Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion Articles => Topic started by: Davio on October 20, 2014, 02:52:08 pm
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This list is heavily inspired by shark_bait's list (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11851.0).
I would like to present my top 10 cards beginners don't understand. What I mean by this is cards whose power level isn't immediately apparent. Even beginning players will understand the power of Goons to some extent (as they will likely love Militia) and King's Court (because Throne Room/Lab is already a superdupercombo!). This list tries to point out a lot of the more subtle cards, cards which tend to be overlooked by beginning players, but are a big part of expert players' arsenal.
I was a beginner once and scoffed at these cards. Why would anyone ever buy that card? Only after I learned more and more about the game I came to realize that those cards held a secret power, only unveiled to initiates. Most of the time the experience curve of such a card is as follows: From "it sucks!" to "it's overpowered!" to finally realizing when it's good and when it isn't.
Having a good understanding of these 10 cards will help you a lot with your game.
Enough meta-discussion, on with the list!
Honorable Mentions
These cards just missed my top 10, but maybe they would have made yours: Wharf, Duke, Menagerie and Fool's Gold
10. Vineyard
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/c8/Vineyard.jpg)
At first it seems just a novelty, a card which gives VPs for action cards. It's much more than that. When you're playing any kind of engine, you will likely have a lot of action cards and the points from Vineyards can become enough on their own to beat a Province player. You need 18 action cards to make Vineyards worth as much as a single Province. That seems like a lot, but it really isn't. The upside of not needing any Provinces is that you're forcing your opponent to get all 8 which is quite hard to do. It's not uncommon for a Province player to take as long as 25 turns to drown the Province pile which gives a Vineyards player more than enough time to outrace him.
9. Bridge
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/3/39/Bridge.jpg)
When I first encountered Bridge I thought it was just a Woodcutter trying to be cute. That's true to an extent, a single Bridge gives as much buying power as Silver. Its true strength is shown when playing multiple copies. It's a great feeling when you pull off KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge for the first time to clear out the Province pile. Highway pales in comparison to Bridge, because it can't be KC'd and misses a +Buy. These things give Bridge the immense power it has.
8. Scrying Pool
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/7/79/Scrying_Pool.jpg)
I remember playing against Scrying Pool players on Isotropic and thought other people were just wasting my time. How wrong I was. Scrying Pool is a killer card even without spying the opponent's deck. It's almost always a must-buy. Beginners tend to think it's just finicky and doesn't hold any real value (unlike Silver and Gold of course), but they will learn.
7. Tactician
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/e/ed/Tactician.jpg)
Discarding cards and wasting turns is something beginners don't like to do. So why would they invest in Tactician? Well, because one good hand is usually better than two mediocre ones. It's much easier to do what you want to do if you start with 10 cards in your hand. Even money-based decks can benefit from a Tactician, since hitting $8 and getting a Province once is better than hitting $4 twice.
6. Masquerade
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/0/0e/Masquerade.jpg)
Intrigue was the first set I got and it had Masquerade. The card seemed fun for the interactive part of it, but nothing special. As I found out, it's actually one of the most powerful $3's in existence. Drawing before passing/trashing is a huge deal, it often allows you to get a decent card on the same turn you're trashing. There are cute combos and pins by playing a hand-reducing card first and anti-combos with Possession. Even without those card interactions, the card stands on its own.
5. Stonemason
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/d/d2/Stonemason.jpg)
Beginners often won't look past the on-play card. "Trashing an expensive card? I don't think so!" The overpay part is actually what makes this card a hidden gem. A lot of $5+ cards are even better when you get more of them. Stonemason makes this easier. It seems so harmless as it only costs $2 on its own, but 2 $5+-cards and 1 Stonemason is just often better than just 1 $5-card.
4. Butcher
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/e/ed/Butcher.jpg)
At first I thought it was just a glorified Salvager. Being able to just take the coins without trashing makes it a very good card and not that apparently powerful. I have found that Butcher just works in most decks, engines, BM, hybrids; I think I ignore it a teensy tiney percentage of games it appears in. Being able to save up those coins is very nice.
3. Black Market
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/fa/Black_Market.jpg)
Another novelty card with a high impact on the game, I can't do it as much justice as Steff does, so just take a look at his article. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11896.0) Needless to say, it has a lot of hidden power.
2. Rebuild
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/f8/Rebuild.jpg)
You probably suspected it was on the list. I dismissed this card at first, thinking it would be weak. It was only after I discovered the wisdom of the F.Ds people I learned its true power. Being non-terminal is huge for a card like this. It just dominates most boards it's on and makes the game about finetuning its usage. It's so wordy that beginners might just skip it for the text, but what it does, it does brilliantly. I think it surprised a lot of advanced players as well, since it wasn't an obvious engine card enabling megaturns or something like that.
