Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => Innovation General Discussion => Topic started by: antony on November 28, 2014, 03:05:58 pm
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Hi all,
The bracket has been posted at http://challonge.com/isotropicinnovation2014
Please get in touch with your opponents of the first two rounds and schedule games with them before the end of next week (December 7th).
Play 4 games (base, echoes, e/f, e/f/c), defaulting to standard achievement target (but you can play extra achievement if you both agree). Try to keep links to the games and post the results here.
Participants with their time zones (UTC+/-)
antony -8
ipofanes +1
qdread -5
markusin -5
popsofctown -6
Lekkit +1
moomoo -5 (but claims -9 is closer to his sleep patterns :-))
JimKam +8
AJD -5
MTom -5
Antony
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Here we go for the first match, a nice tie:
moomoo 2 - antony 2
Base (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/28/game-20141128-223837-4b1377a1.html) (moomoo): I go for scoring, moomoo for tech. I am a bit too slow (scoring Coal was probably a poor idea) and moomoo ends the game with Computers->Robotics->Globalization.
Echoes (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/28/game-20141128-230300-b3f098a9.html) (antony): We exchange achievements and reach a fairly even 6-6, then I luck out with a Thermometer hitting two yellows, giving me Heritage for the win.
E/F (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/28/game-20141128-232700-f9628da9.html) (moomoo): I fool around early ages while moomoo mathes up. I actually fail to notice he's about to end the game with Math for the win, not that I had any chance of catching up.
E/F/C (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/28/game-20141128-234916-568255b4.html) (antony): We quietly tech to age 5 when moomoo hits Peter the Great. He gets a couple of achievements from him, then I hire him via Ben Franklin. I share the Bifocals/Photography combo to jump to age 10 but moomoo fails to notice it, so I get a few rounds there grabbing special achievements while he tries to catch up, more than enough to win the game and tie the match.
It turns out to be not so easy to switch quickly between game types, at least for me :-)
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My games against JimKam
markusin 2 - 2 JimKam
I forgot how mentally exhausting Innovation is. I'm much too tired to comment on these games right now.
Base: (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/29/game-20141129-185611-1c12efc7.html)
JimKam wins
Echoes (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/29/game-20141129-192601-bd38c413.html)
JimKam wins
Echoes+Figures (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/29/game-20141129-200834-9040f040.html)
markusin wins
Echoes+Figures+Cities (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/29/game-20141129-204343-c9aa8b94.html)
markusin wins
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Here is a very brief postmortem from my side
EF:
-Massive punt from melding experimentation instead of Stethoscope and meld it
-Should have just Rivalry Ptolemy instead waiting he got covered, two figures for expansion are not difficult to get at that point
EFC:
-I decided to go for measurement kill, blue at 9 card and green at 8 card. I've got enough card in hand but will get removed by society and banking
-I though my playing line is a bit too obvious though, melding blue without defense and grabbing score are hint for measurment
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Here is a very brief postmortem from my side
EF:
-Massive punt from melding experimentation instead of Stethoscope and meld it
-Should have just Rivalry Ptolemy instead waiting he got covered, two figures for expansion are not difficult to get at that point
EFC:
-I decided to go for measurement kill, blue at 9 card and green at 8 card. I've got enough card in hand but will get removed by society and banking
-I though my playing line is a bit too obvious though, melding blue without defense and grabbing score are hint for measurment
Yeah Societies was one of the heroes for me in that last game. I also got really lucky by snatching Industrialization using Enterprise melded from my forecast. I would not have been able to end the game fast enough if it weren't for Industrialization.
Honestly I wasn't specifically trying to counter Measurement, and wasn't considering the measurement win possibility. I just know that if your opponent is getting a huge score and making massive stacks, it's time to worry.
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moomoo beats AJD 3–1:
base: http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/29/game-20141129-202617-e7fc1b3d.html moomoo
E: http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/29/game-20141129-204605-248e8d16.html AJD
EF: http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/29/game-20141129-210801-aed6a082.html moomoo
EFC: http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/29/game-20141129-213309-ae1e5a7c.html moomoo
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AJD vs. popsofctown tie 2–2:
base: AJD
E: http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/30/game-20141130-104909-a04ebd6b.html pops
EF: pops
EFC: http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/30/game-20141130-115339-3e35f467.html AJD
Sorry I forgot to save some of the logs.
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qdread vs. antony
Tie 2-2
All the games, with the possible exception of the last, were fairly close, instructive, and fun!
Round 1, Base (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/30/game-20141130-155330-abac783e.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/30/game-20141130-155330-abac783e.html)): Antony won 6-5 by achievements. I built a giant board with Fermenting/Reformation but he scored most of the early achievements since I could not get any significant number of points together. At 5-5, I was expecting to win the next turn with Empire, but somehow he got Empire on his final turn with a depleted board and only two splayed piles, by the surprise of splaying purple up via Mass Media to get three castles from Mysticism.
