Dominion Strategy Forum

Miscellaneous => Other Games => Hearthstone => Topic started by: theory on June 17, 2014, 06:43:54 pm

Title: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: theory on June 17, 2014, 06:43:54 pm
Share your adventures in constructed ranked, or casual!
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on June 17, 2014, 08:58:04 pm
Anyone have suggestions for great rankings of cards for constructed?  I use some Arena rankings, which are greatly helpful.  I feel like someone must have done a full list of all cards and ranked them by cost, like "Here are all 0-1 mana cost neutral commons, in rank order" and posted them somewhere.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on June 17, 2014, 11:01:18 pm
Anyone have suggestions for great rankings of cards for constructed?  I use some Arena rankings, which are greatly helpful.  I feel like someone must have done a full list of all cards and ranked them by cost, like "Here are all 0-1 mana cost neutral commons, in rank order" and posted them somewhere.
That doesn't really make sense for constructed because the goodness of cards depends more on how well they fit into the deck than in arena. For example, Shieldbearer is a terrible arena card, and in most constructed decks it's really bad too, but in zoo it's good.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on June 18, 2014, 02:49:00 am
Here is a quick rundown of what's played right now, if that helps. Neutral cards:

Edit: wait, I forgot souldbond stuff, I'll put it on bottom.

Other cards than these are rarely/never seen. Murlocks are only seen in dedicated deck, which ain't all that great.

1 drops
Argent Squire - 1 drop of choice of most decks, as it trades good with two 2/1s, and if you buff it it makes even better trades.
Leper Gnome - It's basically 2-4 damage for 1 mana, sometimes a lil more, usually aggressive deck run it.
Young Priestess - Zoo staple, any other agro deck that benefits from the effect.
Abusive Sargent - Zoo and similar very agressive deck that like good trades.
Shieldbearer - Zoo Staple.
Southsee Deckhand - Tempo Rogue.
Worgen Inflatrator - rarely seen, some players prefer this drop to other ones in agro decks. Like I saw some Shockadins that play it.
Elven Archer - anti-aggro tech.
Stonetusk - Hunter only.

2 Drops -
Thalnos - Anyone who can use +1 spellpower, which is many decks.
Ancent Watcher - Control decks, it comes in package with Defenders of Argust and..
Sunfury Protector - Control, see above.
Knife Juggler - Staple, any decks that can put out a lot of minions. Bonus points when it kills Leeroy before he attacks.
Dire Wolf Alpha - Aggro staple.
Wild Pyro - any deck that can cheat with it, i.e. Paladin/Druid/Priest control.
Loot Hoarder - Value creature, anybody who needs early body and draw power.
Faerie Dragon - when you need a 2 drop that doesn't die to early removal. Quite Decent.
Amani Berserker - Usually 1 of in Agro decks, it an be awkward to play against.
Ironbeak Owl - chapest neutral silence + trades. Played usually in deck that have to remove taunters.
Doomsayer - Freeze Mage/other low creature count controls.
Acidic - rarely, only those decks that get totally ripped by weaposn.
Bluegill - Aggro
Kobold Geomancer - if you see somebody play it, it's budget replacement for Thalnos.
Crocolisk - Midrange hunters. Trades favorable with 2/1s.

3 Drops
Harvest Golem - Super-value, anybody who can fit it.
Acoyle of Pain - those who can abuse it and need draw, i.e. Mage/Warrior Control.
Earthen Farseer - any deck that needs to surive a bit more, control and such. Mircle Rogue too.
Big Game Hunter - deck that don't have real removal (like druids) and need to get rid of big guys.
Arcane Golem - Finisher, if Leeroy is not nuff.
Injured Blademaster - Priests. Control ones.
Blood Knight - Meta-card, used when you think he has a lot of shields to steal.
Scarlet Crusader - Zoo, aggro.
Coldlight - some tempo Rogues, burn Mages, etc..
Mukla - some Hunters, some tempo Rogues..
Demolisher - Incrisingly popular in Druids.
Wolf Rider - aggro.
Shattered Sun - Zoo and zoo like.


4 Drops:
Leeroy - #1 favourite finisher, aggro, but basically anyone. Rogue cheats with it.
Defender of Argus - anybody who can fit it in, actually.
Twilight Drake - Handlock.
Dark Iron Dwarf - Zoo, aggro.
Violet Teacher - tokens.
Yeti - Those than need solid mid-game drops. Druid sometimes.
Sen'jin - same, but you also want to slow down aggro.


5 Drops -
Azure Drake - Everybody can use spell damage, good body and +1 card. Elite drop. Everybody play it.
Faceless - Usually control and other decks that can make huge minions and than copy them.
Gadgetan - Role player, Rogues mostly.
Harrison Jones - Control Warrior, I guess.
Kodo/Tiger - few midrange hunters, but those are dying out.

6 Drops -
Cairne - Elite drop. Midrange mostly.
Argent Commander - If you need to utility/burst.
Black Knight - see Big game hunter.
Sylvanas - some still run it, control decks.
Sunwalker - Hard to remove so he is played occasionally in slower decks, Midrange/control.

7+ Drops -
Geddon - control warrior.
Rag/Ysera - control finisher, Rag is more popular.
Alextrasza - Control. Freeze Mage/Warrior mostly.
Mountain/Molten Giant - Handlock.

Somebody else can do class cards.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on June 18, 2014, 04:09:28 am
Thanks Grujah!
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on June 18, 2014, 04:25:21 am
I missed Sunwalker, I see him from time to time as he is hard to remove.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Lekkit on June 18, 2014, 06:15:52 am
Two minor clarifications.

Farseer - any deck that needs to surive a bit more, control and such.

Earthen Ring, not Thrallmar.

Sunfury - Zoo and zoo like.

I think this is suposed to be Shattered Sun Cleric.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on June 18, 2014, 06:19:10 am
Yup on both.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on June 18, 2014, 12:32:04 pm
Minor additions/clarifications/disagreements:

2-drops:
Bloodsail Raider - More aggressive Warriors
Alchemist - Priest, to mess with attack power, and counter Shaman totems.
Mana Addict - some (weaker) versions of Miracle Rogue

3-drops:
MC tech - anti-zoo/shaman tech.
Imp Master - occassionally used in token Druid
Raging Worgen - some combo Warriors and Mages
Harvest Golem is only used as anti-aggro or if you need something sticky for buffs. Otherwise it's not that useful.
Coldlight is any "solitaire" decks where you don't really care about your opponent having cards. This is big combo like Miracle Rogue/Burn Mage, or all-out aggro.
Mukla is a risky but powerful play in tempo decks, so it shows up in some Warlocks as well.

4-drops:
Inventor - deck thinning with a body, sometimes in Miracle
Spellbreaker - sometimes in Watcher decks for more activators. Rarely in control decks as anti-Cairne

5-drops:
Nightblade - face Warrior
Abomination - rare anti-aggro
Venture Co. Mercenary - mostly only used by me, but it's great for control decks that don't hate the turn-after tempo loss. It serves as an extra threat in the control matchups, giving you an edge in the threats vs removals battle, while still being cheap enough to not waste hand space vs more aggresive decks.

6-drops:
Sylvanas - usually only if you have some combo with it, like Shield Slam or SW:Death

7+-drops:
Malygos - Spell Power Rogue
Giants are also used in other control decks

Oh and Murlocs:
The main ones used that haven't been mentioned are Murk-eye, Warleader, Seer, Tidecaller, and Tidehunter.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on June 18, 2014, 12:38:52 pm
Alchemist all sometimes with Mana Addict, as you can cheat and set Mana Addict's buffs to be permanent.

I skipped some of those on purpose, but sure.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on June 18, 2014, 03:08:38 pm
I use Venture Co. as well, but in my Priest deck that I don't play in ranked.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Obi Wan Bonogi on June 18, 2014, 08:09:50 pm
The decklists from last weekend's Dreamhack tournament are out: http://ihearthu.com/dreamhack-summer-group-stage-decklists/
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on June 18, 2014, 08:21:11 pm
Hmm... some standard stuff, but there are a few interesting lists that I might try out.

Amaz actually played Facehunter, fun :)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Obi Wan Bonogi on June 18, 2014, 08:59:16 pm
Yeah, it was cool to see that a couple of the guys who went against the grain were the ones that ended up in the finals, AMAZ with the only priest and RDU with the only top 8 mage.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on June 20, 2014, 03:40:21 am
Just played a level 17 Hunter in Ranked who dropped a Baron Geddon, Illidan, Alexstraza, and Cairne.

I beat him with my no legendary, mostly commons Control Pally deck.

That was nice.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on June 20, 2014, 09:58:53 am
Just played a level 17 Hunter in Ranked who dropped a Baron Geddon, Illidan, Alexstraza, and Cairne.

I beat him with my no legendary, mostly commons Control Pally deck.

That was nice.

Just goes to show that you can have tons of legendaries, but without actually thinking about your deck they are just as dead as anything else.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on June 20, 2014, 03:32:53 pm
Kodo/Tiger - few midrange hunters, but those are dying out.

I missed this one, but Kodos also show up a bunch of other places as anti-zoo/shaman tech.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on June 21, 2014, 01:30:48 pm
I just played a Priest vs. Priest where I had a Northshire on the board, and all my minions were damaged from my Wild Pyromancer. I have full hand and my opponent play Circle of Healing to burn through like, 8 cards of mine. It gave me a 29-2 Light Wardern, which he had to Shadow Word: Death. Still won easily, but it was pretty interesting.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on June 23, 2014, 04:06:06 pm
Another Priest laugh, I just thoughtstole two Thouthsteals.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on June 23, 2014, 05:20:26 pm
Another Priest laugh, I just thoughtstole two Thouthsteals.

Amaz would be overjoyed.

I mean, TS is the best card in the game :P
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on June 23, 2014, 05:22:12 pm
Another Priest laugh, I just thoughtstole two Thouthsteals.

Amaz would be overjoyed.

I mean, TS is the best card in the game :P

It has it's moments, that's for sure.

EDIT: Like the Golden Alakir I just stole.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Obi Wan Bonogi on June 23, 2014, 08:15:28 pm
Woo, I made legend! 

I had made it up to mid rank 1 three times with my goofy mage deck but couldn't break through the last few games.  So after falling back to rank 3 I loaded up my fairly standard Shaman deck and went on a hot streak. 

I haven't been running Unbound Elementals.  The borderline cards I was running were 2x Harvest Golem, 1x Chilwind, 1x Senjin, 1x Defender of Arg, 1x Argent Commander.    I feel like Shaman is where Druid used to be in that it has mostly solid mathups but is slightly under the radar.  It helps Shaman that Miracle Rogue is losing popularity.  Druid is the deck to beat right now.  I'm not sure that Shaman is the answer to druid but it's certainly not the worst choice. 
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on June 23, 2014, 09:06:29 pm
Congrats!!! Rank 2* is the best I've managed so far.

 Yeah, I agree on your definition of shaman.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on June 23, 2014, 10:26:51 pm
My current ranked deck is a Shaman deck and it's pretty solid. With the right opening cards you get get passed Innervated stuff, and Hex is good for large drops that Druid can put out. I'm pretty sure the worst matchup is against Hunter, but they lost a lot of popularity after the UTH nerf.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on June 23, 2014, 10:29:00 pm
My current, most successful Ranked deck is 3-Mana UTH Trap Hunter.  With the right draw, it's pretty amazing.  It struggles against control decks or other decks with very few minions, since it really depends on Starving Buzzard + UTH to go off.

You can tell when you are playing someone who isn't super familiar with Hunter decks, though.  Dropping four minions with 2 or less life right before attacking me and I have a trap set?  Shoulda tested for Explosive Trap.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on June 23, 2014, 10:44:22 pm
My current, most successful Ranked deck is 3-Mana UTH Trap Hunter.  With the right draw, it's pretty amazing.  It struggles against control decks or other decks with very few minions, since it really depends on Starving Buzzard + UTH to go off.

You can tell when you are playing someone who isn't super familiar with Hunter decks, though.  Dropping four minions with 2 or less life right before attacking me and I have a trap set?  Shoulda tested for Explosive Trap.

Yeah it's pretty brutal the first few times until you learn to check for secrets. the best is opponent plays Buzzard and secret, and I use a spell to kill the Buzzard. Yay, 3 1/1's at the wrong time.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on June 23, 2014, 10:57:16 pm
My current ranked deck is a Shaman deck and it's pretty solid. With the right opening cards you get get passed Innervated stuff, and Hex is good for large drops that Druid can put out. I'm pretty sure the worst matchup is against Hunter, but they lost a lot of popularity after the UTH nerf.

Hunters are quite rare now.

My currently "main" deck is, I've just realized, the same one that ek0p played on DH.
Rogue one: http://ihearthu.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/EKOP.png

Deck needs a bit play to get used to, but is much fun, and more consistant than I expected. I believe that the worst matchup is Warlock as feeding him cards is a way bigger liability than usual.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on June 23, 2014, 11:34:00 pm
My current, most successful Ranked deck is 3-Mana UTH Trap Hunter.  With the right draw, it's pretty amazing.  It struggles against control decks or other decks with very few minions, since it really depends on Starving Buzzard + UTH to go off.

You can tell when you are playing someone who isn't super familiar with Hunter decks, though.  Dropping four minions with 2 or less life right before attacking me and I have a trap set?  Shoulda tested for Explosive Trap.

Yeah it's pretty brutal the first few times until you learn to check for secrets. the best is opponent plays Buzzard and secret, and I use a spell to kill the Buzzard. Yay, 3 1/1's at the wrong time.

One of the best lessons I've learned in playing HS is when not to play your cards.  Sometimes you just have to use your UTH to clear the board, but if you build a deck around combos, wait for the combos.  Mulligan hard, don't be afraid.  I thought Tracking was always a sort of crappy card, but when you just need one card to make things happen, go for it.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on June 23, 2014, 11:41:12 pm
My current, most successful Ranked deck is 3-Mana UTH Trap Hunter.  With the right draw, it's pretty amazing.  It struggles against control decks or other decks with very few minions, since it really depends on Starving Buzzard + UTH to go off.

You can tell when you are playing someone who isn't super familiar with Hunter decks, though.  Dropping four minions with 2 or less life right before attacking me and I have a trap set?  Shoulda tested for Explosive Trap.

Yeah it's pretty brutal the first few times until you learn to check for secrets. the best is opponent plays Buzzard and secret, and I use a spell to kill the Buzzard. Yay, 3 1/1's at the wrong time.

One of the best lessons I've learned in playing HS is when not to play your cards.  Sometimes you just have to use your UTH to clear the board, but if you build a deck around combos, wait for the combos.  Mulligan hard, don't be afraid.  I thought Tracking was always a sort of crappy card, but when you just need one card to make things happen, go for it.
Yeah I wasn't completely sold on tracking until I appreciated its deck thinning/sifting. That's something Hunter can really use. Even Flare is essentially a 1-mana cantrip. One less stop card to get in the way of your combo cards. If Flare's other effects come into play, all the better.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on June 24, 2014, 12:08:43 am
My current, most successful Ranked deck is 3-Mana UTH Trap Hunter.  With the right draw, it's pretty amazing.  It struggles against control decks or other decks with very few minions, since it really depends on Starving Buzzard + UTH to go off.

You can tell when you are playing someone who isn't super familiar with Hunter decks, though.  Dropping four minions with 2 or less life right before attacking me and I have a trap set?  Shoulda tested for Explosive Trap.

Yeah it's pretty brutal the first few times until you learn to check for secrets. the best is opponent plays Buzzard and secret, and I use a spell to kill the Buzzard. Yay, 3 1/1's at the wrong time.

One of the best lessons I've learned in playing HS is when not to play your cards.  Sometimes you just have to use your UTH to clear the board, but if you build a deck around combos, wait for the combos.  Mulligan hard, don't be afraid.  I thought Tracking was always a sort of crappy card, but when you just need one card to make things happen, go for it.
Yeah I wasn't completely sold on tracking until I appreciated its deck thinning/sifting. That's something Hunter can really use. Even Flare is essentially a 1-mana cantrip. One less stop card to get in the way of your combo cards. If Flare's other effects come into play, all the better.

