Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Puzzles and Challenges => Topic started by: dghunter79 on March 05, 2015, 12:04:33 am
-
Solitaire game. Grand Market is in the kingdom. That's all you know.
How many different cards do you need to ban from the kingdom to ensure that you will not be able to buy* a Grand Market until turn 5?
(Simpler question: what's your estimate of the number? mine was 8.)
*EDIT: I meat "gain," sorry. But I haven't figured in out yet either way.
-
My estimate: 42
-
I'm going to estimate closer to 20, but I'm guessing. Without more than a couple minutes of thought, the following openings get you an early GM with perfect shuffle luck:
Vault/*
Mandarin/[Cache|Contraband]
Death Cart/Silver
I'm certain we have to prohibit Baker because of all the shenanigans it can cause.
-
One. Grand Market.
-
How can I not guess 55 ?
But I don't think it's feasible to actually come up with the correct answer. It's easy enough to come up with a list of single cards that will enable you to get a GM on turn 5 with no other support, Vault, Haggler, Forge, Stonemason immediately come to mind but then there are multiple-card combos, and you have to look at all of them before you know the minimum set of Kingdom cards to ban in order to disable them all. That's a lot of combos and I don't think you can automate that.
On the other hand, just running down the list of 206 Kingdom cards, you can probably get a list of the single cards, and maybe that reduces the problem size by a lot?
-
It's about things that can get GM on turns 3/4, not by turn 5 Adam.
-
How can I not guess 55 ?
But I don't think it's feasible to actually come up with the correct answer. It's easy enough to come up with a list of single cards that will enable you to get a GM on turn 5 with no other support...
Note that the question isn't "on T5," which is doable with just Silver/Silver/Gold and so can't be stopped at all. This is "impossible to get before T5. So for instance, Forge doesn't need to be banned--you can't get it T1/2 (even with Baker), so you can't use it until T5 at the earliest.
Though I suspect Doctor need banning too, because again, shenanigans.
-
Hmm, it seems I've misread the question. OK so a few of my examples don't quite work.
On the other hand, my guess will remain unchanged!
-
Do "shelters" count as a card you have to ban?
-
Storeroom
Nomad Camp
Chancellor/Scavenger
Poor House
Baron
-
Secret Chamber gets there with a number of things: Menagerie/Shelters, Shanty/Shanty, Village/Smithy(Envoy), Baker.
Baron, Scavenger, Chancellor, Stonemason (with draw) are out
Masterpiece/Fool's Gold works on a 5/2
Poor House works with Shelters
-
on their own:
Vault
Death Cart
Chancellor
Scavenger
Baron
almost on their own:
Develop + any$4 + any$5
Poor House + any terminal silver
Masterpiece + any $2 card that makes money
combo's
(secret chamber/storeroom) + draw3 + village
cellar + highway + feast
warehouse + remodel + $4cost
nomad camp + fool's gold
baker + lots of things
stonemason + coppersmith
horse traders + menagerie
harvest + duchess
Contraband + crossroads
Butcher + crossroads
Mandarin + contraband/cache/counterfeit
beggar + Farmland + any$4
Counterfeit + Fool's Gold
Counterfeit + Courtyard
Graverobber + Crossroads + any$3
Pillage + Cellar
I think I'd ban these:
Vault, Death Cart, Chancellor, Scavenger, Baron, Develop, Poor House, Masterpiece, Baker
Secret Chamber, Storeroom, Farmland, Horse Traders, Stonemason
Cellar, Crossroads, Warehouse, Courtyard
Harvest, Mandarin, Fool's Gold
which brings my current estimation to 21
I don't think you can just remove any of the cards without breaking the puzzle.
Off course maybe you can remove 2 and add 1, and it's very likely some cards still need to be added.
I'm a little worried still about Butcher and Graverobber, but with these bans I don't see how they could work.
-
Nomad Camp and Storeroom are enough to work on their own, no? Turn 3 isn't possible, but turn 4 is.
-
...
I'm adding doctor to the list. For example Doctor/Graverobber could get you a Grand market on turn 3 with shelters.
Also Menagerie because of Menagerie + remodel
Also Pubby is right in claiming Nomad Camp will do on it's own.
So my new estimation is 21 + 3 = 24
-
...