Round 2, Echoes (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/30/game-20141130-161026-ffb74bda.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/30/game-20141130-161026-ffb74bda.html)): Qdread won 7-5 by achievements. Antony teched up rapidly in the early game with Candles and Magnifying Glass, while I built up cards in hand and on the board with Flute. Luckily I was able to steal his tech and force him to meld over his Gunpowder using Perfume. I scored with Alchemy to pick up some achievements, then shared a lot of dogmas with him and built a giant blue echo stack which I used to tech up to 8 and win.
Round 3, E/F (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/30/game-20141130-164417-d14ce0e8.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/30/game-20141130-164417-d14ce0e8.html)): Qdread won by score (Measurement). In the early game I shared dogmas like Perfume and Ice Skates to get figures and a large forecast. Antony used a War decree from Tigernmas to set me back but I already had a lot of cards from different ages so it did not hurt too badly. We both picked up standard achievements without fear of the "penalty." I was afraid Antony would go the distance with Almanac but he melded over it while I tried some shenanigans with Kepler to make large splayed piles. We both teched up to 9 and 10 with Slide Rule and Measurement so things were headed for a big finish. Even though Antony took away all the standard achievements with Laser, I was able to stay ahead in points and create a pile with 11 cards to win by Measurement.
Round 4, E/F/C (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/30/game-20141130-170324-f99ac38b.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201411/30/game-20141130-170324-f99ac38b.html)): Antony won 9-6 by achievements. Antony picked up a ton of age 1 achievements with Chopsticks, while I tried for the long game by repeatedly tucking 5 or 6 cards at a time with Toothbrush and splaying piles to try to draw good cities. Unfortunately I got too far behind in achievements and never got up to a high enough tech level to draw powerful enough figures and cities to do anything. It took a long time for him to close the game out (he did it finally by melding a city to automatically give him 2 achievements) but I was pretty far behind the whole time.
Great games!
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markusin 2-2 Mtom
base: Mtom wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/02/game-20141202-181821-5e1bf726.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/02/game-20141202-181821-5e1bf726.html)
echoes: markusin wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/02/game-20141202-185119-4b1cddb1.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/02/game-20141202-185119-4b1cddb1.html)
echoes + figures: Mtom wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/04/game-20141204-185030-032e2d72.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/04/game-20141204-185030-032e2d72.html)
echoes + figures + cities: markusin wins
Misclicked the return button while scoring achievements. DOn't have the log.
Base:
I had an extremely lucky start here, and it was looking bleak for my opponent. Nevertheless, he played on and managed to win with a bunch of achievements received once we teched up
Echoes:
Close one. Lots of back and forth plays against each other here.
Echoes + Figures:
I decreed war against Mtom with Tigernmas twice. Mtom melded some 2's at the right moment, avoiding total devastation after the decrees. I was trying to somehow make up for my achievement disadvantage by building up my board, but Mtom sealed the game with Universe acheived by Astronomy.
Echoes + Figures + Cities:
Mtom one again had the edge once we reached the higher ages. I was lucky enough to have been given Sejong the Great after playing Shuriken. This allowed me to Decree Advancement to draw a 6, Encyclopedia, which became the Age 7 Explosives when I tried to meld it over Sejong. I used Explosives to steal cards. I managed to sneak a cheap win by using Bicycle to score big while retrieving the whole bunch of low age cards I scored with Canal Building, then activated good Ol' Trolland Hill's effect by achieving Age 5 to achieve 4+ cards.
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qdread 2 - 2 ipofanes
Base: qdread wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/04/game-20141204-120003-fee6c7fd.html
My castles are checked by his 2nd turn City States. Unfortunately I have nothing but castle cards in hand, out of desperation I keep sharing Metalworking, feeding his score. Uncontested 12-turn win by qdread.
Base+echoes: qdread wins
(I forgot to save the game)
As soon as I lucked into Almanac I decided to play it out. In casual games I think it's too cheesy but this time it's for tourney points and, you know, it's in the rules. Lady Fortune disapproved of my one-dimensional approach and gave me non-bonus echoes until the age 4 echoes were depleted. Meanwhile, my opponent had teched out of reach.
Base+echoes+figures: ipofanes wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/04/game-20141204-123523-20d33a4c.html
I managed to achieve History on the red stack! No punches were pulled as we raked in basic achievements. At the end I was only one achievement short while qdread was on Industrialization autopilot. Even though he tucked 24 cards during his last move, he failed to uncover a third Clock for the win, leaving me the chance to foreshadow into Destiny for the win. Very lucky one for me.
Base+echoes+figures+no place: ipofanes wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/05/game-20141205-130634-64cc5760.html
We got stuck with our ancient cities in the low ages for, well, ages. As late as turn 9 I melded the first [3] card, but Sun Tzu warred away the Magnifying Glass. Code of Laws had me splaying left all my stacks, so my first (and last) invoking of Paper was given Archimedes' nod for 5 [5] cards! Qdread went for figures and achieved colorfully accordingly, but at the expense of sharing Maths and letting me tech into Age 6. He then managed to tech me down by overmelding my Classification with some shared Deodorant, drawing more leaders in the process. Printing Press got me back ahead into Age 7, and an endorsed Evolution got me further into Age 9 and Rock. Again, it was my inevitable movement to a soon game end against his more dynamic board which let him tech up to Age 10 using Quantum Theory, but in the end I could chosse between picking achievements 8 and 9 and uncovering Paper with Rock.
