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Dominion => Empires Previews => Dominion: Nocturne Previews => Dominion: Renaissance Previews => Dominion General Discussion => Adventures Previews => Topic started by: Donald X. on March 30, 2015, 10:05:19 am

Title: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Donald X. on March 30, 2015, 10:05:19 am
It's a new Dominion expansion! Some of you knew it was inevitable; some of you hoped it would happen; some of you were glad it wasn't going to. It's happening though, I am so sure of it that I am previewing cards from it.

Adventures has a ton of cards, so I am previewing three a day. Each day but today the cards will fit a theme, showing off a different functional aspect of the set - Reserve, Duration, Events, tokens. That leaves today to show off some cards that don't fit those themes.

(https://dominionstrategy.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/adventurespreview1.png?w=640&h=326)

I like to lead with a simple card, to prove that the set has some. Lost City is a vanilla card on top, that makes the other players draw a card when you get one. You really don't want them to have that good turn, but then you may really want some Lost Cities.

Recent studies show that magpies do not especially collect shiny objects. These are folklore magpies though, which still do. Magpie might find you a treasure, or perhaps just reveal another Magpie. Over time a single Magpie can turn into a whole flock of them. There are just ten Magpies in the pile; they're not Rats with wings.

Finally we have Hero. This one is somewhat enigmatic. The top is straightforward, you get +$2 and gain a Treasure, any Treasure in the game. Usually Gold but you never know, could be Platinum or something more exotic. And then when you discard it from play, you can exchange it for a Champion. And wait, this isn't in the Supply. How do you get one? Well I'll tell you. You just need to discard a Warrior from play; then you can exchange the Warrior for a Hero. Warrior isn't in the Supply either though - you get one by exchanging a Treasure Hunter for it. I suppose it's obvious that you get a Treasure Hunter by exchanging a Page for it. But that's it, that's all the turtles there are; you buy a Page, and it turns into a Treasure Hunter, then a Warrior, then a Hero, then a Champion. Page costs $2, so the actual cost of Hero is, $2, plus playing those other cards once each. I somehow fit two of these cycles into Adventures - there's also a Peasant who becomes a Soldier, but then a Fugitive, but then a Disciple, and finally a Teacher. It's two little life stories, played out in cards that gradually get better for you. What exactly the other cards do will remain a mystery until the set is out; there is just too much to preview.

But wait, there's more! dominionstrategy.com [wait that's here] is also going to have a preview each day this week - single card previews, a different previewer each time. The set has 58 uh things; even at 4 a day, it will be below average for what % of it was previewed. No doubt these other previews will be crossposted here, just as these are crossposted there. I am mentioning them here anyway.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Watno on March 30, 2015, 10:08:22 am
YAY. I called the name of a card, even though i got the effect totally wrong^^

These Traveller cards look really intriguing.

Looking forward to what I assume will be theory's preview later today.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Grujah on March 30, 2015, 10:13:20 am
Opening Lost City on 5/2 is interesting. You might give your opponents that were 4/3 a 5/2 now, and whey can give you 5/2+Lost City for example :D
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Burning Skull on March 30, 2015, 10:13:30 am
Magpies look cool with Heralds!

And all that upgradable cards don't look cool with Swindler around
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: pubby on March 30, 2015, 10:14:07 am
Wow the art is looking really good! I hope the rest of the set looks this nice.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Sidsel on March 30, 2015, 10:18:30 am
Opening Lost City on 5/2 is interesting. You might give your opponents that were 4/3 a 5/2 now, and whey can give you 5/2+Lost City for example :D

I'll open lost city/page then - 'cause it's going to take a bit of time to upgrade those travellers... :D
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Orange on March 30, 2015, 10:18:53 am
Is Magpie one of the 12-card piles?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Watno on March 30, 2015, 10:18:59 am
I wonder how many travellers there will be in each pile. With 30 kingdom cards, 20 events and 2 12 card-piles, there's not enough room for 10 of each.

Also I wonder how exactly "exchanging" works. Does that mean the Hero goes to the Champion pile?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Watno on March 30, 2015, 10:19:18 am
Is Magpie one of the 12-card piles?

Donald said there's only 10.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Orange on March 30, 2015, 10:19:31 am
Wow the art is looking really good! I hope the rest of the set looks this nice.

Agreed.  The art is amazing.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Orange on March 30, 2015, 10:20:30 am
Is Magpie one of the 12-card piles?

Donald said there's only 10.

R.I.F.   ;D
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 30, 2015, 10:20:59 am
Magpie looks like a sort of reverse Herald, the more you have the worse they are. Not nearly as bad as having tons of Rats, though.

The "upgrade chain" (Traveller type) cards changed a whole lot from the Chicago meetup, wow.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Orange on March 30, 2015, 10:21:38 am
Lost City:  candidate for best 5-cost card or am I crazy?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: jsh357 on March 30, 2015, 10:23:16 am
Lost City:  candidate for best 5-cost card or am I crazy?

Go ahead and buy one every turn and watch what happens.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Voltaire on March 30, 2015, 10:23:34 am
I wonder how many travellers there will be in each pile. With 30 kingdom cards, 20 events and 2 12 card-piles, there's not enough room for 10 of each.

You probably only need a few, right? They'll all be at different "levels" most of the time, so it probably wouldn't matter if there's only, say, 5 in a stack?

The "upgrade chain" (Traveller type) cards changed a whole lot from the Chicago meetup, wow.

Have they? I didn't get to play any games with them, just look over at you guys and go "whatever that is sounds cool!"  ;)
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: -Stef- on March 30, 2015, 10:24:45 am
Lost City:  candidate for best 5-cost card or am I crazy?

I think you underestimate the on-gain penalty, or mountebank in general.
But in the right deck it sure is good.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 30, 2015, 10:25:33 am
Lost City:  candidate for best 5-cost card or am I crazy?

+1 card is very good, I think the penalty makes up for it. I mean it probably leads to crazy fast games sometimes.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 30, 2015, 10:25:59 am
0 Beards.

I am disappoint.   Hopefully Hero will grow a beard when he becomes a Champion.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Watno on March 30, 2015, 10:26:21 am
Well, if there's less than 10 of some Traveller, you can set up a roadblock for your opponent by not exchanging them.

I'm also curious wether the basic Travellers go back to the supply.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 30, 2015, 10:26:40 am
I wonder how many travellers there will be in each pile. With 30 kingdom cards, 20 events and 2 12 card-piles, there's not enough room for 10 of each.

You probably only need a few, right? They'll all be at different "levels" most of the time, so it probably wouldn't matter if there's only, say, 5 in a stack?

The "upgrade chain" (Traveller type) cards changed a whole lot from the Chicago meetup, wow.

Have they? I didn't get to play any games with them, just look over at you guys and go "whatever that is sounds cool!"  ;)

I mean only getting to look at the one, it seems a lot more streamlined. Also there's two now.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 30, 2015, 10:27:13 am
0 Beards.

I am disappoint.   Hopefully Hero will grow a beard when he becomes a Champion.

And become a bearded lady?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 30, 2015, 10:28:24 am
I love how for the Travellers (at least Hero, I'm assuming the rest) you may upgrade (promote? evolve? level-up? travel?) them. This is likely so that it doesn't matter if you forget, but hopefully there's some nice tactical options as to when the best time to do so is.

Also,  ;D
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 10:28:33 am
0 Beards.

I am disappoint.   Hopefully Hero will grow a beard when he becomes a Champion.
Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion is a woman. So...not likely.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 30, 2015, 10:29:51 am
0 Beards.

I am disappoint.   Hopefully Hero will grow a beard when he becomes a Champion.

And become a bearded lady?

Hmm.. I guess I can see that, but I had thought it was just a fair-looking dude.  Need higher def images.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 30, 2015, 10:30:15 am
upgrade (promote? evolve? level-up? travel?)

Exchange I guess is the official word.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Watno on March 30, 2015, 10:30:55 am
Good thing Donald specified what genders the artists should draw, otherwise we might have gotten some intersting life-stories including sex change.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 30, 2015, 10:31:30 am
0 Beards.

I am disappoint.   Hopefully Hero will grow a beard when he becomes a Champion.
Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion is a woman. So...not likely.

But not impossible!
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: jsh357 on March 30, 2015, 10:32:07 am
upgrade (promote? evolve? level-up? travel?)

Exchange I guess is the official word.

Exchange is a new mechanic, yes.  I'll leave it up to Donald whether or not he wants to explain that yet.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Donald X. on March 30, 2015, 10:32:22 am
I wonder how many travellers there will be in each pile. With 30 kingdom cards, 20 events and 2 12 card-piles, there's not enough room for 10 of each.

Also I wonder how exactly "exchanging" works. Does that mean the Hero goes to the Champion pile?
There are 5 cards in each pile you upgrade into (the top two aren't Travellers, since they don't upgrade). They return to the piles, so that tends to be enough. Sometimes it isn't in multiplayer if everyone wants multiples right away.

You exchange by putting Hero back in the Hero pile, and taking a Champion. You can't exchange if the pile you're upgrading into is empty.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 30, 2015, 10:32:48 am
0 Beards.

I am disappoint.   Hopefully Hero will grow a beard when he becomes a Champion.

And become a bearded lady?

Hmm.. I guess I can see that, but I had thought it was just a fair-looking dude.  Need higher def images.

That is quite a feminine-looking waist now you mention it.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 10:33:17 am
Good thing Donald specified what genders the artists should draw, otherwise we might have gotten some intersting life-stories including sex change.

Ha! But no, one artist did the entire Peasant chain and another (Alayna) did the entire Page chain.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Burning Skull on March 30, 2015, 10:34:18 am
(http://i62.tinypic.com/314ezwo.png)
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Donald X. on March 30, 2015, 10:35:09 am
Good thing Donald specified what genders the artists should draw, otherwise we might have gotten some intersting life-stories including sex change.
Each set of 5 was done by one artist, so that it would clearly be the same character.

Edit: Like LF said.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Watno on March 30, 2015, 10:36:31 am
 Do the Teacher and the Champion die when they're played? That would be very sad :'(
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Psyduck on March 30, 2015, 10:37:57 am
Opening Lost City on 5/2 is interesting. You might give your opponents that were 4/3 a 5/2 now, and whey can give you 5/2+Lost City for example :D

Looking forward to playing my chapel on T2 via my opponent's draw. :)

Also, I love the introduction of Magpie:
Recent studies show that magpies do not especially collect shiny objects. These are folklore magpies though, which still do. Magpie might find you a treasure, or perhaps just reveal another Magpie. Over time a single Magpie can turn into a whole flock of them. There are just ten Magpies in the pile; they're not Rats with wings.

Absolutely thematic! :)
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: crlundy on March 30, 2015, 10:39:44 am
Wow, I wasn't expecting more new mechanics than the ones that made it into the flavor text! The Traveller cards sound interesting, kind of in the spirit of the RPG leveling-up aspect of Spirit Warriors II, iirc. From what we've been shown, though, I can't tell, why the Traveller type and the big arrow are necessary? At first blush it seems like a multi-step Hermit/Madman situation.

Excited for the other days and more great art!

PS Is the expansion icon banners/flags stuck in the ground?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 30, 2015, 10:40:31 am
Opening Lost City on 5/2 is interesting. You might give your opponents that were 4/3 a 5/2 now, and whey can give you 5/2+Lost City for example :D

Looking forward to playing my chapel on T2 via my opponent's draw. :)

Also, I love the introduction of Magpie:
Recent studies show that magpies do not especially collect shiny objects. These are folklore magpies though, which still do. Magpie might find you a treasure, or perhaps just reveal another Magpie. Over time a single Magpie can turn into a whole flock of them. There are just ten Magpies in the pile; they're not Rats with wings.

Absolutely thematic! :)

Magpies are related to pigeons?  Nice!
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Sidsel on March 30, 2015, 10:41:41 am
0 Beards.

I am disappoint.   Hopefully Hero will grow a beard when he becomes a Champion.
Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion is a woman. So...not likely.

But not impossible!

In a certain sense she is Growing the Beard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrowingTheBeard) every time she levels up...
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 10:42:33 am
Wow, I wasn't expecting more new mechanics than the ones that made it into the flavor text! The Traveller cards sound interesting, kind of in the spirit of the RPG leveling-up aspect of Spirit Warriors II, iirc. From what we've been shown, though, I can't tell, why the Traveller type and the big arrow are necessary? At first blush it seems like a multi-step Hermit/Madman situation.

It can be pretty easy to forget to upgrade your Travellers in real-life games.

