Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: sudgy on November 12, 2014, 04:03:08 pm
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(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
Alright, so whether a Duration stays out is always confusing. Here are all of my questions (I think I have the answers but I'm just making sure):
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?
2. For all of those Durations, Throne Room always stays with them, right?
3. If you play Haven with no cards in hand or deck/discard, you don't put a card on the Haven, it get's discarded like normal, right?
4. If you play Throne Room with Haven with one card left in your hand/deck/discard and are only able to put one card on the Haven, the Haven stays out but the Throne Room doesn't, right?
5. If you play Throne Room on Tactician, the Tactician stays out but the Throne Room doesn't, right?
6. Same thing with Outpost?
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That all seems correct, but I think #1 is a weird thing to specifically ask. It's just: does this card set up an effect for a later turn? If so, it stays out. Otherwise, it doesn't.
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That all seems correct, but I think #1 is a weird thing to specifically ask. It's just: does this card set up an effect for a later turn? If so, it stays out. Otherwise, it doesn't.
Well, it's more for the program I'm making. If there's never a time Wharf doesn't stay out, do I need to bother in my program trying to check if Wharf needs to stay? At the part that checks whether or not to discard the Durations it will first see if it's one of those three cards.
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That all seems correct, but I think #1 is a weird thing to specifically ask. It's just: does this card set up an effect for a later turn? If so, it stays out. Otherwise, it doesn't.
Well, it's more for the program I'm making. If there's never a time Wharf doesn't stay out, do I need to bother in my program trying to check if Wharf needs to stay? At the part that checks whether or not to discard the Durations it will first see if it's one of those three cards.
I guess it seems better if you just do that as part of playing the card? Have it do this-turn effects, then set a flag on the card for it to stay out if it's going to do something on a future turn. Definitely don't make the next-turn effect dependent on the card being in play.
I don't know how your program works, so this is all just guesswork.
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6. Same thing with Outpost?
Shouldn't TR stay out to show that you only draw three cards at the end of your extra turn? It's still playing Outpost twice, and while Outpost has no effect on the next turn, it has one on the turn it's played the second time.
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6. Same thing with Outpost?
Shouldn't TR stay out to show that you only draw three cards at the end of your extra turn? It's still playing Outpost twice, and while Outpost has no effect on the next turn, it has one on the turn it's played the second time.
If you Throne Room Outpost on a normal turn, it tells you to only draw 3 cards in this turn's Clean-up phase twice. The second play doesn't stack. It does not reach into next turn's Clean-up phase.
If you Throne Room Outpost on an Outpost turn, it tells you to only draw 3 cards in this turn's Clean-up phase twice. The second play doesn't stack. It does not reach into next turn's Clean-up phase.
Either way, the Throne Room isn't doing anything and shouldn't stay in play.
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Another question: If I've Throne Roomed a Duration, next turn I can choose to resolve it once, then another card (say a Princed forced-trasher), then back to the second time resolving it, right?
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Also, is there any start-of-turn effect other than Prince that you care about the order you do them in?
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Also, is there any start-of-turn effect other than Prince that you care about the order you do them in?
no
can't answer the first question.
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Another thing to consider: Chained TR/KC + Durations.
From what I understand, if you TR a TR and play one duration and one non-duration, then one TR stays out and one gets collected at end of turn. But if you TR a TR and play two different durations, then both TRs stay out. If you KC a KC (or TR), and two or more KCs play durations, then both KCs stay out. Do not neglect to consider the case of triple-(or-greater)-TR, and also do not neglect that duration leaf nodes may occur at different tree depths.
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I thought I remember hearing that just the latest TR/KC stays out... Is there anywhere Donald says what you said?
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Another thing to consider: Chained TR/KC + Durations.
From what I understand, if you TR a TR and play one duration and one non-duration, then one TR stays out and one gets collected at end of turn. But if you TR a TR and play two different durations, then both TRs stay out. If you KC a KC (or TR), and two or more KCs play durations, then both KCs stay out. Do not neglect to consider the case of triple-(or-greater)-TR, and also do not neglect that duration leaf nodes may occur at different tree depths.
This is nonsense. In both of your first two examples, only one TR stays out. The rule is that KCs and TRs only stay out if they directly played a duration card. If you play KC 1 on KC 2, it doesn't matter what KC 2 does: KC 1 will never be left out in the duration area.
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Another question: If I've Throne Roomed a Duration, next turn I can choose to resolve it once, then another card (say a Princed forced-trasher), then back to the second time resolving it, right?
Right.
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Another question: If I've Throne Roomed a Duration, next turn I can choose to resolve it once, then another card (say a Princed forced-trasher), then back to the second time resolving it, right?
I'd say yes, because back on your previous turn you played the Duration twice, which created two separate "At the start of your next turn" effects, so by that point it's functionally as though you played two separate cards.
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Wait a minute here...
1. Outpost always stays out under any circumstances, doesn't it? Even if it can't let you take an extra turn, because you've already had 2 turns in a row, Outpost still stays out to remind you to draw 3 cards instead of 5. So only Haven and Tactician have the possibility of not staying out, don't they?
2. I thought a Throne Room that was used to play a Duration would always stay out, even if the second play of the Duration doesn't have an additional effect (TR+Tactician)? Has Donald said otherwise; that with TR+Tactician the Throne Room doesn't stay out?
