Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: silverspawn on October 16, 2014, 03:13:35 pm
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If you play Black market, buy a card, play hermit, don't buy something in your buy phase, should you gain a madman? Hermit clearly says, "if you did not by any cards this turn", so I think you don't, but goko says you do. My guess is that this is just incorrect implementation... or is it correct?
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On-buy effects trigger when you buy cards from the black market deck, and you can overpay cards from the black market deck, so that's how I would interpret it.
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If you play Black market, buy a card, play hermit, don't buy something in your buy phase, should you gain a madman? Hermit clearly says, "if you did not by any cards this turn", so I think you don't, but goko says you do. My guess is that this is just incorrect implementation... or is it correct?
If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.
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If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.
Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.
Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.
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If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.
Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.
Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.
At least you get to live out that "what if?" scenario.
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If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.
Dominion Online has fixed this, and now does it correctly.
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If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.
Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.
Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.
Huh, I just now realized that Hermit's self-trashing is not optional. So if you want to play and keep your Hermit, but don't have enough money to buy anything, you're out of luck.
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If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.
Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.
Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.
Huh, I just now realized that Hermit's self-trashing is not optional. So if you want to play and keep your Hermit, but don't have enough money to buy anything, you're out of luck. can use Hermit's ability to gain another Hermit.
FTFY
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If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.
Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.
Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.
Huh, I just now realized that Hermit's self-trashing is not optional. So if you want to play and keep your Hermit, but don't have enough money to buy anything, you're out of luck. can use Hermit's ability to gain another Hermit.
FTFY
Not really... Because then you won't have used his ability to gain whatever else you wanted, which could have been a second Hermit or anything else.
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If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.
Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.
Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.
Huh, I just now realized that Hermit's self-trashing is not optional. So if you want to play and keep your Hermit, but don't have enough money to buy anything, you're out of luck. can use Hermit's ability to gain another Hermit.
FTFY
Not really... Because then you won't have used his ability to gain whatever else you wanted, which could have been a second Hermit or anything else.
Well, not being able to gain what you want is what happens when you don't have enough money. Hermit doesn't make that any worse.
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If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.
Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.
Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.
Huh, I just now realized that Hermit's self-trashing is not optional. So if you want to play and keep your Hermit, but don't have enough money to buy anything, you're out of luck. can use Hermit's ability to gain another Hermit.
FTFY
Not really... Because then you won't have used his ability to gain whatever else you wanted, which could have been a second Hermit or anything else.
Well, not being able to gain what you want is what happens when you don't have enough money. Hermit doesn't make that any worse.
It's worse than if Hermit's self-trashing were a "may". If it were optional, then you could use Hermit to gain what you want, and still keep Hermit if you wanted to, even though you couldn't buy anything you wanted. But the way it is, if you can't buy anything you want, you have to choose between not playing Hermit (and thus not getting a $3 that you want), or trashing the Hermit.
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If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.
Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.
Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.
Huh, I just now realized that Hermit's self-trashing is not optional. So if you want to play and keep your Hermit, but don't have enough money to buy anything, you're out of luck. can use Hermit's ability to gain another Hermit.
FTFY
Not really... Because then you won't have used his ability to gain whatever else you wanted, which could have been a second Hermit or anything else.
Well, not being able to gain what you want is what happens when you don't have enough money. Hermit doesn't make that any worse.
It's worse than if Hermit's self-trashing were a "may". If it were optional, then you could use Hermit to gain what you want, and still keep Hermit if you wanted to, even though you couldn't buy anything you wanted. But the way it is, if you can't buy anything you want, you have to choose between not playing Hermit (and thus not getting a $3 that you want), or trashing the Hermit.
...or buying a Copper. Not that that was something you'd like to do.
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If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.
Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.
Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.
Huh, I just now realized that Hermit's self-trashing is not optional. So if you want to play and keep your Hermit, but don't have enough money to buy anything, you're out of luck. can use Hermit's ability to gain another Hermit.
FTFY
Not really... Because then you won't have used his ability to gain whatever else you wanted, which could have been a second Hermit or anything else.