PS Is the expansion icon banners/flags stuck in the ground?

It's a campfire.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Robz888 on March 30, 2015, 10:42:37 am
Now, for the real question on everyone's mind.

How Do These Cards Combo With Scout?

Quite well, obviously. Lost City makes for a really nice 3-card combo with Scout and Ambassador. You buy Scout, you buy Ambassador, you Ambassador your Scout over to your opponent, and then when you buy Lost City, hey, maybe that extra Card they draw is a Scout. Throne Room makes this an even stronger 4-card combo. Give them two Scouts, and you can buy another Lost City. Maybe. Don't get too carried away.

With Magpie, the combo is so obvious I don't even need to spell it out. Magpie has the words Action and Victory card printed on it, for goodness sake. Can you think of an Action card that does something with Victory cards? No, not Crossroads. Not Nobles. Not Rebuild. Not Baron. Not Bureaucrat. Not Dame Josephine. Here, let me help you, this is embarrassing: Scout.

Hero says (This is not in the supply.) But Scout is in the supply. You generally want to have a Supply card, in addition to Hero. Hero combos with supply cards. And who knows, maybe this elusive Champion card turns into Scout.

That's synergy, folks.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: AHoppy on March 30, 2015, 10:43:13 am
PS Is the expansion icon banners/flags stuck in the ground?
Looks like a campfire to me
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Grujah on March 30, 2015, 10:43:50 am
When is our 4th card coming?  ;D
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 10:44:29 am
When is our 4th card coming?  ;D

12:30 PM EDT, like Theory said.

EDIT: At least, I assume that's what he meant.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: blaisepascal on March 30, 2015, 10:48:59 am

There are 5 cards in each pile you upgrade into (the top two aren't Travellers, since they don't upgrade). They return to the piles, so that tends to be enough. Sometimes it isn't in multiplayer if everyone wants multiples right away.

You exchange by putting Hero back in the Hero pile, and taking a Champion. You can't exchange if the pile you're upgrading into is empty.

Does that mean that if you are playing a game with Pages, there are 10 pages, and 4 additional piles of 5 cards each? So in a really complicated game you could end up with at least 11 non-supply piles (Spoils, Madmen, Mercenaries, 6 Travelers, Champions, Teachers)?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Watno on March 30, 2015, 10:49:57 am
Yeah, I guess Goko will need to add a 3rd page.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 10:50:55 am

There are 5 cards in each pile you upgrade into (the top two aren't Travellers, since they don't upgrade). They return to the piles, so that tends to be enough. Sometimes it isn't in multiplayer if everyone wants multiples right away.

You exchange by putting Hero back in the Hero pile, and taking a Champion. You can't exchange if the pile you're upgrading into is empty.

Does that mean that if you are playing a game with Pages, there are 10 pages, and 4 additional piles of 5 cards each? So in a really complicated game you could end up with at least 11 non-supply piles (Spoils, Madmen, Mercenaries, 6 Travelers, Champions, Teachers)?

Don't forget Prizes! And the Black Market deck, I guess.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 30, 2015, 10:51:17 am
0 Beards.

I am disappoint.   Hopefully Hero will grow a beard when he becomes a Champion.
Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion is a woman. So...not likely.

I honestly was expecting the Peasant line to be a woman, but this is a pleasant (if not exactly historically accurate) surprise.  :)

I wonder how many travellers there will be in each pile. With 30 kingdom cards, 20 events and 2 12 card-piles, there's not enough room for 10 of each.

Also I wonder how exactly "exchanging" works. Does that mean the Hero goes to the Champion pile?

EDIT: Never mind.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Donald X. on March 30, 2015, 10:51:28 am
Does that mean that if you are playing a game with Pages, there are 10 pages, and 4 additional piles of 5 cards each? So in a really complicated game you could end up with at least 11 non-supply piles (Spoils, Madmen, Mercenaries, 6 Travelers, Champions, Teachers)?
Yes. You may wish to not play with all of those cards at once, or to specifically do so. Since they're non-supply, if table space is an issue, you could just have them in one big pile and paw through it as needed.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: jsh357 on March 30, 2015, 10:54:41 am
Yeah, I guess Goko will need to add a 3rd page.

Hey now, don't get too excited.  Adding a third page could take them months.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 30, 2015, 10:55:48 am
Okay so since we refer to them as Urchin/Mercenary and Hermit/Madman, do we now have Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion and Peasant/Soldier/Fugitive/Disciple/Teacher, or simply Page and Peasant? If the latter, will that cause us to refer to them simply as Urchin and Hermit?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 10:57:06 am
Yeah, I guess Goko will need to add a 3rd page.

Hey now, don't get too excited.  Adding a third page could take them months.

I assume that it just automatically uses more pages. You can test it now; a third page is already possible with Prizes, Spoils, Black Market, Young Witch, Madman, Mercenary, and Ruins.

EDIT: I tested it, and yes, three pages work fine now.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Varsinor on March 30, 2015, 10:57:54 am
And all that upgradable cards don't look cool with Swindler around

Why?

I mean, sure, you'd almost always prefer not to get a card swindled. But why would it be particularly bad for the Travellers?
We know from the preview that Page costs $2 and Hero costs $5. So the other three ones are probably $3, $4 and $6. I would assume these prices are supposed to roughly reflect not only the strength of their one-time effect, but also the potential of exchanging them. (Or aren't they, Donald?)

So sure, getting your Page swindled into an Estate early hurts a lot. But that's the same as with (almost) any other $2 card. Getting f. e. a Silver for a $3 Treasure Hunter doesn't sound particularly bad. And with the $5 Hero, it will depend on how early they are hit just as with most of the $5 cards - swindling them early hurts a lot, but later on Duchies are not so bad and most other $5 cards usually aren't, either.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Tombolo on March 30, 2015, 10:58:25 am
The "upgrade chain" (Traveller type) cards changed a whole lot from the Chicago meetup, wow.

No kiddin', dang.  I think I personally liked the old version better but that's entirely because I like overly complicated things.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 30, 2015, 10:59:17 am
The "upgrade chain" (Traveller type) cards changed a whole lot from the Chicago meetup, wow.

No kiddin', dang.  I think I personally liked the old version better but that's entirely because I like overly complicated things.

I hope this will all be revealed in the Secret History.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 10:59:30 am
And all that upgradable cards don't look cool with Swindler around

Why?

I mean, sure, you'd almost always prefer not to get a card swindled. But why would it be particularly bad for the Travellers?
We know from the preview that Page costs $2 and Hero costs $5. So the other three ones are probably $3, $4 and $6. I would assume these prices are supposed to roughly reflect not only the strength of their one-time effect, but also the potential of exchanging them. (Or aren't they, Donald?)

So sure, getting your Page swindled into an Estate early hurts a lot. But that's the same as with (almost) any other $2 card. Getting f. e. a Silver for a $3 Treasure Hunter doesn't sound particularly bad. And with the $5 Hero, it will depend on how early they are hit just as with most of the $5 cards - swindling them early hurts a lot, but later on Duchies are not so bad and most other $5 cards usually aren't, either.

It's bad, man. Maybe you really want that Hero (it's a Platinum game or something). If your Warrior gets Swindled and you don't already have some other Travellers, you've been set back a few shuffles.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 30, 2015, 10:59:50 am
I find it interesting that Magpie doesn't gain another Magpie if a Curse is revealed.

Query: is exchanging considered gaining?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Joseph2302 on March 30, 2015, 11:01:34 am
Is Magpie one of the 12-card piles?

Donald said there's only 10.

R.I.F.   ;D
12 card piles are usually victory cards. Unless Donald X is doing something crazy instead...
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: jsh357 on March 30, 2015, 11:01:59 am
Okay so since we refer to them as Urchin/Mercenary and Hermit/Madman, do we now have Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion and Peasant/Soldier/Fugitive/Disciple/Teacher, or simply Page and Peasant? If the latter, will that cause us to refer to them simply as Urchin and Hermit?

I dunno about the other testers but I refer to them as the Page line and the Peasant line.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 11:02:58 am
The "upgrade chain" (Traveller type) cards changed a whole lot from the Chicago meetup, wow.

No kiddin', dang.  I think I personally liked the old version better but that's entirely because I like overly complicated things.

The new cards are way cooler. Hero is just the the simplest Traveller upgrade.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: markusin on March 30, 2015, 11:06:22 am
Okay so since we refer to them as Urchin/Mercenary and Hermit/Madman, do we now have Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion and Peasant/Soldier/Fugitive/Disciple/Teacher, or simply Page and Peasant? If the latter, will that cause us to refer to them simply as Urchin and Hermit?
Page Line and Peasant Line should describe the chain well enough. Now we know what the big arrows mentioned in the teasers are. I was worried they would be weird add-on effects like the city cards in Innovation.

Really excited for all these cards. Lost City should lead to new Dominion puzzles. You can do a lot of those Rats pileout and upgrade shenanigans with Magpie. Plus it's a vagrant that can  pick up those yellow curses. Speaking of yellow curses, Hero's effect is one I was hoping to see on a card for awhile, but not being able to buy it directly should help the effect be balanced.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Donald X. on March 30, 2015, 11:09:02 am
Query: is exchanging considered gaining?
Exchanging is not gaining.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: tailred on March 30, 2015, 11:10:06 am
Would exchanging rule out scheme shenanigans like with hermit?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Donald X. on March 30, 2015, 11:11:30 am
The "upgrade chain" (Traveller type) cards changed a whole lot from the Chicago meetup, wow.

No kiddin', dang.  I think I personally liked the old version better but that's entirely because I like overly complicated things.

I hope this will all be revealed in the Secret History.
Yes, all will be revealed. The original version was way too slow, and also having the cards all be vanilla wasn't great. The new version is fast and the cards are way more interesting. Anyway, there is a secret history, that is where the secret history will be told.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Seprix on March 30, 2015, 11:12:24 am
Why can't I preorder yet :'( TAKE MY MONEY DONALD
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Varsinor on March 30, 2015, 11:12:30 am
Maybe you really want that Hero (it's a Platinum game or something).

That's true for most $5 cards, also that there are specific setups in which they are especially important. The Swindler can indeed easily be a very nasty card.

If your Warrior gets Swindled and you don't already have some other Travellers, you've been set back a few shuffles.

OK, that sounds convincing. So one could say that Swindlers can be especially bad against Travellers, because of the increased time it takes to exchange Travellers.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Sidsel on March 30, 2015, 11:13:00 am
O knowledgeable and wise ones; will Chancellor become halfway decent as a catalyst for the Traveller types? And what about Inn? Could I Watchtower the exchanged cards and get to the top of the chain in no time?

Edit: nope, exchanging is not gaining, so I guess Watchtower is out.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 30, 2015, 11:13:17 am
I do like the flavor of Lost City - "We've discovered a Lost City!" your archaeologists cry, but before you can start making use of it, all the tourists have prowled around it already, breaking into tombs and making a mess of things.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Donald X. on March 30, 2015, 11:13:44 am
Would exchanging rule out scheme shenanigans like with hermit?
Exchanging requires actually having both the card leaving and the card coming in. If I resolve Scheme first and put Hero on top, I can't get a Champion with it that turn. If I exchange Hero for Champion first, the Champion is in my discard pile and the Hero is gone, Scheme does nothing.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 30, 2015, 11:14:37 am
O knowledgeable and wise ones; will Chancellor become halfway decent as a catalyst for the Traveller types? And what about Inn? Could I Watchtower the exchanged cards and get to the top of the chain in no time?

Edit: nope, exchanging is not gaining, so I guess Watchtower is out.

You could Herald them at the end of your next turn, though.  Chancellor would work just fine.  :)
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 11:14:42 am
I do like the flavor of Lost City - "We've discovered a Lost City!" your archaeologists cry, but before you can start making use of it, all the tourists have prowled around it already, breaking into tombs and making a mess of things.

I always thought of it like, it took so long for you to discover the Lost City that your rivals had more time to get things done.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: pacovf on March 30, 2015, 11:17:18 am
A non-supply card that doesn't cost 0. Inconceivable!

PPE ~37
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Chris is me on March 30, 2015, 11:18:07 am
Why can't I preorder yet :'( TAKE MY MONEY DONALD

A bunch of random sites I've never heard of on Google let you pre-order and seem to promise shipping on launch day. I just ordered one a few minutes ago. Nothing on Amazon though, or any sites promising *delivery* launch day.

