Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion Previews => Empires Previews => Dominion: Nocturne Previews => Dominion: Renaissance Previews => Adventures Previews => Topic started by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 09:51:17 am

Title: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 09:51:17 am
Here at last are tokens. They are used some by non-Events too, but today, three more Events. I like to have all of the cards in one preview have the same orientation.

(https://dominionstrategy.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/adventurespreview51.png?w=640&h=326)

Lost Arts produces a +1 Action token, which modifies a pile so that those cards give you personally +1 Action. Each player has their own token. Say you put the token on Smithy; for you, Smithy is +1 Action +3 Cards, but for everyone else, it's still +3 Cards (unless they also put their token on Smithy). For example. So uh there's probably something good you can do with that. That Smithy example doesn't sound half-bad. The token on Smithy affects all of the Smithies you have, and any Smithies you get later; it's just a different card for you. It's like a giant pile of Villages that are always there when you need them for a particular action, for a one-time payment of $6 and a Buy. You are probably wondering, is there also a +1 Buy token, a +1 Card token, a +$1 token? Yes, of course there are those too.

Borrow shows off a minus. There are just -1 Card and -$1; -1 Action and -1 Buy would be no fun. Borrow gives you an extra +$1 this turn, but you'll draw one less card the next time you draw cards, that's what that -1 Card thing is about. You get one less card the next time you'd draw any cards, any which way; for Borrow though that's probably when you draw your next hand. So, four cards that turn instead of five, and well make sure it's worth it. You don't want an endless spiral of debt, where you Borrow turn after turn. -$1 meanwhile (not pictured - well neither one is pictured, but you know what I mean) just reduces how many coins you make by $1 the next time you make any. The minus tokens are used on a few cards each, sometimes to give to yourself and sometimes to make other players take them.

Inheritance is maybe the strangest thing in Adventures. Your Estates turn into another card. Again that's Estates you already have, and any new ones you buy. You put the token on say a Village; now your Estates are cards that cost $2 and are worth 1 VP and are Action-Victory cards and can be played for +1 Card +2 Actions. It is a great feeling when you're staring at your hand and it sucks and then you remember, oh yeah, these Estates are Villages, this hand is awesome. You actually set aside a card with the token, rather than just putting it on a pile, because Dominion has crazy stuff like the Knights from Dark Ages. Lost Arts can give all of the Knights +1 Action for you, but when your Inheritance is Sir Martins, your Estates are all Sir Martin, they aren't any other Knights. And if that's not clear, there's a lengthy FAQ.

That's it for previews, except for the other preview for today, if you haven't seen that one yet. Go see it (if it's not up yet this may take a while). Okay so. That's it for previews. You've seen 20 cards out of 58; there are still 17 more kingdom cards, 14 more Events, 7 more things that Page and Peasant turn into, and 2 mysterious tokens. No doubt someone will post the rest of the set once people have it. We are expecting the set out April 18th and well someone will keep us posted if that changes.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: ehunt on April 03, 2015, 09:53:19 am
amazed
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: SuperHans on April 03, 2015, 09:58:07 am
This changes everything.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 09:59:04 am
Oh man I'd forgotten about Inheritance amazingly enough. Definitely the most bizarre thing to happen to Dominion. (Since Bazaar). I don't think I ever had a chance to use it, but I spent several minutes just assuming that either JSH or Donald was trolling us.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 09:59:48 am
So Province on turn 1 is a thing now. I mean, technically it was as soon as Lost City was revealed, but now it's a thing in 2 player games.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: drsteelhammer on April 03, 2015, 10:05:49 am
These events add another layer of depth to the game. This can only be good for Dominion, really looking forward to these.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: AdamH on April 03, 2015, 10:06:37 am
Inheritance: "Why did I just buy an Estate for $6 on turn 6?!"
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: pubby on April 03, 2015, 10:08:27 am
So if I buy both Inheritance and Lost Arts calling the same action card, do I get +1 action when I play my Estate?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: clb on April 03, 2015, 10:08:58 am
I am guessing that the +1 action token is no longer effective once the supply pile you put it on its empty (a la band of misfits)? Or is it viable for the rest of the game, regardless?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Kirian on April 03, 2015, 10:09:32 am
This changes everything.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 10:09:41 am
So if I buy both Inheritance and Lost Arts calling the same action card, do I get +1 action when I play my Estate?
No. Your Estates aren't from that pile.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 10:09:59 am
I am guessing that the +1 action token is no longer effective once the supply pile you put it on its empty (a la band of misfits)? Or is it viable for the rest of the game, regardless?
The token works even if the pile is empty, and can be put on an empty pile.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 03, 2015, 10:11:57 am
So, Borrow, or the way Donald is talking about it, makes me think that the token will leave your deck when you draw that next card. i.e. you get a 4 card hand 1 time for each use of Borrow. Does this mean that if someone buys a card from the Smithy stack on which I've put my +1 action token for Lost Arts, the token leaves that stack? That would seem to make LA way way worse though. So maybe, especially since nothing says they do, the tokens just always stay there until a card tells you to move them. But in that case, Borrow means you're drawing 4 card hands for the rest of the game, from just one use (of course, I guess after you use it the first time, you can use it every turn after for no penalty). Am I grokking this correctly?

Edit: And re-reading, I can't even get $1 per turn (without something to move my -1 card token somewhere else), just once total ever overall period.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Robz888 on April 03, 2015, 10:12:11 am
That Borrower is like, so psyched to be borrowing.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 03, 2015, 10:13:31 am
So Province on turn 1 is a thing now. I mean, technically it was as soon as Lost City was revealed, but now it's a thing in 2 player games.

How? Borrow only gives you the $+1 once per turn, that doesn't seem enough.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Robz888 on April 03, 2015, 10:14:39 am
So, Borrow, or the way Donald is talking about it, makes me think that the token will leave your deck when you draw that next card. i.e. you get a 4 card hand 1 time for each use of Borrow. Does this mean that if someone buys a card from the Smithy stack on which I've put my +1 action token for Lost Arts, the token leaves that stack? That would seem to make LA way way worse though. So maybe, especially since nothing says they do, the tokens just always stay there until a card tells you to move them. But in that case, Borrow means you're drawing 4 card hands for the rest of the game, from just one use (of course, I guess after you use it the first time, you can use it every turn after for no penalty). Am I grokking this correctly?

I'm having the same issue as WW. My reading of Borrower would make it seem like the penalty kicks in every turn, especially since the Lost Arts token just sits there forever.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: qmech on April 03, 2015, 10:15:10 am
-1 card means that you draw one less card the next time you draw.  After that I assume it goes away.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 10:15:36 am
So Province on turn 1 is a thing now. I mean, technically it was as soon as Lost City was revealed, but now it's a thing in 2 player games.

How? Borrow only gives you the $+1 once per turn, that doesn't seem enough.

Start with 5 Copper hand. Opponent opens Lost City, Draw Copper #6. $1 from Baker token, $1 from Borrower.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Robz888 on April 03, 2015, 10:16:10 am
-1 card means that you draw one less card the next time you draw.  After that I assume it goes away.

But it says "once per turn," not "once."
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: jsh357 on April 03, 2015, 10:16:47 am
Adventures has several design themes, but to me the most significant one is what's seen here: customization and creativity.  We saw it a bit with some of the previous cards, but what this set does so well is make you think of a wacky way to play the game your own way.  Maybe you make your own Smithy variant that gets +Action, maybe you have inherited Conspirators, maybe you come up with some crazy Estate pile out with Messenger.  Adventures opens up the doors to higher level thinking in a big way.

Buy Adventures today!  Mention my name and get a .0000001% discount.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 10:20:28 am
The -1 card token goes on your draw pile, and the time you would draw a card, instead you just take the token off your draw pile. So if you would draw 5 cards, you draw 4 and remove the token. The Action token goes on a supply pile and is not affected by people buying cards from that pile.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Emeric on April 03, 2015, 10:21:18 am
May I move my "+1 action token" buying Lost Arts again later or my token is on my pile for the rest of the game ?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 10:21:28 am
-1 card means that you draw one less card the next time you draw.  After that I assume it goes away.

But it says "once per turn," not "once."

All the events that start with "Once per turn:" mean that you are only allowed to buy that event once per turn. Nothing to do with the effect.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 10:22:21 am
May I move my "+1 action token" buying Lost Arts again later or my token is on my pile for the rest of the game ?

You can buy it again to move it again. Unlike Inheritance, which says "once per game." That one is a permanent decision.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: markusin on April 03, 2015, 10:23:12 am
Borrow is a bit confusing with the -1 card token. So I borrow in one turn and have a 4-card hand next turn. If I borrow again next turn with the 4-card hand, do I have only have a 3-card hand next turn?

Lost Action was sort of expected, but I think it's something we all wanted to see. It's cool how you can rebuy the event to move the token around as needed.

Borrow is a bit stranger, but it's another way to even put openings like the Baker Token, plus you can borrow to not miss that key $5 or $3P on the second shuffle. Sounds good.

Inheritance, wow uh, that's quite the event.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Watno on April 03, 2015, 10:23:30 am
I want this now
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2015, 10:23:53 am
-1 card means that you draw one less card the next time you draw.  After that I assume it goes away.

But it says "once per turn," not "once."

The effect of buying it is to move your token. The token moving off when you draw would be a separate rule.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Dsell on April 03, 2015, 10:25:09 am
If I use Inheritance to set aside a card from a pile with a +1 Action token on it, does the estate get +1 Action? Or more fundamentally, does the additional action come solely from the token or does the token imbue the cards themselves with +1 Action?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: werothegreat on April 03, 2015, 10:25:52 am
So Province on turn 1 is a thing now. I mean, technically it was as soon as Lost City was revealed, but now it's a thing in 2 player games.

How? Borrow only gives you the $+1 once per turn, that doesn't seem enough.

With Borrow and Baker, you're only getting up to $7.

EDIT: Saw Gendo's post now.  So many posts.  Posts.  Posts everywhere.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: LastFootnote on April 03, 2015, 10:26:48 am
Here are the beards we've all been waiting for!
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: jsh357 on April 03, 2015, 10:27:07 am
To clear up some confusion on the -Card token, just think of it like this.  You're putting a "card" on top of your deck that just happens to be a token.  Whenever you draw this card, it's removed.  So Borrow doesn't stack.  There's only one -Card token on the deck ever.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 10:27:35 am
Borrow is a bit confusing with the -1 card token. So I borrow in one turn and have a 4-card hand next turn. If I borrow again next turn with the 4-card hand, do I have only have a 3-card hand next turn?

Lost Action was sort of expected, but I think it's something we all wanted to see. It's cool how you can rebuy the event to move the token around as needed.

Borrow is a bit stranger, but it's another way to even put openings like the Baker Token, plus you can borrow to not miss that key $5 or $3P on the second shuffle. Sounds good.

Inheritance, wow uh, that's quite the event.

The only effect Borrow has is to move the -1 card token to your draw pile (and give you +$1). You only have one -1 card token. The next time you draw, the first card you would draw is replaced with removing the token. It's like you draw the token because that's what's on top, then keep drawing like normal. So you get a 4 card hand if you would have gotten a 5 card hand. Next turn you'll get a 5 card hand unless you Borrow again.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: liopoil on April 03, 2015, 10:28:18 am
I'm pretty sure the -1 card token goes away, as if you drew the token instead of a card. And, I really really love borrow. It's so great. Also combos with watchtower next turn and helps with perfect shuffle luck.

PPE sniped
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: markusin on April 03, 2015, 10:29:28 am
OMG inheritance actually might combo with Scout. Let Scout draw $2 engine components that you start with 3 of, or turn your Estates into Scouts themselves, letting them draw themselves like we always wanted.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Marcory on April 03, 2015, 10:30:02 am
How does the -1 Card token work with Venture and Loan? Do they fail to draw their Treasure?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 10:30:52 am
So, Borrow, or the way Donald is talking about it, makes me think that the token will leave your deck when you draw that next card. i.e. you get a 4 card hand 1 time for each use of Borrow. Does this mean that if someone buys a card from the Smithy stack on which I've put my +1 action token for Lost Arts, the token leaves that stack? That would seem to make LA way way worse though. So maybe, especially since nothing says they do, the tokens just always stay there until a card tells you to move them. But in that case, Borrow means you're drawing 4 card hands for the rest of the game, from just one use (of course, I guess after you use it the first time, you can use it every turn after for no penalty). Am I grokking this correctly?

Edit: And re-reading, I can't even get $1 per turn (without something to move my -1 card token somewhere else), just once total ever overall period.
"Once per turn" means you can only buy Borrow once per turn. When you do buy it, you get +1 Buy, and if your -1 Card token isn't on your deck, put it there and get +$1.

When you go to draw cards, if your -1 Card token is on your deck, you remove it in place of one of the draws.

The +1 Action token does not get removed by getting cards from the pile it's on.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: jsh357 on April 03, 2015, 10:31:14 am
How does the -1 Card token work with Venture and Loan? Do they fail to draw their Treasure?

No, they draw the token away and then just keep going.  So they are actually great counters if you have one from some means other than Borrow.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: werothegreat on April 03, 2015, 10:32:33 am
How does the -1 Card token work with Venture and Loan? Do they fail to draw their Treasure?

Digging cards draw/reveal until something specific happens, rather than drawing/revealing a set number of cards.  They would remove the token, and continue as usual.

What I'm curious about is Doctor; does it only reveal two cards after removing the token?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: TheOthin on April 03, 2015, 10:33:48 am
So Province on turn 1 is a thing now. I mean, technically it was as soon as Lost City was revealed, but now it's a thing in 2 player games.

How? Borrow only gives you the $+1 once per turn, that doesn't seem enough.

With Borrow and Baker, you're only getting up to $7.
Lost City adds a sixth Copper.

But even in solitaire, we can open $7 now... KC, or even Inheritance. But for 3- turn empty Supply I think the way to go is Stonemason/Inn/Catacombs. I'm not sure it's enough with the draw penalty though...
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 10:35:17 am
The -1 card token goes on your draw pile, and the time you would draw a card, instead you just take the token off your draw pile. So if you would draw 5 cards, you draw 4 and remove the token. The Action token goes on a supply pile and is not affected by people buying cards from that pile.
And in fact the -1 Card token has text on it, you don't just need to consult the rulebook there. It says something like "When you would draw a card, remove this instead."
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Emeric on April 03, 2015, 10:36:21 am
If I put my "estate token" on scout, I will take lot of scouts in hand when I am playing scout. Yeah ! Ultimate Scout combo !
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Gveoniz on April 03, 2015, 10:37:34 am
What happen when you put estate token on Sir Martin? (And ruins)?
What happen when the pile of knight or ruins run out?


Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: werothegreat on April 03, 2015, 10:37:53 am
The -1 card token goes on your draw pile, and the time you would draw a card, instead you just take the token off your draw pile. So if you would draw 5 cards, you draw 4 and remove the token. The Action token goes on a supply pile and is not affected by people buying cards from that pile.
And in fact the -1 Card token has text on it, you don't just need to consult the rulebook there. It says something like "When you would draw a card, remove this instead."

What about revealing/looking at cards?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Emeric on April 03, 2015, 10:39:15 am
If I put my "estate token" on Baron...
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 10:40:03 am
If I use Inheritance to set aside a card from a pile with a +1 Action token on it, does the estate get +1 Action? Or more fundamentally, does the additional action come solely from the token or does the token imbue the cards themselves with +1 Action?
No, Lost Arts refers to the pile the cards were from. Estates are from the Estates pile (even your starting ones). The +1 Action is a thing that triggers when playing a card from the pile with the token on it.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: monomandan on April 03, 2015, 10:40:17 am
I'm guessing that I could take 4 highways (or maybe some bridges) to collect my inheritance of three princely estates? Because that would be a huge move- not only get your estates out of your deck, but get 3 permanent actions as well.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Heisenberg on April 03, 2015, 10:40:58 am
Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 10:41:35 am
How does the -1 Card token work with Venture and Loan? Do they fail to draw their Treasure?
The token only affects drawing, with the additional caveat that Envoy is misworded and does not draw those cards. So Venture for example works normally, and leaves the token on your deck (or, to handle it physically, you take the token off and then put it back, but in game terms it never left).
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: TheOthin on April 03, 2015, 10:42:22 am
Wait actually you could open Inheritance/Watchtower, turn your Estates into Processions, and I think that'd be enough?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: bedlam on April 03, 2015, 10:43:20 am
The -1 card token goes on your draw pile, and the time you would draw a card, instead you just take the token off your draw pile. So if you would draw 5 cards, you draw 4 and remove the token. The Action token goes on a supply pile and is not affected by people buying cards from that pile.
And in fact the -1 Card token has text on it, you don't just need to consult the rulebook there. It says something like "When you would draw a card, remove this instead."

What about revealing/looking at cards?

The only time you would place that token on your deck is when you buy the event at the end of your turn, then it is removed immediately when you draw your cards for your next hand, so you would never have to reveal cards while the token is on your deck right?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: mborda on April 03, 2015, 10:43:27 am
I am guessing that the +1 action token is no longer effective once the supply pile you put it on its empty (a la band of misfits)? Or is it viable for the rest of the game, regardless?

I suppose it is still effective, as you set aside the card (and also it would prevent that card to be bought and count towards emptying the pile).

That's why it prevents setting aside Victory cards. If not, you could set aside the last Province for $7 if you want to trigger the end of the game.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 03, 2015, 10:43:46 am
The -1 card token goes on your draw pile, and the time you would draw a card, instead you just take the token off your draw pile. So if you would draw 5 cards, you draw 4 and remove the token. The Action token goes on a supply pile and is not affected by people buying cards from that pile.

I don't get that from the cards themselves though. Is the difference because it's on my deck rather than a supply pile, or is it because it's the -1 card token rather than the +1 action? Is it just 'something you need to know'?

PPE: I don't think this will get posted within half an hour between frequent replies and forum slowness...

PPE2: Hey, the tokens have text? That probably solves everything.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: bedlam on April 03, 2015, 10:44:38 am
So are the tokens part of the base setup now, or are they only in use when there is an event that calls for any specific token?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 10:45:11 am
What happen when you put estate token on Sir Martin? (And ruins)?
What happen when the pile of knight or ruins run out?
You set aside the card with the token. So Inheritance on Sir Martin makes your Estates into Sir Martins and that's that; the other Knights aren't involved. Inheritance on Ruined Market makes your Estates produce +1 Buy, etc.

It doesn't matter what happens to the pile you got the card you Inheritanced. Inheritance works on a card not on a pile, and that card is set aside and in front of you. Which was necessary to handle the Knights and Ruins.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: werothegreat on April 03, 2015, 10:47:51 am
So if I have a -1 Card token on my deck and play a Mystic, it'll reveal that -1 Card token, or the card under it?  If it's the latter, that means it removes the token instead of drawing a correctly guessed card?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: mborda on April 03, 2015, 10:48:54 am
I am guessing that the +1 action token is no longer effective once the supply pile you put it on its empty (a la band of misfits)? Or is it viable for the rest of the game, regardless?
The token works even if the pile is empty, and can be put on an empty pile.

So, if the pile is empty, and we can't set aside the card, we get the benefit anyway?  ???
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 10:49:28 am
I am guessing that the +1 action token is no longer effective once the supply pile you put it on its empty (a la band of misfits)? Or is it viable for the rest of the game, regardless?

I suppose it is still effective, as you set aside the card (and also it would prevent that card to be bought and count towards emptying the pile).

That's why it prevents setting aside Victory cards. If not, you could set aside the last Province for $7 if you want to trigger the end of the game.
Lost Arts does not set aside a card; Inheritance does.

Inheritance doesn't allow Victory cards because they were too automatic. It's also confusing.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 10:50:33 am
So are the tokens part of the base setup now, or are they only in use when there is an event that calls for any specific token?
The tokens are only used when they're used! I'm not sure what you're thinking of doing with them when nothing uses them.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: LastFootnote on April 03, 2015, 10:50:40 am
So if I have a -1 Card token on my deck and play a Mystic, it'll reveal that -1 Card token, or the card under it?  If it's the latter, that means it removes the token instead of drawing a correctly guessed card?

The -1 Card token does not affect Mystic at all. The token stays on your deck regardless of whether you guessed right.

The -1 Card token only affects three things:

- When a card says +X Cards
- When a card uses the word "draw" (except Envoy, which shouldn't use "draw" but does)
- When you draw your new hand at the end of a turn

Everything else skips past the token and the token stays on your deck.

So for instance, let's say your token is on your deck and you play Catacombs.

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/cd/Catacombs.jpg)

You still look at 3 cards. If you choose to put them into your hand, then that's the end and the token stays. If you discard them and get +3 Cards, you'd remove the token and draw 2 cards.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: managore on April 03, 2015, 10:51:22 am
I am guessing that the +1 action token is no longer effective once the supply pile you put it on its empty (a la band of misfits)? Or is it viable for the rest of the game, regardless?
The token works even if the pile is empty, and can be put on an empty pile.

So, if the pile is empty, and we can't set aside the card, we get the benefit anyway?  ???

You set aside cards with estate tokens, not action tokens.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: jonts26 on April 03, 2015, 10:51:38 am
One nice thing about borrow is it can help mitigate opening split luck with a critical $5. I mean, you'd still rather not have to gimp your next turn for that mountebank but it's better than not getting one at all.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 10:52:34 am
So if I have a -1 Card token on my deck and play a Mystic, it'll reveal that -1 Card token, or the card under it?  If it's the latter, that means it removes the token instead of drawing a correctly guessed card?
The token isn't a card so it isn't revealed when revealing cards. Revealing a card doesn't remove the token. Mystic doesn't draw a card, it puts a card into your hand. It's just not affected by the token other than managing it physically.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: liopoil on April 03, 2015, 10:54:17 am
Wait actually you could open Inheritance/Watchtower, turn your Estates into Processions, and I think that'd be enough?
Very very close to enough, but I don't think you can get the fortress in hand quickly enough. However, I have an idea... let's move this to the empty supply in 3 turns thread.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: mborda on April 03, 2015, 10:57:57 am
I am guessing that the +1 action token is no longer effective once the supply pile you put it on its empty (a la band of misfits)? Or is it viable for the rest of the game, regardless?

I suppose it is still effective, as you set aside the card (and also it would prevent that card to be bought and count towards emptying the pile).

That's why it prevents setting aside Victory cards. If not, you could set aside the last Province for $7 if you want to trigger the end of the game.
Lost Arts does not set aside a card; Inheritance does.

Inheritance doesn't allow Victory cards because they were too automatic. It's also confusing.


Sorry, my mistake!!! :)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: AJD on April 03, 2015, 10:59:12 am
I observe that Estates Inherit the "abilities and types" of other cards, but not their names or costs. So if my Estates Inherit, say, Ironmongering, then I infer Procession+Estate would gain me a $3, as would Ironmonger + Estate + Horn of Plenty?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 10:59:20 am
The -1 card token goes on your draw pile, and the time you would draw a card, instead you just take the token off your draw pile. So if you would draw 5 cards, you draw 4 and remove the token. The Action token goes on a supply pile and is not affected by people buying cards from that pile.
And in fact the -1 Card token has text on it, you don't just need to consult the rulebook there. It says something like "When you would draw a card, remove this instead."

What about revealing/looking at cards?

The only time you would place that token on your deck is when you buy the event at the end of your turn, then it is removed immediately when you draw your cards for your next hand, so you would never have to reveal cards while the token is on your deck right?

You are assuming that there aren't other cards or events which refer to the token.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: jonts26 on April 03, 2015, 11:04:51 am
The -1 card token goes on your draw pile, and the time you would draw a card, instead you just take the token off your draw pile. So if you would draw 5 cards, you draw 4 and remove the token. The Action token goes on a supply pile and is not affected by people buying cards from that pile.
And in fact the -1 Card token has text on it, you don't just need to consult the rulebook there. It says something like "When you would draw a card, remove this instead."

What about revealing/looking at cards?

The only time you would place that token on your deck is when you buy the event at the end of your turn, then it is removed immediately when you draw your cards for your next hand, so you would never have to reveal cards while the token is on your deck right?

You are assuming that there aren't other cards or events which refer to the token.

And Donald explicitly said minus tokens are used with multiple cards.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 11:05:00 am
So if I have a -1 Card token on my deck and play a Mystic, it'll reveal that -1 Card token, or the card under it?  If it's the latter, that means it removes the token instead of drawing a correctly guessed card?

The -1 Card token does not affect Mystic at all. The token stays on your deck regardless of whether you guessed right.

The -1 Card token only affects three things:

- When a card says +X Cards
- When a card uses the word "draw" (except Envoy, which shouldn't use "draw" but does)
- When you draw your new hand at the end of a turn

Everything else skips past the token and the token stays on your deck.

So for instance, let's say your token is on your deck and you play Catacombs.

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/cd/Catacombs.jpg)

You still look at 3 cards. If you choose to put them into your hand, then that's the end and the token stays. If you discard them and get +3 Cards, you'd remove the token and draw 2 cards.

It now matters which order you put the cards back in for Oracle!!
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: liopoil on April 03, 2015, 11:11:30 am
It now matters which order you put the cards back in for Oracle!!
Dude, woah.... Donald is amazing... because if he hadn't made us choose the order every time, I would be very sad when this happened.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: werothegreat on April 03, 2015, 11:13:29 am
Erm, these feel really convoluted. Just how many distinct tokens are we actually going to be getting with this expansion?

10.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 03, 2015, 11:15:17 am
As awesome as I think the previews have been so far, Inheritance was the first time I actually sat back and just said, "Wow."
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Sidsel on April 03, 2015, 11:20:54 am
I was at "Shut up and take my money!" at the first preview. Now I'm more at "Continue talking! (And take my money.)"

I can't wait to actually play with this stuff.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: LastFootnote on April 03, 2015, 11:22:02 am
As awesome as I think the previews have been so far, Inheritance was the first time I actually sat back and just said, "Wow."

I love Inheritance so much. Probably my favorite Event, though there's tough competition there. The only thing about it is that you have to remember that your Estates aren't just dead cards. That's an adjustment for sure. When Making Fun implements it, I would love if it did a Band of Misfits-style thing, where it replaced the types and text of your Estates to remind you what they do. That's a tall order, though. And if they wanted to replace the border, some borders would have more than two colors. For instance, inherited Moats would probably be White/Blue/Green.

And yes, if you inherit a Reaction card, your Estates can all use the reaction part. It's pretty sweet.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Sidsel on April 03, 2015, 11:31:35 am
Inheritance question: The card I set aside - do I take it from the supply, from my hand, from my deck..? Must I buy it first?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Seprix on April 03, 2015, 11:32:29 am
My god, Borrow is UGLY.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 03, 2015, 11:33:07 am
Inheritance question: The card I set aside - do I take it from the supply, from my hand, from my deck..? Must I buy it first?

"Set aside a non-Victory Action card from the Supply..."
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: chipperMDW on April 03, 2015, 11:33:37 am
The token only affects drawing, with the additional caveat that Envoy is misworded and does not draw those cards.
How about Library?  Is it serious about the word "draw"?  It's a weird kind of drawing that doesn't happen anywhere else, so I always thought of it as more like: "look at a card, maybe put it into your hand, maybe do something else," since that's how everything else does stuff like that.  Like, maybe Library was released too early to have gotten that wording or something.