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1. The first Outpost during your turn always stays out, indeed. If you play two Outposts in the same turn, I have no idea whether it stays out (apparently not according to others). I can imagine both: the second outpost does have an effect (draw 3 instead of 5 cards), but that effects happens to coincide with another effect, so it's not really an extra effect.
2. Yes, Donald has specifically said that with TR + Tactician, the TR doesn't stay out, since the second play of Tactician didn't have an effect.
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1. The first Outpost during your turn always stays out, indeed. If you play two Outposts in the same turn, I have no idea whether it stays out (apparently not according to others). I can imagine both: the second outpost does have an effect (draw 3 instead of 5 cards), but that effects happens to coincide with another effect, so it's not really an extra effect.
Outpost doesn't have enough information to ever go away early, even barring the hand size thing; the check for "would this be a 3rd consecutive turn" happens right when that turn is about to happen, which is after we already failed to discard Outpost. It could be that some other card (e.g. Possession) caused an extra turn for someone else to happen that squeezed in-between and allowed both Outpost turns to happen.
Tactician meanwhile already "knows" that it won't do anything later if you didn't discard any cards - no future event was set up. Throne Room goes away if it's not actually representing something extra to happen later, and this is addressed in the rulebook, albeit tersely.
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So all Outposts always stay out, and all Throne Rooms which played an Outpost also always stay out.
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So all Outposts always stay out, and all Throne Rooms which played an Outpost also always stay out?
It's tempting to edit your post so that's a period. Yes, since Outpost always stays out, Throne on one must also.
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It's tempting to edit your post so that's a period.
Ok :)
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So all Outposts always stay out, and all Throne Rooms which played an Outpost also always stay out?
It's tempting to edit your post so that's a period. Yes, since Outpost always stays out, Throne on one must also.
If you played more than 1 Outpost in a turn, or Throne Roomed (or King's Courted or Processioned) an Outpost, will it be cleaned up in the Outpost turn, or will it stay out and only draw 3 cards in the clean up phase in the Outpost turn?
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(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?
Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck
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(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?
Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck
Ah, right. Then the effect still happens, but the Throne Room will be discarded if you played a Throne Room on it, right?
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(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?
Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck
Scheme does not affect how long a Duration card remains in play.
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(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?
Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck
Scheme does not affect how long a Duration card remains in play.
Oh, right, Scheme can't choose first-turn durations. I forgot about that.
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(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?
Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck
Scheme does not affect how long a Duration card remains in play.
Oh, right, Scheme can't choose first-turn durations. I forgot about that.
Oh I didn't know that. Ineteresting
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(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?
Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck
You can't do that. Scheme moves cards to the top of your deck only if they are being discarded from play: if you play a Duration card on the same turn as a Scheme, you can attempt to Scheme it back on top of your deck but you will fail, because it never gets discarded.
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(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?
Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck
Scheme does not affect how long a Duration card remains in play.
Oh, right, Scheme can't choose first-turn durations. I forgot about that.
Oh I didn't know that. Ineteresting
Technically you can choose a first-turn Duration, but it's a bad idea because nothing happens if you do.
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(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?
Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck
Scheme does not affect how long a Duration card remains in play.
Oh, right, Scheme can't choose first-turn durations. I forgot about that.
Oh I didn't know that. Ineteresting
Technically you can choose a first-turn Duration, but it's a bad idea because nothing happens if you do.
Edge Case Challenge: Find a reason why you would do this.
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If you played more than 1 Outpost in a turn, or Throne Roomed (or King's Courted or Processioned) an Outpost, will it be cleaned up in the Outpost turn, or will it stay out and only draw 3 cards in the clean up phase in the Outpost turn?
The card-drawing applies to the turn you play Outpost, just that turn. Any turn you play Outpost, you only draw 3 cards in that clean-up.
The point at which Outpost checks to see if it would give you an extra turn or not is after clean-up - after cards have been discarded already. So any played Outpost stays out until your next turn.
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If you played more than 1 Outpost in a turn, or Throne Roomed (or King's Courted or Processioned) an Outpost, will it be cleaned up in the Outpost turn, or will it stay out and only draw 3 cards in the clean up phase in the Outpost turn?
The card-drawing applies to the turn you play Outpost, just that turn. Any turn you play Outpost, you only draw 3 cards in that clean-up.
The point at which Outpost checks to see if it would give you an extra turn or not is after clean-up - after cards have been discarded already. So any played Outpost stays out until your next turn.
This isn't exactly what I asked. Or at least it wasn't what I meant to ask. I'll try asking it in some different ways:
If you play more than 1 in your normal turn, will all of them get cleaned up in your Outpost turn (which is your next turn)? Or will all except 1 of them think that they can still give you an extra turn after the Outpost turn?
If you play more than 1 Possession, then you get 1 extra turn for each of them. When does the Outposts know that this isn't the case for them? In the Outpost turn, will all except 1 of them think they they can still give you an extra turn, or does they know that you can't get more turns after the one you've already gotten? Do they all give you the extra turn at the same time, so they know you don't get more, and if this is the case, then why is it different from Possession?
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This isn't exactly what I asked. Or at least it wasn't what I meant to ask. I'll try asking it in some different ways:
If you play more than 1 in your normal turn, will all of them get cleaned up in your Outpost turn (which is your next turn)? Or will all except 1 of them think that they can still give you an extra turn after the Outpost turn?