I'm adding doctor to the list. For example Doctor/Graverobber could get you a Grand market on turn 3 with shelters.
Also Menagerie because of Menagerie + remodel
Also Pubby is right in claiming Nomad Camp will do on it's own.
So my new estimation is 21 + 3 = 24
In that vein, I think that Inn also needs to be banned.
-
Smithy/Envoy work with Forge/Expand
also Shanties instead for the draw
oh and same idea but with Border Village/Remodel(Butcher)(Graverobber).
-
...
I'm adding doctor to the list. For example Doctor/Graverobber could get you a Grand market on turn 3 with shelters.
Also Menagerie because of Menagerie + remodel
Also Pubby is right in claiming Nomad Camp will do on it's own.
So my new estimation is 21 + 3 = 24
In that vein, I think that Inn also needs to be banned.
How would you get that to work?
-
...
I'm adding doctor to the list. For example Doctor/Graverobber could get you a Grand market on turn 3 with shelters.
Also Menagerie because of Menagerie + remodel
Also Pubby is right in claiming Nomad Camp will do on it's own.
So my new estimation is 21 + 3 = 24
In that vein, I think that Inn also needs to be banned.
How would you get that to work?
Open Inn on turn 1 with five coppers shuffle it in, turn two draw Inn-C-C-E-E, play Inn and buy warehouse or something, buy Remake on turn 3, Remake Inn into GM on turn four. There are probably other combos that work with it too.
-
Smithy/Envoy work with Forge/Expand
also Shanties instead for the draw
oh and same idea but with Border Village/Remodel(Butcher).
Hmm, I'm afraid you're right. This means either all the draw cards or all the remodel-ish cards need to go on the list.
Graverobber also works with shanty. Even Procession works with shanty.
Is it enough to ban Smithy + Envoy + Shanty?
It feels like the class of remodel-ish cards is bigger.
Edit: never mind about that. Any two cards that draw 4 together (say lab + moat) can be combined with any card that can transform a lab into a GM (Remodel, Remake, Procession, Graverobber, Expand, Forge).
And probably Salvager needs to go on the list too.
And either envoy or tunnel, or maybe even both.
-
Throne Room/Courtyard, Oracle, Moat also does enough drawing for these things. There might be other Throne Room solutions not related to draw.
Also Oracle or Watchtower with Shelters is sufficient cycling.
-
Is it..... 6?
-
The puzzle is to not be able to BUY a Grand Market before turn 5, isn't it? You need to ban a lot more cards to avoid being able to gain one, but the stipulation of having to buy it narrows the space a bit. So maybe we don't need to get rid of all the Remodel variants?
No clue what the answer is, but I'll say 23 for the heck of it.
-
Smithy/Envoy work with Forge/Expand
also Shanties instead for the draw
oh and same idea but with Border Village/Remodel(Butcher).
Hmm, I'm afraid you're right. This means either all the draw cards or all the remodel-ish cards need to go on the list.
Graverobber also works with shanty. Even Procession works with shanty.
Is it enough to ban Smithy + Envoy + Shanty?
It feels like the class of remodel-ish cards is bigger.
Edit: never mind about that. Any two cards that draw 4 together (say lab + moat) can be combined with any card that can transform a lab into a GM (Remodel, Remake, Procession, Graverobber, Expand, Forge).
And probably Salvager needs to go on the list too.
And either envoy or tunnel, or maybe even both.
Any card that costs $4 or $3 that can draw/cycle three can be combined with an appropriate remodel variant. So that includes Ironmonger, Advisor, Menagerie, Watchtower, Oracle, Crossroads, Warehouse, there are probably more. I think you have to just blanket ban all remodel variants.
-
One of watchtower and feodum needs to be banned.
-
Sage needs to go on the list for it's pairing with bridge, nomad camp, woodcutter, squire, and probably more. Loan needs considering on the same basis but it's probably ok.
At least one of foedum and watchtower needs to go on the list too.
edit - spice merchant/loan/counterfeit can give a turn 4 grand market.
-
I stand by my estimate of 42. It wasn't just a stupid hitchhikers joke, it was serious.
