Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => General Discussion => Topic started by: GendoIkari on December 13, 2011, 03:44:28 pm
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I've been finding myself typing "man," a lot before I say stuff online now. I'm quite sure it's because of reading so many of Donald's posts and his use of the phrase.
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Man, I was just about to comment on this.
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I haven't had that problem. Maby it's because I'm not a native English speaker... Man...
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I haven't had that problem. Maby it's because I'm not a native English speaker... Man...
I'm also not a native English speaker (Dutch), but I see myself starting a lot of senteces with "Well, ...".
Also, I am starting a lot of sentences with words like 'but' and 'also' although my English teacher told me not to. ;D
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Also, I am starting a lot of sentences with words like 'but' and 'also' although my English teacher told me not to. ;D
Well then, your English teacher lied to you. There is nothing grammatically wrong with starting a sentence with a conjunction. Also, you can definitely start one with also.
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Also, I am starting a lot of sentences with words like 'but' and 'also' although my English teacher told me not to. ;D
Well then, your English teacher lied to you. There is nothing grammatically wrong with starting a sentence with a conjunction. Also, you can definitely start one with also.
It is normally wrong to start a sentence with a conjunction. I don't know why, it just is. I was taught it in 5th grade.
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It is normally wrong to start a sentence with a conjunction. I don't know why, it just is. I was taught it in 5th grade.
The first thing is to learn what it means to be "wrong" in a language. It's only "wrong" if you are the only one doing it. If a bunch of people do it, it's a dialect, and if everyone does it it's the language. There's no person who gets to say, "I declare this to be bad English" and have it be so. It's all about usage.
A lot of people refuse to accept this and well so much for that. It makes no more sense to cling to "whom" than it does to cling to "ye." Turning "they" into a singular pronoun is just as foolish as turning "you" into a singular pronoun was. Etc. ad infinitum.
The next thing is, grade school English teachers teach false things because it works out for them. For example they will have lots of kids writing sentences like "because his dog was dead." So they teach, "you can't start a sentence with because," even though there's no actual problem with starting a sentence with "because." It's easier for them than explaining how exactly clauses work.
That is what happened with your English teacher. Conjunctions start sentences just fine.
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Oh man, sry about the prescriptivist language rules rant in the thread celebrating the way I talk.
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I'm not a hardcore prescriptivist or anything: I like to flagrantly split infinitives, and the singular gender-neutral "they" is a great innovation that I'm all in favor of. However, there is definitely value in knowing the "real" rules and understanding the situations where it's okay to break them, and there are some things that instinctively make me cringe.
For example, when people make plural's like this.
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Being extremely interested in linguistics (I'm currently translating Dominion cards into my own made-up language <.<), I'm well aware that prescriptivism is silly. However, it offends my sensibilities when people just don't know how to spell or use punctuation correctly, even if everyone else is doing it. Part of me feels it should be a federal offense. But that's just me. And I didn't notice any particular speech patterns on this forum, but the internet has made me actually say "LOL" in my head (pronounced "lawl") whenever I find something amusing.
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I agree that even though it is happening a lot, that's no excuse for horrible grammar. I mean, slightly off grammar like mine is probably fine, because it doesn't really present a comprehension problem. Also, siple spelling mistakes should not be taken so seriously, although when people replace all their s' with z's and stuff like that, it just makes them look stupid.
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For example, when people make plural's like this.
It turns out apostrophes have been used for pluralization for as long as apostrophes have existed in English. They made plurals from day one. And some style guides still allow them today for pluralizing letters, and sometimes for pluralizing acronyms [citation needed].
Apostrophes (in English) originally always represented missing letters. For possessives, the missing letter is an "e."
Frank Zappa - Apostrophe
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This is slightly off topic, but I find it odd how Donald X has less "respect" than theory on this forum...
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This is slightly off topic, but I find it odd how Donald X has less "respect" than theory on this forum...
If you look at posts then respect and do posts/respect then you see that actually, Donald comes out with more respect. It is theory's posts that cause the extra respect.
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This is slightly off topic, but I find it odd how Donald X has less "respect" than theory on this forum...
If you look at posts then respect and do posts/respect then you see that actually, Donald comes out with more respect. It is theory's posts that cause the extra respect.
By that metric, I am better respected than theory! And only 3% less respected than Donald!
Well, after this post, more like 4%. Damn. I gotta stop posting. I'm losing respect.
