Dominion Strategy Forum

Archive => Archive => Dominion: Adventures Previews => Topic started by: Donald X. on April 01, 2015, 09:46:28 am

Title: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Donald X. on April 01, 2015, 09:46:28 am
Those of you who have been wanting more Duration cards, here they are at last. There was lots left to do with them, and I could get in some nice simple cards this way, and well people wanted them. If you aren't familiar with them, they are simply cards that do something on future turns. They stay in play until they are done doing everything they have to do; that's the only tricky part.

(https://dominionstrategy.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/adventurespreview3.png?w=640&h=326)

Amulet is a basic Duration card. It gives you a choice on both turns, that's its special thing. Amulet is super-flexible; it gets rid of garbage, provides money for the same turn, and gets Silvers for later.

Swamp Hag showcases a type of Attack made possible by Duration cards. It makes the other players have worse turns. In this case, anything they buy will be cursed. Two Swamp Hags? Two Curses. It can be grim in multiplayer. They can just choose not to buy anything in order to dodge the Curses and well you will be happy with that too. Try to avoid playing Swamp Hag and Outpost in the same turn; that Swamp Hag doesn't end up Cursing anyone.

Hireling is a Duration card that lasts forever. You put it out, and then that's that, you have an extra card on every turn for the rest of the game. That seems good. They're cumulative of course; with three of them out, you'll get three extra cards each turn. You get the card at the start of your turn, rather than when drawing your hand, which means it doesn't suck vs. Militias. $6 may seem cheap for this ability and well there's playtesting, you know, the costs aren't just random.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: GendoIkari on April 01, 2015, 09:51:33 am
While I can't remember fully the rest of the cards, I'm pretty sure that Hireling was in my top 3 favorite cards, along with Storyteller and Transmogrify. It just seems so crazy. I was probably over-valuing it, but I never wanted to buy a Gold until I had a couple of these first. Once I had 3 of them in play. It's just great.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Heisenberg on April 01, 2015, 09:52:33 am
pictures not loading
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Donald X. on April 01, 2015, 09:53:16 am
pictures not loading
That will happen tomorrow and the next day too.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Watno on April 01, 2015, 09:56:05 am
Amulet seems pretty weak to me compared to JoaT.

Swamp Hag seems pretty cool.

Not sure what to think about Hireling, since I haven't really played with Prince yet. It looks kinda slow though.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Watno on April 01, 2015, 09:56:51 am
Just check the pictures at BGG: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1346994/previews-3-amulet-swamp-hag-hireling
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Watno on April 01, 2015, 10:00:52 am
Procession(-King's Court-)Hireling will lead to interesting tracking issues.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: AJD on April 01, 2015, 10:01:49 am
I can't figure out whether Throne Room / Swamp Hag works or doesn't work.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on April 01, 2015, 10:03:39 am
I can't figure out whether Throne Room / Swamp Hag works or doesn't work.

It works
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: drsteelhammer on April 01, 2015, 10:05:18 am
If two hags work, then throne room should work aswell. Atleast it works that way with other duration cards aswell.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Sidsel on April 01, 2015, 10:06:36 am
I think I want Ironworks or Workshop in Swamp Hag games... ;D
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: faust on April 01, 2015, 10:09:00 am
Try to avoid playing Swamp Hag and Outpost in the same turn; that Swamp Hag doesn't end up Cursing anyone.

Is that really true? It specifies any other player on the card rather explicitly. Or is that just your way of getting a little April's Fools joke in?

On the cards:

Amulet looks mediocre. I mean, there are board where you open Trade Route, and Amulet will work for that bit of thinning too. But it's not great trashing. +1$ is meh. The Silver thing could be okay with TfB, or maybe Feodum.

Swamp Hag is interesting. It's of course devastating against multiple buys, but once people get to that point, they may have a way to deal with those Curses. And otherwise it will mostly deal out a single Curse, while being a duration (thus played less often). I think it's rather weak compared to other Cursers, which is okay. Multiple of them could lead to similar situations as Torturer - people giving up their turn to not get those Curses (probably the wrong call).

Hireling - finally a permanent Duration, with the most obvious bonus. Best comparison might be Prince. This is considerably easier to set up, and also gives a tiny benefit the turn you play it. It's less strong of course, but I expect it to see more play than Prince. Awesome with 5/2 openings and Baker.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Robz888 on April 01, 2015, 10:09:46 am
With Swamp Hag, they gain a Curse per card that they buy, right? So this is going to be super annoying in enginey Kingdoms where you want to buy a lot of components.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Robz888 on April 01, 2015, 10:11:13 am
Try to avoid playing Swamp Hag and Outpost in the same turn; that Swamp Hag doesn't end up Cursing anyone.

Is that really true? It specifies any other player on the card rather explicitly. Or is that just your way of getting a little April's Fools joke in?

Right, it wouldn't Curse you, but it leaves play after your Outpost turn (that's your "next" turn), so it doesn't hurt anybody else.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: theschizm on April 01, 2015, 10:12:04 am
Try to avoid playing Swamp Hag and Outpost in the same turn; that Swamp Hag doesn't end up Cursing anyone.

Is that really true? It specifies any other player on the card rather explicitly. Or is that just your way of getting a little April's Fools joke in?


The Swamp Hag will go away during your Outpost turn, so you don't get the opportunity to have other players buy cursed items.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: faust on April 01, 2015, 10:12:34 am
Try to avoid playing Swamp Hag and Outpost in the same turn; that Swamp Hag doesn't end up Cursing anyone.

Is that really true? It specifies any other player on the card rather explicitly. Or is that just your way of getting a little April's Fools joke in?

Right, it wouldn't Curse you, but it leaves play after your Outpost turn (that's your "next" turn), so it doesn't hurt anybody else.

Ah, that's the point.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: tripwire on April 01, 2015, 10:14:50 am
The previews today just solidified how good a choice it was to bring duration cards back. Based on many of the previous previews, I was worried things would be a little too difficult for many players I play with to parse (I regularly play with my nephews at family gatherings, and cards that have a ton of moving parts can be tough), but I think a lot of these cards are really straightforward, despite doing new and interesting things. Bringing back durations was a great choice. Thanks Donald!

But man, regardless if Swamp Hag is good or not, pretty sure the people I play with that hate being attacked are going to hate this card even more. Being a sadist, though, I consider that a good thing.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Robz888 on April 01, 2015, 10:16:40 am
Oh, but what was I saying? Oh yes. How Do These Cards Combo With Scout?

Amulet: It's got that nice green gem in the middle of it, so who knows? Maybe Scout will think it's a Victory card and pick it up anyway.

Swamp Hag: You didn't want to buy Scout anyway, so the fact that you would gain a Curse for doing so is moot.

Hireling: This gives you +1 Card, always. So this is drawing you cards you want. And Scout is there for you to draw you the other cards, the ones you don't want (combo).
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: SCSN on April 01, 2015, 10:17:15 am
Amulet looks mediocre. I mean, there are board where you open Trade Route, and Amulet will work for that bit of thinning too. But it's not great trashing. +1$ is meh. The Silver thing could be okay with TfB, or maybe Feodum.