But now I'm guessing that, since it does say "draw" and you didn't mention it just now, it's probably really and truly drawing, and it's just weird.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Gherald on April 03, 2015, 11:34:27 am
So Province on turn 1 is a thing now. I mean, technically it was as soon as Lost City was revealed, but now it's a thing in 2 player games.
I'm more impressed by Inheritance on turn 1 being a thing.  As in oh look, I drew a copper and 3 Ironmongers on turn 2.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: jonts26 on April 03, 2015, 11:34:34 am
Inheritance question: The card I set aside - do I take it from the supply, from my hand, from my deck..? Must I buy it first?

Just take it from the supply like the event says. You don't buy it separately.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: liopoil on April 03, 2015, 11:35:16 am
Erm, these feel really convoluted. Just how many distinct tokens are we actually going to be getting with this expansion?

10.
We have:

+1 coin/action/buy/card
-1 card/coin
Estate token

That means there are 3 more. But Donald said there are only two more? Maybe the last preview today will reveal one of them.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: jsh357 on April 03, 2015, 11:37:00 am
My god, Borrow is UGLY.

Yeah, Adventures had to outdo Candlestick Maker somewhere, I guess.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: LastFootnote on April 03, 2015, 11:39:34 am
The token only affects drawing, with the additional caveat that Envoy is misworded and does not draw those cards.
How about Library?  Is it serious about the word "draw"?  It's a weird kind of drawing that doesn't happen anywhere else, so I always thought of it as more like: "look at a card, maybe put it into your hand, maybe do something else," since that's how everything else does stuff like that.  Like, maybe Library it was released too early to have gotten that wording or something.

But now I'm guessing that, since it does say "draw" and you didn't mention it just now, it's probably really and truly drawing, and it's just weird.

Luckily, I don't think there's any confusion there. The token is not an Action card, so it just gets "drawn", a.k.a. removed, and then you go on with the rest of Library.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: liopoil on April 03, 2015, 11:44:10 am
Wait actually you could open Inheritance/Watchtower, turn your Estates into Processions, and I think that'd be enough?
Very very close to enough, but I don't think you can get the fortress in hand quickly enough. However, I have an idea... let's move this to the empty supply in 3 turns thread.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8448.msg478811
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: chipperMDW on April 03, 2015, 11:45:39 am
The token only affects drawing, with the additional caveat that Envoy is misworded and does not draw those cards.
How about Library?  Is it serious about the word "draw"?  It's a weird kind of drawing that doesn't happen anywhere else, so I always thought of it as more like: "look at a card, maybe put it into your hand, maybe do something else," since that's how everything else does stuff like that.  Like, maybe Library it was released too early to have gotten that wording or something.

But now I'm guessing that, since it does say "draw" and you didn't mention it just now, it's probably really and truly drawing, and it's just weird.

Luckily, I don't think there's any confusion there. The token is not an Action card, so it just gets "drawn", a.k.a. removed, and then you go on with the rest of Library.
Well, if Library is really drawing, then it works like all the other draw-up-to-X cards and effectively counters the token. If it's not (for whatever reason), then it leaves the token alone.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 03, 2015, 11:45:58 am
Thoughts:

Lost Arts:
This seems really, really powerful. Smithy seems perhaps the best, because Double-Lab is so very strong, but really there are lots of cheap actions which this will be very good on. Pawn becomes Village-or-Peddler-or... yeah, that's pretty good. Pearl Diver even becomes Village-with-upside. Any Moat-like card turns into Lab-plus. Terminal silvers are much more meh, but even there, this is ok. Spam Monuments or Swindlers or dare I say Goonseseses? Yes, please, at least if I couldn't otherwise. Really it seems to me like in games with this, very often you will race to accomplish: Setting this, driving the very-undercosted pile you've set it to, maybe trying to contest the pile your opponent has set. +Buy will be big for that pile-drive, especially setting it on a cheap thing, which often I guess you should. And then we're looking at pretty quick 3-piles. It's worse the more expensive the action you want to hit is, but well, it's not bad on expensive things exactly. It seems like usually it will totally shift that game around. I suppose turning Village into Super-Village isn't the hottest sometimes, but even that can be very nice sometimes.

Borrow: In a vacuum, this doesn't seem great, since a card is usually better than the money. On the other hand, now is more important than later. Obviously if I am ending the game, the next turn won't matter. If I am getting hit with a discard attack anyway, this is somewhat mitigated, but not entirely - the ability to look a card deeper is a real thing for sure. Against a sure Minion attack, this is pretty free, and against a sure Pillage attack, it's even a benefit. Also, you could just use this to make sure you don't trigger a shuffle at some point, if you've tracked your deck very well. And of course, sometimes that extra $ is really worth it, because e.g. 5 is so much better than 4. So the flexibility on this will make it reasonably powerful, even if on average the effect is really not worth it. Really not a gamebreaker, but quite nice utility.

Inheritance: Hehe, I had the idea of turning victory cards into... I think it was just copper, quite a while back. This is surely a better implementation. 7 is a lot, so this will be somewhat hit-and-miss. I mean, if you can trash the estates away somewhat efficiently, that's got to usually be better. If you can't, though, especially if you can spike this early, it will be pretty nice. It gets three junk out of your deck in one fell swoop, plus gives you an efficiently-costed, points-laden pile of something. All of this assuming, of course, there's a somewhat spammable pile of cheap actions which isn't already empty.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: liopoil on April 03, 2015, 11:53:34 am
Here's why I like borrow so much: It reduces luck. A lot of time in dominion, you get screwed because you hit 4/4 second shuffle on a mountebank board, or 2P on a familiar board, or 7 in the endgame. Borrow softens the blow a ton. It's a lot like coin tokens, except you always have them. It gives you just one more choice every turn of the game, which I think is great. Usually you wont take it, but it is important that you do take it when you need to. I think the choice is especially interesting during the first 4 turns of the game. It's a lot like baker, and I like baker. It's even better though, because its available every single turn, without having to actually buy baker.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2015, 12:07:43 pm
Oh, hey. I bet this was brought up yesterday, but Bridge and Highway don't reduce Event costs.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: werothegreat on April 03, 2015, 12:08:38 pm
Bear in mind that you only have one +1 Action token; you can only have it on one card pile at a time.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Throwaway_bicycling on April 03, 2015, 12:38:42 pm

Inheritance is maybe the strangest thing in Adventures. Your Estates turn into another card. Again that's Estates you already have, and any new ones you buy. You put the token on say a Village; now your Estates are cards that cost $2 and are worth 1 VP and are Action-Victory cards and can be played for +1 Card +2 Actions. It is a great feeling when you're staring at your hand and it sucks and then you remember, oh yeah, these Estates are Villages, this hand is awesome. You actually set aside a card with the token, rather than just putting it on a pile, because Dominion has crazy stuff like the Knights from Dark Ages. Lost Arts can give all of the Knights +1 Action for you, but when your Inheritance is Sir Martins, your Estates are all Sir Martin, they aren't any other Knights. And if that's not clear, there's a lengthy FAQ.


So if "Your Estates turn into another card" does that mean they literally inherit the card text? So your Sir Martin Estates attack like a Knight, but if you are attacked by a Knight, Sir Martin the Green escapes because he only costs $2?

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2015, 12:41:51 pm

Inheritance is maybe the strangest thing in Adventures. Your Estates turn into another card. Again that's Estates you already have, and any new ones you buy. You put the token on say a Village; now your Estates are cards that cost $2 and are worth 1 VP and are Action-Victory cards and can be played for +1 Card +2 Actions. It is a great feeling when you're staring at your hand and it sucks and then you remember, oh yeah, these Estates are Villages, this hand is awesome. You actually set aside a card with the token, rather than just putting it on a pile, because Dominion has crazy stuff like the Knights from Dark Ages. Lost Arts can give all of the Knights +1 Action for you, but when your Inheritance is Sir Martins, your Estates are all Sir Martin, they aren't any other Knights. And if that's not clear, there's a lengthy FAQ.


So if "Your Estates turn into another card" does that mean they literally inherit the card text? So your Sir Martin Estates attack like a Knight, but if you are attacked by a Knight, Sir Martin the Green escapes because he only costs $2?

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?

It says they gain the "Type", so it would count as Knights.  But does it also gain the card title?  (You would need that for Treasure Map.)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 03, 2015, 12:44:44 pm
So I am basically 5 for 5 on predictions this week.  I called almost all of this, right when it was revealed that the tokens would come in player colours.

Quote
This is the 9th addition to the game of Dominion. It has 400 cards, 6 mats, and 60 tokens. There are 30 new Kingdom cards, including the return of Duration cards that do things on future turns, plus Reserve cards that can be saved for the right moment. There are also 20 Event cards that give you something to buy besides cards, including tokens that modify cards.

My thought is mainly about that last line -- tokens that modify cards, which are things you can buy via events.  I figured that there would be a common supply of tokens which would modify cards for all players, but the recent reveal that there are player colours makes it even more compelling.

I don't know how Events will be incorporated.  Maybe they will just be things chosen at the start of the game, as you described in the OP.  Maybe there will be specific cards that trigger events. 

Anyway, I figure there will be an event that lets players buy "Progress Tokens" (arbitrary name here).  You put the token on a card in the supply (maybe restricted to action cards, maybe not).  Copies of cards have the bonuses associated with tokens on their supply pile.  I suppose they should only last while the card is still in the supply, but maybe you could keep the effects and trust that people can remember, or you could use the randomizers maybe.

In my original idea, I also figured that the cost of the cards should increase by $1 for each token on them.  But with player colours, it's simpler.  You pay the upfront cost for the token and the benefit is only for you.  If it's only a blue token on the card, only the blue player gets that bonus.

There are 10 tokens for each player.  So what could the effects be?  The vanilla bonuses are 4 obvious ones.  Another obvious one is a token that makes each copy of the card worth 1VP more.  You could also have a simple cost reduction token.  An interesting bonus would be a cost increase, which is only a bonus in combination with TfB (or Border Village).  Maybe a token could add "trash a card" as an effect.  Maybe a token could transform a card into a Reserve card, whatever that means.  A token could make the card untrashable like Fortress.  Or a token could give a card the Moat reaction.  There are many possibilities, though they should be kept simple.

For clarity -- the effects of tokens on a card should be resolved before you resolve the actual card text, for the tokens that give it bonuses on play.  This is just to make it easier to track things (think tokens on KC).

These token shenanigans need not be restricted to event cards.  For example, here's one idea:

[Card idea redacted because Donald doesn't want to see fan cards, man there is a forum for that.  But you can see what my idea was if you click through the link on the quote title!]
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: werothegreat on April 03, 2015, 12:44:59 pm

Inheritance is maybe the strangest thing in Adventures. Your Estates turn into another card. Again that's Estates you already have, and any new ones you buy. You put the token on say a Village; now your Estates are cards that cost $2 and are worth 1 VP and are Action-Victory cards and can be played for +1 Card +2 Actions. It is a great feeling when you're staring at your hand and it sucks and then you remember, oh yeah, these Estates are Villages, this hand is awesome. You actually set aside a card with the token, rather than just putting it on a pile, because Dominion has crazy stuff like the Knights from Dark Ages. Lost Arts can give all of the Knights +1 Action for you, but when your Inheritance is Sir Martins, your Estates are all Sir Martin, they aren't any other Knights. And if that's not clear, there's a lengthy FAQ.


So if "Your Estates turn into another card" does that mean they literally inherit the card text? So your Sir Martin Estates attack like a Knight, but if you are attacked by a Knight, Sir Martin the Green escapes because he only costs $2?

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?

It says they gain the "Type", so it would count as Knights.  But does it also gain the card title?  (You would need that for Treasure Map.)

I would think not - it just says abilities and types.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 03, 2015, 12:45:49 pm
But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?

I don't think Treasure Map works, since the Estates don't inherit the name of the card, only the abilities and types (is abilities well-defined? Is "can be trashed by a/nother Treasure Map" an ability of Treasure Map for this purpose? I don't think so). I'd say the one you're trashing from your hand must be an actual Map.

Actually, I don't think "If you trashed two Treasure Maps" is satisfied even by a Map and an Estate, since you only trashed one card with the name "Treasure Map". So maybe it doesn't work at all.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Gveoniz on April 03, 2015, 12:47:14 pm
So, one can't get +3 action with Estate Crossroad because playing an estate is not "your first time you play a crossroad"?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 12:47:41 pm
So if "Your Estates turn into another card" does that mean they literally inherit the card text? So your Sir Martin Estates attack like a Knight, but if you are attacked by a Knight, Sir Martin the Green escapes because he only costs $2?

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?
"Your Estates turn into another card" is a convenient inaccurate shorthand. Your Estates gain the abilities and types of the card. They don't copy anything else, including cost, or name, or "what pile was that from."

So Sir Martin Estates have the types of Sir Martin, and give +2 Buys and attack like he does. They can die to other Knights if they hit one, but other Knights attacking skip over them since they cost $2.

Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 03, 2015, 12:48:06 pm
So, one can't get +3 action with Estate Crossroad because playing an estate is not "your first time you play a crossroad"?

Hmm. I think you're right.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 03, 2015, 12:49:33 pm
Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: liopoil on April 03, 2015, 12:52:06 pm
It's well known that big money has gotten worse and worse as more expansions come out, but now big money feels like it will be absurdly rare in any game with just a couple adventures cards in it. So many engine-in-a-box cards here.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 12:52:31 pm
So, one can't get +3 action with Estate Crossroad because playing an estate is not "your first time you play a crossroad"?
Correct.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 03, 2015, 12:53:01 pm
Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?

If you play TMap, you can't trash an Estate from your hand.  If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 12:53:18 pm
Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?
Treasure Map does not let you trash Estates.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 03, 2015, 12:54:06 pm
Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?

If you play TMap, you can't trash an Estate from your hand.  If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Any other self-referential instances that will cause problems?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: werothegreat on April 03, 2015, 12:54:46 pm
Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?
Treasure Map does not let you trash Estates.

But an Estate Map can trash a Treasure Map?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 03, 2015, 12:55:35 pm
At first glance, positive tokens like the one from Lost Arts sound like they should work well with Messenger.  Put the token on a thing, use Messenger to gain that thing.  Everybody else gets a copy but your copy is better than theirs.

But I guess it wouldn't actually work out so well because you'll be emptying the pile of buffed things you want to buy.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Willvon on April 03, 2015, 12:57:51 pm
Thoughts:

Lost Arts:
I suppose turning Village into Super-Village isn't the hottest sometimes, but even that can be very nice sometimes.

This could really increase the value of Diadem as a prize, couldn't it?  It's more often the forgotten stepchild in games we play that include Tournament.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2015, 12:57:59 pm
So I am basically 5 for 5 on predictions this week.  I called almost all of this, right when it was revealed that the tokens would come in player colours.
...

Man, there's a thread for tooting your own horn!
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2015, 12:58:47 pm
Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?
Treasure Map does not let you trash Estates.

But an Estate Map can trash a Treasure Map?

Yeah.  It gains the abilities, which is to trash this and a (different) Treasure Map from your hand.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2015, 01:00:39 pm
Why non-Victory Actions?  Because of potential ambiguity with how many VPs its worth?  Or because the idea is to turn a Victory into an Action-Victory and, well, those are already Action-Victories?

Also, why not allow Treasures?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Moneymodel on April 03, 2015, 01:01:48 pm
Man, no WONDER they're revamping the online platform with these crazy things.

Inheritance is blowing my mind.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: AJD on April 03, 2015, 01:02:17 pm
Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?

If you play TMap, you can't trash an Estate from your hand.  If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Any other self-referential instances that will cause problems?

Hmm: Cult Estates can allow you to play Cultists, but not vice versa. You can trash Rat Estates with Rats to replace them with other Rats.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Willvon on April 03, 2015, 01:03:58 pm
Are there six sets of tokens in case you play a six-person game?  Does each set have a different color to differentiate them?

Edit: I just saw some mention a reference to player colors. I guess I missed that earlier.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: matste on April 03, 2015, 01:05:51 pm
Wow Inheritance is so crazy, but still looks balanced.

Can I play Band of Misfits as an Estate? If so, with Bridge in the kingdom, is it possible for Estate to turn into Band of Misfited Estates and break MakingFun servers through an infinite loop?

Inheriting Sir Martin can be super strong. It gives you Knights your opponent can not attack with his own Knights. And you can gain 8 copies of it.

Also, how do improved Estates interact with Tribute?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Gveoniz on April 03, 2015, 01:06:18 pm
Why non-Victory Actions?  Because of potential ambiguity with how many VPs its worth?  Or because the idea is to turn a Victory into an Action-Victory and, well, those are already Action-Victories?

Also, why not allow Treasures?

Because Fool's gold?

Edit:
Only think of it because of this:
(http://i.imgur.com/ZajqyRV.jpg)

So... wait, it's always worth $4 then, right? That's ridiculously OP for $2, is this meant to be a joke?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 03, 2015, 01:06:29 pm
Are there six sets of tokens in case you play a six-person game?  Does each set have a different color to differentiate them?

There are 60 tokens, presumably 10 tokens in each of 6 different colours.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 03, 2015, 01:09:40 pm
Can I play Band of Misfits as an Estate? If so, with Bridge in the kingdom, is it possible for Estate to turn into Band of Misfited Estates and break MakingFun servers through an infinite loop?

No. Using inheritance doesn't effect supply piles, so the Estate pile is still simply Estates and so cannot be used by BoM.

Quote
Also, how do improved Estates interact with Tribute?

The same as Great Hall etc (+2 cards, +2 actions if at least one revealed card is an Estate, and that player's Estates are improved).
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 01:11:11 pm
Why non-Victory Actions?  Because of potential ambiguity with how many VPs its worth?  Or because the idea is to turn a Victory into an Action-Victory and, well, those are already Action-Victories?

Also, why not allow Treasures?
Inheriting a Victory card is confusing but also too automatic. It's a big VP windfall so of course you do it.

Inheriting treasures was possible for a while. It's wordier and you don't get much extra from being able to do it.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2015, 01:11:46 pm
Why non-Victory Actions?  Because of potential ambiguity with how many VPs its worth?  Or because the idea is to turn a Victory into an Action-Victory and, well, those are already Action-Victories?

Also, why not allow Treasures?

Because Fool's gold?

Oh, right, good call.  I was thinking it would work the other way with Fool's Gold and not be giving ubermoney.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 03, 2015, 01:12:15 pm
Wow Inheritance is so crazy, but still looks balanced.

Can I play Band of Misfits as an Estate? If so, with Bridge in the kingdom, is it possible for Estate to turn into Band of Misfited Estates and break MakingFun servers through an infinite loop?

Inheriting Sir Martin can be super strong. It gives you Knights your opponent can not attack with his own Knights. And you can gain 8 copies of it.

Also, how do improved Estates interact with Tribute?

BoM thing probably doesn't work.  Inheritance says your Estates gain the abilities and type, but Estates in the Supply are not yours.  They're just regular Estates.

Sir Estate will still fall if it attacks another Knight.

Suppose you use Inheritance for Village and the other player (in a 2p game) has not used Inheritance.  When you play Tribute and flip up their Estates, they are still just regular VP cards.  If your opponent plays Tribute and flips your Estates, they are Action/Victory and give them the corresponding bonuses.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2015, 01:13:34 pm
Why non-Victory Actions?  Because of potential ambiguity with how many VPs its worth?  Or because the idea is to turn a Victory into an Action-Victory and, well, those are already Action-Victories?

Also, why not allow Treasures?
Inheriting a Victory card is confusing but also too automatic. It's a big VP windfall so of course you do it.

Inheriting treasures was possible for a while. It's wordier and you don't get much extra from being able to do it.

Well I didn't mean all Victories, but allowing all Actions (currently) only allows Nobles, Island, Great Halls.. is that that huge?  Yeah, well, I guess it can double the VP of Estates or turn them into Duchies.  Alright.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 03, 2015, 01:14:35 pm
What happens when you put your +1 Action token (or other positive token) on Band of Misfits?  BoM sort of transforms as you are playing it, so it will always be something else when played (unless there is no valid target).  I'm guessing you still get the token bonus first because, whatever BoM becomes, it is still from the BoM pile.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: AdamH on April 03, 2015, 01:17:44 pm
So, stupid question, let's say I Inherit Death Cart, then buy an Estate. Do I get two Ruins? I was asked this and I said no because the Estate isn't "yours" until after you gain it, so on-gain effects don't trigger (Nomad Camp, Embassy, BV, Noble Brigand, that kind of thing) but I tried to go looking for that ruling and I couldn't find anything definitive. What was that ruling again?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 03, 2015, 01:19:36 pm
Ironworks on an inherited Estate will give you the extra bonuses, right?

I play Ironworks, choosing Estate.  It is now my Estate, so now has extra types granted by Inheritance.  I would get +1 Card, +1 Action.

What if my Estates inherited Great Hall?  Inheritance says that it gains the types of the chosen card, so should Estate gain Victory type as well?  Does Estate become Action-Victory-Victory?  And if so, would Ironworks for Estate grant +2 Cards, +1 Action?  I think that it technically should become Action-Victory-Victory, but Ironworks would not grant an extra +1 Card because the Ironworks check just returns "true", not "double true". :P
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 03, 2015, 01:21:54 pm
Ironworks on an inherited Estate will give you the extra bonuses, right?

I play Ironworks, choosing Estate.  It is now my Estate, so now has extra types granted by Inheritance.  I would get +1 Card, +1 Action.

What if my Estates inherited Great Hall?  Inheritance says that it gains the types of the chosen card, so should Estate gain Victory type as well?  Does Estate become Action-Victory-Victory?  And if so, would Ironworks for Estate grant +2 Cards, +1 Action?  I think that it technically should become Action-Victory-Victory, but Ironworks would not grant an extra +1 Card because the Ironworks check just returns "true", not "double true". :P

You can only inherit a non-Victory Action card.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Rubby on April 03, 2015, 01:22:42 pm
So Estate-as-X is really different from Band of Misfits-as-X.

This all looks really cool, but - considering that not long ago Donald X adamantly insisted that the "who did" should have been left out of Soothsayer for simplicity and accessibility (in the easy-for-regular-folks-to-understand sense) - it seems like Dominion has taken a giant leap away from simplicity and accessibility.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 01:24:00 pm
What happens when you put your +1 Action token (or other positive token) on Band of Misfits?  BoM sort of transforms as you are playing it, so it will always be something else when played (unless there is no valid target).  I'm guessing you still get the token bonus first because, whatever BoM becomes, it is still from the BoM pile.
Band gives you benefits both from tokens on itself, and tokens on the card you play it as. You play Band as a specific card, which is from a specific pile.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: ephesos on April 03, 2015, 01:24:40 pm
Suppose I have an Inheritance token on Scout. Then, I buy an Estate. When does it become Scout?
Estates in the Supply, obviously, are not mine (otherwise Dominion becomes really easy for me), so they aren't Scout. So they wouldn't be gainable by Stonemason overpay/University.
But when does the card become "mine"? Is it an on-gain effect? Or does it have some sort of precedence, i.e. before all on-gain effects, or after all of them?

What happens if I Ironworks for an Estate?
Does Ironworks gain the Estate, look at it, go "Oh, that's one of my Estates, it's also Scout, so it's an Action. Here, have +1 Action +1 Card."
Or does it go "Oh, I gained an Estate, that's a Victory. It wasn't mine, cause I had to gain it, so it wasn't a Scout yet. So only +1 Card, I guess..."

Feels to me like it should be the first one, since you gain the card, then look at it. So somewhere sneakily in the middle, between gaining and checking, an inheritance lawyer comes and tells the Estate that it should now pretend like it's a Scout, and tell other cards that it is an Action. But is that a new step? Or is a card becoming "mine" an on-gain effect, so we could interrupt it with cards like Watchtower and Trader, and order the stacked on-gain effects that we control?

Edit: Damn, ninja'd
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 01:25:00 pm
Well I didn't mean all Victories, but allowing all Actions (currently) only allows Nobles, Island, Great Halls.. is that that huge?  Yeah, well, I guess it can double the VP of Estates or turn them into Duchies.  Alright.
Yeah I have had the experience. You will be inheriting some Islands.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 01:26:08 pm
So, stupid question, let's say I Inherit Death Cart, then buy an Estate. Do I get two Ruins? I was asked this and I said no because the Estate isn't "yours" until after you gain it, so on-gain effects don't trigger (Nomad Camp, Embassy, BV, Noble Brigand, that kind of thing) but I tried to go looking for that ruling and I couldn't find anything definitive. What was that ruling again?
Yes you get the Ruinses. The Estate is "yours" from the moment you buy it; when-buy and when-gain abilities trigger.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 03, 2015, 01:27:40 pm
Ironworks on an inherited Estate will give you the extra bonuses, right?

I play Ironworks, choosing Estate.  It is now my Estate, so now has extra types granted by Inheritance.  I would get +1 Card, +1 Action.

What if my Estates inherited Great Hall?  Inheritance says that it gains the types of the chosen card, so should Estate gain Victory type as well?  Does Estate become Action-Victory-Victory?  And if so, would Ironworks for Estate grant +2 Cards, +1 Action?  I think that it technically should become Action-Victory-Victory, but Ironworks would not grant an extra +1 Card because the Ironworks check just returns "true", not "double true". :P

You can only inherit a non-Victory Action card.

Whoops, right.  We were just talking about that.  ::)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 01:27:56 pm
Ironworks on an inherited Estate will give you the extra bonuses, right?

I play Ironworks, choosing Estate.  It is now my Estate, so now has extra types granted by Inheritance.  I would get +1 Card, +1 Action.

What if my Estates inherited Great Hall?  Inheritance says that it gains the types of the chosen card, so should Estate gain Victory type as well?  Does Estate become Action-Victory-Victory?  And if so, would Ironworks for Estate grant +2 Cards, +1 Action?  I think that it technically should become Action-Victory-Victory, but Ironworks would not grant an extra +1 Card because the Ironworks check just returns "true", not "double true". :P
Ironworks will get you the bonuses for turning Estate into an Action, but never gives double for a bonus. It's either a Victory card or it isn't; if it is you get +1 Card.

Also you can't inherit Great Halls.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 01:29:47 pm
This all looks really cool, but - considering that not long ago Donald X adamantly insisted that the "who did" should have been left out of Soothsayer for simplicity and accessibility (in the easy-for-regular-folks-to-understand sense) - it seems like Dominion has taken a giant leap away from simplicity and accessibility.
It's all a question of what you get out of your complexity. You want it to count. Those extra words on Soothsayer get you very little. Inheritance existing gets you Inheritance.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 01:31:32 pm
But when does the card become "mine"?
It's yours if you started with it, or bought it, or gained it, or were passed it.

It stops being yours if you trash it, or return it, or pass it.

I don't have the rulebook handy so maybe I am missing something. Aha, it's also yours/not due to exchanges.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: ephesos on April 03, 2015, 01:32:11 pm
So if I was to put an Estate token on Messenger, then buy an Estate, the Estate would become mine, and then all on-gain effects would trigger. So it would be Messenger, and inherit Messenger's text about being the first card bought this turn. So all of my opponents would gain an Estate.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: matste on April 03, 2015, 01:33:17 pm
So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 03, 2015, 01:36:16 pm
Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.



Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: ephesos on April 03, 2015, 01:36:48 pm
So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
I would think that would be under the lose-track rule; Transmute would lose track of Fortress, so it wouldn't gain anything.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: ephesos on April 03, 2015, 01:38:22 pm
Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Ummm... Suppose I put Estate tokens on Fortress and Feast... I can gain all the $5 cost or less cards in the Supply...
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 03, 2015, 01:40:50 pm
Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Ummm... Suppose I put Estate tokens on Fortress and Feast... I can gain all the $5 cost or less cards in the Supply...