Black Market needs to be banned, because you can just put baker in the BM deck or something. Also Haggler, as Adam brought up. Open haggler/lighthouse, hit $7 on turn 4. My current list, using the posts in this thread:
Vault, Death Cart, Chancellor, Scavenger, Baron, Develop, Poor House, Masterpiece, Baker, Secret Chamber, Storeroom, Farmland, Horse Traders, Stonemason, Cellar, Crossroads, Warehouse, Courtyard, Harvest, Mandarin, Fool's Gold, Black Market, Doctor, Menagerie, Nomad Camp, Inn, Forge, Expand, Watchtower, Salvager, Tunnel, Remodel, Remake, Upgrade, Graverobber, Procession, Butcher, Loan, Haggler, Sage.
We are already at 40, and I'm sure there are more. AdamH's 55 may be good.
-
I think only one of Inn/Upgrade needs to be banned, actually. Unless someone can find a way to do it with one that doesn't involve the other.
-
Squire and counterfeit look like they need listing. I don't think that hunting party/squire/counterfeit will be the only combo for them.
-
Noble Brigand needs banning if you have an opponent.
T1 Opponent buys NB, you flip 2 Estates and gain Copper.
T1 you buy Silver with 4 and draw 3 Copper, shuffle(5 Copper 3 Estates 1 Silver), draw Silver + Copper.
T2 Opponent does whatever.
T2 you buy Gold, drawing 4 Copper and Estate.
T3 Opponent buys second NB, you flip 2 Estates and gain Copper.
T3 you buy Silver, shuffle(9 Copper 3 Estates 2 Silver 1 Gold), draw 2 Silver, 1 Gold, 2 others
T4 you buy Grand Market.
-
Black Market needs to be banned, because you can just put baker in the BM deck or something.
Disagree. Baker on its own already has to be banned, which presumably means that it can't be in the BM deck either.
-
Black Market needs to be banned, because you can just put baker in the BM deck or something.
Disagree. Baker on its own already has to be banned, which presumably means that it can't be in the BM deck either.
How many different cards do you need to ban from the kingdom
The Black Market deck is not part of the kingdom.
-
Somehow we did not mention Governor yet, which just needs any $4 card to work.
-
Somehow we did not mention Governor yet, which just needs any $4 card to work.
I could have sworn that was on Stef's list. But I think that falls under the blanket remodel-variant ban.
-
Vagrant / Highway, Altar on turn 3.
-
Black Market needs to be banned, because you can just put baker in the BM deck or something.
Disagree. Baker on its own already has to be banned, which presumably means that it can't be in the BM deck either.
How many different cards do you need to ban from the kingdom
The Black Market deck is not part of the kingdom.
Bah, my bad.
-
Duchess / Stables, King's Court on turn 3.
-
At this rate I'm pretty sure we're going to have to ban half the kingdom cards.
-
At this rate I'm pretty sure we're going to have to ban half the kingdom cards.
Also I think dghunter needs to change the thread title. This is not nearly as simple as it was at first glance.
-
Well, like many questions, the question is simple, the answer is quite complicated.
-
Could there be anything to gain from looking at what we don't have to ban?
-
Throne room (or procession) with wishing well (or vagrant) and moneylender can get the grand market.
-
Could there be anything to gain from looking at what we don't have to ban?
I can pretty confidently say that we don't have to ban Scout (anyone who can prove me wrong on this gets a million respect)
-
If we hadn't banned secret chamber we would have had to ban scout, among other things.
-
Perhaps the most thematic combo for getting a T3 Grand Market is Butcher, Baker, Candlestick Maker.
-
In a similar vein to Noble Brigand, Masquerade, if you have a very helpful opponent.
T1+2 Opponent buys Masq Silver, you buy 2 Silver
T3 Opponent passes you Silver, you buy GM with 3 Silver
T4 You pay your opponent $20 in real money
Also Ambassador, with help from Quarry and Loan (and Scout)
T1+2 Opponent buys Ambassador Quarry, you buy Loan+Quarry, drawing 4 Copper and Loan
T3 Opponent gives you Quarry, you play Loan skipping 3 Estates and hitting Copper, trashing it, buying Scout, drawing 2 Copper, 2 Quarries, and Scout
T4 Opponent does whatever, you play Scout, drawing 3 Estates, play 2 Quarries and buy Grand Market.