These cards are so cool. If this is the first, most boring preview, I'm really excited.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 30, 2015, 11:19:23 am
What I like about Adventures is that it has all of the wackiness of Dark Ages, but without the "TRASH EVERYTHING" vibe.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 11:23:16 am
Special bonus: when having discussions, no longer do we have to refer to [+2 Cards; +2 Actions] as once-upgraded Cities or level-two Cities or what have you. Lost City to the rescue!
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Voltaire on March 30, 2015, 11:23:21 am
Why can't I preorder yet :'( TAKE MY MONEY DONALD

You can also pre-order from your local game shop, if you happen to have one of those things.  :)
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: hvb on March 30, 2015, 11:24:09 am
I already like the magpie a lot. The art is very nice and it seems simple to play (no hard decisions to make once bought).
Its a bit comparable to vagrant, but much stronger, as you get another magpie, if you dont hit a treasure. In early game one of the seldom case you might want your card not to hit. The hitting chance is much higher in early game than with vagrant.
So it looks like a decent opener if you expect the game to last long, especially in slogs.
Magpie might also enable engines if there is no copper trashing available.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: eHalcyon on March 30, 2015, 11:24:33 am
I predicted Traveller cards!  I thought that you would be instructed to trash a card to gain the next one in the chain, instead of it being an "exchange" (which would mean... return the card to its pile?).

I also had speculated that there might be branching paths, but it looks like it's just two long lines.

Oh, and all this speculation was back when Dark Ages was just a blurb...

I would imagine that there will be a card that can gain from the trash, and it could also be a card that could Upgrade itself (or is tied to such a card, a la Young Witch and its bane).  Upgrading would be "trash this, gain that (not in the supply)."

I'm thinking more on the lines of Feast, but with specific upgrade paths, i.e. buy A from supply, trash it to get B* (not in supply), trash that to get C* (not in supply).  The description did mention many cards that "you can only get via specific other cards".

Re: The upgrade actions/ cards you can only gain via other cards.

Is anyone else thinking of the hero cards in Thunderstone? Perhaps including the fact that there will be fewer than 10 of the level 2 and level 3 versions, so it will be a race to upgrade?

If so, a lot of people will hate those cards.

I was thinking that there would be MORE of the special upgraded cards than the upgrade-able cards in the Supply, so that you could make a "gain from trash" card not only worth it but necessary, in order to get more of the good stuff.  So for example:

The supply includes Twig (10 copies, standard).  There are two special cards, Torch and Bonfire.

Twig - $2
+1 Card, +$1.  You may trash this to gain a Torch.  You may reveal and trash a second Twig to gain Bonfire instead.

Torch - $3* (not in supply)
+2 Cards, +$1.  You may trash this and a Twig or a second Torch from your hand to gain a Bonfire.

Bonfire - $5* (not in supply)
+2 Cards, +$1, +1 Action.  Choose one: gain a Twig or Torch from the trash; or trash any number of Twigs and Torches from your hand for $2 each.



And of course, a separate trash-gainer would help you recover those precious Twigs more quickly.

Edit: By the way, my use of twigs stems (semi-pun semi-intended) from the text:

Quote
You beg twigs from the villagers, and they beg them back, but no-one really seems to come out ahead.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 30, 2015, 11:27:50 am
Is it just me or will Big Money Magpie be a thing?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 11:28:30 am
Yes, I also thought that Dark Ages's "upgrading cards" would be more like what you describe, eHalcyon, although I pictured an upgrading city rather than a bonfire. I'm glad the Travellers are more varied than that, though (Spoiler: Warrior is not [+$1; Gain a Treasure] and Treasure Hunter is not [Gain a Treasure]).
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: pubby on March 30, 2015, 11:29:02 am
So it looks like a decent opener if you expect the game to last long, especially in slogs.
It seems like it would be a decent opener in engine games too. Very similar to opening Wishing Well.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: AdamH on March 30, 2015, 11:31:23 am
Magpie == Bacon Cheeseburger, for the curious.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 30, 2015, 11:33:25 am
Magpie == Bacon Cheeseburger, for the curious.

Not a fan?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 11:34:46 am
Magpie == Bacon Cheeseburger, for the curious.

Huh. I assumed it was Champion.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 30, 2015, 11:41:29 am
Magpie == Bacon Cheeseburger, for the curious.

Huh. I assumed it was Champion.

So did I.  You guys will see why soon enough.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: tailred on March 30, 2015, 11:43:20 am
Is it just me or will Big Money Magpie be a thing?
It'll be hard to trigger the self-gain, though. They'll be no better than wishing wells for BM till you start accumulating a decent amount of silvers/golds. They also conflict with terminal draw.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 30, 2015, 11:44:53 am
Is it just me or will Big Money Magpie be a thing?
It'll be hard to trigger the self-gain, though. They'll be no better than wishing wells for BM till you start accumulating a decent amount of silvers/golds. They also conflict with terminal draw.

Won't they be Labs most of the time since most of your deck is Treasure?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: pst on March 30, 2015, 11:45:57 am
Now, for the real question on everyone's mind.

How Do These Cards Combo With Scout?
[,,,]

Also, Scout is a $4 action card, like Magpie, so it's a good card to use as a proxy for Magpie for the time being.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: iguanaiguana on March 30, 2015, 11:45:58 am
Anyone else seeing a really nice hero/scout combo when harem is on the board? Choose any treasure you like, so that may as well be a treasure/victory, so that your scout can handily draw it into your...hand.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 30, 2015, 11:46:25 am
Is it just me or will Big Money Magpie be a thing?
It'll be hard to trigger the self-gain, though. They'll be no better than wishing wells for BM till you start accumulating a decent amount of silvers/golds. They also conflict with terminal draw.

Won't they be Labs most of the time since most of your deck is Treasure?

Oh I see, so are all of us WWs since you're guessing Coppers. Maybe you buy 2-3?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Seprix on March 30, 2015, 11:51:57 am
There's no reason to buy more than 1 Magpie.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 11:54:53 am
There's no reason to buy more than 1 Magpie.

Man, false. You don't want to have to buy more than one, but sometimes it's the move.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: eHalcyon on March 30, 2015, 11:56:33 am
Yes, I also thought that Dark Ages's "upgrading cards" would be more like what you describe, eHalcyon, although I pictured an upgrading city rather than a bonfire. I'm glad the Travellers are more varied than that, though (Spoiler: Warrior is not [+$1; Gain a Treasure] and Treasure Hunter is not [Gain a Treasure]).

My use of Twigs and Bonfires back then was just a joke (derived from the Dark Ages flavour text), and the simple, consistent effects were just for clarity.  I was only trying to describe the chaining, not come up with an interesting line. :)

Just to comment on the other two previewed cards --

Lost City looks really strong.  If somebody had posted this as a fan card, I would probably have commented that the drawback did not seem to be enough.  I am either overestimating the vanilla bonuses or underestimating the drawback, probably a little of both.

Early on, a single Magpie is a lot like a Peddler in that you expect it to draw you a bonus Copper (for $1).  The bonus is increased cycling from actually drawing another card.  Having a larger hand is often good too (though sometimes bad).  It can be better than Peddler when it draws a better treasure than Copper (later in the game) but it can also whiff when it flips a non-treasure.  Gaining another Magpie may be good or bad depending on whether you want more Magpies, but they are cantrips and they don't force you to trash cards, so they're not nearly as bad as Rats.  They get in the way of terminal draw and they make Magpies less useful overall (more actions getting in the way of treasure-finding).

I am now caught up in the conversation, hooray!  I am surprised there aren't more pages of discussion yet, but I guess it is still early.

PPE: Is this "Bacon Cheeseburger" talk about the prototype card names?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Varsinor on March 30, 2015, 11:56:58 am
Now, for the real question on everyone's mind.

How Do These Cards Combo With Scout?
[,,,]

Also, Scout is a $4 action card, like Magpie,

Exactly!
So while we're already discussing Swindler:

Magpie makes Scout even stronger, because the Magpie pile will probably be emptied quickly and after that, the opponent will have to swindle your Magpies into Scouts!
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: GwinnR on March 30, 2015, 11:58:42 am
If I reveal an action-victory card like Great Hall with Magpie, do I gain 2 magpies?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 30, 2015, 11:59:54 am
If I reveal an action-victory card like Great Hall with Magpie, do I gain 2 magpies?

No.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on March 30, 2015, 12:02:25 pm
Lost City is really strong, but it invites you to play all the other actions on the board too. So I'd say yes, you'll be playing a lot of Lost City games but they should have good variety.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 30, 2015, 12:02:56 pm
Lost City looks really strong.  If somebody had posted this as a fan card, I would probably have commented that the drawback did not seem to be enough.  I am either overestimating the vanilla bonuses or underestimating the drawback, probably a little of both.

Let's compare Council Room and Lost City:

-CR has on *on play* penalty.  You can get however many you want, but you have to be careful playing them.
-LC has an *on gain* penalty.  Be careful getting them, but once you have them, have a ball.

But which penalty is worse?  The CR penalty happens more often, but not until you've actually gotten a use out of the card.  The LC penalty only happens once, but you might not be able to use the card at all if it's too close to the end of the game.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on March 30, 2015, 12:06:26 pm
The LC penalty only happens once, but you might not be able to use the card at all if it's too close to the end of the game.

This doesn't make any sense. It's an engine card so you are often playing it either the turn you gain or within the next 1-2 turns. You definitely aren't gaining them at the very end of the game (barring 3-pile). You are going to use the Lost Cities you gain.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 30, 2015, 12:10:10 pm
The LC penalty only happens once, but you might not be able to use the card at all if it's too close to the end of the game.

This doesn't make any sense. It's an engine card so you are often playing it either the turn you gain or within the next 1-2 turns. You definitely aren't gaining them at the very end of the game (barring 3-pile). You are going to use the Lost Cities you gain.

Well, it's still your opponent(s) getting benefit before you do.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 30, 2015, 12:12:10 pm
New best opening: KC/Chapel?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: hvb on March 30, 2015, 12:15:52 pm
Lost City looks really strong.  If somebody had posted this as a fan card, I would probably have commented that the drawback did not seem to be enough.  I am either overestimating the vanilla bonuses or underestimating the drawback, probably a little of both.

Let's compare Council Room and Lost City:

-CR has on *on play* penalty.  You can get however many you want, but you have to be careful playing them.
-LC has an *on gain* penalty.  Be careful getting them, but once you have them, have a ball.

But which penalty is worse?  The CR penalty happens more often, but not until you've actually gotten a use out of the card.  The LC penalty only happens once, but you might not be able to use the card at all if it's too close to the end of the game.

I am not a fan of this comparision, but if you do so i think the council room penalty is much more worse.
Even if a penalty earlier hurts more than later in the game, you want to play a council room mostly at least 4-5 times in the game. So the worse lost city penalty will get eaten up quickly by the multiple CR-penalties.
The main argument might be, that games, where council rooms were used, are in most cases village-draw engines. These engines are heavily dependant on the realibility of having village-draw in hand, that a 6th card benefits your opponent disproportionately.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 30, 2015, 12:16:45 pm
New best opening: KC/Chapel?

4th player advantage ftw

EDIT: And yeah, pretty sure CR penalty is much worse.  Was kind of confused when I first saw the card.  Is +4 Cards/+1 Buy really that much better than +2 Cards/+2 Actions?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: -Stef- on March 30, 2015, 12:17:12 pm
Magpie is the card in Adventures that had me worried.
I hope I overestimate it, but if I don't...

I already like the magpie a lot. The art is very nice and it seems simple to play (no hard decisions to make once bought).
Its a bit comparable to vagrant, but much stronger, as you get another magpie, if you dont hit a treasure. In early game one of the seldom case you might want your card not to hit. The hitting chance is much higher in early game than with vagrant.
So it looks like a decent opener if you expect the game to last long, especially in slogs.
Magpie might also enable engines if there is no copper trashing available.

... you can scratch all the maybe's, mights and decents from this paragraph.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: qmech on March 30, 2015, 12:20:45 pm
Great start!  Now I just have to find an old post that makes it look like I predicted something.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: hvb on March 30, 2015, 12:23:19 pm

... you can scratch all the maybe's, mights and decents from this paragraph.

I am surprised of this advise. One hour after releasing its too early to scratch them. How often even good players thought in past, this card is much too strong and will have a huge negative impact on the game while it has not.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Watno on March 30, 2015, 12:24:48 pm
Except Stef already played the full set afaik
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: hvb on March 30, 2015, 12:28:50 pm
Except Stef already played the full set afaik

Maybe, i dont know, but i have not.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: -Stef- on March 30, 2015, 12:28:53 pm

... you can scratch all the maybe's, mights and decents from this paragraph.