1. Chapel
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/29/Chapel.jpg)
This list wouldn't be complete without the granddaddy of cards "discovered" by evolving players. I remember when I looked it at and thought: That's only useful with Curses, why would I want to trash any Treasures or VP cards? Well, imagine that you could start with a fresh deck consisting only of cards you gained voluntarily (and Chapel). It's like using 10 Zaps to upgrade those pesky Coppers and Estates to Silvers and Duchies, but better! I'm preaching to the choir here, you all know Chapel's strength. Back then I didn't and a lot of beginners are still just discovering its power.
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Funny thing : I discovered the power of Chapel through... Tactician.
When I first played Dominion it was just the base set that a friend introduced me to. We basically pulled an all-nighter playing it and concluded that Laboratory was easily the best card (we still have a joke going that if you say "Laboratory" five times in a row, you automatically win the game).
Later I got offered Dominion and Seaside for Christmas (it must have just been out at that point), so Seaside cards were a big part of my discovering the game aside those initial few plays. And in one game,I played a Tactician/Chapel deck, which sounds awful but the idea was that I could do that crazy crazy thing of chapeling all of my starting cards away, and Tactician would make it easier to draw a lof of them together with Chapel. I don't think I won, but it certainly made me realize how powerful deck thinning really was.
I pegged Rebuild instantly though. I always start out new sets by playing the recommended sets in the rules and the first game with Rebuild I went "huh, that could be a one-card combo", played it and won easily. I didn't realise how insanely powerful it was of course, but I was surprised to see it was initially seen as weak.
Masquerade is one I completely agree with, I almost never played it until I discovered isotropic and dominionstrategy.com
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Man, I underestimated pretty much every card on this list when I first saw them, or at least didn't give them much attention. Bridge though, seems like a card I'd expect myself to overrate as a new player, especially with the existence of Throne room from the base set. I think it's flashy enough to be overrated by other new players as well.
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I overrated Butcher. f.ds taught me about Chapel and Bridge. I understand SP but I don't care for the card, it is too time consuming and is always a goto card, rarely can you ignore it and try an alternate strategy. Rebuild is the same way but I like that card, at least it doesn't protract games and correctly working the splits is a science although sometimes it is just a randomized winner. isotropic taught me Masq.
I correctly pegged Vineyards (I love alt VP) and Tactician.
Black Market is another least favorite card and I think it can often be ignored.
I'm still working out Stonemason. I've been amazed by it and sometimes I think it has to be ignored or it gets overrated.
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huh... I still dislike tactition. I almost always avoid it in my games as I hate using a turn to not do anything. I think I'm doing something wrong. Is it only good in games with virtual coins? I can see it being incredible there.
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huh... I still dislike tactition. I almost always avoid it in my games as I hate using a turn to not do anything. I think I'm doing something wrong. Is it only good in games with virtual coins? I can see it being incredible there.
It's very good with virtual coins, and virtual coins are quite common. Apart from that, one great turn is better than two mediocre ones, which is what makes it good.
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not sure about bridge, the rest is good. one of the first things I thought when I saw bridge is: hey, I just need to play 8 of them and I win.
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The first card that beginners have problems with is workshop. They understand what it does but not how to use it.
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The first card that beginners have problems with is workshop. They understand what it does but not how to use it.
And Village.
I don't know about Stonemason, Rebuild and Butcher since I never had the chance of being a beginner when the cards came out, and I'm not convinced that Bridge belongs on this list, but other than that, I have to admit that the other cards on this list I didn't quite understand.
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These are all cards that newbies tend to underrate, but what about cards that they overrate or just have no clue how to play around? Torturer, Saboteur, Possession and Familiar, just to name a few.
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Familiar ? What's complicated about Familiar ?
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Smugglers would be an example of overrating. The person who taught me Dominion thought it was brokenly strong, so I thought that too for awhile.
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Smugglers would be an example of overrating. The person who taught me Dominion thought it was brokenly strong, so I thought that too for awhile.
Me and my firends still always seem to get at least one when its on the board. I know its not supposed to be super strong. But it always seems like if someone doesn't get it they won't win the game.
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Familiar ? What's complicated about Familiar ?
A lot of newer players think that Familiar is unskippable in every situation, but there are many factors that can mitigate its power. More generally, new players don't realize how Potion costs change the pace at which you can purchase those cards.
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Familiar ? What's complicated about Familiar ?
New players aren't very familiar with it.
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Familiar ? What's complicated about Familiar ?
A lot of newer players think that Familiar is unskippable in every situation, but there are many factors that can mitigate its power. More generally, new players don't realize how Potion costs change the pace at which you can purchase those cards.