It trashes twice though, which makes it much closer to Steward than to Trade Route. As a trasher I prefer it over Forager, though would open Forager/Amulet over double Amulet.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Rubby on April 01, 2015, 10:18:18 am
So Throne Room - Hireling gives you 2 cards each turn forever.
What does Procession - Hireling do???
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Heisenberg on April 01, 2015, 10:18:42 am
Swamp Hag would be a nombo with possession?
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: LastFootnote on April 01, 2015, 10:19:08 am
So Throne Room - Hireling gives you 2 cards each turn forever.
What does Procession - Hireling do???

Same thing, but the Hireling ends up in the trash.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: GendoIkari on April 01, 2015, 10:19:27 am
So Throne Room - Hireling gives you 2 cards each turn forever.
What does Procession - Hireling do???

Gives you 2 cards each turn forever. And a $7 action, if there is one. Procession stays in play, Hireling goes to the trash.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: LastFootnote on April 01, 2015, 10:19:51 am
Swamp Hag would be a nombo with possession?

Most Attacks are, right?
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: GendoIkari on April 01, 2015, 10:19:53 am
Swamp Hag would be a nombo with possession?

Swamp Hag is not "while this is in play", so it works.

*Edit* lol, read that as "procession".
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: GendoIkari on April 01, 2015, 10:21:38 am
So maybe this is a Secret History question... but why isn't Swamp Hag "while this is in play"? It seems like it would be more natural to read that way. And then it wouldn't need "until your next turn". Of course the difference is that this way it works when Throne Room / Procession / King's Court... was it worded that way just to make it stronger with those?
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Witherweaver on April 01, 2015, 10:24:29 am
Oh, but what was I saying? Oh yes. How Do These Cards Combo With Scout?

Amulet: It's got that nice green gem in the middle of it, so who knows? Maybe Scout will think it's a Victory card and pick it up anyway.

Swamp Hag: You didn't want to buy Scout anyway, so the fact that you would gain a Curse for doing so is moot.

Hireling: This gives you +1 Card, always. So this is drawing you cards you want. And Scout is there for you to draw you the other cards, the ones you don't want (combo).

No, think about it.. Amulet can trash.  It can trash your Coppers so that Scout can better find Victory cards to draw.  Very strong combo.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: lehmacdj on April 01, 2015, 10:26:18 am
So maybe this is a Secret History question... but why isn't Swamp Hag "while this is in play"? It seems like it would be more natural to read that way. And then it wouldn't need "until your next turn". Of course the difference is that this way it works when Throne Room / Procession / King's Court... was it worded that way just to make it stronger with those?

It has to be for the Moat interaction right?
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Witherweaver on April 01, 2015, 10:26:44 am
Amulet looks mediocre. I mean, there are board where you open Trade Route, and Amulet will work for that bit of thinning too. But it's not great trashing. +1$ is meh. The Silver thing could be okay with TfB, or maybe Feodum.

It trashes twice though, which makes it much closer to Steward than to Trade Route. As a trasher I prefer it over Forager, though would open Forager/Amulet over double Amulet.

Yeah, Amulet seems like a split up Steward.  Except you have Gain a Silver instead of Draw.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: GendoIkari on April 01, 2015, 10:28:01 am
So maybe this is a Secret History question... but why isn't Swamp Hag "while this is in play"? It seems like it would be more natural to read that way. And then it wouldn't need "until your next turn". Of course the difference is that this way it works when Throne Room / Procession / King's Court... was it worded that way just to make it stronger with those?

It has to be for the Moat interaction right?

Hmm, not sure. I would think you could still reveal a Moat when it was played and be protected from it even if it were "while in play"...
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: GendoIkari on April 01, 2015, 10:29:34 am

Hireling - finally a permanent Duration, with the most obvious bonus. Best comparison might be Prince. This is considerably easier to set up, and also gives a tiny benefit the turn you play it. It's less strong of course, but I expect it to see more play than Prince. Awesome with 5/2 openings and Baker.

What tiny benefit? The only benefit I can think of is activating Conspirator / Peddler / HoP.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: lehmacdj on April 01, 2015, 10:32:38 am
So maybe this is a Secret History question... but why isn't Swamp Hag "while this is in play"? It seems like it would be more natural to read that way. And then it wouldn't need "until your next turn". Of course the difference is that this way it works when Throne Room / Procession / King's Court... was it worded that way just to make it stronger with those?

It has to be for the Moat interaction right?

Hmm, not sure. I would think you could still reveal a Moat when it was played and be protected from it even if it were "while in play"...

Moat is "when an opponent plays an attack card", and so you are blocking the attack that is being queued up on play.  Not sure it would work this way if it was while this is in play.  But maybe it would because you are "unaffected by the attack".  Either way it seems less confusing like this.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: ConMan on April 01, 2015, 10:33:39 am
I really hope I never have to deal with a game involving multiple chains of Processions ending in Hirelings.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Sidsel on April 01, 2015, 10:37:12 am
The big question is, of course; is there a 'Kill the Hireling' card? (re. Munchkin) And does it gain you a level?
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Heisenberg on April 01, 2015, 10:41:40 am
Quote
Swamp Hag is not "while this is in play", so it works.

*Edit* lol, read that as "procession".

Play Swamp Hag/Possession then if you anything buy while possessing opponent you gain a curse.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: werothegreat on April 01, 2015, 10:42:05 am
Procession(-King's Court-)Hireling will lead to interesting tracking issues.

Since Hireling stays out forever, and Throne Room variants on Durations stay out as long as they do for tracking purposes, a Procession or Throne Room or King's Court on Hireling will also stay out forever.  But you'll draw more cards!
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Watno on April 01, 2015, 10:44:16 am
Well, if you Proc-KC-Hireling, only Hireling stays out, but draws 3 cards every turn.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Heisenberg on April 01, 2015, 10:44:46 am
trade in a procession for an extra hireling and a KC
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: faust on April 01, 2015, 10:47:17 am

Hireling - finally a permanent Duration, with the most obvious bonus. Best comparison might be Prince. This is considerably easier to set up, and also gives a tiny benefit the turn you play it. It's less strong of course, but I expect it to see more play than Prince. Awesome with 5/2 openings and Baker.

What tiny benefit? The only benefit I can think of is activating Conspirator / Peddler / HoP.

My reading skills are seriously affected today. I thought it read "Now and at the start of each turn", probably because that's how Durations are usually phrased.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: werothegreat on April 01, 2015, 10:52:35 am
Well, if you Proc-KC-Hireling, only Hireling stays out, but draws 3 cards every turn.

If you Procession-Procession-Hireling, nothing stays out.

"My imaginary friend draws me 2 cards."
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Asper on April 01, 2015, 10:57:28 am
Short thoughts:
Amulet: Was the only card i could recognize with that german advertisement. I like it. But like with Haunted Forest, i wonder why this name went on an Action card.
Swamp Hag: I tried a similar thing once, which gave +$2 and costed four, but was otherwise the same. So i'm not totally overwhelmed with the newness.
Hireling: I think the best comparison is Alchemist, not Prince. Alchemist ideally behaves like Hireling, except it is more prone to attacks and is conditional. Considering Alchemist allready costs "more" than $5, Hireling seems like a pretty big improvement for that small price difference. Ah well....
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 01, 2015, 11:01:53 am
Amulet seems pretty weak to me compared to JoaT.