I am surprised of this advise. One hour after releasing its too early to scratch them. How often even good players thought in past, this card is much too strong and will have a huge negative impact on the game while it has not.

I did not say it would have huge negative impact on the game at all.
Huge negative impact = strong + boring. (rebuild, cultist)
This card is just strong.
And if I'm not mistaken, very strong.

And yes I've played with it.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: hvb on March 30, 2015, 12:35:27 pm
My impression was totally different reading the whole post. Since you have played with that card, i also hope you overestimate it.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: crlundy on March 30, 2015, 12:36:13 pm
Lost City looks really strong.  If somebody had posted this as a fan card, I would probably have commented that the drawback did not seem to be enough.  I am either overestimating the vanilla bonuses or underestimating the drawback, probably a little of both.

Let's compare Council Room and Lost City:

-CR has on *on play* penalty.  You can get however many you want, but you have to be careful playing them.
-LC has an *on gain* penalty.  Be careful getting them, but once you have them, have a ball.

But which penalty is worse?  The CR penalty happens more often, but not until you've actually gotten a use out of the card.  The LC penalty only happens once, but you might not be able to use the card at all if it's too close to the end of the game.

FWIW, you can mitigate Council Room with Militias. With Lost City, the next player can Militia but he (and potentially everyone else) is definitely getting a turn with an extra card.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 30, 2015, 12:42:19 pm
New best opening: KC/Chapel?

Potion/Golem.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 30, 2015, 12:43:53 pm
Lost City looks really strong.  If somebody had posted this as a fan card, I would probably have commented that the drawback did not seem to be enough.  I am either overestimating the vanilla bonuses or underestimating the drawback, probably a little of both.

Let's compare Council Room and Lost City:

-CR has on *on play* penalty.  You can get however many you want, but you have to be careful playing them.
-LC has an *on gain* penalty.  Be careful getting them, but once you have them, have a ball.

But which penalty is worse?  The CR penalty happens more often, but not until you've actually gotten a use out of the card.  The LC penalty only happens once, but you might not be able to use the card at all if it's too close to the end of the game.

FWIW, you can mitigate Council Room with Militias. With Lost City, the next player can Militia but he (and potentially everyone else) is definitely getting a turn with an extra card.

It's On-Gain, not On-Buy, so you could still Militia if you Gain it during your Action Phase.  (Or if you Buy it from the Black Market deck.)
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: ben_king on March 30, 2015, 01:42:12 pm
I already like the magpie a lot. The art is very nice and it seems simple to play (no hard decisions to make once bought).
Its a bit comparable to vagrant, but much stronger, as you get another magpie, if you dont hit a treasure. In early game one of the seldom case you might want your card not to hit. The hitting chance is much higher in early game than with vagrant.
So it looks like a decent opener if you expect the game to last long, especially in slogs.
Magpie might also enable engines if there is no copper trashing available.

It looks like there's some synergy between Magpie and a Scrying Pool engine.  Either you draw a treasure into your hand, which helps your Scrying Pool hit more actions or you gain another cantrip, which doesn't really hurt.  Magpie might strengthen Scrying Pool when there's not strong trashing.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: ephesos on March 30, 2015, 01:50:33 pm
The second I saw Lost Cities I thought it was the Reiner Knizia card game. http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/50/lost-cities
Totally ready for a cross game promo

Handshake
Action-Victory
You must play this before you play any other Victory cards that aren't Handshakes.
When you play this, set it aside.
If this is the first Handshake you've played this game, at the end of the game, subtract 20 from your total score. Then multiply it by 2.
Other Handshakes you play after the first only increase this multiplier by 1.

It's Action-Victory, so of course, it's the green handshake.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 30, 2015, 02:18:15 pm
My thoughts:

Lost City: Card is obviously powerful, tricky thing is how bad the drawback is. I think that will actually vary pretty wildly, but it's pretty easy to underestimate. Obviously the card is best when that's not really a drawback - for instance, if they are drawing their deck anyways, or if they don't have enough buys to make all their money, or best of all if you possess them. The card is a LOT worse than village or lab when you only need one of those two effects. I guess you try to get this as late as possible - definitely prefer other draw cards first until you are over-terminal-ed - but it's going to depend a lot on the board. I think I like it, though I think people will overrate it out of the gate.

Magpie, that is an interesting one. It's easy to look at it and see all upside... and that doesn't seem far off. Only way it can be bad is that other things have more impact. Not great in a treasureless deck, but in about any deck with them, seems real solid. Doesn't do anything SUPER special by itself, but I imagine you will usually want to pick one up. Maybe you pick up another sometimes, especially if there's like, no trashing, but I imagine you're going to feel kind of bad for losing value. Big thing to note is that the pile will probably run really fast really often.

Hero: Basically impossible to analyze without the other cards in the chain. Just want to note that to get all the way to the top of these, it's going to take a lot of shuffles, so if you're counting on that, you need to prepare accordingly.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 30, 2015, 02:20:57 pm

Magpie, that is an interesting one. It's easy to look at it and see all upside... and that doesn't seem far off. Only way it can be bad is that other things have more impact. Not great in a treasureless deck, but in about any deck with them, seems real solid. Doesn't do anything SUPER special by itself, but I imagine you will usually want to pick one up. Maybe you pick up another sometimes, especially if there's like, no trashing, but I imagine you're going to feel kind of bad for losing value. Big thing to note is that the pile will probably run really fast really often.

Could be useful in a treasureless deck for trash-for-benefit  fodder.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 30, 2015, 02:27:03 pm
I am excited for Magpie/Vineyards and Magpie/Scrying Pool.

Also, Hero can get you P-Stone without needing a Potion. Clearly a power combo right there.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: GendoIkari on March 30, 2015, 02:28:10 pm
And all that upgradable cards don't look cool with Swindler around

Why?

I mean, sure, you'd almost always prefer not to get a card swindled. But why would it be particularly bad for the Travellers?
We know from the preview that Page costs $2 and Hero costs $5. So the other three ones are probably $3, $4 and $6. I would assume these prices are supposed to roughly reflect not only the strength of their one-time effect, but also the potential of exchanging them. (Or aren't they, Donald?)

So sure, getting your Page swindled into an Estate early hurts a lot. But that's the same as with (almost) any other $2 card. Getting f. e. a Silver for a $3 Treasure Hunter doesn't sound particularly bad. And with the $5 Hero, it will depend on how early they are hit just as with most of the $5 cards - swindling them early hurts a lot, but later on Duchies are not so bad and most other $5 cards usually aren't, either.

It definitely hurts more... because you can't re-buy the card you lost. It's kind of like getting a Prize swindled. You spent several shuffles getting to that card.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: hvb on March 30, 2015, 02:28:22 pm
Big thing to note is that the pile will probably run really fast really often.


It can pile itself if you want to, if you can manage to draw your deck and put lets says 2 magpies in your discard.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 02:28:54 pm
I am excited for Magpie/Vineyards and Magpie/Scrying Pool.

Also, Hero can get you P-Stone without needing a Potion. Clearly a power combo right there.

Actually, yes. That's probably very powerful on some boards.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: popsofctown on March 30, 2015, 02:38:25 pm
I am excited for Magpie/Vineyards and Magpie/Scrying Pool.

Also, Hero can get you P-Stone without needing a Potion. Clearly a power combo right there.

Why does an obvious combo that both players will mirror make you excited?  Don't you prefer things that generate choice, not funnel choice?

EDIT: of course getting Hero Swindled is terrible, goodness, you think that card would be balanced as a 5$ with no asterisk?  It's too strong for 5$ even without its ability to graduate.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 02:39:12 pm
I am excited for Magpie/Vineyards and Magpie/Scrying Pool.

Also, Hero can get you P-Stone without needing a Potion. Clearly a power combo right there.

Why does an obvious combo that both players will mirror make you excited?  Don't you prefer things that generate choice, not funnel choice?

Combos are fun! :))
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: GendoIkari on March 30, 2015, 02:40:04 pm
A non-supply card that doesn't cost 0. Inconceivable!

PPE ~37

Has already existed since Dark Ages.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: GendoIkari on March 30, 2015, 02:41:32 pm
Special bonus: when having discussions, no longer do we have to refer to [+2 Cards; +2 Actions] as once-upgraded Cities or level-two Cities or what have you. Lost City to the rescue!

Testing...

Herald can either be just a cantrip, or a Lost City.

It works!
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 02:41:43 pm
A non-supply card that doesn't cost 0. Inconceivable!

PPE ~37

Has already existed since Dark Ages.

It took me a while to realize you were talking about Shelters.

Special bonus: when having discussions, no longer do we have to refer to [+2 Cards; +2 Actions] as once-upgraded Cities or level-two Cities or what have you. Lost City to the rescue!

Testing...

Herald can either be just a cantrip, or a Lost City.

It works!

Woohoo!
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 30, 2015, 02:43:18 pm
Above line, Lost City is a City where one supply pile has been lost.  It checks out.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 30, 2015, 02:45:14 pm
I am excited for Magpie/Vineyards and Magpie/Scrying Pool.

Also, Hero can get you P-Stone without needing a Potion. Clearly a power combo right there.

Actually, yes. That's probably very powerful on some boards.

I doubt it, considering that you have to buy a card, then play three cards, all on successive shuffles, after. One way to do that fast would be to trash down (but then P Stone isn't good). So I guess maybe if you have tons of silvers, and you don't want whatever the other cards in the chain are, and the rest of the board isn't all that strong, and...
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: crlundy on March 30, 2015, 02:48:43 pm
Also, Hero can get you P-Stone without needing a Potion. Clearly a power combo right there.
See also: Trashing Squire, gaining Familiar.

I doubt it, considering that you have to buy a card, then play three cards, all on successive shuffles, after. One way to do that fast would be to trash down (but then P Stone isn't good). So I guess maybe if you have tons of silvers, and you don't want whatever the other cards in the chain are, and the rest of the board isn't all that strong, and...
But it's just so fun. Gaining Potion-costing cards without a Potion always feels satisfyingly like cheating. :)
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: GendoIkari on March 30, 2015, 02:57:06 pm
Magpie is the card in Adventures that had me worried.
I hope I overestimate it, but if I don't...

I already like the magpie a lot. The art is very nice and it seems simple to play (no hard decisions to make once bought).
Its a bit comparable to vagrant, but much stronger, as you get another magpie, if you dont hit a treasure. In early game one of the seldom case you might want your card not to hit. The hitting chance is much higher in early game than with vagrant.
So it looks like a decent opener if you expect the game to last long, especially in slogs.
Magpie might also enable engines if there is no copper trashing available.

... you can scratch all the maybe's, mights and decents from this paragraph.

I already like the magpie a lot. The art is very nice and it seems simple to play (no hard decisions to make once bought).
Its a bit comparable to vagrant, but much stronger, as you get another magpie, if you dont hit a treasure. In early game one of the seldom case you want your card not to hit. The hitting chance is much higher in early game than with vagrant.
So it looks like an opener if you expect the game to last long, especially in slogs.
Magpie also enable engines if there is no copper trashing available.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Titandrake on March 30, 2015, 02:58:59 pm
Magpie seems very strong to me. The standard is $4 for +1 card +1 action +$1. If Magpie hits a treasure, you're guaranteed that much plus you cycle one card deeper. If it doesn't, you get more chances to draw cards.

The only downsides I can see are:
- if you get hit by Militia, it makes choosing actions harder.
- if you're playing a +Cards and only have 1 action left, you're probably going to draw lots of Magpies instead of something good.

The first is only a small downside in my opinion, and the second is mitigated by all the Magpies you have - if you have lots of Magpies, you have better chances of sweeping up Treasures into your hand, and therefore are less likely to draw dead cards in your engine.

I don't think it's broken - I would say it's around as good as Ironmonger, and that's a pretty strong bar. Ironmonger doesn't gain more copies of itself, but you can cycle 1 card deeper on every play, revealing an Action makes it less likely you draw cantrips dead, and revealing a Victory is amazing. I think the Action + Victory parts balance out against Magpie's self-gain. The only part that worries me is that 8-10 Magpies enables a lot more engines, and gaining more Magpies is very easy and snowbally, so in games where Magpie is good, there's going to be much more variance.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: GendoIkari on March 30, 2015, 03:04:05 pm
Lost City looks really strong.  If somebody had posted this as a fan card, I would probably have commented that the drawback did not seem to be enough.  I am either overestimating the vanilla bonuses or underestimating the drawback, probably a little of both.