If Flare destroys a secret you're in the money. Like, wow it's good. but otherwise I'm not convinced it's much good in a deck, even for the deck thinning.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on June 24, 2014, 01:05:06 am
My current, most successful Ranked deck is 3-Mana UTH Trap Hunter.  With the right draw, it's pretty amazing.  It struggles against control decks or other decks with very few minions, since it really depends on Starving Buzzard + UTH to go off.

You can tell when you are playing someone who isn't super familiar with Hunter decks, though.  Dropping four minions with 2 or less life right before attacking me and I have a trap set?  Shoulda tested for Explosive Trap.

Yeah it's pretty brutal the first few times until you learn to check for secrets. the best is opponent plays Buzzard and secret, and I use a spell to kill the Buzzard. Yay, 3 1/1's at the wrong time.

One of the best lessons I've learned in playing HS is when not to play your cards.  Sometimes you just have to use your UTH to clear the board, but if you build a deck around combos, wait for the combos.  Mulligan hard, don't be afraid.  I thought Tracking was always a sort of crappy card, but when you just need one card to make things happen, go for it.
Yeah I wasn't completely sold on tracking until I appreciated its deck thinning/sifting. That's something Hunter can really use. Even Flare is essentially a 1-mana cantrip. One less stop card to get in the way of your combo cards. If Flare's other effects come into play, all the better.

If Flare destroys a secret you're in the money. Like, wow it's good. but otherwise I'm not convinced it's much good in a deck, even for the deck thinning.

I don't run it, but I've seen a lot of Hunters with it.  Seems situational, like Ooze, except not as awesome as Oozing a huge weapon.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on June 24, 2014, 01:11:40 am
My current, most successful Ranked deck is 3-Mana UTH Trap Hunter.  With the right draw, it's pretty amazing.  It struggles against control decks or other decks with very few minions, since it really depends on Starving Buzzard + UTH to go off.

You can tell when you are playing someone who isn't super familiar with Hunter decks, though.  Dropping four minions with 2 or less life right before attacking me and I have a trap set?  Shoulda tested for Explosive Trap.

Yeah it's pretty brutal the first few times until you learn to check for secrets. the best is opponent plays Buzzard and secret, and I use a spell to kill the Buzzard. Yay, 3 1/1's at the wrong time.

One of the best lessons I've learned in playing HS is when not to play your cards.  Sometimes you just have to use your UTH to clear the board, but if you build a deck around combos, wait for the combos.  Mulligan hard, don't be afraid.  I thought Tracking was always a sort of crappy card, but when you just need one card to make things happen, go for it.
Yeah I wasn't completely sold on tracking until I appreciated its deck thinning/sifting. That's something Hunter can really use. Even Flare is essentially a 1-mana cantrip. One less stop card to get in the way of your combo cards. If Flare's other effects come into play, all the better.

If Flare destroys a secret you're in the money. Like, wow it's good. but otherwise I'm not convinced it's much good in a deck, even for the deck thinning.

I don't run it, but I've seen a lot of Hunters with it.  Seems situational, like Ooze, except not as awesome as Oozing a huge weapon.

Except there is always the chance to get 2 secrets. It's fun :D. And unstealthing things too. Conceal mrs Rogue? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on June 24, 2014, 07:10:19 am
You play Flare as a one-of. You usually do not have A T1 play in hunter decks so you just play it out against most matchups.

Against Hunter or Mage (esp. Freeze Mage with Ice Blocks) it is difference between victory or defeat.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on June 24, 2014, 10:48:23 am
I don't run [Flare], but I've seen a lot of Hunters with it.  Seems situational, like Ooze, except not as awesome as Oozing a huge weapon.
It's not really like Ooze, because there is very little risk/variance. Ooze either is a huge blowout vs a weapon, or just a 3/2, which is pretty useless in a lot of decks. Flare almost always just purely thins the deck. You have 1 spare mana at some point, and you cycle it. And then when you see a deck where you can get value, you can save it instead. But even then, you probably just cycle it if you get the chance, since whatever you would save it for is usually not that big of a deal (except Ice Block).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on June 25, 2014, 05:41:25 am
Jeez, I have to share this match!

Playing as Coldlight Rogue. I go first, vs a Rogue (Miracle), keeping Mukla and Leper Gnome, mulling into Sap.
His life in brackets, my life is irrelevant.

T1. Me - Leper Gnome, He -  Backstab. (28).
T2. Me - Weapon, attack, He - the same (27).
T3. Me - Mukla, attack for 1, He - Preparation, Fan of Knives, Sap (26)
T4. Me - Mukla! He -Gnomish Inventor, Coin, Banana (He's hands are full and needs to get rid of stuff)
T5. Me - Sap, Arcane Golem, Attack for 9, Shadowstep, He - Auctioneer, Banana, maybe some irrelevant stuff. (17)
T6  Me - Golem (for 1), Coldlight, Kill his actioneer with Sap as his hand is full, attack for 9. He - I GIVE UP. (9)

Such a priceless game.  ;D
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: chairs on June 27, 2014, 06:15:44 pm
I'd love to have one of you guys look over my cards and tell me what I can do to not be shite at this game.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on June 27, 2014, 06:26:56 pm
I'd love to have one of you guys look over my cards and tell me what I can do to not be shite at this game.

What's you username and #? I'll add you and we can play a game or two and I can tell you what's up. Easy things you might be doing wrong are things like hitting the other person's hero instead of killing minions, or picking too many high cost cards for your decks. I have no idea otherwise what you maybe doing wrong.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on June 28, 2014, 10:10:16 am
I'd love to have one of you guys look over my cards and tell me what I can do to not be shite at this game.

I wish there was game logs that could be output. The only way to really get a full idea is to have someone watch over your shoulder, either by having someone literally there, or capturing screen output.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on June 30, 2014, 02:42:52 am
Is "Playing Your Opponent's Cards Priest" a thing?  I've faced multiple priests in constructed running the cardstealing cards and using my cards against me.  There's the "random card from hand," "two random cards from deck," and "one random minion directly into play" cards for a total of 8 of my cards played against me.

It seems inconsistent at best to base a deck around, though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on June 30, 2014, 04:50:28 am
No it is not. Mind Vision and Mind Games aren't really played. (Outside of fun decks such as "Randuin" :P).

Now, Thoughtsteal is. It is actually good. Watch some Amaz's videos to see it at it's best.
It IS a quirky card, though.
It's basically Arcane Intellect with pros and cons.
Sure, it's "less consistent" and can whiff completely by drawing unplayables, but it's rare.

OTOH..
There is a strategic advantage in knowing that certain cads are still in opponent's deck and not in hand. Especially when they have one big finisher that you need to worry about (Grommash, Force of Nature).
Drawing from their deck usually gives you decent stuff that you actually need. For example, if you are playing against a control, you are more likely to get lategame stuff, value stuff against midrange, cheap bodies for trade vs aggro (though it's at it's worst against aggro decks).
Having cards in your deck that aren't in your class is beneficial. It gives you more potential outs (before and after you cast TS). It makes people play around more stuff than usual, or get punished for it. Gives you access to things that you really need but cant have (weapons, for example), thus making you somewhat more versatile.
In lategame, versus slower decks, it virtually increases your decksize (cuz you draw two but do not lose cards from deck), which means that fatigue hits you later (you get to see/play 34 cards before fatigue hits, your opponent 30), which can be important.


It's not like "leagues better than Arcane Intellect" but it has its advantages.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on June 30, 2014, 07:45:57 pm
Ended up Rank 3. Not completely satisfied, but not bad at all.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on June 30, 2014, 08:18:18 pm
Ended up Rank 3. Not completely satisfied, but not bad at all.
I dug in and zoo'd to legend just to see whether I could do it. Took 81 games to get there from high rank 7.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on June 30, 2014, 11:39:10 pm
Great job!

I cant stand playing Zoo, though I do have it. I also need a better build.
I played, from most to least:
Coldlight Rogue
Token Shaman
Paladin Weenies (Zoo/Aggro)

Though I pretty much benched shaman now.

(And very little of Aggro Mage, Midrange Hunter and Zoolock).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on July 01, 2014, 05:32:54 am
Well, it took me four tries, but I finally won a game in Casual with this deck:

2x Deadly Poison
2x Grimscale Oracle
2x Murloc Tidecaller
2x Southsea Deckhand
1x Blade Flurry
2x Bloodsail Raider
2x Bluegill Warrior
2x Captain's Parrot
2x Murloc Tidehunter
2x Coldlight Oracle
2x Coldlight Seer
1x Murloc Warleader (I only have one :()
2x Southsea Captain
1x Leeroy Jenkins
1x Old Murk-Eye
1x Assassin's Blade
1x Captain Greenskin
2x Sprint

I should clarify that the game I won was because my opponent disconnected and forfeited before the mulligan.

---

Edit: Okay, just won a game legit with that deck, against a Hunter. I think the pivotal moment was when I played Murloc Tidecaller + Murloc Tidehunter + Murloc Tidehunter on turn 5 and he didn't play UTH.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 01, 2014, 07:43:13 am
Why Rogue with Murlocks?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on July 01, 2014, 01:48:44 pm
Ended up Rank 3. Not completely satisfied, but not bad at all.
I dug in and zoo'd to legend just to see whether I could do it. Took 81 games to get there from high rank 7.

That's pretty impressive. You must have gone something like 55-26?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on July 01, 2014, 02:33:06 pm
Ended up Rank 3. Not completely satisfied, but not bad at all.
I dug in and zoo'd to legend just to see whether I could do it. Took 81 games to get there from high rank 7.

That's pretty impressive. You must have gone something like 55-26?
Here are the per-rank stats from when I started tracking. (Once or twice I forgot to immediately notate down when I advanced rank, so they might be slightly off due to guessing when it switched over.) Looks like it was actually 80 games. Otherwise, your estimated record would be dead on. Nice. :)

Rank 7: 3-2
Rank 6: 3-0
Rank 5: 4-0
Rank 4: 7-2
Rank 3 (first session): 13-11
Rank 3 (second session): 4-1
Rank 2: 7-2
Rank 1 (first session): 10-8
Rank 1 (second session): 3-0

Total: 54-26

At rank 3 and rank 1, when I sensed that the competition was getting tougher, I took a break and tried again at a different time of day, which seemed to help a lot.

The deck is exactly Kolento's last published zoo: http://imgur.com/a/zDZCM#5 (http://imgur.com/a/zDZCM#5). That's from April, so I don't know whether it's considered a good list anymore.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Obi Wan Bonogi on July 04, 2014, 12:04:10 pm
Finally broke down, cleaned out the binder, and dropped 4k dust to build Miracle Rogue!   AhhhhHHhhH

If you can't beat 'em join 'em, right?  (I hate myself)

Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 04, 2014, 12:49:48 pm
Finally broke down, cleaned out the binder, and dropped 4k dust to build Miracle Rogue!   AhhhhHHhhH

If you can't beat 'em join 'em, right?  (I hate myself)

I'll have to do this sooner or later, as I've opened two golden Gadgetan Engineers that I don't want to go to waste :P
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on July 05, 2014, 07:53:16 pm
Anyone know how ranked matchmaking works between legend and non-legend? For non-legend, I've read that they just try to match similarly-ranked players together, and I assume it's the same for legend (except using some kind of MMR instead of the star-and-rank system). But what are they doing when pairing legend and non-legend?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on July 05, 2014, 10:15:04 pm
Anyone know how ranked matchmaking works between legend and non-legend? For non-legend, I've read that they just try to match similarly-ranked players together, and I assume it's the same for legend (except using some kind of MMR instead of the star-and-rank system). But what are they doing when pairing legend and non-legend?

My guess is that there is also a wait time factor, where they want to reduce waiting time to play. So they pair you a legend player.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 09, 2014, 05:04:52 pm
Is it just me or do these Control Paladins have no ways to beat Zoo whatsoever?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on July 09, 2014, 06:17:51 pm
Is it just me or do these Control Paladins have no ways to beat Zoo whatsoever?

Consecration? Lot's of 1/1 minoins? Other than that I don't know.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 09, 2014, 06:27:03 pm
I've been steamrolling them.

Consecration is easiest Wrath to play around (much easier than anything that Freeze Mage or Handlock have). 1/1s never trade up.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on July 09, 2014, 08:13:50 pm
I've been steamrolling them.

Consecration is easiest Wrath to play around (much easier than anything that Freeze Mage or Handlock have). 1/1s never trade up.

I know they won't trade up. Did you first sentence mean Consecration is easier to play around? or that Wrath is easier to play around?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on July 09, 2014, 08:27:58 pm
I've been steamrolling them.

Consecration is easiest Wrath to play around (much easier than anything that Freeze Mage or Handlock have). 1/1s never trade up.

I know they won't trade up. Did you first sentence mean Consecration is easier to play around? or that Wrath is easier to play around?

I think by Wrath (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Wrath+of+God) he meant mass removal.

And I think the main anti-zoo tools Paladin runs are Pyro, Equality, a lot of heal (including Truesilver) and often Kodo. But it's uphill, because Paladin isn't good at establishing an early board presence.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on July 09, 2014, 08:53:35 pm
How do the aggro Paladins compare to Zoo? I feel like it's silly to rely on Divine Favour for draw when you could just be a Warlock and have it all the time.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on July 10, 2014, 12:04:28 am
How do the aggro Paladins compare to Zoo? I feel like it's silly to rely on Divine Favour for draw when you could just be a Warlock and have it all the time.

It's a totally different kind of deck. It's pure aggro, like face hunter or rogue. As a result, it's much better against things like miracle rogue. People also play aggro warlock, but that's a little worse, as it has no good way of dealing with taunt.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on July 10, 2014, 01:43:22 am
How do the aggro Paladins compare to Zoo? I feel like it's silly to rely on Divine Favour for draw when you could just be a Warlock and have it all the time.

It's a totally different kind of deck. It's pure aggro, like face hunter or rogue. As a result, it's much better against things like miracle rogue. People also play aggro warlock, but that's a little worse, as it has no good way of dealing with taunt.
When playing Miracle Rogue, I feel like aggro Paladin is usually an easy win, provided that you keep in mind to be wasteful with your cards so that the Paladin can't play a huge Divine Favour. The Rogue hero power easily keeps the 1/1s from getting out of control, and without a big Divine Favour, they run out of cards. Warlock zoo (the board control version) is a harder matchup, although I think still favoured for the Rogue.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on July 10, 2014, 01:54:45 am
I've been steamrolling them.

Consecration is easiest Wrath to play around (much easier than anything that Freeze Mage or Handlock have). 1/1s never trade up.

I know they won't trade up. Did you first sentence mean Consecration is easier to play around? or that Wrath is easier to play around?

I think by Wrath (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Wrath+of+God) he meant mass removal.
That is a confusing term to use in the context of HS.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 10, 2014, 09:49:36 am
Yeah, Hivemind is probably right, he has trouble having early presence so you can just hit face.

If he hits 5/6 guy that restores health that can be a problem, but other heals are not that bad.
Pyro/Equi hits hard but it's not like you cannot get back, getting back is what you are good at.

@ycz6 - Well, Wrath or Verdict as a word for mass removal is so rooted now that I cannot help it :P


In other news,
A zoo list just played Siphon Soul on me.
What the hell?
And it's rank 4.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on July 10, 2014, 09:51:55 am

In other news,
A zoo list just played Siphon Soul on me.
What the hell?
And it's rank 4.

Bahahaha. Did you lose because of it?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 10, 2014, 10:43:01 am
No, I did not.

I mean, he did go for face instead of trade and did play Leper Gnome (and those are signs of bad decks/players) but when turn 6 he Life Taped and ended his turn with 3 cards in hand (and against a board of a few creatures) I was.. surprised, to say at least. But than Siphon Soul next turn was even more surprising. :D

I've seen Argent Commanders and Black Knights, but Siphon Soul? Wow.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on July 10, 2014, 11:39:46 am
No, I did not.

