Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => Dominion: Adventures Previews => Topic started by: LastFootnote on March 31, 2015, 01:59:14 pm
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(https://dominionstrategy.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/adventurespreviewthingy.png?w=640&h=326)
trans•mog•ri•fy: verb
– transform, especially in a surprising or magical manner.
Today I’m here to tell you about my favorite Dominion card: Transmogrify. It has a strange name, but packs a lot of versatility. Transmogrify is all about giving you what you need right now. Does your starting hand have three terminal Actions? Poof! Now one of them is a Village. Have your Magpies been multiplying out of control? Abracadabra! One of them just became a Lost City. Have all the Curses run out? Shazam! That Witch in your hand just turned to Gold. The possibilities are endless!
It’s a terrific card for combos. Instead of buying Tournaments, you can simply keep your Transmogrify on your Tavern mat until your Province shows up and then gain that Tournament right into your hand. It’s especially powerful with cards that have on-trash abilities. You can transmogrify a Cultist into another Cultist just to draw 3 cards. And when you Transmogrify a Fortress, you keep the Fortress in your hand and gain a Wharf into your hand on top of that. Instant engine!
I hope you’re enjoying these little bonus previews. Come back tomorrow, when somebody else will be talking about some other card!
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Finally! This was the one card from the meetup I didn't fully memorize.
Also, no idea how the Germans are going to translate this one - the closest thing is "Verwandlung", but that's already in use for Transmute. :/
Cool card, though!
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Guys. Guys.
This card is SO FUN.
It's pretty much the only card I remember from the meetup in detail, because I just kept buying them, and using them, and having fun, and losing (to Big Money). Didn't care.
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Wow, you highlighted some really interesting uses. I want this.
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High fun, high skill. Transmogrify is a really special card. Celestial Chameleon, get to work.
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Wow. That looks like a LOT OF FUN
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Wow, you highlighted some really interesting uses. I want this.
For some reason, playing with Transmogrify makes me feel like a mad scientist. I have cackled out loud on several occasions after making what I perceived as a brilliant play with this card.
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One thing LF didn't elaborate on: Transmogrify doesn't care what kind of card you trash or change things to. That means you can gain Victory cards as well.
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One thing LF didn't elaborate on: Transmogrify doesn't care what kind of card you trash or change things to. That means you can gain Victory cards as well.
Sure, but what fun is that? Gaining Actions into your hand is where it's at.
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One thing LF didn't elaborate on: Transmogrify doesn't care what kind of card you trash or change things to. That means you can gain Victory cards as well.
Sure, but what fun is that? Gaining Actions into your hand is where it's at.
That's why you use it for Nobles!
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One thing LF didn't elaborate on: Transmogrify doesn't care what kind of card you trash or change things to. That means you can gain Victory cards as well.
Sure, but what fun is that? Gaining Actions into your hand is where it's at.
Well, every now and then winning a game is fun. But I agree that making silly combos is generally better.
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This was another one of my favorites. I had a lot of fun just buying lots of them, and then Transmogrifying my Transmogrifies to get exactly what I needed on that turn.
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One thing LF didn't elaborate on: Transmogrify doesn't care what kind of card you trash or change things to. That means you can gain Victory cards as well.
Sure, but what fun is that? Gaining Actions into your hand is where it's at.
I'll be happy to change the boring Expand into a Province if my Tournament is already waiting in hand.
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Well, every now and then winning a game is fun. But I agree that making silly combos is generally better.
:P
But in all seriousness, although you obviously will sometimes be gaining Victory cards with Transmogrify, that's not where it shines. Unless that Victory card is a Province to activate your Tournament or Explorer, you're not really utilizing Transmogrify's full potential.
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Gotta love this card. An instant favourite. This expansion is gonna be awesome.
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Hmm... there's starting to get to be a lot of crazy stuff that can happen at the start of the turn. You can draw quite a bit with Durations already to further fuel Transmogrify, and of course Prince could be doing just about anything. And then the other Reserve cards.
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Well, every now and then winning a game is fun. But I agree that making silly combos is generally better.
:P
But in all seriousness, although you obviously will sometimes be gaining Victory cards with Transmogrify, that's not where it shines. Unless that Victory card is a Province to activate your Tournament or Explorer, you're not really utilizing Transmogrify's full potential.
The cost range also makes it a lot more difficult to Remodel into Provinces, making it even more suited to engine building.
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I'm going to be the boring person and point out that Transmorgify opening lets you turn an Estate into a Silver, which is +$2 on that turn while doing that Upgrade, and that's super nice.
Although, you need to draw it T3 to use it on T4, so who knows how that's going to go.
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Does this fulfill the "Remodel into hand" dream?
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I just thought of a use case that I never tried at the meetup... if you have multiple of these in your Tavern, then you can get more than +$1 cost for the thing you trash... With 2 of them, you can turn that Silver into a Witch (as long as $4s exist). Due to rareness of $7s, it will still be hard to gain Provinces this way.
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I'm disappointed the art isn't an upside down cardboard box.
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I'm going to be the boring person and point out that Transmorgify opening lets you turn an Estate into a Silver, which is +$2 on that turn while doing that Upgrade, and that's super nice.
Although, you need to draw it T3 to use it on T4, so who knows how that's going to go.
But wait, there's more! You can look at your hand and, depending on whether you already have a terminal Action in it, decide whether to upgrade into a Silver or e.g. a Swindler. Sure that might not be what your deck needs long-term, but you can turn that Swindler (or another terminal Action) into something else later! Min/max your turns!
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I just thought of a use case that I never tried at the meetup... if you have multiple of these in your Tavern, then you can get more than +$1 cost for the thing you trash... With 2 of them, you can turn that Silver into a Witch (as long as $4s exist). Due to rareness of $7s, it will still be hard to gain Provinces this way.
The one problem (and why it can cost $4 when Mine costs $5, aside from Mine's cost change) is that it's slow, like most Reserves, honestly. You have to play it, call it, then wait for the next shuffle to play it again. The mitigating factor is that you don't have to worry about it colliding in hand, since you can just wait for a good target.
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I'm disappointed the art isn't an upside down cardboard box.
That was Donald's prototype art.
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I question myself if the Reserve cards lean towards "Fantasy" thematically or is it coincidence?
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Or you could turn a rock into a .... rainbow parrot?
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I question myself if the Reserve cards lean towards "Fantasy" thematically or is it coincidence?
You may find many mystical and wonderful things on your Adventure.
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My first impression was this is some sort of wonky delayed Upgrade. Since one of the main uses of Upgrade is to trash Coppers, I couldn't quite see the point. The examples suggest that the flexibility of choosing a useful card to go straight to hand is valuable, although you're still wasting a card in an earlier turn to pay for it.
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Eric J. Carter did the mat. It shows some of the characters from the Reserve cards in a tavern. Beyond that you will have to wait until the set is out to see it.
I really hope this is one of the guys just casually chilling in the Tavern.
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That's a fantastic card. Wow.. It's a slow card sure, but it's power is in the versatility it brings to the table.
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Or you could turn a rock into a .... rainbow parrot?
Or maybe he's turning a rainbow parrot into a roc.
