Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion Articles => Topic started by: Co0kieL0rd on March 26, 2015, 05:03:32 pm
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In the recent thread on Hunting Grounds (link=topic=12719.msg471143#msg471143 date=1426434735 (http://link=topic=12719.msg471143#msg471143 date=1426434735)), Stef casually came up with the idea of summarizing a specific card and/or giving strategic advice for its use in only 10 words. Apart from 3 different articles on HG, this is the best thing that came out of that thread for me. Why not make it a challenge? Try to be as focussed on the main strengths and abilities of the card as possible, you've only got 10 words. No more and no less.
Stef set the bar with his strategic summary on Hunting Grounds:
Play in deck drawing engines. Overbuild when you can trash.
The other day at work I couldn't stop thinking of such 10 word summaries myself. I will collect my own ideas as well as all valid entries of other people below in this post. Hopefully, it will be an interesting read. Oh, and if you disagree with any of the summaries, especially mine, I'm happy to complement or replace it with a better one.
Ambassador: As all suspected. Not only history shows, Ambassadors love war. (hvb)
Rarely ignore. Get two. Return two coppers over one estate. (JW)
Apprentice: Great with gainers or other expensive trashers, but not Copper (iguanaiguana)
Baron: Buy is key. Good in 2nd shuffle. Or bad. (Eevee; 9 words)
Black Market: If there's something you need, they've got it. (Donald X.);
Doesn't matter what's in it. Often good in engine decks. (Eevee)
Border Village: Buy this and get a free Torturer. Step three: profit! (Jack Rudd)
Cache: Gain this when Copper is easily trashed or actually useful. (Co0kieL0rd)
Contraband: Good when you have options. Play it before other treasures. (eHalcyon)
Coppersmith: Not worth it without reliable draw, extra buys, action surplus. (Co0kieL0rd)
Duke: Buy all Duchies first. Usually better than Provinces, especially uncontested. (qmech)
Fairgrounds: With some effort, it's a personal pile of cheap provinces. (liopoil; 11 words)
Familiar: Often overestimated; Potion hurts tempo. Watch out for faster strategies. (eHalcyon)
Fortress: Village. Synergy with trash for benefit. Defence against trashing attacks. (Co0kieL0rd)
Goons: Virtually never skippable. Only question is engine or Goons/money. (jaybeez)
Hermit: Sanity is madness well-directed: early; often; with replacement gained. (SheCantSayNo)
Hunting Grounds: Play in deck drawing engines. Overbuild when you can trash. (Stef)
Ironworks: Premier Workshop variant. Pair with cost reduction for fun times! (jaybeez)
King's Court: Only ignorable if there is no +buy or draw. Awesome! (hvb)
Masterpiece: Best Feodum enabler; mediocre to bad otherwise. (werothegreat; 7 words)
Oracle: Draws quality over quantity. Decent for cycling. Attack is relevant. (markusin)
Outpost: Double turns if you can kick off with three cards. (liopoil)
Pearl Diver: Increases chances of drawing good cards earlier, but sometimes useless. (Co0kieL0rd)
Peddler: Get its price down to zero, then buy it up. (Jack Rudd)
Possession: High opportunity cost; often ignorable. Don't overbuild. Beware Ambassador, Masquerade.
Prince: Buy as engine enabler. Otherwise prefer Province. Good when ahead. (faust)
Rats: Have a plan to trash these, or do not buy. (werothegreat)
Rebuild: Strong fast engines can beat it. Not many other things. (Eevee)
Scout: Don't buy this ever. Oh wait, I need ten words. (werothegreat)
No, no, no, no, no. No. Good God man, no. (Witherweaver)
Scrying Pool: Mandatory with just a sliver of support for action density. (liopoil)
Sea Hag: Prioritise topdecking Curses until empty, then trash this dead card. (Co0kieL0rd)
Stonemason: Overpy, gain many Action cards. Trashes and provides pile control. (Co0kieL0rd)
Tactician: Enough virtual coin means you can play one every turn./Remember to keep something to discard, or you are screwed. (Kirian)
Torturer: Chains hurt. Feels worse than it is. Don't always discard. (eHalcyon)
Village: Basic card to increase terminal action capacity of a deck. (Co0kieL0rd)
Enables playing more cards. Necessary, but only for engines. (Eevee)
Watchtower: Synergizes with every card on the board, except for some. (liopoil)
Squire, Goons or Rats in the plain? Lookout for Watchtower! (hvb)
Wharf: Excellent engine and Big Money enabler. Almost always buy it. (Co0kieL0rd)
Whishing Well: Good if it's the only draw on board available. Practise with it. (hvb; 11 words)
Witch: You always buy Witch, the hard part is choosing when. (Titandrake)
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Black market: Doesn't matter what's in it. Good in engines.
edit: forgot to count the words.
edit2: didn't realize the first two count :-[
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If your strategy needs multiple important cards from the Black Market, you should have probably picked a different strategy.
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Scout: Don't buy this ever. Oh wait, I need ten words.
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Black market: Usually doesn't matter what's in it. Often good in engine decks, rarely in any other.
Would you say my description of Black Market is not accurate? Could you then rephrase what you wrote in 10 words?
EDIT: Does it really not matter? I didn't know that. Why do you get it then? For strong attacks? For variance? For mid-turn buys?
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Rebuild: Strong fast engines can beat it. Not much else.
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Black market: Usually doesn't matter what's in it. Often good in engine decks, rarely in any other.
Would you say my description of Black Market is not accurate? Could you then rephrase what you wrote in 10 words?
EDIT: Does it really not matter? I didn't know that. Why do you get it then? For strong attacks? For variance? For mid-turn buys?
Black Market: If there's something you need, they've got it.
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Black market: Usually doesn't matter what's in it. Often good in engine decks, rarely in any other.
Would you say my description of Black Market is not accurate? Could you then rephrase what you wrote in 10 words?
EDIT: Does it really not matter? I didn't know that. Why do you get it then? For strong attacks? For variance? For mid-turn buys?
Black Market: If there's something you need, they've got it.
Works if you don't use contractions.
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Black market: Usually doesn't matter what's in it. Often good in engine decks, rarely in any other.
Would you say my description of Black Market is not accurate? Could you then rephrase what you wrote in 10 words?
EDIT: Does it really not matter? I didn't know that. Why do you get it then? For strong attacks? For variance? For mid-turn buys?
What's in it almost never matters. You basically only ignore it in engine games when the kingdom itself already has everything you might need, which is not very common.
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Watchtower: Synergizes with every card on the board, except for some.
Outpost: Double turns if you can kick off with three cards.
Fairgrounds: With some effort, its a personal pile of cheap provinces.
Scrying pool: Mandatory with just a sliver of support for action density.
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Whishing Well: Good if its the only draw
on board available. Practise with it.
King Court: Only ignorable if there is no +buy or draw. Awesome!
Edit: Damn i cant count to ten
Edit2: It doesnt matter. Donald cant either.
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Black market: Usually doesn't matter what's in it. Often good in engine decks, rarely in any other.
Would you say my description of Black Market is not accurate? Could you then rephrase what you wrote in 10 words?
EDIT: Does it really not matter? I didn't know that. Why do you get it then? For strong attacks? For variance? For mid-turn buys?
What's in it almost never matters. You basically only ignore it in engine games when the kingdom itself already has everything you might need, which is not very common.
I guess I had a totally different view on it, which might be 100% explained by the fact that I watch a lot of Adam Horton videos.
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Black market: Usually doesn't matter what's in it. Often good in engine decks, rarely in any other.
Would you say my description of Black Market is not accurate? Could you then rephrase what you wrote in 10 words?
EDIT: Does it really not matter? I didn't know that. Why do you get it then? For strong attacks? For variance? For mid-turn buys?
Black Market: If there's something you need, they've got it.
Works if you don't use contractions.
What if you count "Black" and "Market"?
It seems obv. counterproductive to require padding.
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Black market: Usually doesn't matter what's in it. Often good in engine decks, rarely in any other.
Would you say my description of Black Market is not accurate? Could you then rephrase what you wrote in 10 words?
EDIT: Does it really not matter? I didn't know that. Why do you get it then? For strong attacks? For variance? For mid-turn buys?