Many cards seem that way...

Well, if you Proc-KC-Hireling, only Hireling stays out, but draws 3 cards every turn.

If you Procession-Procession-Hireling, nothing stays out.

"My imaginary friend draws me 2 cards."

Yeah to me this is the weird thing about these cards. It's possible to have to remember the effect without a reminder out on the table. I'm not sure if "if/while this is in play" causes more trouble than this.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: AJD on April 01, 2015, 11:02:35 am
Hireling: I think the best comparison is Alchemist, not Prince. Alchemist ideally behaves like Hireling, except it is more prone to attacks and is conditional. Considering Alchemist allready costs "more" than $5, Hireling seems like a pretty big improvement for that small price difference. Ah well....

Hireling starts working later than Alchemist, though.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on April 01, 2015, 11:03:59 am
Some ways Hireling is weaker than it might initially appear:

- You need to use a terminal action to start the effect
- The effect is delayed by one turn after playing, most Lab variants help you immediately.
- You often play all your Labs every turn (or most turns) anyway
- This is a $6 card which is becomes inaccessible to TfB cards
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: crlundy on April 01, 2015, 11:08:35 am
Well, Swamp Hag is pretty close to a Duration card I had created, so that feels cool. Except that I shot down my card for being too rude in multiplayer. Swamp Hag's apparently still "grim", but hopefully not as annoying as her cousin. Also, interesting to note that Swamp Hag has no benefit for you the turn you play it. Also, is that first line justified?

Amulet seems like almost like a Steward split over two turns. It seems, in general, weak to me. But like everything, it depends on the Kingdom; if this is the only trasher, you can bet I'm getting some. I have faith in the playtesting, though, so it's probably not all that weak. My reaction about the power level is reminding me of Loan.

Has no one compared Hireling to Caravan? Seems apt, imo. You get none of the on-play bonus, but in exchange the Duration part happens forever. Also, Hireling has my favorite art of the three cards here.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: GendoIkari on April 01, 2015, 11:10:31 am
Amulet seems pretty weak to me compared to JoaT.

Many cards seem that way.

They can't all be the best "do a little bit of everything" card ever.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: GendoIkari on April 01, 2015, 11:11:54 am

Well, if you Proc-KC-Hireling, only Hireling stays out, but draws 3 cards every turn.

If you Procession-Procession-Hireling, nothing stays out.

"My imaginary friend draws me 2 cards."

Yeah to me this is the weird thing about these cards. It's possible to have to remember the effect without a reminder out on the table. I'm not sure if "if/while this is in play" causes more trouble than this.

I'd imagine that most people playing this in real life would actually keep the Hireling and the second Procession in play, and just remember that it's technically in the trash, in case of Graverobber or Rogue (or Peddler / HoP).
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: crlundy on April 01, 2015, 11:12:13 am
Well, if you Proc-KC-Hireling, only Hireling stays out, but draws 3 cards every turn.

If you Procession-Procession-Hireling, nothing stays out.

"My imaginary friend draws me 2 cards."

Yeah to me this is the weird thing about these cards. It's possible to have to remember the effect without a reminder out on the table. I'm not sure if "if/while this is in play" causes more trouble than this.

I would have expected Hireling to be "Trash this. Take a Hireling token. | In games using this, at the start of every turn, +1 Card per Hireling token you've taken." But components always make things complicated and this set already has them...
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Donald X. on April 01, 2015, 11:25:33 am
So maybe this is a Secret History question... but why isn't Swamp Hag "while this is in play"? It seems like it would be more natural to read that way. And then it wouldn't need "until your next turn". Of course the difference is that this way it works when Throne Room / Procession / King's Court... was it worded that way just to make it stronger with those?
I messed around with the wording to get to what it is. Originally it was "while in play." Moat may have been what got that changed, as well as general simplicity. Some phrasings had issues with Outpost.

In general I prefer letting Throne work with stuff if it's not a problem; if the best phrasing rules out Throne though, I don't mind so much. Here obv. we felt Throne was okay.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: popsofctown on April 01, 2015, 11:26:33 am
Amulet's my favorite, it's tricky to decide whether you want it and creates little choices even after you buy it.

Hireling's alright too.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Donald X. on April 01, 2015, 11:27:08 am
Yeah to me this is the weird thing about these cards. It's possible to have to remember the effect without a reminder out on the table. I'm not sure if "if/while this is in play" causes more trouble than this.
It is a weird thing about Procession plus duration cards; it's not something these cards are adding.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: LastFootnote on April 01, 2015, 11:28:03 am
Amulet's my favorite, it's tricky to decide whether you want it and creates little choices even after you buy it.

I hate to be a downer, but in my experience you want Amulet very, very often. It is not weak by a long shot.

Then again I am not a top player, so take that with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Donald X. on April 01, 2015, 11:30:08 am
Hireling: I think the best comparison is Alchemist, not Prince. Alchemist ideally behaves like Hireling, except it is more prone to attacks and is conditional. Considering Alchemist allready costs "more" than $5, Hireling seems like a pretty big improvement for that small price difference. Ah well....
In fact Hireling started out in the Alchemist slot in Alchemy. I couldn't do it there because it would have needed a mat. Then of course it ended up dodging the mat by being a duration card.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: markusin on April 01, 2015, 11:33:13 am
Embargo the entire supply for a turn? Sure, that can work.

I like Amulet. It also reminds me of Steward. You can't draw with it though, which makes it a bit weaker for engines. But light trashing but Silver gaining looks good for money-centric strategies.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: XerxesPraelor on April 01, 2015, 11:35:22 am
Somehow all the cards are said to be the exact opposite power level I imagined them to be on first glance. That's probably not a coincidence.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: jonts26 on April 01, 2015, 11:37:32 am
Amulet's my favorite, it's tricky to decide whether you want it and creates little choices even after you buy it.

I hate to be a downer, but in my experience you want Amulet very, very often. It is not weak by a long shot.

Then again I am not a top player, so take that with a grain of salt.

That was my experience too. Amulet is a power card. It's probably worse than steward but few $3 aren't.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: GendoIkari on April 01, 2015, 11:42:10 am
Yeah to me this is the weird thing about these cards. It's possible to have to remember the effect without a reminder out on the table. I'm not sure if "if/while this is in play" causes more trouble than this.
It is a weird thing about Procession plus duration cards; it's not something these cards are adding.

This is somewhat true, but Hireling makes the problem worse, because you have to remember for the rest of the game, not just until your next turn.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 01, 2015, 11:44:36 am
Thoughts:

Amulet:
Okay, I'm going to go a bit soap-box-y here first. Mic often talks about how people don't realize that lots of Dominion cards are swingy, it's the nature of the game. He is absolutely right. How many of you saw this card and though "Wow, that's really swingy". It IS incredibly swingy. Let's assume I opened with this card, intending to get some fast trashing (which I believe you very often will). If I draw it on turn 3 (5/12 chance), then by my second reshuffle (between turns 4 and 5), I will have trashed two cards, and this will be waiting for me to play again in the next shuffle. Getting it turn 5 (2/12 chance) sucks, I haven't gotten to play it at all - this is true of all cards. Getting it turn 4(5/12 chance) is probably a bit better than turn 5, but not tons - and it is WAY worse than turn 3. When I get tot he shuffle in this case, I have trashed 1 card rather than 2, plus this card itself is missing the shuffle. That means that by the time I get to my NEXT shuffle, I may have trashed only 2 cards rather than 4. Or maybe it's 3. In any case, getting it turn 3 is a big advantage. I don't think people will think about or realize this, and just find themselves in a midgame way ahead or way behind, and not realize why. Well, this makes a big difference. I don't know how feel-bad it is - people seem to feel this a lot more on attacks - but in terms of winning the game, it's real. That doesn't mean I think this card is bad design, by any stretch - I think I like it, at least at first blush - but it is something to be aware of.