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That's a fantastic card. Wow.. It's a slow card sure, but it's power is in the versatility awesomeness it brings to the table.
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Instead of buying Tournaments, you can simply keep your Transmogrify on your Tavern mat until your Province shows up and then gain that Tournament right into your hand.
This has great potential for any cards that require certain collisions, e.g., Treasure Map. Just buy one, then wait "for the right moment".
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This card: not the strongest because it's pretty slow, and it's so hard to play correctly, but who cares? Losing with this card is more fun than winning without it!
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Wow, I lllove that Reserved cards concept, and especially this one.
It makes the possibility of randomly losing the game because of bad draws way smaller.
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Is there an extra comma in there?
Should "At the start of your turn, you may call this, to trash..." be, "At the start of your turn, you may call this to trash..."?
Because if so, this entire expansion is ruined for me.
slowpoke.jpg
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Instead of buying Tournaments, you can simply keep your Transmogrify on your Tavern mat until your Province shows up and then gain that Tournament right into your hand.
This has great potential for any cards that require certain collisions, e.g., Treasure Map. Just buy one, then wait "for the right moment".
TREASURE MAP OP!?
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If I Transmogrify Squire to Watchtower, can I reveal it to topdeck the gained Attack?
If I Transmogrify Estate to Market Square, can I reveal it for the trashed Estate?
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My first impression was this is some sort of wonky delayed Upgrade. Since one of the main uses of Upgrade is to trash Coppers, I couldn't quite see the point. The examples suggest that the flexibility of choosing a useful card to go straight to hand is valuable, although you're still wasting a card in an earlier turn to pay for it.
It's up to $1 more, so you can't actually remove Copper with it in the same way as you would with Upgrade.
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If I Transmogrify Squire to Watchtower, can I reveal it to topdeck the gained Attack?
If I Transmogrify Estate to Market Square, can I reveal it for the trashed Estate?
Trash from Transmogrify happens before Gaining, so you have to resolve Trashing first. Then Gain. In the first case, you'd Gain the Attack before you Gain the Watchtower.
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If I Transmogrify Squire to Watchtower, can I reveal it to topdeck the gained Attack?
If I Transmogrify Estate to Market Square, can I reveal it for the trashed Estate?
No. You're trashing first, and then you're gaining. The gaining happens after the trashing. Both of those effects happen *when* trash.
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It’s especially powerful with cards that have on-trash abilities. You can transmogrify a Cultist into another Cultist just to draw 3 cards. And when you Transmogrify a Fortress, you keep the Fortress in your hand and gain a Wharf into your hand on top of that. Instant engine!
HOLY ****. I just read this. Mind = Blown
This might be my favorite card, replacing Counterfeit..
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Butcher is not the worst copper trasher anymore! ;D
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I won't be satisfied until I transmog a Familiar into a Golem after the curses run out
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Butcher is not the worst copper trasher anymore! ;D
Butcher + Watchtower = OP
I saw this once and I lost because I didn't try it. D: Stef even said that was the way to go :'(
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I won't be satisfied until I transmog a Familiar into a Golem after the curses run out
Wow, that's legit..
Also, there's playing two Highways, transmorgifying a Forge into a Province, and then playing Duplicate to gain another Province. We could see Duplicator rushes if Bridge/Highway/Princess is on the board. :O
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(http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12871.0;attach=2084)
trans•mog•ri•fy: verb
– transform, especially in a surprising or magical manner.
Also:
noun; An "Influence" card played during a players turn in PKCards.
PKCards: A CCG/TCG combining the scoring mechanics of War and Euchre with mythical theming and pvp made popular by MtG
Disclaimer: I thought this game was immensely fun, and have never liked MtG.
Downfall: Tried to compete with MtG, YuGiOh, Pokemon by method of displacement. Owner did not believe in marketing.
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Below the line text: Now I will read through the replies preceding mine.
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Awesome card. Glad to see the interactions with watchtower are already being explored.
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Woo-hoo, i always hoped for a Fantasy themed expansion. I kind of guessed it when the title was revealed, Lost City and Magpie made it pretty plausible, and now i think it's confirmed. Finally! I like how this reminds me of Transmute, just that this is absolutely great. I like the guy on the card, he seems to have a lot of fund being a crazy wizard.
Well, who wouldn't?
About the german Translation: Formwandlung/Umwandlung/Gestaltwandlung seem appropriate.
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It makes the possibility of randomly losing the game because of bad draws way smaller.
So I would say this is true of most reserve cards (Guide <3 <3 <3) but it's much less true of Transmogrify; since it's a trasher that's likely to miss shuffles.
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Awesome card. Glad to see the interactions with watchtower are already being explored.
Tranmogrify, Trash card A, Gain Card B, Reveal Watchtower to place Card B on top of your deck, lose track of Card B with Transmogrify. Now B is safely on top of your deck to draw with your Minion.
Synergy.
(Obviously, Card B is terminal, and you only had a single Minion with no other Actions save Watchtower. And your opponent had 5 cards in hand, and you needed to make sure you made him discard them.)
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How does it combine with Scout?
If someone Swindles or Ambassadors you a Scout, you can Transmogrify it into something actually useful.
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Awesome card. Glad to see the interactions with watchtower are already being explored.
Tranmogrify, Trash card A, Gain Card B, Reveal Watchtower to place Card B on top of your deck, lose track of Card B with Transmogrify. Now B is safely on top of your deck to draw with your Minion.
Synergy.
Well obviously. I was thinking about more subtle things, like it decreasing handsize.
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How does it combine with Scout?
If someone Swindles or Ambassadors you a Scout, you can Transmogrify it into something actually useful.
Oh come on, think outside the box.
Transmogrify a $5 into Nobles. Reveal Watchtower to put Nobles on top of your deck. Play Scout to draw Nobles. Combos with both Watchtower and Scout!!!
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Now I can't wait to see the card that helps P2...
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So..
Am I only one who is excited we have a Calvin&Hobbes card?
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So, I always thought Bill Watterson had made up this word until I looked it up just now...
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Now I can't wait to see the card that helps P2...
That was Lost City.
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Now I can't wait to see the card that helps P2...
That was Lost City.
I doubt that. How often are you going to open with Lost City? Often enough it'll be a Moat during your second shuffle.
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It makes the possibility of randomly losing the game because of bad draws way smaller.
So I would say this is true of most reserve cards (Guide <3 <3 <3) but it's much less true of Transmogrify; since it's a trasher that's likely to miss shuffles.
I'm guessing the "put into hand" part will make missing shuffles not hurt so bad.
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What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?
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What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?
It goes on top of your deck. Nomad Camp triggers on-gain.
Edit: I believe I was wrong, but I wanted to state it with confidence so I phrased it in the "I know what I'm talking about" tone. Which I always suggest, especially when you don't know what you're talking about.
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What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?
It goes on top of your deck. Nomad Camp triggers on-gain.
Nomad Camp doesn't "trigger on-gain" in the sense of other things that trigger on-gain; you don't gain Nomad Camp and then put it on top of your deck. It just moves directly to your deck-top when you gain it.
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What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?