You only have one Estate token, so buying Inheritance a second time would move it from one to another.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 03, 2015, 01:41:52 pm
Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Ummm... Suppose I put Estate tokens on Fortress and Feast... I can gain all the $5 cost or less cards in the Supply...

There is only one Estate token, so you could not put tokens on both.  You would only get to set aside a new card, putting your token on that (and losing the previous powers).
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Sidsel on April 03, 2015, 01:43:33 pm
Inheritance question: The card I set aside - do I take it from the supply, from my hand, from my deck..? Must I buy it first?

Just take it from the supply like the event says. You don't buy it separately.

Ah! I thought it just defined the type of action card I could use, specifying supply as opposed to an action card not in the supply - like a ruins or Black Market for example.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: AJD on April 03, 2015, 01:44:38 pm
So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
I would think that would be under the lose-track rule; Transmute would lose track of Fortress, so it wouldn't gain anything.

I don't know what the answer to the question is, but I do know that the lose-track rule doesn't play a role in it; nothing is trying to move anything that has already been moved.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: werothegreat on April 03, 2015, 01:45:19 pm
Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Ummm... Suppose I put Estate tokens on Fortress and Feast... I can gain all the $5 cost or less cards in the Supply...

There is only one Estate token, so you could not put tokens on both.  You would only get to set aside a new card, putting your token on that (and losing the previous powers).

Except Inheritance says "Once per game".
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Galzria on April 03, 2015, 01:47:26 pm
Assuming a Bridge/Highway in play to set up the initial Inheritance (yes, it still cost $7, but it's target can reduce in price), the following is correct?

"I can't wait to Inherit Hunting Grounds, trash my Estate, and gain 3 more... Hunting Grounds!

That on-gain should work, as the effect happens after you own it (thus changing it's nature), and before it hits the trash (reverting it back to an Estate). Yes?"
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Galzria on April 03, 2015, 01:49:29 pm
Does an Inherited Border Village force a gain of less than $2 when buying Estates (I would think so, but confirming nonetheless.)?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: crlundy on April 03, 2015, 01:50:19 pm
I love everything about Lost Arts. Especially the artwork. And I'm looking forward to putting my Action Token on Attacks. Familiar will make a splendid Village.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 03, 2015, 01:53:01 pm
Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Ummm... Suppose I put Estate tokens on Fortress and Feast... I can gain all the $5 cost or less cards in the Supply...

There is only one Estate token, so you could not put tokens on both.  You would only get to set aside a new card, putting your token on that (and losing the previous powers).

Except Inheritance says "Once per game".

Yes, and my question is why that is the case.  That is exactly what I was asking about.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: matste on April 03, 2015, 01:55:00 pm
Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
I suppose changing Estate-Caravan into Estate-Fishing Village would be too confusing.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 02:00:20 pm
So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
If you Inheritance Scouts and then Transmute an Estate, it was an Action-Victory card, so you gain a Duchy and a Gold. If you Inheritance Fortress and trash Estate, it goes back to your hand. In the case of Fortress, it was a Fortress when you trashed it, so the ability triggered. In the case of Transmute, I can see thinking that it's no longer an Action when we check. I don't have the rulebook handy now and am just going by isotropic; Doug tends to ask all these questions too.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 02:01:42 pm
Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
It was something you would rarely want to do, that caused horrible rules issues.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 02:03:25 pm
Assuming a Bridge/Highway in play to set up the initial Inheritance (yes, it still cost $7, but it's target can reduce in price), the following is correct?

"I can't wait to Inherit Hunting Grounds, trash my Estate, and gain 3 more... Hunting Grounds!

That on-gain should work, as the effect happens after you own it (thus changing it's nature), and before it hits the trash (reverting it back to an Estate). Yes?"
When you trash the Estate you can gain 3 Estates, which you can refer to as Hunting Groundses because we all know what you mean even though in fact they are Estates.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 02:03:59 pm
Does an Inherited Border Village force a gain of less than $2 when buying Estates (I would think so, but confirming nonetheless.)?
If that's what the Estate costs when you buy it then yes.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: brokoli on April 03, 2015, 02:05:52 pm
Inheritance's artwork is a bit similar to Inn (I mean, the landscape, colors). Interesting, thematically.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: brokoli on April 03, 2015, 02:08:47 pm
I love everything about Lost Arts. Especially the artwork. And I'm looking forward to putting my Action Token on Attacks. Familiar will make a splendid Village.
I don't think Familiar is a good target for Lost Arts though. Familiar is relatively expensive for that.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: ephesos on April 03, 2015, 02:16:38 pm
Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Suppose I have Estate token on Caravan. I King's Court an Estate. Then, I buy Inheritance again, and move it to a non-duration card. Rules issues...
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: chipperMDW on April 03, 2015, 02:24:01 pm
So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
If you Inheritance Scouts and then Transmute an Estate, it was an Action-Victory card, so you gain a Duchy and a Gold.
The rules for Band of Misfits say when you use Procession on it and play it as, e.g., Fortress, you "gain an Action card costing exactly $6 ($1 more than Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying Fortress)." So there, you don't care about what a thing was at the time it was trashed, but what it is at the time you're evaluating the instruction.

But here, you say you do care about what a thing was when it was trashed.

What's the difference? Do you check costs at the time of evaluation, but types at the time of trashing?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: ephesos on April 03, 2015, 02:25:16 pm
Wait, so Events aren't cards, right? They're Events... which means they aren't affected by Possession's card gaining clause. So you could Borrow while Possessing somebody else's turn, and they'd have to pay it back for their turn. Cool.

Also, if you buy Mission in a turn you played Possession during, does that mean you can order the turns? So you could Possess them, then play your Mission turn, Possess them again and buy another Mission, and it would give you another turn because the previous turn was the opponent's, who was Possessed. Basically, an infinite combo, so long as you can both reliably play Possession and $4.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: crlundy on April 03, 2015, 02:26:07 pm
I love everything about Lost Arts. Especially the artwork. And I'm looking forward to putting my Action Token on Attacks. Familiar will make a splendid Village.
I don't think Familiar is a good target for Lost Arts though. Familiar is relatively expensive for that.

I mean, if Familiar is in the Kingdom, I'm probably planning on buying it and spamming it. And I feel like I'd want my Action Token on a card I'll be playing a lot. And I can always move it once the curses run out. And if there are no other Villages, then it still doesn't seem that bad to me. (I also make no claims to give good strategy advice.)

But in general, there are other Attacks you want it on more, for sure. Non-terminal Goons or Mountebank seems like a no-brainer. (Could be nice on Giant, too.)

Some non-Attacks are also intriguing. Bridge and Monument come to mind. And draw-to-X.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 03, 2015, 02:29:07 pm
I love everything about Lost Arts. Especially the artwork. And I'm looking forward to putting my Action Token on Attacks. Familiar will make a splendid Village.
I don't think Familiar is a good target for Lost Arts though. Familiar is relatively expensive for that.

I mean, if Familiar is in the Kingdom, I'm probably planning on buying it and spamming it. And I feel like I'd want my Action Token on a card I'll be playing a lot. And I can always move it once the curses run out. And if there are no other Villages, then it still doesn't seem that bad to me. (I also make no claims to give good strategy advice.)

But in general, there are other Attacks you want it on more, for sure. Non-terminal Goons or Mountebank seems like a no-brainer. (Could be nice on Giant, too.)

Some non-Attacks are also intriguing. Bridge and Monument come to mind. And draw-to-X.

The thing is that you shouldn't be spamming Familiar that much.  I don't think I've ever gotten more than 3.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: jonts26 on April 03, 2015, 02:43:19 pm
I love everything about Lost Arts. Especially the artwork. And I'm looking forward to putting my Action Token on Attacks. Familiar will make a splendid Village.
I don't think Familiar is a good target for Lost Arts though. Familiar is relatively expensive for that.

I mean, if Familiar is in the Kingdom, I'm probably planning on buying it and spamming it. And I feel like I'd want my Action Token on a card I'll be playing a lot. And I can always move it once the curses run out. And if there are no other Villages, then it still doesn't seem that bad to me. (I also make no claims to give good strategy advice.)

But in general, there are other Attacks you want it on more, for sure. Non-terminal Goons or Mountebank seems like a no-brainer. (Could be nice on Giant, too.)

Some non-Attacks are also intriguing. Bridge and Monument come to mind. And draw-to-X.

The thing is that you shouldn't be spamming Familiar that much.  I don't think I've ever gotten more than 3.

If there's one key terminal then that's probably the best target but if there are multiples it's not a bad idea to turn a non terminal into a village if there isn't another. And over investing a little in something you'd already want multiples of isn't a bad idea. Of course it's all heavily board dependent.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Awaclus on April 03, 2015, 02:46:56 pm
And I feel like I'd want my Action Token on a card I'll be playing a lot.

That's almost true, but not quite. You don't necessarily want it on a card that you would be playing a lot anyways, you want it on a card that you will be playing a lot now that it actually has the token on it. Any terminal +3 cards is probably the best target, Smithy and Torturer seem like they would be particularly best because it's easy to gain many copies of the former, and the latter is something that you want to be easily spammable.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Awaclus on April 03, 2015, 02:51:26 pm
Inheritance's artwork is a bit similar to Inn (I mean, the landscape, colors). Interesting, thematically.

Well, yeah, obviously Inn-heritance has to be similar to Inn. It is very innteresting, inndeed.

(not sure if I'm making the joke or explaining it though)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: CavJes on April 03, 2015, 02:52:00 pm
Oh, hey. I bet this was brought up yesterday, but Bridge and Highway don't reduce Event costs.

So you mean I can't ever Procession the Borrow I just bought from the Black Market deck into the last Inheritance in the pile to end the game?  ;)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: LastFootnote on April 03, 2015, 02:53:32 pm
I love everything about Lost Arts. Especially the artwork. And I'm looking forward to putting my Action Token on Attacks. Familiar will make a splendid Village.
I don't think Familiar is a good target for Lost Arts though. Familiar is relatively expensive for that.

I mean, if Familiar is in the Kingdom, I'm probably planning on buying it and spamming it. And I feel like I'd want my Action Token on a card I'll be playing a lot. And I can always move it once the curses run out. And if there are no other Villages, then it still doesn't seem that bad to me. (I also make no claims to give good strategy advice.)

But in general, there are other Attacks you want it on more, for sure. Non-terminal Goons or Mountebank seems like a no-brainer. (Could be nice on Giant, too.)

Some non-Attacks are also intriguing. Bridge and Monument come to mind. And draw-to-X.

Unless your deck needs to play 5 different terminal Actions and Lost Arts is the only village, you almost always want your +1 Action token on something terminal. It's far more common to want to spam one particular terminal (Smithy, Merchant Ship, etc.) and then still have one Action left to play one copy of another (Militia, Moneylender, etc.). Or you can supplement that with some actual villages. This is just way more reliable than adding +1 Action to your villages and cantrips.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 03, 2015, 03:27:43 pm
Wee,  i predicted  (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12886.msg477889#msg477889) the colored tokens would be put on supply piles to alter the cards from them. Also, Inheritence actually combos with Scout  :o
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: crlundy on April 03, 2015, 03:32:47 pm
Yeah, my original post was hasty. In retrospect there are much better options out there, as those who've already played with tokens have pointed out. It will definitely take a couple weeks of playing for me to start to figure out all the strategy that's there. This is going to be a humbling expansion.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 03:37:01 pm
I King's Court an Estate.

Yeah, with Adventures, you can now say "I King's Court an Estate."
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: TheOthin on April 03, 2015, 03:40:21 pm
I King's Court an Estate.

Yeah, with Adventures, you can now say "I King's Court an Estate."

And even more significantly, "Hooray! I drew an Estate!"
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Gherald on April 03, 2015, 03:45:53 pm
"Hooray! I drew an Estate!"
It's all part of Donald's master plan to make Scout a thing
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Elanchana on April 03, 2015, 03:54:38 pm
*ish too lazy to read the whole thread* So wait, with Borrow does this mean you get an extra coin in your buy phase in exchange for drawing one fewer card next turn? Or the whole game?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Sidsel on April 03, 2015, 03:59:39 pm
*ish too lazy to read the whole thread* So wait, with Borrow does this mean you get an extra coin in your buy phase in exchange for drawing one fewer card next turn? Or the whole game?
Next time you draw cards.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Elanchana on April 03, 2015, 04:02:52 pm
*ish too lazy to read the whole thread* So wait, with Borrow does this mean you get an extra coin in your buy phase in exchange for drawing one fewer card next turn? Or the whole game?
Next time you draw cards.

So it's a one-time thing, right? That's mostly what I was wondering. Is there any time when "next time you draw cards" wouldn't be cleanup phase?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: AJD on April 03, 2015, 04:07:56 pm
*ish too lazy to read the whole thread* So wait, with Borrow does this mean you get an extra coin in your buy phase in exchange for drawing one fewer card next turn? Or the whole game?
Next time you draw cards.

So it's a one-time thing, right? That's mostly what I was wondering. Is there any time when "next time you draw cards" wouldn't be cleanup phase?

With Borrow, there are probably a few edge cases (buy Farmland, trash Overgrown Estate?). Probably there will be other cards or events that use the –card token at other times.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: chipperMDW on April 03, 2015, 04:08:34 pm
*ish too lazy to read the whole thread* So wait, with Borrow does this mean you get an extra coin in your buy phase in exchange for drawing one fewer card next turn? Or the whole game?
Next time you draw cards.

So it's a one-time thing, right? That's mostly what I was wondering. Is there any time when "next time you draw cards" wouldn't be cleanup phase?
If you bought a Rats and used Watchtower to trash it.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Elanchana on April 03, 2015, 04:15:06 pm
Aha. Or Cultist, that would work too. So the aim is to start the next turn with four cards, but there are ways of getting around that. And the token moves off the deck as soon as it's used.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: jaybeez on April 03, 2015, 04:19:21 pm
Can you Inherit an empty pile?  It doesn't have an "if you do" clause about setting the card aside, but then again, you're not placing the token on the pile, you're placing it on the set-aside card, so I'm guessing you can't.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: crlundy on April 03, 2015, 04:25:19 pm
I'd guess no for similar reasons to Workshop not letting you "gain" something from an empty pile (i.e. it doesn't say "Choose a Supply pile. Set aside a card from it.").
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: TheOthin on April 03, 2015, 04:31:49 pm
It says the Estates gain the traits of "that card", not "that pile" - this was crucial for Knights. So if you don't set aside a card you don't get anything.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 04:37:57 pm
"Hooray! I drew an Estate!"
It's all part of Donald's master plan to make Scout a thing

So it seems that Inheritance could actually make Scout a really good buy.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 04:39:40 pm
Is there any time when "next time you draw cards" wouldn't be cleanup phase?

Yes! Buy Borrow. Then buy Rats or Cultist (Or Estate with an Inheritance token on Rats or Cultist). Reveal Watchtower to trash the gained card; draw cards. Or buy Catacombs; trashing it with Watchtower, gaining Rats in response; trashing Rats with Watchtower. Similar thing with Hunting Grounds and gaining Estates with Inheritance.

*Edit* Oops, too slow.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Minotaur on April 03, 2015, 04:43:36 pm
Hmmm. Sort of convoluted, not sure I like.  Will buy anyway.  Maybe it'll grown on me.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Cinephile on April 03, 2015, 05:19:17 pm
Borrow's art is ridiculous in a Wand of Gamelon kind of way. Actually, the guy on the right could be a slightly older Duke Onkled.

(http://zeldawiki.org/images/9/9e/Onkled.jpg)

No?

Also, if you buy Mission in a turn you played Possession during, does that mean you can order the turns? So you could Possess them, then play your Mission turn, Possess them again and buy another Mission, and it would give you another turn because the previous turn was the opponent's, who was Possessed. Basically, an infinite combo, so long as you can both reliably play Possession and $4.

You take your Mission turn first, like you would with Outpost + Possession, because the effects resolve in player order and you are the current player. (DXV explained this in Previews #4 here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12894.msg478630#msg478630).)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 03, 2015, 06:10:30 pm
I'm in favour of calling Estates by cheap puns once they inherit some ability. Like Fortresstate, Harvestate and Ratstate.

By the way, i guess they will still actually be Estates, right? So Ratstates will be able to trash other Ratstates, and gain real Rats, won't they?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 06:12:23 pm
But when does the card become "mine"?
It's yours if you started with it, or bought it, or gained it, or were passed it.

It stops being yours if you trash it, or return it, or pass it.

I don't have the rulebook handy so maybe I am missing something. Aha, it's also yours/not due to exchanges.
It also stops being yours when you are preventing from getting it due to Possession or Trader.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 06:21:27 pm
So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
If you Inheritance Scouts and then Transmute an Estate, it was an Action-Victory card, so you gain a Duchy and a Gold.
The rules for Band of Misfits say when you use Procession on it and play it as, e.g., Fortress, you "gain an Action card costing exactly $6 ($1 more than Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying Fortress)." So there, you don't care about what a thing was at the time it was trashed, but what it is at the time you're evaluating the instruction.

But here, you say you do care about what a thing was when it was trashed.

What's the difference? Do you check costs at the time of evaluation, but types at the time of trashing?
The key difference is how much time I have spent on these questions and what materials I had access to at the time.

I don't see a conversation with Doug about it, so possibly it just randomly ended up that way on isotropic.

Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.

When-trashed things however trigger when trashed and so will happen even if the card loses that ability then.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 06:22:45 pm
Wait, so Events aren't cards, right? They're Events... which means they aren't affected by Possession's card gaining clause. So you could Borrow while Possessing somebody else's turn, and they'd have to pay it back for their turn. Cool.

Also, if you buy Mission in a turn you played Possession during, does that mean you can order the turns? So you could Possess them, then play your Mission turn, Possess them again and buy another Mission, and it would give you another turn because the previous turn was the opponent's, who was Possessed. Basically, an infinite combo, so long as you can both reliably play Possession and $4.
You don't get to order Mission vs. Possession, because one is your turn and one is someone else's. They happen in turn order (like passing out Curses). Same as for Outpost, which is covered in the Alchemy rulebook.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 06:25:15 pm
Aha. Or Cultist, that would work too. So the aim is to start the next turn with four cards, but there are ways of getting around that. And the token moves off the deck as soon as it's used.
Yes; the bit about removing the token is written on the token, which is why you-all wondered about it. I did not have an image of the token to include.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 06:26:08 pm
Can you Inherit an empty pile?  It doesn't have an "if you do" clause about setting the card aside, but then again, you're not placing the token on the pile, you're placing it on the set-aside card, so I'm guessing you can't.
You don't Inheritance a pile, you Inheritance a card. If there's no legal card to set aside, you get nothing.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 06:29:58 pm
Looking at the FAQ, you guys haven't asked yet if Estates can be revealed as Young Witch's bane. No, they can't be.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 06:30:10 pm
Aha. Or Cultist, that would work too. So the aim is to start the next turn with four cards, but there are ways of getting around that. And the token moves off the deck as soon as it's used.
Yes; the bit about removing the token is written on the token, which is why you-all wondered about it. I did not have an image of the token to include.

Are the tokens poker chip type things?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 06:31:27 pm
Looking at the FAQ, you guys haven't asked yet if Estates can be revealed as Young Witch's bane. No, they can't be.

Clearly, because Bain cards are cards "from that pile". But yeah, that will surely be asked eventually.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 06:32:00 pm
Are the tokens poker chip type things?
They are cardboard. There are larger rectangular ones with text and smaller circular ones with well some of those have text but not much text, e.g. +1 Action, and some have pictures, e.g. a boot on the Journey token.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: scott_pilgrim on April 03, 2015, 07:06:04 pm
So if I was to put an Estate token on Messenger, then buy an Estate, the Estate would become mine

No, this only works if you put the Estate token on Mine.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Throwaway_bicycling on April 03, 2015, 07:29:09 pm
So if "Your Estates turn into another card" does that mean they literally inherit the card text? So your Sir Martin Estates attack like a Knight, but if you are attacked by a Knight, Sir Martin the Green escapes because he only costs $2?

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?
"Your Estates turn into another card" is a convenient inaccurate shorthand. Your Estates gain the abilities and types of the card. They don't copy anything else, including cost, or name, or "what pile was that from."

So Sir Martin Estates have the types of Sir Martin, and give +2 Buys and attack like he does. They can die to other Knights if they hit one, but other Knights attacking skip over them since they cost $2.

Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.

Thanks; that was really useful. I understand there will a FAQ on this, but, in general, I can see where if card text refers to the card name, and it ain't "Estate", then you're all done. Is the use of the word "this" neutral enough for you to play "as if" it were the same card?

So specifically, Urchin's card text reads: When you play another Attack card with this in play, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile.

This leads me to believe that if you put your Estate token on Urchin, you can trash an Estate played as an attack if you play another attack (which could be another Estate played as if it were an Urchin). Is that right?

(Note: I have no idea whether this is just a Fancy Play most of the time, but the idea of Turn 2 Mercenary in contrived circumstances is amusing.)

And then there's cases like Pirate Ship, whose text reads: Choose one: Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure that you choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token; or, +$1 per Coin token you’ve taken with Pirate Ships this game.

(Emphasis added by me.) In this case, it seems like if you put your Estate token on Pirate ship, that you can take choice 1...but then have to put the Coin token gained some place that's not the Pirate Ship mat since the second choice tells you that only Coin tokens "taken with Pirate Ship" yield money. But by the same token (heh), maybe you can play Estate and take the second option and get money for the tokens on your Pirate Ship mat, if there are any. (Again, no suggestion you would actually want to do that, but...seems possible.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 03, 2015, 07:36:52 pm
"That Cursed Estate in my Possession causes me Confusion."

Oops, just noticed this doesn't work as it specifies Action card. Nevermind.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 07:41:27 pm
Yeah Pirate Ship Estate is going to be a rules issue no matter what I think. I'm pretty sure that the intent of Pirate Ship is that you get a coin for each token on your Pirate Ship mat no matter what. But then again the card says what it says. Either you have to disobey that part of Pirate Ship's wording, and allow the Estate Ship tokens to count; or you'd have to ignore the Estate Ship's wording about putting the token on the mat. Because once a token is on the mat, there's no tracking where it came from.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 08:04:09 pm
Thanks; that was really useful. I understand there will a FAQ on this, but, in general, I can see where if card text refers to the card name, and it ain't "Estate", then you're all done. Is the use of the word "this" neutral enough for you to play "as if" it were the same card?
"This" means the card, whatever that card is. It works when the card gets Inherited.

So specifically, Urchin's card text reads: When you play another Attack card with this in play, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile.

This leads me to believe that if you put your Estate token on Urchin, you can trash an Estate played as an attack if you play another attack (which could be another Estate played as if it were an Urchin). Is that right?
Yes.

And then there's cases like Pirate Ship, whose text reads: Choose one: Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure that you choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token; or, +$1 per Coin token you’ve taken with Pirate Ships this game.

(Emphasis added by me.) In this case, it seems like if you put your Estate token on Pirate ship, that you can take choice 1...but then have to put the Coin token gained some place that's not the Pirate Ship mat since the second choice tells you that only Coin tokens "taken with Pirate Ship" yield money. But by the same token (heh), maybe you can play Estate and take the second option and get money for the tokens on your Pirate Ship mat, if there are any. (Again, no suggestion you would actually want to do that, but...seems possible.
I am tentatively ruling that it counts all of the tokens on the mat. Obv. that's not what it literally says.

Pirate Ship has that wording due to originally having no mat. And then not having the work put into it to have the best possible wording once it had a mat. Trade Route was similar but then it got a better wording that accounted for the mat. That's just some history, it's not really relevant but there it is.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: nemryn on April 03, 2015, 08:19:16 pm
With Lost Arts, "you first get +1 Action" means 'as the first part of the card's effect' and not 'before you play the card', right? I still can't play the card if I've used up all my Actions for the turn.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Orange on April 03, 2015, 08:21:00 pm
So if I inherit Baron, and then have a hand with 2 Estates, I can get the +$4 and +1 buy?  Imagine if I had some Talismen to get many Estates and Scout to draw them all!
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 08:50:24 pm
With Lost Arts, "you first get +1 Action" means 'as the first part of the card's effect' and not 'before you play the card', right? I still can't play the card if I've used up all my Actions for the turn.
Yes it's just like the card said +1 Action at the top of its text box, it's resolved at that time.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 08:51:31 pm
So if I inherit Baron, and then have a hand with 2 Estates, I can get the +$4 and +1 buy?  Imagine if I had some Talismen to get many Estates and Scout to draw them all!
Your Baron thing works, but Talisman can't gain Victory cards.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 09:04:31 pm
Thanks; that was really useful. I understand there will a FAQ on this, but, in general, I can see where if card text refers to the card name, and it ain't "Estate", then you're all done. Is the use of the word "this" neutral enough for you to play "as if" it were the same card?
"This" means the card, whatever that card is. It works when the card gets Inherited.

So specifically, Urchin's card text reads: When you play another Attack card with this in play, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile.

This leads me to believe that if you put your Estate token on Urchin, you can trash an Estate played as an attack if you play another attack (which could be another Estate played as if it were an Urchin). Is that right?
Yes.

And then there's cases like Pirate Ship, whose text reads: Choose one: Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure that you choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token; or, +$1 per Coin token you’ve taken with Pirate Ships this game.

(Emphasis added by me.) In this case, it seems like if you put your Estate token on Pirate ship, that you can take choice 1...but then have to put the Coin token gained some place that's not the Pirate Ship mat since the second choice tells you that only Coin tokens "taken with Pirate Ship" yield money. But by the same token (heh), maybe you can play Estate and take the second option and get money for the tokens on your Pirate Ship mat, if there are any. (Again, no suggestion you would actually want to do that, but...seems possible.
I am tentatively ruling that it counts all of the tokens on the mat. Obv. that's not what it literally says.

Pirate Ship has that wording due to originally having no mat. And then not having the work put into it to have the best possible wording once it had a mat. Trade Route was similar but then it got a better wording that accounted for the mat. That's just some history, it's not really relevant but there it is.

In my opinion, this is the only sensible ruling. Literal wording isn't as important as intention and clarity.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: TheOthin on April 03, 2015, 10:11:55 pm
Pirate Ship is kind of a special case because it isn't played according to its wording anyway. I remember my first game with it, we were all confused and asked what the hell a coin token was and someone said you can spend them to make coins and so we started using the Pirate Ship tokens as Guilds coin tokens but still trying to track them for Pirate Ship purposes.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Rubby on April 03, 2015, 10:23:07 pm
Wow, never realized until just now that Pirate Ship's wording was kind of already broken. "Take a Coin token" on Pirate Ship means something fundamentally different from the exact same phrase on the Guilds cards. Certainly if the Guilds cards had existed when Pirate Ship was made, the Pirate Ship tokens would have been given a different name.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: swedenman on April 03, 2015, 10:32:16 pm
Does the set-aside card for Inheritance count as part of your deck for Gardens/Vineyard purposes? I would imagine it does.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 10:35:43 pm
Does the set-aside card for Inheritance count as part of your deck for Gardens/Vineyard purposes? I would imagine it does.
Yes.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 03, 2015, 10:37:51 pm
Does the set-aside card for Inheritance count as part of your deck for Gardens/Vineyard purposes? I would imagine it does.
Yes.