Clearly, Scout needs to be banned. Drawing 3 Estates is just too good. :P
Technically, it works with just Loan+Quarry though
T1+2 Loan+Quarry
T3 4 Copper+Loan hits 3 Estates and Copper, trashing, buys Quarry, draws 2 Copper, 2 Quarries, and Loan
T4 play 2 Quarries and buy GM
Pure Ambassador doesn't work, since you will never be able to draw the Ambassadored card before T5. However, it probably combos with a lot of cards, since you can just gain a second copy of any <5 cost card on T3. Maybe something with Watchtower to get it on T3 e.g. Ambassador Quarry vs. Watchtower Quarry buys GM on T3.
-
Also, Trade Route
T1+2 Opponent buys Estate+Duchy, you buy Trade Route+Trade Route
T3 Opponent buys Great Hall/Island/Tunnel/Feodum/Gardens/Silk Road/Duke
You play Necropolis+2 Trade Routes and buy GM
So, either we can ban the 7 VP cards costing less than 5, or we can ban Trade Route. Take your pick.
Actually, even the 6(and 7) cost VP cards are out
T1+2 Opponent buys Silver+Silver, you buy Trade Route+Trade Route
T3 Opponent buys Estate, you buy Duchy
T4 Opponent buys Fairgrounds/Farmland/Harem/Nobles, you play Necropolis+2 Trade Routes and buy GM
Also Vinyard, just have opponent buy Potion instead
And Rebuild
T1+2 Opponent buys Estate+Rebuild, you buy Trade Route+Trade Route
T3 Opponent plays Rebuild, skipping 3 Coppers and Necro and rebuilding Estate into Duchy
T4 Opponent plays Rebuild(drew it after shuffle), hitting Duchy(OE in hand), gaining Province. You play Necropolis+2 Trade Routes and buy GM
That's like 12 cards that combo with it, so it should probably get banned.
-
Ambassador+Scout+Great Hall with 2 opponents
T1+2 Opponents open Silver+Ambassador. You open Scout+Great Hall
T3 Each opponent Ambassadors you Silver, you play Scout hitting 3 Estates and Great Hall, play 5 Coppers buying Silver, draw 2 Copper, shuffle, 3 Silver
T4 You buy GM with 3 Silver
Ambassador+Crossroads with 2 opponents
T1+2 One opponent opens Silver+Ambassador, another opens Crossroads+Ambassador, you open Crossroads+Silver
T3 Opponents Ambassador you Silver+Crossroads, you buy Silver with 5 Copper
T4 You play Crossroads with 3 Estates+Silver in hand, drawing 2 Copper+Crossroads. Play Crossroads again, drawing 2 Silver+Copper. Buy GM with 3 Silvers.
-
Remember that this was originally stated as solitaire, Ephesos. No help from other players!
Perhaps the most thematic combo for getting a T3 Grand Market is Butcher, Baker, Candlestick Maker.
This is truly brilliant... it took me a couple minutes to work it out, but that's awesome.
-
First, we need to ban CelestialChameleon. I'm sure he'd manage T3 GM with only copper.
-
Could there be anything to gain from looking at what we don't have to ban?
I can pretty confidently say that we don't have to ban Scout (anyone who can prove me wrong on this gets a million respect)
If we hadn't banned Remodel already, opening Scout/- can get you a T4 GM.
-
I stand by my estimate of 42. It wasn't just a stupid hitchhikers joke, it was serious.
I stand by my estimate of 55. By my actions in this thread it's clearly based on a clear understanding of Dominion, perfect shuffle luck puzzles, and it was most certainly not a nod to the best number in existence.
We are already at 40, and I'm sure there are more. AdamH's 55 may be good.
Inb4 my answer is exactly right.
-
Remember that this was originally stated as solitaire, Ephesos. No help from other players!
Lol, how'd I miss that? Solitaire Dominion is weird though, certain cards just don't work...
Smugglers needs to be banned
T1 Sit to the left of a person playing another game of Solitaire Dominion trying to do this puzzle, and buy Smugglers.
T2-3 Wait patiently until they buy GM. Taunting is encouraged.
T4 Play Smugglers and gain GM.
How about JoaT?
T1+2 Buy Silver+JoaT
T3 Necro JoaT looking at and discarding Copper, drawing to 5, trashing Overgrown Estate to draw Copper, and buying Silver. Draw up 3 cards left including Silver, and 2 more Silvers.