I mean, he did go for face instead of trade and did play Leper Gnome (and those are signs of bad decks/players) but when turn 6 he Life Taped and ended his turn with 3 cards in hand (and against a board of a few creatures) I was.. surprised, to say at least. But than Siphon Soul next turn was even more surprising. :D

I've seen Argent Commanders and Black Knights, but Siphon Soul? Wow.

I guess argent is used as a replacement for doomguard. Never seen black knight in a zoo deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on July 10, 2014, 12:23:58 pm
At some point it stops being zoo, and starts being mid-range...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on July 10, 2014, 01:22:49 pm
At some point it stops being zoo, and starts being mid-range...

Except there aren't really any mid range warlocks
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 10, 2014, 03:46:56 pm
No, I did not.

I mean, he did go for face instead of trade and did play Leper Gnome (and those are signs of bad decks/players) but when turn 6 he Life Taped and ended his turn with 3 cards in hand (and against a board of a few creatures) I was.. surprised, to say at least. But than Siphon Soul next turn was even more surprising. :D

I've seen Argent Commanders and Black Knights, but Siphon Soul? Wow.

I guess argent is used as a replacement for doomguard. Never seen black knight in a zoo deck.

Nah, I've seen Argent in adition to doomguard. I mean, sure, it trades very well, but 6 mana is very high for that deck. Not too thrilled.

I've seen TBK in the most recent tournament, one that was hosted by Bob (Numbericable Cup or something like that).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on July 10, 2014, 04:02:48 pm
Leper Gnome (and those are signs of bad decks/players)
Isn't Leper Gnome just a sign of a more face-oriented zoo as opposed to the standard board control-oriented zoo? Board control must be a stronger approach since that's how top players focus their zoo decks, but it seems to me that in certain matchups face zoo might do better. e.g. Against Rogue, maybe putting the additional pressure on their life total is a good thing.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 10, 2014, 04:11:54 pm
Yeah, I guess you do have a better matchup against zoo, but Leper Gnome goes against the philosophy of Zoo (and I've made Leper Gnome mistake before).

I mean, sure, you can play it if you want more damage to the face, but like any other one drop provides way better value.

And FWIW, I see much less rogues on EU recently.

30/17/13/10 for Lock/Druid/Rogue/Warrior according to my stats. (this season).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: theory on July 10, 2014, 04:51:18 pm
No, I did not.

I mean, he did go for face instead of trade and did play Leper Gnome (and those are signs of bad decks/players) but when turn 6 he Life Taped and ended his turn with 3 cards in hand (and against a board of a few creatures) I was.. surprised, to say at least. But than Siphon Soul next turn was even more surprising. :D

I've seen Argent Commanders and Black Knights, but Siphon Soul? Wow.

I guess argent is used as a replacement for doomguard. Never seen black knight in a zoo deck.

Nah, I've seen Argent in adition to doomguard. I mean, sure, it trades very well, but 6 mana is very high for that deck. Not too thrilled.

I really don't like it.  Drawing it with your Doomguard really stinks.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on July 10, 2014, 05:10:21 pm
At some point it stops being zoo, and starts being mid-range...

Except there aren't really any mid range warlocks

Not if you insist of calling them all "zoo". But if the deck curve is really going all the way to 6, with 3+ cards up there, it's not really zoo anymore...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 10, 2014, 08:22:47 pm
I never understood why is it called Zoo anyway.

It has no cats (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Wild+Nacatl), apes (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ddh/2.jpg) or lions. (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Loam+Lion) Not even elephants (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/rtr/178.jpg) or boars (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/m13/171.jpg).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on July 10, 2014, 09:58:44 pm
I used to run 1x Siphon Soul in my board control Warlock, because there weren't that many ways to deal with big taunts in the way. In retrospect, Power Overwhelming is probably good enough, and Doomguard can break through a lot of stuff.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 11, 2014, 02:46:34 am
Thing is you can almost all the time trade with anything efficiently. Occasionally Sunwalker or 5/10 Tree will be a problem where you have to trade badly. I do not think that varants Siphon Soul.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on July 11, 2014, 11:15:12 am
Any 5+ mana card is going to get discarded by Soulfire or Doomguard too much to really be useful, I think.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on July 11, 2014, 11:20:10 am
Yeah, I guess you do have a better matchup against zoo, but Leper Gnome goes against the philosophy of Zoo (and I've made Leper Gnome mistake before).
What I mean is, while yes standard zoo is focused on board control and Leper Gnome does not help much with that (apart from being a 1-drop), with some changes the deck can increase its focus on face damage, and there Leper Gnome fits well, such as this: http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/458017-eroms-16hp-lock-guide. (I haven't tried it, so I can't say whether it's any good.) Maybe such a deck wouldn't correctly be called "zoo".
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 11, 2014, 11:27:11 am
Yeah, when you have DG in hand, you pretty much want to draw something that you can play so that you can slam DG (like, 2 drop if you have 7 mana).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on July 13, 2014, 03:28:05 am
Yeah, I guess you do have a better matchup against zoo, but Leper Gnome goes against the philosophy of Zoo (and I've made Leper Gnome mistake before).
What I mean is, while yes standard zoo is focused on board control and Leper Gnome does not help much with that (apart from being a 1-drop), with some changes the deck can increase its focus on face damage, and there Leper Gnome fits well, such as this: http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/458017-eroms-16hp-lock-guide. (I haven't tried it, so I can't say whether it's any good.) Maybe such a deck wouldn't correctly be called "zoo".

Just tried it out, had to replace Leeroy with DG and one juggler.  Went 4-1 so far.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on July 13, 2014, 11:08:18 am
Yeah, I guess you do have a better matchup against zoo, but Leper Gnome goes against the philosophy of Zoo (and I've made Leper Gnome mistake before).
What I mean is, while yes standard zoo is focused on board control and Leper Gnome does not help much with that (apart from being a 1-drop), with some changes the deck can increase its focus on face damage, and there Leper Gnome fits well, such as this: http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/458017-eroms-16hp-lock-guide. (I haven't tried it, so I can't say whether it's any good.) Maybe such a deck wouldn't correctly be called "zoo".

I've been playing some casual where I've seen tons of zoo decks. I'm playing Priest in casual, and I always beat "zoo" decks that go for the face, while zoo decks that go for control are like playing a normal game.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on July 13, 2014, 03:20:52 pm
An interested constructed trend in zoo is the replacement of Mortal Coil by Elven Archer. I say "trend" because if you look at older zoo decks, they would typically run Mortal Coil, such as in Reynad's original popularization from February (http://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/1z5221/reynad_here_with_the_best_deck_in_the_game_right/) and the zoo Kolento was playing in April (http://imgur.com/a/zDZCM#5), whereas Kolento's recent deck runs Archer instead (http://imgur.com/a/ERGHy#0).

I didn't realize before how similar these two cards are, but if you think of them as both doing 1 targeted damage, then it makes sense. Here's a comparison.

Legal targets for 1 damage
Mortal Coil: Minions only.
Archer: Any character.
Note: 1 face damage is only rarely useful, but it does sometimes win games.
Edge: Archer slightly.

Bonus (beyond doing 1 damage)
Mortal Coil: Draw a card.
Elven Archer: Put a 1/1 on the board.
Note: Coil's bonus is basically Warlock's hero power, and Archer's bonus basically Paladin's hero power. Warlock's hero power is better, but since you're playing Warlock, you already have access to it.
Edge: About even.

Bonus condition
Mortal Coil: Must kill the target minion.
Elven Archer: Unconditional.
Note: There are two important cases where you may not be able to kill the minion with the damage: popping Divine Shield on 2+ health minions and activating your own Amani Berserkers. Otherwise, you can order the damage so that the Coil kills the minion. Divine Shield on 2+ health minions is relevant in the mirror (because of buffs) and against decks running Sunwalkers. (Against an empty board is also a case but you usually don't want to play Archer in that situation unless you're trying to clear your hand for Doomguard/Soulfire.)
Edge: Archer easily.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on July 13, 2014, 03:41:09 pm
I don't think Coil is good in Zoo decks, or at least it doesn't really help keep control of the board. You aren't searching for cards like in a handlock deck, you just need minion presence, so I agree that Archer easily beats Coil for typical zoo decks.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on July 13, 2014, 04:09:45 pm
As I understand it, Coil is mostly in zoo to help with the mirror.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 18, 2014, 06:49:48 am
Is control Rogue a thing?

Cuz a guy just assassinated my Doom Guard.
Nearly costed me the game.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on July 18, 2014, 07:33:16 am
Is control Rogue a thing?

Cuz a guy just assassinated my Doom Guard.
Nearly costed me the game.

My Rogue for doing quests is control ish. It does pretty well against Zoo with all the early Si;agent and backstab stuff +hero power. Plus yeah, killing those Zoomguards is fun.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 18, 2014, 08:10:52 am
I've just hit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ijk3nepXmM

Playing zoolock, here's the list:
(https://scontent-b-vie.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/10492220_612501905536293_9111214072566981136_n.jpg)

89-59 zoolock stats. (quite worse if I include other things I've played before zoolock this month).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on July 18, 2014, 11:23:40 am
Nice. Since you're running Amani Berserker, I propose replacing the coils with archers, since they can activate the berserker to trade with 5 health minions, but also based off the analysis in my earlier post http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11325.msg399021#msg399021 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11325.msg399021#msg399021) that archer may be better in general.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 18, 2014, 07:14:53 pm
I didn't try it, so I'm just speculating, but Archer seems worse to me than Coil.

Ok, I mean, if you go with things that "one can do and other cant":

Archer:
Can pop shield and leave 1/1 body. (best vs Sunwalker)
Can activate Amani and leave 1/1 body. (though I only play 1 Amani)
Can shoot face.
Sometimes you have Coil and Doomguard/0 mana burn in hand and you don't really want to draw as you are going to discard that card anyway.

Coil:
Efficiently makes your deck 2 cards thinner (Flare effect) and can more  dig for that one card that you need (Doomguard/burn/Wolf/Sargent usualy). With hero power, you can dig for 3.
Can kill your own creature when you know your enemy is going to board-clear you to draw and card and get rid of what is usually a bad card in such matchups.


So, Archer seems to have a bit of a edge, but..
If you ignore these edge cases, and go for the primary use of the card (finish 1 hp enemies) which you do 90% of the time.. Coil wins hands down IMO.
I mean, Archer seems to be like a Coil that always draws WISP. And I don't want to draw wisp almost ever. You want to draw your strong cards.
Your comparison with Paladin/Lock powers is wrong -this doesn't cost you life, and Lock power IS WAY better in your deck, as your deck is made to abuse that power and to be able to put 2 strong cheap bodies each and every turn. Coil allows that. 1/1 is not a strong body.
And this is way more important that the little bit of versatility that Archer gives, I think.

As I said, this is without playing the card. I might try to to play it and prove myself wrong, but not sure. (I also didn't like Mukla in Zoo, FWIW).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on July 18, 2014, 08:15:05 pm
Does anyone feel like you find harder opponents in Casual mode than in Ranked Mode? Ranked mode has a steadily increasing strength of players as you go up the ladder, but at Level 15 or so on ladder I find all sorts of crazy legendary decks in Casual, or at least decks that are no less standard-good than what you find on ladder.

Also, I finally got around to building a basic Mage deck to complete my quests. It ended up looking like this:
(http://i61.tinypic.com/wko945.png)

I'm quite surprised at how well it's done so far. I won 5 games in a row with it, bringing me from rank 14 to rank 11. 2-3 of those games were against Handlock. I'm guessing burn Mage plays favourably against Handlock?

I have no Idea why I didn't throw in an Azure Drake in there, but I'll add one somehow next time I play this deck. One thing I noticed is how good it feels to NOT go nuts powering the wyrm. There really is no need going Wyrm->Coin->Image on turn 1. If you need the extra attack, you can do Coin-Image next turn, but more likely the wyrm dies to frostbolt or wrath or something.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 19, 2014, 03:27:23 am
I'd say that Burn Mage has favorable matchup against Handlock. Handlock's main thing is that he can get low HP and than put giants and taunt up, winning soonafter; Freeze Mage punishes that cuz his spells can finish up even through taunts.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on July 19, 2014, 09:24:58 am
I didn't try it, so I'm just speculating, but Archer seems worse to me than Coil.

Ok, I mean, if you go with things that "one can do and other cant":

Archer:
Can pop shield and leave 1/1 body. (best vs Sunwalker)
Can activate Amani and leave 1/1 body. (though I only play 1 Amani)
Can shoot face.
Sometimes you have Coil and Doomguard/0 mana burn in hand and you don't really want to draw as you are going to discard that card anyway.

Coil:
Efficiently makes your deck 2 cards thinner (Flare effect) and can more  dig for that one card that you need (Doomguard/burn/Wolf/Sargent usualy). With hero power, you can dig for 3.
Can kill your own creature when you know your enemy is going to board-clear you to draw and card and get rid of what is usually a bad card in such matchups.


So, Archer seems to have a bit of a edge, but..
If you ignore these edge cases, and go for the primary use of the card (finish 1 hp enemies) which you do 90% of the time.. Coil wins hands down IMO.
I mean, Archer seems to be like a Coil that always draws WISP. And I don't want to draw wisp almost ever. You want to draw your strong cards.
Your comparison with Paladin/Lock powers is wrong -this doesn't cost you life, and Lock power IS WAY better in your deck, as your deck is made to abuse that power and to be able to put 2 strong cheap bodies each and every turn. Coil allows that. 1/1 is not a strong body.
And this is way more important that the little bit of versatility that Archer gives, I think.

As I said, this is without playing the card. I might try to to play it and prove myself wrong, but not sure. (I also didn't like Mukla in Zoo, FWIW).

An activated Mortal Coil is better than Elvish Archer, but obviously an unactivated one is worse. Elvish Archer gets stuck in your hand less often.

Not to say it's always better. It depends on the deck and matchup. Honestly I would probably play one of each so that if you draw both you have more flexibility.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on July 19, 2014, 10:20:08 am
I'd say that Burn Mage has favorable matchup against Handlock. Handlock's main thing is that he can get low HP and than put giants and taunt up, winning soonafter; Freeze Mage punishes that cuz his spells can finish up even through taunts.
I was noticing that my wins vs. Handlock happened really quickly, like turn 6 or 7 (before even the possibility of Jaraxxus). My deck has more early game aggression (patially because I don't have many good late-game minions in my collection). The Warlock's own hero ability helps in getting the Warlock down to the dangerous HP<15 state. At that point, I can use Polymorph to get through 1 round of taunts and then next turn I can Freball/Frostbolt/HeroPower for the finish. The Faceless also finds lots of good targets against Handlock.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on July 19, 2014, 11:17:06 am
I mean, Archer seems to be like a Coil that always draws WISP. And I don't want to draw wisp almost ever. You want to draw your strong cards.
Very nice analysis. OK, this definitely convinces me that activated coil is better than archer.

About Mukla, even though I kinda like him in zoo, he's pretty marginal. There are a significant number of situations where I don't want to play him. The reason I keep him in is: he's great when played on curve except in the mirror, and he's great to drop when your opponent just wiped everything off the board, because he immediately re-establishes a hard-to-remove board presence.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 19, 2014, 01:23:39 pm
I agree with mostly everyhing about Mukla (on curve he is a monster, esp as you use other minions to trade with anything he puts, even buffed), but later in game there are too many situations when I find myself unwilling to play him, so I dropped him.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on July 19, 2014, 07:38:12 pm
Faced my very first Golden Hero today.  Golden Mage...rank 16?  How do you win 500 ranked and sit at 16?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on July 19, 2014, 08:40:47 pm
Does anyone feel like you find harder opponents in Casual mode than in Ranked Mode? Ranked mode has a steadily increasing strength of players as you go up the ladder, but at Level 15 or so on ladder I find all sorts of crazy legendary decks in Casual, or at least decks that are no less standard-good than what you find on ladder.
Casual is much more unpredictable because high ranked players don't want to lose their stars playing crazy decks in ranked, but will play them in casual instead. ranked is a bunch of similar decks mostly.