What's in it almost never matters. You basically only ignore it in engine games when the kingdom itself already has everything you might need, which is not very common.
I guess I had a totally different view on it, which might be 100% explained by the fact that I watch a lot of Adam Horton videos.
Black market is the thing Adam is most wrong about. Of all the things in the universe.
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Black market: Usually doesn't matter what's in it. Often good in engine decks, rarely in any other.
Would you say my description of Black Market is not accurate? Could you then rephrase what you wrote in 10 words?
EDIT: Does it really not matter? I didn't know that. Why do you get it then? For strong attacks? For variance? For mid-turn buys?
What's in it almost never matters. You basically only ignore it in engine games when the kingdom itself already has everything you might need, which is not very common.
I guess I had a totally different view on it, which might be 100% explained by the fact that I watch a lot of Adam Horton videos.
Black market is the thing Adam is most wrong about. Of all the things in the universe.
I don't even thinks he thinks it's particularly bad - it's more that he dislikes it.
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Village: Enables playing more cards. Necessary, but only in engines.
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Scout: No
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If you require exactly 10 words:
Scout: No, no, no, no, no. No. Good God man, no!
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Baron: Buy is key. Good in 2nd shuffle. Or bad.
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Adventurer: No, no, no, no, no. Maybe sometimes? Nah, no.
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Peddler: Get its price down to zero, then buy it up.
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Ambassador: As all suspected. Not only history shows, Ambassadors love war.
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Ambassador: Rarely ignore. Get two. Return two coppers over one estate.
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Masterpiece: Best Feodum enabler; mediocre to bad otherwise.
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Goons: virtually never skippable. Only question is engine or Goons/money.
Ironworks: premier Workshop variant. Pair with cost reduction for fun times!
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Watchtower (LOTR Edition): Squire, Goons or Rats in the plain? Lookout for Watchtower!
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Border Village: Buy this and get a free Torturer. Step three: profit!
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Witch: You always buy Witch, the hard part is choosing when.
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Jack of all trades - it is a jack of all trades.
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Urchin, Cultist: Ignore them and realize that losing in dignity is fun
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While I appreciate the fun answers, it's not much of a challenge to write them. Please try to actually include some helpful strategic advice.
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Mountebank? That's for jerks you might think. But jerks win.
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Stef's did not count the card name, so I won't either.
Familiar: Often overestimated; Potion hurts tempo. Watch out for faster strategies.
Possession: High opportunity cost -- often ignorable. Don't overbuild. Beware Ambassador, Masquerade.
Torturer: Chains hurt. Feels worse than it is. Don't always discard.
Contraband: Good when you have options. Play it before other treasures.
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Stef's did not count the card name, so I won't either.
It doesn't count anyway.
Familiar: Often overestimated; Potion hurts tempo. Watch out for faster strategies.
Possession: High opportunity cost -- often ignorable. Don't overbuild. Beware Ambassador, Masquerade.
Torturer: Chains hurt. Feels worse than it is. Don't always discard.
Contraband: Good when you have options. Play it before other treasures.
These are very nice!
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Rats: Have a plan to trash these, or don't buy them.
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Hermit
Sanity is madness well-directed: early; often; with replacement gained.
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Oracle: Draws quality over quantity. Decent for cycling. Attack is relevant.
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Tactician: Enough virtual coin means you can play one every turn.
Also: Remember to keep something to discard, or you are screwed.
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Pearl Diver (or village, Great hall, vagrant...): Play one, draw one, play one, draw one, play one...
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Duke: Buy all Duchies first. Usually better than Provinces.
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I know it's hard not to generalize, but still I think those two are a bit imprecize :
Cache: Never gain this unless Coppers help your deck a lot. (Co0kieL0rd)
Cache is also a cheap way to increase the money in your deck for those draw-your-deck engines. I once bought two caches for $10 just because I needed more money in my deck (at least $6), which wasn't possible with two golds. The coppers I gained with cards were simply junk, and I trashed them quickly.
Rats: Have a plan to trash these, or do not buy. (werothegreat)
Edge case vineyard is really worth mentionning here.
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Treasure Map: Be the first to buy this from the Black Market.
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Duke: Buy all Duchies first. Usually better than Provinces.
That's 8 words. Could I add "especially uncontested" at the end of the phrase?
I know it's hard not to generalize, but still I think those two are a bit imprecize :
Cache: Never gain this unless Coppers help your deck a lot. (Co0kieL0rd)
Cache is also a cheap way to increase the money in your deck for those draw-your-deck engines. I once bought two caches for $10 just because I needed more money in my deck (at least $6), which wasn't possible with two golds. The coppers I gained with cards were simply junk, and I trashed them quickly.
How about "Gain this when Copper is easily trashed or actually useful"?
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Prince: Buy as engine enabler. Otherwise prefer Province. Good when ahead.
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Apprentice: great with gainers or other expensive trashers, but not copper.
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Rats: Have a plan to trash these, or do not buy. (werothegreat)
Edge case vineyard is really worth mentionning here.
Only buy to trash for benefit, except sometimes with Vineyard?
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Duke: Buy all Duchies first. Usually better than Provinces.
That's 8 words. Could I add "especially uncontested" at the end of the phrase?
Exactly 10? But then I'm just wasting two words!
If you like. "Tolerate Copper" and "Appreciate Duchess" are also possibilities, but probably less commonly relevant than yours.
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Abandoned Mine: terminal Copper.
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Poor House: With +actions and strong trashing you reliably get $8 hands.
Wandering Minstrel: Cycles your deck early game, arranges your engine parts later.
Stables: Many Stables draw your deck using all that yellow junk.
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Chancellor: Best if you do not want other terminals. Otherwise weak.
Rebuild: At least you will have time for another game afterwards.
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Band of misfits: great hag, great ambassador, great conspirator, great chapel, mediocre five.
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Chapel: Trash your starting estates and coppers. Yes, I'm quite serious.
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Quarry: Copper without actions, Gold with actions, but best with buys.
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Vineyard: Get actions, two to three potions. Opponents cultist? No problem
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Duke: Buy all Duchies first. Usually better than Provinces.
I think "all" is a bit too much said.
Duke: Buy three Duchies minimum, then alternate Duke and Duchy buys.
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Duke: Buy all Duchies first. Usually better than Provinces.
I think "all" is a bit too much said.
Duke: Buy three Duchies minimum, then alternate Duke and Duchy buys.
If you buy three duchies then a Duke, you're doing it wrong. Pretty definitely. In a 2 player game, you usually want to buy at least 7 duchies before the first Duke (and very often just all 8 ).
(Edited to remove 8) )
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4 duchies is the absolute minimum, and then alternate at the very least. But still, you will almost always want more duchies first,
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Duke: Buy all Duchies first. Usually better than Provinces.
I think "all" is a bit too much said.
Duke: Buy three Duchies minimum, then alternate Duke and Duchy buys.
If you buy three duchies then a Duke, you're doing it wrong. Pretty definitely. In a 2 player game, you usually want to buy at least 7 duchies before the first Duke (and very often just all 8).
Mr. 8) strikes again. But yeah, get as many Duchies as you can first. Consider that your opponent denying Dukes when you have 7-8 Duchies is way better for you than if they deny Duchies when you have a bunch of Dukes.
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That problem is solved if we make lists using square brackets:
1]
2]
3]
4]
5]
6]
7]
8] ... nothing happened! 8)
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Or, you know, turning off smileys, like this 8)
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Or, you know, turning off smileys, like this 8)
BURN THE WITCH MOUNTEBANK ILL-GOTTEN GAIN CULTIST SOOTHSAYER REDACTED
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That problem is solved if we make lists using square brackets:
1]
2]
3]
4]
5]
6]
7]
8] ... nothing happened! 8)
But square brackets are a distinct punctuation mark from parentheses. You can't make a parenthetical comment in square brackets - square brackets are used for things like putting a quote into the correct context for the remainder of a sentence. Sure, don't use parentheses for numbering - I never liked that anyway, much preferring dots - and that doesn't really help the situation at hand.
F.DS - your grammar nerd headquarters.