Okay, how good is it though? Seems pretty good, not amazing. Splitting up the money over two turns is usually worse than silver, even neglecting that it's a terminal action. Gaining a couple silvers might be a thing for slogs, but in general isn't great. Trashing two, now that is the real strength (usually). You get to do it while still having a bit of a hand, too, so this can be especially good if there are 3s and 4s you want to pick up. Generally has to be worse than Steward for engines, I guess, though.

Flexibility on the card definitely helps it. And the silver-gaining probably makes it decent for BM (even a little trashing can be good there, this will be tricky to play) and probably rather good in slogs, come to think of it. So overall, pretty strong, but not gamebreaking.

Swamp Hag
Attack is obviously pretty strong, at least potentially. I mean, they don't have to buy anything though. Well, not letting them buy would be really strong. But being able to pick their spots, that is some real downside. Sometimes, you just take the darn thing. Obviously this will be at its best against engines which want to buy lots of things but lack trashing - it can kind of lock those down, or at least stop some of their turns. But in general, the card seems pretty weak. Biggest reason is, $3 once in two turns is just a quite weak effect for you, trashing can obsolete this, just playing around it isn't the hardest thing ever, there are defensive cards, and most other cursers seem as though they will just be better.

Hireling
Card is just a lab you're guaranteed to have every turn. A little better than that vs discard attacks. Costs 6. What deck wants this? Big Money? Maaaybe, but probably not by a lot. Engine? You don't want to use this as your main source of draw (or if you do, only really rarely) as it's very slow to set up. Costing 6 is real. But if I am drawing my deck every turn, I would play Lab anyway. Lab isn't the greatest card anyway. This is better than lab once you've played it of course, as it gives you reliability, but it's harder to get, and you have to play it as a terminal do-nothing first. That is a real cost that I don't think people will realize enough. I'm sure you will pick the card up sometimes, probably mostly in engines for that extra reliability. But it actually looks fairly weak (despite the obviously good effect). Pretty mediocre, never truly bad.


PPE: 17 replies while I was typing....
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Holger on April 01, 2015, 11:57:07 am
Embargo the entire supply for a turn? Sure, that can work.

To me Swamp Hag seems to drastically increase the risk of stalemate games, especially in games without gainers - one SH hurts the opponents about as much as two Torturers, and 2 SH as much as 3 Torturers, even when there's no extra buys. And unlike Torturer, an opponent can easily retaliate on his next turn (keeping a 5-card hand without having to take Curses himself), giving all players a serious disincentive to buy any cards if played regularly.
(But then, SH being a Duration mitigates this risk.)
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: TheOthin on April 01, 2015, 12:04:50 pm
Amulet missing reshuffles is unfortunate, but trashing the worst card from each of two hands has to be noticeably better than trashing the two worst cards from one hand. That won't make it as great as Steward but it should help it hold up.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 01, 2015, 12:10:44 pm
Amulet missing reshuffles is unfortunate, but trashing the worst card from each of two hands has to be noticeably better than trashing the two worst cards from one hand. That won't make it as great as Steward but it should help it hold up.

The real reason it's going to be worse than Steward in engines is that it's so much weaker once you have trashed down. +2 cards is pretty good in an engine actually, and the split between that and the money would mean I want extra Stewards in engines fairly often. Amulet is very lackluster for your engine once you have trashed down - $1 and Gain a Silver are both unimpressive effects for that kind of deck.

Trashing split up is nice, maybe enough to make up for the missing shuffles (I'm guessing it depends on the board but usually isn't), but it's the other abilities that really set the two apart.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: LastFootnote on April 01, 2015, 12:17:54 pm
Hireling gets stronger the sooner you get it into play. In general it's not at strong as it looks, but it can be huge if you get it early.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: SmithySmithy on April 01, 2015, 12:24:32 pm
That Swamp Hag though...
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: GendoIkari on April 01, 2015, 12:25:50 pm
I have a fun Hireling story that I can't tell yet.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: crlundy on April 01, 2015, 12:30:00 pm
Hireling gets stronger the sooner you get it into play. In general it's not at strong as it looks, but it can be huge if you get it early.

I think with 5/2, Baker in the Kingdom, I'd open Hireling. Invest in your future.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: JacquesTheBard on April 01, 2015, 01:21:02 pm
Swamp Hag does terrible things to Goons engines.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: faust on April 01, 2015, 01:47:42 pm
Swamp Hag does terrible things to Goons engines.

Not with Watchtower! (where's lio, by the way?)
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: crlundy on April 01, 2015, 02:01:21 pm
Hey, Swamp Hag provides a way to "Embargo" the Black Market deck.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: joel88s on April 01, 2015, 02:20:57 pm

Amulet:
Okay, I'm going to go a bit soap-box-y here first. Mic often talks about how people don't realize that lots of Dominion cards are swingy, it's the nature of the game. He is absolutely right. How many of you saw this card and though "Wow, that's really swingy". It IS incredibly swingy. Let's assume I opened with this card, intending to get some fast trashing (which I believe you very often will). If I draw it on turn 3 (5/12 chance), then by my second reshuffle (between turns 4 and 5), I will have trashed two cards, and this will be waiting for me to play again in the next shuffle. Getting it turn 5 (2/12 chance) sucks, I haven't gotten to play it at all - this is true of all cards. Getting it turn 4(5/12 chance) is probably a bit better than turn 5, but not tons - and it is WAY worse than turn 3.

Guess you need to open Amulet-Sage. "Accio Amulet!
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: -Stef- on April 01, 2015, 02:31:56 pm
Hireling gets stronger the sooner you get it into play. In general it's not at strong as it looks, but it can be huge if you get it early.

I think with 5/2, Baker in the Kingdom, I'd open Hireling. Invest in your future.

That does not sound like a good plan at all.
You start out with a crappy deck, full of coppers and estates.
Then you spend the first 3 turns making sure you get those coppers more quickly and reliably.

It's a bit like opening Tactician/-, playing it on turn 3 and then turn 4 BEWM you draw it all and... still can't do anything impressive.

Sure you don't want hireling super late but first putting something in your deck that actually does something sounds like a good idea.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: florrat on April 01, 2015, 02:44:08 pm
I think with 5/2, Baker in the Kingdom, I'd open Hireling. Invest in your future.
I think opening Hireling is pretty bad, actually. Not that it's bad for your deck, but most terminal cards will be able to improve your deck faster. For example, compare it with Smithy: Smithy gives you +3 Cards when you play it, Hireling gives those 3 cards 3 turns after you played it. 3 turns is a lot of time, by then you've probably played your Smithy already a second time. So Smithy gives you cards faster than Hireling. Sure, it costs some actions after the first time, but we're comparing a $4 and a $6 cost card.