Faced my very first Golden Hero today.  Golden Mage...rank 16?  How do you win 500 ranked and sit at 16?

Ranks reset every month. He probably played a lot in previous months but not that much yet this month.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on July 19, 2014, 09:46:51 pm
Quote from: HiveMindEmulator

Faced my very first Golden Hero today.  Golden Mage...rank 16?  How do you win 500 ranked and sit at 16?

Ranks reset every month. He probably played a lot in previous months but not that much yet this month.

I thought that at first, but the month is 2/3 gone.  Maybe he was VLA.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on July 20, 2014, 06:27:53 am
Does anyone feel like you find harder opponents in Casual mode than in Ranked Mode? Ranked mode has a steadily increasing strength of players as you go up the ladder, but at Level 15 or so on ladder I find all sorts of crazy legendary decks in Casual, or at least decks that are no less standard-good than what you find on ladder.
Casual is much more unpredictable because high ranked players don't want to lose their stars playing crazy decks in ranked, but will play them in casual instead. ranked is a bunch of similar decks mostly.

True this.
I use casual to test out new decks/play out decks that I like but are not as good/do quests with random decks.
(though now in legend I can do these things in ladder too :P)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on July 20, 2014, 04:03:41 pm
To give some idea what the classes at NA high ranks look like this season, here are the stats from the games I played:
Code: [Select]
=== July 2014 Ranks 1-5 Class Distribution

Class Count Percent
Druid 48 25.5%
Hunter 5 2.7%
Mage 13 6.9%
Paladin 5 2.7%
Priest 1 0.5%
Rogue 53 28.2%
Shaman 12 6.4%
Warlock 38 20.2%
Warrior 13 6.9%

Total 188
(http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11325.0;attach=1855)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on July 25, 2014, 10:10:04 pm
Is Coldlight Oracle for draw a thing?  Just had a Druid not otherwise using murlocs go Coldlight-Panda-Coldlight to draw 4 cards...for me too.

Drew lethal and killed him.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on July 25, 2014, 10:38:10 pm
I think there are some Druid decks which use Coldlight and Naturalize to try to get you to mill (discard) due to handsize. Not particularly common or good, AFAIK.

Edit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqvuZVopxgM
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on July 26, 2014, 02:42:08 am
Coldlight Oracle is a staple of the Backspace Rogue deck, which is ultra-aggressive and low-curve, relying on the Oracle to draw cards when it runs out. Oracle sometimes shows up in Miracle too to help vs Handlock.

The thing about Oracle is that it's only good if your deck spends cards much faster than your opponent's. If your deck and your opponent's deck spend cards at similar speeds, then the draw helps you both about equally, and meanwhile you spent 3 mana on a 2/2, so you're behind. For example, in a Backspace mirror, you really don't want to be the first to play Oracle if you can avoid it.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on July 27, 2014, 09:23:18 am
I feel like defender of argus is a key card I don't have...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: theory on July 27, 2014, 09:45:33 am
Bonus (beyond doing 1 damage)
Mortal Coil: Draw a card.
Elven Archer: Put a 1/1 on the board.
Note: Coil's bonus is basically Warlock's hero power, and Archer's bonus basically Paladin's hero power. Warlock's hero power is better, but since you're playing Warlock, you already have access to it.
Edge: About even.

I feel like this is hugely advantageous in Coil's favor.  For example, Murloc Tidehunter is a 2/1 but if you swapped its power from "Summon a 1/1" to "Battlecry: draw a card" it loses an attack and turns into Novice Engineer.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: theory on July 27, 2014, 09:45:51 am
I feel like defender of argus is a key card I don't have...
If you plan on playing zoo, yeah, you need Defender of Argus.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on July 27, 2014, 10:31:06 am
Bonus (beyond doing 1 damage)
Mortal Coil: Draw a card.
Elven Archer: Put a 1/1 on the board.
Note: Coil's bonus is basically Warlock's hero power, and Archer's bonus basically Paladin's hero power. Warlock's hero power is better, but since you're playing Warlock, you already have access to it.
Edge: About even.

I feel like this is hugely advantageous in Coil's favor.  For example, Murloc Tidehunter is a 2/1 but if you swapped its power from "Summon a 1/1" to "Battlecry: draw a card" it loses an attack and turns into Novice Engineer.
I agree that in general drawing a card is much better than summoning a 1/1, but for Warlock specifically, there's an argument that the edge isn't as much (although I've come around to agreeing that drawing is still a bit better (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11325.msg401975#msg401975)), for two reasons: one is that you can already draw cards using your hero power, so you're not as card-limited as other classes; the other is that you may want to clear cards from your hand to play Doomguard or Soulfire.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on July 27, 2014, 05:11:08 pm
I feel like defender of argus is a key card I don't have...
If you plan on playing zoo, yeah, you need Defender of Argus.

I'm playing a variation of the 16hp lock from liquidhearth.  In mirrors or against Zoo, I lose because of the dang taunts.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on July 27, 2014, 05:11:45 pm
Also opened Doomhammer recently.  My shammy skills are lacking.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on July 27, 2014, 05:39:18 pm
Also opened Doomhammer recently.  My shammy skills are lacking.

Doomhammer's a fun card, especially with Rockbiter, but it's hard to see a Shaman deck working without Lightning Storm.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on July 28, 2014, 01:27:42 am
Also opened Doomhammer recently.  My shammy skills are lacking.

Doomhammer's a fun card, especially with Rockbiter, but it's hard to see a Shaman deck working without Lightning Storm.

I used Doomhammer for a while in my shaman deck, but I found it underwhelming. It's good with rockbiter, but otherwise you can't really hit minions because Shaman has no healing, and 4 face damage a turn isn't the best for a 5 drop with overload. I have Al'Akir which fills that spot well, and does many more things for his cost, and I've been doing a lot better with him then with Doomhammer.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on August 04, 2014, 09:06:14 am
Well that was odd.

I just took out an Ice Queen mage--golden Alex, multiple golden cards and it looked like the standard build that Trump has used--with an aggro mage.

Is that just a bad matchup for freeze mage, or did I get insanely lucky?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on August 04, 2014, 09:20:06 am
Aggro Mage is a classical counter to freeze mage
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on August 04, 2014, 11:20:55 am
I just had an 11 game win streak that brought me up to rank 11. I feel legend rank is coming this month.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on August 04, 2014, 12:59:22 pm
Backlight Rogue. Going vs Warlock.

T1 He passes. I play Leper Gnome
T2. He Life Taps. I assume Handlock, so I play Sinister Strike + Cold Blood. Unless he has Mortal Coil, he cannot remove it till turn 4, and even if he has, 4 damage is not that bad for 1 mana. I attack for 6.
T3. He plays Knife Juggler (obv not Handlock) + Void Walker. Misses my Leper. I Sap the Juggler and Eviscerate the Walker, going for 6 more (Walker is a bigger problem, I have to sack Leper if he replays it).
T4. He replays Knife Juggler, along with 2 Abusive Sargeants - both miss my Gnome. I feel sorry as he concedes after I dagger up, hit the Juggler and Bladeflurry.  :P
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on August 04, 2014, 01:00:01 pm
Also I love this new tech of Lock playing Void Terrors, it's so satisfying to Sap those guys.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on August 04, 2014, 01:33:50 pm
Also I love this new tech of Lock playing Void Terrors, it's so satisfying to Sap those guys.

It's annoying, but I'm ok with keeping my nerubian.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Twistedarcher on August 05, 2014, 10:38:11 pm
I've now played 9 zoo decks in a row on ladder.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: nkirbit on August 06, 2014, 04:39:12 pm
So the card I was most excited about from Naxx finally came out... Reincarnate!  Here's the list I'm starting with, it's doing okay so far, although it certainly needs some more tweaks (I'm thinking about throwing Ragnaros in.  I also don't own Al'akir, although he'd probably have a place here.)  :

2x Earth Shock
2x Lightning Bolt
2x Rockbiter Weapon
2x Reincarnate
1x Bloodmage Thalnos
2x Flametongue Totem
2x Nerubian Egg
2x Feral Spirit
2x Hex
2x Lightning Storm
2x Unbound Elemental
1x Leeroy Jenkins
1x Senjin Shieldmasta
1x Doomhammer
2x Azure Drake
1x Cairne Bloodhoof
2x Fire Elemental
1x Sylvanas Windrunner
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on August 06, 2014, 06:07:28 pm
I've now played 9 zoo decks in a row on ladder.

I feel for you. Samesies here.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on August 06, 2014, 06:09:01 pm
Got ~3200 dust. (Can get aditional 1200 by disenchanting Nozdromu, Beast and Millhouse, but I dont wanna  :-[)

What to get?
I lean towards Cairne and Ragnaros.

Here is what I am missing:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wQ-8hbo9DEUUEoASZI-ccuTCTUajWiplrgqCuO1Dy2A/edit#gid=0
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on August 06, 2014, 06:09:59 pm
Got ~3200 dust. (Can get aditional 1200 by disenchanting Nozdromu, Beast and Millhouse, but I dont wanna  :-[)

What to get?
I lean towards Cairne and Ragnaros.

Here is what I am missing:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wQ-8hbo9DEUUEoASZI-ccuTCTUajWiplrgqCuO1Dy2A/edit#gid=0

Do you have Angry Chicken?  If not, you should craft 32 Angry Chickens.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: theory on August 06, 2014, 06:13:19 pm
Got ~3200 dust. (Can get aditional 1200 by disenchanting Nozdromu, Beast and Millhouse, but I dont wanna  :-[)

What to get?
I lean towards Cairne and Ragnaros.

Here is what I am missing:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wQ-8hbo9DEUUEoASZI-ccuTCTUajWiplrgqCuO1Dy2A/edit#gid=0

Do you have Angry Chicken?  If not, you should craft 32 Angry Chickens.

That sounds like either a movie about a very large, very squawky jury OR a Zoo deck made by someone with a fundamental misunderstanding about what Zoo decks are.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Twistedarcher on August 06, 2014, 06:14:17 pm
Got ~3200 dust. (Can get aditional 1200 by disenchanting Nozdromu, Beast and Millhouse, but I dont wanna  :-[)

What to get?
I lean towards Cairne and Ragnaros.

Here is what I am missing:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wQ-8hbo9DEUUEoASZI-ccuTCTUajWiplrgqCuO1Dy2A/edit#gid=0

Alex + Thalnos, then you can play freeze mage!
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on August 06, 2014, 06:16:06 pm
I only have 1/4 giants, unforunately.
I also really rally want to get Ancient of Lores. And I have such bad luck with epics, I opened only 1 of 4 giants and 0 of 4 Ancients, but I believe 4 or 5 freaking Spellbenders.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Twistedarcher on August 06, 2014, 06:18:18 pm
I only have 1/4 giants, unforunately.
I also really rally want to get Ancient of Lores. And I have such bad luck with epics, I opened only 1 of 4 giants and 0 of 4 Ancients, but I believe 4 or 5 freaking Spellbenders.

Are you supposed to play giants in freeze mage? I don't have them in the deck I built.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on August 06, 2014, 06:23:17 pm
Oh, you are right, rarely they are played. My bad.
I do lack 1 Doomsayer, but that's actually not a bad idea as those legendaries are playable in other decks too. Not as wide as Rag or Cairne, but .. fine.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on August 06, 2014, 06:43:53 pm
I only have 1/4 giants, unforunately.
I also really rally want to get Ancient of Lores. And I have such bad luck with epics, I opened only 1 of 4 giants and 0 of 4 Ancients, but I believe 4 or 5 freaking Spellbenders.

I've opened 3 Ancients of Lore but zero War.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on August 06, 2014, 06:50:34 pm
I only have 1/4 giants, unforunately.
I also really rally want to get Ancient of Lores. And I have such bad luck with epics, I opened only 1 of 4 giants and 0 of 4 Ancients, but I believe 4 or 5 freaking Spellbenders.

I've opened 3 Ancients of Lore but zero War.

I mean, that's good - you can substitute Ironbark Protector for War if you need a fat taunt.

My epic luck is weird, but I've mostly gotten good ones - 2 Blood Knights, 1 Shadowform, Sea Giant. I'm still missing Wild Pyromancer though...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on August 06, 2014, 10:21:44 pm
I only have 1/4 giants, unforunately.
I also really rally want to get Ancient of Lores. And I have such bad luck with epics, I opened only 1 of 4 giants and 0 of 4 Ancients, but I believe 4 or 5 freaking Spellbenders.

I've opened 3 Ancients of Lore but zero War.

Lore >> War. Basically every Druid deck uses 2x Lore. War is only if you're playing a high curve ramp deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on August 06, 2014, 10:26:56 pm
Bonus (beyond doing 1 damage)
Mortal Coil: Draw a card.
Elven Archer: Put a 1/1 on the board.
Note: Coil's bonus is basically Warlock's hero power, and Archer's bonus basically Paladin's hero power. Warlock's hero power is better, but since you're playing Warlock, you already have access to it.
Edge: About even.

I feel like this is hugely advantageous in Coil's favor.  For example, Murloc Tidehunter is a 2/1 but if you swapped its power from "Summon a 1/1" to "Battlecry: draw a card" it loses an attack and turns into Novice Engineer.
I agree that in general drawing a card is much better than summoning a 1/1, but for Warlock specifically, there's an argument that the edge isn't as much (although I've come around to agreeing that drawing is still a bit better (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11325.msg401975#msg401975)), for two reasons: one is that you can already draw cards using your hero power, so you're not as card-limited as other classes; the other is that you may want to clear cards from your hand to play Doomguard or Soulfire.

I was thinking about this today on the bus.  It seems to me that Elven Archer is basically

Mage Hero Power + Paladin Hero Power for 1 mana.  Put that way, it seems very strong.

I know the argument between EA and MC is draw a card vs. token, but there are other ways to frame it, I think.

If you view MC is a minion-only limited mage power + Warlock Hero Power, it looks arguable either way.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on August 06, 2014, 10:30:23 pm
^Well Coil is more like Mage Power + Warlock Power + Warrior Power...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on August 06, 2014, 10:36:06 pm
^Well Coil is more like Mage Power + Warlock Power + Warrior Power...

How is Coil like +2 armor?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on August 06, 2014, 10:38:24 pm
Warlock Power + Warrior Power = net no health change and draw a card.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on August 07, 2014, 12:03:39 pm
I just played a game against a control Warlock deck and it was really strange. I thought he had a Zoo deck with a bad mulligan when he opened with a solo Void Walker with no followup, but then he transitioned into neutral control cards. (Yeti, SSC, Senjin Shieldmaster, Gnomish Inventors)

The game itself ended up going really long with our minions just smashing into each other trying to eke out a small advantage. We were both drawing plenty of cards, him through his ability and me through a protected Mana Tide Totem and a Gadgetzan. We just kept trading cards without ever getting an advantage (at one point in the early game I would have probably lost if I hadn't summoned a lucky +1 Spellpower Totem before a Lightning Storm) until he made a mistake and left a Flame Elemental that he could have killed on the board. I followed it up with another creature and a Defender of Argus. He wiped the board with two Hellfires (who plays two Hellfires!?), but it also wiped his board presence and I was able to quickly take board control then.

Has anyone ever seen a Warlock deck like this? It gave my Shaman tempo/control deck a run for its money, but that was at least partially card draw luck.

Edit: I should add, I constantly had no idea what he was going to play next which made the game require significantly more grey matter than usual.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on August 07, 2014, 12:23:57 pm
I just played a game against a control Warlock deck and it was really strange. I thought he had a Zoo deck with a bad mulligan when he opened with a solo Void Walker with no followup, but then he transitioned into neutral control cards. (Yeti, SSC, Senjin Shieldmaster, Gnomish Inventors)

The game itself ended up going really long with our minions just smashing into each other trying to eke out a small advantage. We were both drawing plenty of cards, him through his ability and me through a protected Mana Tide Totem and a Gadgetzan. We just kept trading cards without ever getting an advantage (at one point in the early game I would have probably lost if I hadn't summoned a lucky +1 Spellpower Totem before a Lightning Storm) until he made a mistake and left a Flame Elemental that he could have killed on the board. I followed it up with another creature and a Defender of Argus. He wiped the board with two Hellfires (who plays two Hellfires!?), but it also wiped his board presence and I was able to quickly take board control then.