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Even hardcore prescriptivists allow that it's OK to start a sentence with a conjunction. Like, for example, the practice is specifically endorsed by the Chicago Manual of Style.
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Of course language is a lot more fluid than hard-liners give it credit for, but then the flip-side can be slightly anarchic and needlessly cumbersome to interpret. My friends and I used to make up words all the time (I'm sure most people do), and it was our own sort language dialect, but was it really full English? Dunno. Sometimes things irk me, like use of the word Platina to mean Platinums (a word that is also made up basically), because often they're just needless and there's a perfectly good word for it already, but meh whatever. Most of the time people say these things tongue-in-cheek and it's just hard to tell in text. I find I might comment on it (I commented on a lack of comma in a book yesterday) just because I notice it, but I'm not thinking "that's wrong!", it's just a deviation, customisation, or usually an increasingly common modernisation of the rules.
(....man.)
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I'm currently translating Dominion cards into my own made-up language
That's gotta be the nerdiest thing I've read in a long time. Love it! :)
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Of course language is a lot more fluid than hard-liners give it credit for, but then the flip-side can be slightly anarchic and needlessly cumbersome to interpret. My friends and I used to make up words all the time (I'm sure most people do), and it was our own sort language dialect, but was it really full English? Dunno. Sometimes things irk me, like use of the word Platina to mean Platinums (a word that is also made up basically), because often they're just needless and there's a perfectly good word for it already, but meh whatever. Most of the time people say these things tongue-in-cheek and it's just hard to tell in text. I find I might comment on it (I commented on a lack of comma in a book yesterday) just because I notice it,
but I'm not thinking "that's wrong!", it's just a deviation, customisation, or usually an increasingly common modernisation of the rules.
(....man.)
(I added the carriage returns before 'but' into the quote)
Totally love the last part of this, about noticing it as a deviation and whatnot. But I'm really amused at the first part, because, if I'm not mistaken, 'Platinums' is no more a word than 'Platina' is - 'accepted' pluralisation is 'Platinum'.
Of course, I might be mistaken.
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Well, in common speech "platinum" is basically never used as a count noun. I suppose you might pluralize it if you were talking about different shades of the color platinum? Though I'd expect "shades of platinum" for that.
In Dominion I'd be strongly inclined to use "Platinums" to refer to multiple instances of the "Platinum" card, as a shorthand for the probably less controversial "instances of Platinum" or "copies of Platinum". You could ask "How much Platinum do you have in your deck?" but that doesn't sit well with me since we're really talking about a count rather than an amount of a mass noun. Certainly I would feel wrong responding with "I have 5 Platinum" - 5 is a count!
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Well, in common speech "platinum" is basically never used as a count noun. I suppose you might pluralize it if you were talking about different shades of the color platinum? Though I'd expect "shades of platinum" for that.
In Dominion I'd be strongly inclined to use "Platinums" to refer to multiple instances of the "Platinum" card, as a shorthand for the probably less controversial "instances of Platinum" or "copies of Platinum". You could ask "How much Platinum do you have in your deck?" but that doesn't sit well with me since we're really talking about a count rather than an amount of a mass noun. Certainly I would feel wrong responding with "I have 5 Platinum" - 5 is a count!
I'd say 'how many platinum do you have' because many goes with count while much does not. Other than that, I don't see the issue with 'How many platinum are in your deck?'
Comparison - 'How many moose are blocking the road?'
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Well, in common speech "platinum" is basically never used as a count noun. I suppose you might pluralize it if you were talking about different shades of the color platinum? Though I'd expect "shades of platinum" for that.
In Dominion I'd be strongly inclined to use "Platinums" to refer to multiple instances of the "Platinum" card, as a shorthand for the probably less controversial "instances of Platinum" or "copies of Platinum". You could ask "How much Platinum do you have in your deck?" but that doesn't sit well with me since we're really talking about a count rather than an amount of a mass noun. Certainly I would feel wrong responding with "I have 5 Platinum" - 5 is a count!
I'd say 'how many platinum do you have' because many goes with count while much does not. Other than that, I don't see the issue with 'How many platinum are in your deck?'
Comparison - 'How many moose are blocking the road?'
In this case, "moose" is the plural (See: How many cows are blocking the road?), in which case, you are implying that Platinum is the plural of Platinum. Now, I don't really care whether Platinum or Platinums is the plural form of the word, however I must say Platina is stupid.