It goes on top of your deck. Nomad Camp triggers on-gain.
Nomad Camp doesn't "trigger on-gain" in the sense of other things that trigger on-gain; you don't gain Nomad Camp and then put it on top of your deck. It just moves directly to your deck-top when you gain it.
Which would mean, since the put-in-hand happens after gaining, Transmogrify should lose track of Nomad Camp when you gain it. It goes on top of your deck.
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What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?
It goes on top of your deck. Nomad Camp triggers on-gain.
Nomad Camp doesn't "trigger on-gain" in the sense of other things that trigger on-gain; you don't gain Nomad Camp and then put it on top of your deck. It just moves directly to your deck-top when you gain it.
Oh actually, I just noticed Transmogrify has different wording than other cards: Explorer says "Gain a Silver card, putting it into your hand", and Transmogrify says "gain a card… and put that card into your hand", as two steps. So now I think Nomad Camp ends up in your hand with Transmogrify.
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What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?
It goes on top of your deck. Nomad Camp triggers on-gain.
Nomad Camp doesn't "trigger on-gain" in the sense of other things that trigger on-gain; you don't gain Nomad Camp and then put it on top of your deck. It just moves directly to your deck-top when you gain it.
I'm not sure I understand the difference. I think that if you had a "When you gain a card, you may..." reaction with Nomad Camp, you could choose the order right?
As I'm reading it, Transmogrify does three things separately: Trash a card (resolve all reactions). Gain a card (resolve all reactions). Put gained card in hand. I would think Nomad Camp's effect falls into the "resolve all reactions" part of "Gain a card".
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What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?
It goes on top of your deck. Nomad Camp triggers on-gain.
Nomad Camp doesn't "trigger on-gain" in the sense of other things that trigger on-gain; you don't gain Nomad Camp and then put it on top of your deck. It just moves directly to your deck-top when you gain it.
I'm not sure I understand the difference. I think that if you had a "When you gain a card, you may..." reaction with Nomad Camp, you could choose the order right?
No. "When you gain a card, you may…" effects happen after the card is gained. Nomad Camp lands on the deck as it is gained; when when-gain effects trigger, Nomad Camp is already on top of your deck.
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What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?
It goes on top of your deck. Nomad Camp triggers on-gain.
Nomad Camp doesn't "trigger on-gain" in the sense of other things that trigger on-gain; you don't gain Nomad Camp and then put it on top of your deck. It just moves directly to your deck-top when you gain it.
Which would mean, since the put-in-hand happens after gaining, Transmogrify should lose track of Nomad Camp when you gain it. It goes on top of your deck.
I disagree. Transmogrify doesn't lose track of Nomad Camp because nothing moves it between when it is gained and when Transmogrify tries to move it. Compare: you can play Explorer and use Watchtower to trash the incoming Silver; the fact that Explorer sends the Silver to a non-standard gain location doesn't make Watchtower lose track of it.
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Now I can't wait to see the card that helps P2...
That was Lost City.
I doubt that. How often are you going to open with Lost City? Often enough it'll be a Moat during your second shuffle.
It doesn't have to be purchased in the opening to help P2. P1 getting Lost City boosts a P2 turn that is earlier than the turn P1 would have boosted if P2 got it on the next turn. This assumes that having an extra card is on average better earlier in the game than later
But really, this advantage may be so minor in practice that it won't really be considered a P2 advantage unless P1 opens with Lost City .
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No. "When you gain a card, you may…" effects happen after the card is gained. Nomad Camp lands on the deck as it is gained; when when-gain effects trigger, Nomad Camp is already on top of your deck.
Huh. Has this issue come up before?
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No. "When you gain a card, you may…" effects happen after the card is gained. Nomad Camp lands on the deck as it is gained; when when-gain effects trigger, Nomad Camp is already on top of your deck.
Huh. Has this issue come up before?
Yes. I don't remember when and why, but i can confirm that Donald clearly stated Nomad Camp is not moved from your discard pile to the top of your deck, but instead gained directly to your deck. I think it was some discussion about Watchtower, topdecking, lose track, etc.
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What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?
It goes on top of your deck. Nomad Camp triggers on-gain.
Nomad Camp doesn't "trigger on-gain" in the sense of other things that trigger on-gain; you don't gain Nomad Camp and then put it on top of your deck. It just moves directly to your deck-top when you gain it.
Which would mean, since the put-in-hand happens after gaining, Transmogrify should lose track of Nomad Camp when you gain it. It goes on top of your deck.
I disagree. Transmogrify doesn't lose track of Nomad Camp because nothing moves it between when it is gained and when Transmogrify tries to move it. Compare: you can play Explorer and use Watchtower to trash the incoming Silver; the fact that Explorer sends the Silver to a non-standard gain location doesn't make Watchtower lose track of it.
Okay, I think I agree with you now. I was imaging Nomad Camp goes Gain -> Discard Pile -> Move to Deck, but it just goes Gain to Deck immediately. So then Transmogrify would "expect" it to be on top of your deck, and it is, so hooray, put it in your hand?
PPE: I found a BGG thread that had the question.
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I transmogrify my Woodcutter to gain a Nomad Camp, putting it into my hand.
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Woo-hoo, i always hoped for a Fantasy themed expansion.
Alchemy is a fantasy-themed expansion.
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You can reveal Watchtower to trash a gained Nomad Camp. This is because after Nomad Camp was gained, it's exactly where Watchtower expects it to be, which is on top of your deck. Watchtower isn't automatically looking in the discard pile for gained cards, it's looking for wherever those cards were gained to.
With Transmogrify, it should work exactly the same. Transmogrify moves the card from where it expects it to be (on top of your deck) to your hand.
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Woo-hoo, i always hoped for a Fantasy themed expansion.
Alchemy is a fantasy-themed expansion.
Well, sure. I guess i mean "Epic Fantasy". Like in the one Dominion-knockoff-which-shall-not-be-named. It was one of the few things i appreaciated there. Alchemy is mostly medieval pseudo-science-geeks with beards, glasses and explosion holes in their clothing.
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Awesome card. Glad to see the interactions with watchtower are already being explored.
Most notably being able to gain a Watchtower into your hand whenever you have a card that costs $2 or more in your hand and Transmogrify in the tavern. You can *call* that creative synergy, if you like. :-)
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Okay, well, if I reveal a Watchtower to topdeck the gained card, THEN Transmogrify will lose track of it.
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Well, sure. I guess i mean "Epic Fantasy". Like in the one Dominion-knockoff-which-shall-not-be-named.
Well, that narrows it down to two or three possibilities.
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This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.
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This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.
It's not just non-terminal; it also only decreases hand size by 1 rather than 2, like Upgrade. It's slower and can't trash Coppers, but it's also cheaper and can do all sorts of shenanigans by getting you what you want when you need it.
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This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.
Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though. Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
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This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.
Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though. Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.
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Well I suppose we'll see how it pans out once Adventures is available online. I can pretty much guarantee you it's not weak with Rats, Cultist, etc. And if you ignore it on a Fortress board and your opponent doesn't, you will lose. Its exact strength in the general case is still up in the air.