Let's compare Council Room and Lost City:

-CR has on *on play* penalty.  You can get however many you want, but you have to be careful playing them.
-LC has an *on gain* penalty.  Be careful getting them, but once you have them, have a ball.

But which penalty is worse?  The CR penalty happens more often, but not until you've actually gotten a use out of the card.  The LC penalty only happens once, but you might not be able to use the card at all if it's too close to the end of the game.

FWIW, you can mitigate Council Room with Militias. With Lost City, the next player can Militia but he (and potentially everyone else) is definitely getting a turn with an extra card.

It's On-Gain, not On-Buy, so you could still Militia if you Gain it during your Action Phase.  (Or if you Buy it from the Black Market deck.)

Ooh, so with Lost Cities in the Kingdom, Ambassador becomes a draw card!
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: drsteelhammer on March 30, 2015, 03:09:30 pm

... you can scratch all the maybe's, mights and decents from this paragraph.

I am surprised of this advise. One hour after releasing its too early to scratch them. How often even good players thought in past, this card is much too strong and will have a huge negative impact on the game while it has not.

This is the first expansion coming out for me since I started playing, so, got any embarrassing stories about people overestimating cards?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 30, 2015, 03:15:55 pm

... you can scratch all the maybe's, mights and decents from this paragraph.

I am surprised of this advise. One hour after releasing its too early to scratch them. How often even good players thought in past, this card is much too strong and will have a huge negative impact on the game while it has not.

This is the first expansion coming out for me since I started playing, so, got any embarrassing stories about people overestimating cards?

People thought Jester would be bonkers? Soothsayer maybe?

I remember more cards that people underestimated rather than the other way around.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 30, 2015, 03:17:56 pm

... you can scratch all the maybe's, mights and decents from this paragraph.

I am surprised of this advise. One hour after releasing its too early to scratch them. How often even good players thought in past, this card is much too strong and will have a huge negative impact on the game while it has not.

This is the first expansion coming out for me since I started playing, so, got any embarrassing stories about people overestimating cards?

People thought Jester would be bonkers? Soothsayer maybe?

I remember more cards that people underestimated rather than the other way around.

Jack of all Trades and Rebuild were both rather severely underestimated when they were first revealed.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Watno on March 30, 2015, 03:18:19 pm
Hunting Party gets progressively worse when stacked (http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/04/21/cornucopia-spoilers-from-the-gathering-initial-thoughts/)
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 30, 2015, 03:18:38 pm
I think everyone thought Merchant Guild would be bigger than it is, maybe.  Or perhaps overestimated the number of games where it would be the preferable strategy.

Though I could be wrong; I don't play rated games so I don't see if it's used in real Dominion that much.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 30, 2015, 03:20:49 pm
I think everyone thought Merchant Guild would be bigger than it is, maybe.  Or perhaps overestimated the number of games where it would be the preferable strategy.

Though I could be wrong; I don't play rated games so I don't see if it's used in real Dominion that much.

I seem to remember everyone saying that Merchant Guild seemed worse than Bridge, and was significantly more expensive to boot. Doesn't seem like an overestimating to me.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 30, 2015, 03:22:33 pm
I think everyone thought Merchant Guild would be bigger than it is, maybe.  Or perhaps overestimated the number of games where it would be the preferable strategy.

Though I could be wrong; I don't play rated games so I don't see if it's used in real Dominion that much.

I seem to remember everyone saying that Merchant Guild seemed worse than Bridge, and was significantly more expensive to boot. Doesn't seem like an overestimating to me.

Hm, maybe you're right.  I had thought that some people said that, but there was a big "no it's better!" dissent. 
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Robz888 on March 30, 2015, 03:24:29 pm
People underestimated Cultist, even after playing with it for weeks.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: SCSN on March 30, 2015, 03:27:56 pm
Hunting Party gets progressively worse when stacked (http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/04/21/cornucopia-spoilers-from-the-gathering-initial-thoughts/)

I've never understood why people make fun of that statement so much because it's trivially true. In your average HP stack the first couple of HPs are super Labs whereas the last few are mere cantrips.

That you want to keep adding Hunting Parties anyway for reliability and because buying HP still beats the next best alternative does not at all mean that your 7th HP is anywhere close to as good as your 2nd.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: markusin on March 30, 2015, 03:33:25 pm
Magpie seems very strong to me. The standard is $4 for +1 card +1 action +$1. If Magpie hits a treasure, you're guaranteed that much plus you cycle one card deeper. If it doesn't, you get more chances to draw cards.

The only downsides I can see are:
- if you get hit by Militia, it makes choosing actions harder.
- if you're playing a +Cards and only have 1 action left, you're probably going to draw lots of Magpies instead of something good.

The first is only a small downside in my opinion, and the second is mitigated by all the Magpies you have - if you have lots of Magpies, you have better chances of sweeping up Treasures into your hand, and therefore are less likely to draw dead cards in your engine.

I don't think it's broken - I would say it's around as good as Ironmonger, and that's a pretty strong bar. Ironmonger doesn't gain more copies of itself, but you can cycle 1 card deeper on every play, revealing an Action makes it less likely you draw cantrips dead, and revealing a Victory is amazing. I think the Action + Victory parts balance out against Magpie's self-gain. The only part that worries me is that 8-10 Magpies enables a lot more engines, and gaining more Magpies is very easy and snowbally, so in games where Magpie is good, there's going to be much more variance.
I think it was Donald that mentioned in the BGG thread that having more Magpies makes it more likely that the Magpies will get in the way and reveal each other. Kind of like how Sage can draw other Sages. Without doing the math, I assume having more Magpies increases the chance that you'll draw with one of them, but by how much depends on the size of your deck and it may not be as dramatic an increase as it appears.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 30, 2015, 03:35:40 pm
Hunting Party gets progressively worse when stacked (http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/04/21/cornucopia-spoilers-from-the-gathering-initial-thoughts/)

I've never understood why people make fun of that statement so much because it's trivially true. In your average HP stack the first couple of HPs are super Labs whereas the last few are mere cantrips.

That you want to keep adding Hunting Parties anyway for reliability and because buying HP still beats the next best alternative does not at all mean that your 7th HP is anywhere close to as good as your 2nd.

I think it's because the wording makes it sound like getting a stack of them is bad.  "Progressively worse" makes it sound like you're doing a bad and more bad thing, not simply diminishing returns.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Awaclus on March 30, 2015, 03:37:17 pm
I think everyone thought Merchant Guild would be bigger than it is, maybe.  Or perhaps overestimated the number of games where it would be the preferable strategy.

Though I could be wrong; I don't play rated games so I don't see if it's used in real Dominion that much.

Merchant Guild is one of the best engine payloads.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 30, 2015, 04:14:59 pm
I remember when I first saw Trader and was like "man, this going to completely break the game"
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: liopoil on March 30, 2015, 04:17:52 pm
Scout is great and all Robz, but these days what the forumers want to hear about is not ridiculously OP cards, but decidedly mediocre ones that are actually fun, in particular, everyone's favorite card, Watchtower. In this post I will answer any questions you may have about just how crazy the interactions these cards have with watchtower.

Lost City is a counter to watchtower-based strategies, of which there are many. Lost city is one of the few attacks that watchtower does not have a defence to. When you gain a lost city, your opponent is forced to draw a card, which makes their watchtower unable to draw as much on their next turn.

Magpie is great with watchtower. Suppose you play a magpie, it reveals an action or victory card, and you have a watchtower and second magpie in hand. Topdeck the gained magpie with watchtower, play your magpie and draw it, reveal the same card, rinse, repeat. In this manner you can gain the rest of the magpies in one turn; only two magpies and a watchtower required. That is true synergy.

Hero looks like a watchtower's dream come true; topdeck the next card in the sequence and play it the next turn, to cycle through the ranks even more quickly! But alas, this is not possible as the next card is merely exchanged, not gained. But don't worry, hero still has neat interactions with watchtower. With sufficient actions, you can play hero, gain a treasure on the deck, then play watchtower and draw one more card than normal due to hero decreasing your handsize. One of the cards you draw will be the treasure that you chose, too.

I look forward to exploring these exciting watchtower interactions with you all.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 30, 2015, 04:28:36 pm
Magpie is great with watchtower. Suppose you play a magpie, it reveals an action or victory card, and you have a watchtower and second magpie in hand. Topdeck the gained magpie with watchtower, play your magpie and draw it, reveal the same card, rinse, repeat. In this manner you can gain the rest of the magpies in one turn; only two magpies and a watchtower required. That is true synergy.

You know, I could actually seriously see doing this in a Vineyard game.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: liopoil on March 30, 2015, 04:32:13 pm
Magpie is great with watchtower. Suppose you play a magpie, it reveals an action or victory card, and you have a watchtower and second magpie in hand. Topdeck the gained magpie with watchtower, play your magpie and draw it, reveal the same card, rinse, repeat. In this manner you can gain the rest of the magpies in one turn; only two magpies and a watchtower required. That is true synergy.

You know, I could actually seriously see doing this in a Vineyard game.
Of course, I was actually serious. Really in any game if you put this together there's no reason not to take all the magpies. It's hard to put together, but totally worth it on occasion.

Also, it has probably been mentioned, but the arrow on Hero points florst.

I played with peasant in Chicago, glad it's still around, but at the time it was absurdly good, so hopefully it's a bit more balanced now.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 30, 2015, 04:35:14 pm
Magpie is great with watchtower. Suppose you play a magpie, it reveals an action or victory card, and you have a watchtower and second magpie in hand. Topdeck the gained magpie with watchtower, play your magpie and draw it, reveal the same card, rinse, repeat. In this manner you can gain the rest of the magpies in one turn; only two magpies and a watchtower required. That is true synergy.

You know, I could actually seriously see doing this in a Vineyard game.

I imagine this would be relatively common in Magpie/Watchtower games. Maybe even in Magpie/draw your deck games. I guess it depends on how badly too many Magpies ruin it for each other.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Burning Skull on March 30, 2015, 04:35:41 pm
I really really like Magpie.
Every time you need high action density (which is pretty often I'd say), this will come in handy.

The only bad thing about amassing that birdies is that they are no good against discarding attacks (in the same way as Pearl Divers are).
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 04:38:49 pm
I really really like Magpie.
Every time you need high action density (which is pretty often I'd say), this will come in handy.

The only bad thing about amassing that birdies is that they are no good against discarding attacks (in the same way as Pearl Divers are).

Well, unlike Pearl Diver, Magpies can increase your hand size. So they can sometimes be good against discard attacks. Not as bad as Pearl Divers anyway.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Burning Skull on March 30, 2015, 05:02:14 pm
I really really like Magpie.
Every time you need high action density (which is pretty often I'd say), this will come in handy.

The only bad thing about amassing that birdies is that they are no good against discarding attacks (in the same way as Pearl Divers are).

Well, unlike Pearl Diver, Magpies can increase your hand size. So they can sometimes be good against discard attacks. Not as bad as Pearl Divers anyway.

Well, if you still have coppers, yes.
Somehow I feel that there are a lot of reasons to go for Magpies even with good copper trashing..
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 30, 2015, 05:03:34 pm
I don't understand why people think Pearl Diver is horrible against discard attacks.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 05:07:35 pm
I don't understand why people think Pearl Diver is horrible against discard attacks.

It's not horrible, but I think it can be a liability. One Pearl Diver is basically a random card from the top of your deck. It's harder to make an informed decision about what to discard when some of the cards in your hand are basically unknown quantities.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 30, 2015, 05:22:26 pm
I don't understand why people think Pearl Diver is horrible against discard attacks.

It's not horrible, but I think it can be a liability. One Pearl Diver is basically a random card from the top of your deck. It's harder to make an informed decision about what to discard when some of the cards in your hand are basically unknown quantities.
If you have cards better than Pearl Diver, you discard Pearl Diver, and then you can end up drawing whatever crummy cards are on top of your deck. Sure that's bad. Alternatively, if you have bad cards, you hold on to Pearl Diver - well, it didn't make a difference. But my point here is that just as the first situation I described can hurt you, having the Pearl Divers can help you - you are just as likely to have the crummy cards in hand to start, and now because there are Pearl Divers, huzzah, I am doing better. It all washes out entirely.

The only way it really hurts you in net is for situations where you have terminal-draw, and you WOULD have also had Village. Even here, there are some alternative cases which mitigate the downside, and at the end of the day, you don't have to dead draw. The biggest point is that this difference is really really small. And it's not at all clear that THAT is actually bigger than the benefit you get from sometimes saving a good card from the bottom of your deck (which isn't huge but really can be substantial).