If you play more than 1 Possession, then you get 1 extra turn for each of them. When does the Outposts know that this isn't the case for them? In the Outpost turn, will all except 1 of them think they they can still give you an extra turn, or does they know that you can't get more turns after the one you've already gotten? Do they all give you the extra turn at the same time, so they know you don't get more, and if this is the case, then why is it different from Possession?
Possession doesn't have a limit on how many turns it can give you, and Outpost does. This is just from the card texts; the limit on Outpost, the lack of it on Possession. I think that covers the difference from Possession for you?
When two things try to happen at the same time, you resolve them one at a time. You resolve one Outpost, then another. Resolving Outpost means taking an extra turn. The card is terse, we have to figure everything out from "Take an extra turn after this one." I am interpreting the timing as in-between turns, and the effect as taking another turn right then, rather than say setting up some counter of number of turns to take afterwards.
So, you resolve an Outpost. You take a turn or fail to. The other Outpost is just sitting there through all of this. After that Outpost fails, or after that Outpost succeeds and you take a turn and it's after clean-up and back to being in-between turns, you resolve another Outpost. Outpost stays out until resolved.
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I was under the impression that the intent of the rules was that any card—regardless of the Duration type—stays in play until Clean-up on the last turn it does something. If Outpost's effect is the entire turn it creates, rather than just an instantaneous setup, then it stands to reason that Possession should also remain in play until the turn(s) it creates are over.
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if you play 5 outposts on a turn does it take 5 turns for each outpost to try to resolve and then fail? or after the first outpost turn do they all fail right away and go back into the discard pile.
Man so many super edge cases that are never going to occur in my games but for some reason I just really want to know.
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I was under the impression that the intent of the rules was that any card—regardless of the Duration type—stays in play until Clean-up on the last turn it does something.
That was totally the intention; however via the rulebook rules, only Duration cards stay out.
If Outpost's effect is the entire turn it creates, rather than just an instantaneous setup, then it stands to reason that Possession should also remain in play until the turn(s) it creates are over.
Outpost causes an extra turn to happen, but it has nothing left to track once that turn starts, and goes away during the extra turn.
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if you play 5 outposts on a turn does it take 5 turns for each outpost to try to resolve and then fail? or after the first outpost turn do they all fail right away and go back into the discard pile.
Man so many super edge cases that are never going to occur in my games but for some reason I just really want to know.
I am as always just trying to interpret the rulebook and card texts as best as I can, and man I'm not checking what the online version does, or complaining if it doesn't do this, leave them alone, they are busy.
If you play 5 Outposts (after some other player's turn), they all stay out and you take another turn (with a 3-card hand). That turn that one Outpost goes away; it's done. The other four sit there, confusing everybody, until the clean-up phase of the next turn (which normally won't be yours) and go away then. They don't "know" they aren't doing anything until after clean-up on the extra turn, so they can't be discarded that turn.
The rulebook says, "Leave the card in front of you until the Clean-up Phase of the last turn in which it does something (discard it before drawing for the following turn)." This is impossible; clean-up is already over before Outpost is done doing things (even when what it's doing is trying to and failing to produce an extra turn). My ruling is to discard it in the next clean-up phase; clean-up is when we discard stuff from play. It won't be your turn but I would discard it then anyway. The original intention was for cards to be discarded the last turn they did something, even when it wasn't your turn (and the precursor to Cutpurse was discarded during someone else's turn). The rules assume the card will go away on your turn but it's normal for the main body of the rules to focus on normal cases rather than exceptions. The basic rule has a parenthetical that assumes it's your turn and well, I had to make a ruling and there it is.
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So Sudgy, will your program be the first one to handle Outpost correctly? :)
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So Sudgy, will your program be the first one to handle Outpost correctly? :)
Probably...
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I think I've gotten my answer now :)
But this means that KC-KC-Outpost-Masq doesn't work. You've played 3 Outposts, but at the time you reach clean-up phase of your Outpost turn, only 1 of the Outposts have tried to give you an extra turn. So at that time you can't clean up KC-Outpost, and you will only draw KC-Masq. After your opponents turn you'll have KC and Outpost in your deck.
Edit: Village, Outpost, KC-Masq does work.
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Just one more question from me:
If you play Throne Room-Outpost in your normal turn, can you then choose which of them you clean up in your Outpost turn?
I would think yes, because when your normal turn is over, you can choose whether to resolve the normal Outpost or the Throne Room generated Outpost first.
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Just one more question from me:
If you play Throne Room-Outpost in your normal turn, can you then choose which of them you clean up in your Outpost turn?
I would think yes, because when your normal turn is over, you can choose whether to resolve the normal Outpost or the Throne Room generated Outpost first.
I would say yes, you can pick the order of duration cards. In the same way you can choose the order of princed cards + duration cards at the start of your turn.
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If you play Throne Room-Outpost in your normal turn, can you then choose which of them you clean up in your Outpost turn?
I would think yes, because when your normal turn is over, you can choose whether to resolve the normal Outpost or the Throne Room generated Outpost first.
Yes, you pick which Outpost to resolve first.
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(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?
Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck
Scheme does not affect how long a Duration card remains in play.
Oh, right, Scheme can't choose first-turn durations. I forgot about that.
Oh I didn't know that. Ineteresting
Technically you can choose a first-turn Duration, but it's a bad idea because nothing happens if you do.
Edge Case Challenge: Find a reason why you would do this.
That's easy. You don't want to scheme any card, because anything else would be worse than a new 5 cards. You don't want the Scheme again because your opponent is heavy on Militia, so a contrip hurts with knowing what to discard.