Now this I wouldn't have guessed. Because you never gained that card; I assumed it wasn't in any way part of your deck.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 03, 2015, 10:50:23 pm
Wow, never realized until just now that Pirate Ship's wording was kind of already broken. "Take a Coin token" on Pirate Ship means something fundamentally different from the exact same phrase on the Guilds cards. Certainly if the Guilds cards had existed when Pirate Ship was made, the Pirate Ship tokens would have been given a different name.

We were all over that during the Guilds previews. :))
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: AJD on April 03, 2015, 11:01:48 pm
But when does the card become "mine"?
It's yours if you started with it, or bought it, or gained it, or were passed it.

It stops being yours if you trash it, or return it, or pass it.

I don't have the rulebook handy so maybe I am missing something. Aha, it's also yours/not due to exchanges.
It also stops being yours when you are preventing from getting it due to Possession or Trader.

So in other words, you can Inherit a Noble Brigand, and then buy an Estate, triggering the on-buy attack of Noble Brigand, and then reveal a Trader and gain a Silver?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 11:03:29 pm
So in other words, you can Inherit a Noble Brigand, and then buy an Estate, triggering the on-buy attack of Noble Brigand, and then reveal a Trader and gain a Silver?
Yes, you can do that.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 11:04:49 pm
Does the set-aside card for Inheritance count as part of your deck for Gardens/Vineyard purposes? I would imagine it does.
Yes.

Now this I wouldn't have guessed. Because you never gained that card; I assumed it wasn't in any way part of your deck.
When you reach the end of a game, and that card is sitting there, it will feel like yours.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: enfynet on April 03, 2015, 11:28:24 pm
Does the set-aside card for Inheritance count as part of your deck for Gardens/Vineyard purposes? I would imagine it does.
Yes.

Now this I wouldn't have guessed. Because you never gained that card; I assumed it wasn't in any way part of your deck.
When you reach the end of a game, and that card is sitting there, it will feel like yours.
Does this mean cards "Set Aside" with Inheritance also count towards 3-pile? As in, the cards are no longer in the supply? This is getting weird. (I like it.)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 03, 2015, 11:32:53 pm
Does this mean cards "Set Aside" with Inheritance also count towards 3-pile? As in, the cards are no longer in the supply? This is getting weird. (I like it.)
Using Inheritance removes a (single copy of one) card from the Supply. No-one can buy it / gain it. We need it sitting there set aside so we know what your Estates do. I mean they might be Sir Martin. This is not a confusing thing. When you set aside the card it will be clear that it's no longer in the pile.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Gherald on April 03, 2015, 11:52:05 pm
Bridge and Inheritance seems like an easy combo to make your Estates a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/14px-Coin5.png) cost

Usually when we think of cost reducer-enablers for something like this we think of Highway, since its easier to e.g. play 3 Highways and then Altar a copper into a Province, or 1 Highway and then set another of your Highways aside with Prince.  Highway's action is convenient in those lineups.

But Inheritance is just something you buy, so a simple Bridge to turn your estates into (say) Hunting Parties will do, and that Bridge will help you gain more "Hunting Estates"

The price of the event itself is fixed, however - seems Highway/Bridge don't make events cheaper:

Event cards give you something to buy; that thing is not a card. There will be a rulebook and it will say stuff just like this.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: werothegreat on April 04, 2015, 12:01:16 am
Given Borrow's wording, would I be correct in assuming that if your -1 Card token was already on your deck for some reason, buying Borrow would give you another Buy, but would not give you the $1?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: LastFootnote on April 04, 2015, 12:03:12 am
Given Borrow's wording, would I be correct in assuming that if your -1 Card token was already on your deck for some reason, buying Borrow would give you another Buy, but would not give you the $1?

Correct. It wouldn't do anything except make Messengers you buy on that turn not have their on-buy effect.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: joel88s on April 04, 2015, 12:27:00 am
Does the set-aside card for Inheritance count as part of your deck for Gardens/Vineyard purposes? I would imagine it does.
Yes.

Now this I wouldn't have guessed. Because you never gained that card; I assumed it wasn't in any way part of your deck.
When you reach the end of a game, and that card is sitting there, it will feel like yours.


Classic writer's answer to an engineer's question.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: nemryn on April 04, 2015, 01:19:44 am
I suspect that the -1 Card from Borrow will be more painful than it seems at first. Giving your opponent a free Urchin+ isn't the end of the world, but it's probably not something you want to make a habit of doing either.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: TheOthin on April 04, 2015, 01:28:14 am
I suspect that the -1 Card from Borrow will be more painful than it seems at first. Giving your opponent a free Urchin+ isn't the end of the world, but it's probably not something you want to make a habit of doing either.

It's worse than Urchin because you don't get to pick; it's more like hitting yourself with Minion without the cycling.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: ephesos on April 04, 2015, 01:32:17 am
What about Inherited Crossroads? They say "If this is the first time you have played a Crossroads this turn", so I would think that playing an Estate is not the first time you played a Crossroads, and you wouldn't get +3 Actions. But it seems needlessly self referential.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: ephesos on April 04, 2015, 01:32:52 am
I suspect that the -1 Card from Borrow will be more painful than it seems at first. Giving your opponent a free Urchin+ isn't the end of the world, but it's probably not something you want to make a habit of doing either.

It's worse than Urchin because you don't get to pick; it's more like hitting yourself with Minion without the cycling.
And that's why it's Urchin+: it's plus for your opponent and minus for you.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 04, 2015, 02:02:07 am
What about Inherited Crossroads? They say "If this is the first time you have played a Crossroads this turn", so I would think that playing an Estate is not the first time you played a Crossroads, and you wouldn't get +3 Actions. But it seems needlessly self referential.

Inherited Crossroads does not give you +actions.
 
So, one can't get +3 action with Estate Crossroad because playing an estate is not "your first time you play a crossroad"?
Correct.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: matste on April 04, 2015, 02:40:21 am
Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.
Does this apply to all "Trash for X" cards? For example with a Quarry in play your inherited Scouts are worth 0, so if they get swindled, you may end up with a Curse. And if you Salvage them, you get +0$.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: faust on April 04, 2015, 04:09:28 am
Not read through everything, but quick thoughts:

Inheritance/Baron seems crazy good.  Baron helps spike $7 early, and then Baron turns into: "+1 buy, choose one: discard action card X and +$4, or gain action card X", which seems really nice.

Borrow actually counters Minion strategies a bit, that's cool.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Sidsel on April 04, 2015, 06:01:14 am
Am I right in thinking that Lost Arts + Duration cards only add the +Action to the turn it is played? So Caravan becomes a village first turn - but still stays at +1 Card on the second turn?

Also,  recently played a fun game of Grand Market + Quarry. I'm trying to imagine Inheritance+GM+Q, but the image is blurry due to my eyes being full of $$$$$ signs.
Q+2Golds = Defines the Grand Estate.
Every Grand Estate played afterwards nets me another one...
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: qmech on April 04, 2015, 07:05:20 am
Am I right in thinking that Lost Arts + Duration cards only add the +Action to the turn it is played? So Caravan becomes a village first turn - but still stays at +1 Card on the second turn?

Yes, you only "play" the card the first time, although it remains "in play".  (Compare Peddler and Conspirator.)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 04, 2015, 09:16:49 am
Not read through everything, but quick thoughts:

Inheritance/Baron seems crazy good.  Baron helps spike $7 early, and then Baron turns into: "+1 buy, choose one: discard action card X and +$4, or gain action card X", which seems really nice.


I'm not so sure... if you have 2 Estate/Barons in your hand, then you get +$4 and a buy... those could have been Silver and Woodcutter for the same effect. And you don't want to be gaining more and more Estate/Barons because they're terminal.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 04, 2015, 09:19:14 am
The card doesn't read like you can buy it once per turn; it reads like wero is suggesting. The "once per turn" precedes the moving-token-getting-money clause. It doesn't say anything about only being able to buy it once per turn (though why would you want to, really).
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: shmeur on April 04, 2015, 09:21:27 am
Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.
Does this apply to all "Trash for X" cards? For example with a Quarry in play your inherited Scouts are worth 0, so if they get swindled, you may end up with a Curse. And if you Salvage them, you get +0$.
Wouldn't salvage come before quarry anyway?  Also first post.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: shmeur on April 04, 2015, 09:22:55 am
Not read through everything, but quick thoughts:

Inheritance/Baron seems crazy good.  Baron helps spike $7 early, and then Baron turns into: "+1 buy, choose one: discard action card X and +$4, or gain action card X", which seems really nice.


I'm not so sure... if you have 2 Estate/Barons in your hand, then you get +$4 and a buy... those could have been Silver and Woodcutter for the same effect. And you don't want to be gaining more and more Estate/Barons because they're terminal.
Baron would combo well with Inheritance but not by using Inheritance on Baron itself.  Inheritance/Nonterminal + Baron would be good I think.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 04, 2015, 09:23:32 am
The card doesn't read like you can buy it once per turn; it reads like wero is suggesting. The "once per turn" precedes the moving-token-getting-money clause. It doesn't say anything about only being able to buy it once per turn (though why would you want to, really).

See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12906.msg478752#msg478752. All events that start with "once per turn:" are saying that you can only buy that event once per turn; and are not related to the effect of the card. However, looking again, I do find Borrow to be a little confusing, because the "+1 Buy" is written BEFORE the "once per turn" part.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 04, 2015, 09:25:14 am
Not read through everything, but quick thoughts:

Inheritance/Baron seems crazy good.  Baron helps spike $7 early, and then Baron turns into: "+1 buy, choose one: discard action card X and +$4, or gain action card X", which seems really nice.


I'm not so sure... if you have 2 Estate/Barons in your hand, then you get +$4 and a buy... those could have been Silver and Woodcutter for the same effect. And you don't want to be gaining more and more Estate/Barons because they're terminal.
Baron would combo well with Inheritance but not by using Inheritance on Baron itself.  Inheritance/Nonterminal + Baron would be good I think.

Yes. Baron will make it much easier to hit that $7 quicker.Quite possibly on turn 3-4 with a little luck.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 04, 2015, 09:25:53 am
Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.
Does this apply to all "Trash for X" cards? For example with a Quarry in play your inherited Scouts are worth 0, so if they get swindled, you may end up with a Curse. And if you Salvage them, you get +0$.
Wouldn't salvage come before quarry anyway?  Also first post.

Not with Black Market, or the new card Storyteller.

Welcome to the forums!
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: shmeur on April 04, 2015, 09:27:52 am
Not read through everything, but quick thoughts:

Inheritance/Baron seems crazy good.  Baron helps spike $7 early, and then Baron turns into: "+1 buy, choose one: discard action card X and +$4, or gain action card X", which seems really nice.


I'm not so sure... if you have 2 Estate/Barons in your hand, then you get +$4 and a buy... those could have been Silver and Woodcutter for the same effect. And you don't want to be gaining more and more Estate/Barons because they're terminal.
Baron would combo well with Inheritance but not by using Inheritance on Baron itself.  Inheritance/Nonterminal + Baron would be good I think.

Yes. Baron will make it much easier to hit that $7 quicker.Quite possibly on turn 3-4 with a little luck.

And you could use the +Buy to buy more Estates!  Estate rushes might be a thing now actually.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 04, 2015, 09:30:48 am
Ah well, what Inheritance does is very similar to increasing the value of a specific cheap action card by making it cost $2 and giving a VP. I don't think you would want to have a deck full of Barons, even if they all were worth 1 VP and costed only $2. Sure, Baron-Estate (i got no pun to use here) can gain copies of itself, but it's still a terminal action. In a similar way, you wouldn't want to make Scouts of your Estates. That doesn't mean that a deck full of Highwaystates doesn't have use for a Scout or Baron, i think.

Where did those Ninjas come from?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 04, 2015, 09:33:57 am
The card doesn't read like you can buy it once per turn; it reads like wero is suggesting. The "once per turn" precedes the moving-token-getting-money clause. It doesn't say anything about only being able to buy it once per turn (though why would you want to, really).

See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12906.msg478752#msg478752. All events that start with "once per turn:" are saying that you can only buy that event once per turn; and are not related to the effect of the card. However, looking again, I do find Borrow to be a little confusing, because the "+1 Buy" is written BEFORE the "once per turn" part.

Linking to your own post doesn't convince anyone who was questioning you of anything at all. Moreover, it's not that I am actually claiming you are wrong per se, more that that is not how the card reads by itself.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 04, 2015, 09:37:33 am
The card doesn't read like you can buy it once per turn; it reads like wero is suggesting. The "once per turn" precedes the moving-token-getting-money clause. It doesn't say anything about only being able to buy it once per turn (though why would you want to, really).

See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12906.msg478752#msg478752. All events that start with "once per turn:" are saying that you can only buy that event once per turn; and are not related to the effect of the card. However, looking again, I do find Borrow to be a little confusing, because the "+1 Buy" is written BEFORE the "once per turn" part.

Linking to your own post doesn't convince anyone who was questioning you of anything at all. Moreover, it's not that I am actually claiming you are wrong per se, more that that is not how the card reads by itself.

Well I didn't know if you had seen that post; it's also worth noting that Donald +1'd it, which does pretty much mean that it's correct. But yes, I agree that the card wording by itself is confusing. But if the "once per turn" were not meant to stop you from purchasing it only once; then there would be no need to have it there at all... the "if" clause would already prevent it anyway. The only thing "once per turn" does is stops you from buying an unlimited number of this event. Which could matter if there were ever a card similar to Goons that gives you something when you buy an event.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: enfynet on April 04, 2015, 09:39:57 am
The card doesn't read like you can buy it once per turn; it reads like wero is suggesting. The "once per turn" precedes the moving-token-getting-money clause. It doesn't say anything about only being able to buy it once per turn (though why would you want to, really).

See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12906.msg478752#msg478752. All events that start with "once per turn:" are saying that you can only buy that event once per turn; and are not related to the effect of the card. However, looking again, I do find Borrow to be a little confusing, because the "+1 Buy" is written BEFORE the "once per turn" part.

Linking to your own post doesn't convince anyone who was questioning you of anything at all. Moreover, it's not that I am actually claiming you are wrong per se, more that that is not how the card reads by itself.

I'm on the side of: Buy it as much as you want, but the effect only happens once.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: dan11295 on April 04, 2015, 09:47:00 am
Basically Inheritance turns your Estate into a $2 Estate that gains the abilities and types of the card you set aside. It doesn't work with Crossroads because you still played an Estate, not a Crossroads, as mentioned above. Few other examples/interactions relating to other cards, some have which been discussed above (correct me if I am wrong):

Swindler: If the Inherited card gets Swindled, it gets turned into another $2 card, either Estate (which still becomes Inherited card) or other $2.
Treasure Map: Doesn't work, your Estate is not a "copy of Treasure Map" as Donald already mentioned.
Potion-cost cards: Can't use it on these, just like you can't use Workshop or Ironworks to gain them.
Baron: Mentioned above, Still works, since you are still discarding an Estate.
Young Witch: Can't reveal the Estate as a Bane, as the Bane card is never an Estate.
Squire: Does work, you can trash your Inherited Squires to become attack cards, as card text says "when you trash this".
Sage: does not combo with Inherited cards, since the Estate still costs $2, and will pass over them.

Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: shmeur on April 04, 2015, 09:50:00 am
Basically Inheritance turns your Estate into a $2 Estate that gains the abilities and types of the card you set aside. It doesn't work with Crossroads because you still played an Estate, not a Crossroads, as mentioned above. Few other examples/interactions relating to other cards, some have which been discussed above (correct me if I am wrong):

Swindler: If the Inherited card gets Swindled, it gets turned into another $2 card, either Estate (which still becomes Inherited card) or other $2.
Treasure Map: Doesn't work, your Estate is not a "copy of Treasure Map" as Donald already mentioned.
Potion-cost cards: Can't use it on these, just like you can't use Workshop or Ironworks to gain them.
Baron: Mentioned above, Still works, since you are still discarding an Estate.
Young Witch: Can't reveal the Estate as a Bane, as the Bane card is never an Estate.
Squire: Does work, you can trash your Inherited Squires to become attack cards, as card text says "when you trash this".
Sage: does not combo with Inherited cards, since the Estate still costs $2, and will pass over them.

Crossroads works well with it as it can draw you more cards for every Estate you have.  It just would be silly to make Estates Crossroads.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 04, 2015, 09:58:01 am
Basically Inheritance turns your Estate into a $2 Estate that gains the abilities and types of the card you set aside. It doesn't work with Crossroads because you still played an Estate, not a Crossroads, as mentioned above. Few other examples/interactions relating to other cards, some have which been discussed above (correct me if I am wrong):

Swindler: If the Inherited card gets Swindled, it gets turned into another $2 card, either Estate (which still becomes Inherited card) or other $2.
Treasure Map: Doesn't work, your Estate is not a "copy of Treasure Map" as Donald already mentioned.
Potion-cost cards: Can't use it on these, just like you can't use Workshop or Ironworks to gain them.
Baron: Mentioned above, Still works, since you are still discarding an Estate.
Young Witch: Can't reveal the Estate as a Bane, as the Bane card is never an Estate.
Squire: Does work, you can trash your Inherited Squires to become attack cards, as card text says "when you trash this".
Sage: does not combo with Inherited cards, since the Estate still costs $2, and will pass over them.

Crossroads works well with it as it can draw you more cards for every Estate you have.  It just would be silly to make Estates Crossroads.

I'm not sure it would. I mean, if you can then get lots of estates, you're looking at a bunch of cards that are "1 VP, +2-4 (or more) cards". Not the greatest thing ever, but not ridiculous.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Seprix on April 04, 2015, 10:07:27 am
Uh, estates play like they are the card without ever taking on the card's nameship. If you played Estate as Treasure Map and then trashed Treasure Map from the hand, I think that would work on a technical standpoint, but I'm sure it's wrong anyways.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 04, 2015, 10:08:53 am
Uh, estates play like they are the card without ever taking on the card's nameship. If you played Estate as Treasure Map and then trashed Treasure Map from the hand, I think that would work.

You could play Estate as Treasure Map and then trash a (real) Treasure Map from your hand, but you will not get any Gold because you did not "trash 2 Treasure Maps."
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Seprix on April 04, 2015, 10:10:19 am
Wow, the wording was more specific than I remember. Yeah, easy call there.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 04, 2015, 10:12:48 am
Wow, the wording was more specific than I remember. Yeah, easy call there.

Yeah, it was done that way pretty much to prevent any form of Throne-Room + Treasure Map ever working.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: joel88s on April 04, 2015, 10:22:30 am
Uh, estates play like they are the card without ever taking on the card's nameship. If you played Estate as Treasure Map and then trashed Treasure Map from the hand, I think that would work.

You could play Estate as Treasure Map and then trash a (real) Treasure Map from your hand, but you will not get any Gold because you did not "trash 2 Treasure Maps."

Play Estate Treasure Map.
Trash it and a Treasure Map from your hand.
Add four bags of dirt to your deck.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: AJD on April 04, 2015, 10:23:21 am
Crossroads works well with it as it can draw you more cards for every Estate you have.  It just would be silly to make Estates Crossroads.

I'm not sure it would. I mean, if you can then get lots of estates, you're looking at a bunch of cards that are "1 VP, +2-4 (or more) cards". Not the greatest thing ever, but not ridiculous.

…What Shmeur said is that you wouldn't make your Estates inherit Crossroads. So, you know, if Estates are $2 Ironmongers for you or whatever, you might buy up a whole bunch of Estates and then use Crossroads for extra draw.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: -Stef- on April 04, 2015, 10:35:13 am
Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.

Borrow is one of my favorite events (there's two I can't really choose between). More tactical decisions almost every turn, bye bye heart breaking streaks of $7 hands in the endgame.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 04, 2015, 10:47:03 am
I think Lost Arts is best fit for strong drawers. Provided you have no cost reduction, this would mean either Smithy or Envoy. Envoy's power is greatly reduced if you play it with your last action, and more so than Smithy. Assuming that for both cards this was considered when balancing them, Envoy gains more from becoming nonterminal than Smithy, and so should be a superior target.

Edit: That's assuming that without Lost Arts on the board they are equally strong on avarage, which i'm pretty sure isn't the case. I can only argue from a theoretical design position, though, as i'm not good enough a player to compare Envoy to Smithy in general. Anyhow, however Envoy's basic strength compares to Smithy, it gains more from the +1 Action in my opinion.

Edit 2: Assuming Envoy gets more from this than Smithy, you can think about whether other, more expansive drawers are better. Torturer is harsher when you chain them, Cultist can act fairly nonterminal anyhow. I personally thought of Inheritance and limited myself to cards costing $4 or less. Either way, they ARE easier to get, which is a huge plus.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: jsh357 on April 04, 2015, 10:49:19 am
Don't discredit yourself; your logic is perfectly sound.  I agree terminal draw is generally the best target, but terminal payoff cards like merchant guild are great too.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on April 04, 2015, 10:50:34 am
I think Lost Arts is best fit for strong drawers. Provided you have no cost reduction, this would mean either Smithy or Envoy.

I'm not sure exactly how you meant this, but Lost Arts works on any action card regardless of cost.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 04, 2015, 10:54:36 am
I think Lost Arts is best fit for strong drawers. Provided you have no cost reduction, this would mean either Smithy or Envoy.

I'm not sure exactly how you meant this, but Lost Arts works on any action card regardless of cost.

Yup, i thought of inheritance when i wrote that. Ever since that card was previewed it has been drawing all my Dominion-related thoughts on it. i guess Margrave, hunting Grounds, Tortures etc also fit. Hm... Nonterminal Torturers sound nasty, too. They are more expensive, though.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 04, 2015, 10:57:41 am
Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

I mentioned that earlier, with the caveat that it probably isn't so rosy because

1. That drains the pile of my cheap personal power cards.
2. The other players could buy Inheritance themselves.

Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 04, 2015, 10:57:49 am
Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.

Borrow is one of my favorite events (there's two I can't really choose between). More tactical decisions almost every turn, bye bye heart breaking streaks of $7 hands in the endgame.

So I can now tell the interesting story I had about Hireling... I once put my +1 Action Token on Hireling. Yup. Even though it's a one-shot in terms of how often you play the card. I did it so that I could play multiple on the same turn; then moved my Action Token somewhere else.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: enfynet on April 04, 2015, 11:06:32 am
Who's the jerk that wants to put +1 Action on Possession?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: chipperMDW on April 04, 2015, 11:09:05 am
Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.
Does this apply to all "Trash for X" cards? For example with a Quarry in play your inherited Scouts are worth 0, so if they get swindled, you may end up with a Curse. And if you Salvage them, you get +0$.
Actually, according to what Donald said last, it should mean the reverse.  If the Estate is no longer yours when Swindler checks its cost, it's no longer an action card, so it just a regular $2 Estate again, and Swindler's giving you a $2... maybe another Estate that turns into a $0 Estate-Scout once it's back in your possession.

And Salvager would give +$2 even though the card was a $0 when you trashed it.

Note also that his latest response means, with regards to your earlier question, your initial guess was correct: if you Transmute an Estate-Scout, it's not yours anymore when Transmute checks it, so it's just a victory card and you only get a Gold, not the Duchy+Gold he initially told you.


Personally, I've always hated the rule that said Procession was supposed to follow its trashed cards around who-knows-where to see whether or not they had turned back into Band of Misfits. (Like some kind of "Keep Track At All Costs" rule.) Looks like Inheritance will bring that rule into play a lot more often, and many trashers will now have to follow their cards around to see whether they've changed types or, with Quarry, costs.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 04, 2015, 11:14:01 am
Crossroads works well with it as it can draw you more cards for every Estate you have.  It just would be silly to make Estates Crossroads.

I'm not sure it would. I mean, if you can then get lots of estates, you're looking at a bunch of cards that are "1 VP, +2-4 (or more) cards". Not the greatest thing ever, but not ridiculous.

…What Shmeur said is that you wouldn't make your Estates inherit Crossroads. So, you know, if Estates are $2 Ironmongers for you or whatever, you might buy up a whole bunch of Estates and then use Crossroads for extra draw.

Sure, if Ironmonger is available. But sometimes you won't have a card like that.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 04, 2015, 11:19:55 am
Yeah, it was done that way pretty much to prevent any form of Throne-Room + Treasure Map ever working.
No, that just fell out of trying to make it clear what Treasure Map did.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Rubby on April 04, 2015, 11:32:51 am
Yeah, it was done that way pretty much to prevent any form of Throne-Room + Treasure Map ever working.

It's the "another copy of Treasure Map from your hand" part that stops Throne Room + Treasure Map from working.

"If you do trash two Treasure Maps" could have been shortened to "If you did" and it would have changed nothing pre-Adventures.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Throwaway_bicycling on April 04, 2015, 12:22:19 pm

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.


I have to admit, the very first card that came to mind to me was Wharf. Then I realized you wouldn't get the +Action next turn as well, so it wouldn't be like the very best card ever...but still. A chainable Wharf that never draws dead would be pretty impressive. Then, on a similar theme, Library. Run your engine down, play Library, and reload.

A second class of cards that can I think really use the +Action are cards like Storeroom and Vault. Storeroom has always needed more support than is sometimes convenient, but +Action helps a lot.

There are also some attacks that are just begging to be chained, like Rabble, Witch, Goons, and even Ambassador. Also very impressive would be a self-sustaining Masquerade chain.

Finally, there are some trashers that I think (surprisingly at first, maybe) get much better. Develop, when you are using it to gain cards you really want, is improved a lot by getting an action so your following cantrip finds something nice. I still kind of suck at this game, but one problem I not infrequently have is terminal collisions with Remake and some other terminal, often an attack. Lost Arts could help me with this personal problem of mine.

So terminal draw is an obvious target, but I think there are lots of situations where Lost Arts could be amazing.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: TheOthin on April 04, 2015, 12:32:28 pm
Wharf's Duration status definitely holds back its compatibility with Lost Arts, since even in the best-case scenario you're only playing each Wharf every two turns rather than every turn. So as terrifyingly powerful as Lost Arts Wharf surely is, Wharf probably doesn't improve as much from Lost Arts as other cards, even ones that will still be weaker with Lost Arts included.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: LastFootnote on April 04, 2015, 12:38:03 pm
One way to think of it is: half of Wharf's draw is already non-terminal.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GwinnR on April 04, 2015, 12:53:49 pm
Sorry, if this has been asked and/or answered yet:
Will the inheritated Estates be the type Victory-Action for ever, so that they count for Vineyard at the end of the game?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 04, 2015, 12:58:33 pm
Sorry, if this has been asked and/or answered yet:
Will the inheritated Estates be the type Victory-Action for ever, so that they count for Vineyard at the end of the game?
They are Victory-Action cards for the rest of the game, so yes they count for Vineyard.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Throwaway_bicycling on April 04, 2015, 01:24:10 pm
One way to think of it is: half of Wharf's draw is already non-terminal.

Excellent point. This does seem like gilding the lily, when you put it that way.

And thinking a bit more about cost, you are spending $6 to make whatever it is better, so having that thing be cheaper helps. And having it be something you want to play a lot helps. So now I'm definitely fascinated by Masquerade.

Which brings me to Oracle, which suddenly becomes an Oracular Laboratory that scries even deeper than Scrying Pool.

And then to Steward, which now gets to choose whether it's a Laboratory, a non-terminal Silver, or a non-terminal trasher. Holy cow; you could build an entire strategy around that.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: brokoli on April 04, 2015, 01:30:17 pm
Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on?
My vote goes to Bridge !
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: ehunt on April 04, 2015, 02:09:48 pm
Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.

Borrow is one of my favorite events (there's two I can't really choose between). More tactical decisions almost every turn, bye bye heart breaking streaks of $7 hands in the endgame.