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The difference is that "moose" is a count noun whose plural really is "moose". You wouldn't say, "How many goose are blocking the road?" You'd use the actual plural: "geese". "Platinum", on the other hand, is a mass noun in common speech and AFAIK doesn't have an accepted plural.
Any time you're using a count noun in the plural, you need to use the plural form. Since "platinum" doesn't normally have a plural, in a technical context (like Dominion) where we might want to use it as a count noun, I'd expect to pluralize it in the standard way: by adding an "s". Same way you'd pluralize another proper noun from outside standard usage, like a surname. But those wishing to avoid offending any stodgy grammarians anywhere might be advised to use something like "copies of Platinum".
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Well, in common speech "platinum" is basically never used as a count noun. I suppose you might pluralize it if you were talking about different shades of the color platinum? Though I'd expect "shades of platinum" for that.
In Dominion I'd be strongly inclined to use "Platinums" to refer to multiple instances of the "Platinum" card, as a shorthand for the probably less controversial "instances of Platinum" or "copies of Platinum". You could ask "How much Platinum do you have in your deck?" but that doesn't sit well with me since we're really talking about a count rather than an amount of a mass noun. Certainly I would feel wrong responding with "I have 5 Platinum" - 5 is a count!
I'd say 'how many platinum do you have' because many goes with count while much does not. Other than that, I don't see the issue with 'How many platinum are in your deck?'
Comparison - 'How many moose are blocking the road?'
In this case, "moose" is the plural (See: How many cows are blocking the road?), in which case, you are implying that Platinum is the plural of Platinum. Now, I don't really care whether Platinum or Platinums is the plural form of the word, however I must say Platina is stupid.
Please read reply #18.
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But those wishing to avoid offending any stodgy grammarians anywhere might be advised to use something like "copies of Platinum".
Which, on the other hand, is also not really correct because you are only talking about a card that symbolizes a Platinum...
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Well, in common speech "platinum" is basically never used as a count noun. I suppose you might pluralize it if you were talking about different shades of the color platinum? Though I'd expect "shades of platinum" for that.
In Dominion I'd be strongly inclined to use "Platinums" to refer to multiple instances of the "Platinum" card, as a shorthand for the probably less controversial "instances of Platinum" or "copies of Platinum". You could ask "How much Platinum do you have in your deck?" but that doesn't sit well with me since we're really talking about a count rather than an amount of a mass noun. Certainly I would feel wrong responding with "I have 5 Platinum" - 5 is a count!
I'd say 'how many platinum do you have' because many goes with count while much does not. Other than that, I don't see the issue with 'How many platinum are in your deck?'
Comparison - 'How many moose are blocking the road?'
In this case, "moose" is the plural (See: How many cows are blocking the road?), in which case, you are implying that Platinum is the plural of Platinum. Now, I don't really care whether Platinum or Platinums is the plural form of the word, however I must say Platina is stupid.
I always call them Platinii.
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Which, on the other hand, is also not really correct because you are only talking about a card that symbolizes a Platinum...
We're really disappearing down the rabbit hole of pointless minutiae at this point... but when I say "Platinum" in the context of Dominion it's a proper noun that refers to a member of a specific card class - which class comprises multiple copies of the Platinum card.
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We're really disappearing down the rabbit hole of pointless minutiae at this point... but when I say "Platinum" in the context of Dominion it's a proper noun that refers to a member of a specific card class - which class comprises multiple copies of the Platinum card.
I was only proposing that you should answer nitpicking with nitpicking...
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I was only proposing that you should answer nitpicking with nitpicking...
And I'm proposing that your counter-counter-nitpicking was just wrong :P
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@WW - when I wrote "(a word that is also made up basically)" I was referring to the word 'platinums', which is the reason I thought it a little absurd to create a new version of it :)
But as I mentioned (notice apparently controversial use of 'but' :D), sometimes people do it knowingly and sort of half ironically (sounds like this might be the case here), it's just hard to tell over the intartubes.
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How this turned into an argument about proper speech is beyond me.
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In Dominion I'd be strongly inclined to use "Platinums" to refer to multiple instances of the "Platinum" card, as a shorthand for the probably less controversial "instances of Platinum" or "copies of Platinum".
Yes, if you don't want to say weird things you can just say "5 copies of Platinum;" otherwise since you are talking about the plural of a proper noun, it's "5 Platinums." If there were a Dominion card called Mouse, it would be "5 Mouses." There is a Dominion card called Nobles; it's "5 Nobleses." It's easy to see that it must also be "5 Jack of all Tradeses." And, oh yes, if you have 5 copies of Spy? "5 Spys."