I think the problem here is talking about different levels of "new". I don't think new players think every curser is unskippable, that sounds more like a somewhat experienced player who hasn't played five thousand games online.
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I thought Bridge was awesome. On the other hand, I can agree with newbies not getting Chapel. I have shown Dominion to about 10 people and none of them thought it was a powerful card. My mom still thinks its weak. Although, I would say she is a level 0 player. She still thinks buying extra coppers is good almost all the time no matter what.
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What about Moneylender? The point of that card is to teach you that trashing Coppers can be good. I can imagine new players getting it for the wrong reasons. I really saw the Copper trashing as a penalty (and not what makes Moneylender better than terminal Silver). I don't think I ever got a Moneylender before discovering Isotropic.
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I disagree about tactician. From my experience with my friends, new players drool over having a 10 card hard because they don't know how to make engines.
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I think the biggest one here for me was Stonemason. I thought it would be an average card. Yesterday I considered three-piling with Stonemasons when there were nine left.
(That's not its only power, of course)
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What about Moneylender? The point of that card is to teach you that trashing Coppers can be good. I can imagine new players getting it for the wrong reasons. I really saw the Copper trashing as a penalty (and not what makes Moneylender better than terminal Silver). I don't think I ever got a Moneylender before discovering Isotropic.
I think this falls somewhere in between, at least for me. I didn't think it was great, neither did I think it was awful. Trashing a Copper for +$3 didn't seem so weird to me.
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I agree that most of my crew saw Bridge as pretty good right away. I'd include Hovel too.
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I thought Bridge looked awesome when I saw it as a complete noob.
You know what card is missing from this list? Ambassador.
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It's harder for me to judge anything not in base, prosperity, and seaside, since those were the sets I played before discovering ds, and especially DA and Guilds because they came out well after I got into Dominion. There are a few cards that even then I took a while to figure out (SP, vineyards, apothecary. There seems to be an alchemy theme).
I think that village should maybe be on this list. I was convinced village was OP before discovering the blog. In fact, I think the last game I played before doing so I claimed that "village is overpowered and should definitely cost 4." Ha. There are so many problems with that... I realized though that I was kind of talking out of my ass, so I decided to do some research, and here we are two and half years later.
Chapel is the king for sure though and I had similar experiences thinking Moneylender was useless. We would just replace it when it came up since no one ever bought it.
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not sure about bridge, the rest is good. one of the first things I thought when I saw bridge is: hey, I just need to play 8 of them and I win.
You clearly underrated it. 7 should suffice.
But yeah, I think Bridge, Tactician, and Vineyards are much more obvious than the other cards on the list. Black Market too. Ambassador for sure should be here, and Upgrade probably, and Apothecary. Maybe Jack?
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The thing about Bridge is that I thought it scaled linearly, but it actually scales exponentially, which is not actually mathematically correct, because it scales "squaredly".
1 Bridge gets you 1 free Poor House and 1 Estate (worth $3)
2 Bridges get you 2 free Pawns and 1 Herald (worth $8)
3 Bridges get you 3 free Schemes and 1 Gold (worth $15)
4 Bridges get you 4 free Treasure Maps and 1 Province (worth $24)
You see the tendency here: +5, +7, +9
So the amount of $ worth you get by playing X Bridges is X2 + 2X
9 Bridges (KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge) gets you an amazing $99 worth of purchase power with 9 Buys.
I can agree that Bridge appears quite a decent card from first looking at it, but I only found out through playing multiple copies exactly just how powerful it was. Whenever there's a possibility for multiple Bridges in a kingdom, I almost always go for it.
Jack is a good candidate for this list. It seems like doing three mediocre things shouldn't be worth it, but we all know it is.
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The thing about Bridge is that I thought it scaled linearly, but it actually scales exponentially, which is not actually mathematically correct, because it scales "squaredly".
The mathematical term is "quadratic".
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The thing about Bridge is that I thought it scaled linearly, but it actually scales exponentially, which is not actually mathematically correct, because it scales "squaredly".
The mathematical term is "quadratic".
Okay, I had typed "quadratically" originally, but Chrome's spellchecker didn't like it. :)
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The thing about Bridge is that I thought it scaled linearly, but it actually scales exponentially, which is not actually mathematically correct, because it scales "squaredly".
The mathematical term is "quadratic".
Okay, I had typed "quadratically" originally, but Chrome's spellchecker didn't like it. :)
With science and math, I have added so many words to the dictionaries on my browser and word processor. Don't trust the spellchecker if it's anything even remotely technical.