Well, not being able to gain what you want is what happens when you don't have enough money. Hermit doesn't make that any worse.
It's worse than if Hermit's self-trashing were a "may". If it were optional, then you could use Hermit to gain what you want, and still keep Hermit if you wanted to, even though you couldn't buy anything you wanted. But the way it is, if you can't buy anything you want, you have to choose between not playing Hermit (and thus not getting a $3 that you want), or trashing the Hermit.
...or buying a Copper. Not that that was something you'd like to do.
So it sounds like if you love your Hermits, you should not send them on a Mission or they will be forced to become Madmen.
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If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.
Dominion Online has fixed this, and now does it correctly.
Dominion Online apparently does not do this interaction correctly any more.
JW plays Black Market
JW reveals Secret Chamber, Spy, Embassy
JW plays Copper
JW buys Embassy
JW gains Embassy
Lord Bottington gains Silver
JW places Secret Chamber on bottom of the Black Market deck
JW places Spy on bottom of the Black Market deck
JW plays Hermit
JW trashes Estate
JW gains Fishing Village
JW trashes Hermit
JW gains Madman
JW draws Curse, Curse, Copper, Hermit, Copper
But wait, in the same game the interaction was handled correctly. Does Dominion online get the interaction correct with multiple Hermits in play, but not with only one? Or is it a random process? Stay tuned for exciting future investigations!
JW plays Hermit
JW trashes Curse
JW gains Hermit
JW plays Hermit
JW trashes Curse
JW gains Hermit
JW plays Black Market
JW reveals Remodel, Catacombs, Hunting Party
JW plays Copper
JW plays Copper
JW plays Copper
JW buys Catacombs
JW gains Catacombs
JW places Hunting Party on bottom of the Black Market deck
JW places Remodel on bottom of the Black Market deck
JW draws Worker's Village, Rats, Rats, Copper, Fishing Village
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Based on those snippets, it looks like the difference is the timing. In the first example, you played Black Market and bought a card, then you played Hermit and didn't buy anything else. In the second example, you played two Hermits and then you played Black Market, buying a card. That probably means that Dominion Online is only checking for buys while Hermit is in play.
To confirm, you can try playing a Hermit, buying something through Black Market, then playing another Hermit and not buying anything. If my guess is correct, then you should get only one Madman from the second Hermit, but not the first. If that doesn't happen, then it's still possible that they are doing the same kind of timed check but it's stored in a single variable for all Hermits in play.
Based on the wording of the card, I think the proper behaviour is that Hermit should not trigger even if you buy a card before Hermit is played.
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Based on those snippets, it looks like the difference is the timing. In the first example, you played Black Market and bought a card, then you played Hermit and didn't buy anything else. In the second example, you played two Hermits and then you played Black Market, buying a card. That probably means that Dominion Online is only checking for buys while Hermit is in play.
To confirm, you can try playing a Hermit, buying something through Black Market, then playing another Hermit and not buying anything. If my guess is correct, then you should get only one Madman from the second Hermit, but not the first. If that doesn't happen, then it's still possible that they are doing the same kind of timed check but it's stored in a single variable for all Hermits in play.
Exactly right!
JW plays Village
JW draws Village
JW plays Village
JW draws Hermit
JW plays Hermit
JW gains Village
JW plays Black Market
JW reveals Scrying Pool, Horn of Plenty, Worker's Village
JW plays Silver
JW buys Worker's Village
JW gains Worker's Village
JW places Horn of Plenty on bottom of the Black Market deck
JW places Scrying Pool on bottom of the Black Market deck
JW plays Hermit
JW gains Village
JW trashes Hermit
JW gains Madman
JW draws Copper
JW shuffles deck
JW draws Worker's Village, Madman, Hermit, Village
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This interaction appears fixed, according to MF:
http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?10154-Release-Notes-v-2-1-with-Adventures
Fixed: Buying a card with Black Market from the Black Market deck should prevent the gain of a Madman, even if no card is bought during the player's Buy phase. (829)