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That problem is solved if we make lists using square brackets:
1]
2]
3]
4]
5]
6]
7]
8] ... nothing happened! 8)
But square brackets are a distinct punctuation mark from parentheses. You can't make a parenthetical comment in square brackets - square brackets are used for things like putting a quote into the correct context for the remainder of a sentence. Sure, don't use parentheses for numbering - I never liked that anyway, much preferring dots - and that doesn't really help the situation at hand.
F.DS - your grammar nerd headquarters.
Well, technically, punctuation isn't grammar.
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If it was, we'd make a fuss about "grammar-nerd headquarters".
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Duke: Buy all Duchies first. Usually better than Provinces.
I think "all" is a bit too much said.
Duke: Buy three Duchies minimum, then alternate Duke and Duchy buys.
If you buy three duchies then a Duke, you're doing it wrong. Pretty definitely. In a 2 player game, you usually want to buy at least 7 duchies before the first Duke (and very often just all 8 ).
(Edited to remove 8) )
I usually buy five or six before switching. 3 is a mathematical minimum, and so i said it was the minimum. I guess that doesn't relly make for particular valuable advice, so i see your point.
I think part of the problem comes from the fact that i play no 2 player games. For me, "all Duchies" is 150% of what you mean. Wanting to get twelve Duchies before your first Duke seems like a pretty bad idea, as the game will often enough end before you get there (for the fact alone that handling 12 Duchies is a lot harder than handling 8)*. Also, the Dukes will be worth the same as Provinces halfway through allready, and the risk of Duchies running out is significantly lower. So i felt a minimum statement, while only providing a very, very basic strategic insight (Dukes should at least be worth Duchies) was more accurate than outright claiming you should get "all".
*Woo-hoo, "Don't use Smileys" works! 8)
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Or, you know, turning off smileys, like this 8)
BURN THE WITCH MOUNTEBANK ILL-GOTTEN GAIN CULTIST SOOTHSAYER REDACTED
*beats Werothegreat with a poster-sized printout of the Harem card art*
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Duke: Buy all Duchies first. Usually better than Provinces.
I think "all" is a bit too much said.
Duke: Buy three Duchies minimum, then alternate Duke and Duchy buys.
If you buy three duchies then a Duke, you're doing it wrong. Pretty definitely. In a 2 player game, you usually want to buy at least 7 duchies before the first Duke (and very often just all 8 ).
(Edited to remove 8) )
I usually buy five or six before switching. 3 is a mathematical minimum, and so i said it was the minimum. I guess that doesn't relly make for particular valuable advice, so i see your point.
I think part of the problem comes from the fact that i play no 2 player games. For me, "all Duchies" is 150% of what you mean. Wanting to get twelve Duchies before your first Duke seems like a pretty bad idea, as the game will often enough end before you get there (for the fact alone that handling 12 Duchies is a lot harder than handling 8)*. Also, the Dukes will be worth the same as Provinces halfway through allready, and the risk of Duchies running out is significantly lower. So i felt a minimum statement, while only providing a very, very basic strategic insight (Dukes should at least be worth Duchies) was more accurate than outright claiming you should get "all".
*Woo-hoo, "Don't use Smileys" works! 8)
"the risk of Duchies running out is significantly lower" - than provinces, maybe (probably not? unless you're the only player going Duke in a multiplayer game). But duchies are WAY more likely to run out than Dukes, which is why you want to go pretty hard for duchies first. Quick point is that if you have 3 duchies, Duke isn't even worth more than Duchy, so you should buy Duchy (assuming that doesn't make an unfavorable the-game-is-ending-right-now-scenario), because Duchy is more likely to run out by the time you hit your next 5 than Duke is.
But more to the point, you aren't generally trying to maximize your points RIGHT NOW, you're trying to maximize them at the end of the game. If you are going to need to end up with 6 duchies anyway, you want to buy those first, because that pile is more likely to run out (and more useful to your opponents in non-mirrors).
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If it was, we'd make a fuss about "grammar-nerd headquarters".
And about "If it were" ;)
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For the counting VP cards, you usually want to stock up on the thing they count before you start getting them (except SR and Gardens in rushes). With a Feodum enabler, you really want to concentrate on winning the Silver split more than the Feodum split.
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Allright, i give it to you that 3 as a minimum is nonsense, as getting four is the same in points with a strategic advantage.
Hm, i didn't take into account other players might go for Duke, too. Let's see, if i buy 4 Duchies, then alternate, and my opponent buys Duchies until they run out, he gets 7 Duchies at a point where i have 5 and two Dukes (assuming we both get equally many chances to buy them). If we both get no or one more Duke before the game ends, i win. if we both get two more, we are tied. So i guess the question is, how likely is it that the game ends before the "get all" strategy becomes better. For 3 players, i think it's reasonable to assume that it will indeed pay off, at least in a mirror situation. For 4 players, that's either 3 guys sharing Dukes (making them just better Duchies) or 2 guys buying Provinces (6 each). The first case makes "buy 4, then alternate" mean pretty much the same as "buy until they are out", while the latter makes it possibly better. And of course, if i'm the only player going for Dukes, the game might end before i get even one, at which point switching earlier would clearly have been the better decision.
As i said, 3 probably really was a stupid statement. For 4, i think it's reasonable to say that it depends on the player count and strategies whether "gotta catch em all" is actually better. I guess i just want to say that it's not a trivial decision.
For the counting VP cards, you usually want to stock up on the thing they count before you start getting them (except SR and Gardens in rushes). With a Feodum enabler, you really want to concentrate on winning the Silver split more than the Feodum split.
Sure, but Vineyard, Feodum, Gardens, even Fairgrounds count cards that are useful for other purposes then pushing your VP count. Acting as if three Silvers did the same to your deck as a Duchy isn't really fair.
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If it was, we'd make a fuss about "grammar-nerd headquarters".
And about "If it were" ;)
And about, uh... sentence fragments.
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With a Feodum enabler, you really want to concentrate on winning the Silver split more than the Feodum split.
ummm... I disagree.
I've never seen a board that's so strongly in favor of Feoda that you want to go for Silvers instead of going for Provinces. I mean, yeah Silvers help you get Provinces but the Silver split just doesn't enter into the equation. If you're going for Feoda, you're usually also going for Provinces (or some other form of VP) unless you just lose to the guy who does.
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With a Feodum enabler, you really want to concentrate on winning the Silver split more than the Feodum split.
ummm... I disagree.
I've never seen a board that's so strongly in favor of Feoda that you want to go for Silvers instead of going for Provinces. I mean, yeah Silvers help you get Provinces but the Silver split just doesn't enter into the equation. If you're going for Feoda, you're usually also going for Provinces (or some other form of VP) unless you just lose to the guy who does.
Sorry, I was thinking of a Masterpiece game.
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How about you guys open a discussion thread for "how many Duchies should I gain before getting Dukes?" ;)
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How about you guys open a discussion thread for "how many Duchies should I gain before getting Dukes?" ;)
(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/60770198.jpg)
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In 2p there's no question, just buy all the duchies. You can finetune this if you are certain the game is about to end, but I honestly expect that to improve your win-rate over the naive buy all the duchies algorithm by less than 1%.
In multiplayer it's genuinely important to worry, because there's more duchies and the game ends. I think the 4 and alternate strategy is not so bad in multiplayer. Probably the optimal strategy is closer to 6 and then Dukes. But I don't know.
Anecdotal evidence: after every Duke game I've played for years, I've asked myself "would it have changed the outcome if I had bought the mathematically optimal number of Dukes/Duchies?" (i.e. count my 5 cost victory cards and maximize profit). The answer has been yes exactly once, and even then I am not taking into account denying duchies to my opponent.
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Menagerie: Works with discard for benefit and virtual money. Seldom ignorable.
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Unless the game is close to being over I think it's best to get all of the duchies. It's easier to not get all of the duchies if you don't.
Also, check this out: Smileys are on, and I'm still able to say 8) 8)
PPE: OH MY GOODNESS I DISCOVERED A SECRET SMILEY IF YOU DO :)) IT MAKES :))
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Unless the game is close to being over I think it's best to get all of the duchies. It's easier to not get all of the duchies if you don't.