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(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?
Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck
Scheme does not affect how long a Duration card remains in play.
Oh, right, Scheme can't choose first-turn durations. I forgot about that.
Oh I didn't know that. Ineteresting
Technically you can choose a first-turn Duration, but it's a bad idea because nothing happens if you do.
Edge Case Challenge: Find a reason why you would do this.
That's easy. You don't want to scheme any card, because anything else would be worse than a new 5 cards. You don't want the Scheme again because your opponent is heavy on Militia, so a contrip hurts with knowing what to discard.
But Scheme is a "may", not a "must". You can always choose to scheme nothing. I can't imagine any scenario where scheming a first-turn duration is different from scheming nothing at all,
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(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?
Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck
Scheme does not affect how long a Duration card remains in play.
Oh, right, Scheme can't choose first-turn durations. I forgot about that.
Oh I didn't know that. Ineteresting
Technically you can choose a first-turn Duration, but it's a bad idea because nothing happens if you do.
Edge Case Challenge: Find a reason why you would do this.
That's easy. You don't want to scheme any card, because anything else would be worse than a new 5 cards. You don't want the Scheme again because your opponent is heavy on Militia, so a contrip hurts with knowing what to discard.
But Scheme is a "may", not a "must". You can always choose to scheme nothing. I can't imagine any scenario where scheming a first-turn duration is different from scheming nothing at all,
I agree. There's the obvious cases where you want to topdeck a Tactician or Haven that failed to do it's share this turn, but when talking about Durations that would actually stay out, i see absolutely nothing.
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But Scheme is a "may", not a "must". You can always choose to scheme nothing. I can't imagine any scenario where scheming a first-turn duration is different from scheming nothing at all,
Advisor's Pal: Action - Duration, $5
Now and at the start of your next turn, +1 Card and +$1.
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When you choose this card, gain a Gold.
Strict Peddler: Action, $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
This turn, optional abilities are mandatory.
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Strict Peddler - Action, $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
This turn, optional abilities are mandatory.
But what if i reveal King's Court with Golem and don't want to use it? ;)
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If you play Throne Room-Outpost in your normal turn, can you then choose which of them you clean up in your Outpost turn?
I would think yes, because when your normal turn is over, you can choose whether to resolve the normal Outpost or the Throne Room generated Outpost first.
Yes, you pick which Outpost to resolve first.
Maybe I am just confused here (which seems likely) but it doesn't seem like there is a difference between the "2" Outposts. You play Throne Room, and it plays Outpost 2 times. There isn't a "normal Outpost" and a "Throne Room generated Outpost" is there? The Throne room played both Outposts. It stays out to remind you that you played it twice, but you don't have a "normal" one. I suppose the two "take an extra turn"s happen at the same time (after this one), so choosing which one to resolve first makes sense, but it shouldn't affect the outcome right?
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If you play Throne Room-Outpost in your normal turn, can you then choose which of them you clean up in your Outpost turn?
I would think yes, because when your normal turn is over, you can choose whether to resolve the normal Outpost or the Throne Room generated Outpost first.
Yes, you pick which Outpost to resolve first.
Maybe I am just confused here (which seems likely) but it doesn't seem like there is a difference between the "2" Outposts. You play Throne Room, and it plays Outpost 2 times. There isn't a "normal Outpost" and a "Throne Room generated Outpost" is there? The Throne room played both Outposts. It stays out to remind you that you played it twice, but you don't have a "normal" one. I suppose the two "take an extra turn"s happen at the same time (after this one), so choosing which one to resolve first makes sense, but it shouldn't affect the outcome right?
Yes, Throne Room played both Outposts. Both plays of Outpost are that one Outpost card, facilitated by Throne Room. So you don't discard Outpost until a confusingly late point as previously discussed. That leaves the question of what your options are for discarding Throne Room.
The Seaside rulebook says (going from a text file, feel free to consult a printed rulebook): "If you play or modify a Duration card with another card, that other card also stays in front of you until it's no longer doing anything. For example if you play Throne Room on Merchant Ship, both cards stay in play until the Clean-up phase of your next turn. The Throne Room stays in play to remind you that you are getting the effect of Merchant Ship twice on that next turn."
[That "or modify" is there because once it seemed like I might conceivably make a card like "reveal this when you play a card, to add 1 to numbers in that card's text."]
So the question is, at what point is Throne Room "no longer doing anything." As always I just want the ruling to match the rulebook as well as it can.
Throne Room played Outpost twice. You could say that Throne Room is "doing anything" until the card has resolved twice; or that it's "doing anything" until the card has resolved once. I am tentatively going with, it's "doing anything" until the card has resolved twice.
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1) If you Throne Room a Duration, the Throne Room stays out, and you double the Duration next turn.
2) If you Throne Room a Throne Room one or two Durations, only the Throne Room that immediately double a Duration stays out - the innermost Throne Room. All other Throne Rooms are discarded.
3) And if you Procession a Duration, the Procession stays out, though the Duration is trashed, and you double the Duration next turn.
What if you Procession a Procession that is doubling a Duration?
Going by 2), the first Procession should be discarded. But now you have a Duration effect coming up on your next turn that isn't being marked by either its doubler or the card itself.
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What if you Procession a Procession that is doubling a Duration?
Going by 2), the first Procession should be discarded. But now you have a Duration effect coming up on your next turn that isn't being marked by either its doubler or the card itself.