Has anyone ever seen a Warlock deck like this? It gave my Shaman tempo/control deck a run for its money, but that was at least partially card draw luck.

Edit: I should add, I constantly had no idea what he was going to play next which made the game require significantly more grey matter than usual.

I've lost to decks that to completely defy all normal standards. There was a warrior deck that played Goldshire Footman, along with all kinds of weird low cards that no one uses, then two Brawls (what?) and some big minions, I think a Ragnaros. My Shaman deck, that has taken me to rank 8 one season, just couldn't handle it. I couldn't take into account a second brawl because I've never seen someone run two, especially when they start spamming crappy small minions at the beginning.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on August 07, 2014, 12:28:59 pm
I just played a game against a control Warlock deck and it was really strange. I thought he had a Zoo deck with a bad mulligan when he opened with a solo Void Walker with no followup, but then he transitioned into neutral control cards. (Yeti, SSC, Senjin Shieldmaster, Gnomish Inventors)
Maybe he was playing the best Warlock deck he could make with all free cards.

Quote
(who plays two Hellfires!?)
A lot of people...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on August 12, 2014, 05:41:55 pm
Got ~3200 dust. (Can get aditional 1200 by disenchanting Nozdromu, Beast and Millhouse, but I dont wanna  :-[)

What to get?
I lean towards Cairne and Ragnaros.

Here is what I am missing:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wQ-8hbo9DEUUEoASZI-ccuTCTUajWiplrgqCuO1Dy2A/edit#gid=0

I think I'll just wait until Naxx ends, for meta to stabilize and than see what I like the most. Seems most reasonable.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on August 16, 2014, 01:22:35 am
His board: Northshire Cleric, Nerubian Egg, Defender of Argus (2/2)
My board: Sylvanas (4 health and Ancestral Spirit)

His previous turn: Heal my Sylvanas from 2 to 4 to prevent me from suiciding it into his Argus.
My turn: Play Leeroy and Baron Rivendare. Kill the Egg with Leeroy so he summons a 4/4 Nerubian, suicide my Sylvanas into the Nerubian to steal his Cleric and Defender and summon two Sylvanases. Add insult to injury by getting a Healing Totem and drawing a card via his Cleric.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on August 20, 2014, 06:02:12 pm
I recently switched from midrange Hunter to something akin to Amaz's Control Paladin list:
http://i.imgur.com/yr3cY3Q.png

I don't have Harrison nor any Naxx cards so I replaced them with other stuff.
I also consider putting in second Acolyte of Pain as he proves himself to be fine, and crafting Ragnaros just so that can get games ended faster, as it can sometimes be such a bore to finish your opponent once you get in control.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on August 25, 2014, 11:17:17 am
Soooo this just happened:
http://i.imgur.com/Onl4Aw5.jpg?1?6454

The -6 is Baine #1 exploding to a Fireball. 5 Cairne's played in 1 game. "The eye's of the Earth Mother are upon us... all of us."

(No Bloodhoof's survived this bloody brawl, the last was turned into a sheep.)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on August 25, 2014, 12:32:52 pm
Reincarnate+Kelthuzad. Why didn't I think of that...

(http://i.imgur.com/A7EaMeu.jpg)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on August 25, 2014, 12:33:06 pm
How do I make it smaller?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on August 25, 2014, 12:35:17 pm
How do I make it smaller?
(http://i.imgur.com/A7EaMeu.jpg)

Like this.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on August 25, 2014, 12:37:38 pm
yay. Now I know
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on August 28, 2014, 12:06:53 pm
I did it!!!! Legend! Gaaah! So excited. All look at my amazing card back.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on August 30, 2014, 01:36:00 pm
My aggro Paladin deck looks like this now, but I'm not sure about the 30th card. It's the second Bluegill Warrior right now, but I'm also considering a second Loot Hoarder or a Kobold Geomancer. What I'd really want in that slot is another Ironbeak Owl, but I don't have two, and crafting a common just feels wrong.

What should I do?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on August 30, 2014, 05:08:55 pm
Only 1 Divine Favor? I cannot justitify that!
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on August 30, 2014, 05:20:32 pm
I think Paladin aggro doesn't want to run Hammer of Wrath - it's not great tempo wise, and I'd think you wouldn't be able to use the extra card from it well enough, and it's not the best finisher.

You also really want the 2nd Divine Favor. If you have Coldlight, you may want to consider that over Hammer, but I could be wrong about the usefulness of 3 damage that goes over taunts.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on August 30, 2014, 06:54:50 pm
I think Paladin aggro doesn't want to run Hammer of Wrath - it's not great tempo wise, and I'd think you wouldn't be able to use the extra card from it well enough, and it's not the best finisher.

Why won't you be able to use the extra card well enough? The point of the deck is that most of the cards are low mana cost... Yes +card is not a great effect when you have Divine Favor, but you don't always have it. That's why stuff like Hammer and Coldlight are important -- you need to thin the deck enough that you can draw your important cards, like your Divine Favor and your finisher(s).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on August 30, 2014, 07:09:05 pm
I also don't have a second Divine Favor.

Hammer is so versatile I'm rarely displeased when I topdeck one, and sometimes it's exactly what I need. I don't know though, it's certainly possible that it's less useful in the meta of the higher ranks, but here at rank 11 it has been great so far.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 01, 2014, 05:19:38 pm
Now that I have Capt. Greenskin, parrots, etc., I'm testing the weapons-based warrior pirate deck, which is fun and sometimes strong.  Does anyone see a deck like this, or other "themed"decks (murloc, dragon, charge, etc.) having success in ranked play?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on September 02, 2014, 02:14:27 am
Well, a variety of Deathrattle-themed decks are pretty popular in Ranked, with a Zoo variant and midrange/control Shaman being the most popular. I hear Beast-based Hunter decks are pretty good too.

I suppose you knew about those already, though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on September 02, 2014, 02:26:55 am
I've seen some Murloc aggro decks, mostly Warlock, although the fact that I've seen them doesn't necessarily mean that they are good.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 02, 2014, 03:14:18 am
Yeah, I feel like "beast hunter" is a bit bigger than a theme, and I've see the murlocs on occasion.  Clearly there are flavor purposes to some of these cards, and some of them have built in synergy, but I'm not sure how great they are.

My take on the Warrior Pirate is currently:

1 Drops:
Upgrade! x2
Southsea Deckhand x2 (charge if weapon equipped)

2 Drops:
Fiery War Axe x2
Bloodsail Raider x2 (gain attack equal to weapon's attack)
Captain's Parrot x2

3 Drops:
Shield Block x2 (for draw)
Deathlord x2
King Mukla
Shade of Naxx
Southsea Captain x2 (+1/+1 to all Pirates)

4 Drops:
Death's Bite x2
Arathi Weaponsmith
Dread Corsair x2 (minus mana cost for weapon attack)
Kor'kron Elite x2

5 Drops:
Arcanite Reaper
Brawl
Captain Greenskin (+1/+1 to weapon)

6+ Drops:
Gorehowl
Alexstrasza


It's...okay...I feel like Mukla's a distraction, Shade of Naxx is lamish, and I'm not sold on my 5 drop choices.  I just find it hard to get finish opponents (and I don't own Leeroy).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on September 02, 2014, 03:44:32 am
For deathrattle-themed decks, there's a deck called Undertaker Priest that has been going around. See Kibler's decklists at http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/hearthstone/465636-impact-defeats-kibler-in-sunshine-open for a sample version.

One nice thing about it is that many of the cards are either common or come from Naxxramus, so if you've finished Naxxramus you don't actually need much dust. Unfortunately, the 6-cost and above cards start getting a little pricy, and I don't think there's great replacements for Cairne or Sylvanas.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on September 02, 2014, 08:46:37 am
Pirate decks are pretty gimmicky. Cap. Greenskin has terrible stats, and you can't play him usually till much too late in the game. Raider is good, but most of the other pirates  are justn ot good enough.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on September 02, 2014, 10:47:37 am
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like 6 weapons plus a Weaponsmith is going a tad overboard.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on September 02, 2014, 06:26:55 pm
A Pirate Warrior is probably just a weaker version of face Warrior. It's not good for control because none of the Pirates really generate card advantage, and you're forcing yourself to play a lot of low mana minions. The strategy would be to use the weapons to kill off their stuff while you populate with Pirates to hit them in the face with. You have plenty of weapon charges, so in most cases you don't hold back on using them for face damage. The epic Pirate is pretty terrible (you're not likely to have multiple Pirates out when you play him, and even if you do, it's just +1 damage before they kill your Captain, but I guess you have to have it for theme. You probably don't want Gorehowl or Alex or Brawl, as those are control cards. You might want an Execute or 2 to deal with a big taunt or something (though maybe Owl is better since it also handles deathrattle things), and you probably want Heroic Strike and Mortal Strike for more damage. Argent Commander is nice if you have space. I'm also not sold on Deathlord, since you don't have that many low cost minions to protect. If you had more 1-drops, it would make sense, but it's not doing much currently.

I'd say from your current deck, remove:
Shade, Brawl, Gorehowl, Alex, 2x Deathlord and one Death's Bite
add:
2x Heroic, 1x Mortal, 2x Commander, 1x Owl, and a 2nd Reaper and start working from there.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on September 02, 2014, 06:42:56 pm
I've actually made 9 decks, one for each class (also I got first Wing Nax):
Paladin Control (Might switch to some weenie strat)
Hunter Midrange
Backlight Rogue
Egg/Void Zoo
Burn Mage
Shaman Control
Face Warrior
Control Priest
Whatever-I-have-brew Token/Midrange Druid

So I picked one at random, and play that one until I lose, and than I switch to the class that I lost to. Just for funsies and seeing which gets most play that way. Also if I lose to mirror I re-random.  ;D
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: theory on September 02, 2014, 07:02:02 pm
Here's the Warrior deck I'm running now.  I haven't found a similar analog online though I'm sure someone has come up with the same basic concept previously.

(http://i.imgur.com/cV7uDg3.png)

Cards that I've found vital to this deck:

* Dread Corsair
* The Black Knight

Cards I'm considering replacing:

* Commanding Shout
* Arathi Weaponsmith

I think Grommash would be a solid addition but I don't own him.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 02, 2014, 07:05:04 pm
My first warrior deck was based around the damage your own minions for enrage and other benefits concept.  Feels strong.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on September 02, 2014, 07:31:30 pm
Commanding shout is just not that playable. You leave your minims wry vulnerable, and you already need a bunch front to be worth it, AND they need to be attacking things that would otherwise kill them. I suspect you mostly want to show off the golden card :P
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on September 02, 2014, 09:02:31 pm
I personally like Weaponsmith, but it's not the most incredible card.

I'd say...

- Cut out Commanding Shout, it's nice when it works and not that useful when it doesn't.
- Cut Unstable Ghouls, since I think it's more of a delaying card. My feeling is that they can be good, but Enrage Warrior is a more aggressive deck and Unstable Ghouls tend to be used to buy early time.
- Add second Whirlwind - 2x Whirlwind + Death's Bite seems like enough enablers.
- If you wanted a more combo-y deck, add second Warsong and Inner Rages - you can get the charge before using Inner Rage to deal lots of damage from the hand. Warsong is really nice since it gives charge to practically everything in your deck - the only downside is that you almost always have to hold it in hand because it's a top priority removal target, so it's not really a turn 3 play and it drives your curve up a bit. I still think it's worth it though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on September 02, 2014, 09:31:32 pm
Weaponsmith is really a value card. It's a 3/3 drop for 4 mana that deals 4dmg over 2 turns. It's a lot in one card, but it's not fast. I think it's much better in arena.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: theory on September 03, 2014, 09:04:09 am
ADWCTA also suggested cutting Unstable Ghoul, but maybe I am just too enamored with the Unstable Ghoul -> Raging Worgen play.  It serves a double role of protector + trigger for my important minions, so I am loath to remove it.

I don't particularly like Arathi Weaponsmith because I rarely have that much trouble removing small minions.  I often just wish I had a Death's Bite / Arcanite Reaper instead.  Of course, those don't give me 3/3 bodies or aren't playable on 4 mana, but it does feel like an Arena hero instead of what this deck needs.

Inner Rage / more Warsong is a good idea.  My deck right now doesn't have a ton of "combo-from-hand" potential (it's mostly about keeping a Raging Worgen / Frothing Berserker alive for a turn) but perhaps another Warsong will open up more opportunities.

Also, guys, I'm serious about the Dread Corsair thing.  It really is the most crucial non-win condition card in my deck (maybe second after TBK) -- squeezing out a free 3/3 taunt is pretty gamechanging.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on September 03, 2014, 09:07:42 am
No 2/3 Pirates that get bigger with weapons?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 03, 2014, 01:05:29 pm
I'd definitely cut the Weaponsmith in this deck. There's problems with the card in a deck that has 5 better weapons in it. I run a similar Warrior deck and cut the Weaponsmith from it because there were numerous times that I would be unable to play the Weaponsmith because I either already had a better weapon equipped or wanted to equip a better weapon that turn and didn't want to waste the 2/2.

I would also cut the Ghouls, they synergize with your minions to enrage them, but they're not aggressive enough.

Cards I would consider adding:
Kor'Kron Elite: It's just a really good card even if it doesn't synergize.
Bloodsail Raider: Weapons make this card worth playing.
Grommosh: It sucks you don't have it, but it really would work very well here as a finisher.
Mortal Strike: One of the few Warrior cards with the ability to ignore Taunts.
Another Whirlwind: A good cheap card in this style of deck.
Earthenring Farseer: Yeah, there will be situations where you don't want to turn off a creatures enrage, but considering the amounts of ways to enrage cards you should get value out of the healing whether by keeping a creature alive to do more damage (Frothing, Gurubashi), healing a creature that's about to be reenraged anyways (through Whirlwind, Frost's Bite, etc) or just healing yourself (you do tend to take damage with all the weapons smashing into creatures). Plus it synergizes with Warsong.
Slam: If you have trouble with card draw this is a good value card for cycling.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 03, 2014, 01:09:39 pm
Also another Warsong would be good too.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 08, 2014, 07:02:14 am
I'm running a fun Secret Mage deck now -- I think Jorbles has one?  Anyway, I'm wondering on some card choices...

1 Mana:

Mirror Image x2
Mana Wyrm x2
Secretkeeper x2

2 Mana:

Frostbolt x2
Mad Scientist x2

3 Mana:

Arcane Intellect x2
Duplicate x2
Ice Barrier
Mirror Entity x2
Spellbender
Kirin Tor Mage x2

4 Mana:

Polymorph x2
Ethereal Arcanist x2

5 Mana:

Feugen
Stalagg

6+ Mana:

Blizzard
Flamestrike x2
Alexstrasza



I'm wondering if I need a second Blizzard (in place of a Flamestrike?  Instead of something else?) and if there are better options for 5 Mana instead of Feugen/Stalagg (I have a Faceless...Sea Giant?).

I'd like one Ice Block, but don't have it.  I have no Vaporize, either.  I have one Counterspell, but don't find it useful.

It's basically a control style deck, just biding my time while I whittle away at minions and keep getting free stuff from secret shenanigans.  But if I don't get a super big Ethereal Arcanist or Mana Wyrm, I'm a bit weak on the killing (no Pyro, no Fireballs, nothing).

Like, if I had a Leeroy or a Cairne or a Sylvanus, sure.  Or a Rag.  But I don't...I have 1 Sea Giant, 1 Molten Giant, all the Naxx legendaries, 2x Argent Commander, the aforementioned Faceless, 2x Abomination...