Also, check this out: Smileys are on, and I'm still able to say 8) 8)
PPE: OH MY GOODNESS I DISCOVERED A SECRET SMILEY IF YOU DO :)) IT MAKES :))
Well, not in a multiplayer game - by the time you get 12, the game will have been over a while ago.
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Unless the game is close to being over I think it's best to get all of the duchies. It's easier to not get all of the duchies if you don't.
Also, check this out: Smileys are on, and I'm still able to say 8) 8)
PPE: OH MY GOODNESS I DISCOVERED A SECRET SMILEY IF YOU DO :)) IT MAKES :))
Darn it, I was catching up on this thread and I was going to do this before I saw your post!
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Workshop: Not just for gardening! It grabs cheap engine components, too.
Tunnel: Golds are not always good. At game's end, points are.
Great Hall: 1VP. Great Ironworks target. Scrying Pool likes it; Smithy doesn't.
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Workshop: Not just for gardening! It grabs cheap engine components, too.
Tunnel: Golds are not always good. At game's end, points are.
Great Hall: 1VP. Great Ironworks target. Scrying Pool likes it; Smithy doesn't.
I would drop the "1VP" because it is ambiguous in word count. ;)
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Workshop: Not just for gardening! It grabs cheap engine components, too.
Tunnel: Golds are not always good. At game's end, points are.
Great Hall: 1VP. Great Ironworks target. Scrying Pool likes it; Smithy doesn't.
I would drop the "1VP" because it is ambiguous in word count. ;)
Great Hall: Combos with cards that care about type. That's it, really.
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Workshop: Not just for gardening! It grabs cheap engine components, too.
Tunnel: Golds are not always good. At game's end, points are.
Great Hall: 1VP. Great Ironworks target. Scrying Pool likes it; Smithy doesn't.
I would drop the "1VP" because it is ambiguous in word count. ;)
Hmmm. In that case:
Great Ironworks target. Scrying Pool likes it; Smithy does not.
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Secret Chamber: Doesn't stop you from gaining a Curse. Combos with Crossroads.
Saboteur: Usually a weak attack, but watch out for King's Court.
Governor: Get them all, gain Golds, draw big, remodel to Provinces.
Stash: An expensive Silver. Chancellor or Scavenger helps in weak kingdoms.
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Ambassador: Rarely ignore. Get two. Return two coppers over one estate.
Following up on my previous formula:
Urchin: Rarely ignore. Three Urchins, two Mercenaries. Trash down, build engine.
Cultist: Rarely ignore, except Vineyards. Get lots. Easy on other terminals.
Rebuild: Rarely ignore, unless strong engine. Win Duchy split in mirror.
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Hey, I'll try!
Thief - Usually weak. Can help opponent. Gets better with many players.
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Ruined Market Sometimes this is a key buy in engine games.
Ruined Library The second-best Ruin; tolerable when Throning it.
Abandoned Mine Might not be so bad with Double Tactician.
Ruined Village Best Ruin of all for Peddler and Conspirator.
Survivors Sets up Tunnels; Scout/Navigator engine, anyone?
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Count: So many choices. Can't decide, but I do love trashing.
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Scavenger Deceptively strong. Plows through junked decks. Way better than Chancellor.
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Courtyard: Hand is good this time, but even better next turn.
Bandit Camp: A village is great, but the Spoils really help later.
Worker's Village: A village is great, but another buy revs my engine.
Fishing Village: A village is great, but double village and coin, WOW!
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Adventures!
Lost City: Strictly better Lab, but at what cost? Don't open.
Magpie: Lab for treasures, otherwise failed Wishing Wells that multiply themselves.
Hero: Good with Prosperity. Takes forever to get. Exchange for Champion?
Guide: Counters discard, Minion, and bad shuffle luck. Makes engines consistent.
Duplicate: Smuggle yourself, but controlled. Doesn't help you actually hit 6.
Coin of the Realm: Prevents terminal collision. Cheap, but needs buy. More consistent Village?
Amulet: JoaT choice on duration. Trasher with benefit when you don't.
Swamp Hag: Conditional Witch for cash. Sets up Madmen. Like Sea Hag?
Hireling: Instant Princed Ruined Library, but do you even want that?
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Adventures!
Lost City: Strictly better Lab, but at what cost? Don't open.
Magpie: Lab for treasures, otherwise failed Wishing Wells that multiply themselves.
Hero: Good with Prosperity. Takes forever to get. Exchange for Champion?
Guide: Counters discard, Minion, and bad shuffle luck. Makes engines consistent.
Duplicate: Smuggle yourself, but controlled. Doesn't help you actually hit 6.
Coin of the Realm: Prevents terminal collision. Cheap, but needs buy. More consistent Village?
Amulet: JoaT choice on duration. Trasher with benefit when you don't.
Swamp Hag: Conditional Witch for cash. Sets up Madmen. Like Sea Hag?
Hireling: Instant Princed Ruined Library, but do you even want that?
Feels premature to do these. The point of the summaries is to give succinct strategic advice, right? It's probably too soon for anybody to give solid advice for these when most people haven't even played one game with them.
Hero especially doesn't work when most of us don't know what the other cards in the line do.
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Ruined Library The second-best Ruin
Um
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Scrying Pool
Bring a pillow. Open tabs. Open potion. Open sleeping pills.
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Bazaar: Village is great, but expensive for just extra coin.
City: Expensive village. Race to buy. Empty another pile - turbocharged.
Crossroads: Cheap village. Good late game, alt-victory cards. Actions only once.
Village: The one that started it all. Just don't become village idiot.
Mining Village: Village is great, but trashing for coins can win games.
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duchess: if you'd take a free copper, consider a free duchess
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Moneylender: Solid, early spiking. Plan for mid-game trashing—except with Mountebank.
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Coppersmith: Care to gamble for an early Prince or King's Court?
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City: Expensive village. Race to buy. Empty another pile - turbocharged.
I highly disagree with this one. I'm finding City really difficult to sum up, but my best try is:
City: Ignorable unless pile(s) empty quickly. Better with more players. Groupthinky.
City is just an expensive village until a pile empties, which is not a trivial requirement. It's often overestimated and highly susceptible to group-think; if everybody is going for Cities and they drain the pile quickly, of course it's going to matter. But if only one player is going for Cities with no support (University, maybe? Eh...) then their deck won't be doing much until 10+ turns later. By the time they level up their Cities, the game is almost over. And even then, the Cities aren't much better than a Lab if they haven't gotten other payloads to play with all their +actions.
Part of the group-think arises from the fact that groups often play with more than 2, in which case piles will empty more quickly. Cities are thus better in multiplayer, which feeds into groupthink and makes Cities even better than they should be.
City is best if there is some other pile that is likely to run out and good payloads. Run out Curses or Ruins, maybe, or a popular cheap pile like Peddler. Use Cities to draw and play a bunch of Bridges or Goons, perhaps.
But yeah, that's a lot to summarize in 10 words. It's not usually a "race to buy" card though.
On a more general note, I think a lot of the recent summaries are just that -- summaries of the card text themselves. But just stating what the card does isn't helpful; I can just read the card itself for that.
(Edit: formatting)
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Bazaar: Village is great, but expensive for just extra coin.
Bazaar is a Village plus a Peddler, which is ~$7 of value but only requiring a single buy. So the coin is actually rather good value, if you want the coin; the problem is that you'd often rather have more, cheaper villages instead. But when you do want the coin, it's not expensive.
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Goons: virtually never skippable. Only question is engine or Goons/money.
"Virtually never skippable" is a region populated by probably Chapel and maybe Ambassador... if anything. One step further is the land of Mountebank, Wharf, and Rebuild. One more step and you get to Witch and Sea Hag.
Three steps down the road, if you look to the right you will see the coveted Goons, on a lunch break.
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"Virtually never skippable" is a region populated by probably Chapel and maybe Ambassador... if anything. One step further is the land of Mountebank, Wharf, and Rebuild. One more step and you get to Witch and Sea Hag.
Three steps down the road, if you look to the right you will see the coveted Goons, on a lunch break.