From a different point of view: you also don't want to open Lab. Sure, Hireling is better than Lab, but also don't forget that Hireling does nothing right now, and it takes a while till Hireling has drawn more cards than playing a Lab every other turn.

EDIT: Ninja'd
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: crlundy on April 01, 2015, 02:49:51 pm
It was meant kind of as a joke because Gold would probably be better at getting your deck up and running. But it doesn't seem so bad that I wouldn't be willing to try it once. Especially if there's a good $2 in the Kingdom.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Asper on April 01, 2015, 03:19:36 pm
Quote from: LastFootnote topic=12880.msg477703#msg477703 date=1427902083
Amulet's my favorite, it's tricky to decide whether you want it and creates little choices even after you buy it.

I hate to be a downer, but in my experience you want Amulet very, very often. It is not weak by a long shot.

Then again I am not a top player, so take that with a grain of salt.

You mean, you want Amulet ALWAYS? Oh no, my Rebuild trauma returns!!

*rolls himself up in the corner*

Oh wait, you can't win a game with Amulet alone. Carry on, then.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: werothegreat on April 01, 2015, 03:21:12 pm
Quote from: LastFootnote topic=12880.msg477703#msg477703 date=1427902083
Amulet's my favorite, it's tricky to decide whether you want it and creates little choices even after you buy it.

I hate to be a downer, but in my experience you want Amulet very, very often. It is not weak by a long shot.

Then again I am not a top player, so take that with a grain of salt.

You mean, you want Amulet ALWAYS? Oh no, my Rebuild trauma returns!!

*rolls himself up in the corner*

Oh wait, you can't win a game with Amulet alone. Carry on, then.

Look, Asper: a simple card.  :)
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: swedenman on April 01, 2015, 03:26:06 pm
These cards all look interesting, but none of them seem that powerful.

Amulet's greatest strength seems to be its trashing, but the other two effects are pretty weak in the sort of slim engine that that trashing provides you.

Swamp Hag looks decent but other cursers seem preferable. I mean, if you play a Sea Hag, your opponent gets a Curse, then he buys a card on his turn. If you play a Swamp Hag, the outcome might be the same (your opponent buys a card, gets a Curse), or he might just buy nothing and avoid the Curse. It puts him through the agony of choosing, I guess, but from a strategic perspective it gives him relatively more options. And the +$3 on your next turn looks good, but there are likely other $5 actions that can provide you greater benefits. If I had to guess, there are two main situations in which Swamp Hag will shine: When your opponent wants to buy more than 1 card per turn but lacks the trashing to take a bunch of Curses willy-nilly; and when you can consistently get multiple into play. I don't imagine the latter situation arising too often. Swamp Hags are expensive, and by the time you actually get an engine up and running that can play multiple in a turn, the benefit of cursing your opponent will have dwindled (though it could still be valuable). However, I imagine this card will do pretty well against engines with weak trashing. Also, this card will probably still be relevant any time it's the only curser on the board.

As for Hireling, I'm not sure I see the point. It's marginally more consistent than Lab, but generally I imagine that spending that $6 hand on 1 or 2 cheaper engine components to make your deck more reliable will be better than buying a Hireling. It seems pretty good with TR/KC, though no longer having those cards in your deck could really hurt you. I mean, at the end of the day, it is a Lab variant, and in the absence of better Lab variants it could still be really useful, but it definitely seems to be among the weaker of its class.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: iguanaiguana on April 01, 2015, 03:29:27 pm
Swamp hag combos nicely with friendly interaction cards like lost city. Personally I think it looks stronger than people are currently giving it credit for, though probably less strong in the presence of other more direct cursers?
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: werothegreat on April 01, 2015, 03:33:05 pm
These cards all look interesting, but none of them seem that powerful.

I think the intent might be to make balanced cards, rather than souped-up Goons and Mountebanks, particularly after Rebuild.  :/
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: jsh357 on April 01, 2015, 03:35:45 pm
Like in every set, there are cards that are going to be powerful and cards that are going to be more situational.  I don't personally think this set is any more centralizing than others, though some may disagree.  There's a good overall power level, I think.  I'd compare it to Dark Ages.  Maybe a few toe the line, but it doesn't actually hurt the game.  It makes things more interesting.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: liopoil on April 01, 2015, 03:44:45 pm
Swamp Hag does terrible things to Goons engines.

Not with Watchtower! (where's lio, by the way?)
Ugh, watchtower is too popular, everyone beat me to it :(

Yes, watchtower kills swamp hag, which is why swamp hag seems pretty weak in general.

Watchtower-amulet engine can be decent, but you need a lot of actions... CotR?

hireling huh. Watchtower topdecks it so you can play it ASAP, which is important.

And so I don't have to go to the other thread, haunted woods:

Wow, so, uh, watchtower doesn't counter this one. In fact you can't topdeck cards you buy with watchtower when haunted woods is in play. People beat me to this one too. Here it is folks; haunted woods, the first ever counter to watchtower, and now my least-favorite card. Not really though.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: GendoIkari on April 01, 2015, 03:58:53 pm
Swamp Hag does terrible things to Goons engines.

Not with Watchtower! (where's lio, by the way?)
Ugh, watchtower is too popular, everyone beat me to it :(

Yes, watchtower kills swamp hag, which is why swamp hag seems pretty weak in general.


I don't really get this (unless it was also part of the tiny-text joke). Moat kills Swamp Hag too. But the vast majority of times that Swamp Hag is on the board, Watchtower will not be. You can't really say a card is weaker just because another card exists, can you?
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Beyond Awesome on April 01, 2015, 04:00:00 pm
My thoughts on said cards.

Amulet: I think this card is more powerful than many people realize. Being able to split trashing between two turns seems strong, and once its value as a trasher has ran out, you can use it for virtual coin or gain silver. Most trashers lose power once your deck is trashed. Sure, Steward can draw and gain coin, but compared to other trashers, Amulet seems up there.

Swamp Hag: Seems like an overall weaker curser, but that isn't a bad thing. Most cursers in the past are almost must buys, so to have one that you won't want to buy in every game is not a bad thing. Although, I still see this getting bought often, but with this being a duration, it seems an attack that you would need to buy more of than normal.

Hireling: An extra card is reasonably strong. In many Prince games I have played, usually the player who connects his Prince to a draw card first ends up winning. Hireling is sort of like that, but you don't need to go through as many hoops and ladders.

Haunted Woods: I don't have much of an opinion on this yet. In some games, I can actually see it helping the opponent, letting them put down unplayed actions for the next turn. Though, later in the game, it can really get in the way of things. It's probably reasonably strong. Also, drawing +3 cards at the start of a turn is like drawing 4 cards since this is already in play and you start with a 5 card hand, so there is that.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: liopoil on April 01, 2015, 04:03:07 pm
Swamp Hag does terrible things to Goons engines.

Not with Watchtower! (where's lio, by the way?)
Ugh, watchtower is too popular, everyone beat me to it :(

Yes, watchtower kills swamp hag, which is why swamp hag seems pretty weak in general.