Can it potentially harm you? Sure. Is that enough that it should make you not want to buy Pearl Diver when you otherwise would? Almost never.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: swedenman on March 30, 2015, 05:34:21 pm
Magpie looks extremely powerful. At first glance it looks like the money-equivalent of Herald, but since you start with 7 Treasure cards it seems like it would be much better early. It also seems excellent in engines because it can clear out treasures that might otherwise clog your deck, though in super-thin treasureless decks I imagine it's pretty useless. As a cantrip it's rarely incredibly dangerous to have in your deck, though, so it may still be useful early on even if it may eventually become useless once your deck has been trashed down. Either way, I think Magpie is going to be a very popular opener, but we'll see.

I'm not sure about Lost City. I like the concept, but it's hard to say how it will play. It obviously invites comparison to the other cards that let your opponent draw (Soothsayer, Council Room, and maybe Governor; I think that's all?). In general, you buy these cards when you need them, largely regardless of how much the draw helps your opponent. Obviously, they encourage finding a method to counter the draw (discard attacks, Possession) as well as looking for other ways to construct an engine, but at the end of the day, if you need a Council Room for draw, you get the Council Room. Lost City may behave similarly (you get it when you need a village and handsize increasers and there's no safer way to get it), but there is one key difference: your opponent gets the benefit before you. Increasing your opponents handsize by 1 hurts, but it's severely offset if you're also drawing 4 cards this turn. With Lost City, you're giving your opponent an advantage on his next turn while giving yourself no benefit until your Lost City comes up next shuffle. However, you get the benefit of Lost City throughout the game while your opponent only enjoys the benefit for one turn (though keep in mind that early turns are often the most important). For that reason, I see Lost City benefiting from long games. Also, it goes without saying that you should not fall into the same traps that many players do with Cities. If you have very few terminal actions and your Lost Cities are just Labs with an on-gain penalty, then you're probably using them wrong. Overall I really like Lost City; I think it'll be fun to see how good it turns out to be.

I really don't know much about Hero. It seems pretty good on-play, but deciding just how good it is will depend on how good the other cards in the Traveller sequence are (I'm assuming the Traveller card type just refers to the cards in that sequence). Presumably the Warrior card is incredibly powerful (it's a neat mechanic, so I assume Donald would do it justice), so I think there's a good chance that these cards are going to be worth pursuing. I am curious why it costs $5, though. Obviously it makes a difference with TfB and other cost-caring cards, but in the case of Spoils, Prizes, and such, they didn't seem to care, so I'm wondering if there's some other reason Donald wanted it to cost $5. Oh well. Looks interesting, anyhow.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: liopoil on March 30, 2015, 05:35:33 pm
You know, I think something as simple as magpie with a simple +buy card and money would beat pretty much every big money strategy if magpies are uncontested. You have 10 semi-reliable labs, only a couple of which you bought, along with a few silvers/golds by like turn 12 or something, and will actually start having double province turns. This makes most magpie games engine games, which means that the magpie pile runs super fast and the split is pretty important and unfortunately, as far as I can tell, mostly luck-based. I guess if you lose the split then you probably hit more treasures and so have a lead somewhere else.

Lost city seems pretty weak. I like that it has city in the name though. I think it will be most common where there is an engine but lost city is the only village. If lost city is the only draw it will be hard to get it to work, and if it isn't the only draw then you should probably get the other draw.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: TheOthin on March 30, 2015, 05:39:53 pm
Where are you getting so many more Magpies if they're actually hitting coins and drawing?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 30, 2015, 05:42:05 pm
I assume that Hero costing 5, while it does have some interactions with cost-caring a la t4b, swindler, etc., is probably more to do with helping you remember the sequence? Or making it look nicer, what have you. We know the cheapest card in the sequence costs 2. I would hazard a guess that the costs of the cards go 2-3-4-5-6.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: liopoil on March 30, 2015, 05:43:14 pm
Where are you getting so many more Magpies if they're actually hitting coins and drawing?
You buy probably two magpies, and your +buy card. They will hit treasures sometimes, but you will get enough magpies to be playing enough magpies to get all the magpies. Then you will be getting lots of treasures so they will only get better. Sure, the magpies will hit treasures when you want more magpies, and actions/victories when you want more treasure sometimes, but it will be alright.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 30, 2015, 05:43:40 pm
I assume that Hero costing 5, while it does have some interactions with cost-caring a la t4b, swindler, etc., is probably more to do with helping you remember the sequence? Or making it look nicer, what have you. We know the cheapest card in the sequence costs 2. I would hazard a guess that the costs of the cards go 2-3-4-5-6.

Also, Union regulations.  Hero has to get paid more than a Warrior.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: liopoil on March 30, 2015, 05:44:56 pm
I would hazard a guess that the costs of the cards go 2-3-4-5-6.
I like this. It seems very likely. Though hero would not be fairly costed at 5 by any means, 5* is much more balanced.

When page or peasant are upgraded, are they trashed or returned to the supply?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 30, 2015, 05:47:56 pm
I would hazard a guess that the costs of the cards go 2-3-4-5-6.
I like this. It seems very likely. Though hero would not be fairly costed at 5 by any means, 5* is much more balanced.

When page or peasant are upgraded, are they trashed or returned to the supply?

Are you sure it wouldn't be fairly costed at 5? Compare to Explorer - sure this is a bit better usually, but Explorer isn't a World-beater or anything. I guess it is probably too good, but I don't think it's crazy - well, not without platinum anyway.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 30, 2015, 05:48:21 pm
Lost city seems pretty weak. I like that it has city in the name though. I think it will be most common where there is an engine but lost city is the only village. If lost city is the only draw it will be hard to get it to work, and if it isn't the only draw then you should probably get the other draw.

From my games with it (and they weren't that many), it seemed pretty strong; the on-gain penalty doesn't seem to matter all that much in the course of the game.  I think Lost City is strongest when it is *both* the only village and the only draw, so long as there is good payload, like Goons or Bridge or what have you.  If you only had Villages/Goons, you might not be able to pull it off, but the handsize increasing of LC is not something you can dismiss easily.  LC/Goons: I drew all my Goons, and played all of them, and now I don't care whether you draw a card when I buy another LC and gain 5 VP.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: liopoil on March 30, 2015, 05:53:34 pm
I would hazard a guess that the costs of the cards go 2-3-4-5-6.
I like this. It seems very likely. Though hero would not be fairly costed at 5 by any means, 5* is much more balanced.

When page or peasant are upgraded, are they trashed or returned to the supply?

Are you sure it wouldn't be fairly costed at 5? Compare to Explorer - sure this is a bit better usually, but Explorer isn't a World-beater or anything. I guess it is probably too good, but I don't think it's crazy - well, not without platinum anyway.
Hmm, fair point. I guess I was just a bit hyped up by the idea of gaining ANY treasure. I thought it was on the same level as, say, the prizes, which are really hard to balance at a price point.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Donald X. on March 30, 2015, 05:57:33 pm
I assume that Hero costing 5, while it does have some interactions with cost-caring a la t4b, swindler, etc., is probably more to do with helping you remember the sequence? Or making it look nicer, what have you. We know the cheapest card in the sequence costs 2. I would hazard a guess that the costs of the cards go 2-3-4-5-6.
They do go 2-3-4-5-6, and yes a big part of that is that it helps make it all clear, the 3 goes to the 4.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 30, 2015, 05:58:04 pm
I don't remember this (or the related) ruling.  Does "Gain a <Type>" mean from supply only?  So in particular, can you gain Diadem/Spoils with Hero?  (I don't know why you're trying to gain Spoils instead of Gold.)
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: TheOthin on March 30, 2015, 05:58:16 pm
Hmm. If you're getting Gold with it, then maybe the best comparison is Soothsayer, which also gets you Gold but also hands out Curses. Even with letting your opponents draw, it's hard to imagine that the Attack component of Soothsayer is worse than +$2.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Donald X. on March 30, 2015, 05:58:51 pm
I don't remember this (or the related) ruling.  Does "Gain a <Type>" mean from supply only?  So in particular, can you gain Diadem/Spoils with Hero?  (I don't know why you're trying to gain Spoils instead of Gold.)
All gains are from the Supply only unless otherwise specified. This is why you have "Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile."
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 30, 2015, 06:01:25 pm
Hmm. If you're getting Gold with it, then maybe the best comparison is Soothsayer, which also gets you Gold but also hands out Curses. Even with letting your opponents draw, it's hard to imagine that the Attack component of Soothsayer is worse than +$2.

Soothsayer can't gain Harems.  Or Banks.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: liopoil on March 30, 2015, 06:02:20 pm
Hmm. If you're getting Gold with it, then maybe the best comparison is Soothsayer, which also gets you Gold but also hands out Curses. Even with letting your opponents draw, it's hard to imagine that the Attack component of Soothsayer is worse than +$2.
Really? I find the attack of soothsayer to be quite weak, but that's just me. I rarely get soothsayer, my opponents rarely don't get soothsayer. Sometimes I win, sometimes I don't. Maybe I should go look up my stats.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 30, 2015, 06:03:18 pm
Oh, hey, theme synnergy: Hero gains Treasure; Adventurer searches for Treasure.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: TheOthin on March 30, 2015, 06:03:34 pm
Hmm. If you're getting Gold with it, then maybe the best comparison is Soothsayer, which also gets you Gold but also hands out Curses. Even with letting your opponents draw, it's hard to imagine that the Attack component of Soothsayer is worse than +$2.

Soothsayer can't gain Harems.  Or Banks.

Neither can Hero if you're getting Gold with it.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Willvon on March 30, 2015, 06:04:08 pm

There are 5 cards in each pile you upgrade into (the top two aren't Travellers, since they don't upgrade). They return to the piles, so that tends to be enough. Sometimes it isn't in multiplayer if everyone wants multiples right away.

You exchange by putting Hero back in the Hero pile, and taking a Champion. You can't exchange if the pile you're upgrading into is empty.

Does that mean that if you are playing a game with Pages, there are 10 pages, and 4 additional piles of 5 cards each? So in a really complicated game you could end up with at least 11 non-supply piles (Spoils, Madmen, Mercenaries, 6 Travelers, Champions, Teachers)?

Don't forget Prizes! And the Black Market deck, I guess.

And if you add Ruins, Potions, Platinums, Colonies, and a Bane, you look for another table to play your cards.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 30, 2015, 06:12:38 pm
I assume that Hero costing 5, while it does have some interactions with cost-caring a la t4b, swindler, etc., is probably more to do with helping you remember the sequence? Or making it look nicer, what have you. We know the cheapest card in the sequence costs 2. I would hazard a guess that the costs of the cards go 2-3-4-5-6.
They do go 2-3-4-5-6, and yes a big part of that is that it helps make it all clear, the 3 goes to the 4.

I remember thinking about that at the meetup when we were asked for feedback. I was like "maybe the cards should have a number or something for a quick reference for their order," then I remembered the cost thing and was like "oh, that's clever."
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: -Stef- on March 30, 2015, 06:16:58 pm
I think if you restrict Hero to everything above the line it would be perfectly fine at $5. The ability to exchange it for a Champion however is hard to judge but probably means it shouldn't cost $5.

Magpie: I don't remember ever not wanting to open with it. I don't think it's bad for dominion because after that it can still go down in many different ways, but I think it's just really really strong. It can definitely work in engines and can also definitely work in BogMoney strategies.
disclaimer: I have some experience with it from playtesting but certainly not enough, so a lot of this is just my intuition:
I think I would open Ambassador/Magpie over Ambassador/{Tournament/Ironmonger/Wandering Minstrel/Walled Village}.
(and if I still think so in 3 months from now that should say enough about the power level of magpie)
I think I would open Steward/Magpie over Steward/{Tournament/Ironmonger/Wandering Minstrel}
I don't think Magpie/Silver is a great opening, because you don't want to decrease the chance of your first Magpie "missing" and gaining another Magpie


Lost City: I still find it difficult to understand how bad the on-gain penalty actually is, and how to compare it to say councilroom. But the comparison to Ill Gotten Gains springs to mind.
That is definitely not a weak curser, even though it works only once on-gain.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: liopoil on March 30, 2015, 06:20:15 pm
Total cards accounted for:

30 kingdom cards --> 300
2 piles with 12 cards --> 4
Travelers ---> 40 (2 series of 4 piles of 5 cards each)
Randomizers: 30
Total: 374 cards

However, there are 400 cards in this expansion. 26 cards still unaccounted for.

