of them, and don't just let them sit on your Tavern mat so you can get five Duchies on your last turn.
Magpie: Pretty baller.
Messenger: I suspect this will be sort of an inverse Rebuild - more interesting than its power really deserves.
Miser: Me likey. Hoard my Coppers and get rich! And unlike Moneylender, those Coppers still count towards Gardens.
Port: Delightfully silly and just all kinds of awesome.
Ranger: Get two. Or at least even numbers.
Transmogrify: I suspect this will be middle of the road in terms of power.
Artificer: This one's pretty awesome. Combos nicely with Haunted Woods, which gets you to just the right handsize.
Bridge Troll: Get two. Or three. Or four. Bridge now, bridge later? Sign me up!
Distant Lands: If you're going to go for them, really go for them. Hit that pile.
Giant: FEE FIE FOE FUM I SMELL THE COST OF DOMINION CARDS
Haunted Woods: Better than it at first looks.
Lost City: Honestly, the penalty is overwhelmed by how great this card is.
Relic: Hehehe. I like this one. I particularly like buying a Lost City after playing one.
Royal Carriage: All sorts of awesome. It can never be drawn dead! It can stack on the same card! Can't do one-shots, though. :( BUT IT'S PURPLE :D
Storyteller: Tricksy. Likes engines... that have Treasures in them.
Swamp Hag: Quite nice, but would be better if Adventures didn't have quite so many ways to avoid buying cards.
Treasure Trove: I can appreciate its BM-ness. I certainly like it better than Cache. I really want to play it in a Gardens game.
Wine Merchant: I like this guy. Look at that adorable troll-face. Card's not too shabby, either. Money makes the vorld go around...
Hireling: FOR THE REST OF THE GAME is quite nice.
Alms: Use this for a 4/4 opening! Or better yet, a 5/4 opening! Never buy anything costing less than $4 again! Plays well with cost reducers.
Borrow: Makes openings... interesting. :)
Quest: Niche.
Save: I'll just save that Moat/Treasure Map/Throne Room for next turn. It's like Haven, except optional. And cheaper. Which is better.
Scouting Party: Eh, I'm not really sold on the 3 card discard being mandatory. Maybe if it were "up to..."
Travelling Fair: ONCE A YEAR WE THROW A PARTY HERE IN TOWN
Bonfire: Now burn the Coppers, Ralphie! Burn 'em all!
Expedition: Delicious, if you have an extra buy. Definitely something I'd buy on a Mission turn.
Ferry: Best thing since sliced bread. Open Ferry/Goons. Hell, Ferry/Hireling, then move the Ferry somewhere else. Definitely better on a 3/4 opening, rather than 4/3.
Plan: I'd only use it if a board had no other trashing.
Mission: Handy, if you have useful things to do that aren't buying.
Pilgrimage: Eh, don't think I'm a fan of wasting two buys for this. At least I only have to buy Ranger and Giant once.
Ball: Good against Swamp Hag/Haunted Woods. Mediocre otherwise, methinks.
Raid: Feodum games? Excellent. Big money games? Not too shabby. Engine games? Go away.
Seaway: This seems well-balanced, and something I'd use regularly.
Trade: Bonfire is better, honestly.
Lost Arts: Me likey.
Training: Me likey, though not as much as Lost Arts.
Inheritance: Craziest batshit thing ever made, but seems like a hell of a lot of fun.
Pathfinding: Expensive, but probably worth it if you have a good target. The question is, do you put this on your "Village", or your "Smithy"?
Overall impression:
(http://i.imgur.com/lhjhbB9.gif)
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Haunted Woods: Better than it at first looks.
I knew I picked the right avatar. 8)
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Relic: Hehehe. I like this one. I particularly like buying a Lost City after playing one.
Doesn't that make the Lost City penalty worse, since 4->5 is a bigger difference than 5->6?
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Caravan Guard: I know there is a lot of controversy over this guy. A lot of people think he's weak.
That's not what the "controversy" was about. I don't think anybody has been arguing about the power level, though some people started interpreting the discussion that way. :P
One interesting thought that has occurred to me is that you can put a lot of Royal Carriages on your mat and have just a single Bridge out and then Royal Carriage the same Bridge multiple times. This sort of reminds me a lot of NV/Bridge. I have a feeling this can definitely be a thing.
Probably needs a bit more support than that, since Royal Carriage is a $5. NV/Bridge is potent because the components are so cheap. I can definitely see that working though.
But once you've got all the pieces it's super easy to trigger right? If you have 6 Royal Carriages in your Tavern and you play a Bridge with a Copper in hand, you can empty the Provinces. Also, Carriages themselves can help you get to $5 when paired with say a terminal Silver, or even better a Bridge.
Yeah. I just think that you'll need some support to get Royal Carriages quickly enough. If that's what you're focusing on, you're not really doing much else with your deck. And if you do call on a Carriage, you're going to need time before you get it back into your tavern. I'm thinking you could do with support like Horse Traders (consistent $5 hands) or Duplicate (get RCs more quickly) or Ferry (hitting $3 is very manageable). There are lots, probably. I don't think it can be a two card combo like NV/Bridge is. Then again, maybe it's not too slow just to RC-Bridge early to buy more RCs.
Pilgrimage: Eh, don't think I'm a fan of wasting two buys for this. At least I only have to buy Ranger and Giant once.
2 buys gets you 3 cards of value. If you play it right, it's a net profit.
Relic: Hehehe. I like this one. I particularly like buying a Lost City after playing one.
Doesn't that make the Lost City penalty worse, since 4->5 is a bigger difference than 5->6?
I'm not sure what you mean. You play Relic, everybody takes -1 card token. You buy Lost City, they lose that token. Basically, Relic nullifies the Lost City penalty. Or are you saying that you'd rather your opponents have a 6 card turn and then a 4 card turn rather than two 5 card turns? Keep in mind, the -1 token could also be removed if they play a Smithy or something.
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The more I think about Gear, the more I'm convinced that it's going to be one of the stronger $3 cards. I think the most relevant comparison is actually Courtyard, not Haven. Courtyard lets you look at more, but Gear can match it for final hand size if you don't set aside any cards. Also note that if you set aside 0, Gear gets discarded right away. If you do set aside a card, your next turn is better than it would be with Courtyard because it's a Haven effect, not a topdeck. Moreover, you can set aside a second card if you wish. Consider that if you set aside 2 cards, your next turn is comparable to a Wharf turn!
Also, I just remembered an observation I had about the two traveller lines -- they actually parallel each other in effects.
Page and Peasant both have 2 vanilla bonuses (covering all 4 vanilla bonuses between them).
Treasure Hunter and Soldier both give virtual coin.
Warrior and Fugitive both draw cards.
Hero and Disciple both gain cards (Treasure and Action, respectively).
Champion and Teacher both make your other action cards better.
Also, Soldier and Warrior (different levels of traveller but thematically similar) get better based on other cards in play.
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Watch John Oliver talk about Bridge troll games:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bxcc3SM_KA