I don't really get this (unless it was also part of the tiny-text joke). Moat kills Swamp Hag too. But the vast majority of times that Swamp Hag is on the board, Watchtower will not be. You can't really say a card is weaker just because another card exists, can you?
Yes, that certainly isn't WHY swamp hag is weak. I just like to give credit to watchtower for making it weak for no real reason. In truth it's just weak because it isn't very good.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Asper on April 01, 2015, 04:05:47 pm
For those that think Swamp Hag is weak, i can't tell for sure as i only playtested my variant (a $4, giving +$2 this turn), but that one was very strong. $5 is much more than $4 (think how much better Witch is than Young Witch), but then again Swamp Hag gives $3, and that's what certain other $5-terminals will often be worth without having this rather mean attack.

Quote from: LastFootnote topic=12880.msg477703#msg477703 date=1427902083
Amulet's my favorite, it's tricky to decide whether you want it and creates little choices even after you buy it.

I hate to be a downer, but in my experience you want Amulet very, very often. It is not weak by a long shot.

Then again I am not a top player, so take that with a grain of salt.

You mean, you want Amulet ALWAYS? Oh no, my Rebuild trauma returns!!

*rolls himself up in the corner*

Oh wait, you can't win a game with Amulet alone. Carry on, then.

Look, Asper: a simple card.  :)

I allready stopped nagging. Storyteller aside, i didn't really critizise any card that was previewed. I even stated that i had the same idea as Swamp Hag before myself. Also i'm not the only one, it seems.
And Haunted Woods - well, i recently pondered posting a Duration card that would let anyone gaining a Victory card put it on top of his deck, and decided against it mostly because i couldn't find a bonus to go with it. I like the Reserves apart from the play-means-not-in-play-do-not-play-means-in-play thing.

I also came to the conclusion that Moat/Duration-Attacks isn't exactly a beautiful interaction, but as Dominion has grown so huge by now, it's not likely to appear in random games anyhow. It's not more likely than, let's say, Ironworks/Trader, and i can't even remember how that one works out. Lighthouse can only become strange with Outpost, Possession and such, as otherwise having a last-turn Lighthouse will always mean you are save, while a this-turn-Lighthouse doesn't. If you can't remember whether your Lighthouse protected you against Swamp Hag, you probably shouldn't play any Durations.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: GendoIkari on April 01, 2015, 04:06:47 pm
Could Swamp Hag be the second player advantage card?

Player 1 plays Swamp Hag on turn 3.
Player 2 plays Swamp Hag on turn 3 - chooses to not buy anything because he doesn't want a Curse... so he wastes the 4 non-Swamp Hag cards from his hand.
Player 1's turn 4... he has 5 cards plus an extra $3. He's wasting a lot more if he doesn't buy to avoid the Curse.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 01, 2015, 04:46:19 pm
I feel like it'll be obvious when we see the second player advantage card. Donald having to say, "Guys it's Swamp Hag" sounds like the type of strategic advice he doesn't like to give.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: GendoIkari on April 01, 2015, 04:49:57 pm
The second player advantage card is actually Scout... because if both players buy it on Turn 1, Player 1 has to have it for a longer time.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: jsh357 on April 01, 2015, 04:51:07 pm
What makes you think the second player advantage card is even in the previews?  Keep guessing though, it's entertaining to me.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: werothegreat on April 01, 2015, 04:57:49 pm
What makes you think the second player advantage card is even in the previews?  Keep guessing though, it's entertaining to me.

Is it your favorite card?  I was pretty convinced it had to be Lost City, though.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Co0kieL0rd on April 01, 2015, 05:19:24 pm
Amulet looks nice and solid.
Swamp Hag, otoh, looks quite annoying, even more so than that other hag. I know people who are gonna hate this. I can hardly believe people had fun games while testing it.
Hireling I like but, as you expected, $6 seems cheap to me. Apparently it's alright, though. In that case, great card!
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Witherweaver on April 01, 2015, 05:21:56 pm
Swamp Hag, otoh, looks quite annoying, even more so than that other hag. I know people who are gonna hate this. I can hardly believe people had fun games while testing it.

I'm assuming there was alcohol involved.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: blueblimp on April 01, 2015, 05:25:01 pm
A nice plus of Amulet that I don't think has been mentioned yet is that it leaves you with a 3-card hand on the turn you play it. Most multi-card trashers have the downside that you can't buy anything on the turn you play them (except if there's a good $2 in the kingdom). Amulet dodges this downside. Consider drawing AmCCCE, trashing Estate, and buying Village or even Silver if you need one. That's considerably less awkward than drawing Steward with CCCE, trashing Copper plus Estate, then buying nothing. Amulet may still be a less effective early trasher than Steward because it misses shuffles more easily.

Because it's easy enough to buy a Silver while trashing with Amulet, or even gain one from Amulet if you get really desperate, I don't see much reason to open Amulet/Silver. I think Amulet/Amulet will be the preferred opening when you want to open Amulet. This helps prevent the effect WW was talking about where not playing an Amulet on T3 puts you behind.

Hireling is comparable to Alchemist. In fact, it matches up with the old version of Alchemist mentioned in http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=118.0 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=118.0). I think it will be quite a bit stronger than Alchemist. Like Alchemist, you'll want to skip this sometimes because it's slow, but less often than you skip Alchemist.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: TheOthin on April 01, 2015, 05:31:05 pm
Even if Swamp Hag is noticeably weaker than other cursers, it could be a nice change of pace given how overwhelming they can be.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: eHalcyon on April 01, 2015, 05:47:13 pm
A nice plus of Amulet that I don't think has been mentioned yet is that it leaves you with a 3-card hand on the turn you play it. Most multi-card trashers have the downside that you can't buy anything on the turn you play them (except if there's a good $2 in the kingdom). Amulet dodges this downside. Consider drawing AmCCCE, trashing Estate, and buying Village or even Silver if you need one. That's considerably less awkward than drawing Steward with CCCE, trashing Copper plus Estate, then buying nothing. Amulet may still be a less effective early trasher than Steward because it misses shuffles more easily.

Because it's easy enough to buy a Silver while trashing with Amulet, or even gain one from Amulet if you get really desperate, I don't see much reason to open Amulet/Silver. I think Amulet/Amulet will be the preferred opening when you want to open Amulet. This helps prevent the effect WW was talking about where not playing an Amulet on T3 puts you behind.

Hireling is comparable to Alchemist. In fact, it matches up with the old version of Alchemist mentioned in http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=118.0 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=118.0). I think it will be quite a bit stronger than Alchemist. Like Alchemist, you'll want to skip this sometimes because it's slow, but less often than you skip Alchemist.

But would Amulet/Amulet be better than Steward/Steward?  What about Steward/Amulet?
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Gherald on April 01, 2015, 06:30:43 pm
Amulet/Amulet vs Amulet/Steward depends on the other engine components available.  If there's a lot of village action, a Steward is better.  If it's more on the BM side of things or there's other actions you also want to be playing and not a huge amount of village support, the 2nd Amulet is better.