All in all, two sweeping victories by qdread followed by two heavily contested wins, one of which definitely fortunate, by me.
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Yes, Games 3 and 4 were very good games. I think the 2nd game showed the only flaw of the usually broken Almanac-based strategy: it does not draw any new 3 cards (or any cards at all, for that matter) into your hand, so if you keep activating it while the opponent has already teched beyond 3, you get stuck at level 3. Then you cannot make use of your large forecast or take any of the achievements besides Destiny despite a high score. It is very tempting, though.
Our game 2 log: http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/04/game-20141204-121325-b6b11272.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/04/game-20141204-121325-b6b11272.html)
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JimKam 4 - 0 ipoofanes
Base : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/06/game-20141206-210551-984cc330.html
E : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/06/game-20141206-212234-eaef8eec.html
EF : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/06/game-20141206-214649-25beaf76.html
EFC : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/06/game-20141206-215649-b29a3ee7.html
-Quite certain that ipofane can machinery on turn 7
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Seems that the probability of drawing from > Age 10 thanks to a lucky series of invocation of Almanac is not that high to begin with. If my maths doesn't fail me, it is 5.2 per cent per Echo 4 available to Almanac. Someone else teching up to a higher age doesn't hurt unless that someone manages to deplete an age of Echoes (with Industrializatin or Loom).
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-Quite certain that ipofane can machinery on turn 7
Yes; I was too focused on tucking into Monument with Soap that turn. Throwing a wrench into the inebriate Protestants engine with Machinery might have been better.
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1st half of MTom-antony
base (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/07/game-20141207-183800-33304d06.html) Antony wins by achievements
After metalworking gives me a quick 1, MTom mathes up to pirate code which enables him to grab ages 2 to 4. After getting a reformed monument, I decide to give him 5 as well in exchange of pirate code via banking. So he gets age 5, but I get 6, 7 and 8 in exchange, as well as a lucky late Empire.
echoes (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/07/game-20141207-185700-4c1661ca.html) Antony wins by achievements.
Again a scoring vs math start, but a lucky thermometer jumps me from age 6 to age 9, together with more pirate code tricks to grab achievements on the way. Some late board achievements (Empire & Universe) close the game.
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Third-round match: A hard-fought match between moomoo and qdread ends in. . . yet another tie! Very exciting and enjoyable games.
round 1 (moomoo wins 6-0 by achievements) http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/09/game-20141209-175530-d9e26e36.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/09/game-20141209-175530-d9e26e36.html): A six-nil shellacking where moomoo exploited Clothing, Wheel, and Masonry early on while I was stuck teching up with Math, ending up with the useless board of Feudalism and Printing Press. Moomoo made short work of me with Agriculture scoring.
round 2 (moomoo wins by score, achievements were 6-5 in favor of qdread)
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/09/game-20141209-182119-aec1c66a.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/09/game-20141209-182119-aec1c66a.html): I was frustrated by this one, as I scored a lot of points early on with Clothing and Perspective which also got me Monument. However, I could not quite get the 7th achievement. Moomoo built a giant forecast with Glassblowing, accessed it with Math, then teched up big time with Slide Rule, but I was able to equal the tech levels with Piano. At the end I was forced to try some desperate gambits with Thermometer and Hot Air Balloon to try to end the game on points, but all that ended up happening was me giving Moomoo Databases, which eviscerated my score pile, leaving the road open to quickly empty the 10's pile.
round 3 (qdread wins 8-6 by achievements) http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/09/game-20141209-184905-685cdaf7.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/09/game-20141209-184905-685cdaf7.html): This was a very back-and-forth affair. I tucked many cards early then set Moomoo back with a War decreed by Tigernmas. I had two inspiration effects in yellow so I kept milking them to tuck cards, luckily giving me Monument. Moomoo achieved the early standard achievements, and I inadvertently put Almanac on Moomoo's board. I was falling behind, but then teched up with Printing Press to level 8. We traded a few achievements and then Moomoo went on a binge with Watermill to get up to level 7 as well. Luckily I was able to cash in 3 achievements in one turn to win because my board was so built up by that point, but it was definitely a come-from-behind win.
round 4 (qdread wins by Radio Telescope, achievements were 6-3 in favor of qdread) http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/09/game-20141209-191547-801ec34d.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/09/game-20141209-191547-801ec34d.html): This was a truly ridiculous game, which I have come to expect with all three expansions in play. We began by frantically melding and drawing cities. Moomoo teched up quickly with Lever, while I built a big board by endorsing Deodorant and took a few early achievements. Moomoo used cities to tech up even higher while I tucked cards and decreed Expansion. After Moomoo scored Monument with a big Suburbia, I pulled some major shenanigans: I activated Palampore to splay purple right and expose the echo of the card that again came up huge: Piano! I shared Clock with Moomoo to draw an 8 with the echo, which ended up being Radio Telescope, and got Catherine the Great as a sharing bonus. Moomoo started to meld 10's and got a big points lead, but I melded Radio Telescope and Catherine the Great. This gave me so many lightbulbs that I even had to voluntarily return Atomic Theory from my board to drop me from 39 bulbs to 33. If I had not, I would have lost on points by activating Radio Telescope. As it was, I activated it once to draw 16 cards, meld A.I., and sleaze out a victory!
