Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: ben_king on March 24, 2015, 12:57:09 am
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Apologies if this has been asked before. A search didn't reveal anything.
Suppose I play three actions during my turn, Scheme, Walled Village, and Smithy. At the start of my clean-up phase I could presumably choose which of Scheme or Walled Village to resolve first. If I choose Scheme first, I can put my Smithy on top of my deck. Now when I resolve Walled Village, my Scheme is the only other action in play. Am I allowed to put the Walled Village on my deck? Or is it no longer the start of my clean-up phase?
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Hrm. Going by just the wording on the cards, I think this is allowed.
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If I choose Scheme first, I can put my Smithy on top of my deck.
I don't think this is correct. The only thing you can do when resolving scheme is "choose an action card". Placing the card on top of your deck happens when you were to discard that card from play. You can't even begin to discard cards until you finish resolving all cards that activate "at the start of clean-up".
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You can't even begin to discard cards until you finish resolving all cards that activate "at the start of clean-up".
Yeah! Walled Village counts the number of action cards "in play" At the start of Clean-up, ...
, so no way for grsbmd to do that.
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That's weird - WV is the only "topdeck from play" card that does so at the *start* of clean-up, and not when you discard it, which makes it worse.
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If it was when you discarded walled village during cleanup, you could choose to discard all other cards first. Then you would be able to always topdeck two walled villages.
There was a thread where we discussed other possible wordings for Walled Village that would make it a bit better, but I can't find it...
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you could try to play against bots online and select these cards in the kingdom. Then wait for what the program does ^^
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You have to remember that the discussion took place when a different wording for Scheme was in use (if I got my time lines correct). But my understanding is that it worked then as pubby described.
Now the online version has you make all the decisions after "Start iof Cleanup effects", but before the discard(s) themself happen. That's to prevent the need to go "Which card to discard next", which in 99.999% of situations is pointless. The only real problem is Hermit, which can cause a chain of effects that cause cards to leave play (other than discarded) or enter play during Hermit's trigger, which can screw up your previous decisions. But I haven't seen this myself, it's "just" a theoretical problem.
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Scheme did change in the second edition, but the only change was that you make the choice after discarding instead of at start of cleanup. This has no practical consequence. The topdecking is after discarding, now as before.
However, the online behavior you're describing, which of course is not according to the rules, was at least correct for Scheme before. Now it's wrong also for Scheme. I understand it's to make the play expererience smoother, I'm just saying this because it sounded like you said the online behavior had something to do with Scheme changing.
In addition to to Hermit, that kind of chain could also happen with Village Green and Tunnel. (I have no idea how likely it is.)
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Of course with the craziness of various combinations, there are ways to get action cards into play after you start discarding things for your cleanup phase. So the new wording lets you top-deck a card that wasn't in play at the start of cleanup. Also, the new wording lets you use the ability if Scheme wasn't in play at the start of cleanup, but gets played during cleanup.
Hermit might be the only way to kick off this edge case actually. You gain Madman in the middle of cleanup step while discarding cards; which could kick off various things. Either call Duplicate (failing to gain another Madman because it isn't in the supply), or using Innovation to play that Madman as a Way of the Mouse Scheme.
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Of course with the craziness of various combinations, there are ways to get action cards into play after you start discarding things for your cleanup phase. So the new wording lets you top-deck a card that wasn't in play at the start of cleanup. Also, the new wording lets you use the ability if Scheme wasn't in play at the start of cleanup, but gets played during cleanup.
Hermit might be the only way to kick off this edge case actually. You gain Madman in the middle of cleanup step while discarding cards; which could kick off various things. Either call Duplicate (failing to gain another Madman because it isn't in the supply), or using Innovation to play that Madman as a Way of the Mouse Scheme.
To avoid this, a revised Hermit could borrow wording from Improve:
At the start of Clean-up, if you did not buy any cards this turn, trash this from play to gain a Madman.
(*) also removed "from the Madman pile" based on existing errata
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Of course with the craziness of various combinations, there are ways to get action cards into play after you start discarding things for your cleanup phase. So the new wording lets you top-deck a card that wasn't in play at the start of cleanup. Also, the new wording lets you use the ability if Scheme wasn't in play at the start of cleanup, but gets played during cleanup.
Good points.
Hermit might be the only way to kick off this edge case actually. You gain Madman in the middle of cleanup step while discarding cards; which could kick off various things. Either call Duplicate (failing to gain another Madman because it isn't in the supply), or using Innovation to play that Madman as a Way of the Mouse Scheme.
You're right again, I completely forgot about the "not during Clean-up" clause of Village Green and Tunnel.
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You're right again, I completely forgot about the "not during Clean-up" clause of Village Green and Tunnel.
I completely missed that Hermit, Village Green, and Tunnel had already been mentioned in the posts just above mine; and thought I was bringing up a completely new point.