In general I don't think Amulet will be ignored much, like Forager it's one of those cards you usually want to get 1 whenever you see it.  But it does depend on the board, and sure it's more skippable than a Masquerade or Ambassador.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Beyond Awesome on April 01, 2015, 06:37:11 pm
A nice plus of Amulet that I don't think has been mentioned yet is that it leaves you with a 3-card hand on the turn you play it. Most multi-card trashers have the downside that you can't buy anything on the turn you play them (except if there's a good $2 in the kingdom). Amulet dodges this downside. Consider drawing AmCCCE, trashing Estate, and buying Village or even Silver if you need one. That's considerably less awkward than drawing Steward with CCCE, trashing Copper plus Estate, then buying nothing. Amulet may still be a less effective early trasher than Steward because it misses shuffles more easily.

Because it's easy enough to buy a Silver while trashing with Amulet, or even gain one from Amulet if you get really desperate, I don't see much reason to open Amulet/Silver. I think Amulet/Amulet will be the preferred opening when you want to open Amulet. This helps prevent the effect WW was talking about where not playing an Amulet on T3 puts you behind.

Hireling is comparable to Alchemist. In fact, it matches up with the old version of Alchemist mentioned in http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=118.0 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=118.0). I think it will be quite a bit stronger than Alchemist. Like Alchemist, you'll want to skip this sometimes because it's slow, but less often than you skip Alchemist.

But would Amulet/Amulet be better than Steward/Steward?  What about Steward/Amulet?

They both trash the same, but I think Amulet/Amulet would be better because you get more buying power when you use it to trash. If Steward is the only draw, you can pick it up later on, I think.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: jaketheyak on April 01, 2015, 08:36:52 pm
I love that Hireling gives a permanent discount to Peddler/bonus to HoP.
Probably not the most important aspect of the card, but it's those little synergies that I love the most about Dominion.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: SheCanSayNo on April 01, 2015, 09:14:28 pm
Now that I'm the new official SheCan(t)SayNo, I'll give everybody my valuable insight on these cards.

Amulet: One of the strongest cards in the game. You can gain two Silvers every time you play it! I'm guessing the other two options are just there so that the card isn't dead once the Silvers run out. This doesn't hold a candle to Trader or Masterpiece, but it's still likely to be the best Silver gainer on the board. Usually you want to win this split.

Swamp Hag: A strong attack. If your opponent plays this once, you gain a Curse for every Silver you buy. Luckily the Curses will run out long before the Silvers, but it still hurts. I predict Amulet will be a great counter, allowing you to gain Silvers without buying them.

Hireling: Extra insurance to make sure you draw enough Silvers to buy a Province. I'd say you usually want one or two of these, but after that your $6 hands should be spent on Silvers.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: jaketheyak on April 01, 2015, 09:21:17 pm
Amulet: One of the strongest cards in the game. You can gain two Silvers every time you play it! I'm guessing the other two options are just there so that the card isn't dead once the Silvers run out. This doesn't hold a candle to Trader or Masterpiece, but it's still likely to be the best Silver gainer on the board. Usually you want to win this split.

You can also use it to trash two Feoda to gain six silvers!
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: SheCanSayNo on April 01, 2015, 09:22:55 pm
Amulet: One of the strongest cards in the game. You can gain two Silvers every time you play it! I'm guessing the other two options are just there so that the card isn't dead once the Silvers run out. This doesn't hold a candle to Trader or Masterpiece, but it's still likely to be the best Silver gainer on the board. Usually you want to win this split.

You can also use it to trash two Feoda to gain six silvers!

/me passes out

You just blew my mind.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Rubby on April 01, 2015, 09:24:29 pm
Amulet: One of the strongest cards in the game. You can gain two Silvers every time you play it! I'm guessing the other two options are just there so that the card isn't dead once the Silvers run out. This doesn't hold a candle to Trader or Masterpiece, but it's still likely to be the best Silver gainer on the board. Usually you want to win this split.

You can also use it to trash two Feoda to gain six silvers!

Huge dilemma, though: at the $3 price point, it competes with Silver!
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: werothegreat on April 01, 2015, 09:25:13 pm
So, the art.

Amulet: It kind of looks like an item from a 90s 8-bit fantasy computer game.  I like it.

Swamp Hag: Beautiful, but the woman looks too pretty to be, well, a hag.

Hireling: The blue of the picture just kind of clashes with the orange frame, but not in an ugly way - it just kind of holds your eye.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Minotaur on April 01, 2015, 09:55:35 pm
I'm assuming that you have to have to reveal Moat when the hag is played, and in that case you're protected during your turn.  If a Moat enters your hand sometime later in your upcoming turn, then sorry - it's too late.

Lighthouse is in play when you buy something if and only if it was already in play when the Hag was played, so no issue there, I don't think.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Minotaur on April 01, 2015, 09:57:22 pm
Throne-Hireling... From how previous Durations work, I assume both cards stay in play indefinitely, and you get the two cards each time.  And Procession-Hireling is even crazier, if there's a $7 action on the board that you can gain... and you don't even have to set the Procession aside forever, because it's not stuck to the Hireling.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: eHalcyon on April 01, 2015, 10:00:56 pm
I'm assuming that you have to have to reveal Moat when the hag is played, and in that case you're protected during your turn.  If a Moat enters your hand sometime later in your upcoming turn, then sorry - it's too late.

Lighthouse is in play when you buy something if and only if it was already in play when the Hag was played, so no issue there, I don't think.

I have no Lighthouse in play.  You play Swamp Hag.  On my turn, I play Lighthouse.  Now Lighthouse is in play when I am buying something, but I will still gain a Curse because it wasn't in play when the Hag was played.

Throne-Hireling... From how previous Durations work, I assume both cards stay in play indefinitely, and you get the two cards each time.  And Procession-Hireling is even crazier, if there's a $7 action on the board that you can gain... and you don't even have to set the Procession aside forever, because it's not stuck to the Hireling.

If you play Procession on a Duration, Procession still stays in play to remind you despite the card being trashed.  Procession-Hireling will keep Procession in play forever.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Minotaur on April 01, 2015, 10:04:47 pm
I'm assuming that you have to have to reveal Moat when the hag is played, and in that case you're protected during your turn.  If a Moat enters your hand sometime later in your upcoming turn, then sorry - it's too late.

Lighthouse is in play when you buy something if and only if it was already in play when the Hag was played, so no issue there, I don't think.

I have no Lighthouse in play.  You play Swamp Hag.  On my turn, I play Lighthouse.  Now Lighthouse is in play when I am buying something, but I will still gain a Curse because it wasn't in play when the Hag was played.

Oh, right.  I should've read the actual card.  Thanks.  X-P
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Witherweaver on April 01, 2015, 10:34:22 pm
SheCanSayNo can't say no to Silvers.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: jaketheyak on April 01, 2015, 10:48:52 pm
Swamp Hag: Beautiful, but the woman looks too pretty to be, well, a hag.

There is a D&D monster called a Green Hag (or Greenhag, depending on edition) that lives in swamps.
Its natural appearance is that of a twisted, horrible, green-skinned crone.
It has the ability to magically disguise itself as a beautiful maiden in order to lure unsuspecting victims to their deaths.