The teasers suggested to me at least that the only large kingdom piles are the 12 card piles. So most likely the remaining 26 cards are the events. 25 is a nice round number, so lets say 25 events and a blank or randomizer. I guess events could be kingdom cards, and the other cards a new pile like colony or potion, but that seems unlikely. Hey, the events could make something like a black market deck, that would be cool.

EDIT: Fixed things because I was wrong, thanks LastFootnote.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 06:22:07 pm
There are 400 cards in the set, dude. And only 30 Kingdom cards.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: GendoIkari on March 30, 2015, 06:22:50 pm
Hmm. If you're getting Gold with it, then maybe the best comparison is Soothsayer, which also gets you Gold but also hands out Curses. Even with letting your opponents draw, it's hard to imagine that the Attack component of Soothsayer is worse than +$2.

Soothsayer can't gain Harems.  Or Banks.

Neither can Hero if you're getting Gold with it.

Edge case: Throne Room.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: liopoil on March 30, 2015, 06:22:59 pm
There are 400 cards in the set, dude. And only 30 Kingdom cards.
Oh, whoops. I got ahead of myself. Darn. Not sure where I got that idea from then. Editing my post now.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: crlundy on March 30, 2015, 06:23:20 pm
Lost city seems pretty weak.

From my games with it (and they weren't that many), it seemed pretty strong; the on-gain penalty doesn't seem to matter all that much in the course of the game.  I think Lost City is strongest when it is *both* the only village and the only draw, so long as there is good payload, like Goons or Bridge or what have you.
Well, I haven't played with Lost City, but I love me a City with 1 pile empty. The penalty only happens once so, hey, suffer through it then enjoy the engine enabling.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: AdamH on March 30, 2015, 07:10:29 pm
Magpie == Bacon Cheeseburger, for the curious.

Not a fan?

I think Magpie is a low-skill card, and I tend not to like those.

But Champion, it's not my favorite card right now but eventually I'll come around and love it just like everybody else.  :)
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: -Stef- on March 30, 2015, 07:17:16 pm
I think Magpie is a low-skill card, and I tend not to like those.

Woohoo! Adam has turned around! From now on we can share the love for Black Market and Knights.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: CG19 on March 30, 2015, 07:26:14 pm
Black Market and Knights FTW!!!

Just kidding, I'm in the same boat as Adam. But they pale in comparison to my dislike for Rebuild.

I'm excited to use Lost City in engines. I always thought Inn was great, but I wanted it to increase my hand size. So since they are the same price, we essentially have: Discard 2 cards (-) & shuffle in actions (+) = Opponent draws card on gain (-). Should be fun!

Magpie's look like they could be fun. Then again, I'm a fan of cards that can mas-gain value into your deck. But I can definitely seeing them being powerful on boards and then losing the split because of luck.

Quote
There are just ten Magpies in the pile; they’re not Rats with wings.

That made me laugh. +1 DXV

Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 30, 2015, 07:28:37 pm
Magpie == Bacon Cheeseburger, for the curious.

Not a fan?

I think Magpie is a low-skill card, and I tend not to like those.

But Champion, it's not my favorite card right now but eventually I'll come around and love it just like everybody else.  :)

Eh.  Color me in Teacher's camp.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: jsh357 on March 30, 2015, 07:31:14 pm
I am still not the hugest fan of Champion myself, but I don't dislike it like I do Rebuild/Urchin.

Not that this discussion is of much value to most people here.  Or anyone!
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Archetype on March 30, 2015, 08:00:19 pm
My biggest worry with magpie is that it's pile will run out really early.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on March 30, 2015, 08:36:44 pm
My biggest worry with magpie is that it's pile will run out really early.

It's a pile that will (often) run out really early.

EDIT: Well, pretty early. Really early in a 4-player game where everybody buys it.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: tastor on March 30, 2015, 08:43:19 pm
The teasers suggested to me at least that the only large kingdom piles are the 12 card piles. So most likely the remaining 26 cards are the events. 25 is a nice round number, so lets say 25 events and a blank or randomizer.

The official description on Rio Grande's site says 20 events, the last 6 are probably blanks to round up to 400 for printing reasons.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: popsofctown on March 30, 2015, 10:28:51 pm
Magpie seems like it should cost 2$ by the "Chapel logic".

It doesn't seem like DXV ever used "Chapel logic" again for any card, except Fool's Gold like sorta, but I'm not sure Fool's Gold counts.  It seems like maybe it's not a concept he's stood by.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: AJD on March 30, 2015, 10:39:51 pm
Magpie seems like it should cost 2$ by the "Chapel logic".

How do you mean?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: GendoIkari on March 30, 2015, 10:47:25 pm
Magpie seems like it should cost 2$ by the "Chapel logic".

It doesn't seem like DXV ever used "Chapel logic" again for any card, except Fool's Gold like sorta, but I'm not sure Fool's Gold counts.  It seems like maybe it's not a concept he's stood by.

No... there's 2 parts of Chapel logic, and Magpie only meets one. Chapel can cost 2 because it's extremely rare that you would want to buy multiples. With $6 and 4 buys, you don't want 3 Chapels. But you WOULD sometimes, possibly often, to buy 3 Magpies.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: TheOthin on March 30, 2015, 10:51:53 pm
In a standard opening scenario where each player gets either 4/3 or 5/2, both players can pick up a $4 card on their higher buy if they want it, and both players can pick up a $2 on either their higher, lower, or both buys if they want it.

It's $3 and $5 where things start varying, as a 5/2 split can only buy one $3 but could buy a $5.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Donald X. on March 30, 2015, 10:59:21 pm
I am still not the hugest fan of Champion myself, but I don't dislike it like I do Rebuild/Urchin.

Not that this discussion is of much value to most people here.  Or anyone!
Yes! It would be great if you people who know about non-spoiled non-released cards would completely stop talking about them.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: popsofctown on March 30, 2015, 11:07:01 pm
Magpie seems like it should cost 2$ by the "Chapel logic".

It doesn't seem like DXV ever used "Chapel logic" again for any card, except Fool's Gold like sorta, but I'm not sure Fool's Gold counts.  It seems like maybe it's not a concept he's stood by.

No... there's 2 parts of Chapel logic, and Magpie only meets one. Chapel can cost 2 because it's extremely rare that you would want to buy multiples. With $6 and 4 buys, you don't want 3 Chapels. But you WOULD sometimes, possibly often, to buy 3 Magpies.
I see the second part as being "It's not gamebreaking to let people buy multiples."  2$ Chapel is ok because using plus +buy to get three in one turn doesn't ruin the game.  Magpie's the same, if someone buys three Magpies in one turn that's not tantamount to winning the game or anything.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 30, 2015, 11:09:49 pm
Magpie seems like it should cost 2$ by the "Chapel logic".

It doesn't seem like DXV ever used "Chapel logic" again for any card, except Fool's Gold like sorta, but I'm not sure Fool's Gold counts.  It seems like maybe it's not a concept he's stood by.

No... there's 2 parts of Chapel logic, and Magpie only meets one. Chapel can cost 2 because it's extremely rare that you would want to buy multiples. With $6 and 4 buys, you don't want 3 Chapels. But you WOULD sometimes, possibly often, to buy 3 Magpies.
I see the second part as being "It's not gamebreaking to let people buy multiples."  2$ Chapel is ok because using plus +buy to get three in one turn doesn't ruin the game.  Magpie's the same, if someone buys three Magpies in one turn that's not tantamount to winning the game or anything.

But that would diminish Magpie's self-gaining.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Donald X. on March 30, 2015, 11:10:24 pm
Magpie seems like it should cost 2$ by the "Chapel logic".

It doesn't seem like DXV ever used "Chapel logic" again for any card, except Fool's Gold like sorta, but I'm not sure Fool's Gold counts.  It seems like maybe it's not a concept he's stood by.
I stand by the reasoning behind Chapel costing $2. And that seems to have all worked out too.

I see reasons to charge $4 for Magpie and do not see reasons to charge $2 for it. It's not really something I should try to argue out here.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Arctic Penguin on March 30, 2015, 11:49:03 pm
I could be way off, but it seems like there are times you might want to get lots of Magpies early when you have a high density of treasures and they more often function as labs (or at least gain you a $4 cantrip). Then later in the game in decks where you have gotten rid of most of your treasures and the Magpie pile is empty, they are basically just cantrips and you can use Trash for Benefit cards on them like Rats (without the extra on-trash effect). This works much better when Magpie costs $4 rather than $2, which seems like the same argument for making Rats $4.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: pezheadsilike on March 31, 2015, 12:17:14 am
I CANNOT wait for this set to come out. I have loved every dominion set so far. The new cards look awesome. I like the idea of the Page/Champion and Peasant/Teacher cards :) It's funny because when I read there was a victory point card that started at zero, I thought Donald was going to make the upgrading system for them. Start with a VP card that is zero and exchange it for a higher level one turn after turn. Anyway, I am pumped for this set. Can't wait for more previews too!
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 31, 2015, 12:38:09 am
Okay, I found this really funny

Gain Province if CoinValueOf(Deck) > 15;
Gain Duchy if CountOf(Province, Supply) <= 2;
Gain Laboratory;
Gain Gold;
Gain Magpie if CountOf(Magpie, Deck) < 1;
Play Magpie;
Play Laboratory;
Gain Woodcutter if CountOf(Woodcutter, Deck) < 1;
Gain Silver;

With that line in red, this beats basic BM 75/25.  Without it, it loses 4/96.  Payload is important.

This, again, is using Chris' simulator.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: pubby on March 31, 2015, 12:46:57 am
Can you post the logs of the games? Those results seem funny (and I'm guessing 4/96 is a typo).
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 31, 2015, 12:50:02 am
Can you post the logs of the games? Those results seem funny (and I'm guessing 4/96 is a typo).

It is not a typo - it's a ratio of percentage of games won by each side.  And you can run them yourself - it's a simulator - check out the simulation subforum for Chris' thread.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: pubby on March 31, 2015, 12:51:23 am
I don't have access to a Windows computer.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 31, 2015, 12:51:55 am
I don't have access to a Windows computer.

Ah.  That would make things problematic.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: JW on March 31, 2015, 01:25:12 am
Okay, I found this really funny

Gain Province if CoinValueOf(Deck) > 15;
Gain Duchy if CountOf(Province, Supply) <= 2;
Gain Laboratory;
Gain Gold;
Gain Magpie if CountOf(Magpie, Deck) < 1;
Play Magpie;
Play Laboratory;
Gain Woodcutter if CountOf(Woodcutter, Deck) < 1;

Don't wait to buy golds until you have all the labs. That's why this loses so horribly without woodcutter.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: brokoli on March 31, 2015, 05:10:23 am
Magpie: I don't remember ever not wanting to open with it. I don't think it's bad for dominion because after that it can still go down in many different ways, but I think it's just really really strong.
You mean, the way Fishing village is ?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Mole5000 on March 31, 2015, 05:49:52 am
This is the first expansion coming out for me since I started playing, so, got any embarrassing stories about people overestimating cards?

People thought Jester would be bonkers?

that's the one I remember and I was totally part of that hype tain - first few games I played with Jester I bought it and played it and thought "WHY AM I NOT WINNING???"
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: liopoil on March 31, 2015, 07:31:58 am
Yeah, gold > lab for sure. Then try it against smithy BM or something. And yeah, a +buy is essential. Also, should get a second magpie and should get silvers after woodcutter.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on March 31, 2015, 08:21:46 am
Yeah, gold > lab for sure. Then try it against smithy BM or something. And yeah, a +buy is essential. Also, should get a second magpie and should get silvers after woodcutter.

I tried a couple different ways of getting a Gold after a couple Labs, but they all seemed to not do as well as just going for the pile.  :/  And it does gain Silvers after Woodcutters, it just got cut off in the quote.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: GendoIkari on March 31, 2015, 09:12:56 am

Looking forward to what I assume will be theory's preview later today.

I'm obviously out of the loop somewhere here.... has there been some discussion on the fact that a 4th card will be previewed each day, in addition to Donald's 3? I assume Donald gave permission for this or something? I saw WW's preview and was really confused. Can someone link to the original discussion on this? Thanks!
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: jsh357 on March 31, 2015, 09:16:20 am
Here's the new original discussion: There will be a fourth card previewed every day.