This is, like, totally not true. Sea Hag is very skippable and Rebuild is skippable whenever there's a stronger engine. Goons is almost mandatory if there's a way to play more than one per turn, and if there are no splitters, chances are Goons is the strongest terminal in the kingdom.
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Goons: virtually never skippable. Only question is engine or Goons/money.
"Virtually never skippable" is a region populated by probably Chapel and maybe Ambassador... if anything. One step further is the land of Mountebank, Wharf, and Rebuild. One more step and you get to Witch and Sea Hag.
Three steps down the road, if you look to the right you will see the coveted Goons, on a lunch break.
Ambassador and Wharf, yeah, Mountebank maybe. The other cards, not really.
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If you look at gain rates from the top 20 players (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13mQ1humtQbPLY9nbKscR65dV7hbGPdI3AQkNjMHZpeM/pubhtml?gid=495443102&single=true), Tournament is the clear winner. Many of the cards being named above appear at the top, but some are quite a ways down the list. Of course gain rate doesn't fully capture "skippability" but it's the simplest analysis.
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"Virtually never skippable" is a region populated by probably Chapel and maybe Ambassador... if anything. One step further is the land of Mountebank, Wharf, and Rebuild. One more step and you get to Witch and Sea Hag.
Three steps down the road, if you look to the right you will see the coveted Goons, on a lunch break.
This is, like, totally not true. Sea Hag is very skippable and Rebuild is skippable whenever there's a stronger engine. Goons is almost mandatory if there's a way to play more than one per turn, and if there are no splitters, chances are Goons is the strongest terminal in the kingdom.
I'll trust you on this one.
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If you look at gain rates from the top 20 players (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13mQ1humtQbPLY9nbKscR65dV7hbGPdI3AQkNjMHZpeM/pubhtml?gid=495443102&single=true), Tournament is the clear winner. Many of the cards being named above appear at the top, but some are quite a ways down the list. Of course gain rate doesn't fully capture "skippability" but it's the simplest analysis.
I was going to add Tournament but I forgot.
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Chapel is also very skippable on big money boards or ones with alternatives that happen to be better for the board, like ambassador sometimes. Truly tournament is the one card that has a place in pretty much every deck.
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Chapel is also very skippable on big money boards or ones with alternatives that happen to be better for the board, like ambassador sometimes. Truly tournament is the one card that has a place in pretty much every deck.
Not Wharf?
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Duke: Buy all Duchies first. Usually better than Provinces.
I think "all" is a bit too much said.
Duke: Buy three Duchies minimum, then alternate Duke and Duchy buys.
If you buy three duchies then a Duke, you're doing it wrong. Pretty definitely. In a 2 player game, you usually want to buy at least 7 duchies before the first Duke (and very often just all 8 ).
(Edited to remove 8) )
Can someone explain this? I don't remember any of this in any articles. If I am all alone in the Duke/Duchy race and my opponent has already snagged 4 provinces or so... there is no way that 7 Duchies and 0 Dukes is optimal. Unless the game (and your buying power) lasts long enough to see through buying 3-4 Dukes. But I mean the game usually ends before I get 7 of either, combined.
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Of course gain rate doesn't fully capture "skippability" but it's the simplest analysis.
Gain rate doesn't capture "skippability" at all. It's a completely different metric. You would want to measure games where it's gained at all without taking into account the number of copies that were gained.
"Virtually never skippable" is a region populated by probably Chapel and maybe Ambassador... if anything. One step further is the land of Mountebank, Wharf, and Rebuild. One more step and you get to Witch and Sea Hag.
Three steps down the road, if you look to the right you will see the coveted Goons, on a lunch break.
In 2000-2500 games of Dominion I've played, many of them pre-Dark Ages, I've been happy skipping Chapel and Rebuild many, many times. I skip Sea Hag more often than I buy it.
Mountebank and Witch I've skipped a few times, yeah. Mountebank is a lot easier to skip because of Gardens and Counting House, but Witch not so much.
I've skipped Goons twice ever and been happy about it. Neither game had a village, one had Library (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6733) (though there's some debate on that one) and the other was Cultist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB6fkKgN0Og).
I've skipped Ambassador once ever and been happy about it. To be fair, my opponent didn't buy Ambassador either. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL5VlwHndxw) (Wow I watched this game again, I can't wait for all the people to tell me I should have gone with Black Market here...
I don't recall ever skipping Wharf or Tournament and being happy about it, but I may not have remembered these things. On a very fast Ironworks/Vineyard board I could certainly see myself skipping wharf, in fact in many rushes (IW/Gardens, Beggar/Gardens) or other combo decks (NV/Bridge, Hermit/Market Square, maaaaaybe Masterpiece/Feodum) I'd consider skipping Wharf and/or Tournament (or like all of these cards really)
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I've skipped most of the power cards at least once and be happy about it. For Wharf, I've beaten it with IGG/Scavenger. There was only one time I remember skipping Tournament
and winning ever. It was in the Iso days where I think I had 5/2 had went for a Cartographer/Cellar/Tunnel deck. It ended up being faster to just go straight for Provinces and Gold.
I still have to find a game where it felt good skipping Masquerade when my opponent didn't. I've won a game like that, but it was a BM board where we opened 5/2 and my opponent didn't open Masquerade. Ambassador too.
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Duke: Buy all Duchies first. Usually better than Provinces.
I think "all" is a bit too much said.
Duke: Buy three Duchies minimum, then alternate Duke and Duchy buys.
If you buy three duchies then a Duke, you're doing it wrong. Pretty definitely. In a 2 player game, you usually want to buy at least 7 duchies before the first Duke (and very often just all 8 ).
(Edited to remove 8) )
Can someone explain this? I don't remember any of this in any articles. If I am all alone in the Duke/Duchy race and my opponent has already snagged 4 provinces or so... there is no way that 7 Duchies and 0 Dukes is optimal. Unless the game (and your buying power) lasts long enough to see through buying 3-4 Dukes. But I mean the game usually ends before I get 7 of either, combined.
If your opponent can buy 8 Provinces before you can buy 7 Duchies, you're doing something wrong.
You want to get Duchies first because there are only 8 in the supply, you need them, and they are useful for your opponent as well, while Dukes are entirely useless for your opponent. That's why you have to ensure that you can get as many Duchies as possible before starting to gain Dukes instead. There are situations where you need the extra points as fast as possible, and you would rather have an early Duke for that reason, but you'll notice when you are in one of those situations so the default thing to do is to gain a ton of Duchies first.
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Duke: Buy all Duchies first. Usually better than Provinces.
I think "all" is a bit too much said.
Duke: Buy three Duchies minimum, then alternate Duke and Duchy buys.
If you buy three duchies then a Duke, you're doing it wrong. Pretty definitely. In a 2 player game, you usually want to buy at least 7 duchies before the first Duke (and very often just all 8 ).
(Edited to remove 8) )
Can someone explain this? I don't remember any of this in any articles. If I am all alone in the Duke/Duchy race and my opponent has already snagged 4 provinces or so... there is no way that 7 Duchies and 0 Dukes is optimal. Unless the game (and your buying power) lasts long enough to see through buying 3-4 Dukes. But I mean the game usually ends before I get 7 of either, combined.
Sure. 7 Duchies and 0 Dukes is absolutely optimal there (unless there's some strange case where there are 2 other piles which are going to be empty very soon). Here's the issue: your opponent needs to get all 8 provinces there to end the game, right? So 8 provinces is 48 points (I am going to ignore estate points, they usually don't change much). To get 48 points, I will need at least 11 duchy/duke. The most optimal way to split 11 duchy/duke is 7 duchy/4 duke, which nets 49 points. So you're going to need 11 anyway, you might as well get the duchies first, since they are much more likely to run out, and you are doing a little bit of a denial to your opponent (who can make some use of a duchy, but no use of a duke).
You're probably coming at it from the angle of "the game is going to end soon, I should get as many points as possible as fast as possible". This is a really common thing I see in a lot of people, but it's actually wrong. The point is, those extra points will never win you that game which is ending soon anyway. If the game really ends that soon, you are just going to lose either way, and it doesn't actually matter how many points you have - what matters is whether or not you have more when the game ends. Going for more dukes sooner might look good in that sense, because it scores more points. But it doesn't actually do that in a way that lets you win.