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Okay, I had typed "quadratically" originally, but Chrome's spellchecker didn't like it. :)
Spellcheckers often don't know technical terms. "Quadratically" is definitely a word I've seen in published math/CS papers, and it is the word you were looking for :)
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My vote for ten goes to:
Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop
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I think that village should maybe be on this list. I was convinced village was OP before discovering the blog. In fact, I think the last game I played before doing so I claimed that "village is overpowered and should definitely cost 4." Ha. There are so many problems with that... I realized though that I was kind of talking out of my ass, so I decided to do some research, and here we are two and half years later.
I've a friend who still claims village is way OP and should cost 4 (despite having played a lot longer, than I have, albeit with several thousand less Iso games). Also, that Chapel should cost 5. Refuses to be swayed otherwise. He's good at the game, he gets the game he just... doesn't seem to get why cheap villages and chapels are FUN in the game.
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It's hard to grasp why prices are as they are.
It takes a while to understand that raw power is not the only thing that influences a card's cost.
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I definitely agree with stonemason being on this list. I played a game just the other day that was a colony game, with a SP engine, bishop, fortress, and stonemason. Oh, and there was no +buy. My opponent went for a bishop/fortress deck, but I realized I could close the game faster by stonemasoning colony into plats, and then plats into provinces. I think I emptied the province pile over 2 turns.
Not to mention it was a no brainer to pay 4P for two scrying pools, so I already had the stonemasons.
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I still don't fully know how to use stonemason. Almost every board I play with it I ignore it because I don't think it will be very useful. And then suddenly I lose the game because my opponent did some crazy stonemason play that I didn't even consider.
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I still don't fully know how to use stonemason. Almost every board I play with it I ignore it because I don't think it will be very useful. And then suddenly I lose the game because my opponent did some crazy stonemason play that I didn't even consider.
There are several basic plays for stonemason:
1. Overbuy him to get dual copies of engine components on the cheap. E.g. with a Hunting Party deck, you often want to pay 7 and nab to Hunting parties (then use the Stone Mason to clear estates). If you have $X, then you can get $2X - 4 value (excluding Stonemason). This can be viable even if the Stonemason is a dead card to you itself (either sift or trash past it)
2. Fast pile. For $12 and 3 buys you can burn all but burn an entire pile (Stonemasons), cheap components (like villages, sifters, etc.) can make 3-pile a LOT easier. You can also churn a lot of gains with playing Stonemason.
3. Point spiking. Trash Plat, gain two Provinces. A single colony buy is good for four Provinces (more than double the points) after three plays of Stonemason. With strong overdraw, you can have just $11 in cash in your engine, but in two turns gain a whopping 34 points (or overbuy a stonemason for two $5s and two $2 - like Nv/Catacombs). Province -> Gold -> Duchies is less impressive, but Stonemason with gold gaining (Explorer, Market Square, Mint, Mine, Bag of Gold, Taxman, etc.) can let an engine hammer the duchy pile quickly for the cost of two actions and some draw/sifting.
4. Down trading cards. You can set up some crazy vodoo with card gaining/Stonemason. For instance Procession/stuff can give you $5, $6, or $7 ($8 with Prince/Peddler) and even if the action is useless - Stonemason can turn it into two nice cards (e.g. Prssn -> Conspirator -> gain Sab -> draw Sab -> Stm [Sab -> 2 Conspirators]), The broad Remodel family can be really nice here.
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1. Overbuy him to get dual copies of engine components on the cheap. E.g. with a Hunting Party deck, you often want to pay 7 and nab to Hunting parties (then use the Stone Mason to clear estates). If you have $X, then you can get $2X - 4 value (excluding Stonemason). This can be viable even if the Stonemason is a dead card to you itself (either sift or trash past it)
Do you really want to Stonemason your Estates into two Coppers each in a Hunting Party stack? Estates aren't much worse than Copper with Hunting Party, unless you can get rid of them all; even if you do, that's three more junk cards in your deck, decreasing the frequency with which you draw Hunting Party in your opening hand.
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I still don't fully know how to use stonemason. Almost every board I play with it I ignore it because I don't think it will be very useful. And then suddenly I lose the game because my opponent did some crazy stonemason play that I didn't even consider.
There are several basic plays for stonemason:
1. Overbuy him to get dual copies of engine components on the cheap. E.g. with a Hunting Party deck, you often want to pay 7 and nab to Hunting parties (then use the Stone Mason to clear estates). If you have $X, then you can get $2X - 4 value (excluding Stonemason). This can be viable even if the Stonemason is a dead card to you itself (either sift or trash past it)
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1A. Overbuy him with Potion to get 2 Scrying Pools or Familiars. Especially Scrying Pools, since then you only need 1 Potion in your deck and a single buy can net you 3 Action cards, which is amazing since Scrying Pool loves Action cards and rather dislikes having too many Potions.
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I need to try playing with that card. I don know if mine have fingerprints on them yet.