Re: complexity, complexity is what you make it.  I think new players can play with the Adventures cards just fine.  They might not see the same possibilities as the rest of us, but I wouldn't say the expansion is too complicated for new players.  Most people who play board games are smart; they can handle it.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Watno on March 31, 2015, 09:18:10 am
But wait, there's more! dominionstrategy.com [wait that's here] is also going to have a preview each day this week - single card previews, a different previewer each time. The set has 58 uh things; even at 4 a day, it will be below average for what % of it was previewed. No doubt these other previews will be crossposted here, just as these are crossposted there. I am mentioning them here anyway.

Theory sai yesterday what time the preview would be at, but Donald posted earlier, so I assumed we would get the extra preview from theory.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Voltaire on March 31, 2015, 12:07:09 pm
I'm obviously out of the loop somewhere here.... has there been some discussion on the fact that a 4th card will be previewed each day, in addition to Donald's 3? I assume Donald gave permission for this or something? I saw WW's preview and was really confused. Can someone link to the original discussion on this? Thanks!

This is the extent of the original discussion.

But wait, there's more! dominionstrategy.com [wait that's here] is also going to have a preview each day this week - single card previews, a different previewer each time. The set has 58 uh things; even at 4 a day, it will be below average for what % of it was previewed. No doubt these other previews will be crossposted here, just as these are crossposted there. I am mentioning them here anyway.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: liopoil on March 31, 2015, 03:20:46 pm
Yeah, gold > lab for sure. Then try it against smithy BM or something. And yeah, a +buy is essential. Also, should get a second magpie and should get silvers after woodcutter.
I tried a couple different ways of getting a Gold after a couple Labs, but they all seemed to not do as well as just going for the pile.  :/  And it does gain Silvers after Woodcutters, it just got cut off in the quote.
No, just always get gold on 6, lab on 5.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: AdamH on March 31, 2015, 03:28:10 pm
I think Magpie is a low-skill card, and I tend not to like those.

Woohoo! Adam has turned around! From now on we can share the love for Black Market and Knights.

There is no way that Black Market is a high-skill card, especially if it causes the best people in the world to play strategies that lose to Big Money.  :P
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 31, 2015, 03:32:22 pm
I think Magpie is a low-skill card, and I tend not to like those.

Woohoo! Adam has turned around! From now on we can share the love for Black Market and Knights.

There is no way that Black Market is a high-skill card, especially if it causes the best people in the world to play strategies that lose to Big Money.  :P

"What, you bought all the Provinces?  But I still haven't gotten everything I want from the Black Market deck!"
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: SCSN on March 31, 2015, 03:51:47 pm
I think Magpie is a low-skill card, and I tend not to like those.

Woohoo! Adam has turned around! From now on we can share the love for Black Market and Knights.

There is no way that Black Market is a high-skill card, especially if it causes the best people in the world to play strategies that lose to Big Money.  :P

You actually believe that? I always assumed you were joking...

If not you're either way overestimating Big Money or underestimating how powerful exclusive access to the BM deck is, where you are guaranteed to get to and can thus plan for whatever cards you want.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 31, 2015, 04:00:48 pm
I think Magpie is a low-skill card, and I tend not to like those.

Woohoo! Adam has turned around! From now on we can share the love for Black Market and Knights.

There is no way that Black Market is a high-skill card, especially if it causes the best people in the world to play strategies that lose to Big Money.  :P

You actually believe that? I always assumed you were joking...

If not you're either way overestimating Big Money or underestimating how powerful exclusive access to the BM deck is, where you are guaranteed to get to and can thus plan for whatever cards you want.

Is the contents of the Black Market deck public knowledge before the game starts?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: TheOthin on March 31, 2015, 04:03:00 pm
I think Magpie is a low-skill card, and I tend not to like those.

Woohoo! Adam has turned around! From now on we can share the love for Black Market and Knights.

There is no way that Black Market is a high-skill card, especially if it causes the best people in the world to play strategies that lose to Big Money.  :P

You actually believe that? I always assumed you were joking...

If not you're either way overestimating Big Money or underestimating how powerful exclusive access to the BM deck is, where you are guaranteed to get to and can thus plan for whatever cards you want.

Is the contents of the Black Market deck public knowledge before the game starts?

Yes. In person, you can see the cards being picked; online, it's listed in the log.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Witherweaver on March 31, 2015, 04:04:11 pm
I never noticed that before. 
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: crlundy on March 31, 2015, 04:09:11 pm
You can also click the "View cards" button and click past the page of Kingdom cards. It can be difficult to scroll to the top of the log in Salvager.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: AdamH on March 31, 2015, 04:21:41 pm
Sorry for the terrible quote but I'm on my phone and I can't be bothered to fix it.  :P

Quote from: SheCantSayNo link=topic=12852.msg477216#msg477216

You actually believe that? I always assumed you were joking...

If not you're either way overestimating Big Money or underestimating how powerful exclusive access to the BM deck is, where you are guaranteed to get to and can thus plan for whatever cards you want.

There was a tonguey face, so there's that.

But every time I've said on a particular game that I think big money is better, I believed it and I still do. I'm not claiming that I'm very good at black market games but if I'm not confident I won't say anything.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: eHalcyon on March 31, 2015, 06:09:09 pm
Cross-posting!  This time to the correct preview thread.  ::)

And now for another Page out of the song book...

Where have all the Warriors gone
And where is all the Gold?
Where's that lady Traveller now
Her story still untold?
Isn't there a Madame Knight upon a Trusty Steed?
Late at night I toss and I turn and I dream of what I need

I need a Hero
I'm holding out for a Hero 'til the shuffle is right
She's gotta be strong
Well she's not very fast
But she'll gain me some Platinum might
I need a Hero
I'm holding out for a Hero in this Big Money fight
I'm totally sure
That I'm drawing her soon
And the gain will be larger than life

...

And she's travelling on and on and on and on

This is the Champion, my friends
And she'll keep on fighting 'til the end
She is the Champion!
She is the Champion!
No time for losers
'Cause she is the Champion of the world
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: enfynet on March 31, 2015, 07:23:25 pm
Cross-posting!  This time to the correct preview thread.  ::)

And now for another Page out of the song book...

Where have all the Warriors gone
And where is all the Gold?
Where's that lady Traveller now
Her story still untold?
Isn't there a Madame Knight upon a Trusty Steed?
Late at night I toss and I turn and I dream of what I need

I need a Hero
I'm holding out for a Hero 'til the shuffle is right
She's gotta be strong
Well she's not very fast
But she'll gain me some Platinum might
I need a Hero
I'm holding out for a Hero in this Big Money fight
I'm totally sure
That I'm drawing her soon
And the gain will be larger than life

...

And she's travelling on and on and on and on

This is the Champion, my friends
And she'll keep on fighting 'til the end
She is the Champion!
She is the Champion!
No time for losers
'Cause she is the Champion of the world

I hate you.  :o
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: SCSN on April 01, 2015, 07:19:39 pm
I got bored with my old avatar and loved the art of Magpie; my insincere apologies to those who don't like to see their world shaken up!
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: jonts26 on April 01, 2015, 07:44:05 pm
I got bored with my old avatar and loved the art of Magpie; my insincere apologies to those who don't like to see their world shaken up!

Does that mean this avatar is available?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: jsh357 on April 01, 2015, 07:45:10 pm
I got bored with my old avatar and loved the art of Magpie; my insincere apologies to those who don't like to see their world shaken up!

Does that mean this avatar is available?

In our community, you have to register as an avatar holder and go around to everyone's doors to tell them you're taking it. 
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: eHalcyon on April 01, 2015, 07:46:46 pm
I got bored with my old avatar and loved the art of Magpie; my insincere apologies to those who don't like to see their world shaken up!

Does that mean this avatar is available?

Resisting urge to switch to Courtyard...
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: SCSN on April 01, 2015, 07:55:09 pm
I got bored with my old avatar and loved the art of Magpie; my insincere apologies to those who don't like to see their world shaken up!

Does that mean this avatar is available?

If you're the type to wear second-hand clothes, sure, take it!
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: jonts26 on April 01, 2015, 07:55:46 pm
I got bored with my old avatar and loved the art of Magpie; my insincere apologies to those who don't like to see their world shaken up!

Does that mean this avatar is available?

Resisting urge to switch to Courtyard...

And then the candle avatar is all mine. Everything is going according to plan.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: SheCanSayNo on April 01, 2015, 08:19:10 pm
I got bored with my old avatar and loved the art of Magpie; my insincere apologies to those who don't like to see their world shaken up!

Does that mean this avatar is available?

Nope! I called it in the avatar thread.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12672.msg469301#msg469301

Finally SheCantSayNo will no longer usurp my rightful avatar!
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on April 01, 2015, 09:00:19 pm
And I'm the one who has to update the avatar thread.  :P
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Grujah on April 01, 2015, 10:52:11 pm
Also, whenever I see Magpie, I think of this:
(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=129764&type=card)

And I highly dislike Thiving Magpie :s
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: jaybeez on April 02, 2015, 01:05:39 am
Well, he answered half of my question (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9784.0).

I also just realized that the on-gain penalty is pretty brilliant: you can use a discard attack to counter the effect but if you're able to gain a Lost City in your action phase with a discard attack in hand and at least one action to spare, your deck is probably already doing what Lost City does, and the benefit of gaining it will be more marginal.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: jonts26 on April 02, 2015, 10:50:35 am
And I'm the one who has to update the avatar thread.  :P

You're gonna have to change it back now. I missed my courtyard.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on April 02, 2015, 10:59:03 am
And I'm the one who has to update the avatar thread.  :P

You're gonna have to change it back now. I missed my courtyard.

Thank goodness. I kept being confused at how SheCantSayNo's personality had changed completely.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: jonts26 on April 02, 2015, 11:26:30 am
And I'm the one who has to update the avatar thread.  :P

You're gonna have to change it back now. I missed my courtyard.

Thank goodness. I kept being confused at how SheCantSayNo's personality had changed completely.

For my next trick I'm going to SCSN's password and start posting from that account.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: pacovf on April 06, 2015, 05:29:42 am
I think people are overvaluing Magpie. It looks like the deck where it's really going to shine is BM without terminal draw. It's just not going to be a high impact card in any other deck, IMHO. Something nice to have for sure, but not the card that is going to win the game for you. You might need to get one anyway just to avoid the other playing snatching all 10 for free.

The good thing about this opinion is that, if I am wrong, nobody will remember. If I am right, I get massive bragging rights because the high-ranked players think otherwise!  ;D

Oh, and:

A non-supply card that doesn't cost 0. Inconceivable!

Has already existed since Dark Ages.

A "(This is not in the Supply.)" card that doesn't cost 0. Inconceivable!
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: shmeur on April 06, 2015, 05:35:20 am
I feel that Magpie is kind of a Vagrant+Rats hybrid.  Though personally I'd rather use it as a TfB card than a treasure hunting card.  Free magpies + Forge/Salvager/Apprentice.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: LastFootnote on April 06, 2015, 07:47:43 am
Magpie is fantastic when you want a lot of copies of one card for some reason.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: enfynet on April 06, 2015, 09:43:16 am
Magpie/Spy can sort of become the BM version of Scrying Pool.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on April 06, 2015, 09:49:29 am
Magpie/Spy can sort of become the BM version of Scrying Pool.

Would have to be Magpie/Scout; Spy doesn't look ahead far enough.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: werothegreat on April 14, 2015, 06:19:26 pm
Does the Scheme trick work here?  For example, if I choose Hero with Scheme, then choose to resolve Scheme's effect first, putting Hero on top of my deck, Hero has now lost track of itself and can't return to the Hero pile.  Do I still get a Champion?
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Watno on April 14, 2015, 06:20:10 pm
I'm pretty sure echanging can't be partially executed.
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: Donald X. on April 14, 2015, 06:21:22 pm
Does the Scheme trick work here?  For example, if I choose Hero with Scheme, then choose to resolve Scheme's effect first, putting Hero on top of my deck, Hero has now lost track of itself and can't return to the Hero pile.  Do I still get a Champion?
You don't; exchanging requires both cards to be available to exchange. Rulebook Saturday!
Title: Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
Post by: enfynet on April 14, 2015, 06:27:25 pm
Does the Scheme trick work here?  For example, if I choose Hero with Scheme, then choose to resolve Scheme's effect first, putting Hero on top of my deck, Hero has now lost track of itself and can't return to the Hero pile.  Do I still get a Champion?
That's interesting. Assuming "exchange" has a specific definition in the rule book will determine if this is possible. Right now we don't know exactly what exchange means in Dominion. It may or may not be an "if you do" situation.

Edit: Professor X beat me to it.