That's just how you pluralize proper nouns. Or rather, it's how newspapers do. Feel free to say Platina or whatever; you may well manage to successfully communicate that way.
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Isn't it "how many Platinum cards do you have in your deck?"
Man, how this turned into an argument about proper speech is beyond me.
FTFY
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Erm, I just say "I've got three Silver and two Platinum." What's wrong with that?
(Platinii made me chuckle btw)
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For example, when people make plural's like this.
I raged on that sentence alone.
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Feel free to say Platina or whatever; you may well manage to successfully communicate that way.
Successfully communicate - that is exactly the whole point of language. As long as the recipients interpret your communication correctly then you have done it right. Sure you need a bunch of rules around grammar etc for formal communication, but there is no point in raging at someone for using an apostrophe in the wrong place on an internet message board.
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For example, when people make plural's like this.
I raged on that sentence alone.
Then how do you dot your is and cross your ts?
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http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2478#comic
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Anyone here read Ridley Walker? Or perhaps Feersum Endjinn by Iain M Banks? (one quarter of the book is like the title)
It's intelligible and communicates, but by God it's an effort to read those. For me, language is not simply about making sure they get it - even a child can do that, it's a balance between the ease of understanding and the clarity and precision with which you articulate your point. Just because someone got a point you made and replied doesn't mean everyone did, especially those translating.
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I'm currently translating Dominion cards into my own made-up language <.<
I know this is an old thread, but what was the result of this project? I've dabbled in language creation myself, and this seems interesting to me. I might try to do this myself.
Also, I'm winning.
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Someone on here has his own project with Dominion notation, akin to Chess. The problem is, that will ultimately just fail when taken to the extreme. Dominion is far too complex. I've tried it myself, and the best solution is simply shortening certain common things into one or two letters, like copper becomes c and estate is e. Gold is g, Silver s, etc. It makes sense for the base cards in every game.
There are some other things I use for shorthand as well.
Remodel Herald > Gold. Generally, ">" means some transformative thing, like a remodel.
I'm down for trying another collaberative shorthand for Dominion with others.
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I think the forum has made me more thoughtful. I used to comment on RSP stuff but I think it's better to stalk threads, so that's what I do now. But speech patterns? I guess I accidentally reference stuff from the forum from time to time.
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I actually started using cantrip when referring to +1 card +1 action cards around my family, even though I am the only one on the forums. Like, if I were to describe, say, peddler to a beginning player who gets the rules, but hasn't seen the card (trust me, it happens more often than you think) I might call it a cantrip that gives a coin and has a weird cost thingy.
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Comparison - 'How many moose are blocking the road?'
https://youtu.be/bLFDJKQ5V9M?t=50
(Skip to 0:50; YouTube's link-to-time-stamp isn't playing nice with the embedding)
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I actually started using cantrip when referring to +1 card +1 action cards around my family, even though I am the only one on the forums. Like, if I were to describe, say, peddler to a beginning player who gets the rules, but hasn't seen the card (trust me, it happens more often than you think) I might call it a cantrip that gives a coin and has a weird cost thingy.
I do that with all of the nerdy Dominion lingo.
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In Dominion I'd be strongly inclined to use "Platinums" to refer to multiple instances of the "Platinum" card, as a shorthand for the probably less controversial "instances of Platinum" or "copies of Platinum".
Yes, if you don't want to say weird things you can just say "5 copies of Platinum;" otherwise since you are talking about the plural of a proper noun, it's "5 Platinums." If there were a Dominion card called Mouse, it would be "5 Mouses." There is a Dominion card called Nobles; it's "5 Nobleses." It's easy to see that it must also be "5 Jack of all Tradeses." And, oh yes, if you have 5 copies of Spy? "5 Spys."
That's just how you pluralize proper nouns. Or rather, it's how newspapers do. Feel free to say Platina or whatever; you may well manage to successfully communicate that way.
Gollum would be good at Dominion.
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Man, I was just about to comment on this.
I mean, I was going to make this joke.
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Six years later, apparently.
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Holy crap it's been longer than 5 years since I posted this. Which means it's been longer than 5 years since I joined the forum.
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Man, it's been longer than 5 years since I posted this. Which means it's been longer than 5 years since I joined the forum.
Fixed that for you.