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maaaaaybe Masterpiece/Feodum
As much as I like this combo, I've actually never gotten to play it unless I deliberately added both of them to a kingdom.
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WW, you are ignoring the possibility of a 3-pile, which is often quite relevant.
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WW, you are ignoring the possibility of a 3-pile, which is often quite relevant.
Duke: Buy all Duchies first. Usually better than Provinces.
I think "all" is a bit too much said.
Duke: Buy three Duchies minimum, then alternate Duke and Duchy buys.
If you buy three duchies then a Duke, you're doing it wrong. Pretty definitely. In a 2 player game, you usually want to buy at least 7 duchies before the first Duke (and very often just all 8 ).
(Edited to remove 8) )
Can someone explain this? I don't remember any of this in any articles. If I am all alone in the Duke/Duchy race and my opponent has already snagged 4 provinces or so... there is no way that 7 Duchies and 0 Dukes is optimal. Unless the game (and your buying power) lasts long enough to see through buying 3-4 Dukes. But I mean the game usually ends before I get 7 of either, combined.
Sure. 7 Duchies and 0 Dukes is absolutely optimal there (unless there's some strange case where there are 2 other piles which are going to be empty very soon). Here's the issue: your opponent needs to get all 8 provinces there to end the game, right? So 8 provinces is 48 points (I am going to ignore estate points, they usually don't change much). To get 48 points, I will need at least 11 duchy/duke. The most optimal way to split 11 duchy/duke is 7 duchy/4 duke, which nets 49 points. So you're going to need 11 anyway, you might as well get the duchies first, since they are much more likely to run out, and you are doing a little bit of a denial to your opponent (who can make some use of a duchy, but no use of a duke).
You're probably coming at it from the angle of "the game is going to end soon, I should get as many points as possible as fast as possible". This is a really common thing I see in a lot of people, but it's actually wrong. The point is, those extra points will never win you that game which is ending soon anyway. If the game really ends that soon, you are just going to lose either way, and it doesn't actually matter how many points you have - what matters is whether or not you have more when the game ends. Going for more dukes sooner might look good in that sense, because it scores more points. But it doesn't actually do that in a way that lets you win.
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Sorry, missed that. I don't think that case is so strange though.
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maaaaaybe Masterpiece/Feodum
As much as I like this combo, I've actually never gotten to play it unless I deliberately added both of them to a kingdom.
Really? It's come up pretty often for me. At least three times, I think. Probably more.
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Of course gain rate doesn't fully capture "skippability" but it's the simplest analysis.
Gain rate doesn't capture "skippability" at all. It's a completely different metric. You would want to measure games where it's gained at all without taking into account the number of copies that were gained.
I meant "gain rate" as the % of games where this card is gained. And that's the data in the link I posted. Nothing to do with number of copies.
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maaaaaybe Masterpiece/Feodum
As much as I like this combo, I've actually never gotten to play it unless I deliberately added both of them to a kingdom.
Really? It's come up pretty often for me. At least three times, I think. Probably more.
My very first Guilds game (http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20130614/log.506872f90cf2795d403d3f0a.1371204448437.txt) had Masterpiece, Feodum and Trader.
Transmute, University, Lookout, Masterpiece, Urchin, Alchemist, Bridge, Feodum, Trader, Adventurer
Knowing what we know now about Mercenary, there might actually be a Bridge megaturn there. Probably a reasonable Kingdom design submission...
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maaaaaybe Masterpiece/Feodum
As much as I like this combo, I've actually never gotten to play it unless I deliberately added both of them to a kingdom.
Really? It's come up pretty often for me. At least three times, I think. Probably more.
It's come up once for me. My opponent didn't see it and it was otherwise an engine board, so I was pretty much uncontested on Silvers and Feoda. I ended up with 36 Silvers and all 8 12-point Feoda. That was pretty satisfying.
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On a more general note, I think a lot of the recent summaries are just that -- summaries of the card text themselves. But just stating what the card does isn't helpful; I can just read the card itself for that.
The OP states the goal is to create descriptions "summarizing a specific card and/or giving strategic advice for its use in only 10 words." It does not specify giving strategy only. If want to give strategy only, that's fine. But that is not what this post is limited to according to what I read.
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On a more general note, I think a lot of the recent summaries are just that -- summaries of the card text themselves. But just stating what the card does isn't helpful; I can just read the card itself for that.
The OP states the goal is to create descriptions "summarizing a specific card and/or giving strategic advice for its use in only 10 words." It does not specify giving strategy only. If want to give strategy only, that's fine. But that is not what this post is limited to according to what I read.
OK, fair enough. But I stand by what I said that just summarizing isn't useful. The official cards themselves are already made to be succinct. I think the OP implies that a strategic take should be applied, and strategy is certainly the purpose behind the inspiration for this thread.
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OK, fair enough. But I stand by what I said that just summarizing isn't useful. The official cards themselves are already made to be succinct. I think the OP implies that a strategic take should be applied, and strategy is certainly the purpose behind the inspiration for this thread.
Throne Room: Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice.
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Yeah it's really not hard to describe the literal effects of a card. The whole basis for this is that Stef, in 10 words, conveyed not just the direct impacts of Hunting Grounds but the core of a whole strategy article. (And then more helpfully in 20 words.) And this thread is in the Dominion Articles section.
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OK, fair enough. But I stand by what I said that just summarizing isn't useful. The official cards themselves are already made to be succinct. I think the OP implies that a strategic take should be applied, and strategy is certainly the purpose behind the inspiration for this thread.
Throne Room: Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice.
Dondon151: Deserves many upvotes. Upvote this post, and then some more.
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Gardens: Rush if you can quickly gain two cards every turn.
(I've been meaning to write an article about Gardens, since most of the current content predates Beggar, Storeroom, Candlestick Maker, and other important enablers)
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Gardens: Rush if you can quickly gain two cards every turn.
(I've been meaning to write an article about Gardens, since most of the current content predates Beggar, Storeroom, Candlestick Maker, and other important enablers)
Is being able to quickly gain two cards every turn better than being able to slowly gain two cards every turn? Like, maybe your opponent won't notice that you're going to go for Gardens rush?
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I'd probably go with:
Gardens: Alt VP aids engine, but rush if Ironworks is present.
Seems to capture the essence of the card nicely. There are a handful of really strong interactions between Gardens and another card (Beggar comes to mind), but I think in the majority of kingdoms, Gardens is just standard alt VP. Most Gardens rushes in 2-player lose to halfway decent engines, and without specific combos, they're also nothing special.
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Gardens: Rush if you can quickly gain two cards every turn.
(I've been meaning to write an article about Gardens, since most of the current content predates Beggar, Storeroom, Candlestick Maker, and other important enablers)
Is being able to quickly gain two cards every turn better than being able to slowly gain two cards every turn? Like, maybe your opponent won't notice that you're going to go for Gardens rush?
Yeah - it's a lot faster to get half a dozen cards that cost 3 than half a dozen cards that cost 5, and every turn you take to get set up is a turn your opponent is closer to Provinces.
I'd probably go with:
(EDIT: Removed a post I was trying to take down 10 minutes ago. Apparently, on iOS you can't really select text on mobile. Fun, eh.)
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Gardens: Rush if you can quickly gain two cards every turn.
(I've been meaning to write an article about Gardens, since most of the current content predates Beggar, Storeroom, Candlestick Maker, and other important enablers)
Is being able to quickly gain two cards every turn better than being able to slowly gain two cards every turn? Like, maybe your opponent won't notice that you're going to go for Gardens rush?
Yeah - it's a lot faster to get half a dozen cards that cost 3 than half a dozen cards that cost 5, and every turn you take to get set up is a turn your opponent is closer to Provinces.
I'd probably go with:
Gardens: Alt VP aids engine, but rush if Ironworks is present.
Seems to capture the essence of the card nicely. Gardens rushes are generally bad outside of basically only Ironworks.
This is just flat out, plain, and completely wrong. Maybe before the last couple of expansions this was the case, but Beggar, CSM, and Storeroom are all top tier Gardens enablers that can easily beat many standard strategies. CSM actually beats DoubleJack a decent amount of the time.