Any suggestions?  I have enough dust to craft an epic or 6 or so rares at this point.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 08, 2014, 02:06:00 pm
I've been waiting for someone to talk about this with! This is what I run:
1s:
2 x Arcane Missiles
2 x Mana Wyrms

2s:
2 x Frostbolt
2 x Mad Scientist
2 x Ooze (I would swap these for Amanis if the meta didn't seem to be loaded with Warriors and Hunters with Eaglesongs right now)

3s:
1 x Arcane Intellect
1 x Acolyte (I've been thinking of replacing this with a second Arcane Intellect, but I like the versatility)
2 x Kirin Tor
1 x Counterspell
1 x Vapourize (I've had good results from this as a delayed removal spell, but it relies on you playing from ahead and leaving something behind that you think they'll attack face with. A lot of mind games involved. I'll probably replace this with Counterspell when I have dust to craft a second one.)
1 x Mirror Entity (edit: I only have 1.)
2 x Duplicate

4s:
2 x Water Elemental
1 x Ethereal Arcanist
2 x Fireball
2 x Polymorph

5+s:
2 x Azure Drakes
1 x Loatheb (edit: forgot I'd traded Loatheb in.)
1 x Flamestrike

It's fun I don't know how legit it will be at higher ranks, but it's climbing steadily since the last ladder reset.

I used to run Spellbender in this deck, but it really just seems like a terrible secret since it only activates when someone casts a spell targeting a creature. You'd be better off with a Counterspell. Counterspell can counter any spell, not just ones that target individual minions. Spellbender actually plays terribly if you have a Duplicate out (you don't want two Spellbenders you want two Kirin Tors or two Water Elementals or two Azure Drakes).

I used to run Cairne in this deck, but found he was usually too slow. This deck builds all it's momentum in the midgame with 3 and 4 drops. I was usually wanting to play multiple midrange threats instead of a big Cairne who is really just a midrange threat and another delayed midrange threat. I also tried running Veonidas as a finisher, but found he was too slow as well.

I don't own any Secret Keepers, but I don't think I'd run them if I did. If you play a Secretkeeper turn 1 you're not going to see a secret to buff it until turn 3 unless you coin or mad scientist one out. It doesn't seem strong enough to me, but let me know how they go.

I used to run two Arcanists, but found if I drew both of them one of them would have trouble matching up with secrets at some point.

I try to play the deck by never casting a secret for full price. Always try to bring them out with Mad Scientists or KT Mages. I use momentum gained from free secrets to take control of the mid game, gain a card advantage and try to win around the time I've drawn about 20 cards from the deck. Duplicate is a really key card for building hand advantage. I want to duplicate cards that I can cast both of immediately after the thing is killed. Any of the 3, 4 or 5 drops are good for this, Mad Scientist is okay if it's still early in the game. Ooze is okay to Duplicate if it's against a Warrior. Otherwise I try to trade off weak minions on my turn to force the Duplicate of a 3+ drop on theirs. This deck can win in the late game, but legendary heavy decks often outlast it if the game goes that long.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on September 08, 2014, 02:53:31 pm
Yeah I agree that Counterspell is just better than Spellbender. There are a bunch of cards that are draw+other effect, like Slam, Hammer of Wrath, and Wrath. Spellbender still lets them draw.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 08, 2014, 09:48:58 pm
I've been waiting for someone to talk about this with!

I used to run Spellbender in this deck, but it really just seems like a terrible secret since it only activates when someone casts a spell targeting a creature. You'd be better off with a Counterspell. Counterspell can counter any spell, not just ones that target individual minions. Spellbender actually plays terribly if you have a Duplicate out (you don't want two Spellbenders you want two Kirin Tors or two Water Elementals or two Azure Drakes).

I used to run Cairne in this deck, but found he was usually too slow. This deck builds all it's momentum in the midgame with 3 and 4 drops. I was usually wanting to play multiple midrange threats instead of a big Cairne who is really just a midrange threat and another delayed midrange threat. I also tried running Veonidas as a finisher, but found he was too slow as well.

I don't own any Secret Keepers, but I don't think I'd run them if I did. If you play a Secretkeeper turn 1 you're not going to see a secret to buff it until turn 3 unless you coin or mad scientist one out. It doesn't seem strong enough to me, but let me know how they go.

I used to run two Arcanists, but found if I drew both of them one of them would have trouble matching up with secrets at some point.

I try to play the deck by never casting a secret for full price. Always try to bring them out with Mad Scientists or KT Mages. I use momentum gained from free secrets to take control of the mid game, gain a card advantage and try to win around the time I've drawn about 20 cards from the deck. Duplicate is a really key card for building hand advantage. I want to duplicate cards that I can cast both of immediately after the thing is killed. Any of the 3, 4 or 5 drops are good for this, Mad Scientist is okay if it's still early in the game. Ooze is okay to Duplicate if it's against a Warrior. Otherwise I try to trade off weak minions on my turn to force the Duplicate of a 3+ drop on theirs. This deck can win in the late game, but legendary heavy decks often outlast it if the game goes that long.

I've found that the Secret Keepers have been a net positive since I've started playing this deck -- I usually don't drop them T1 (that's the normal Mirror Image/Mana Wrym/Coin combos), but will if I need to have presence on T1/T2.  Generally they're a 2/3, which trades well enough, and often they'll draw the Wrath/Frostbolt/etc. out early, which I think is a good use of a 1 Drop.

I'm 50/50 on Spellbender, but when it works, it is spectacular.  I mean, it's nice when it steals a buff like MotW or something, but it seems like eating the assassinate is it's main role.  I get that Counterspell does the same thing, but I don't think you're meant to think of them as the same.  Spellbender is a minion protector, like a spell taunt.  It's the spell version of the Paladin one, but better.

I love Arcanists, and I think I'd give 2 another shot.  If I had Ice Block, it'd be even better, since that secret sticks until the very end.  They are often my big mid-range threats even though they aren't that big.

I play the deck basically with the intent of irritating the opponent into submission (not really).  Unlike common sense would dictate, I actually like Duplicating my Mirror Images -- general, barring Consecrate/Holy Nova/etc., dropping free taunts all day really slows down the opponent.  I haven't thought about using a Knife Juggler in this, but maybe with all the extra small minions from Duplicate, it's worth it?  I'm generally trying to keep board control until I can get the big guns out, and Alex is always a useful game changer late.

My big issue is I don't really have big guns that are great -- I rarely get Thaddius to work out, and I just don't have much else.  I could sub in a Faceless and an Azure Drake, maybe.

Jorbles -- how are you killing folks?  Elementals?  Spells?  Drakes are 4/4 and Loatheb is one 5/5.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on September 09, 2014, 12:14:21 am
The win condition in my Secret Mage deck is mainly getting huge Arcanists, with Duplicate giving me a few extra chances. I also have a Pyroblast in there. The only problem is that I don't own any Ice Blocks, though, which makes the deck much worse.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 09, 2014, 12:36:15 am
The win condition in my Secret Mage deck is mainly getting huge Arcanists, with Duplicate giving me a few extra chances. I also have a Pyroblast in there. The only problem is that I don't own any Ice Blocks, though, which makes the deck much worse.

I'm really tempted to spend the 400 dust to craft an Ice Block for that reason.  I'd only want the one anyway.

Would giants make any sense?  I often get up to 5 minions on the board just from the multiple Mirror Images, Secret Keepers, etc.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 09, 2014, 12:58:44 am
Jorbles -- how are you killing folks?  Elementals?  Spells?  Drakes are 4/4 and Loatheb is one 5/5.

I would say that occasionally I'll kill them in a lucky initial rush (25% of the time) by bursting them down at the end with a big arcanist and a spell, but most often I win by getting 3-4 mid size minions out and hammering them down once they're top decking. This usually involves some combo of Water Elementals, KT Mages and Drakes.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 09, 2014, 01:00:43 am
Would giants make any sense?  I often get up to 5 minions on the board just from the multiple Mirror Images, Secret Keepers, etc.

I briefly ran a Mountain Giant in the deck because I often had a card advantage in my deck (I bumped it out because it was usually not great to duplicate, the first was often cheap, but the second and third were often not). A Sea Giant might work in yours, or Frostwolf Warlords if you've got lots of little critters?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 09, 2014, 01:22:57 am
Would giants make any sense?  I often get up to 5 minions on the board just from the multiple Mirror Images, Secret Keepers, etc.

I briefly ran a Mountain Giant in the deck because I often had a card advantage in my deck (I bumped it out because it was usually not great to duplicate, the first was often cheap, but the second and third were often not). A Sea Giant might work in yours, or Frostwolf Warlords if you've got lots of little critters?

Generally, a great board for me has 3-4 Mirror Images, a Mana Wyrm, 1/2 Secret Keepers, and a growing Arcanist.  I could try the giant and azure drake instead of feugen/stalagg.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 09, 2014, 01:38:30 am
If I had an Ice Block (I don't) I might consider a second Arcanist, but right now I just can't see what it's good enough to replace. Drakes are too important for card draw and spell power, Water Elementals are too good against Warriors and Hunters, which is like 25-35% of what I'm facing right now, Loatheb's too good against everyone, and everything else that costs 4+ is minion removal which the deck needs. If Warriors and Hunters became less dominant I might put a second one back in instead of a Water Elemental, but right now I'd rather have the ability to freeze my opponent than a big threat. (3+ medium sized threats is harder for people to deal with I find, especially when they're out before flamestrike is castable.)

If you are finding that Feugen and Stalagg aren't doing it for you Azure might be good. It's a really good card in mage, but then I say that as someone who runs Arcane Missiles and Fireballs. Loatheb is an amazing 5 drop, and opponents really hate it when you duplicate him (3 turns of no spells). Loatheb would probably be my top recommendation for a 5 drop in a secret deck. If you end up with 3-4 cheap minions on your board often, a Sea Giant or a Frostwolf Warlord would both be great. (Frostwolf's are maybe not as big as Giants, but they are more reliable to get out earlier so it's a trade off.)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 09, 2014, 01:42:31 am
If I had an Ice Block (I don't) I might consider a second Arcanist, but right now I just can't see what it's good enough to replace. Drakes are too important for card draw and spell power, Water Elementals are too good against Warriors and Hunters, which is like 25-35% of what I'm facing right now, Loatheb's too good against everyone, and everything else that costs 4+ is minion removal which the deck needs. If Warriors and Hunters became less dominant I might put a second one back in instead of a Water Elemental, but right now I'd rather have the ability to freeze my opponent than a big threat. (3+ medium sized threats is harder for people to deal with I find, especially when they're out before flamestrike is castable.)

If you are finding that Feugen and Stalagg aren't doing it for you Azure might be good. It's a really good card in mage, but then I say that as someone who runs Arcane Missiles and Fireballs. Loatheb is an amazing 5 drop, and opponents really hate it when you duplicate him (3 turns of no spells). Loatheb would probably be my top recommendation for a 5 drop in a secret deck. If you end up with 3-4 cheap minions on your board often, a Sea Giant or a Frostwolf Warlord would both be great. (Frostwolf's are maybe not as big as Giants, but they are more reliable to get out earlier so it's a trade off.)

Yeah, no Fireballs in my deck really changes the playstyle.  I have little use for spell power, really.

I can easily swap in an Azure Drake and Loatheb for the twins.

Any thoughts on Blizzard vs. Flamestrike?  I have three slots for them, and right now I have 1 Blizzard and 2 FS.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 09, 2014, 10:44:12 am
Any thoughts on Blizzard vs. Flamestrike?  I have three slots for them, and right now I have 1 Blizzard and 2 FS.

Sorry I don't have much experience with Blizzard, I've never owned it. It seems generally useful for clearing Zoo/Paladin boards and against aggro decks. It's more versatile than flamestrike as it is also capable of allowing you to ignore minions for a turn while you hit the face. I'd probably have to see how it plays honestly. It seems to lack oomph for it's cost, but it might not matter if you can burst someone down while the blizzard freezes everything. I like that it costs 6 so you can play it earlier against aggro decks. Flamestrike is too slow against them.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: theory on September 09, 2014, 10:51:36 am
One Blizzard + two Flamestrike seems overkill...I don't know how your deck plays but I can't imagine that any Mage deck wouldn't want to run Fireball.  It's just such a powerful spell.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on September 09, 2014, 02:50:58 pm
WRT secrets Mages, I quite like Ostkaka's mage list presented by Xixo in his Liquidhearth Open victory article (http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/465817-opening-up-xixo-winning-shaman-v-hunter). It did pretty well for me in the dying days of last season, going 25-11 at ranks 5-2, and certainly would have put me in legend with a few more hours of play. It doesn't commit overly much to secrets, just putting in enough to reliably get value from Mad Scientist's deathrattle (5), then throwing in Kirin Tor Mages so that you can play them from your hand for cheap, which makes sense to me since IMO the biggest weakness of Mad Scientist is that it forces you to put secrets in your deck that you're pretty unhappy to draw into your hand.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 09, 2014, 04:18:04 pm
WRT secrets Mages, I quite like Ostkaka's mage list presented by Xixo in his Liquidhearth Open victory article (http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/465817-opening-up-xixo-winning-shaman-v-hunter). It did pretty well for me in the dying days of last season, going 25-11 at ranks 5-2, and certainly would have put me in legend with a few more hours of play. It doesn't commit overly much to secrets, just putting in enough to reliably get value from Mad Scientist's deathrattle (5), then throwing in Kirin Tor Mages so that you can play them from your hand for cheap, which makes sense to me since IMO the biggest weakness of Mad Scientist is that it forces you to put secrets in your deck that you're pretty unhappy to draw into your hand.

Thanks for this!

The comments are worth reading, where they discuss secrets mage. I think what Ostkaka says regarding how many secrets should be in the deck is worth reading. 5 is a nice sweet spot for getting value out of them. I think you could maybe make 6 work, but any more than that would be overkill and less than 4 would make it difficult to get value out of KT Mage.

He also talks about Arcanist. He used to run 1 in it, but cut it to add a Gnomish Inventor because it didn't fit the curve of the deck with the amount of card draw he needed. I don't love Arcane Intellect, but it fits the curve of how I like to play the deck. (I always always mulligan it and only plan on playing it around turn 7+.) Plus I run Azures and an Acolyte for extra draw, which he doesn't have space for because he wants to have additional death rattles.

(Disclaimer: His deck is probably better than mine, and he's definitely a better player than me, but Secrets Mage is one of the few styles of deck I play a lot so I have opinions on it.)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 09, 2014, 04:28:01 pm
One Blizzard + two Flamestrike seems overkill...I don't know how your deck plays but I can't imagine that any Mage deck wouldn't want to run Fireball.  It's just such a powerful spell.

I'm definitely not using the three for full board clears, but since more than three quarters of my games last well past ten turns, they become versatile removal spells.

You are right that I miss the Fireballs, though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 10, 2014, 07:06:14 pm
One Blizzard + two Flamestrike seems overkill...I don't know how your deck plays but I can't imagine that any Mage deck wouldn't want to run Fireball.  It's just such a powerful spell.

I'm definitely not using the three for full board clears, but since more than three quarters of my games last well past ten turns, they become versatile removal spells.

You are right that I miss the Fireballs, though.

Okay, I crafted the epic Ice Block.  We'll see how that goes.  I traded it out for the single Ice Barrier I was running.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 10, 2014, 07:45:51 pm
That will probably improve things. Ice Barrier is a pretty meh spell. It's biggest effect on the game is that people have to play like it might be a better secret, only to be relieved to trigger Ice Barrier after possibly (but not necessarily) some sub-optimal play. It has no effect on the board and is basically just a delayed heal. Useful in Freeze mage where your win condition is just to outlast someone until you have the cards and mana to burst them down, but I don't think it's very useful in more typical mage decks.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on September 14, 2014, 01:54:07 am
So I've decided to try more constructed.  I'm running with the following:  http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=71620/ramp-watcher

2x Innervate

2x Wrath
1x Mark of the Wild
1x Wild Growth
2x Ancient Watcher
2x Sunfury Protector

1x Harvest Golem
2x Savage Roar

2x Keeper of the Grove
2x Defender of Argus
1x Spellbreaker
1x Chillwind Yeti

2x Druid of the Claw
1x Stampeding Kodo
1x Harrison Jones
1x Loatheb

1x Force of Nature
1x Sunwalker

2x Ancient of Lore

Any thoughts/suggestions for substitutions?  My collection includes a second Sunwalker, an Ancient of War, a pair of Faceless Manipulators, and a pair of BGHs.  Sludge Belcher instead of Yeti or maybe one Defender?  An extra silence?