As with most things D&D, there is considerable pre-existing folklore behind this though, so I'm by no means suggesting this is necessarily where the idea for this card came from.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: polot38 on April 04, 2015, 11:25:24 am
I actually think amulet looks like (possibly) one of the strongest cards in the game- or at the very least a major trasher. It is like a steward mixed with a JoaT. Let me explain the benefits;

-In big money it can trash estates quickly and gain a ton of silvers. Sure, it can miss the shuffle, but then you could just get an extra one. If you have already trashed your estates, you can gain a ton of silvers, or trash coppers.
-In engines it is also very good. It trashes two cards with every play, and doesn't gum up your deck as much after it is done trashing (if you play it), so i'd prefer it over steward in most cases, especially if you are fighting over villages. Also, the duration effect gives you a better selection of cards to trash; if you play steward, you might do something like trash copper/estate where with amulet you could trash double estate, amulet is less likely to be unable to trash due to not having enough trashable cards in your hand, and amulet doesn't instantly destroy your chances of buying anything on the turn that you play it.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Beyond Awesome on April 06, 2015, 07:58:38 am
I actually think amulet looks like (possibly) one of the strongest cards in the game- or at the very least a major trasher. It is like a steward mixed with a JoaT. Let me explain the benefits;

-In big money it can trash estates quickly and gain a ton of silvers. Sure, it can miss the shuffle, but then you could just get an extra one. If you have already trashed your estates, you can gain a ton of silvers, or trash coppers.
-In engines it is also very good. It trashes two cards with every play, and doesn't gum up your deck as much after it is done trashing (if you play it), so i'd prefer it over steward in most cases, especially if you are fighting over villages. Also, the duration effect gives you a better selection of cards to trash; if you play steward, you might do something like trash copper/estate where with amulet you could trash double estate, amulet is less likely to be unable to trash due to not having enough trashable cards in your hand, and amulet doesn't instantly destroy your chances of buying anything on the turn that you play it.

You also have more cards in your hands vs. trashing with Steward. I'm pretty sure a lot of times the correct opening will be Amulet/Amulet
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Asper on April 11, 2015, 06:36:00 am
I don't think this was asked before: If i have Hireling in play and i have no cards (except cards on mats or Durations in play), do i discard Hireling because it won't have an effect? I assume no, just checking.

Edit: Just re-read it, and i guess you can never be sure it won't do anything "for the rest of the game". So it should stay out. Sorry for the dumb question.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 11, 2015, 07:27:25 am
I don't think this was asked before: If i have Hireling in play and i have no cards (except cards on mats or Durations in play), do i discard Hireling because it won't have an effect? I assume no, just checking.

Edit: Just re-read it, and i guess you can never be sure it won't do anything "for the rest of the game". So it should stay out. Sorry for the dumb question.

That it's for the rest of the game doesn't even matter - game doesn't know you won't gain cards on opponents' turn; they just stay out.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: GendoIkari on April 11, 2015, 09:44:50 am
I don't think this was asked before: If i have Hireling in play and i have no cards (except cards on mats or Durations in play), do i discard Hireling because it won't have an effect? I assume no, just checking.

Edit: Just re-read it, and i guess you can never be sure it won't do anything "for the rest of the game". So it should stay out. Sorry for the dumb question.

That it's for the rest of the game doesn't even matter - game doesn't know you won't gain cards on opponents' turn; they just stay out.

Heck, even if it DID know you won't gain cards on your opponent's turn, like say in a solitaire game (ok, solitaire games are technically outside of the rules, but still), I would argue that it doesn't know that it won't draw a card for you until the moment that you attempt to draw a card and fail.

This situation already existed with Caravan actually. If you play Caravan with less than 6 cards between your deck and discard pile, it stays out, even in a solitaire game. Actually, if it didn't, then there's a paradox. You discard Caravan, so now there's a card that Caravan should have drawn, so Caravan should stay in play. But if it stays in play, there's nothing for it to draw, so it is discarded....
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: pst on April 12, 2015, 03:26:27 am
This situation already existed with Caravan actually. If you play Caravan with less than 6 cards between your deck and discard pile, it stays out, even in a solitaire game. Actually, if it didn't, then there's a paradox. You discard Caravan, so now there's a card that Caravan should have drawn, so Caravan should stay in play. But if it stays in play, there's nothing for it to draw, so it is discarded....

The rules tread on a thin line. If they had been slightly different there would have been a paradox, and the universe might have disappeared in a puff of logic!
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Donald X. on April 12, 2015, 12:19:13 pm
The rules tread on a thin line. If they had been slightly different there would have been a paradox, and the universe might have disappeared in a puff of logic!
Godel's Incompleteness Caravan: Action - Duration, $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
At the start of your next turn, this sentence is false.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: markusin on April 12, 2015, 12:57:25 pm
I just see it as attempting to draw is still considered doing something. If the card draw was conditional on having 6 or more cards across you hand, deck, discard, and play area, then you would discard Caravan on the turn you play it if you had less than 6 cards.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: enfynet on April 12, 2015, 01:24:18 pm
I just see it as attempting to draw is still considered doing something. If the card draw was conditional on having 6 or more cards across you hand, deck, discard, and play area, then you would discard Caravan on the turn you play it if you had less than 6 cards.
"Do as much as you can" ruling says it stays out even if you have only the cards in your hand. It will still attempt the +1 Card at the start of your next turn.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 16, 2015, 06:40:55 am
I know of one person who'll be excited about Adventures:

If there were an attack card that gave someone a curse every time they bought something during their turn, I would be satisfied.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Awaclus on April 16, 2015, 07:04:24 am
I know of one person who'll be excited about Adventures:

If there were an attack card that gave someone a curse every time they bought something during their turn, I would be satisfied.

Yay, there will no longer be a "good" and a "bad" way to win at Dominion!
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: GendoIkari on April 16, 2015, 03:28:25 pm
Prediction: Swamp Hag will be stronger than it should be, because often people will choose not to buy anything to avoid a Curse, even though they should have just bought a card. Similar to how people sometimes discard their hand to Torturer when it would be better to take the curse. Though it will be weaker when buying events is an option.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: AJD on April 16, 2015, 04:10:08 pm
Though it will be weaker when buying events is an option.

(Or things like Horn of Plenty engines, Highway/Ironworks, etc.)
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: scott_pilgrim on April 16, 2015, 04:46:07 pm
Prediction: Swamp Hag will be stronger than it should be, because often people will choose not to buy anything to avoid a Curse, even though they should have just bought a card. Similar to how people sometimes discard their hand to Torturer when it would be better to take the curse. Though it will be weaker when buying events is an option.

I could see it being the exact opposite, though.  People like to buy things, and I imagine a lot of times people will buy things like Silver when it's not worth it for the Curse, just because they don't want their whole turn to go to waste.  I guess that actually leads to the same conclusion, that Swamp Hag is stronger than it should be, just for the opposite reason.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Gherald on April 16, 2015, 04:49:18 pm
Prediction: Swamp Hag will be a card that people will need to get used to and learn how to play optimally.
Title: Re: Previews #3 - Amulet, Swamp Hag, Hireling
Post by: Throwaway_bicycling on April 17, 2015, 08:07:41 pm
The rules tread on a thin line. If they had been slightly different there would have been a paradox, and the universe might have disappeared in a puff of logic!
Godel's Incompleteness Caravan: Action - Duration, $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
At the start of your next turn, this sentence is false.

I think that should have been "Goodman's Incompleteness Caravan". Honestly, doesn't anybody here recognize a projectable predicate when they see one? :)