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qdread 2 - moomoo 2
: moomoo by achievements (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/09/game-20141209-175530-d9e26e36.html)
E : moomoo by score (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/09/game-20141209-182119-aec1c66a.html)
EF : qdread by achievements (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/09/game-20141209-184905-685cdaf7.html)
EFC : qdread by Radio Telescope (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/09/game-20141209-191547-801ec34d.html)
Game 1: a Masonry Monument followed by quick scoring from Clothing and Agriculture gives the early age achievements before teching can go anywhere, in large part due to unlucky Math draws
Game 2: Slide Rule techs up quickly [ delayed a bit by a Construction threat ], and despite some last minute heroics from Piano manages to empty the 10s just in time
Game 3: A surprise Heritage / Empire combination from the forecast ends what was otherwise a neck and neck game trading score achievements
Game 4: That pesky Piano! Sharing it gave both Radio Telescope and Catherine the Great, two great tastes that taste great together.
Aside from the first, each game was probably one turn from going the other way. I should wear a biosensor and plot my heart rate over the course of the games.
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markusin 2 - 2 AJD
Another tie!
Base: markusin wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/12/game-20141212-145001-1e57f7c7.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/12/game-20141212-145001-1e57f7c7.html)
Echoes: AJD wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/12/game-20141212-152515-07eb996c.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/12/game-20141212-152515-07eb996c.html)
Echoes + Figures: markusin
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/12/game-20141212-155110-fdf242df.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/12/game-20141212-155110-fdf242df.html)
Echoes + Figures + Cities: AJD wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/12/game-20141212-162722-167d382b.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/12/game-20141212-162722-167d382b.html)
These were some nice, close games.
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JimKam 2-2 antony
Base : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/13/game-20141213-220532-8476eb94.html
E : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/13/game-20141213-222058-aa8ec459.html
EF : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/13/game-20141213-224417-0fcffe30.html
EFC : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/13/game-20141213-230451-1c53a1e5.html
- Textbook example of "Never open with bouns 2/3"
- Got greedy, should just meld Saladin and jump to 7 at the beginning
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It just goes to show how difficult it is to beat anyone 3-1 across all the different expansions! I am impressed with those who did.
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I always wondered whether it is actually that bad to open a 2/3 bonus. Sure, you can run into Candles, but I think this is less bad than losing it to Flute, because you can always have a little luck later and catch back with Archery or Perfume (or at least keep developing your age 1 board), whereas losing your second card to Flute just sets you back a LOT in development.
Of course, what we'd need to answer that is to see stats of games where Candles jumps to age 3 vs games where Flute hits a bonus at trick one...
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Second half of my games against MTom
E/F (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/14/game-20141214-185254-538b0777.html) antony wins by achievements. Standard noodles opening in absence of cities (i.e. draw a bunch of 1's to start). MTom chooses not to go for repeated Almanacs and I use Ice Skates both offensively and to grab Destiny, then tech up via a lucky Printing Press. Deodorant sets me back but gives me Machinery and Reformation, certainly a decent trade. Repeated Machineries then let me decree ftw.
E/F/C (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/14/game-20141214-191138-be3874c5.html) antony wins by achievements. Look at MTom's last turn... I was nearly hoping he'd get a surprise 4th achievement via the forecast -- Peter the Great nearly killed me.
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JimKam 2 - 2 qdread (yea, 2-2 again)
Base : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/15/game-20141215-065906-5b11f716.html (qdread)
E : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/15/game-20141215-070630-656764a0.html (JimKam)
EF : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/15/game-20141215-072508-3f8d1955.html (qdread)
EFC : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/15/game-20141215-074013-d027a2ee.html (JimKam)
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Yes, it was another (fun) tie. Jimkam probably feels more robbed than I do, since I won the only close game we had and the others were basically blowouts. Here is a brief report.
Round 1 (qdread wins 6-1 by achievements) http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/15/game-20141215-065906-5b11f716.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/15/game-20141215-065906-5b11f716.html): Nothing to report, very standard and one-sided coin flip, er I mean base game.
Round 2 (jimkam wins 7-2 by achievements) http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/15/game-20141215-070630-656764a0.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/15/game-20141215-070630-656764a0.html): I got mowed down by a huge hand from which he repeatedly Soaped me.
Round 3 (qdread wins 8-7 by achievements) http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/15/game-20141215-072508-3f8d1955.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/15/game-20141215-072508-3f8d1955.html): The only close game we had! Interesting late play where I used Jeans to draw a base-set 6, getting Industrialization on the table. I also had Almanac with a echo 9 in the forecast. Thinking I could end the game with Almanac, Jimkam decreed War removing my 3 (Almanac). However I had a non-bonus 9 and ended the game by picking up specials with Industrialization. Whew!