Obviously the deck is short on 2-drops.  Put in a couple good 3/2s instead of Wild Growth and perhaps Kodo?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 14, 2014, 02:05:39 am
I would definitely drop the Wild Growth -- it never seems to be worth it.

You could go Faerie Dragon or Ooze.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on September 14, 2014, 02:41:47 am
It's okay to have a deck with a weak turn 2, but you need the late game to back it up. Not sure if you want the 2nd Savage Roar, seems like you only use it for the FoN + Savage Roar combo most of the time.

If you're seeing lots of Hunters, Harrison is okay, but otherwise I'd replace it for something else.

Definitely try to fit in a 1x BGH somewhere, your deck feels more controllish/late game and you don't have good answers for big threats. Drop Harvest/Kodo for it? Leaning more towards Kodo, your 3 mana spot is already a little lacking and BGH is not a card you play turn 3.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 14, 2014, 01:44:45 pm
Definitely try to fit in a 1x BGH somewhere, your deck feels more controllish/late game and you don't have good answers for big threats. Drop Harvest/Kodo for it? Leaning more towards Kodo, your 3 mana spot is already a little lacking and BGH is not a card you play turn 3.

I was actually thinking the same thing. Druid suffers from a lack of creature removal and BGH helps out a lot in that area. (Plus it can combo with Mark of Nature if you need to remove something with 5/6 health.)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on September 14, 2014, 06:11:21 pm
You're not actually short on 2-drops. You have Innervate to play bigger stuff on turn 2, Wrath to remove their stuff, and Watchers and Sunfuries. And with all the taunt in the deck, you can give up a bit of tempo on turn 2 and still come out fine.
I'm not sold on Wild Growth in this deck since you don't really have anything to ramp into. The high end seems kind of lacking.
Harrison Jones is a meta card. If you're not seeing so many weapons, you can probably put something better here.
I also don't think Watcher decks need Kodo, since you deal with the aggro by taunting.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on September 16, 2014, 01:45:01 am
Kelthuzad is just so much fun. It seems people still haven't figured out how to play against him, and sometimes it's just game over if your opponent has minions he can kill. Plus double Kethuzad is just so awesome, I can't begin to express how enjoyable it is to see minions smash yours, and then yours rise back form the dead in doubles.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on September 16, 2014, 01:54:03 am
You're not actually short on 2-drops. You have Innervate to play bigger stuff on turn 2, Wrath to remove their stuff, and Watchers and Sunfuries. And with all the taunt in the deck, you can give up a bit of tempo on turn 2 and still come out fine.
I'm not sold on Wild Growth in this deck since you don't really have anything to ramp into. The high end seems kind of lacking.
Harrison Jones is a meta card. If you're not seeing so many weapons, you can probably put something better here.
I also don't think Watcher decks need Kodo, since you deal with the aggro by taunting.

So I switched out Kodo for Faceless and Wild Growth for a BGH.  So far I'm... 4-8 with this deck, down near Rank 18.  Which doesn't bode too well.  Harrison right now is a liability though, I'm only rarely facing weapon classes.  A second Faceless, Azure Drake, maybe something else at 3?  Even a Loot Hoarder for the extra card...

I find my early game truly lacking; if I don't draw Watcher + something to activate it, or I draw Sunfury/Defender without any minions to turn... I end up dying to early aggro.

I wonder if it would be better to try to rank up with an aggro deck (or Zoolock because hey, it works and the game's over in 5-8 minutes) and then try this deck out at higher ranks against the meta, as opposed to spending 15 minutes per fight (where I am with this deck) and losing to crazy weird basic cards because I'm relying too much on good draws.

Or maybe I should just go back to Arena and working on getting better than 5 average over there.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on September 16, 2014, 02:07:18 am
If you're feeling like the early game is bad, and Harrison isn't great, then drop Harrison for a 3 drop. Second Harvest or Earthen Ring Farseer, maybe? Healing Touch isn't bad either, but I think I prefer Earthen Ring Farseer to Healing Touch.

Sen'jin is good if you want more early taunt. Wild Pyromancer is more potential board clear, Pyro + Wrath = Swipe and Pyro + Swipe will kill most boards.

Just noticed you don't list Swipe in the list, I'm assuming that's a typo because it's in the linked deck and it adds up to 28 cards. - Sunwalker, + Starfall? Sunwalker comes out a bit too late to save you against aggro IMO, it feels better against midrange decks. Whereas Starfall can wreck aggro and is just another board clear to have.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 16, 2014, 02:25:36 am
You could run Power of the Wild x2.  A 3/2 or minion buff for a 2 drop that is almost always good.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 16, 2014, 12:48:24 pm
I wonder if it would be better to try to rank up with an aggro deck (or Zoolock because hey, it works and the game's over in 5-8 minutes) and then try this deck out at higher ranks against the meta, as opposed to spending 15 minutes per fight (where I am with this deck) and losing to crazy weird basic cards because I'm relying too much on good draws.

If you're having trouble with relying on good draws at rank 18 it probably won't do any better at higher ranks. Many of the decks you play there are decks that have churned their way through the lower ranks already with only minor tweaks. I'd suggest keep tweaking the deck you want until you find the right makeup to win consistently. Maybe try Senjins? Or Sludge Belchers? They're really good at slowing aggro decks down. Eggs are a possibility too as they combo nicely with most of the cards that you use to activate Ancient Watchers giving you more combo possibilities.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 17, 2014, 12:15:21 pm
Just had some great value Counterspells against a Freeze mage deck. Counterspell #1 eats a Pyroblast, Counterspell #2 eats a Blizzard.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on September 18, 2014, 01:49:29 am
You're not actually short on 2-drops. You have Innervate to play bigger stuff on turn 2, Wrath to remove their stuff, and Watchers and Sunfuries. And with all the taunt in the deck, you can give up a bit of tempo on turn 2 and still come out fine.
I'm not sold on Wild Growth in this deck since you don't really have anything to ramp into. The high end seems kind of lacking.
Harrison Jones is a meta card. If you're not seeing so many weapons, you can probably put something better here.
I also don't think Watcher decks need Kodo, since you deal with the aggro by taunting.

So I switched out Kodo for Faceless and Wild Growth for a BGH.  So far I'm... 4-8 with this deck, down near Rank 18.  Which doesn't bode too well.  Harrison right now is a liability though, I'm only rarely facing weapon classes.  A second Faceless, Azure Drake, maybe something else at 3?  Even a Loot Hoarder for the extra card...

I find my early game truly lacking; if I don't draw Watcher + something to activate it, or I draw Sunfury/Defender without any minions to turn... I end up dying to early aggro.

I wonder if it would be better to try to rank up with an aggro deck (or Zoolock because hey, it works and the game's over in 5-8 minutes) and then try this deck out at higher ranks against the meta, as opposed to spending 15 minutes per fight (where I am with this deck) and losing to crazy weird basic cards because I'm relying too much on good draws.

Or maybe I should just go back to Arena and working on getting better than 5 average over there.

If you want more targets for the taunt-givers, Eggs could be nice. But yeah, your early game is lacking mostly in the turn 3-4 department. Defender and Spellbreaker need a Watcher to be useful, so you really only have 1 3-drop and 3 4-drops that you can play consistently. I would strive to add in another Yeti/Sen'jin and another 3-drop (Harvest/Farseer) somehow.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 18, 2014, 11:12:50 am
I have lived the dream Warlock opening and that opening is this:
1: Coin-> Egg
2: Egg
3: Void Terror->"Your Soul Shall Suffer"

(It's worth the 8-10 damage you take setting it up, I did this against an aggro deck and was a little nervous, but it's big enough that it turns everything around.)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 20, 2014, 08:40:25 am
Can someone tell me how to beat Ysera?

Seems like without a 12 damage Snipe, it's autowin, since they get the dream card the turn they summon.

I survived awhile, but man, not much I can do.  I got mirror entity emerald drake, then he killed it so it duplicated.  Then I play them and he just does the kill everything but Ysera spell.  Then I cast a strong minion and he saps.  Ysera counters everything.  And with 4 attack, he's immune to shadow words.  Hex and Poly are the only two single card removals, I think.  Or silence, I guess.

But what's the secret?  Is there a card you need to run solely for Ysera possibilities?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on September 20, 2014, 09:16:24 am
Generally you beat Ysera by not giving them a turn they can afford to spend 9 mana to play her. She affects the board not at all the turn you play her, so they basically skip a turn. If your board is threatening enough, then she never gets played because then you'll just win. It's not like they can play Flamestrike and Ysera in the same turn.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on September 20, 2014, 03:30:17 pm
Generally you beat Ysera by not giving them a turn they can afford to spend 9 mana to play her. She affects the board not at all the turn you play her, so they basically skip a turn. If your board is threatening enough, then she never gets played because then you'll just win. It's not like they can play Flamestrike and Ysera in the same turn.

Put another way, if your opponent is in a position where they can play Ysera without losing in the next 1 or 2 turns, the game was over anyways. Ysera's a card you only put in control decks, if they managed to not die until then you're either running a control deck yourself or you failed to get through their defense.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on September 20, 2014, 06:33:09 pm
So I just went 5-0 in unrated using the following plain ridiculous Shaman deck:  http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=72631/ridiculous-deathrattles

Is unrated easier than ladder in general?  Did I get a lucky streak?  Did I find some untapped gem of potential?  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on September 20, 2014, 06:39:40 pm
So I just went 5-0 in unrated using the following plain ridiculous Shaman deck:  http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=72631/ridiculous-deathrattles

Is unrated easier than ladder in general?  Did I get a lucky streak?  Did I find some untapped gem of potential?  Thoughts?

Unrated is quite easier in my experience.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 20, 2014, 09:46:01 pm
So I just went 5-0 in unrated using the following plain ridiculous Shaman deck:  http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=72631/ridiculous-deathrattles

Is unrated easier than ladder in general?  Did I get a lucky streak?  Did I find some untapped gem of potential?  Thoughts?

Unrated is quite easier in my experience.

Yeah, a lot of people try out weird/new deck ideas in unrated, and people who are nervous about losing rank play weak decks there to grind quests. So the quality of the decks are not as solid, but there are good decks there, just not as regularly as in ranked.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on September 20, 2014, 10:35:13 pm
I don't know if there's actual official info confirming it, but: I believe that unranked uses its own MMR, so the quality of opponents you get matched against depends on how well you've performed in unranked in the past.

The best way to judge the quality of a deck (short of something elaborate like, say, having dedicated practice partners), IMO, is to play it in ranked play until you stabilize at roughly 50% winrate. If all you want to know is whether it's better than the previous deck you were playing in ranked, and you had stabilized with that deck, then you can just play a few games and see whether your winrate is well over 50% (good sign), well under 50% (bad sign), or somewhere near 50% (inconclusive). Of course this doesn't account for strength in different matchups, but you need literally hundreds of games to get statistically useful results in even the common matchups.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on September 21, 2014, 12:42:43 am
Of course this doesn't account for strength in different matchups, but you need literally hundreds of games to get statistically useful results in even the common matchups.

I think this is really the main trouble with testing a deck by playing it on the ladder--you do need literally hundreds of games to say "yeah, this is better than 50/50."
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on September 21, 2014, 02:02:37 am
Deathrattle Shaman is actually not that crazy of a deck. It does get so much better if you have Cairne + Sylvanas though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on September 21, 2014, 02:41:12 am
Of course this doesn't account for strength in different matchups, but you need literally hundreds of games to get statistically useful results in even the common matchups.

I think this is really the main trouble with testing a deck by playing it on the ladder--you do need literally hundreds of games to say "yeah, this is better than 50/50."
Decks that are both fundamentally good and well positioned in the ladder meta can get 70%+ winrates, so it doesn't take all that many games to observe that. It's just when you want to know specific matchup strengths and weaknesses that it becomes hard to judge, especially for archetypes that you don't face very often on ladder.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on September 21, 2014, 09:57:32 am
Deathrattle Shaman is actually not that crazy of a deck. It does get so much better if you have Cairne + Sylvanas though.

That would certainly make things more ridiculous.  Oh, you let Cairne stay on the board?  Ancestral Spirit, Reincarnation... yeah.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on September 21, 2014, 12:19:51 pm
Deathrattle Shaman is actually not that crazy of a deck. It does get so much better if you have Cairne + Sylvanas though.

That would certainly make things more ridiculous.  Oh, you let Cairne stay on the board?  Ancestral Spirit, Reincarnation... yeah.

I'm using a shaman death deck, but I don t run ancestral spirit. It's too slow. Reincarnate is just a tool to activate egg, sylvannas and kelthuzad.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on September 24, 2014, 12:54:00 am
Meanwhile, in Constructed, I just got to pull off the Auchenai Soulpriest/Baron Rivendare/2xZombie Chow/CoH combo...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on September 24, 2014, 12:55:34 am
Meanwhile, in Constructed, I just got to pull off the Auchenai Soulpriest/Baron Rivendare/2xZombie Chow/CoH combo...

Your life is complete. You can stop playing hearthstone now.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 24, 2014, 06:31:46 pm
Deathrattle Shaman is actually not that crazy of a deck. It does get so much better if you have Cairne + Sylvanas though.

That would certainly make things more ridiculous.  Oh, you let Cairne stay on the board?  Ancestral Spirit, Reincarnation... yeah.

I'm using a shaman death deck, but I don t run ancestral spirit. It's too slow. Reincarnate is just a tool to activate egg, sylvannas and kelthuzad.

I just finished Naxx so I could attempt something similar. I wanted Kel before I built it. I don't have Sylvanas, but I do have Cairne. Do you mind if I ask what you run? I can't decide whether Chargers and Shielders are good enough to replace some Deathrattlers in this type of deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 25, 2014, 11:33:19 am
Okay here's my shot at a Shaman Deathrattler deck:

2 x Earthshock
1 x Lightning Bolt
2 x Rockbiter
2 x Undertaker
1 x Ancestral Spirit
2 x Reincarnate
2 x Flametongue Totem
2 x Haunted Creeper
2 x Nerubian Egg
2 x Lightning Storm
2 x Harvest Golem
1 x Mana Tide Totem
1 x Baron Rivendare
1 x Bloodlust
2 x Sludge Belcher
1 x Argent Commander
1 x Cairne Bloodhoof
2 x Fire Elemental
1 x Kel'Thuzad

So far it's having good results, better than my Secrets deck anyways (for whatever that's worth). It's got a couple different viable win conditions.
1) Using deathrattlers, eggs and totems establish early board control. Get 4-6 small minions out before opponents have had a chance to draw into AoE and wipe them out with a well timed BLARGLEGARGLE (Bloodlust). (I wasn't sure this was viable when I started the deck, but I've pulled it off 3 times now and almost had lethal in a couple other games unbeknownst to my opponents.)
2) Have Mid-range threats (Rivendare/Sludge Belchers/Cairne/Fire Elementals) eat minion removal spells and then drop Kel'Thuzad to have a turn of trading while I've got a death rattler or two out building on that momentum to a win (this has been less relevant, but has been effective once or twice.)

This deck has lost when opponents have had heavy amounts of Silence in their deck or drawn board clear when I'm out of 1-3 drop minions in hand. For instance, once I got out late-gamed by a Priest who got both his Auchenai, CoH combos off, had a Rag I had to throw my Bloodlust at to remove, and had a Mass Dispel and a Silence to play. He also stole a copy of my K'T :( which I killed with the Argent+something. I got him to start fatiguing, but couldn't draw enough to clear his board.