Lost Arts + Goons on villageless Goons boards is a game-changer. But I guess that's not different from saying that village on a villageless Goons board is a game-changer.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Awaclus on April 04, 2015, 02:22:35 pm
Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.

Borrow is one of my favorite events (there's two I can't really choose between). More tactical decisions almost every turn, bye bye heart breaking streaks of $7 hands in the endgame.

Lost Arts + Goons on villageless Goons boards is a game-changer. But I guess that's not different from saying that village on a villageless Goons board is a game-changer.

I don't think that sounds very good. You need to draw those Goons somehow anyway, and on a villageless board, I'd think I'd usually prefer Lost Artsing the draw. Lost Artsing terminal draw and drawing your deck and playing a single Goons every turn sounds a lot better than playing Goons/BM with non-terminal Goons and hoping that they collide sometimes. And in a Lab engine, Lost Artsing the Labs probably allows you to play all of your Goons anyway and gives you more flexibility.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: jonts26 on April 04, 2015, 03:39:00 pm
Lost arts would be incredibly good on minion with a couple helpful terminals.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 04, 2015, 04:17:23 pm
In a heavy Cultist game with no Trashing, Lost Arts on Ruins could possibly be the right choice.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 04, 2015, 04:23:35 pm
Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.

Borrow is one of my favorite events (there's two I can't really choose between). More tactical decisions almost every turn, bye bye heart breaking streaks of $7 hands in the endgame.

Lost Arts + Goons on villageless Goons boards is a game-changer. But I guess that's not different from saying that village on a villageless Goons board is a game-changer.

I don't think that sounds very good. You need to draw those Goons somehow anyway, and on a villageless board, I'd think I'd usually prefer Lost Artsing the draw. Lost Artsing terminal draw and drawing your deck and playing a single Goons every turn sounds a lot better than playing Goons/BM with non-terminal Goons and hoping that they collide sometimes. And in a Lab engine, Lost Artsing the Labs probably allows you to play all of your Goons anyway and gives you more flexibility.

If Lab was the draw, I think I'd prefer Lost Arts on Goons.  I'd only prefer it on Lab if there were another terminal I really, really wanted to play. Otherwise, putting it on Goons is a lot safer.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 04, 2015, 04:31:53 pm
Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.

Borrow is one of my favorite events (there's two I can't really choose between). More tactical decisions almost every turn, bye bye heart breaking streaks of $7 hands in the endgame.

Lost Arts + Goons on villageless Goons boards is a game-changer. But I guess that's not different from saying that village on a villageless Goons board is a game-changer.

I don't think that sounds very good. You need to draw those Goons somehow anyway, and on a villageless board, I'd think I'd usually prefer Lost Artsing the draw. Lost Artsing terminal draw and drawing your deck and playing a single Goons every turn sounds a lot better than playing Goons/BM with non-terminal Goons and hoping that they collide sometimes. And in a Lab engine, Lost Artsing the Labs probably allows you to play all of your Goons anyway and gives you more flexibility.

If Lab was the draw, I think I'd prefer Lost Arts on Goons.  I'd only prefer it on Lab if there were another terminal I really, really wanted to play. Otherwise, putting it on Goons is a lot safer.

It should be trivially true that if there's only 1 terminal that you want to buy, then using Lost City Arts on anything other than that terminal is wrong. Edge case - Diadem.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: joel88s on April 04, 2015, 06:31:22 pm
(Assuming you mean Lost Arts) there's no Diadem pile though.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Gherald on April 04, 2015, 06:36:12 pm
The (loathe-worthy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12624.msg478424#msg478424)) edge case is that in the case of having a Diadem you could conceivably want to put it on a non-terminal.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: joel88s on April 04, 2015, 07:08:08 pm
I see - to pile up the actions.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 04, 2015, 07:21:00 pm
Personally, I've always hated the rule that said Procession was supposed to follow its trashed cards around who-knows-where to see whether or not they had turned back into Band of Misfits. (Like some kind of "Keep Track At All Costs" rule.) Looks like Inheritance will bring that rule into play a lot more often, and many trashers will now have to follow their cards around to see whether they've changed types or, with Quarry, costs.

I couldn't agree more. The card i trashed was an action. It's not anymore, but do i need to care? If i buy a red weasel, and its fur turns white, did i buy a white weasel? Is the weasel i bought white? What about the bought weasel? Looking at "the trashed card" as "the card in the trash" over "the card that you did the trashing to" makes about as much sense as vice versa, but has much less favourable gameplay implications. For example that Procession (or any trash for benefit, actually) is assumed to have weird super-tracking skills, or that what you trash and what you get rewarded for drift apart. Alternatively, you get a mildly stronger Procession/BoM interaction. Not exactly a horrible thing to have.

Ah well, the one luxury of IRL Dominion is that you can use house rules.

Edit: Structure.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Throwaway_bicycling on April 04, 2015, 07:31:07 pm
I couldn't agree more. The card i trashed was an action. It's not anymore, but i don't care. If i buy a red weasel, and its fur turns white, did i buy a white weasel?

If only you knew how many graduate student-years of effort had been spent on the grue paradox... but for a taste, wikipedia has a reasonable synopsis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_riddle_of_induction
 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_riddle_of_induction)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Gherald on April 04, 2015, 09:01:30 pm
It just occurred to me that with events like these on the board, Possession really lets you mess with your left opponent in ways that are even meaner than using up their coin tokens.

For example you could move their Lost Arts action token from Smithy to Chancellor (after having just brazenly taken advantage of all those supercharged smithies yourself)

If you possess them super early, you could cause their Estates to inherit Ruined Village-ness and well that's not nice.

Of course you always want to do a Borrow on your last Possession and make their next turn as if you just minioned them after the Possession

Additionally, you will have called in any Reserve cards they were waiting to play...

Possession already isn't exactly a favored card of many people, and man I can just see that dislike growing with this expansion in play.

Something to be aware of.  I guess going forward, when Possession shows up in the kingdom along with Adventuresy-stuff... take a deep breath folks. You know it's probably going to be one of those games, so be a sport and ehm try to give as good as you get.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: pubby on April 04, 2015, 11:39:26 pm
Maybe this has already been said, but Borrow could be a boon for Smithy/Courtyard BM. Those decks pick up speed if you're able to buy Gold turn 3/4 and not have your Smithy miss the shuffle, and Borrow makes this likely to happen.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GwinnR on April 05, 2015, 04:43:56 am
Sorry, if this has been asked and/or answered yet:
Will the inheritated Estates be the type Victory-Action for ever, so that they count for Vineyard at the end of the game?
They are Victory-Action cards for the rest of the game, so yes they count for Vineyard.
Thanks. As also thanks for the game and your patience you have here to answer all our questions.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: dan11295 on April 05, 2015, 10:15:51 am
Question is do you ignore inheritance if Tribute is on the board? Tribute is usually a mediocre card, but suddenly your opponent is getting +2 Cards +2 Actions every time he hits an Estate. Second, given the $7 cost, and the fact you have to set aside a card in your hand, basically you are spending $7 to turn your estates into something useful. Would appear to only be worth it on board with no or weak trashing (e.g. Trade Route, Expand). Then there has to be something worth having three of on the board costing $4 or less (usually). You probably don't want 3 Sea Hags etc.

Best targets:

Baron - This synergy has already been discussed.
Tournament - If you have $7 exactly then this can really help you line up your Tournament and Province.



Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: TheOthin on April 05, 2015, 10:22:09 am
You don't set aside a card in your hand; you set aside one from the Supply.

From what I understand Tribute isn't a reason to stay away from multi-type cards so much as a lack of multi-type cards is a reason to stay away from Tribute.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 05, 2015, 10:23:07 am
, and the fact you have to set aside a card in your hand,

Wrong. You set aside a card from the supply.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: enfynet on April 05, 2015, 10:27:00 am
Also, Baron isn't really a good target. Baron is just better wit Inheritance as you can gain more Action-Estates with it.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: shmeur on April 05, 2015, 10:44:10 am
Don't hate me for this, but what about SCOUT + Inherited-Tourneys.  Scout draws out the Estataments AND the Provinces.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 05, 2015, 10:53:10 am
Don't hate me for this, but what about SCOUT + Inherited-Tourneys.  Scout draws out the Estataments AND the Provinces.

I seriously think that Scout + inheritance could be strong in a lot of situations. Maybe especially with tournament.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: joel88s on April 05, 2015, 10:55:03 am
It just occurred to me that with events like these on the board, Possession really lets you mess with your left opponent in ways that are even meaner than using up their coin tokens.

For example you could move their Lost Arts action token from Smithy to Chancellor (after having just brazenly taken advantage of all those supercharged smithies yourself)

If you possess them super early, you could cause their Estates to inherit Ruined Village-ness and well that's not nice.

Of course you always want to do a Borrow on your last Possession and make their next turn as if you just minioned them after the Possession

Additionally, you will have called in any Reserve cards they were waiting to play...

Possession already isn't exactly a favored card of many people, and man I can just see that dislike growing with this expansion in play.

Something to be aware of.  I guess going forward, when Possession shows up in the kingdom along with Adventuresy-stuff... take a deep breath folks. You know it's probably going to be one of those games, so be a sport and ehm try to give as good as you get.

Does sound pretty gruesome. Of course, we don't know yet for sure the rules about how Events/Tokens interact with Possession. Maybe Events purchased accrue to the possessor, like Cards? Maybe the possessor can move his own tokens but not the possessed's, or vice versa, or both...?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: shmeur on April 05, 2015, 11:00:59 am
Don't hate me for this, but what about SCOUT + Inherited-Tourneys.  Scout draws out the Estataments AND the Provinces.

I seriously think that Scout + inheritance could be strong in a lot of situations. Maybe especially with tournament.
And successful Tourneys can give you Followers, which give you another Estatament.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: shmeur on April 05, 2015, 11:04:33 am
Assume a kingdom of Crossroads, Great Hall, Scout, Baron, Tournament, Inheritance, and a bunch of other useless cards.  What would be the strongest 4/3 opening?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Deadlock39 on April 05, 2015, 11:05:23 am
Does sound pretty gruesome. Of course, we don't know yet for sure the rules about how Events/Tokens interact with Possession. Maybe Events purchased accrue to the possessor, like Cards? Maybe the possessor can move his own tokens but not the possessed's, or vice versa, or both...?

Those things don't sound likely because they would pretty much have to be errata on Possession, which is something Donald doesn't really do.

When you are a playing a Possession turn, it is still your opponents turn.  You are making all decisions for them. Cards they would gain are instead gained by you.  Since Events are not cards you gain, Possession says nothing about them, and they would effect the current player (your opponent) without any rule modifications (other than you making the decisions, e.g. where the tokens go).

This is similar to how VP tokens go to the Possessed player, because nothing in the Possession rules say otherwise. 
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 05, 2015, 11:05:39 am
It just occurred to me that with events like these on the board, Possession really lets you mess with your left opponent in ways that are even meaner than using up their coin tokens.

For example you could move their Lost Arts action token from Smithy to Chancellor (after having just brazenly taken advantage of all those supercharged smithies yourself)

If you possess them super early, you could cause their Estates to inherit Ruined Village-ness and well that's not nice.

Of course you always want to do a Borrow on your last Possession and make their next turn as if you just minioned them after the Possession

Additionally, you will have called in any Reserve cards they were waiting to play...

Possession already isn't exactly a favored card of many people, and man I can just see that dislike growing with this expansion in play.

Something to be aware of.  I guess going forward, when Possession shows up in the kingdom along with Adventuresy-stuff... take a deep breath folks. You know it's probably going to be one of those games, so be a sport and ehm try to give as good as you get.

Does sound pretty gruesome. Of course, we don't know yet for sure the rules about how Events/Tokens interact with Possession. Maybe Events purchased accrue to the possessor, like Cards? Maybe the possessor can move his own tokens but not the possessed's, or vice versa, or both...?

No. Gained cards only go the the possessor because possession says so on the card. It wouldn't make any sense at all for a rule to be introduced into the rule book of Adventures that changes the wording of another card. Possession would have to be reprinted with new wording which won't happen.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 05, 2015, 11:06:24 am
Don't hate me for this, but what about SCOUT + Inherited-Tourneys.  Scout draws out the Estataments AND the Provinces.

I seriously think that Scout + inheritance could be strong in a lot of situations. Maybe especially with tournament.
And successful Tourneys can give you Followers, which give you another Estatament.

Mind=blown.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: enfynet on April 05, 2015, 11:16:48 am
Assume a kingdom of Crossroads, Great Hall, Scout, Baron, Tournament, Inheritance, and a bunch of other useless cards.  What would be the strongest 4/3 opening?
Baron/Silver? Get to 7 and Inherit Tournament? Pick up a couple Scouts/Crossroads for drawing, Province, Followers?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 05, 2015, 11:17:29 am
Assume a kingdom of Crossroads, Great Hall, Scout, Baron, Tournament, Inheritance, and a bunch of other useless cards.  What would be the strongest 4/3 opening?

Baron Silver probably, because I think it's the best chance at a first-shuffle $7.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: TheOthin on April 05, 2015, 12:18:00 pm
Tournament even gives you Duchies when you're done with Prizes! It's perfect!
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: werothegreat on April 05, 2015, 12:44:34 pm
Assume a kingdom of Crossroads, Great Hall, Scout, Baron, Tournament, Inheritance, and a bunch of other useless cards.  What would be the strongest 4/3 opening?

You forgot to add Silk Road!
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: shmeur on April 05, 2015, 12:46:39 pm
Assume a kingdom of Crossroads, Great Hall, Scout, Baron, Tournament, Inheritance, and a bunch of other useless cards.  What would be the strongest 4/3 opening?

You forgot to add Silk Road!
And Trade Route and Harem too.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: enfynet on April 05, 2015, 01:27:39 pm
Assume a kingdom of Crossroads, Great Hall, Scout, Baron, Tournament, Inheritance, and a bunch of other useless cards.  What would be the strongest 4/3 opening?

You forgot to add Silk Road!
And Trade Route and Harem too.
So we need two more?

Hmmm... doesn't Adventures come with two VP kingdom cards?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Psyduck on April 05, 2015, 02:07:09 pm
The token only affects drawing, with the additional caveat that Envoy is misworded and does not draw those cards.
How about Library?  Is it serious about the word "draw"?  It's a weird kind of drawing that doesn't happen anywhere else, so I always thought of it as more like: "look at a card, maybe put it into your hand, maybe do something else," since that's how everything else does stuff like that.  Like, maybe Library it was released too early to have gotten that wording or something.

But now I'm guessing that, since it does say "draw" and you didn't mention it just now, it's probably really and truly drawing, and it's just weird.


Luckily, I don't think there's any confusion there. The token is not an Action card, so it just gets "drawn", a.k.a. removed, and then you go on with the rest of Library.
Well, if Library is really drawing, then it works like all the other draw-up-to-X cards and effectively counters the token. If it's not (for whatever reason), then it leaves the token alone.

As I haven't read any confirmation on this: Do draw-to-x cards draw past the token? I.e. will my hand contain 7 cards if I play Library while there is a -draw token on my deck (assuming this is a possible play, of course)? Or will the token count against the card limit number, so I end up with 6 cards?


Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.

I'm curious to see Steward perform. Also, Conspirator might be nice.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 05, 2015, 02:10:37 pm
As I haven't read any confirmation on this: Do draw-to-x cards draw past the token? I.e. will my hand contain 7 cards if I play Library while there is a -draw token on my deck (assuming this is a possible play, of course)? Or will the token count against the card limit number, so I end up with 6 cards?
Yes, if you play Library (and don't already have 7+ cards in hand), you go to draw a card, remove the token instead, then keep drawing until you get to 7 cards.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: markusin on April 05, 2015, 02:16:24 pm
Using Lost Arts on Navigator should be pretty cute. Way better than having the +1 Action token on Scout. I think Navigator suffers more than most Action cards from being terminal, as it makes Navigator a lot harder to use as part of a synergy.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Gherald on April 05, 2015, 02:29:28 pm
Using Lost Arts on Navigator should be pretty cute. Way better than having the +1 Action token on Scout. I think Navigator suffers more than most Action cards from being terminal, as it makes Navigator a lot harder to use as part of a synergy.
Is this a really subtle Scout joke? Because you didn't word it in a way that reads like joking.

Lost Arts on Scout is nearly the most pointless use that you could come up with.  (Why make your Scout a glorified Necropolis, when you can just put the action token on any card you actually want to play regularly?)

Even Lost Arts on Ruins is going to be more often useful than on Scout.

The completely pointless use would be Tactician, I guess.

But anyway, of course Navigator benefits and becomes a tad more like Cartographer in terms of usefulness.  It's still a rather sorry board, though, if this is your best use of Lost Arts.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: XerxesPraelor on April 05, 2015, 02:31:05 pm
Now I want to win a game by placing the Lost Arts token on Tactician
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 05, 2015, 03:46:13 pm
Using Lost Arts on Navigator should be pretty cute. Way better than having the +1 Action token on Scout. I think Navigator suffers more than most Action cards from being terminal, as it makes Navigator a lot harder to use as part of a synergy.

Note that the recent discussion about Scout is for Inheritance, not Lost Arts.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: joel88s on April 05, 2015, 03:57:57 pm
Does sound pretty gruesome. Of course, we don't know yet for sure the rules about how Events/Tokens interact with Possession. Maybe Events purchased accrue to the possessor, like Cards? Maybe the possessor can move his own tokens but not the possessed's, or vice versa, or both...?

Those things don't sound likely because they would pretty much have to be errata on Possession, which is something Donald doesn't really do.

When you are a playing a Possession turn, it is still your opponents turn.  You are making all decisions for them. Cards they would gain are instead gained by you.  Since Events are not cards you gain, Possession says nothing about them, and they would effect the current player (your opponent) without any rule modifications (other than you making the decisions, e.g. where the tokens go).

This is similar to how VP tokens go to the Possessed player, because nothing in the Possession rules say otherwise. 

No. Gained cards only go the the possessor because possession says so on the card. It wouldn't make any sense at all for a rule to be introduced into the rule book of Adventures that changes the wording of another card. Possession would have to be reprinted with new wording which won't happen.
 
Clearly Possession says nothing about Events or Tokens, which didn't exist till a couple of weeks from now, just as it says nothing about VP tokens. And I think equally clearly Possession is not going to be reprinted.

I disagree that new rules or 'FAQ' regarding pre-existing cards are categorically impossible or senseless. "Here's a new game concept, it has its own rules. Tokens: Rule N: Tokens [or the following Tokens, or cards on the Tavern mat] may not be moved by a Possessing player." Period. If you make the game you can make the rules that you think make it play the best.

However if as you say Donald is disinclined to anything resembling back-editing, then you're probably right that these nightmare-combos will not be excluded, and fall like Pos/Amb etc. into the learn-the-hard-way category. Although the difference is, once you learn you can avoid buying Amb if Possession is in the game, but you can't prevent an Event from being available, at least not directly.

I can see how the ensuing bloodbaths of Ruined Estates could be amusing though. And of course we literally haven't seen the half of them.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: markusin on April 05, 2015, 05:47:50 pm
Using Lost Arts on Navigator should be pretty cute. Way better than having the +1 Action token on Scout. I think Navigator suffers more than most Action cards from being terminal, as it makes Navigator a lot harder to use as part of a synergy.
Is this a really subtle Scout joke? Because you didn't word it in a way that reads like joking.

Lost Arts on Scout is nearly the most pointless use that you could come up with.  (Why make your Scout a glorified Necropolis, when you can just put the action token on any card you actually want to play regularly?)

Even Lost Arts on Ruins is going to be more often useful than on Scout.

The completely pointless use would be Tactician, I guess.

But anyway, of course Navigator benefits and becomes a tad more like Cartographer in terms of usefulness.  It's still a rather sorry board, though, if this is your best use of Lost Arts.
This is not meant to be a joke. I find it quite interesting that Navigator and Scout both have the reordering ability, but adding +1 Action to Navigator is way more useful than giving it to Scout. Like, why does Navigator being nonterminal seem so much better? Well, Navigator gives +$2, and can discard 5 junk cards, whereas Scout can only deal with VP cards.

The again, you probably wouldn't want more than a couple of Navigators.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Beyond Awesome on April 05, 2015, 06:47:07 pm
Since I forgot to give my power level thoughts on these events, I doubt I would do so.

Lost Arts seems pretty strong. It can create Anything that gives +Action into a village. If you already have a smooth engine, it allows you to add further reliability by making a terminal into a non-terminal. Putting this on an Envoy or Smithy would be pretty awesome. On super strong engine boards, you might be able to skip this where the village support and trashing are really good. Also, this won't be much good in slogs.

Borrow: Now, this is a nice card. So, for the rest of the game, I essentially have a coin token available to me, but with the drawback of not being able to buy a card. I can really see this getting used a lot. It guarantees a $5 opening. On a 5/2 with Baker, we can live the dream an open a $7. Anyway, how often have we wanted to hit a certain price point but were a $1 short. Quit often. So, yah, I think this will be pretty good, but not super powerful.

Inheritance: Oh man. Already, this is my favorite card from the set. It's so beautiful. I love how it costs $7. Dominion is sorely lacking in cards at that price point. Anyway, even if strong trashing, you might still want to buy this if there are $4 or under costs really worth getting. Then, suddenly estates are now super estates. With cost reducers, estates can sometimes even become a $5 cost or higher!!! I'm not sure how powerful this card will actually be, but I know it will be a lot of fun, and finally we have a card that makes estates matter (except Silk Roads).
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Flip5ide on April 05, 2015, 06:47:54 pm
Anyone else feel Borrow's card art is way out of place?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Beyond Awesome on April 05, 2015, 06:56:23 pm
Anyone else feel Borrow's card art is way out of place?

It looks like Dominion art from other expansions. lol. Overall though, the art for this expansion is pretty amazing. Did RGG decide to give this set a larger budget than normal or something?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: markusin on April 05, 2015, 07:49:18 pm
Anyone else feel Borrow's card art is way out of place?

It looks like Dominion art from other expansions. lol. Overall though, the art for this expansion is pretty amazing. Did RGG decide to give this set a larger budget than normal or something?
For the most part I agree. But I'm sorry, in Giant's art it looks like someone photoshopped someone's head on top of the giant's shoulders. It looks too life-like compared to the rest of the art. Uncanny Valley, man.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 05, 2015, 08:34:33 pm
I don't mind strange art. Dominion had varying styles from the start and i appreciate that variety. There will be some images that look goofy or off, but i still like how it gives cards their own character.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: silvern on April 05, 2015, 08:43:54 pm
Man, looking at these things, I feel like the whole point of this expansion was just a way for Donald to get the Rules Questions section flowing again…..
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: chipperMDW on April 05, 2015, 10:18:14 pm
Borrow: Now, this is a nice card. So, for the rest of the game, I essentially have a coin token available to me, but with the drawback of not being able to buy a card.
But it doesn't really cost you the ability to buy a card, does it? I mean, you have to use a Buy to get its effect, but then it gives you the +1 Buy back. So it's like a "buytrip."
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: enfynet on April 05, 2015, 10:57:36 pm
Borrow: Now, this is a nice card. So, for the rest of the game, I essentially have a coin token available to me, but with the drawback of not being able to buy a card.
But it doesn't really cost you the ability to buy a card, does it? I mean, you have to use a Buy to get its effect, but then it gives you the +1 Buy back. So it's like a "buytrip."
Agreed. Costing $0 and returning the Buy you used essentially makes it a "free" coin, like the coin token analogy, with the drawback being the restriction on your next draw.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: AJD on April 05, 2015, 11:05:58 pm
Borrow: Now, this is a nice card. So, for the rest of the game, I essentially have a coin token available to me, but with the drawback of not being able to buy a card.
But it doesn't really cost you the ability to buy a card, does it? I mean, you have to use a Buy to get its effect, but then it gives you the +1 Buy back. So it's like a "buytrip."
Agreed. Costing $0 and returning the Buy you used essentially makes it a "free" coin, like the coin token analogy, with the drawback being the restriction on your next draw.

…It's an Oasis variant, isn't it.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: werothegreat on April 06, 2015, 12:31:25 am
I just realized Borrow makes Scavenger/Stash even more reliable.  There's no chance of drawing your second Scavenger, and it makes the combo immune to Minions.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: popsofctown on April 06, 2015, 02:42:12 am
I just realized Borrow makes Scavenger/Stash even more reliable.  There's no chance of drawing your second Scavenger, and it makes the combo immune to Minions.

4 Card interaction! *pulls fire alarm of relevance*
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 06, 2015, 02:48:31 am
I just realized Borrow makes Scavenger/Stash even more reliable.  There's no chance of drawing your second Scavenger, and it makes the combo immune to Minions.

4 Card interaction! *pulls fire alarm of relevance*

Minion is not required and Borrow not a kingdom card, though.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Gherald on April 06, 2015, 02:59:41 am
Scavenger/Stash is a thing. So wero's point is that adding Borrow makes it foolproof, and as a bonus it can't be minioned away.
Quote
Borrow not a kingdom card, though.
He didn't specify kingdom cards, and this is of almost no significance to the point of relevance. You're only slightly more likely to see a given event card than a given kingdom card in combination with whatever else.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Beyond Awesome on April 06, 2015, 06:26:48 am
Borrow: Now, this is a nice card. So, for the rest of the game, I essentially have a coin token available to me, but with the drawback of not being able to buy a card.
But it doesn't really cost you the ability to buy a card, does it? I mean, you have to use a Buy to get its effect, but then it gives you the +1 Buy back. So it's like a "buytrip."

I meant to say give up a draw. That was a typo on my behalf.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Elanchana on April 06, 2015, 07:30:44 pm
I feel like there's a fair amount of timing strategy involved in Lost Arts. Suppose there was a specific terminal you wanted to de-terminalize, but you're having a hard time getting to $6. Do you buy more of that terminal, to win the split? Do you buy more money, to help you get Lost Arts? Do you buy other components that you need for your deck? I know timing questions are everywhere in Dominion, but Lost Arts seems to put a new spin on them.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: blueblimp on April 06, 2015, 08:14:17 pm
I forget whether this has been mentioned already, but one thing strong about Lost Arts in uniform-random kingdoms is that it's a village that doesn't occupy a kingdom slot. That means you have 10 other kingdom cards that could complement a village in an engine, instead of just 9, as is the case with other villages.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: LastFootnote on April 06, 2015, 08:19:02 pm
Another strong thing about Lost Arts is absolutely everything. It's super strong.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Gherald on April 06, 2015, 08:36:06 pm
Yes, and a bargain as a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png) cost.

Since you only have one +1 action token, I think that price point makes sense to have it be less swingy.  Seems like it'll be a must-buy upwards of 90% of the time
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GreyICE on April 06, 2015, 08:46:12 pm
Lost Arts is less an engine component, and more an engine creator.  It turns all sorts of random stuff into an engine. 

Take Conspirator.  On its own, hard to build around, because multiples gum up your hand, so you get to add it as grease to the engine.  Add Lost Arts and you can just collide Conspirators as much as you want.  Buy as many as you want!  It's absurd. 

A lot of +2 card cards become much stronger as Labs.  Oracle-Labs, Moat-Labs, these are all cards you can gain rapidly and turn into an engine. 

Attaching this to any duration card is obscene.  Wharf with a side of village on the 2nd?  Sure! 