Round 4 (jimkam wins by score, achievements were 6-4 in favor of jimkam) http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/15/game-20141215-074013-d027a2ee.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/15/game-20141215-074013-d027a2ee.html): I got slaughtered, again by a huge hand. He melded the whole thing with Leonardo, then Measuremented up to 9. I had no chance after that against such a massive card advantage and tech level.
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Yup, I had a look at the games, the Soaping looked fun.
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I always wondered whether it is actually that bad to open a 2/3 bonus. Sure, you can run into Candles, but I think this is less bad than losing it to Flute, because you can always have a little luck later and catch back with Archery or Perfume (or at least keep developing your age 1 board), whereas losing your second card to Flute just sets you back a LOT in development.
Of course, what we'd need to answer that is to see stats of games where Candles jumps to age 3 vs games where Flute hits a bonus at trick one...
This should go into an own thread.
Also, the games should be corrected for the general merit of Flute over Candles vs Puppet/Plumbing. I think two 2 x 2 tables for Flute and Candles should be built, and the Odds Ratioes of "Dogma Effect kicks" vs "win/loss" should be compared.
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Round 2 (jimkam wins 7-2 by achievements) http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/15/game-20141215-070630-656764a0.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/15/game-20141215-070630-656764a0.html): I got mowed down by a huge hand from which he repeatedly Soaped me.
In fact you will be in better shape if you do not Kobukson me on turn 12, as I can never dig the soap out
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I always wondered whether it is actually that bad to open a 2/3 bonus. Sure, you can run into Candles, but I think this is less bad than losing it to Flute, because you can always have a little luck later and catch back with Archery or Perfume (or at least keep developing your age 1 board), whereas losing your second card to Flute just sets you back a LOT in development.
Of course, what we'd need to answer that is to see stats of games where Candles jumps to age 3 vs games where Flute hits a bonus at trick one...
This should go into an own thread.
Also, the games should be corrected for the general merit of Flute over Candles vs Puppet/Plumbing. I think two 2 x 2 tables for Flute and Candles should be built, and the Odds Ratioes of "Dogma Effect kicks" vs "win/loss" should be compared.
Plus, you are hamstringing yourself if you meld the base set card since it will take you at least 2 turns to get rid of the echo in your hand and draw more age 1 echoes cards.
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Round 2 (jimkam wins 7-2 by achievements) http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/15/game-20141215-070630-656764a0.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/15/game-20141215-070630-656764a0.html): I got mowed down by a huge hand from which he repeatedly Soaped me.
In fact you will be in better shape if you do not Kobukson me on turn 12, as I can never dig the soap out
Yes, I made some mistakes with the stealing/attack cards in those games, mainly by not paying close enough attention to icon count. Lesson learned.
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antony 2- AJD 2
base (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/17/game-20141217-081736-47e10372.html) 6 achievements for me from a scoring, crappy board vs 4 AJD with a big one.
echoes (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/17/game-20141217-083449-74e506d6.html) Chopsticks shenanigans only let me reach 5 achievements while AJD just techs up to his 7th (with a helpful balloon).
e/f (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/17/game-20141217-090527-ab6dde0b.html) I give away one extra B. Roberts achievements in order to war him away with Saladin, then fall behind in score as AJD pianoes(!) away. I end the game with a lucky sequence: meld an 8, and computer via Franklin, use forecasted tuning fork to check the top base 10 and decide whether draw and execute a base 10 or an echoes 10 with computer. I see bio-e and check that I can just barely win 2-1 on leaves...
efc (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/17/game-20141217-093232-34922624.html) Two misreads make 1. me try a non-working demand and 2. AJD give me an achievement via Shivaji. A slightly unlucky shared physics from me set me back while AJD runs away with tech and wins 9-6.
A lot of interesting games, as usual.
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markusin 2-2 moomoo
Base: moomoo wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/17/game-20141217-135940-70b8c6ef.html
Echoes: markusin wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/17/game-20141217-143529-9ae8ad3a.html
Moomoo was playing noodles like crazy, but I managed to catch up on board and score somehow, then won on score with Measurements trying to draw an 11.
Echoes + Figures: markusin wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/17/game-20141217-150524-129ee38b.html
Multiple Machinery madness. That's one point for Candles over Flute.
Echoes + Figures + Cities: moomoo wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/17/game-20141217-151921-d3d70cd5.html
Moomoo teched from age 5 to age 7 on turn 9 with thermomometer, then from age 8 to age 11 on turn 10, winning by score.
These games were pretty wild, but the result is another tie.
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The efc game is pretty crazy indeed, and the shortest game so far...
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JimKam - moomoo 4-0
Base : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/27/game-20141227-214928-0a62cbd2.html
E : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/27/game-20141227-220641-891e8665.html
EF : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/27/game-20141227-221818-75826852.html
EFC : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201412/27/game-20141227-222438-bf8ec2b5.html
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I guess I should congratulate JimKam on the first Almanac win of the tournament and the fastest game so far (efc, 9.5 turns) but moomoo probably feels a bit robbed :)
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Mtom and I have played the first three games (with real-life cards)! I am ahead 2-1 and we will play the final game of our match shortly.
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qdread beats MTom 3-1.
Game 1 (base): MTom wins 6-3 by achievements. I fell behind early and tried to get a few standard achievements as spoilers but he got a special or two and stayed ahead in points.