Yes, Procession can result in an upcoming effect that isn't tracked by anything. I knew Procession was an issue with duration cards but decided to do the card anyway. Try not to forget any unresolved duration effects, that's my advice. You can also have multiple Possessions you have to remember with no tracking. And the names are similar - Procession, Possession. That can't be a coincidence.
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But Scheme is a "may", not a "must". You can always choose to scheme nothing. I can't imagine any scenario where scheming a first-turn duration is different from scheming nothing at all,
Advisor's Pal: Action - Duration, $5
Now and at the start of your next turn, +1 Card and +$1.
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When you choose this card, gain a Gold.
Strict Peddler: Action, $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
This turn, optional abilities are mandatory.
(Can't believe I didn't see this 2 weeks ago)
Are these the previews for the new set?? ;D
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But Scheme is a "may", not a "must". You can always choose to scheme nothing. I can't imagine any scenario where scheming a first-turn duration is different from scheming nothing at all,
Advisor's Pal: Action - Duration, $5
Now and at the start of your next turn, +1 Card and +$1.
----------
When you choose this card, gain a Gold.
Strict Peddler: Action, $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
This turn, optional abilities are mandatory.
(Can't believe I didn't see this 2 weeks ago)
Are these the previews for the new set?? ;D
Not at all! Donald wouldn't leak cards. The real cards are...
Strict Advisor: Action - Duration, $5
Now and at the start of your next turns, +1 Card and +1$.
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While this card is in play, optional abilities are mandatory.
Peddler's pal: Action, $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
------------
When you choose this card, gain a Gold.
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Peddler's pal: Action, $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
------------
When you choose this card, gain a Gold.
Peddler's Pal, i choose you!
*throws Pokéball*
*gains Gold*
Peddle! Peddle!
*Peddler's Pal draws a card, gets an action and provides a coin*
*It's very effective*
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So, finally actually programming Outpost, I have a couple things:
1. You were saying that when you Throne an Outpost, when the time comes you can choose which Outpost to resolve first. They both still stay out though until later and they're both discarded at the same time still, right?
2. I'm not quite sure the ruling saying that if you play multiple Outposts that the others stay out that long is the best interpretation. Outpost says to "Take an extra turn after this one." So, if you played five Outposts, they would all be fighting to take an extra turn, but only this next one. After that turn starts, all of those Outposts are done because they aren't trying to take an extra turn, but just an extra turn after the one they were played on. Since they have nothing more to do, they should get discarded at the next clean-up phase (the Outpost turn's). If you play an Outpost on an extra turn (Outpost or otherwise), then they stay out until the next player's clean-up phase like you said.
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I think that depends on interpretation, because, well, if I play two Outposts, then after the first Outpost turn is still "after this one". Just because the first one resolved doesn't mean the other one doesn't still want to resolve. Possession also says "after this one" but it can still make more than one turn happen. Outpost just fails if it tries (and well, Possession isn't a duration, so they aren't really quite the same I guess, but anyway...).
In another way: There are two Outposts resolving at the same time, so you pick which one is first. You resolve the one you picked to be first, and then you resolve the other one. The first one causes you to take a turn between those things happening, but the resolution of the second Outpost is still pending.
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Remember that if you play an Outpost on your Outpost turn, then you still have to draw only 3 cards in your clean up phase.
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1. You were saying that when you Throne an Outpost, when the time comes you can choose which Outpost to resolve first. They both still stay out though until later and they're both discarded at the same time still, right?
Both stay as prev. discussed.
2. I'm not quite sure the ruling saying that if you play multiple Outposts that the others stay out that long is the best interpretation. Outpost says to "Take an extra turn after this one." So, if you played five Outposts, they would all be fighting to take an extra turn, but only this next one. After that turn starts, all of those Outposts are done because they aren't trying to take an extra turn, but just an extra turn after the one they were played on. Since they have nothing more to do, they should get discarded at the next clean-up phase (the Outpost turn's). If you play an Outpost on an extra turn (Outpost or otherwise), then they stay out until the next player's clean-up phase like you said.
No no no. You are reading stuff into "after this one." Possession says "after this one" but all the turns happen.
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2. I'm not quite sure the ruling saying that if you play multiple Outposts that the others stay out that long is the best interpretation. Outpost says to "Take an extra turn after this one." So, if you played five Outposts, they would all be fighting to take an extra turn, but only this next one. After that turn starts, all of those Outposts are done because they aren't trying to take an extra turn, but just an extra turn after the one they were played on. Since they have nothing more to do, they should get discarded at the next clean-up phase (the Outpost turn's). If you play an Outpost on an extra turn (Outpost or otherwise), then they stay out until the next player's clean-up phase like you said.
No no no. You are reading stuff into "after this one." Possession says "after this one" but all the turns happen.
Worth noting that MTG also says "Take an extra turn after this one", but if you play 2 Time Walks, you still get 2 extra turns.
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2. I'm not quite sure the ruling saying that if you play multiple Outposts that the others stay out that long is the best interpretation. Outpost says to "Take an extra turn after this one." So, if you played five Outposts, they would all be fighting to take an extra turn, but only this next one. After that turn starts, all of those Outposts are done because they aren't trying to take an extra turn, but just an extra turn after the one they were played on. Since they have nothing more to do, they should get discarded at the next clean-up phase (the Outpost turn's). If you play an Outpost on an extra turn (Outpost or otherwise), then they stay out until the next player's clean-up phase like you said.