T4 3 Silver, buy GM
-
There are some jack-of-all-trades options even without necropolis. Hamlet+jack+embargo/duchess will work, as will as jack+forager.
-
Duchess / Stables, King's Court on turn 3.
Hang on, spell this one out?
-
Duchess / Stables, King's Court on turn 3.
Hang on, spell this one out?
Open duchess / stables. Turn 3 hand: duchess, stables, 3 copper; play stables, discard copper, draw 3 copper, play duchess, discard copper on top, play 5 copper, buy KC. Turn 4 hand: 3 estate, (shuffle) KC, duchess, KC the duchess.
-
Duchess / Stables, King's Court on turn 3.
Hang on, spell this one out?
Open duchess / stables. Turn 3 hand: duchess, stables, 3 copper; play stables, discard copper, draw 3 copper, play duchess, discard copper on top, play 5 copper, buy KC. Turn 4 hand: 3 estate, (shuffle) KC, duchess, KC the duchess.
Duchess confirmed OP. Nerf plz.
-
i'm coming up with a lot of good ways to buy a $5 card on turn 4
-
1 & 2: bridge/oracle
3: draw CC, necro, oracle, bridge, play necro, oracle, discard OE, H, draw CC, play bridge, buy conspirator/silver
4: draw CCC necro oracle, play necro, oracle, discard whatever, draw conspirator, silver, play conspirator draw bridge, play bridge, bam
so, hey, maybe ban one of those guys
1 & 2: venture/pawn
3: draw CCC V P, pawn for card/buy, draw C play venture, cycle three estates or whatever, play C buy quarry/ i dunno, candlestick maker?
4: draw CC P Q CSM, play csm, pawn for card/$1, draw venture, play venture, reveal & play copper OH GOD DAMMIT
start turn 4 again: draw CC P CSM V, play csm, pawn for card/$1 draw puddle of tears, play venture, reveal & play quarry, pay 1 coin token, buy grand market & curse, paste ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) into chat
-
A few more weird setups:
Rebuild/Tunnel/$2,$3,$4 that can draw a card;also Ruined Library from any Looter
T3: RebCCCC: Reb (name Tunnel, discard deck barring EEE, reveal Tunnel, gain G, E -> Tunnel): buy $2
T4: EERebDraw: Reb (name Tunnel, discard deck, reveal Tunnels, gain GG) -> draw (draw G): play GG, buy Gm
This also works with any trasher that costs <$4 with shelters, if you have Oge in hand name Tunnel, you will discard deck & gain a gold. Then on T4: RebOgeNecGTrasher: Reb (name Tunnel, discard deck, reveal Tunnel, gain G) -> Trash Oge (draw G)
Loan/Tunnel:
T3:CCCCLoan: Loan (discard TEEE, gain G, trash C): buy S
T4:CSGLoanC
Other options with more new cards:
Oupost/Squire:
T3:CCCCOpost: Opost: Buy S
T3b: CCSqr: Sqr (gain S): Buy S
T4:EEECOpost: Opost
T4b:SSS
Tmap/Tmap works off Baker
Smithy/Tournament works off shelters/Baker
T3: CCCCTour: Tour (draw Smithy) -> Smithy (draw 3C): buy Province
T4: NecOgeHovTourP: Tour (reveal P, gain Steed, draw Steed) -> Nec -> Steed (Gain 4S, +2 cards, draw S/Smithy) -> Smithy (draw SS)
Bm works with Shelters and Jack/Wt/Lib (needs Baker coin)
Bm/Jack
T3: NecCCBmJack: Nec -> Bm (play CC: buy terminal S) -> Jack (discard Hov, draw CCCCOge, trash Oge, draw C): buy S
T4: NecBmSTerminalS: Nec -> Bm (play S) -> Terminal S
Bm/Wt
T3:NecBmCCWt: Nec -> Bm(play CC: buy terminal S) -> Wt (draw CCCCCHov): buy S
T4:OgeNecBmSTerminalS
Navigator/Silver