Game 2 (echoes): qdread wins 7-0 by achievements. It was a lucky victory for me, where I milked the best early-age power cards to win.
Game 3 (echoes/figures): qdread wins 8-7 by achievements. What a great game! It was neck and neck. We both had huge score piles. MTom stole a lot of points with elevator and was about to win by using Industrialization for Monument. I managed to scrap out a factory advantage to prevent it. Just as he was poised to take the final standard achievement (level 8), I did a forced share to try to pull a Supremacy achievement out of my behind, but managed to draw Robert E. Lee and meld him to automatically achieve due to having 7 leaves.
Game 4 (the works): qdread wins 9-2 by achievements. Log http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/06/game-20150106-171627-ead33f64.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/06/game-20150106-171627-ead33f64.html) This game snowballed early since I just spammed endorsing Linguistics and Noodles. Due to unlucky icons MTom had no way to meet the pace of endorsements or counter any of my power cards. I was already at 7 achievements before I started exploiting a huge foreshadow pile full of 4's. Pretty lucky cards, leading to a one-sided win for me.
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antony 3 - 1 markusin
base: antony wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/13/game-20150113-190413-521d5b70.html
echoes: markusin wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/13/game-20150113-194108-e0d610fe.html
First time I see Television do anything. In fact, first time I see Television at all I think. I need to play more echoes.
echoes + figures: antony wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/13/game-20150113-201017-f6f74b89.html
echoes + figures + cities: antony wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/13/game-20150113-202621-cbe7f793.html
Saxomaphone! First Sax win I've seen too.
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qdread 4 - 0 markusin
Base: Qdread wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-171515-0adae349.html
Echoes: Qdread wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-172929-8ac97bdd.html
Echoes + Figures: Qdread wins
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-175102-d0e81cfa.html
Echoes + Figures + Cities: Qdread
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-182156-ac9cb43c.html
I got thoroughly beaten in all these games, but they were still good games overall.
Also had a really weird glitch with my firefox browser where it mixed up a few of the images in the innovation cards. See attached for the weirdness. Note how even the 3 and the 8 on the left hand side of where the age piles are have been swapped. This was only for the first game. After that I switched to Chrome and everything worked fine.
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qdread 4-0 markusin
Games 2 and 3 showcase the power of abusing Noodles, in game 2 to score a truckload of points, and in game 3 to draw figures while scoring, then get Expansion to splay yellow and further abuse a three-echo stack in the midgame. In fact, games 1 and 4 were a lot better, game 1 showcased the best of base set with a lot of back-and-forth due to the crown-stealing mechanic in many different ages, and game 4 was one of those slogs where everyone tries to build a giant tableau of 1's to be able to rack up achievements later.
Base: qdread 6-4 http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-171515-0adae349.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-171515-0adae349.html)
Echoes: qdread 7-0 http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-172929-8ac97bdd.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-172929-8ac97bdd.html)
EF: qdread 8-3 http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-175102-d0e81cfa.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-175102-d0e81cfa.html)
EFC: qdread 9-5 http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-182156-ac9cb43c.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-182156-ac9cb43c.html)
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moomoo 4 - ipofanes 0
: http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/13/game-20150113-104328-60deb28c.html (achievements)
E : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/13/game-20150113-110306-99b2262c.html (achievements)
EF : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/13/game-20150113-114336-4303fa1f.html (score)
EFC : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/13/game-20150113-130547-89620dcc.html (Shigeru Miyamoto!)
The first game was super close -- we were basically trading scoring and special achievements back and forth until I finally managed to snag age 8 to win the split 6-5. A well timed Enterprise allowed me to steal levels [ letting me achieve the higher ages ] in what otherwise was starting to look fairly bleak for me.
Early scoring in the second game let me grab and keep an achievement lead in an otherwise unremarkable game.
Despite the best efforts of a shared Ice Skates, my Math then Stethoscope then Bifocals+Photography let me tech all the way up to 10 while ipofanes was still at level 3. I was able to empty the 10s with GPS to win with a minor score advantage.
I definitely did not deserve to win the last game, but I jumped from 6 to 10 with Measurement, and managed to get Shigeru Miyamoto when ipofanes achieved his next-to-last achievement. He provided my only clock, giving me the special condition win.
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qdread 4-0 markusin
Games 2 and 3 showcase the power of abusing Noodles, in game 2 to score a truckload of points, and in game 3 to draw figures while scoring, then get Expansion to splay yellow and further abuse a three-echo stack in the midgame. In fact, games 1 and 4 were a lot better, game 1 showcased the best of base set with a lot of back-and-forth due to the crown-stealing mechanic in many different ages, and game 4 was one of those slogs where everyone tries to build a giant tableau of 1's to be able to rack up achievements later.
Base: qdread 6-4 http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-171515-0adae349.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-171515-0adae349.html)
Echoes: qdread 7-0 http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-172929-8ac97bdd.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-172929-8ac97bdd.html)
EF: qdread 8-3 http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-175102-d0e81cfa.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-175102-d0e81cfa.html)
EFC: qdread 9-5 http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-182156-ac9cb43c.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-182156-ac9cb43c.html)
I am looking at the record of game 4, which ends with "qdread inspires green, draws and melds chopsticks... and wins by achievements".