No no no. You are reading stuff into "after this one." Possession says "after this one" but all the turns happen.
Technically, "after this one" is transitive. The turn after the turn after this one still is "after this one". Just not immediately.
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Alright, one more question I just thought of:
You play TR-Outpost and then another Outpost in one turn. One of those Outposts made you get an extra turn, and the other ones (thinking of three Outposts because the TR made the first Outpost try twice) didn't, and one gets discarded at the end of the Outpost turn. You get to choose which one made the extra turn, and if you choose the TRed one, it doesn't get discarded (because it was played twice and its other self needs to stay out to try again), and if you choose the non-TRed one, it does get discarded (as usual). So, the question is, when do you decide which one you discard? Do you decide at the end of the first turn, when you're trying to get another turn, or when you would discard them at the end of your Outpost turn? I would think it's at the end of the first turn, but I'm not 100% sure.
That's a really confusing question... Hopefully you can get it...
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You play TR-Outpost and then another Outpost in one turn. One of those Outposts made you get an extra turn, and the other ones (thinking of three Outposts because the TR made the first Outpost try twice) didn't, and one gets discarded at the end of the Outpost turn. You get to choose which one made the extra turn, and if you choose the TRed one, it doesn't get discarded (because it was played twice and its other self needs to stay out to try again), and if you choose the non-TRed one, it does get discarded (as usual). So, the question is, when do you decide which one you discard? Do you decide at the end of the first turn, when you're trying to get another turn, or when you would discard them at the end of your Outpost turn? I would think it's at the end of the first turn, but I'm not 100% sure.
At the end of the turn when you played them all, they are all trying to do something at the same time, so you pick which one to resolve first, then. Then that one will go away ahead of the others.
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You play TR-Outpost and then another Outpost in one turn. One of those Outposts made you get an extra turn, and the other ones (thinking of three Outposts because the TR made the first Outpost try twice) didn't, and one gets discarded at the end of the Outpost turn. You get to choose which one made the extra turn, and if you choose the TRed one, it doesn't get discarded (because it was played twice and its other self needs to stay out to try again), and if you choose the non-TRed one, it does get discarded (as usual). So, the question is, when do you decide which one you discard? Do you decide at the end of the first turn, when you're trying to get another turn, or when you would discard them at the end of your Outpost turn? I would think it's at the end of the first turn, but I'm not 100% sure.
At the end of the turn when you played them all, they are all trying to do something at the same time, so you pick which one to resolve first, then. Then that one will go away ahead of the others.
Alright, thanks, that's what I thought.
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But do the Outposts that remain in play without causing extra turns get discarded during the next player's Clean-up (like Duplicate), or during your next Clean-up?
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I'm pretty sure they get discarded on your opponents turn.
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They get discarded during your opponents clean up phase.
if you play 5 outposts on a turn does it take 5 turns for each outpost to try to resolve and then fail? or after the first outpost turn do they all fail right away and go back into the discard pile.
Man so many super edge cases that are never going to occur in my games but for some reason I just really want to know.
I am as always just trying to interpret the rulebook and card texts as best as I can, and man I'm not checking what the online version does, or complaining if it doesn't do this, leave them alone, they are busy.
If you play 5 Outposts (after some other player's turn), they all stay out and you take another turn (with a 3-card hand). That turn that one Outpost goes away; it's done. The other four sit there, confusing everybody, until the clean-up phase of the next turn (which normally won't be yours) and go away then. They don't "know" they aren't doing anything until after clean-up on the extra turn, so they can't be discarded that turn.
The rulebook says, "Leave the card in front of you until the Clean-up Phase of the last turn in which it does something (discard it before drawing for the following turn)." This is impossible; clean-up is already over before Outpost is done doing things (even when what it's doing is trying to and failing to produce an extra turn). My ruling is to discard it in the next clean-up phase; clean-up is when we discard stuff from play. It won't be your turn but I would discard it then anyway. The original intention was for cards to be discarded the last turn they did something, even when it wasn't your turn (and the precursor to Cutpurse was discarded during someone else's turn). The rules assume the card will go away on your turn but it's normal for the main body of the rules to focus on normal cases rather than exceptions. The basic rule has a parenthetical that assumes it's your turn and well, I had to make a ruling and there it is.
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So wouldn't it make more sense for Outpost not to have the Duration type? It's not actually doing anything on the extra turn (the "only draw 3 cards" applies to clean-up of the original turn). All it's doing is reminding you why the extra turn is happening. But why do you need this? Neither Possession nor Mission leaves anything in play to remind you why extra turns are happening.
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I think...
Technically, by the rules, Possession should be a Duration, but it isn't.
Mission is an event, so I have no clue. What the heck would a duration event look like? I guess it could have used a token.
Outpost is doing things after you discard your cards (trying to give you an extra turn). The Duration rule says it gets discarded during the first cleanup phase after it is done doing things.
If Possession was a Duration (and perhaps it should have been) then it would follow the same rules, but it isn't so it doesn't have anything for tracking.
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Outpost is doing things after you discard your cards (trying to give you an extra turn). The Duration rule says it gets discarded during the first cleanup phase after it is done doing things.
Again, the Duration rule says it gets discarded during the Cleanup phase of the last turn on which it does something, not during the first cleanup phase after it is done doing things.
(Also, arguably, you could say Outpost is doing something on the second turn, namely, causing it to exist. But not as clearly as Possession is doing something on the second turn, namely redirecting gained cards and trashed cards.)