EDIT: Although I am curious how e.g. Stef and Mic feel about the card vis a vis its strength.
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This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.
Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though. Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.
What? Royal Seal topdecks; it doesn't gain in hand. It doesn't let you pick out what card you get to pick up the instant you need it.
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This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.
Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though. Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.
As somebody who never playtested this, i predict it's much better than you think. Remodel is not only terminal, it reduces your handsize by two when you actually use it and needs to collide. This DOES reduce your handsize, but only by one, and instead improves another card in your hand. I think we learned from Tactician that one great turn is better than two mediocre ones.
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This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.
Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though. Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.
As somebody who never playtested this, i predict it's much better than you think. Remodel is not only terminal, it reduces your handsize by two when you actually use it and needs to collide. This DOES reduce your handsize, but only by one, and instead improves another card in your hand. I think we learned from Tactician that one great turn is better than two mediocre ones.
It only reduces your handsize when you play it. You do the upgrading later, where it doesn't change your handsize.
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I mean, barring weird starting turn stuff, the playing and upgrading are going to be done with different hands.
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This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.
Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though. Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.
As somebody who never playtested this, i predict it's much better than you think. Remodel is not only terminal, it reduces your handsize by two when you actually use it and needs to collide. This DOES reduce your handsize, but only by one, and instead improves another card in your hand. I think we learned from Tactician that one great turn is better than two mediocre ones.
This doesn't reduce your handsize at all. Well, sort of. It reduces it the turn that it gets played. But the turn that it gets called, which is the turn that this thing is bought for, it keeps your handsize at 5.
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EDIT: Although I am curious how e.g. Stef and Mic feel about the card vis a vis its strength.
When first playing with Transmogrify I just assumed it would be too slow. I don't really think that now. But I don't know how I'd describe it's strength. I guess something around middling to good. I mean really, there's a whole bunch of Dominion cards that look bad if you assign them in an ordered ranking, but aren't bad if you were to just rate all the cards on a scale of 20 or something.
It's not a powerhouse but it still has pretty good utility all around, it's never a complete dud. Even Estate into Silver in hand is okay sometimes. I think it's easy to underestimate how helpful the "change a card in hand" optionality is. Also the "wait until the card I want to improve is in hand" aspect (keeping shuffles in mind). It also allows a timely Province -> Province which is not a small thing if you get a points lead and need to end the game. Unlike other such cards, you don't need to line up the Province with the card in hand.
It has at least one really strong interaction (Fortress) and some other nice ones too. I have done Feodum things with it a few times.
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This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.
Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though. Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.
As somebody who never playtested this, i predict it's much better than you think. Remodel is not only terminal, it reduces your handsize by two when you actually use it and needs to collide. This DOES reduce your handsize, but only by one, and instead improves another card in your hand. I think we learned from Tactician that one great turn is better than two mediocre ones.
As somebody who did playtest this, you are correct.
Comparisons to Band of Misfits should be made, I think. Band of Misfits becomes whatever card you need at the moment, up to $4. This turns another card in your hand into whatever you need at the moment. And instead of up to $4, it's up to X+1, where X is the cost of the card you're using as your "BoM". And then this also trashes, which is sometimes good, sometimes bad, since you'll be trashing non-junk with it.
The only real drawback is the turn it gets played. Then it's a blocked Tournament.
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The only real drawback is the turn it gets played. Then it's a blocked Tournament.
AKA a Ruined Village?
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The only real drawback is the turn it gets played. Then it's a blocked Tournament.
AKA a Ruined Village?
;D I suppose that would have been simpler.
You know, the vanilla portion of Goons is basically just a Festival without the +Actions.
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The only real drawback is the turn it gets played. Then it's a blocked Tournament.
AKA a Ruined Village?
;D I suppose that would have been simpler.
You know, the vanilla portion of Goons is basically just a Festival without the +Actions.
It's also a Ruined Village without the +Action and with the +1 Buy, +$2.
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The only real drawback is the turn it gets played. Then it's a blocked Tournament.
AKA a Ruined Village?
;D I suppose that would have been simpler.
You know, the vanilla portion of Goons is basically just a Festival without the +Actions.
It's also a Ruined Village without the +Action and with the +1 Buy, +$2.
Man, Ruined Village really is overpowered... it's practically a non-terminal Goons!
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This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.
Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though. Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.
As somebody who never playtested this, i predict it's much better than you think. Remodel is not only terminal, it reduces your handsize by two when you actually use it and needs to collide. This DOES reduce your handsize, but only by one, and instead improves another card in your hand. I think we learned from Tactician that one great turn is better than two mediocre ones.
As somebody who did playtest this, you are correct.
Comparisons to Band of Misfits should be made, I think. Band of Misfits becomes whatever card you need at the moment, up to $4. This turns another card in your hand into whatever you need at the moment. And instead of up to $4, it's up to X+1, where X is the cost of the card you're using as your "BoM". And then this also trashes, which is sometimes good, sometimes bad, since you'll be trashing non-junk with it.
The only real drawback is the turn it gets played. Then it's a blocked Tournament.
Ok... I think BoM is quite a weak card. And the drawback of having to play it still seems like a real drawback to me.
When I say I think it's weak, I don't mean "It's weak - I think I'd usually rather not have it than have it", I mean "It's weak - I think there'll usually be something else on the board I'd want more". I'm sure it will see plenty of play.
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I'm disappointed the art isn't an upside down cardboard box.
That was Donald's prototype art.
So if you rotate Transmogrify 90 degrees then it becomes Duplicate?
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I'm disappointed the art isn't an upside down cardboard box.
That was Donald's prototype art.
So if you rotate Transmogrify 90 degrees then it becomes Duplicate?
Now I see where he got his names for things. Bill Watterson will not be happy, Donald X.
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Okay, well, if I reveal a Watchtower to topdeck the gained card, THEN Transmogrify will lose track of it.
What if the gained card is Nomad Camp?
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Okay, well, if I reveal a Watchtower to topdeck the gained card, THEN Transmogrify will lose track of it.
What if the gained card is Nomad Camp?
See previous page (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12871.50), there are 13 posts that mention Nomad Camp.
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Okay, well, if I reveal a Watchtower to topdeck the gained card, THEN Transmogrify will lose track of it.
What if the gained card is Nomad Camp?
See previous page (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12871.50), there are 13 posts that mention Nomad Camp.
But none about what happens if you use a Watchtower to topdeck Nomad Camp!
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I'm disappointed the art isn't an upside down cardboard box.
That was Donald's prototype art.
So if you rotate Transmogrify 90 degrees then it becomes Duplicate?
Now I see where he got his names for things. Bill Watterson will not be happy, Donald X.
Time Machine would be a great name for a Reserve card.
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All these reserve cards are making end games even more complicated.
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I mean, barring weird starting turn stuff, the playing and upgrading are going to be done with different hands.
That got me thinking, if i Prince a Reserve, and call it the turn i play it, can i play (and call) it again next turn? I would guess that yes, i can.
Edit: But maybe Prince would lose track, as the Reserve wasn't where it thought it would be, inbetween.
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I mean, barring weird starting turn stuff, the playing and upgrading are going to be done with different hands.