I can't figure out what happened, do you remember?
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qdread 4-0 markusin
Games 2 and 3 showcase the power of abusing Noodles, in game 2 to score a truckload of points, and in game 3 to draw figures while scoring, then get Expansion to splay yellow and further abuse a three-echo stack in the midgame. In fact, games 1 and 4 were a lot better, game 1 showcased the best of base set with a lot of back-and-forth due to the crown-stealing mechanic in many different ages, and game 4 was one of those slogs where everyone tries to build a giant tableau of 1's to be able to rack up achievements later.
Base: qdread 6-4 http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-171515-0adae349.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-171515-0adae349.html)
Echoes: qdread 7-0 http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-172929-8ac97bdd.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-172929-8ac97bdd.html)
EF: qdread 8-3 http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-175102-d0e81cfa.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-175102-d0e81cfa.html)
EFC: qdread 9-5 http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-182156-ac9cb43c.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-182156-ac9cb43c.html)
I am looking at the record of game 4, which ends with "qdread inspires green, draws and melds chopsticks... and wins by achievements".
I can't figure out what happened, do you remember?
Yes, I remember because I wasn't sure what happened myself. qdread had a white flag on the red stack, and inspired Bartholomew to remove my Gunpowder in order to have a larger red stack and gain the white flag achievement. The log doesn't show the Gunpowder being removed and the white flag achievement that was earned.
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I see.
Congrats to the winners, sorry to the losers, but I'm still happy we finally have some non-drawn games :)
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moomoo 4 - ipofanes 0
The first game was super close -- we were basically trading scoring and special achievements back and forth until I finally managed to snag age 8 to win the split 6-5. A well timed Enterprise allowed me to steal levels [ letting me achieve the higher ages ] in what otherwise was starting to look fairly bleak for me.
At the start I had all trumps in hand and quickly on the board (Metalworking, Clothing, Domestication, and City States) but moomoo could cut and reverse my early lead with Mapmaking and eventually with Gunpowder. After that, it got close.
Early scoring in the second game let me grab and keep an achievement lead in an otherwise unremarkable game.
I attempted to get an echo-rich board but moomoo quickly led in score and age, which proved to be decisive.
Despite the best efforts of a shared Ice Skates, my Math then Stethoscope then Bifocals+Photography let me tech all the way up to 10 while ipofanes was still at level 3. I was able to empty the 10s with GPS to win with a minor score advantage.
Definitely my worst game (my last Ice Skates efforts were desparation rather than anything else), for which I have the only excuse that my browser was unresponsive to the point the server warned me not to press <F5> again. We decided to take a break and play the last match somewhat later.
I definitely did not deserve to win the last game, but I jumped from 6 to 10 with Measurement, and managed to get Shigeru Miyamoto when ipofanes achieved his next-to-last achievement. He provided my only clock, giving me the special condition win.
Quite few dogmas were endorsed in this match. I wouldn't say the loss was undeserved as the only winning chance I saw was standard achievements, which are always a tossup if it gives your opponent an age 10 figure.
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qdread 4-0 markusin
Games 2 and 3 showcase the power of abusing Noodles, in game 2 to score a truckload of points, and in game 3 to draw figures while scoring, then get Expansion to splay yellow and further abuse a three-echo stack in the midgame. In fact, games 1 and 4 were a lot better, game 1 showcased the best of base set with a lot of back-and-forth due to the crown-stealing mechanic in many different ages, and game 4 was one of those slogs where everyone tries to build a giant tableau of 1's to be able to rack up achievements later.
Base: qdread 6-4 http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-171515-0adae349.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-171515-0adae349.html)
Echoes: qdread 7-0 http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-172929-8ac97bdd.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-172929-8ac97bdd.html)
EF: qdread 8-3 http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-175102-d0e81cfa.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-175102-d0e81cfa.html)
EFC: qdread 9-5 http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-182156-ac9cb43c.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/14/game-20150114-182156-ac9cb43c.html)
I am looking at the record of game 4, which ends with "qdread inspires green, draws and melds chopsticks... and wins by achievements".
I can't figure out what happened, do you remember?
Yes, I remember because I wasn't sure what happened myself. qdread had a white flag on the red stack, and inspired Bartholomew to remove my Gunpowder in order to have a larger red stack and gain the white flag achievement. The log doesn't show the Gunpowder being removed and the white flag achievement that was earned.
I believe it is technically correct not to show Gunpowder being scored, since the white flag becomes the 9th achievement the moment Gunpowder is removed from the red stack but before it is scored. It's still a little confusing, though.
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antony 3 - ipofanes 1
base (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/16/game-20150116-113458-dfc9ed73.html): Heavy scoring by coal gives me an achievement win.
echoes (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/16/game-20150116-115000-9db9d190.html): Chopsticks + Almanac = lots of score for ipofanes' win.
e/f (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/16/game-20150116-120713-09ee3ffc.html): Noodles (11 activations in my 11(!) first turns) > Flute for a bunch of achievements for me.
efc (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/16/game-20150116-122919-35110ded.html): I get an early tech start (including Almanac) while ipofanes gets a fat board, but not enough to catch up.