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Any card can have effects that last after it has left play. An action (or treasure!) card could say "at the start of your next turn you get $3" and then it would do that, even though there is nothing to remind you of it when it happens.
Mostly for convenience most cards that can have effects like that are Durations, so that they normally are still in play when they have effects, but it's still not them being in play that has an effect (unless it's an effect that is an when-in-play effect of course (as for Lighthouse). It's easy to believe that a card like Caravan has an effect because it is still in play, but it's the other way around – it's still in play because it has an effect (and it hasn't been removed from play by Procession or whatnot). When you've realized that the implication is in that direction there is not that much confusing going on, even in strange cases.
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Mostly for convenience most cards that can have effects like that are Durations, so that they normally are still in play when they have effects, but it's still not them being in play that has an effect (unless it's an effect that is an when-in-play effect of course (as for Lighthouse). It's easy to believe that a card like Caravan has an effect because it is still in play, but it's the other way around – it's still in play because it has an effect (and it hasn't been removed from play by Procession or whatnot). When you've realized that the implication is in that direction there is not that much confusing going on, even in strange cases.
So what's convenient about it in the case of Outpost?
Seems to me that without the Duration type, Outpost would play pretty much the same but would not generate all these tough questions or necessitate seemingly bizarre (but dictated by rulebook wording) rulings. If anything it would be more convenient -- many players who have seen other Durations find it counterintuitive that it does nothing once the extra turn starts, and some are confused that it doesn't stay out for a whole orbit like all other orange cards do.
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I think it's convenient that Outpost stays out to remind you that you're taking an Outpost turn, and therefore can't take another turn due to another Outpost you play this turn. It's a shame that there's no such tracking mechanism for Mission.
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I think it's convenient that Outpost stays out to remind you that you're taking an Outpost turn, and therefore can't take another turn due to another Outpost you play this turn. It's a shame that there's no such tracking mechanism for Mission.
There's also no tracking mechanism for having just had a Possessed turn, which also prohibits taking another turn due to playing an Outpost. But I guess that's a relatively rare situation.
I wouldn't have thought the lack of tracking mechanism for Mission would really be an inconvenience -- just as I wouldn't think a non-Duration Outpost would be inconvenient -- but as you are one of the lucky few who have played with Mission (and a card design guru), I defer to your expert opinion.
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Well I sometimes forget that I can't buy cards and someone reminds me. I don't think I've ever tried to take a third turn via Mission.
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It's a shame that there's no such tracking mechanism for Mission.
You could always take the Mission event card and put it in front of you.
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It's a shame that there's no such tracking mechanism for Mission.
You could always take the Mission event card and put it in front of you.
Nice. I like it.
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It's a shame that there's no such tracking mechanism for Mission.
You could always take the Mission event card and put it in front of you.
Nice. I like it.
I suspect something like this will be covered in the rulebook, similar to the suggestion to make a separate row of played cards for Durations played this turn.
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It's a shame that there's no such tracking mechanism for Mission.
You could always take the Mission event card and put it in front of you.
Nice. I like it.
I suspect something like this will be covered in the rulebook, similar to the suggestion to make a separate row of played cards for Durations played this turn.
I am nearly certain it won't. But it's still a handy tracking mechanism that you can use.
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If you call multiple Royal Carriages on the same Duration, do they all stay out with it?
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If you call multiple Royal Carriages on the same Duration, do they all stay out with it?
I'd think they'd have to, so that you remember how many times the Duration got played.
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If you call multiple Royal Carriages on the same Duration, do they all stay out with it?
Yes, they do. You can even call several Royal Carriages on a Hireling. You effectively lose them all for the rest of the game, but it's cheaper/stronger than buying and playing multiple Hirelings.
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Given that you're losing the Hireling anyway, Procession/Hireling sounds like a lot of fun if you have anything to pick up with it. Probably a $7, but maybe a $5 with Ferry.
You lose the Procession as well, but to get the extra Hireling effect plus an extra gain, it seems well worth it.
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Given that you're losing the Hireling anyway, Procession/Hireling sounds like a lot of fun if you have anything to pick up with it. Probably a $7, but maybe a $5 with Ferry.
You lose the Procession as well, but to get the extra Hireling effect plus an extra gain, it seems well worth it.
Hmmm. Procession = Feast + Hireling˛ ?
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Thinking about this more, chains could do it even more efficiently. Procession a Procession, Throne a Throne, or KC a KC to multiply multiple Hirelings while only giving up one multiplier. It wouldn't work with Royal Carriage, though, and it's probably not worthwhile with Disciple.
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If I were at Disciple with Hireling in the game, I may just wait until Teacher and add one of the other tokens to the Hireling pile.
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What you are implying wouldn't work. The tokens do stuff before you play cards from that pile. You only play Hireling once.
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If I were at Disciple with Hireling in the game, I may just wait until Teacher and add one of the other tokens to the Hireling pile.
Uh, why? You only ever play a Hireling once. Teacher can't give a card extra Duration effects.
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If I were at Disciple with Hireling in the game, I may just wait until Teacher and add one of the other tokens to the Hireling pile.
I don't think that'd work; tokens seem like they'd only trigger on the first play for Durations, so they're useless on Hireling. At least, the on-play ones Teacher gives.
Hey, we've circled back around to talking about Duration rules!