You're flat out, plain, completely wrong there.
Edit: Ok, not 100%, beggar is good (though not a rush), and Storeroom is, well, not really good, just not totally often.
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Gardens: Rush if you can quickly gain two cards every turn.
(I've been meaning to write an article about Gardens, since most of the current content predates Beggar, Storeroom, Candlestick Maker, and other important enablers)
Is being able to quickly gain two cards every turn better than being able to slowly gain two cards every turn? Like, maybe your opponent won't notice that you're going to go for Gardens rush?
Yeah - it's a lot faster to get half a dozen cards that cost 3 than half a dozen cards that cost 5, and every turn you take to get set up is a turn your opponent is closer to Provinces.
I was joking because I though of "quickly" as measuring how many you get per turn, and then you explicitly stated the number obtained per turn.
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WW - Care to explain? Storeroom is a guaranteed $4 and 2 Buy every turn. CSM is nonterminal, very cheap, and potent - you can get to 40 cards by turn 14 pretty easily. Beggar / Gardens already has an article written about it.
Simulators aren't perfect, but CSM and Beggar are quite potent against a lot of standard benchmark BM strategies like double Jack. Storeroom is not quite at their level, but is good enough to be worth considering on a lot of boards.
As an aside, sorry for escalating this discussion earlier. Wasn't able to edit words out of my post quickly enough. Had a meh day.
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WW - Care to explain? Storeroom is a guaranteed $4 and 2 Buy every turn. CSM is nonterminal, very cheap, and potent - you can get to 40 cards by turn 14 pretty easily. Beggar / Gardens already has an article written about it.
Simulators aren't perfect, but CSM and Beggar are quite potent against a lot of standard benchmark BM strategies like double Jack. Storeroom is not quite at their level, but is good enough to be worth considering on a lot of boards.
I assume that one problem a Candlestick Maker-Gardens strategy would have against Double Jack (or many other non-Gardens strategies) is that Double Jack will buy Gardens (including prioritizing Gardens over Duchies) to deny them. A simulator isn't going to capture this unless you spend a fair amount of time optimizing the strategies against each other. The Candlestick Maker-Gardens strategy might also want a Jack of all Trades, and so on.
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WW - Care to explain? Storeroom is a guaranteed $4 and 2 Buy every turn. CSM is nonterminal, very cheap, and potent - you can get to 40 cards by turn 14 pretty easily. Beggar / Gardens already has an article written about it.
Simulators aren't perfect, but CSM and Beggar are quite potent against a lot of standard benchmark BM strategies like double Jack. Storeroom is not quite at their level, but is good enough to be worth considering on a lot of boards.
I assume that one problem a Candlestick Maker-Gardens strategy would have against Double Jack (or many other non-Gardens strategies) is that Double Jack will buy Gardens (including prioritizing Gardens over Duchies) to deny them. A simulator isn't going to capture this unless you spend a fair amount of time optimizing the strategies against each other. The Candlestick Maker-Gardens strategy might also want a Jack of all Trades, and so on.
I did spend some time tweaking each script in this matchup in particular to have Jack start buying some Gardens as well, once the CSM player bought a single Gardens. I did a bit more work tweaking each one to respond to each others' strengths, but at a certain point it gets too complex (for me) to model. I mainly used "double jack in a simulator" here to provide a reference for a standard, fairly quick (13-14 turn) winning strategy that CSM can outdo.
But really, give it a try sometime, it's not a flawless or unbeatable strategy by any means, but it's a reasonable choice on boards, particularly boards that don't hand you an engine on a silver platter (cheap trashing, villages, +buy, payload all there for you). The thing that sets it apart from most enablers is that it's always nonterminal, each copy always gives you an extra buy, and it doesn't lower your money density at all. A lot of what's great about Ironworks is how its nonterminal when you want it to be and you gain one card for each Ironworks you have in hand - and those advantages in a way apply to CSM.
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particularly boards that don't hand you an engine on a silver platter
If your engine is on a Silver platter, it's probably not very good.
/joooookes
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Okay, so there are several things wrong here. Beating a BM strat doesn't mean that a rush combo is good. Most kingdoms will actually have substantial card interactions that will yield strategies superior to BM.
Simulating CSM + Gardens vs. Double Jack doesn't say much about the power of CSM + Gardens. Double Jack probably isn't optimized on this kingdom even with updated buy rules to include Gardens. I'm going to hazard a guess that CSMs + single or double Jack that prioritizes Province over Gardens but can compete for Gardens if necessary is better than CSM + Gardens rush.
The problem with Gardens rush strategies in general is that they're so easy to catch up to in points and they commit so hard to the strategy that it's impossible to recover. Deny some Gardens, get Provinces. A Gardens rush strategy has significant problems buying higher VP cards.
A lot of what's great about Ironworks is how its nonterminal when you want it to be and you gain one card for each Ironworks you have in hand - and those advantages in a way apply to CSM.
No they don't. IW guarantees you at least 1 Gardens and however many extra IWs you can get with collisions per play. CSM doesn't guarantee you anything except for a Copper per play. IW's advantage is that it empties piles super quickly; IW and Gardens are guaranteed and the third pile can just be another cheap Action card or Estate. CSM doesn't empty piles as quickly. If you load your deck with CSMs, you're on average producing less than $5 per turn, which isn't even enough to buy Gardens + CSM or Estate.
IW and Beggar are strong enough such that if you see either with Gardens in a kingdom, you can abandon all other thought and just go for the combo and still have a reasonable win rate. There's no way that CSM comes even close to that amount of power.
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The biggest problem with going for something like CSM or Storeroom is that the other player is going to adapt to what you're doing. Sometimes, that will mean contesting you on Gardens. If you rush your enabler, they'll just build their economy out, then contest you a little on Gardens at the end, probably picking up a couple. Alternatively - and probably more common - they will just go 'over the top'. You're getting Gardens? That's cute, I'll get every province in the supply. The key adaptation here is that they don't waste their time going for things like duchies, preferring to build their economy up more. You, the Gardens player, need a way to end the game. So you can get 8 Gardens. Sure. And you can get 40 cards in your deck, I believe you. But how are you ending the game? You may be ahead on turn 14, but the game is not about that - it's about ending the game whilst ahead. This is the great advantage Ironworks has - it gets to both establishing your matrix of Gardens and cards quickly, and then being able to slam the door shut afterwards. Cards like CSM and especially Storeroom lack this closing power. Let's say you're playing Storeroom/Gardens, and I completely ignore what you're doing. It's going to take you at the very least 22 turns, and probably 23-24, to actually end the game. You can get 5 point Gardens in that timespan, plus all the estates. Sure. I just need to get all the Provinces by then, which is not too terribly hard for a BM deck focusing on that. But it's actually even worse than that - in order to achieve your turn 23-24 result, you need to empty the Storerooms ASAP, then move to Gardens, then finally Estates (actually you could go for Estates before at least some Gardens, and possibly should in this not-realistic-simulation-world - you are going to run into too many hands without Storerooms after very long, and that's going to cost you a few turns). But if you wait so long, then Big Money player can actually snipe Gardens from you towards the end, which on one hand speeds you up, but on the other actually has more impact for them than a Province in terms of swing (minus five for you, plus three for them in a lot of cases). They don't want to do that until late, because it hurts their deck more, plus it's helping you end the game. But late enough - let's say, stealing two - and they're going to have very nice chances indeed. So you can move to pick up your Gardens sooner, to try to combat that, but now you have fewer Storerooms going in, which is going to make your deck grind to a halt more easily/often, which means you're oozing a few more turns, so they can ignore you now and just head straight for Provinces.
The key is adaptability, and the problem you have as the Gardens "rush" player is that they have much more of it than you do. Now, why do they? Well, basically because their deck is economically better, and this lets them split for more different kinds of victory points at whatever time they want, and be better-equipped to do more things afterwards. They also have access to a source of VP which is just worth more than you. Plus you don't really have a good plan to end the game on your own terms, which gives them a lot of flexibility.
And this is all talking about Big Money - engines are going to generally do all these things even better; Engines are a bit slower, but you are playing a really slow game, which allows them a lot of time to do anything they want.