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antony 3 - ipofanes 1
echoes (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/16/game-20150116-115000-9db9d190.html): Chopsticks + Almanac = lots of score for ipofanes' win.
efc (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/16/game-20150116-122919-35110ded.html): I get an early tech start (including Almanac) while ipofanes gets a fat board, but not enough to catch up.
I don't think Almanac needed special mentioning in either game. I invoked its dogma thrice for a total score of 4, while antony didn't activate its dogma effect at all.
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JimKam 3 - MTom 1
base (2-6 achievement): http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/17/game-20150117-051819-01a26af9.html
- Made a mistake on turn 21, should not score skyscrapers, as i can't achieve 6/7
e (34-23 score): http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/17/game-20150117-052810-931c2f7e.html
ef (6+2 - 7 achievement): http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/17/game-20150117-054426-ed74ecb7.html
efc (7+2 - 4 achievement): http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/17/game-20150117-060616-88eacfa4.html
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qdread ties AJD 2-2
Unfortunately I needed a win to tie Antony for first in the standings, but could only manage a tie. I thought these games were a lot of fun though, especially the first two. Both of those were a little like chess matches in which we kept anticipating the opponent's next move, staying one step ahead, and took a large number of turns, which was fun. The base game in particular involved a lot of tactical shares and cards kept getting returned to deny the opponent a tech-up, I ended up taking that one. In the echoes game we both had lots of splays and echo effects, but I tried to rely too heavily on Clock which never really did much for me. In the third game I got taken to the proverbial woodshed, as AJD used the early age powerhouses, executing tactics perfectly. In the final game I used an early-scoring strat with Metalworking - I am appreciating its effectiveness with endorsement more and more - and Currency to build an early lead of achievements including Monument. Then I used a motley assortment of blue tech-up cards (Hangzhou and Ben Franklin) to get to level 7 and pick up the rest of the needed achievements.
base (qdread 6-4) http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/20/game-20150120-132713-2a2523e4.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/20/game-20150120-132713-2a2523e4.html)
echoes (ajd 7-4) http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/20/game-20150120-134737-a2cf52e0.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/20/game-20150120-134737-a2cf52e0.html)
EF (ajd 8-2) http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/21/game-20150121-070056-3d6862c3.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/21/game-20150121-070056-3d6862c3.html)
EFC (qdread 10-5, got 2 at once with Nobel) http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/21/game-20150121-071950-2c305569.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/21/game-20150121-071950-2c305569.html)
It was great playing with you all, let's do it again sometime!
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So I'm now waiting for AJD-JimKam: if JimKam wins or ties, he'll win the championship; otherwise AJD still has an outside chance of winning the championship (by winning all 12 sets of his remaining 3 matches) or tying with me (by winning 11 sets).
I also kept track of wins in each separate category -- right now, if my calculations are correct, qdread has won the E/F championship, and the other 3 are still undecided. Listing only those who can win, in the format [wins + number of remaining games]
Base: antony (6+0), moomoo (5+1, won H2H), MTom (3+3, would share tiebreak)
Echoes: JimKam (5+1), AJD (4+3) <- that'll be decided by their H2H match too
E/F: qdread (5+0) won H2H against JimKam (4+1) and MTom (2+3)
E/F/C: JimKam (5+1), AJD (2+3) -- antony (5+0) lost H2H against both
I'd be happy to restart a championship right after this one is finished, I think this is a lot of fun indeed.
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So I'm now waiting for AJD-JimKam: if JimKam wins or ties, he'll win the championship; otherwise AJD still has an outside chance of winning the championship (by winning all 12 sets of his remaining 3 matches) or tying with me (by winning 11 sets).
Oh man, that's a lot of pressure I'm under, isn't it.
JimKam, you there? How's Saturday looking for you?
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I'm just sayin'... good luck!
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Saturday will be ok
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Saturday will be ok
Let me know when!
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JimKam 3 - 1 AJD
Base (6-0) : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/24/game-20150124-195439-1c6b66ec.html
Score 10 after metalwork, proceed to beatdown
E (0-7) : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/24/game-20150124-200748-1ba52866.html
Watermill into a large board, proceed to beatdown
EF (Caresse Crosby) : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/24/game-20150124-203214-0f5f7ecf.html
This game is brought to you by this very bad taste joke in the attachment
or you can view it here : http://imgur.com/s4wlPn2
EFC (9-5) : http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201501/24/game-20150124-205016-2ee0cd61.html
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Congratulations to JimKam for winning the first Innovation championship with 4 wins and 3 draws ahead of myself (3 wins, 4 draws), as well as the E/F/C division (6 wins!), also ahead of myself (5 wins). Meanwhile, AJD has won the game he needed to clinch the Echoes division (5 wins, 2 games to go) ahead of JimKam (5 wins, lost to AJD). As a reminder, qdread has won the E/F division (5 wins) ahead of JimKam (5 wins, lost to JimKam).
I'm now waiting for MTom to complete his matches to decide the Base division.