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Oh right. "This stays in play." works differently than if I had Princed a +Cards. I've been using Prince as a comparison. :-X
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I once drew a hand of 2 Hirelings and some other terminal, and no Villages, right after I'd put my Teacher on the Tavern. So I put the +1 Action token on Hireling, just so I could play my 3 terminals that turn. Moved the token the next time I got Teacher. Not sure if it was the right move, but it was great.
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Oh right. "This stays in play." works differently than if I had Princed a +Cards. I've been using Prince as a comparison. :-X
Oh man, but tokens on whatever card you've princed would be awesome.
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I once drew a hand of 2 Hirelings and some other terminal, and no Villages, right after I'd put my Teacher on the Tavern. So I put the +1 Action token on Hireling, just so I could play my 3 terminals that turn. Moved the token the next time I got Teacher. Not sure if it was the right move, but it was great.
This was against me! I lost horribly IIRC
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I once drew a hand of 2 Hirelings and some other terminal, and no Villages, right after I'd put my Teacher on the Tavern. So I put the +1 Action token on Hireling, just so I could play my 3 terminals that turn. Moved the token the next time I got Teacher. Not sure if it was the right move, but it was great.
This was against me! I lost horribly IIRC
Yes, you went heavy Gear.
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Here's a completely different Duration question.
I'm under the effects of a Haunted Woods attack. After playing what I can, my hand consists of four Curses, but I have an extra Buy, so I decide to go for Quest first to clear my hand. Can I choose to discard six cards, attempt to, and fail, but in the process discard all four of my Curses? Or do I have to stop after discarding the second Curse?
Alternatively, say my hand has four Curses but also an Estate. If I discard the Estate first, does that affect recognizing that I've discarded two Curses if there's any such recognition, since there's an Estate discarded as well?
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Here's a completely different Duration question.
I'm under the effects of a Haunted Woods attack. After playing what I can, my hand consists of four Curses, but I have an extra Buy, so I decide to go for Quest first to clear my hand. Can I choose to discard six cards, attempt to, and fail, but in the process discard all four of my Curses? Or do I have to stop after discarding the second Curse?
Alternatively, say my hand has four Curses but also an Estate. If I discard the Estate first, does that affect recognizing that I've discarded two Curses if there's any such recognition, since there's an Estate discarded as well?
This is a question about Quest, not about durations. :P
It's ambiguous from the event text and the FAQ, but I would expect that you can choose to discard 6 and fail. Ask Donald!
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I'm under the effects of a Haunted Woods attack. After playing what I can, my hand consists of four Curses, but I have an extra Buy, so I decide to go for Quest first to clear my hand. Can I choose to discard six cards, attempt to, and fail, but in the process discard all four of my Curses? Or do I have to stop after discarding the second Curse?
You can pick "discard 6," do as much as you can (discarding 4 cards), and then fail the "if you do" (gaining nothing).
Alternatively, say my hand has four Curses but also an Estate. If I discard the Estate first, does that affect recognizing that I've discarded two Curses if there's any such recognition, since there's an Estate discarded as well?
When you decide to discard 6, you can discard them in any order; it won't affect the fact that you fail to discard 6 and don't get a Gold. If you decide to discard 2 Curses, you can't discard an Estate, only Curses.
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So with nothing but 2 Curses in hand, and under Haunted Woods, if you don't want a Gold because your deck is best without any treasures, you can buy Quest to discard 6 cards instead of buying Quest to discard 2 Curses.
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So with nothing but 2 Curses in hand, and under Haunted Woods, if you don't want a Gold because your deck is best without any treasures, you can buy Quest to discard 6 cards instead of buying Quest to discard 2 Curses.
Dominion Online's gonna need a hell of a lot of buttons.
Can you choose to discard an Attack or two Curses without having either in your hand?
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So with nothing but 2 Curses in hand, and under Haunted Woods, if you don't want a Gold because your deck is best without any treasures, you can buy Quest to discard 6 cards instead of buying Quest to discard 2 Curses.
Dominion Online's gonna need a hell of a lot of buttons.
Can you choose to discard an Attack or two Curses without having either in your hand?
Are you asking about this because it sounds like it can't be right? You pick what you are doing and then try to do it. You can similarly choose to trash 2 cards from your hand with Mercenary without 2 cards in hand. In that case you trash as many as you can, then fail to get the benefit.
Quest has 3 options but doesn't say "choose one." I try to use the best phrasings I can.
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Okay, so in other words, where Quest says "[You may do one of these three things.] If you do…", the "if you do" means "if you do [the one of these things that you chose]", not "if you do [any one of the things, even if you chose to do a different one]". Right?
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Okay, so in other words, where Quest says "[You may do one of these three things.] If you do…", the "if you do" means "if you do [the one of these things that you chose]", not "if you do [any one of the things, even if you chose to do a different one]". Right?
Yes.
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Okay, so in other words, where Quest says "[You may do one of these three things.] If you do…", the "if you do" means "if you do [the one of these things that you chose]", not "if you do [any one of the things, even if you chose to do a different one]". Right?
That's how I read it.
I can't choose "discard 6 cards" and discard 4 curses to then say "oh look, I discarded two curses! I get a Gold!" The "If you do" means "If you do the thing you initially intended to do."
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So... "Walk a blue dog or a green cat. If you did..." The "If you did" refers to the animal you chose to walk.
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So... "Walk a blue dog or a green cat. If you did..." The "If you did" refers to the animal you chose to walk.
Did you feet "it"?