I don't know if it's a strong buy in a board with a strong engine.  I think it's not a great $6 for that.  It's more about making an engine from scratch. 
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on April 06, 2015, 08:49:34 pm
Attaching this to any duration card is obscene.  Wharf with a side of village on the 2nd?  Sure! 
+action token only works the turn the card is played, so no extra bonus with Durations. The Duration aspect is generally a drawback with the token, though of course a Duration might still be the best target.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: TheOthin on April 06, 2015, 09:41:01 pm
I want to reiterate the previous concern that Duration cards will miss shuffles, especially in engines, and as a result they will be played less often than non-Duration cards, potentially as little as half as much. (Or less in the case of longer Durations like Hireling.) So you'll get fewer Actions out of putting Lost Arts on a Duration as you will out of putting it on a card you play more often. Reserves have the same concern.

Being terminal draw, Wharf is probably the best Duration target for Lost Arts, but you'd probably get more of a power jump by sticking it on something like Smithy or Moat. Those also have the benefit of being cheaper, especially Moat, so it's easier to have more copies of them so that you get the +1 Action more often. Moat/Lost Arts actually strikes me as a very potent synergy that will probably make Attacks laughable and make the Moat split critical, since who could say no to $2 Labs?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GreyICE on April 07, 2015, 12:06:12 pm
Attaching this to any duration card is obscene.  Wharf with a side of village on the 2nd?  Sure! 
+action token only works the turn the card is played, so no extra bonus with Durations. The Duration aspect is generally a drawback with the token, though of course a Duration might still be the best target.
Oh.  Well there goes my dreams of having the most absurd double Wharf turn ever. 

*sigh*

I suppose Wharf is probably still a good card anyway.   ;)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: pst on April 07, 2015, 04:42:08 pm
Uh, estates play like they are the card without ever taking on the card's nameship. If you played Estate as Treasure Map and then trashed Treasure Map from the hand, I think that would work.

You could play Estate as Treasure Map and then trash a (real) Treasure Map from your hand, but you will not get any Gold because you did not "trash 2 Treasure Maps."

It wouldn't surprise me if there are translations of Dominion cards that previously were thought to mean the same, but that with Inheritance will mean something else than the original, like in this case. (Not that I know of any.)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jeebus on April 07, 2015, 05:52:29 pm
The only time you would place that token on your deck is when you buy the event at the end of your turn, then it is removed immediately when you draw your cards for your next hand, so you would never have to reveal cards while the token is on your deck right?

I thought the same as bedlam here, but nobody replied to his post. Can somebody tell me how you can ever reveal cards from your deck when it has -1 Card token on it?

Assuming it's possible, I have another question that was asked and not replied to:

The token only affects drawing, with the additional caveat that Envoy is misworded and does not draw those cards.
How about Library?  Is it serious about the word "draw"?  It's a weird kind of drawing that doesn't happen anywhere else, so I always thought of it as more like: "look at a card, maybe put it into your hand, maybe do something else," since that's how everything else does stuff like that.  Like, maybe Library was released too early to have gotten that wording or something.

But now I'm guessing that, since it does say "draw" and you didn't mention it just now, it's probably really and truly drawing, and it's just weird.

Yeah, what does Library actually do? I never thought it would matter (I even said so in another thread), but now it seems like we have to know.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 07, 2015, 05:55:22 pm
The only time you would place that token on your deck is when you buy the event at the end of your turn, then it is removed immediately when you draw your cards for your next hand, so you would never have to reveal cards while the token is on your deck right?

I thought the same as bedlam here, but bobody replied to his post. Can somebody tell me how you can ever reveal cards from your deck when it has -1 Card token on it?

Assuming it's possible, I have another question that was asked and not replied to:

The token only affects drawing, with the additional caveat that Envoy is misworded and does not draw those cards.
How about Library?  Is it serious about the word "draw"?  It's a weird kind of drawing that doesn't happen anywhere else, so I always thought of it as more like: "look at a card, maybe put it into your hand, maybe do something else," since that's how everything else does stuff like that.  Like, maybe Library was released too early to have gotten that wording or something.

But now I'm guessing that, since it does say "draw" and you didn't mention it just now, it's probably really and truly drawing, and it's just weird.

Yeah, what does Library actually do? I never thought it would matter (I even said so in another thread), but now it seems like we have to know.

It is very likely that the -1 Card token will be used for more than just the one revealed Event.  It might be used for a penalty on some powerful action card, or as part of an Attack.

Library draws past the -1 Card token.  It's been confirmed in this thread already.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Witherweaver on April 07, 2015, 05:57:11 pm
I think Library draws.  You draw a card.  If it's an Action, you may choose to set it aside. You keep doing that until there are seven cards in your hand. 

Presumably if there were a -1 Card token on your deck, Library would plow through it.  The first time, you wouldn't draw a card because of the token, and move the token.  Then you'd just keep going and draw until you have seven.

PPE: eHalycon said it.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: pacovf on April 07, 2015, 05:57:48 pm
The only time you would place that token on your deck is when you buy the event at the end of your turn, then it is removed immediately when you draw your cards for your next hand, so you would never have to reveal cards while the token is on your deck right?

I thought the same as bedlam here, but bobody replied to his post. Can somebody tell me how you can ever reveal cards from your deck when it has -1 Card token on it?

Doctor overpay, for example. Although I guess you are technically looking at them.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Deadlock39 on April 07, 2015, 06:00:06 pm
I'm pretty sure revealing was also explained in this thread already.  The token doesn't interact with revealing, so if you are resolving an effect that reveals the top card(s) of your deck, you move the token, reveal the cards, (possibly put them back) and the move the token back.

The token gets removed instead of drawing a card the next time you would draw a card. Any other mechanics (e.g. revealing), it doesn't interact with.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: werothegreat on April 07, 2015, 06:01:07 pm
The only time you would place that token on your deck is when you buy the event at the end of your turn, then it is removed immediately when you draw your cards for your next hand, so you would never have to reveal cards while the token is on your deck right?

I thought the same as bedlam here, but bobody replied to his post. Can somebody tell me how you can ever reveal cards from your deck when it has -1 Card token on it?

Doctor overpay, for example. Although I guess you are technically looking at them.

Revealing and looking are not drawing; neither is putting in your hand.  You just reveal/look past the token, and put it back when you're done.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Deadlock39 on April 07, 2015, 06:01:40 pm

Chancellor is another interesting effect with regard to the token.  I suspect, the token will remain on your (now empty) deck that was moved out from under it and into the discard.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Witherweaver on April 07, 2015, 06:02:03 pm
It is very likely that the -1 Card token will be used for more than just the one revealed Event.  It might be used for a penalty on some powerful action card, or as part of an Attack.


Yeah, like maybe you can throw it at  your opponent, and if it hits a card in their hand, they have to discard that card.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Deadlock39 on April 07, 2015, 06:04:00 pm
It is very likely that the -1 Card token will be used for more than just the one revealed Event.  It might be used for a penalty on some powerful action card, or as part of an Attack.


Yeah, like maybe you can throw it at  your opponent, and if it hits a card in their hand, they have to discard that card.

Maybe there is a reaction that lets you tear it up and throw it at your opponents play area when they play an attack. Any card a piece touches is trashed.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: pacovf on April 07, 2015, 06:05:04 pm
The only time you would place that token on your deck is when you buy the event at the end of your turn, then it is removed immediately when you draw your cards for your next hand, so you would never have to reveal cards while the token is on your deck right?

I thought the same as bedlam here, but bobody replied to his post. Can somebody tell me how you can ever reveal cards from your deck when it has -1 Card token on it?

Doctor overpay, for example. Although I guess you are technically looking at them.

Revealing and looking are not drawing; neither is putting in your hand.  You just reveal/look past the token, and put it back when you're done.

I think he is asking how it is possible to reveal cards from your deck after you buy Borrow but before you draw your new hand (which consumes the token).
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jeebus on April 07, 2015, 06:10:33 pm
I didn't ask about how to resolve revealing/looking at cards with the token on your deck. I know that has already been explained. I asked the same as bedlam (who I quoted), namely how that situation could even arise. But eHalcyon answered it, thanks. I was just looking at Borrow, but there are probably other cards.

Searching more thoroughly, I did find Donald's answer to the Library question.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Alsterschwan on April 08, 2015, 07:04:17 am
If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.
Does "another copy of treasure map" refers back "trash this" to be also a treasure map?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Gveoniz on April 08, 2015, 07:13:03 am
If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.
Does "another copy of treasure map" refers back "trash this" to be also a treasure map?
I don't think so, but:

Quote
Trash this and another copy of Treasure Map from your hand. If you do trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Alsterschwan on April 08, 2015, 07:16:15 am
If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.
Does "another copy of treasure map" refers back "trash this" to be also a treasure map?
I don't think so, but:

Quote
Trash this and another copy of Treasure Map from your hand. If you do trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck.
Ah, OK. Thanks.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GwinnR on April 08, 2015, 11:35:51 am
If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.
Does "another copy of treasure map" refers back "trash this" to be also a treasure map?
I just wanted to ask the same question. It is clear, that you won't gain Golds with this move, but I'm not sure, if you really should be allowed to trash the Estate Map.
Fo me it looks so, that "this" actually refers to "another copy of Treasure Map". Sometimes, if you have to trash or may trash the played card, it tells you to trash "this card" (e.g. Mining Village). As it is here only "this" without "card", I think, that it is meant as "(this and another) copy of Treasure Map", so "this" has to be a Treasure Map too. (Sure, Urchin and Hermit also only say "this", but there is no confusion with the meaning of it.)

So, my solution would be, that you play Estate Map and do, what it says, if possible:
1) Trash this copy of Treasure Map. --> Not possible
2) Trash another copy of Treasure Map from your hand. --> I'm not sure. You can trash a Treasure Map from your hand, but it isn't really "another".
3) If you do trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck. --> You didn't, so you don't get Gold.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Dominionaer on April 08, 2015, 11:59:04 am
Fo me it looks so, that "this" actually refers to "another copy of Treasure Map". Sometimes, if you have to trash or may trash the played card, it tells you to trash "this card" (e.g. Mining Village). As it is here only "this" without "card", I think, that it is meant as "(this and another) copy of Treasure Map", so "this" has to be a Treasure Map too.
AFAIK "this" is always the same as "this card".

1) Trash this copy of Treasure Map. --> Not possible
Possible. It get trashed like a solo TM.

2) Trash another copy of Treasure Map from your hand. --> I'm not sure. You can trash a Treasure Map from your hand, but it isn't really "another".
you are right, you have to trash that TM. You are right, it is not "another".

3) If you do trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck. --> You didn't, so you don't get Gold.
Correct
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Dominionaer on April 08, 2015, 12:04:53 pm
Quote
Trash this and another copy of Treasure Map from your hand. If you do trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck.

problem : german card read "if you did" instead "if you trash 2 TM"
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Watno on April 08, 2015, 12:11:13 pm
On the plus side, the German wording of Envoy and Pirate Ships has the intended effects while the English one doesn't.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 08, 2015, 12:28:58 pm
If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.
Does "another copy of treasure map" refers back "trash this" to be also a treasure map?
I just wanted to ask the same question. It is clear, that you won't gain Golds with this move, but I'm not sure, if you really should be allowed to trash the Estate Map.
Fo me it looks so, that "this" actually refers to "another copy of Treasure Map". Sometimes, if you have to trash or may trash the played card, it tells you to trash "this card" (e.g. Mining Village). As it is here only "this" without "card", I think, that it is meant as "(this and another) copy of Treasure Map", so "this" has to be a Treasure Map too. (Sure, Urchin and Hermit also only say "this", but there is no confusion with the meaning of it.)

So, my solution would be, that you play Estate Map and do, what it says, if possible:
1) Trash this copy of Treasure Map. --> Not possible
2) Trash another copy of Treasure Map from your hand. --> I'm not sure. You can trash a Treasure Map from your hand, but it isn't really "another".
3) If you do trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck. --> You didn't, so you don't get Gold.
When you play Estate-Map, which you never will, not once, that is the territory we are in and that's fine people like to poke at the rules but let's just keep that in mind shall we, you trash it. It says "trash this" and the next bit saying "another" shouldn't change that.

You trash the you'll-never-have-one-of-these Estate-map, trash a real Treasure Map if you can, and then nothing else happens since you didn't trash two real Maps. "Another" doesn't make sense there in this case, yes.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 08, 2015, 12:44:53 pm
Discussing things that you'll actually do is no where near as fun as discussing insane edge cases that won't ever happen!
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: AJD on April 08, 2015, 12:53:03 pm
When you play Estate-Map, which you never will, not once, that is the territory we are in and that's fine people like to poke at the rules but let's just keep that in mind shall we

(This is true, of course, but one of the reasons no one will ever play Estate-Map is because you're on here clarifying the rules about what would happen if they did.)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 08, 2015, 01:26:33 pm
When you play Estate-Map, which you never will, not once, that is the territory we are in and that's fine people like to poke at the rules but let's just keep that in mind shall we

(This is true, of course, but one of the reasons no one will ever play Estate-Map is because you're on here clarifying the rules about what would happen if they did.)
But that's covered by the ruling on the "if you do trash two Treasure Maps" part. Once you aren't getting the treasure, the rest of it is not so exciting.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GwinnR on April 08, 2015, 02:38:11 pm
Ok. Thanks again!
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: blueblimp on April 08, 2015, 05:09:10 pm
When you play Estate-Map, which you never will, not once
It's unlikely, but maybe it's a 1-in-1000 kind of play. People sometimes buy Mint just to trash coppers even if they don't want the Mint effect, and inheriting Treasure Maps is kinda similar but for Estates. There has to be nothing better to inherit (at $4 or less), and nothing better to do with $7 than a delayed trash of your Estates. The kind of kingdom to make this happen would need copper trashing but no estate trashing (apart from the inherit map combo), and a powerful engine payload but weak-or-no draw. Something like Treasure Map, Moneylender, Goons, Bazaar is pretty close, although maybe the payload is not quite blockbuster enough.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: scott_pilgrim on April 08, 2015, 05:42:53 pm
When you play Estate-Map, which you never will, not once
It's unlikely, but maybe it's a 1-in-1000 kind of play. People sometimes buy Mint just to trash coppers even if they don't want the Mint effect, and inheriting Treasure Maps is kinda similar but for Estates. There has to be nothing better to inherit (at $4 or less), and nothing better to do with $7 than a delayed trash of your Estates. The kind of kingdom to make this happen would need copper trashing but no estate trashing (apart from the inherit map combo), and a powerful engine payload but weak-or-no draw. Something like Treasure Map, Moneylender, Goons, Bazaar is pretty close, although maybe the payload is not quite blockbuster enough.

But if you're buying Inheritance, you can almost always play it on another card so that you're Estates do something better than terminally trash themselves (and you get the extra 3 VP that way).  There would basically have to be no other $4 or cheaper cards in the kingdom, and yet still be a board where you want to trash your Estates (and you're willing to pay $7 to do it very slowly), AND you have to have Treasure Map and Inheritance in the kingdom.  I think it's a lot less than 1 in 1000.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: TheOthin on April 08, 2015, 05:45:12 pm
Pearl Diver in the kingdom means you can turn your Estates into slightly improved Great Halls instantaneously rather than having to draw and burn Actions on each of them, which is like 100x better than Estate Maps.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 08, 2015, 05:50:35 pm
Pearl Diver in the kingdom means you can turn your Estates into slightly improved Great Halls instantaneously rather than having to draw and burn Actions on each of them, which is like 100x better than Estate Maps.

But Goons is a discard attack!
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 08, 2015, 05:51:31 pm
Clearly this is just one more reason why Making Fun needs to implement achievements.

Misleading Maps -- Trash 3 pairs of Estates via Treasure Map Inheritance. 
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2015, 06:08:14 pm
Clearly there no trashing on the board save Treasure Map itself and yet you desperately need to trigger Market Square.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2015, 06:08:48 pm
Clearly this is just one more reason why Making Fun needs to implement achievements.

Misleading Maps -- Trash 3 pairs of Estates via Treasure Map Inheritance.

I think you mean just "3 Estates" not "3 pairs of Estates".  Or 6 Estates, if you want.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 08, 2015, 06:15:45 pm
Clearly this is just one more reason why Making Fun needs to implement achievements.

Misleading Maps -- Trash 3 pairs of Estates via Treasure Map Inheritance.

I think you mean just "3 Estates" not "3 pairs of Estates".  Or 6 Estates, if you want.

Oh shoot.  I mean:

Misleading Maps -- Trash 3 sets of (Treasure Map-inherited) Estate and Treasure Map.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2015, 06:18:52 pm
Clearly there no trashing on the board save Treasure Map itself and yet you desperately need to trigger Market Square.

And I mean, look, for just $7 you can trash all three starting Estates whenever you want.  This would cost $12 with buying Treasure Maps themselves.  (Or just $8 to get the 4-gold bonus.)  And you're still stuck with your starting Estates.  Either way, a $7 now for three Golds and three less Estates later is a deal!
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Arctic Penguin on April 08, 2015, 06:21:16 pm
Hmm, how can we find a use for Estate Maps... Well it's a stretch but here goes!

Your opponent goes for Treasure Maps and then Embargoes them multiple times after getting two. You set up a Market Square megaturn, but there's no trashing available and buying a Treasure Map will waste a turn and clog your deck with curses. On a 7$ hand, you buy Inheritance to turn your Estates into Treasure Maps so you can trash them to activate a big hand full of Market Squares. You draw your deck with Storytellers and trash one Estate Map at a time to discard all of your Market Squares for lots of Gold. Then you spend 3 Golds and another Storyteller to draw 10 cards, mostly your discarded Market Squares and newly gained Golds. You repeat this until you run out of Storytellers or Estate Maps and then you end the game with tons of money and all of your extra Market Square buys.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: shmeur on April 08, 2015, 06:24:38 pm
Possession somebody to force their Estate token on Treasure Map.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 08, 2015, 06:25:26 pm
Maybe you want to trash down but can not trash VP cards (e.g. Moneylender/Spice Merchant).
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Holger on April 09, 2015, 05:59:03 am
Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
Why? The if clause still prevents you from using it more than once that turn.

So what's the point of the "once per turn" clause here? Buying Borrow more than once per turn would make no sense anyway, since there's no Treasure cards that "draw" cards (and thus remove the -1 Card token) AFAICS. Is it just for clarity, or due to some unrevealed Adventures cards?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: SCSN on April 09, 2015, 06:26:56 am
Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
Why? The if clause still prevents you from using it more than once that turn.

So what's the point of the "once per turn" clause here? Buying Borrow more than once per turn would make no sense anyway, since there's no Treasure cards that "draw" cards (and thus remove the -1 Card token) AFAICS. Is it just for clarity, or due to some unrevealed Adventures cards?

Without the "once per turn" clause the best strategy on a Borrow board would be for P1 to keep buying Borrow on T1 until his opponent either resigns or dies of despair.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 09, 2015, 07:33:30 am
Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
Why? The if clause still prevents you from using it more than once that turn.

So what's the point of the "once per turn" clause here? Buying Borrow more than once per turn would make no sense anyway, since there's no Treasure cards that "draw" cards (and thus remove the -1 Card token) AFAICS. Is it just for clarity, or due to some unrevealed Adventures cards?

Without the "once per turn" clause the best strategy on a Borrow board would be for P1 to keep buying Borrow on T1 until his opponent either resigns or dies of despair.

...which is why repeatedly revealing Moat ruins so many games.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Emeric on April 09, 2015, 07:43:31 am
I am sorry if the question have already asked but I just think it. If there is a token on a card (exemple a +1 action on Envoy) and I buy Inheritance to put my estate token on Envoy. Do my estate gain also the +1 action ?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Squidd on April 09, 2015, 07:50:10 am
The token gives you an action when you play a card from that pile, and your Estates are not from that pile.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Beyond Awesome on April 09, 2015, 06:53:07 pm
The token gives you an action when you play a card from that pile, and your Estates are not from that pile.

Yup, but if you're +1 Action token was on the estate pile...
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2015, 07:13:23 pm
The token gives you an action when you play a card from that pile, and your Estates are not from that pile.

Yup, but if you're +1 Action token was on the estate pile...

That pile ain't yours, son!
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 09, 2015, 07:20:02 pm
The token gives you an action when you play a card from that pile, and your Estates are not from that pile.

Yup, but if you're +1 Action token was on the estate pile...

That pile ain't yours, son!

True. While Donald allready explained that starting Estates come from the Estate pile (so they are "cards from that pile"), Estates in the supply are not Action cards, and you can not put the Lost Arts token on them.

Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
Why? The if clause still prevents you from using it more than once that turn.

So what's the point of the "once per turn" clause here? Buying Borrow more than once per turn would make no sense anyway, since there's no Treasure cards that "draw" cards (and thus remove the -1 Card token) AFAICS. Is it just for clarity, or due to some unrevealed Adventures cards?

You could:
1. King's Court all your Market Squares to get immmense amounts of buys
2. Play five Highways
3. Buy Borrow, getting +$1
4. Buy Cultist for $0
5. Trash it with Watchtower, drawing 3-1 cards
6. Repeat steps 3. to 5., getting +$1 and +2 cards per buy until either the Cultist pile or your buys run out
7. Spend your last buy on Colony, or buy some Farmlands to trash something you drew, or whatever you plan to do with a bunch of cards and/or +$1s

The same works with Rats, just here the pile doesn't run out as fast and you don't draw as much. Obviously it's still rather constructed, so there might just as well be some Adventures cards behind this.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: sudgy on April 09, 2015, 07:23:03 pm
Clearly there no trashing on the board save Treasure Map itself and yet you desperately need to trigger Market Square.

I have many extra actions, play four Estates as Treasure Maps, discarding four Market Squares for Golds, using Watchtower to topdeck them.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 09, 2015, 07:25:37 pm
Clearly there no trashing on the board save Treasure Map itself and yet you desperately need to trigger Market Square.

I have many extra actions, play four Estates as Treasure Maps, discarding four Market Squares for Golds, using Watchtower to topdeck them.

Couldn't you just, you know, use Watchtower to trash a bought Copper? That might have a slightly lower opportunity cost...

Or were you being ironic?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 09, 2015, 07:28:49 pm
Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
Why? The if clause still prevents you from using it more than once that turn.

So what's the point of the "once per turn" clause here? Buying Borrow more than once per turn would make no sense anyway, since there's no Treasure cards that "draw" cards (and thus remove the -1 Card token) AFAICS. Is it just for clarity, or due to some unrevealed Adventures cards?

Without the "once per turn" clause the best strategy on a Borrow board would be for P1 to keep buying Borrow on T1 until his opponent either resigns or dies of despair.
That's more or less the reason. "Once per turn" was happening anyway (it's on Mission), and here was an Event that cost $0 and gave you your Buy back. LF complained that you could buy it repeatedly. So it says "once per turn." I did not realize that some people would read that as "every turn for the rest of the game."
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: pacovf on April 09, 2015, 07:32:05 pm
Man, LastFootnote, this is why we can't have nice things.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 09, 2015, 07:34:48 pm
Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
Why? The if clause still prevents you from using it more than once that turn.

So what's the point of the "once per turn" clause here? Buying Borrow more than once per turn would make no sense anyway, since there's no Treasure cards that "draw" cards (and thus remove the -1 Card token) AFAICS. Is it just for clarity, or due to some unrevealed Adventures cards?

Without the "once per turn" clause the best strategy on a Borrow board would be for P1 to keep buying Borrow on T1 until his opponent either resigns or dies of despair.
That's more or less the reason. "Once per turn" was happening anyway (it's on Mission), and here was an Event that cost $0 and gave you your Buy back. LF complained that you could buy it repeatedly. So it says "once per turn." I did not realize that some people would read that as "every turn for the rest of the game."

Wait, so i don't get my buy back? But it says "once per turn" only after the +1 buy  :o
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 09, 2015, 07:39:35 pm
The token gives you an action when you play a card from that pile, and your Estates are not from that pile.

Yup, but if you're +1 Action token was on the estate pile...

That pile ain't yours, son!

Although you can't use lost arts to put an action token on the estate pile, it's at least possible that another card would allow you to do so. Nothing in the action token rules prevent it from being on the estate pile. Highly unlikely, though.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 09, 2015, 07:48:58 pm
Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
Why? The if clause still prevents you from using it more than once that turn.

So what's the point of the "once per turn" clause here? Buying Borrow more than once per turn would make no sense anyway, since there's no Treasure cards that "draw" cards (and thus remove the -1 Card token) AFAICS. Is it just for clarity, or due to some unrevealed Adventures cards?

Without the "once per turn" clause the best strategy on a Borrow board would be for P1 to keep buying Borrow on T1 until his opponent either resigns or dies of despair.
That's more or less the reason. "Once per turn" was happening anyway (it's on Mission), and here was an Event that cost $0 and gave you your Buy back. LF complained that you could buy it repeatedly. So it says "once per turn." I did not realize that some people would read that as "every turn for the rest of the game."

Wait, so i don't get my buy back? But it says "once per turn" only after the +1 buy  :o

Not quite clear what you're asking, you get +1 buy when you buy it, so you get your buy back. But I also am curious why the "once per turn" is not before the +1 buy. I guess it's just astetics, but it is a bit confusing if "once per turn" means "you can only buy this event once per turn."
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 09, 2015, 08:00:07 pm
Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
Why? The if clause still prevents you from using it more than once that turn.

So what's the point of the "once per turn" clause here? Buying Borrow more than once per turn would make no sense anyway, since there's no Treasure cards that "draw" cards (and thus remove the -1 Card token) AFAICS. Is it just for clarity, or due to some unrevealed Adventures cards?

Without the "once per turn" clause the best strategy on a Borrow board would be for P1 to keep buying Borrow on T1 until his opponent either resigns or dies of despair.
That's more or less the reason. "Once per turn" was happening anyway (it's on Mission), and here was an Event that cost $0 and gave you your Buy back. LF complained that you could buy it repeatedly. So it says "once per turn." I did not realize that some people would read that as "every turn for the rest of the game."

Wait, so i don't get my buy back? But it says "once per turn" only after the +1 buy  :o

Not quite clear what you're asking, you get +1 buy when you buy it, so you get your buy back. But I also am curious why the "once per turn" is not before the +1 buy. I guess it's just astetics, but it is a bit confusing if "once per turn" means "you can only buy this event once per turn."
You can only buy it once per turn. It's aesthetics. It was a question, which way to say it on the card, and you see what we picked.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 09, 2015, 08:27:37 pm
Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
Why? The if clause still prevents you from using it more than once that turn.

So what's the point of the "once per turn" clause here? Buying Borrow more than once per turn would make no sense anyway, since there's no Treasure cards that "draw" cards (and thus remove the -1 Card token) AFAICS. Is it just for clarity, or due to some unrevealed Adventures cards?

Without the "once per turn" clause the best strategy on a Borrow board would be for P1 to keep buying Borrow on T1 until his opponent either resigns or dies of despair.
That's more or less the reason. "Once per turn" was happening anyway (it's on Mission), and here was an Event that cost $0 and gave you your Buy back. LF complained that you could buy it repeatedly. So it says "once per turn." I did not realize that some people would read that as "every turn for the rest of the game."

Wait, so i don't get my buy back? But it says "once per turn" only after the +1 buy  :o

Not quite clear what you're asking, you get +1 buy when you buy it, so you get your buy back. But I also am curious why the "once per turn" is not before the +1 buy. I guess it's just astetics, but it is a bit confusing if "once per turn" means "you can only buy this event once per turn."