That got me thinking, if i Prince a Reserve, and call it the turn i play it, can i play (and call) it again next turn? I would guess that yes, i can.
Edit: But maybe Prince would lose track, as the Reserve wasn't where it thought it would be, inbetween.
I had this same question. You cannot. Prince loses track of it.
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What about Verklärung for a German translation? I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.
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(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/candh/images/5/5a/Transmogrifier_zap.png/revision/latest?cb=20070709025201)
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(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/candh/images/5/5a/Transmogrifier_zap.png/revision/latest?cb=20070709025201)
Confirmed: Dominion now has zaps.
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(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/candh/images/5/5a/Transmogrifier_zap.png/revision/latest?cb=20070709025201)
Confirmed: Dominion now has zaps.
Well, you obviously need zaps for Adventures.
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What about Verklärung for a German translation? I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.
At this very moment?! Cool. Are you a brass player? [who notoriously have books open on their stands during long rests in performances] Hope the conductor can't see your iPad.
Verklärung is strictly Transfiguration of course, which is in a way almost opposite of transmogrification (which my spell-correct knows, hey!). Still I kind of like it. Only thing is, if they use that and there every is a Transfiguration card, then they'd be screwed.
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Regarding where a Transmogrified Nomad Camp goes [not a phrase I ever foresaw myself writing], I can see the fun of parsing the grammar and arguing it one way or the other, but ultimately -
Transmogrification: 'gain a card... and put that card into your hand'
Nomad Camp: 'When you gain this, put it on top of you deck'
- both clearly on-gain effects, seem to me as close to conflicting instructions as you're going to get. And thus would need to be resolved by rule (as I assume they doubtless are).
Yes, I understand the concept that if one card acts first, it can obviate the ability to obey the other (assuming lose track applies; if not then oddly the latter acting card would win the day.) I guess I'm saying any attempt to determine sequence from those phrases seems to me ultimately more speculative than dispositive.
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I won't be satisfied until I transmog a Familiar into a Golem after the curses run out
Is this actually legal? AFAIK you cant usually use the remodel type cards with potion costing cards?
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I won't be satisfied until I transmog a Familiar into a Golem after the curses run out
Is this actually legal? AFAIK you cant usually use the remodel type cards with potion costing cards?
Of course you can. You just can't use Remodel to turn a non-potion costing card into a potion costing one. Ever. You can however trash a Scrying Pool into a Golem with Remodel, or into any $4 potion or non-potion costing card for that matter.
You can even trash a Scrying Pool with Stonemason to get two $2 cards. But you can't gain potion costing card by trashing a non-potion costing card with Stonemason.
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I won't be satisfied until I transmog a Familiar into a Golem after the curses run out
Is this actually legal? AFAIK you cant usually use the remodel type cards with potion costing cards?
Yes. You can't Remodel from a non-Potion card to a Potion card, but you can certainly go from Potion card to Potion card. Golem costs exactly $1 more than Familiar.
What about Verklärung for a German translation? I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.
At this very moment?! Cool. Are you a brass player? [who notoriously have books open on their stands during long rests in performances] Hope the conductor can't see your iPad.
Verklärung is strictly Transfiguration of course, which is in a way almost opposite of transmogrification (which my spell-correct knows, hey!). Still I kind of like it. Only thing is, if they use that and there every is a Transfiguration card, then they'd be screwed.
I play bassoon.
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I think I finally get the Nomad Camp interaction.
Lose Track happens when two things happen at the same time, and one moves a card from where the other expects it to be. E.g. Hermit/Scheme. Hermit can't trash itself because it's not in play - Scheme put it on your deck.
The No Visiting rule says that cards gained to somewhere other than the discard pile just go straight where they're going. This isn't something else happening when gaining, this is just a different gain destination.
However, if other cards want to move it, they can conflict. If I gain a Silver, and reveal Watchtower to trash it, then react Royal Seal to topdeck it, Royal Seal can't find the card.
So let's imagine a ShitWatchtower that can be revealed to put a card in your discard pile.
I Transmogrify Woodcutter into a Nomad Camp. I gain a Nomad Camp.
* NC wants to go to the top of my deck.
* If I don't reveal ShitWT, Transmogrify has kept track of NC, and puts it in my hand.
* If I do reveal ShitWT, NC goes into my discard pile. Transmogrify was expecting it on the top of my deck, but can't find it now doesn't care where it's going and keeps track of it. NC doesn't go into my hand.
EDIT: Further parsing of No Visiting has led me to conclude that a Watchtower'd (to your deck, not trashed) or Royal Seal'd card should follow the same policy - it should not visit the discard pile, and should not be lost track of.
"When you gain" happens before the card hits the location it's going.
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Okay, this is starting to hurt my head. Following this, then it means that Transmogrify's to-hand gain also does not happen *after* gaining. Let's look at Border Village:
*If Transmogrify's put-in-hand happens after gaining, you turn a $5 into Border Village. BV goes into your discard pile. At the same time, you gain something cheaper, which also goes into your discard pile. That something goes on top of BV. Now, when Transmogrify looks for BV to put it in your hand, it has *definitely* lost track of it - there's something covering it up.
*If Transmogrify's put-in-hand is the same as Nomad Camp's put-on-deck, then the BV would be rerouted to your hand, while the cheaper something would go to your discard pile.
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Transmogrification: 'gain a card... and put that card into your hand'
Nomad Camp: 'When you gain this, put it on top of you deck'
- both clearly on-gain effects, seem to me as close to conflicting instructions as you're going to get.
No, neither of these is an on-gain effect. An on-gain effect takes place immediately after you gain a card.
Nomad Camp, sadly, is phrased as an on-gain effect (it has the same phrasing as, say, Inn and Border Village, "when you gain this"), but Donald X. has ruled that it's not. If Nomad Camp's self-topdecking were an on-gain effect, what would happen would be: (1) gain Nomad Camp (to your discard pile), and then immediately (2) put Nomad Camp on your deck. But that's not what happens; Nomad Camp goes directly to your deck. So instead of having an on-gain effect, it just has a nonstandard gain destination. This puts Nomad Camp in the small class of cards whose text isn't a correct description of what they actually do in terms of a strict interpretation of the game rules.
Transmogrification is phrased as two instructions, one after another: (1) gain a card, and then (2) put that card in your hand. (2) isn't an on-gain effect; it's just a thing that happens. Any on-gain effects of the card gained in (1) must therefore take place before (2). Compare Rats, which tells you to (1') gain another Rats and (2') trash something. (2') isn't an "on-gain effect" of (1').
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So let's imagine a ShitWatchtower that can be revealed to put a card in your discard pile.
I Transmogrify Woodcutter into a Nomad Camp. I gain a Nomad Camp.
* NC wants to go to the top of my deck.
* If I don't reveal ShitWT, Transmogrify has kept track of NC, and puts it in my hand.
* If I do reveal ShitWT, NC goes into my discard pile. Transmogrify was expecting it on the top of my deck, but can't find it now doesn't care where it's going and keeps track of it. NC doesn't go into my hand.