T3:CCNavXX: Nav (discard 5 cards): buy S
T4:SSNavXX
Margrave/S is straight forward
T3: CCCCMarg: Marg (draw CCC): buy SS
T4: EEESMarg: Marge (draw SS)
Minion/Urchin with Baker coin
T3: EEEUrchC: Urch (draw Minion) -> Minion (draw CCCC, trash U, gain Merc): buy S
T4: CCMinionSMerc: Minion ($2) -> Merc (trash CC)
Bandit camp/Moat
T3: BcmpMoatCCC: Bcmp (gain Spoils, draw C) -> Moat (draw CC): buy G
T4: EEEGSpoils
Journeyman/Candlestick maker
T3: CstkJrnmnCCC: CstkJrnmn (name E, discard EEE, draw CCC): buy SS
T4:CCstkSSX
Cstk/any +3 card draw option for <$6 with shelters
T3: CstkCCC+3: Cstk -> +3 (draw CCC): buy SS
T4: OgeHovNecC+3:Nec -> +3 (draw CstkSS) -> Cstk
Pawn/Venture
T3: PwnCCCVent: Pwn (draw C, +1buy):vent (discard EEE, draw C): buy SS
T4: CCCPwnVent: Pwn (+$1, draw S): Vent (draw S)
Squire/Rebuild with shelters
T3:CCNecSqrReb: Nec -> Sqr (gain S) -> Reb (name Oge, discard deck): buy S
T4:NecSqrRebSS:Nec -> Sqr (gain S) -> Reb (name anything, discard deck except for Oge, Oge -> E, draw S)
Cellar/Rebuild/Feodum
T3: EERebXX: Reb(discard deck except for E, E -> Feodum)
T4: EECRebCell: Reb(discard deck except for Feodum, Feodum -> Duchy, gain SSS) -> Cellar (discard EEC, draw SSS)
also works with Xroads if you buy an E on T3
-
Are you suggesting opening Rebuild/Tunnel? That requires Baker.
-
Probably this one is forever unknowable. Or, I mean, not worth the effort.
But what if it's not?!? Here's 57 cards that I believe kill all the combos that have already been mentioned. Can anyone do it without any of them? Does anyone think this is more conservative than necessary?
TOO MUCH MONEY (9)
Baron
Death Cart
Fool's Gold
Harvest
Masterpiece
Salvager
Secret Chamber
Harvest
Vault
UNCAPPED GAIN
Haggler
Stonemason
TOP-DECKING
Develop
Nomad Camp
Watchtower
EXTRA COIN TOKEN
Baker
Black Market
ALSO BANNED
Doctor
Governor
Mandarin
UNCAPPED CYCLING
Chancellor/Scavenger
Inn
2-COSTS THAT DRAW/CYCLE 2 AT LEAST 2 CARDS
Moat
Cellar
Courtyard
Crossroads
Vagrant
2-COSTS THAT PROVIDE AT LEAST 2 COINS
Embargo
Duchess
3-COSTS THAT DRAW/CYCLE AT LEAST 3 CARDS
Warehouse
Loan
Oracle
Sage
4-COSTS THAT DRAW/CYCLE AT LEAST 3 CARDS
Smithy
Envoy
Scout
Navigator
4-COST REMODELERS
Procession
Remake
Remodel
4-COST THAT PROVIDE 3 COIN
Horse Traders
Money Lender
5-COST REMODELERS
Butcher
Upgrade
5-COSTS THAT DRAW/CYCLE 3 CARDS
Margrave
Outpost
Stables
5-COSTS THAT DRAW/CYCLE 4+ CARDS
Council Room
Hunting Party
Minion
Rebuild
Venture
Wharf
5-COSTS THAT PROVIDE $3
Contraband
Counterfeit
5+ COST REMODELERS
Expand
Forge
-
JoaT can do it with no other kingdom support, if you have shelters.
Open JoaT/Silver, Turn 3 draw Joat-C-C-OG-Necro, play Necro, play Joat (gain a Silver), discard Hovel, draw 2 coppers, trash OG and draw a copper, buy a Silver. Turn 4, draw your opening silver and your last two coppers, then shuffle your deck and draw two silvers, buy GM.
Edit: Also Poor House should be in the "too much money" category.
Edit edit: Ephesos mentioned JoaT already I guess.
-
Can anyone do it without any of them?
Easily if Kc stays in:
Tr/Steward:
T3:CCCTrStew: Tr -> Stew(draw CCCC): buy Kc
T4:EEEKcStew
Shanty/Stew plays the same.