I figured that "Once per turn" was part of the effect you get on buying the event. It sits in the middle of the instruction, after all. So i assumed you could buy as many Borrows as you wanted (getting +1 buy each time), just that you would get the +$1only once, regardless of your -1 card token. Obviously that's not the case, as the "Once per turn" covers not only the entire effect (including the +1 buy), but the whole act of buying the card. Not that it played any different.

Maybe this clears up what i was getting wrong.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 09, 2015, 10:51:20 pm
Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
Why? The if clause still prevents you from using it more than once that turn.

So what's the point of the "once per turn" clause here? Buying Borrow more than once per turn would make no sense anyway, since there's no Treasure cards that "draw" cards (and thus remove the -1 Card token) AFAICS. Is it just for clarity, or due to some unrevealed Adventures cards?

Without the "once per turn" clause the best strategy on a Borrow board would be for P1 to keep buying Borrow on T1 until his opponent either resigns or dies of despair.
That's more or less the reason. "Once per turn" was happening anyway (it's on Mission), and here was an Event that cost $0 and gave you your Buy back. LF complained that you could buy it repeatedly. So it says "once per turn." I did not realize that some people would read that as "every turn for the rest of the game."

Wait, so i don't get my buy back? But it says "once per turn" only after the +1 buy  :o

Not quite clear what you're asking, you get +1 buy when you buy it, so you get your buy back. But I also am curious why the "once per turn" is not before the +1 buy. I guess it's just astetics, but it is a bit confusing if "once per turn" means "you can only buy this event once per turn."

I figured that "Once per turn" was part of the effect you get on buying the event. It sits in the middle of the instruction, after all. So i assumed you could buy as many Borrows as you wanted (getting +1 buy each time), just that you would get the +$1only once, regardless of your -1 card token. Obviously that's not the case, as the "Once per turn" covers not only the entire effect (including the +1 buy), but the whole act of buying the card. Not that it played any different.

Maybe this clears up what i was getting wrong.

Yeah, it's not self-evident, but it's been discussed elsewhere in these previews. Luckily, there will be a rulebook and it will say stuff like this.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: enfynet on April 10, 2015, 12:13:25 am
The position of the "Once per turn" on the card makes it act much like a Reaction/Reveal card. You can physically Reveal Moat a thousand times to a single Attack, but only the first Reveal does anything. The same thing would happen with Borrow. You can Buy it repeatedly, but only the first Buy moves your -1 Card and gains you the $1.

[epiphany]

I just realized, as I was writing that, what Asper did with his Market Square/Borrow/Cultist/Watchtower... I wonder if all the Events will be a Once Per Turn type effect? Or can you double up on Expeditions to get +4 Cards your next turn?

I think I'm going to just order the box tonight. I'm ready.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Gherald on April 10, 2015, 12:54:24 am
If you had $6 and 2 Buys, you could go on two Expeditions, and have 4 extra cards in your next hand. Or buy a Silver and one Expedition. And so on. Expedition itself just sits on the table with the kingdom cards, reminding you that you can do this this game.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Kirian on April 10, 2015, 01:22:23 am
I don't recall if this has been asked, but can you use Inheritance on Peddler if two other actions are in play?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: jaketheyak on April 10, 2015, 01:30:21 am
I don't recall if this has been asked, but can you use Inheritance on Peddler if two other actions are in play?

You pay for Inheritance during your Buy phase, so I can't see why not.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 10, 2015, 04:32:58 am
The position of the "Once per turn" on the card makes it act much like a Reaction/Reveal card. You can physically Reveal Moat a thousand times to a single Attack, but only the first Reveal does anything. The same thing would happen with Borrow. You can Buy it repeatedly, but only the first Buy moves your -1 Card and gains you the $1.

I figured that's how it was, but it's not. You can't even try to buy Borrow more than once per turn. That absolutely doesn't matter though, as both readings behave identical (apart from giving a "better" stalling excuse). So i guess  i'm totally overacting on the whole thing in the first place.

Edit: Non-native english issues with funny made up words.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jeebus on April 10, 2015, 10:25:05 am
I figured that's how it was, but it's not. You can't even try to buy Borrow more than once per turn. That absolutely doesn't matter though, as both readings behave identical (apart from giving a "better" stalling excuse). So i guess  i'm totally overacting on the whole thing in the first place.

The only practical difference would be that you could buy Mission just to spend 4 coins. That doesn't matter for currently known cards or events. If there was a card or event like Storyteller that activated in the Buy phase, it could matter. There would have to be no cards costing less than $4 that you want, and you don't want to use this "Buy-Storyteller" to draw that many cards (or whatever the effect would be).
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 10, 2015, 01:04:34 pm
I figured that's how it was, but it's not. You can't even try to buy Borrow more than once per turn. That absolutely doesn't matter though, as both readings behave identical (apart from giving a "better" stalling excuse). So i guess  i'm totally overacting on the whole thing in the first place.

The only practical difference would be that you could buy Mission just to spend 4 coins. That doesn't matter for currently known cards or events. If there was a card or event like Storyteller that activated in the Buy phase, it could matter. There would have to be no cards costing less than $4 that you want, and you don't want to use this "Buy-Storyteller" to draw that many cards (or whatever the effect would be).

Also possible things that trigger when you buy an event. There could be an event that simply gives bonus to buying other events this turn.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 10, 2015, 01:24:18 pm
I figured that's how it was, but it's not. You can't even try to buy Borrow more than once per turn. That absolutely doesn't matter though, as both readings behave identical (apart from giving a "better" stalling excuse). So i guess  i'm totally overacting on the whole thing in the first place.

The only practical difference would be that you could buy Mission just to spend 4 coins. That doesn't matter for currently known cards or events. If there was a card or event like Storyteller that activated in the Buy phase, it could matter. There would have to be no cards costing less than $4 that you want, and you don't want to use this "Buy-Storyteller" to draw that many cards (or whatever the effect would be).

Also possible things that trigger when you buy an event. There could be an event that simply gives bonus to buying other events this turn.

Seems unlikely when the recommended maximum is 2 events.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: werothegreat on April 10, 2015, 01:54:43 pm
Given that Events have come so late in the game, I think it's unlikely we'll see cards specifically referencing them; they'd need to have some neutral wording, in the manner of Messenger, something like "All buys this turn cost $1 less" or something.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 10, 2015, 01:59:17 pm
I figured that's how it was, but it's not. You can't even try to buy Borrow more than once per turn. That absolutely doesn't matter though, as both readings behave identical (apart from giving a "better" stalling excuse). So i guess  i'm totally overacting on the whole thing in the first place.

The only practical difference would be that you could buy Mission just to spend 4 coins. That doesn't matter for currently known cards or events. If there was a card or event like Storyteller that activated in the Buy phase, it could matter. There would have to be no cards costing less than $4 that you want, and you don't want to use this "Buy-Storyteller" to draw that many cards (or whatever the effect would be).

Also possible things that trigger when you buy an event. There could be an event that simply gives bonus to buying other events this turn.

For some reason, I was thinking 3 events in a game when I said that. Though even then it would be very unlikely.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Beyond Awesome on April 11, 2015, 08:50:46 am
Given that Events have come so late in the game, I think it's unlikely we'll see cards specifically referencing them; they'd need to have some neutral wording, in the manner of Messenger, something like "All buys this turn cost $1 less" or something.

I really hope that if more expansions come out, that we get more in every one. Maybe 5 to 10. Now that they exist, they seem like an important part of Dominion, sort of like how Planeswalkers were introduced in Magic: The Gathering and now every expansion has at least one Planeswalker.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 11, 2015, 09:38:40 am
Given that Events have come so late in the game, I think it's unlikely we'll see cards specifically referencing them; they'd need to have some neutral wording, in the manner of Messenger, something like "All buys this turn cost $1 less" or something.

I really hope that if more expansions come out, that we get more in every one. Maybe 5 to 10. Now that they exist, they seem like an important part of Dominion, sort of like how Planeswalkers were introduced in Magic: The Gathering and now every expansion has at least one Planeswalker.

I also thought of the comparison between Events and Planeswalkers. While existing stuff related to buys specify buying a card; there could be new stuff that interacts with buying events, or buying in general. In the same way, stuff that existed before which mentioned "target creature" can't affect planeswalkers, but new cards can. However, it seems less likely with Dominion, because MTG is designed to be played using cards that you choose to play with; while Dominion is designed to be played using random cards from all existing cards. This means that any card that references events isn't a good idea, because it's very likely that such a card will be in play when no events are.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 11, 2015, 04:34:29 pm
Given that Events have come so late in the game, I think it's unlikely we'll see cards specifically referencing them; they'd need to have some neutral wording, in the manner of Messenger, something like "All buys this turn cost $1 less" or something.

I really hope that if more expansions come out, that we get more in every one. Maybe 5 to 10. Now that they exist, they seem like an important part of Dominion, sort of like how Planeswalkers were introduced in Magic: The Gathering and now every expansion has at least one Planeswalker.

Events have a lot going for them. They can make a kingdom feel different in ways not known before, and for minimum space, need no additional material so they can effortlessly appear in any expansion, don't need an on-play effect glued on them to be useable, and as you never gain them, they allow more flexibility without getting in "strictly better" territory. I can not imagine Donald letting this design space just go to waste after one game.

Honestly, i am amazed how much Adventures contains. A shame i'll have to wait until September... Ah well, September 13 is my birthday, so this year will be easy for my family ;-)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Mr.Oatmeal on April 12, 2015, 09:55:00 pm
I played a game the other day with inheritance and ironmonger, and I wanted to double check something. If I inherit Ironmonger, then one of my Ironmongers flips an Estate/monger, I get another action plus a card; The Estate/monger is now an action and victory card now, right?
If so, wow that's a fun interaction.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 12, 2015, 09:56:41 pm
I played a game the other day with inheritance and ironmonger, and I wanted to double check something. If I inherit Ironmonger, then one of my Ironmongers flips an Estate/monger, I get another action plus a card; The Estate/monger is now an action and victory card now, right?
If so, wow that's a fun interaction.
Yes, the Estate is also an Action and so you get both bonuses.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: chipperMDW on April 13, 2015, 11:20:28 pm
Band gives you benefits both from tokens on itself, and tokens on the card you play it as. You play Band as a specific card, which is from a specific pile.
This is kinda weird. It seems like BoM should not normally be looking at its own pile because you normally don't play BoM itself. Especially given that you've said things like this (hope I'm not taking it out of context):

I think the key difference is that to me, you cannot play a BoM (unless no cheaper cards are in the supply). When you (try to) play it is always something else that you played. You didn't play a BoM. Anything that cares about you playing a BoM does not see that you did; you played whatever you picked instead.

Or maybe the idea is just that the card you played is simultaneously "from" both the BoM pile and the pile of the card it's being played as? Like a multi-homed card?

At any rate, when you have your +1 Action token on the BoM pile and you use Throne Room to play a Band of Misfits as, say, Woodcutter, do you get +2 Actions (meaning the card was from the BoM pile both times it was played as Woodcutter) or just +1 Action (meaning it was from the BoM pile until it "became" Woodcutter, at which point it was no longer from the BoM pile)? Or something else?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Gherald on April 13, 2015, 11:37:46 pm
I think one good reasoning for BoM's interaction with both +1 Action tokens is as follows.

When you play BoM, first you check whether the BoM pile has a +1 Action token.  If it does, the BoM card essentially becomes a card that reads:

+1 Action
<Text of BoM card>.

So you get any +1 Action before you even begin to read what the BoM card's text says.

Then you read what BoM says, and it says to play it as if it were a certain card from the supply costing less than it.  Okay, you pick that card.  If that card happens to have the +1 Action token on it instead, then you would get the +1 Action before beginning to read the text on that card.

Therefore, BoM can give you the +1 Action from either pile.

--
With Throne Room, it may be that when the +1 Action token is on BoM you only get it for the first TR play, as once BoM becomes the second card ("Until it leaves play"), it can't get the +1 Action for the second play. That'll need a FAQ or ruling clarification.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Beyond Awesome on April 14, 2015, 12:08:10 am
BoM can be a confusing card. The +1 Action token thing makes perfect sense. I still don't agree with the whole Procession/BoM ruling, but hey, it's in the rule book so what can you do.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: chipperMDW on April 14, 2015, 12:30:47 am
When you play BoM, first you check whether the BoM pile has a +1 Action token.  If it does, the BoM card essentially becomes a card that reads:

+1 Action
<Text of BoM card>.

So you get any +1 Action before you even begin to read what the BoM card's text says.
Ah, but the text on BoM is completely unlike the text on any other card. It's not really an "on play" instruction; it happens before you would be following the card's "on play" instructions, if it had any. It's comparable to Trader happening before a gain; it's a "would play" effect:
Treating it like Trader, when you *would* play Band of Misfits, you *instead* play another card. That happens *before* playing the card.

I think that's moot, though, because the presence of the +1 Action token doesn't actually modify the text of the cards; it just gives you +1 Action when you play (but before you start carrying out instructions on) a card that meets its criterion. The thing that's weird is that the game can ever catch you "playing" a BoM in the first place.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 14, 2015, 06:01:26 am
When you play BoM, first you check whether the BoM pile has a +1 Action token.  If it does, the BoM card essentially becomes a card that reads:

+1 Action
<Text of BoM card>.

So you get any +1 Action before you even begin to read what the BoM card's text says.
Ah, but the text on BoM is completely unlike the text on any other card. It's not really an "on play" instruction; it happens before you would be following the card's "on play" instructions, if it had any. It's comparable to Trader happening before a gain; it's a "would play" effect:
Treating it like Trader, when you *would* play Band of Misfits, you *instead* play another card. That happens *before* playing the card.

I think that's moot, though, because the presence of the +1 Action token doesn't actually modify the text of the cards; it just gives you +1 Action when you play (but before you start carrying out instructions on) a card that meets its criterion. The thing that's weird is that the game can ever catch you "playing" a BoM in the first place.

Yes, i think that's where the confusion comes from. We are used to "when play" triggering before a card's actual effect happens (early examples: Reactions happening before an attack is resolved), and so it seems Lost Arts should happen first. Just that, as you said, Band of Misfits works completely different.

So i never play BoM, i play, let's say, Woodcutter. Now the question is: Is a BoM-Woodcutter from the Woodcutter pile? Not every real Woodcutter is. Some are from the Black Market deck. Or are Black Market Woodcutters from an absent Woodcutter pile? Maybe BoM Woodcutters are Woodcutters from the BoM pile? Whatever they are, they are cards, and they came from that pile, right? On the other hand, BoM "is that card", and that card is a specific Woodcutter. And where does that Woodcutter come from? The Woodcutter pile.

Let's assume Lost Arts and BoM apply both at the same time, on-play, before the card effect happens. Shouldn't you be able to decide what happens first, meaning that you can effectively have it either way (including the option to not get an action*)? Mysteries above mysteries...

*You don't want Diadem/Storyteller to trigger a shuffle, okay?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jeebus on April 14, 2015, 11:27:50 am
Let's assume Lost Arts and BoM apply both at the same time, on-play, before the card effect happens. Shouldn't you be able to decide what happens first, meaning that you can effectively have it either way (including the option to not get an action*)? Mysteries above mysteries...

To me the only way to interpret BoM is that the instructions happen before play. When-play instructions, like Moat reactions for instance, happen after the card has hit the table, and Lost Arts falls into this category: "When you play a card from that pile, you first get +1 Action."

So it seems that the card you play is actually the card you chose (and not "BoM"), when you resolve Lost Arts:

1) Choose to play BoM.
2) Resolve the before-play instructions: Choose Sea Hag, and set up the card to be Sea Hag from the point it's in play to it leaves play.
3) Play the card, turning it instantly into Sea Hag.
4) Resolve any when-play instructions:
- (4A) Lost Arts gives +1 Action if there is a token on the Sea Hag pile.
- (4B) Players can reveal Moats.
5) Resolve the card's instructions, which are Sea Hag's instructions.

The effects in step 4 are simultaneous, but we resolve the current player first, so +1 Action happens first.
Maybe we could consider "BoM turning into Sea Hag" as a when-play instruction instead, but that would mean that the BoM is first played as a BoM (step 3), and Donald's statement contradicts this. ("You cannot play a BoM.")

In order to also get the effects of a +1 Action on the BoM pile, (4A) needs to also check the BoM pile. That would mean that the card (even though it's not a BoM) is "from" the BoM pile while at the same time it's "from" the Sea Hag pile. It seems a little strange to me.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: markusin on April 14, 2015, 12:49:46 pm
Let's assume Lost Arts and BoM apply both at the same time, on-play, before the card effect happens. Shouldn't you be able to decide what happens first, meaning that you can effectively have it either way (including the option to not get an action*)? Mysteries above mysteries...

...

In order to also get the effects of a +1 Action on the BoM pile, (4A) needs to also check the BoM pile. That would mean that the card (even though it's not a BoM) is "from" the BoM pile while at the same time it's "from" the Sea Hag pile. It seems a little strange to me.
It's strange, but I think this interpretation is the only one that doesn't contradict any previous rulings.

Also, what is the final verdict of playing Throne Room on BoM when the +1 Action Token is on BoM. Do I get +2 Actions from the token effect? If so, then this also supports the interpretation that BoM is simultaneously from both the BoM pile and the pile of the card chosen to play it as.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: markusin on April 14, 2015, 01:13:09 pm
BoM can be a confusing card. The +1 Action token thing makes perfect sense. I still don't agree with the whole Procession/BoM ruling, but hey, it's in the rule book so what can you do.
Yeah, this is pretty much a "hard-coded" 2-card interaction, right? The worst is when you play BoM as Fortress with Procession. BoM goes back into your hand because it was a Fortress when you trashed the BoM, but you still get a $6 cost action card if possible (assuming no cost-reduction).
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jeebus on April 14, 2015, 01:49:07 pm
Also, what is the final verdict of playing Throne Room on BoM when the +1 Action Token is on BoM. Do I get +2 Actions from the token effect? If so, then this also supports the interpretation that BoM is simultaneously from both the BoM pile and the pile of the card chosen to play it as.

It would seem to be the only interpretation that makes sense. If the card, when it's played, is both from the BoM pile and the chosen card's pile, then with TR you get every token bonus from both piles twice.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: enfynet on April 14, 2015, 02:21:25 pm
If I'm reading this right, Inheritance and BoM both assume the abilities of another card, but not the name or cost?

Or does Band of Treasure Maps actually work?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: pacovf on April 14, 2015, 02:21:58 pm
+1 Action token: "when you play a card from this pile, you first get +1 action"
Band of Misfits: "Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play."

From the wording of both, there is no doubt that TR-BoM-as-smithy gets you +2 actions if the action token is on smithy, because you play BoM as, and it IS, a smithy from the smithy supply pile, at least until it leaves play.

I am not entirely sure what would happen if the +1 action token is on the BoM supply pile. It depends on what "play it twice" from throne room actually does. This is made more confusing by the hard-coded interaction between TR/Proc/KC and BoM as one-shot. If it didn't exist, I would rule that you only get the +1 action once, because by the time you play BoM as smithy the second time, the BoM is not a BoM anymore.

EDIT: BoM assumes the name and the cost too.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Gherald on April 14, 2015, 02:30:49 pm
EDIT: BoM assumes the name and the cost too.
Right.  So BoM-as-Treasure Map works, and does what you want when paired with a real Treasure Map in hand.

Inheritance Estate-Maps never do anything besides trash themselves, because they don't assume the name.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 14, 2015, 02:31:46 pm
+1 Action token: "when you play a card from this pile, you first get +1 action"
Band of Misfits: "Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play."

From the wording of both, there is no doubt that TR-BoM-as-smithy gets you +2 actions if the action token is on smithy, because you play BoM as, and it IS, a smithy from the smithy supply pile, at least until it leaves play.

I am not entirely sure what would happen if the +1 action token is on the BoM supply pile. It depends on what "play it twice" from throne room actually does. This is made more confusing by the hard-coded interaction between TR/Proc/KC and BoM as one-shot. If it didn't exist, I would rule that you only get the +1 action once, because by the time you play BoM as smithy the second time, the BoM is not a BoM anymore.

EDIT: BoM assumes the name and the cost too.
Suppose there was a card, Band of Little Misfits. It's Band of Misfits but only costs $4.

I play Band of Misfits as Band of Little Misfits as Woodcutter. There's a token on Band of Little Misfits. Do I get it? My feeling was that people in actual games would feel like they did.

I think the "Throne BoM, how many +Actions for a token on BoM" question comes down to this specific already-special-cased Throne / BoM interaction. You get at least +1 Action, since BoM itself gives you that. Then there's some "lock in" concept that makes Throne / BoM / Feast work as per expectations and the rulebook. The second time, it's already Feast. So I would guess you only get +1 Action. To really "know" I would have to study that ruling and the FAQs and well man the rulebook that won't answer this is out Saturday, surely I can put you guys off until then.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: scott_pilgrim on April 14, 2015, 03:37:41 pm
Does it work to interpret it as two simultaneous effects?  You play BoM, which tells you to play itself as another card.  So you have two effects happening simultaneously; you're playing BoM and you're playing Scout.  You choose the order to resolve them in, so if you're token is on BoM, you choose to play the BoM first, getting +1 Action, and if it's on Scout, you choose to play Scout first, getting +1 Action.  Nothing actually happens when you "play BoM", except that it (maybe) triggers the +1 Action.  Actually I guess it doesn't matter what order you resolve them in in either case, because you're getting +1 Action either way, unless there's some lose track magic happening there.  I'm not sure if that interpretation works with the Throne Room interaction though.

For me the source of the confusion is that two cards (or an event and a card) are telling me to do opposite things.  Band of Misfits is telling me "I'm not really a Band of Misfits!" while the action token is telling me "I only care what pile the card you're playing comes from", and I don't know who to listen to.  I could see a case that could be made for either one getting priority, but that you get to choose just seems weird to me.  But I could see it being comparable to getting to choose the order of simultaneous things.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jeebus on April 14, 2015, 05:15:59 pm
Suppose there was a card, Band of Little Misfits. It's Band of Misfits but only costs $4.

I play Band of Misfits as Band of Little Misfits as Woodcutter. There's a token on Band of Little Misfits. Do I get it? My feeling was that people in actual games would feel like they did.

I think the "Throne BoM, how many +Actions for a token on BoM" question comes down to this specific already-special-cased Throne / BoM interaction. You get at least +1 Action, since BoM itself gives you that. Then there's some "lock in" concept that makes Throne / BoM / Feast work as per expectations and the rulebook. The second time, it's already Feast. So I would guess you only get +1 Action. To really "know" I would have to study that ruling and the FAQs and well man the rulebook that won't answer this is out Saturday, surely I can put you guys off until then.

Yessir. But here's something to consider.

I don't think it matters whether TR "locked in" the card or not. If you get +1 Action from the BoM pile, you should get it twice with TR.

I assume that the token's effect happens on "when play" (because that's what Lost Arts says). As I showed a couple of posts ago (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12906.msg482494#msg482494) the token's effect happens after the BoM has already turned into e.g. Sea Hag. So if you still get +1 Action from the BoM pile when you play it as a Sea Hag the first time, nothing has changed the second time.

(But to me it would make more sense that you didn't get it from the BoM pile at all when you play it as another card, for the same reason I just stated.)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: werothegreat on April 14, 2015, 05:32:40 pm
But Band of Misfits *is* the card it's emulating until it leaves play. If you Throne Room a BoM that has been Lost Arts'd, you only get +1 Action. You played a BoM, but once it's in play, it's no longer a BoM. Similarly, I would assume that "Band of Misfits" can never contribute to Horn of Plenty's different names in play.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Awaclus on April 14, 2015, 05:40:55 pm
Similarly, I would assume that "Band of Misfits" can never contribute to Horn of Plenty's different names in play.

Except when there are no Action cards costing less than it in the Supply.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jeebus on April 14, 2015, 06:55:18 pm
But Band of Misfits *is* the card it's emulating until it leaves play. If you Throne Room a BoM that has been Lost Arts'd, you only get +1 Action. You played a BoM, but once it's in play, it's no longer a BoM. Similarly, I would assume that "Band of Misfits" can never contribute to Horn of Plenty's different names in play.

My point is that it isn't a BoM the first time either. See my previous post.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: enfynet on April 14, 2015, 11:47:12 pm
So, what happens when Inheritance is played on BoM? (Obviously cost reduction)

Do Estates no longer become Estate-ChosenAction?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: AJD on April 14, 2015, 11:57:01 pm
So, what happens when Inheritance is played on BoM? (Obviously cost reduction)

Do Estates no longer become Estate-ChosenAction?

They're Action–Victory while in your hand or deck, but in play they become a copy of whatever you're having them imitate, same as regular Band of Misfits.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 15, 2015, 12:17:46 am
So, what happens when Inheritance is played on BoM? (Obviously cost reduction)

Do Estates no longer become Estate-ChosenAction?

They're Action–Victory while in your hand or deck, but in play they become a copy of whatever you're having them imitate, same as regular Band of Misfits.

And when you Procession them you get a $3 card, I suppose...
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Squidd on April 15, 2015, 06:46:35 am
And they would only be able to imitate Poor House or Ruins.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: chipperMDW on April 15, 2015, 09:16:40 am
I think the "Throne BoM, how many +Actions for a token on BoM" question comes down to this specific already-special-cased Throne / BoM interaction. You get at least +1 Action, since BoM itself gives you that.
Ok, so, you're saying that, in some sense, you do play BoM when you play it as something else. Just a little bit. Not enough for Conspirator to notice that you played two actions, but enough for the +1 Action token to notice playing two different things.

That's the confusion: different things both say they're looking for something being "played," but they now have different interpretations of what "play" means. Or some are more observant than others.

So... can all "when you play" effects see you sorta-playing BoM? Like, if you had in play a card that read "While this is in play, when you play an Action card, gain a Silver," and you played BoM-as-Woodcutter, would you gain two Slivers? (If Conspirator were watching, wouldn't it think that was a magic trick?)

Or is this just another special-case ruling for BoM with the "when you play" on the +1 Action token (and its friends, presumably)?

Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: pacovf on April 15, 2015, 09:51:00 am
You are playing BoM as another card, which is different from BoM instructing you to play another card, and is also different from BoM saying "when you would play BoM, play it as another card instead". So conspirator doesn't activate after one BoM. Neither does your hypothetical card gain two silvers. But Lost Arts give you +1 action.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: enfynet on April 15, 2015, 11:00:35 am
You are playing BoM as another card, which is different from BoM saying "when you would play BoM, play it as another card instead".
Okay, now you lost me. These seem identical.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: chipperMDW on April 15, 2015, 11:02:15 am
Neither does your hypothetical card gain two silvers. But Lost Arts give you +1 action.
The ruling says you'd get the +1 Action if you played BoM-as-Woodcutter while the +1 Action token is on the Woodcutter pile.  The ruling also says you'd somehow get the +1 Action if you played BoM-as-Woodcutter while the token is on the BoM pile.

Now, say you're using two different +1 Bonus tokens; one's on the BoM pile and the other's on the Woodcutter pile. If you play BoM-as-Woodcutter, the ruling implies you get both bonuses. Apparently, playing BoM-as-Woodcutter triggers "when you play" effects on two separate occasions: once when it's from the BoM pile, and once when it's from the Woodcutter pile.

But, with hypothetical Silver-gaining card, you say you play BoM-as-Woodcutter and it only triggers "when you play" effects once.