No, you were right the first time. Transmogrify is expecting it to be where it was gained to (your deck), and then something else moved it (ShitWT), so lose-track takes effect and Transmogrify can't find it.
EDIT: Further parsing of No Visiting has led me to conclude that a Watchtower'd (to your deck, not trashed) or Royal Seal'd card should follow the same policy - it should not visit the discard pile, and should not be lost track of.
This is wrong. Watchtower and Royal Seal are when-gain effects; then only activate after the gained card has hit the discard pile (or wherever it would be going).
"When you gain" happens before the card hits the location it's going.
No, a thousand times no. Compare Inn, which must be in the discard pile before its when-gain effect activates.
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Okay, this is starting to hurt my head. Following this, then it means that Transmogrify's to-hand gain also does not happen *after* gaining. Let's look at Border Village:
*If Transmogrify's put-in-hand happens after gaining, you turn a $5 into Border Village. BV goes into your discard pile. At the same time, you gain something cheaper, which also goes into your discard pile. That something goes on top of BV. Now, when Transmogrify looks for BV to put it in your hand, it has *definitely* lost track of it - there's something covering it up.
*If Transmogrify's put-in-hand is the same as Nomad Camp's put-on-deck, then the BV would be rerouted to your hand, while the cheaper something would go to your discard pile.
Hmm, this is a serious conundrum, actually, isn't it. I agree that, the way Transmogrify is phrased, as a sequence (1) gain something and then (2) put the gained thing in your hand, Transmogrify should lose track of Border Village and not put it in hand. So is this the correct interpretation? Or should Transmogrify actually be interpreted in the same way as Explorer's "gain a Silver, putting it in your hand" after all, as a redirected gain with no visiting? I think we might need Donald to clarify this one.
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Hmm, this is a serious conundrum, actually, isn't it. I agree that, the way Transmogrify is phrased, as a sequence (1) gain something and then (2) put the gained thing in your hand, Transmogrify should lose track of Border Village and not put it in hand. So is this the correct interpretation? Or should Transmogrify actually be interpreted in the same way as Explorer's "gain a Silver, putting it in your hand" after all, as a redirected gain with no visiting? I think we might need Donald to clarify this one.
I am not 100% sure, but I am pretty sure the intent is no visiting. The gained card should go right to your hand. Admittedly it could be phrased better on the card.
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Hmm, this is a serious conundrum, actually, isn't it. I agree that, the way Transmogrify is phrased, as a sequence (1) gain something and then (2) put the gained thing in your hand, Transmogrify should lose track of Border Village and not put it in hand. So is this the correct interpretation? Or should Transmogrify actually be interpreted in the same way as Explorer's "gain a Silver, putting it in your hand" after all, as a redirected gain with no visiting? I think we might need Donald to clarify this one.
I am not 100% sure, but I am pretty sure the intent is no visiting. The gained card should go right to your hand. Admittedly it could be phrased better on the card.
Is there any reason we think this might not be correct? The no-visiting rule seems pretty clear on this point, the way I'm reading it. It is confusing, though.
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Does someone have a link to the No Visiting rule, or know which expansion rulebook it's in if it is?
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Does someone have a link to the No Visiting rule, or know which expansion rulebook it's in if it is?
Here (http://bit.ly/1GfbXav)
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Well I suppose we'll see how it pans out once Adventures is available online. I can pretty much guarantee you it's not weak with Rats, Cultist, etc. And if you ignore it on a Fortress board and your opponent doesn't, you will lose. Its exact strength in the general case is still up in the air.
EDIT: Although I am curious how e.g. Stef and Mic feel about the card vis a vis its strength.
So... this card is Hot Air Balloon, then ;)?
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Does someone have a link to the No Visiting rule, or know which expansion rulebook it's in if it is?
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Dark_Ages#.22No_visiting.22_rule
Hmm, this is a serious conundrum, actually, isn't it. I agree that, the way Transmogrify is phrased, as a sequence (1) gain something and then (2) put the gained thing in your hand, Transmogrify should lose track of Border Village and not put it in hand. So is this the correct interpretation? Or should Transmogrify actually be interpreted in the same way as Explorer's "gain a Silver, putting it in your hand" after all, as a redirected gain with no visiting? I think we might need Donald to clarify this one.
I am not 100% sure, but I am pretty sure the intent is no visiting. The gained card should go right to your hand. Admittedly it could be phrased better on the card.
Is there any reason we think this might not be correct? The no-visiting rule seems pretty clear on this point, the way I'm reading it. It is confusing, though.
My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go. So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).
I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.
EDIT: An interesting consequence of this is that if the cheaper card Border Village gains is Nomad Camp, you don't lose track of BV. :)
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What about Verklärung for a German translation? I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.
No. Verklärung is when you tell people that something is better than it looks, or not as bad as it sounds. It doesn't actually change things.
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My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go. So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).
I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.
I'm not quite sure what I'm being asked. "No visiting" is a real thing, Transmogrify's gain does not visit the discard pile, it goes straight to your hand. It is not trying to have a novel phrasing, just to be phrased well.
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My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go. So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).
I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.
I'm not quite sure what I'm being asked. "No visiting" is a real thing, Transmogrify's gain does not visit the discard pile, it goes straight to your hand. It is not trying to have a novel phrasing, just to be phrased well.
Oh.. then.. what's the Nomad Camp/Transmogrify interaction?
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My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go. So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).
I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.
I'm not quite sure what I'm being asked. "No visiting" is a real thing, Transmogrify's gain does not visit the discard pile, it goes straight to your hand. It is not trying to have a novel phrasing, just to be phrased well.
I think what you're being asked is, when you gain-and-topdeck something with Royal Seal or Watchtower does it visit the discard pile? I'm... pretty sure you've answered yes to this question elsewhere.
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My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go. So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).
I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.
I'm not quite sure what I'm being asked. "No visiting" is a real thing, Transmogrify's gain does not visit the discard pile, it goes straight to your hand. It is not trying to have a novel phrasing, just to be phrased well.
This is surprising. Why doesn't it say "putting it in your hand", like Explorer and Torturer do? "And put that card into your hand" makes it sound like a separate instruction, something you do after you have gained the card normally; not a new gain location. And with this ruling, Nomad Camp is indeed a question; I believe this is the first time that 2 different default Gain locations are happening at the same time. So does it go to hand, or on top of your deck, or your choice?
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Oh.. then.. what's the Nomad Camp/Transmogrify interaction?
Both Nomad Camp and Transmogrify change the default destination of the card (unlike Watchtower, which moves an already-gained card). Since they are different destinations, you choose which place you want the card to go. Neither destination automatically has precedence and they happen at the same time.
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My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go. So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).
I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.
I'm not quite sure what I'm being asked. "No visiting" is a real thing, Transmogrify's gain does not visit the discard pile, it goes straight to your hand. It is not trying to have a novel phrasing, just to be phrased well.