The issue is, these things aren't really rushes, because you don't really have a way to make sure the game ends against an unpanicking, uncooperative opponent (and good players will have both of these characteristics, even if simulators do not). So you're really not playing a rush so much as you are a slog. Slogs can work, but they need to be able to have access to large amounts of VP that it's really hard for other decks to get to. Duke works really well for that because they're worth nothing if you don't prep by getting duchies first. Gardens CAN work for that, but you really need to be able to get lots and lots of cards and/or be able to get lots of Gardens AND lots of duchies relatively quickly. Silk Road, very similar thing, generally. There are nuances of course, but hey, I've written a lot already. Anyway, this is why Beggar/Gardens is really strong. Only a few Beggars gets to the Gardens pretty quickly, you get massive amounts of copper (so lots of points), and you don't have tons of problems reaching into duchies. But it's more a slog than a rush.
CSM is a little trickier, I haven't tested it, maybe you can rush a bit. I'm not totally sure. But I have a feeling you're going to run into some of the same problems as Storeroom, though maybe not quite as bad. You do have the added issue that you're buying a bunch of coppers-with-buys, though, and that is just not a really strong card. In any case, I would guess that the Jack deck wants one CSM in it, at least if you know/once you figure out they're going for mass CSM/Gardens. Possibly just in general.
(Edit to fix a typo).
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10 words, guys. 10 words.
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I'd probably go with:
Gardens: Alt VP aids engine, but rush if Ironworks is present.
Seems to capture the essence of the card nicely. There are a handful of really strong interactions between Gardens and another card (Beggar comes to mind), but I think in the majority of kingdoms, Gardens is just standard alt VP. Most Gardens rushes in 2-player lose to halfway decent engines, and without specific combos, they're also nothing special.
Talisman with <4 non-trashing +buy is a pretty fun gardens-rusher.
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Chancellor: Terminal. Silver usually better. Good with village and Counting House
Festival: Buy them for village, coin, buy; but add good drawer
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Masterpiece: Best Feodum enabler; mediocre to bad otherwise.
Masterpiece: Amazing with Feodum, powerful in slogs, good in big money.
(I strongly disagree that it's mediore to bad if there's no Feodum, it's often better than Gold for 6$ and especially 7+$)
Bridge: Great payload with multiple copies in play. Nice in slogs
Jack of all Trades: Buy two, play money. Defends many attacks. Can support engines.
Chancellor: Cycling is often underestimated by newbies, still a weak card
Minion: Often you just want all, an engine on its own.
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Chancellor: Terminal. Silver usually better. Good with village and Counting House
Festival: Buy them for village, coin, buy; but add good drawer
While Chancellor is my favourite Dominion card, i don't think it's that good with Counting House. That combo just needs a lot of luck, and even if it succeeds, that's just a single Province. If you can set up a CH/C/V hand and buy Provinces reliably, you should be able to get to $8, anyhow..
Hmm... Maybe Prince Chancellor, instead. Or use Golem. Speaking of which, i think that Chancellor works surprisingly well with most Potion cards, considering it reduces the Potion slowdown, you can open Chancellor/Potion, most Potion costs are nonterminal and that you usually want multiples of them (meaning you want get fewer other terminals to collide with Chancellor).
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Chancellor: Terminal. Silver usually better. Good with village and Counting House
Festival: Buy them for village, coin, buy; but add good drawer
While Chancellor is my favourite Dominion card, i don't think it's that good with Counting House. That combo just needs a lot of luck, and even if it succeeds, that's just a single Province. If you can set up a CH/C/V hand and buy Provinces reliably, you should be able to get to $8, anyhow..
Hmm... Maybe Prince Chancellor, instead. Or use Golem. Speaking of which, i think that Chancellor works surprisingly well with most Potion cards, considering it reduces the Potion slowdown, you can open Chancellor/Potion, most Potion costs are nonterminal and that you usually want multiples of them (meaning you want get fewer other terminals to collide with Chancellor).
Village->Scavenger (topdeck Counting House)->cantrip->Counting House works better.
Also,
Minion: Good self-synergy. Great for playing all your key actions.
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Vault: Buys Gold. Gold Buys Province. Likes Tactician, Scrying Pool.
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Ambassador: Rarely ignore. Get two. Return two coppers over one estate.
Following up on my previous formula:
Urchin: Rarely ignore. Three Urchins, two Mercenaries. Trash down, build engine.
Cultist: Rarely ignore, except Vineyards. Get lots. Easy on other terminals.
Rebuild: Rarely ignore, unless strong engine. Win Duchy split in mirror.
Hmm...
Cultist: Play Cultist after Cultist after Cultist and Ruin your opponent.
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Vault: Buys Gold. Gold Buys Province. Likes Tactician, Scrying Pool.
Even better: Buys Gold, Grand Market, Province. Likes Tactician, Scrying Pool.
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Vault: Buys Gold. Gold Buys Province. Likes Tactician, Scrying Pool.
Even better: Buys Gold, Grand Market, Province. Likes Tactician, Scrying Pool.
Or, in honor of this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7idCubl7W4&list=PLHV1uVDYN5Y8ERtK0480cBTfBCv7RpImt&index=50), "vault plus gold equals province. All you need to know."
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Chapel: Every turn I'm shufflin' shufflin', Every turn I'm shufflin' shufflin'
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Reading the card of the week thread on Steward made me think of this.
The early game trasher that does not outstay its welcome.
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I was on vacation for 3 weeks and, holy smokes, did this thread grow! I will eventually collect all valid entries in the first post but it's gonna take some time. Thanks for participating and keep it going ;)
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Jester: Buy for gain, not attack. Gets much better in multiplayer.
Ill-Gotten Gains: Gain them all? Boom, two piles gone! Now empty duchies.
Thief: Stealing money seems good? But wait, opponent's coppers are gone!
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Forge: Rather laborious at building engines, great at salvaging it afterwards.
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Forge: Unlucky with Moats? Draw your deck, trash all fifty Curses.
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Chapel: Your starting cards are all bad. Get rid of them.
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Lost City: The penalty is not as bad as you might think.
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Lost City: The penalty is not as bad as you might think.
Are you sure? I think people are more likely to underestimate the penalty than overestimate it.
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Lost City: The penalty is not as bad as you might think.
Are you sure? I think people are more likely to underestimate the penalty than overestimate it.
(http://fs1.directupload.net/images/150430/sluonqk5.jpg)
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(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/61741948.jpg)
EDIT: The joke is that eHalcyon had a Teacher avatar when the joke was being made.
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(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/61741948.jpg)
I think either -Stef- or WW need to change their avatar.
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Lost City: The penalty is not as bad as you might think.
One card is huge.
Feast illustrates the gap between $4 and $5.
Border Village is free, if you make it from $5 to $6.
In both examples it's crucial if you have an additional copper, and a random card is often stronger.
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Lost City: The penalty is not as bad as you might think.
One card is huge.
Feast illustrates the gap between $4 and $5.
Border Village is free, if you make it from $5 to $6.
In both examples it's crucial if you have an additional copper, and a random card is often stronger.
That's not 10 words.
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Lost City: The penalty is not as bad as you might think.
One card is huge.
Feast illustrates the gap between $4 and $5.
Border Village is free, if you make it from $5 to $6.
In both examples it's crucial if you have an additional copper, and a random card is often stronger.
Feast is weak, but your point is taken.
Really, Lost City is giving your opponents each an instant, one-shot Lab. That's pretty nice for them.
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Page: Strictly worse Pearl Diver. You should probably never buy these.
Treasure Hunter: Really great for gaining Silver. That's probably what you want.
Warrior: This helps trash your opponent's Rats, in case he's struggling.
Hero: Yay, more treasures. What's going on with these cards, anyway?
Champion: Oh, okay, now I get it. This shit's pretty busted.
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Lost Arts: High opportunity cost of six, but OP on terminal draw.
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I was on vacation for 3 weeks and, holy smokes, did this thread grow! I will eventually collect all valid entries in the first post but it's gonna take some time. Thanks for participating and keep it going ;)
So.... how long we talkin'?