Where are you saying the difference is?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: iguanaiguana on April 15, 2015, 11:14:26 am
You need to read the cards from the top down and resolve in order. Placing the  action token on the card should add the plus action to the top of BoM. Then BoM tells you to choose another card for it to become but you already have the action. So if woodcutter has a plus card bonus on it, you should read it from the top down once BoM becomes woodcutter and you will get the card bonus at that time. All the same, you only played one action: a single band of misfits, which gave you an action, then became a woodcutter, which gave you an additional card. If you then throne room BoM, you would get one action, then band of misfits becomes woodcutter, so you get 1 card (from your plus card token) 2 coins, 1 buy. Then throne room will play the woodcutter again, so you will get another card, two coins, and a buy. End result: one action, two cards, four coins, two buys.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 15, 2015, 11:51:44 am
You need to read the cards from the top down and resolve in order. Placing the  action token on the card should add the plus action to the top of BoM. Then BoM tells you to choose another card for it to become but you already have the action. So if woodcutter has a plus card bonus on it, you should read it from the top down once BoM becomes woodcutter and you will get the card bonus at that time. All the same, you only played one action: a single band of misfits, which gave you an action, then became a woodcutter, which gave you an additional card. If you then throne room BoM, you would get one action, then band of misfits becomes woodcutter, so you get 1 card (from your plus card token) 2 coins, 1 buy. Then throne room will play the woodcutter again, so you will get another card, two coins, and a buy. End result: one action, two cards, four coins, two buys.

Except based on previous BoM rulings, you can't actually play BoM because it essentially transforms on the way (unless there are no valid targets). 

I think the most sensible ruling would be to ignore tokens on the BoM pile.  The card is actually from that pile, sure, but you play it as if it were a different card in the supply, and thus also as if it were from that other pile.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: pacovf on April 15, 2015, 11:57:59 am
You are playing BoM as another card, which is different from BoM saying "when you would play BoM, play it as another card instead".
Okay, now you lost me. These seem identical.

This is all speculation on my part. But in the latter case, BoM negates itself, instead of just changing what it is, so you would never benefit from the +1 action token. Kinda like what Trader does with gains, where you never gain the card in the first place.

Neither does your hypothetical card gain two silvers. But Lost Arts give you +1 action.
The ruling says you'd get the +1 Action if you played BoM-as-Woodcutter while the +1 Action token is on the Woodcutter pile.  The ruling also says you'd somehow get the +1 Action if you played BoM-as-Woodcutter while the token is on the BoM pile.

Now, say you're using two different +1 Bonus tokens; one's on the BoM pile and the other's on the Woodcutter pile. If you play BoM-as-Woodcutter, the ruling implies you get both bonuses. Apparently, playing BoM-as-Woodcutter triggers "when you play" effects on two separate occasions: once when it's from the BoM pile, and once when it's from the Woodcutter pile.

But, with hypothetical Silver-gaining card, you say you play BoM-as-Woodcutter and it only triggers "when you play" effects once.

Where are you saying the difference is?

You are only playing one card.

Except based on previous BoM rulings, you can't actually play BoM because it essentially transforms on the way (unless there are no valid targets).

Was there a case before where whether we actually played BoM mattered?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: chipperMDW on April 15, 2015, 12:08:00 pm
I think the most sensible ruling would be to ignore tokens on the BoM pile.  The card is actually from that pile, sure, but you play it as if it were a different card in the supply, and thus also as if it were from that other pile.
Agreed.

You are only playing one card.
Exactly. So why would BoM-Woodcutter be checking for tokens twice, which it would need to do to get bonuses from both piles? (Unless it were simultaneously from both piles; but Donald's last post kinda rules that out.)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 15, 2015, 12:10:41 pm
When an opponent's Knight trashes my Sir D'Estatery, does he have to trash his Knight? I would argue that "When a Knight is trashed by this" sounds a lot more like a reference to the act of trashing than "the trashed card", and so looking at what IS trashed instead of at what WAS trashed seems more natural (to me at least). Obviously, if you execute these instructions sequentially without the assumption of memory, this can't work.*

*But we have memory, don't we? At least revealing Moat to Swamp Hag would be a pain without it.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on April 15, 2015, 12:15:44 pm
When an opponent's Knight trashes my Sir D'Estatery, does he have to trash his Knight? I would argue that "When a Knight is trashed by this" sounds a lot more like a reference to the act of trashing than "the trashed card", and so looking at what IS trashed instead of at what WAS trashed seems more natural (to me at least). Obviously, if you execute these instructions sequentially without the assumption of memory, this can't work.*

*But we have memory, don't we? At least revealing Moat to Swamp Hag would be a pain without it.

The Estate is is a Knight, you have to trash the played Knight.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: pacovf on April 15, 2015, 12:22:04 pm
You are only playing one card.
Exactly. So why would BoM-Woodcutter be checking for tokens twice, which it would need to do to get bonuses from both piles? (Unless it were simultaneously from both piles; but Donald's last post kinda rules that out.)

My understanding is that in the brief moment between you choosing to play BoM and BoM actually being in play, BoM is both itself and the card from the supply you chose. Bom says "Play this [...]", so you are playing BoM, there is no "would" wording involved. Then once it's on your play area, it's only the card you chose, until it leaves your play area.

Donald is known to rule BoM in ways that make intuitive sense if strict rules adherence would just confuse the hell out of everyone, so we'll need to wait for the rulebook to clear this one out. I've heard it's going to come out soon?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Witherweaver on April 15, 2015, 12:24:23 pm
Band of Schrodinger's Cats
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: AJD on April 15, 2015, 12:25:10 pm
When an opponent's Knight trashes my Sir D'Estatery, does he have to trash his Knight?

Can't happen; a Knight can't trash a card costing $2.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: LastFootnote on April 15, 2015, 12:31:40 pm
I think the most sensible ruling would be to ignore tokens on the BoM pile.  The card is actually from that pile, sure, but you play it as if it were a different card in the supply, and thus also as if it were from that other pile.

I agree. Donald made his ruling because he thought it was how most players would think it worked. But it does seem to fly in the face of what we know of Band of Misfits.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jeebus on April 15, 2015, 01:00:28 pm
Was there a case before where whether we actually played BoM mattered?

Yes, with Conspirator, as has been mentioned before.

My understanding is that in the brief moment between you choosing to play BoM and BoM actually being in play, BoM is both itself and the card from the supply you chose. Bom says "Play this [...]", so you are playing BoM, there is no "would" wording involved. Then once it's on your play area, it's only the card you chose, until it leaves your play area.

BoM's instructions are not like any other Action card's instructions. All other cards' instructions are triggered when the card hits the table and is in play, after any when-play effects from other cards (like Moat's reaction or a previously played Urchin). So it's always like this:

1) Choose to play an Action card.
2) Put it in play.
3) Resolve when-play effects from other cards.
4) Resolve the card's instructions.

(There is an exception if the card can't be put into play, because it's in the Trash for example. Then step 2 fails, but we still do the other steps.)

If BoM worked like this (which it doesn't), it would be like this:

1) Choose to play BoM.
2) Put it in play as BoM.
3) Resolve when-play effects from other cards.
4) Resolve the card's instructions:
4A) Choose a card from Supply costing less: Choose Sea Hag.
4B) Put BoM-as-Sea Hag in play. (This fails since the card is already in play.)
4C) Resolve when-play effects from other cards.
4D) Resolve BoM-as-Sea Hag's instructions.

We know it doesn't work like this. It would mean two cards are played, BoM-as-BoM and BoM-as-Sea Hag. Conspirator would see two played cards. The only way BoM can work is if it's a before-play (or a when-would-play) ability, just like Trader is a when-would-gain ability.

1) Choose to play BoM.
2) The when-would-play triggers: Choose a card from Supply costing less: Choose Sea Hag.
3) Put BoM-as-Sea Hag in play.
4) Resolve when-play effects from other cards.
5) Resolve Sea Hag's instructions.

So a BoM is never played. It's in step 4 that we check for tokens on piles.

Again, see here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12906.msg482494#msg482494
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: scott_pilgrim on April 15, 2015, 04:09:31 pm
Yeah, Conspirator means my previous interpretation doesn't work.  Here's why I'm having trouble with this.  It seems to me like there are only two reasonable ways to interpret the situation:

1. I "play Band of Misfits as if it were a Woodcutter", and the way I would play Woodcutter is I would get +1 action, +1 buy, +$2 (assuming my action token is there).  If my token is on BoM instead, it doesn't matter, because I'm playing BoM the way I would play Woodcutter.

OR

2. The action token tells me "when I play a card from this pile, +1 action".  If my token is on BoM, then I'm playing a card from that pile, so I get +1 action.  If my token is on Woodcutter, then I'm not playing a card from that pile, so I don't get +1 action.

So either way you interpret it, you only get the +1 action from one of the piles, and not the other.  And it doesn't work to interpret it as playing both BoM and Woodcutter, because that would mean you're playing two actions every time you play BoM, which is not consistent with Conspirator, as everyone else keeps saying.  So I've convinced myself my confusion is justified.

Maybe it's more like, you get to choose which of those rulings it is?  Maybe there's a case for that.  So then the question is, is it possible (because of some convoluted edge case involving Diadem and Storyteller) to not get the +1 Action, if the token is on Woodcutter or Band of Misfits?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 15, 2015, 05:21:39 pm
When an opponent's Knight trashes my Sir D'Estatery, does he have to trash his Knight?

Can't happen; a Knight can't trash a card costing $2.

Oops... That's a good point. For now, at least.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 15, 2015, 05:43:10 pm
When an opponent's Knight trashes my Sir D'Estatery, does he have to trash his Knight?

Can't happen; a Knight can't trash a card costing $2.

Oops... That's a good point. For now, at least.

If it could, I'd say yes - the Estate has the Knight type.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jeebus on April 15, 2015, 06:14:57 pm
2. The action token tells me "when I play a card from this pile, +1 action".  If my token is on BoM, then I'm playing a card from that pile, so I get +1 action.  If my token is on Woodcutter, then I'm not playing a card from that pile, so I don't get +1 action.

As I've showed, you're not playing a BoM. (The exception being when no action cards costing less exist in Supply.)

So the only way a token on the BoM pile could kick in, is if we interpret the BoM-as-Sea Hag as being "from" the BoM pile, even though we're not playing a BoM. We would have to focus on were the card physically is from. In that case it sounds reasonable to say that the card is not "from" the Sea Hag pile. But the previous ruling says that it's "from" both...
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: shmeur on April 15, 2015, 06:23:54 pm
When an opponent's Knight trashes my Sir D'Estatery, does he have to trash his Knight?

Can't happen; a Knight can't trash a card costing $2.
It's quite possible that there might be a card/token that gives piles +1 cost.  Then it'd be $3 in such a scenario.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: AJD on April 15, 2015, 08:02:27 pm
When an opponent's Knight trashes my Sir D'Estatery, does he have to trash his Knight?

Can't happen; a Knight can't trash a card costing $2.
It's quite possible that there might be a card/token that gives piles +1 cost.  Then it'd be $3 in such a scenario.

Honestly I feel like cost increasers are unlikely because of the confusion of how they interact with cost reducers? Because cost reducers all have this "but not less than $0" stipulation on them. So like, if you play Princess, and activate a cost increaser, how much does Poor House cost? $0, because +$1 for the cost increaser and then –$2 for the Princess? Or $1, because $0 from the Princess and then +$1 for the cost increaser? Would it matter in what order you played the two effects? Would it matter whether the effect is while-in-play (like Princess) or when-you-play (like Bridge)?

I mean, certainly Donald could just write a rule to clarify this, but it seems thorny enough that I'm not expecting it.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Gherald on April 15, 2015, 08:21:22 pm
Highwayman - (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/14px-Coin5.png) Action-Attack-Duration

After your turn, and until your next turn, all cards cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/14px-Coin1.png) more.

At the start of your next turn: +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/14px-Coin3.png)

--
Interaction with cost reducers and the 0 threshhold shouldn't be an issue, it should seem natural that the cost increase duration attack happens before any of those enter play, and the FAQ would just be explicit on this.

Of course this basically copies Swamp Hag so any real card would be more interesting, but there you see some viability.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jack Rudd on April 15, 2015, 08:57:59 pm
When an opponent's Knight trashes my Sir D'Estatery, does he have to trash his Knight?

Can't happen; a Knight can't trash a card costing $2.
It's quite possible that there might be a card/token that gives piles +1 cost.  Then it'd be $3 in such a scenario.

Honestly I feel like cost increasers are unlikely because of the confusion of how they interact with cost reducers? Because cost reducers all have this "but not less than $0" stipulation on them. So like, if you play Princess, and activate a cost increaser, how much does Poor House cost? $0, because +$1 for the cost increaser and then –$2 for the Princess? Or $1, because $0 from the Princess and then +$1 for the cost increaser? Would it matter in what order you played the two effects? Would it matter whether the effect is while-in-play (like Princess) or when-you-play (like Bridge)?

I mean, certainly Donald could just write a rule to clarify this, but it seems thorny enough that I'm not expecting it.
The other game I'm familiar with with this sort of interaction is Twilight Struggle, and there the interaction of Ops increasers with Ops reducers is clear enough: you combine all the Ops-modifying effects first, and then the boundary effects come into play.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: jaketheyak on April 15, 2015, 09:26:11 pm
Highwayman - (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/14px-Coin5.png) Action-Attack-Duration

After your turn, and until your next turn, all cards cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/14px-Coin1.png) more.

At the start of your next turn: +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/14px-Coin3.png)

This seems like a plausible concept for a Duration-Attack and I agree that the interaction with cost reducers is not confusing.
However, because it doesn't specify the buy phase, it is an attack that potentially helps your opponents (e.g. Apprentice).

That said, Haunted Woods is a Duration-Attack that potentially helps your opponent, so maybe that's part of the charm.

EDIT: My original example of it benefiting your opponent was Remodel but, well, that doesn't actually work, does it?
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 15, 2015, 09:38:40 pm
Highwayman - (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/14px-Coin5.png) Action-Attack-Duration

After your turn, and until your next turn, all cards cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/14px-Coin1.png) more.

At the start of your next turn: +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/14px-Coin3.png)

This seems like a plausible concept for a Duration-Attack and I agree that the interaction with cost reducers is not confusing.
However, because it doesn't specify the buy phase, it is an attack that potentially helps your opponents (e.g. Apprentice).

That said, Haunted Woods is a Duration-Attack that potentially helps your opponent, so maybe that's part of the charm.

All* Attack cards have the potential to help your opponent, many of them in more situations than cost-increasing.

*With the possible exception of Pillage - there's an edge-case challenge, a 5+ card hand such that discarding any single card is beneficial. 5 Tunnels I suppose.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: jaketheyak on April 15, 2015, 09:47:34 pm
All* Attack cards have the potential to help your opponent, many of them in more situations than cost-increasing.

Yeah, I suppose that's true.
I guess I originally thought it might be helpful a bit too often because of my brain misfire over Remodel-variants.

Quote
*With the possible exception of Pillage - there's an edge-case challenge, a 5+ card hand such that discarding any single card is beneficial. 5 Tunnels I suppose.

5 Libraries, too.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 15, 2015, 10:00:48 pm
Quote
*With the possible exception of Pillage - there's an edge-case challenge, a 5+ card hand such that discarding any single card is beneficial. 5 Tunnels I suppose.

5 Libraries, too.

Yeah. I wonder if there are any that a decent deck is likely to produce.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: AJD on April 15, 2015, 10:03:22 pm
Highwayman - (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/14px-Coin5.png) Action-Attack-Duration

After your turn, and until your next turn, all cards cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/14px-Coin1.png) more.

At the start of your next turn: +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/14px-Coin3.png)

This seems like a plausible concept for a Duration-Attack

(Donald thought so too; it turned into Cutpurse.)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: eHalcyon on April 15, 2015, 10:06:48 pm
Quote
*With the possible exception of Pillage - there's an edge-case challenge, a 5+ card hand such that discarding any single card is beneficial. 5 Tunnels I suppose.

5 Libraries, too.

Yeah. I wonder if there are any that a decent deck is likely to produce.

It could also just be 2 Libraries (or other draw-to-X) and 3 junk cards.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 15, 2015, 10:09:50 pm
Quote
*With the possible exception of Pillage - there's an edge-case challenge, a 5+ card hand such that discarding any single card is beneficial. 5 Tunnels I suppose.

5 Libraries, too.

Yeah. I wonder if there are any that a decent deck is likely to produce.

It could also just be 2 Libraries (or other draw-to-X) and 3 junk cards.

Yeah okay. So even Pillage can help.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: iguanaiguana on April 16, 2015, 09:04:41 am
The lesson here is not to buy pillage to attack your opponent's junked up library engine. You learn something new every day.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on April 16, 2015, 02:39:58 pm
Highwayman - (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/14px-Coin5.png) Action-Attack-Duration

After your turn, and until your next turn, all cards cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/14px-Coin1.png) more.

At the start of your next turn: +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/14px-Coin3.png)

This seems like a plausible concept for a Duration-Attack

(Donald thought so too; it turned into Cutpurse.)

But he also mentioned that when he made Seaside, there was pressure to keep Durations to a minimum. That pressure has gone, so he may think it over. I admit that since Seaside a new concern against cost increasers has raised its head, though, and that concern is the similarity of such a card to Cutpurse.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: dondon151 on April 16, 2015, 03:25:44 pm
I think in the grand scheme of Dominion, a duration attack that increases costs isn't similar at all to Cutpurse. It wouldn't reduce handsize (which could be bad or good), it would work more often, and it would reduce the value of +buy. I would say that in the majority of kingdoms, a cost increasing attack would not play at all like Cutpurse.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on April 16, 2015, 03:26:15 pm
Highwayman - (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/14px-Coin5.png) Action-Attack-Duration

After your turn, and until your next turn, all cards cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/14px-Coin1.png) more.

At the start of your next turn: +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/14px-Coin3.png)

This seems like a plausible concept for a Duration-Attack

(Donald thought so too; it turned into Cutpurse.)

But he also mentioned that when he made Seaside, there was pressure to keep Durations to a minimum. That pressure has gone, so he may think it over. I admit that since Seaside a new concern against cost increasers has raised its head, though, and that concern is the similarity of such a card to Cutpurse.

Donald has already said that there is a -$1 token. Giving a player one of these would do the same thing as increasing the cost of cards for them, except it wouldn't punish multiple buys more, and wouldn't interact with TFB.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: pacovf on April 16, 2015, 05:21:32 pm
Donald has already said that there is a -$1 token. Giving a player one of these would do the same thing as increasing the cost of cards for them, except it wouldn't punish multiple buys more, and wouldn't interact with TFB, nor with fixed cost gainers, nor trashing attacks, nor Prince, Storyteller, Sage...

In short, it would do the same thing. :P
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: jaketheyak on April 16, 2015, 07:54:34 pm
Donald has already said that there is a -$1 token. Giving a player one of these would do the same thing as increasing the cost of cards for them, except it wouldn't punish multiple buys more, and wouldn't interact with TFB.

Isn't that just a more reliable version of Cutpurse?

I suppose it depends on what else it does.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Jeebus on April 27, 2015, 12:23:22 pm
So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
If you Inheritance Scouts and then Transmute an Estate, it was an Action-Victory card, so you gain a Duchy and a Gold.
The rules for Band of Misfits say when you use Procession on it and play it as, e.g., Fortress, you "gain an Action card costing exactly $6 ($1 more than Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying Fortress)." So there, you don't care about what a thing was at the time it was trashed, but what it is at the time you're evaluating the instruction.

But here, you say you do care about what a thing was when it was trashed.

What's the difference? Do you check costs at the time of evaluation, but types at the time of trashing?
The key difference is how much time I have spent on these questions and what materials I had access to at the time.

I don't see a conversation with Doug about it, so possibly it just randomly ended up that way on isotropic.

Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.

When-trashed things however trigger when trashed and so will happen even if the card loses that ability then.

What about if you Inheritance Urchin? "When you play another Attack card with this in play, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile."
You did trash it, so I suppose you gain a Mercenary? (It seems like BoM-as-Feast: Even though the gain instruction comes after the card is no longer Feast, it works.)
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 27, 2015, 01:13:13 pm
What about if you Inheritance Urchin? "When you play another Attack card with this in play, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile."
You did trash it, so I suppose you gain a Mercenary? (It seems like BoM-as-Feast: Even though the gain instruction comes after the card is no longer Feast, it works.)
If you Inheritance Urchin and trash one, you get a Mercenary.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: werothegreat on April 27, 2015, 01:21:52 pm
Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.

When-trashed things however trigger when trashed and so will happen even if the card loses that ability then.

Just want to check and make sure this is your final ruling - Transmute and Procession check the type/cost of a card after it has been trashed?

EDIT: This also fits with Ironworks, which is worded exactly as Transmute is.  If you didn't gain anything, you don't get any bonus.  I'm assuming if you Ironworks an Estate that has Inherited Scout, you get +1 Card/+1 Action?

EDIT2: Also, Disciple on an Inherited Estate gains you an Estate, right? 
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Donald X. on April 27, 2015, 01:50:33 pm
Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.

When-trashed things however trigger when trashed and so will happen even if the card loses that ability then.

Just want to check and make sure this is your final ruling - Transmute and Procession check the type/cost of a card after it has been trashed?

EDIT: This also fits with Ironworks, which is worded exactly as Transmute is.  If you didn't gain anything, you don't get any bonus.  I'm assuming if you Ironworks an Estate that has Inherited Scout, you get +1 Card/+1 Action?

EDIT2: Also, Disciple on an Inherited Estate gains you an Estate, right?
Man I hope I get to make more rulings after this one.

Transmute and Procession check the type/cost of the card after it has been trashed.

If you Ironworks an action-Estate you get +1 Card +1 Action.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: TheEmerged on May 20, 2015, 03:28:23 pm
And you could use the +Buy to buy more Estates!  Estate rushes might be a thing now actually.

I have actually seen this with Inheritance assigned to Market (thanks to Ferry).  One player bought up half the remaining Estates on a single turn.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on May 12, 2016, 12:00:07 pm
Does sound pretty gruesome. Of course, we don't know yet for sure the rules about how Events/Tokens interact with Possession. Maybe Events purchased accrue to the possessor, like Cards? Maybe the possessor can move his own tokens but not the possessed's, or vice versa, or both...?
Those things don't sound likely because they would pretty much have to be errata on Possession, which is something Donald doesn't really do.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: spiralstaircase on May 12, 2016, 05:21:12 pm
And you could use the +Buy to buy more Estates!  Estate rushes might be a thing now actually.

I have actually seen this with Inheritance assigned to Market (thanks to Ferry).  One player bought up half the remaining Estates on a single turn.

As I think I mentioned once before, Inheritance + Ferry + Grand Market.  Good. Times.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Davio on May 13, 2016, 05:28:48 am
Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.

When-trashed things however trigger when trashed and so will happen even if the card loses that ability then.

Just want to check and make sure this is your final ruling - Transmute and Procession check the type/cost of a card after it has been trashed?

EDIT: This also fits with Ironworks, which is worded exactly as Transmute is.  If you didn't gain anything, you don't get any bonus.  I'm assuming if you Ironworks an Estate that has Inherited Scout, you get +1 Card/+1 Action?

EDIT2: Also, Disciple on an Inherited Estate gains you an Estate, right?
Man I hope I get to make more rulings after this one.

Transmute and Procession check the type/cost of the card after it has been trashed.

If you Ironworks an action-Estate you get +1 Card +1 Action.
We need more colored dogs, blue isn't enough anymore.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Minotaur on May 13, 2016, 05:23:30 pm
Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.

When-trashed things however trigger when trashed and so will happen even if the card loses that ability then.

Just want to check and make sure this is your final ruling - Transmute and Procession check the type/cost of a card after it has been trashed?

EDIT: This also fits with Ironworks, which is worded exactly as Transmute is.  If you didn't gain anything, you don't get any bonus.  I'm assuming if you Ironworks an Estate that has Inherited Scout, you get +1 Card/+1 Action?

EDIT2: Also, Disciple on an Inherited Estate gains you an Estate, right?
Man I hope I get to make more rulings after this one.

Transmute and Procession check the type/cost of the card after it has been trashed.

If you Ironworks an action-Estate you get +1 Card +1 Action.
We need more colored dogs, blue isn't enough anymore.

The last time I tried to talk about blue dogs in a thread, people got up in arms over religion, sex, politics.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Witherweaver on May 13, 2016, 05:34:32 pm
Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.

When-trashed things however trigger when trashed and so will happen even if the card loses that ability then.

Just want to check and make sure this is your final ruling - Transmute and Procession check the type/cost of a card after it has been trashed?

EDIT: This also fits with Ironworks, which is worded exactly as Transmute is.  If you didn't gain anything, you don't get any bonus.  I'm assuming if you Ironworks an Estate that has Inherited Scout, you get +1 Card/+1 Action?

EDIT2: Also, Disciple on an Inherited Estate gains you an Estate, right?
Man I hope I get to make more rulings after this one.

Transmute and Procession check the type/cost of the card after it has been trashed.

If you Ironworks an action-Estate you get +1 Card +1 Action.
We need more colored dogs, blue isn't enough anymore.

The last time I tried to talk about blue dogs in a thread, people got up in arms over religion, sex, politics.

For the last time, you can't marry a dog, blue or not.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: GendoIkari on March 23, 2018, 02:03:25 pm
It just occurred to me that with events like these on the board, Possession really lets you mess with your left opponent in ways that are even meaner than using up their coin tokens.

For example you could move their Lost Arts action token from Smithy to Chancellor (after having just brazenly taken advantage of all those supercharged smithies yourself)

If you possess them super early, you could cause their Estates to inherit Ruined Village-ness and well that's not nice.

Of course you always want to do a Borrow on your last Possession and make their next turn as if you just minioned them after the Possession

Additionally, you will have called in any Reserve cards they were waiting to play...

Possession already isn't exactly a favored card of many people, and man I can just see that dislike growing with this expansion in play.

Something to be aware of.  I guess going forward, when Possession shows up in the kingdom along with Adventuresy-stuff... take a deep breath folks. You know it's probably going to be one of those games, so be a sport and ehm try to give as good as you get.

Does sound pretty gruesome. Of course, we don't know yet for sure the rules about how Events/Tokens interact with Possession. Maybe Events purchased accrue to the possessor, like Cards? Maybe the possessor can move his own tokens but not the possessed's, or vice versa, or both...?

No. Gained cards only go the the possessor because possession says so on the card. It wouldn't make any sense at all for a rule to be introduced into the rule book of Adventures that changes the wording of another card. Possession would have to be reprinted with new wording which won't happen.

Oh.
Title: Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
Post by: Asper on March 24, 2018, 03:50:51 pm
Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.

When-trashed things however trigger when trashed and so will happen even if the card loses that ability then.

Just want to check and make sure this is your final ruling - Transmute and Procession check the type/cost of a card after it has been trashed?

EDIT: This also fits with Ironworks, which is worded exactly as Transmute is.  If you didn't gain anything, you don't get any bonus.  I'm assuming if you Ironworks an Estate that has Inherited Scout, you get +1 Card/+1 Action?

EDIT2: Also, Disciple on an Inherited Estate gains you an Estate, right?
Man I hope I get to make more rulings after this one.

Transmute and Procession check the type/cost of the card after it has been trashed.

If you Ironworks an action-Estate you get +1 Card +1 Action.
We need more colored dogs, blue isn't enough anymore.

The last time I tried to talk about blue dogs in a thread, people got up in arms over religion, sex, politics.

For the last time, you can't marry a dog, blue or not.

"...yet.", the congressman said.