I think the question boils down to when there are multiple "on gain"-like effects which change the destination of the card, what happens? The specific example is that if you use Transmogrify to get a Noble Brigand, where does the Noble Brigand end up? In your hand? On your deck? Player's choice? (Answered as "Player's Choice" before I finished posting this)
I believe that "would gain" effects resolve earlier, so you could transmogrify a shelter into an estate, reveal a trader, and put a silver into your hand. (Hmmm, that would imply you could use Transmogrify to trash an overgrown estate, draw a trader as part of the when trashed effect, gain an estate, reveal the trader, and gain a silver instead, into your hand).
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I think what you're being asked is, when you gain-and-topdeck something with Royal Seal or Watchtower does it visit the discard pile? I'm... pretty sure you've answered yes to this question elsewhere.
Royal Seal and Watchtower move an already-gained card (if they can find it, which normally they can, but Border Village and Inn can mess with that).
Nomad Camp is not already-gained because I didn't think anyone would ever play it like that and at the same time did not want a convoluted wording for it.
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What about Verklärung for a German translation? I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.
No. Verklärung is when you tell people that something is better than it looks, or not as bad as it sounds. It doesn't actually change things.
I love your succinct explanation. But words often mean more than one thing, and this is a different meaning of Verklärung. As any bassoonist knows, Tod und Verklärung is Death and Transfiguration, and transfiguration is a certainly change of state, though a spiritual rather than grotesque one.
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This is surprising. Why doesn't it say "putting it in your hand", like Explorer and Torturer do?
Because after phrasing the card there wasn't a moment when I thought "oh hey this should match Explorer or people will be asking me if I meant anything by the difference in wording."
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Okay, so, Transmogrify to gain a Nomad Camp, choosing to put it in your hand with Transmogrify. Reveal a Watchtower to move it to the top of your deck.
Sweet!
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I think the question boils down to when there are multiple "on gain"-like effects which change the destination of the card, what happens? The specific example is that if you use Transmogrify to get a Noble Brigand, where does the Noble Brigand end up? In your hand? On your deck? Player's choice? (Answered as "Player's Choice" before I finished posting this)
I believe that "would gain" effects resolve earlier, so you could transmogrify a shelter into an estate, reveal a trader, and put a silver into your hand. (Hmmm, that would imply you could use Transmogrify to trash an overgrown estate, draw a trader as part of the when trashed effect, gain an estate, reveal the trader, and gain a silver instead, into your hand).
Nomad Camp not Noble Brigand; Noble Brigand would end up in your hand!
Trader replaces both "what is being gained" and "where does it go." If you Transmogrify a Shelter into an Estate and reveal Trader, the Silver goes to your discard pile.
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Okay, so, Transmogrify to gain a Nomad Camp, choosing to put it in your hand with Transmogrify. Reveal a Watchtower to move it to the top of your deck.
Sweet!
LOL.. best combo ever!
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Okay, let me see if I can break this down:
* A card that has a when-gain effect with a different gain destination does not visit. (Nomad Camp)
* A card that gains another card and puts it somewhere else does not make that card visit. (Transmogrify, Explorer, Mine, Armory)
* A card that does something when something else is gained does so after that card is gained, and the gained card does visit, and can be lost track of. (Watchtower, Royal Seal)
Just to check, if I gain a Nomad Camp from a person I'm Possessing (a would gain effect), that NC goes on the top of my deck, right?
Man, lots of italics.
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Okay, let me see if I can break this down:
* A card that has a when-gain effect with a different gain destination does not visit. (Nomad Camp)
This isn't really correct. Nomad Camp is NOT a "when-gain" effect. It's just worded that way, confusingly. Though there's not a really good wording for it, it would be more accurate if it said "Nomad Camp is gained to the top of your deck." It's not something that triggers on-gain.
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I kind of think Nomad Camp should just have a below-line. It's something that's always in effect and not a result of the card doing stuff.
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This card is gained to the top of your deck.
Edit: Or, maybe word it better so it doesn't sound like you're continuously gaining it. "Gaining this card puts it on top of your deck." I dunno, something like that.
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What about Verklärung for a German translation? I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.
No. Verklärung is when you tell people that something is better than it looks, or not as bad as it sounds. It doesn't actually change things.
I love your succinct explanation. But words often mean more than one thing, and this is a different meaning of Verklärung. As any bassoonist knows, Tod und Verklärung is Death and Transfiguration, and transfiguration is a certainly change of state, though a spiritual rather than grotesque one.
I have never heard this word used in any other way, but to be fair I haven't heard it used much at all.
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Okay, let me see if I can break this down:
* A card that has a when-gain effect with a different gain destination does not visit. (Nomad Camp)
* A card that gains another card and puts it somewhere else does not make that card visit. (Transmogrify, Explorer, Mine, Armory)
* A card that does something when something else is gained does so after that card is gained, and the gained card does visit, and can be lost track of. (Watchtower, Royal Seal)
Just to check, if I gain a Nomad Camp from a person I'm Possessing (a would gain effect), that NC goes on the top of my deck, right?
Man, lots of italics.
Nomad Camp on a Possession turn goes to the gaining player's deck top.
The distinction is that Watchtower and Royal Seal make something else happen ahead of moving the card (in both cases, a decision; Watchtower also is revealed). The game has to be in some state when that something else happens, and given the phrasings, the gain has happened already.
Nomad Camp Explorer etc. don't do anything else and again my feeling was that no-one would physically put the card somewhere else first and I didn't want to say "the gain destination for that card is your hand" or some such.
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This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.
Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though. Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.
What? Royal Seal topdecks; it doesn't gain in hand. It doesn't let you pick out what card you get to pick up the instant you need it.
Maybe. But you need a card in hand that you are willing to get rid of for that card which costs at most $1 less than it. And then you are spending the whole effect of this thing just to smooth you out, which seems pretty bad. Really bad, actually. I think you want to actually be turning cards you don't in general want to cards you in general do - the "I need it right now" seems like a nice little bonus, but really not enough to pull the weight of the card.
The Royal Seal comment is because one net benefit of "I get it right now" vs it going away is that you get to play the gained card this shuffle, which can often mean one more time. Royal Seal does the same thing, usually. The comparison isn't perfect, I grant you that.
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What about Verklärung for a German translation? I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.
No. Verklärung is when you tell people that something is better than it looks, or not as bad as it sounds. It doesn't actually change things.
I love your succinct explanation. But words often mean more than one thing, and this is a different meaning of Verklärung. As any bassoonist knows, Tod und Verklärung is Death and Transfiguration, and transfiguration is a certainly change of state, though a spiritual rather than grotesque one.
I have never heard this word used in any other way, but to be fair I haven't heard it used much at all.
What about Verklärung for a German translation? I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.
No. Verklärung is when you tell people that something is better than it looks, or not as bad as it sounds. It doesn't actually change things.
I love your succinct explanation. But words often mean more than one thing, and this is a different meaning of Verklärung. As any bassoonist knows, Tod und Verklärung is Death and Transfiguration, and transfiguration is a certainly change of state, though a spiritual rather than grotesque one.
I have never heard this word used in any other way, but to be fair I haven't heard it used much at all.
Well, the piece is 100 years old, so the usage may well be as well. And it's true people don't tend to walk around saying, "Gee, I'm sure feeling transfigured today!"
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Thinking abou this a bit, I noticed that relying on Transmogrify for engine reliability can really go wrong once piles are emptying.
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This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.
Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though. Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.
What? Royal Seal topdecks; it doesn't gain in hand. It doesn't let you pick out what card you get to pick up the instant you need it.
Maybe. But you need a card in hand that you are willing to get rid of for that card which costs at most $1 less than it. And then you are spending the whole effect of this thing just to smooth you out, which seems pretty bad. Really bad, actually. I think you want to actually be turning cards you don't in general want to cards you in general do - the "I need it right now" seems like a nice little bonus, but really not enough to pull the weight of the card.
The Royal Seal comment is because one net benefit of "I get it right now" vs it going away is that you get to play the gained card this shuffle, which can often mean one more time. Royal Seal does the same thing, usually. The comparison isn't perfect, I grant you that.
At most $1 more than it, not less than it.
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I just realized the guy who shared the Transmogrify preview on BGG is Eric J Carter, the artist for Guide. Apparently he's also a Dominion nut like we all are?
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It's also a chance for him to share his work.
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This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.
Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though. Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.
What? Royal Seal topdecks; it doesn't gain in hand. It doesn't let you pick out what card you get to pick up the instant you need it.
Maybe. But you need a card in hand that you are willing to get rid of for that card which costs at most $1 less than it. And then you are spending the whole effect of this thing just to smooth you out, which seems pretty bad. Really bad, actually. I think you want to actually be turning cards you don't in general want to cards you in general do - the "I need it right now" seems like a nice little bonus, but really not enough to pull the weight of the card.
The Royal Seal comment is because one net benefit of "I get it right now" vs it going away is that you get to play the gained card this shuffle, which can often mean one more time. Royal Seal does the same thing, usually. The comparison isn't perfect, I grant you that.
At most $1 more than it, not less than it.
No, less. The card I am getting rid of can cost less than the card I am getting. My sentence is probably real confusing, but that's what it says.
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This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.
Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though. Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.
What? Royal Seal topdecks; it doesn't gain in hand. It doesn't let you pick out what card you get to pick up the instant you need it.
Maybe. But you need a card in hand that you are willing to get rid of for that card which costs at most $1 less than it. And then you are spending the whole effect of this thing just to smooth you out, which seems pretty bad. Really bad, actually. I think you want to actually be turning cards you don't in general want to cards you in general do - the "I need it right now" seems like a nice little bonus, but really not enough to pull the weight of the card.
The Royal Seal comment is because one net benefit of "I get it right now" vs it going away is that you get to play the gained card this shuffle, which can often mean one more time. Royal Seal does the same thing, usually. The comparison isn't perfect, I grant you that.
At most $1 more than it, not less than it.
No, less. The card I am getting rid of can cost less than the card I am getting. My sentence is probably real confusing, but that's what it says.
Maybe it needs more commas?
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I almost typed that like ten times, then decided to restrain myself from AdamH's benefit. Alas.
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Yep, probably worth $4. Sure, Remodel gives you an extra $ in value if you want it, but it's terminal and you don't get to save it for later. Should be a good one.
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I'm disappointed the art isn't an upside down cardboard box.
That was Donald's prototype art.
So if you rotate Transmogrify 90 degrees then it becomes Duplicate?
So, Time Machine should be confirmed then as well.
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Now that I've actually played this, wow... This would be worth $4 even if the gained card didn't go in your hand. Without that, it's basically an Upgrade that, instead of acting right now, acts any turn except for right now. (Ok, it would also be -1 card in that case overall, but the fact that it's non-terminal is the big deal)
Without the last line, this would be one of those rare $4 cards that actually feels good. With the last line, this is, like, Jack of All Trades kind of good.
(I should probably leave open the possibility that it shines especially brightly in the suggested Dark Ages game with Rats and reserve judgment, but... nah, this is a power card. Wait one turn for an Upgrade-into-hand? And it *can't whiff*? Too good.)
(I should probably be mad, but I'm not. I kind of like TfB cards. I can't help it. I sometimes lose games by buying too many Upgrades, but this card is actually a power card and not a n00b-trap finesse card.)
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Well, all TfB cards love Rats. But Transmogrify can't really do anything with Coppers - he's not a "trasher" in the sense that he clears out junk, he makes sure you have exactly what you need in your hand.
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Well, all TfB cards love Rats. But Transmogrify can't really do anything with Coppers - he's not a "trasher" in the sense that he clears out junk, he makes sure you have exactly what you need in your hand.
I guess I should play it in a game without Rats before I get carried away. This card is probably THE Rats synergy card of all time, so there's that...
But still, it makes Upgrade look really bad. Upgrade reduces this hand by 1, but doesn't let you decide when you draw the card, and doesn't let you turn $5+ cards into Duchies in the final turns. Upgrade can win if Transmogrify would miss a shuffle, but that's about it...
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Well, all TfB cards love Rats. But Transmogrify can't really do anything with Coppers - he's not a "trasher" in the sense that he clears out junk, he makes sure you have exactly what you need in your hand.
I guess I should play it in a game without Rats before I get carried away. This card is probably THE Rats synergy card of all time, so there's that...
But still, it makes Upgrade look really bad. Upgrade reduces this hand by 1, but doesn't let you decide when you draw the card, and doesn't let you turn $5+ cards into Duchies in the final turns. Upgrade can win if Transmogrify would miss a shuffle, but that's about it...
Upgrade can trash Copper, Curses and Ruins without gaining another junk card. Transmogrify can't.
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Well, all TfB cards love Rats. But Transmogrify can't really do anything with Coppers - he's not a "trasher" in the sense that he clears out junk, he makes sure you have exactly what you need in your hand.
I guess I should play it in a game without Rats before I get carried away. This card is probably THE Rats synergy card of all time, so there's that...
But still, it makes Upgrade look really bad. Upgrade reduces this hand by 1, but doesn't let you decide when you draw the card, and doesn't let you turn $5+ cards into Duchies in the final turns. Upgrade can win if Transmogrify would miss a shuffle, but that's about it...
Upgrade can trash Copper, Curses and Ruins without gaining another junk card. Transmogrify can't.
That's true. Junk Dealer is superior, but beggars don't get to choose. I also forgot that in an engine, Upgrade can have a lot more to choose from where Transmogrify will miss out on a lot.
So Upgrade is a better trasher, but Transmogrify is stronger on the benefit side. On a rare board with Transmog, Upgrade, and Junk Dealer, though, it would be really hard to justify Upgrade.
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Well, all TfB cards love Rats. But Transmogrify can't really do anything with Coppers - he's not a "trasher" in the sense that he clears out junk, he makes sure you have exactly what you need in your hand.
But... it won't give me the Hero i need, nor the one i deserve :(
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Well, all TfB cards love Rats. But Transmogrify can't really do anything with Coppers - he's not a "trasher" in the sense that he clears out junk, he makes sure you have exactly what you need in your hand.
But... it won't give me the Hero i need, nor the one i deserve :(
It can give you the Page the need. You must provide your own patience. Then you will get the Champion and/or Hero you deserve.
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You might need to hold out until the end of the night, though.
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You might need to hold out until the end of the night, though.
Well the night is darkest just before the dawn.