Anyhow thoughts? I'm not sure exactly what to do with Rivendare when I have him in hand, but he just seems like a good idea in this deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on September 25, 2014, 02:10:57 pm
Deathrattle Shaman is actually not that crazy of a deck. It does get so much better if you have Cairne + Sylvanas though.

That would certainly make things more ridiculous.  Oh, you let Cairne stay on the board?  Ancestral Spirit, Reincarnation... yeah.

I'm using a shaman death deck, but I don t run ancestral spirit. It's too slow. Reincarnate is just a tool to activate egg, sylvannas and kelthuzad.

I just finished Naxx so I could attempt something similar. I wanted Kel before I built it. I don't have Sylvanas, but I do have Cairne. Do you mind if I ask what you run? I can't decide whether Chargers and Shielders are good enough to replace some Deathrattlers in this type of deck.

I'm not on my laptop which has Hearthstone installed, but off the top of my head:

1mana:
Earthshockx2
Rockbiter Weaponx2
Lightning Boltx2

2mana:
Nerubian Eggx2
Haunted Creeperx2 (This is questionable but hey, I don't know what is better)
Reincarnatex2
Flametonguex2

3mana:
Lightning Storm x2
Harvest Golemx2
Hex2

4mana:
Gnomish Inventor x2

5mana:
Azure Drakex2
Sludge Belcherx2

6mana:
Fire elementalx2
Sylvannas Windrunner (you can use Cairne. I don't have him)

8mana:
Kel Thuzad

Actually that's it, all 30 cards. Changes can be made if this doesnt work for you. Maybe you think haunted Creeper would be better as Undertakers, or ancestral spirit is good. They never came in handy for me, and Creeper works really well with Flametongue. Gnomish Inventor is for card draw. It's decent at 4, but this deck needs to draw to not go into top decking too fast.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on September 25, 2014, 02:14:34 pm
Okay here's my shot at a Shaman Deathrattler deck:
...
Anyhow thoughts? I'm not sure exactly what to do with Rivendare when I have him in hand, but he just seems like a good idea in this deck.

I didn't put Rivandare in my deck simply because I don't like his stats, and he's yet another card that is dependent on other minions being out. I also don't run Bloodlust for this reason, as very often it can end up not being very helpful. I also don't run mana tide though, but I feel that your deck may run into top decking issues. Perhaps not, but I've found Shaman to need Drakes or something giving +card to keep up hand size for most of the game.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 25, 2014, 07:39:07 pm
Okay here's my shot at a Shaman Deathrattler deck:
...
Anyhow thoughts? I'm not sure exactly what to do with Rivendare when I have him in hand, but he just seems like a good idea in this deck.

I didn't put Rivandare in my deck simply because I don't like his stats, and he's yet another card that is dependent on other minions being out. I also don't run Bloodlust for this reason, as very often it can end up not being very helpful. I also don't run mana tide though, but I feel that your deck may run into top decking issues. Perhaps not, but I've found Shaman to need Drakes or something giving +card to keep up hand size for most of the game.

I'm still not sure about him, as you say his stats are terrible. I always hold onto him in hopes of comboing him with something, which has mixed results. Some games I've had to toss him out for no purpose other than to draw out a spell or used him for a play involving 4 Spectral Spiders that immediately get destroyed with a single card and I've wondered what use he is.

But when he's good man is he good. He can make up for his lacklustre stats in weird combos involving Eggs or Ancestral Spirit or both! One game Rivendare got me a board that was Egg, Egg, Nerubian, Nerubian, Rivendare, which was so satisfying that I immediately forgave him previous games that he was not particularly useful in.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 25, 2014, 07:51:11 pm
Mana Tide Totem is one of my favourite card drawers. I like drakes, but I wanted something that could be played at the same time as something else so opponents have to pick between removing the card drawer or something else. They're both good though. Reincarnate and Ancestral Spirit are actually filling the role of pseudo card draw in this deck. Reincarnate can generate a copy of a death rattlers token which on the strong ones is like getting a great deal on a card (2 mana for a 4/4 is pretty common).

Ancestral Spirit is pretty strong to play on key cards. If you can get it on any of the 5+ drops (not always possible) it's a huge advantage. If you can't you can still probably get it on a strong card that usually attracts removal like Mana Tide or Flame Tongue this often forces people to try and get rid of smaller threats they can actually deal with entirely first ignoring the big totems entirely letting you get a lot more value out of them. This is probably because they're misplaying, but it's such an unfamiliar situation that people don't always know how to handle it.

I have no regrets running a single Bloodlust in this deck. I'd actually recommend you try it. Deathrattlers + Totems can be really annoying to remove. Giving you more opportunities to burst someone down with Bloodlust than is common in more traditional shaman decks run. People aren't running Hunter much anymore so the biggest counter to having a big board of weak minions is less common.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 25, 2014, 07:54:04 pm
Okay here's my shot at a Shaman Deathrattler deck:
...
Anyhow thoughts? I'm not sure exactly what to do with Rivendare when I have him in hand, but he just seems like a good idea in this deck.

I didn't put Rivandare in my deck simply because I don't like his stats, and he's yet another card that is dependent on other minions being out. I also don't run Bloodlust for this reason, as very often it can end up not being very helpful. I also don't run mana tide though, but I feel that your deck may run into top decking issues. Perhaps not, but I've found Shaman to need Drakes or something giving +card to keep up hand size for most of the game.

I'm still not sure about him, as you say his stats are terrible. I always hold onto him in hopes of comboing him with something, which has mixed results. Some games I've had to toss him out for no purpose other than to draw out a spell or used him for a play involving 4 Spectral Spiders that immediately get destroyed with a single card and I've wondered what use he is.

But when he's good man is he good. He can make up for his lacklustre stats in weird combos involving Eggs or Ancestral Spirit or both! One game Rivendare got me a board that was Egg, Egg, Nerubian, Nerubian, Rivendare, which was so satisfying that I immediately forgave him previous games that he was not particularly useful in.

I use Rivendare in my Naxx zoo, and I don't have that many deathrattle minions.  He's mainly a cheap combo piece for the eggs, of course, but I find he also serves as a quasi-taunt since opponents usually want to remove him right away.  So I use him as a delay tactic where my opponent has to skip a turn to remove him.  I rarely save him for combos anymore.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 25, 2014, 11:59:14 pm
Okay here's my shot at a Shaman Deathrattler deck:
...
Anyhow thoughts? I'm not sure exactly what to do with Rivendare when I have him in hand, but he just seems like a good idea in this deck.

I didn't put Rivandare in my deck simply because I don't like his stats, and he's yet another card that is dependent on other minions being out. I also don't run Bloodlust for this reason, as very often it can end up not being very helpful. I also don't run mana tide though, but I feel that your deck may run into top decking issues. Perhaps not, but I've found Shaman to need Drakes or something giving +card to keep up hand size for most of the game.

I'm still not sure about him, as you say his stats are terrible. I always hold onto him in hopes of comboing him with something, which has mixed results. Some games I've had to toss him out for no purpose other than to draw out a spell or used him for a play involving 4 Spectral Spiders that immediately get destroyed with a single card and I've wondered what use he is.

But when he's good man is he good. He can make up for his lacklustre stats in weird combos involving Eggs or Ancestral Spirit or both! One game Rivendare got me a board that was Egg, Egg, Nerubian, Nerubian, Rivendare, which was so satisfying that I immediately forgave him previous games that he was not particularly useful in.

I use Rivendare in my Naxx zoo, and I don't have that many deathrattle minions.  He's mainly a cheap combo piece for the eggs, of course, but I find he also serves as a quasi-taunt since opponents usually want to remove him right away.  So I use him as a delay tactic where my opponent has to skip a turn to remove him.  I rarely save him for combos anymore.

Which is kindof the same as a Mogadishu Warden then and that's a card I think is pretty bad. I don't think he's worth it unless you're getting some value out of Deathrattles.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 26, 2014, 12:19:59 am
I use Rivendare in my Naxx zoo, and I don't have that many deathrattle minions.  He's mainly a cheap combo piece for the eggs, of course, but I find he also serves as a quasi-taunt since opponents usually want to remove him right away.  So I use him as a delay tactic where my opponent has to skip a turn to remove him.  I rarely save him for combos anymore.

Which is kindof the same as a Mogadishu Warden then and that's a card I think is pretty bad. I don't think he's worth it unless you're getting some value out of Deathrattles.

It's exactly the same as a Warden.  I actually Sunfury Protector'd him when he got silenced in a recent game, so he was an actual Warden.

I mean, when I pull off the Egg/Egg/Pit Terror Combo for a 3/7 Terror and 4 4/4 nerubians, that's amazing.  But the cards don't always line up that way.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 26, 2014, 10:46:13 am
I mean, when I pull off the Egg/Egg/Pit Terror Combo for a 3/7 Terror and 4 4/4 nerubians, that's amazing.  But the cards don't always line up that way.

Yeah, but worst case scenario your Void Terror is a 3/3 for 3 mana. Still a decent card. The fact that it can eat your eggs, spiders or whatever minion you cast Power Overwhelming on is a bonus.

I'd way rather have a naked Void Terror than a Baron Rivendare with nothing to deathrattle (A 4-drop card that I should note would trade evenly or unfavourably with many 3 drops). If you're not getting something out of his deathrattle bonus consistently, you'd probably be better served by a stronger 4 drop. Playing him for nothing but his stats is an unfortunate necessity sometimes, I think he needs to be kept for some sort of deathrattle bonus combo if he's going to pull his weight in the deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on September 26, 2014, 11:05:35 am
So, I have a question about this deck (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11325.msg415131#msg415131) again. The list is slightly different now, I have a second Divine Favor instead of the Harvest Golem and a second Owl instead of the Bluegill, but mostly similar. I've been thinking of crafting a Leeroy for the deck, but since they gave him the nerf, I guess he's still pretty good? Or not worth it? Can the $3 4/2 Charge guy that gives the opponent a mana crystal replace Leeroy?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on September 26, 2014, 11:08:49 am
So, I have a question about this deck (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11325.msg415131#msg415131) again. The list is slightly different now, I have a second Divine Favor instead of the Harvest Golem and a second Owl instead of the Bluegill, but mostly similar. I've been thinking of crafting a Leeroy for the deck, but since they gave him the nerf, I guess he's still pretty good? Or not worth it? Can the $3 4/2 Charge guy that gives the opponent a mana crystal replace Leeroy?

I think you generally want to run 2 wilfriders, as well as the Arcane Golems. Maybe replace 1 arcane with Leeroy if you want, but this deck doesn't feel aggressive enough. Worgen infiltrator isn't super aggressive, and harvest Golem is value, not aggression. SSC is ok I guess, I'm not too sure what else to put the spot though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on September 26, 2014, 11:50:23 am
So, I have a question about this deck (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11325.msg415131#msg415131) again. The list is slightly different now, I have a second Divine Favor instead of the Harvest Golem and a second Owl instead of the Bluegill, but mostly similar. I've been thinking of crafting a Leeroy for the deck, but since they gave him the nerf, I guess he's still pretty good? Or not worth it? Can the $3 4/2 Charge guy that gives the opponent a mana crystal replace Leeroy?

I think you generally want to run 2 wilfriders, as well as the Arcane Golems. Maybe replace 1 arcane with Leeroy if you want, but this deck doesn't feel aggressive enough. Worgen infiltrator isn't super aggressive, and harvest Golem is value, not aggression. SSC is ok I guess, I'm not too sure what else to put the spot though.
I don't run the Golem anymore. What would you play instead of Infiltrator?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on September 26, 2014, 12:19:38 pm
So, I have a question about this deck (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11325.msg415131#msg415131) again. The list is slightly different now, I have a second Divine Favor instead of the Harvest Golem and a second Owl instead of the Bluegill, but mostly similar. I've been thinking of crafting a Leeroy for the deck, but since they gave him the nerf, I guess he's still pretty good? Or not worth it? Can the $3 4/2 Charge guy that gives the opponent a mana crystal replace Leeroy?

I think you generally want to run 2 wilfriders, as well as the Arcane Golems. Maybe replace 1 arcane with Leeroy if you want, but this deck doesn't feel aggressive enough. Worgen infiltrator isn't super aggressive, and harvest Golem is value, not aggression. SSC is ok I guess, I'm not too sure what else to put the spot though.
I don't run the Golem anymore. What would you play instead of Infiltrator?

Why don't you run golem? And I don't know what to run instead, I guess you want the 2 drops, but I never considered it a very amazing card.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 26, 2014, 12:22:25 pm
So, I have a question about this deck (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11325.msg415131#msg415131) again. The list is slightly different now, I have a second Divine Favor instead of the Harvest Golem and a second Owl instead of the Bluegill, but mostly similar. I've been thinking of crafting a Leeroy for the deck, but since they gave him the nerf, I guess he's still pretty good? Or not worth it? Can the $3 4/2 Charge guy that gives the opponent a mana crystal replace Leeroy?

I think you generally want to run 2 wilfriders, as well as the Arcane Golems. Maybe replace 1 arcane with Leeroy if you want, but this deck doesn't feel aggressive enough. Worgen infiltrator isn't super aggressive, and harvest Golem is value, not aggression. SSC is ok I guess, I'm not too sure what else to put the spot though.
I don't run the Golem anymore. What would you play instead of Infiltrator?

Wargen seems to be in the deck because there aren't really any other good 1-drops to fit the decks style left? You might want to focus a little bit less on making sure you have a strong start (you have lots of 1s and 2s to choose from already) and work on strong cards for your 3rd and 4th turns. Defender of Argus, Dark Iron Dwarf, or another Wolfrider all seem like they'd help in that regard. (I'd probably go with the DoA or Wolfrider since you're a Paladin deck and those cards work better with Equality).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 26, 2014, 12:24:15 pm
Scarlet Crusaders and a single Sword of Justice seem like they'd work well here also.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on September 26, 2014, 12:25:36 pm
Scarlet Crusaders and a single Sword of Justice seem like they'd work well here also.

Yeah true, lots of aggro Paladin's run Sword of Justice.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 26, 2014, 12:35:48 pm
I just looked it up because I couldn't remember it's mana cost and got a good look at it's artwork. I usually don't comment on this sort of thing, but what a frigging dumb looking sword. IT'S GOT TWO BLADES MAN! IT'S SO BADASS! TWICE THE BLADE=====FIVE TIMES THE CUTTING!

Edit: http://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/567-sword-of-justice
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on October 04, 2014, 05:54:11 pm
Odd thing about Wild Growth as P2: if you coin Wild Growth, it's like exchanging player seat except that: your opponent doesn't have a coin and you skipped your 1 and 2 mana turns. As P2, averaged over both turns, you're 1/2 mana behind, 1/2 card ahead, and have a coin. After coining Wild Growth, you're 1/2 mana ahead and 1/2 card behind, like as if you were P1 to begin with, except your opponent doesn't get a coin in return, and your next turn is with 3 mana, like P1's turn 3.

I suppose it's true that the coin is significant enough, and P1's first two turns useless enough (if not playing Wild Growth), that this is still an advantage for P2.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on October 11, 2014, 10:45:04 pm
I played in a mini-Hearthstone tourney today! It was only 8 people, so we did 4 rounds of Swiss, best of 3, where I went 2-2.

One of my losses was pretty funny though. My opponent's playing Control Warrior, I'm playing some janky Undertaker Priest, and he's just played Loatheb. I drop Deathload + Unstable Ghoul + Injured Blademaster and heal Blademaster, so now I have 4 minions to his 1.

His turn: Brawl, he rolls the 1/5 and Loatheb lives...and pulls out Grommash from Deathlord, which comes into play before Unstable Ghoul trigger, so it got activated as well. Needless to say, I lost that game pretty badly.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on October 12, 2014, 05:53:54 am
Just lost to a warrior in ranked...I know it's lame to complain about being Legendary'ed to death, but man...

Rag, Geddon, Sylvanas, Cairne, Alex...I only have 2 polymorphs.

In the end, I died to fatigue, and not him, though.  That's something.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on October 12, 2014, 08:58:59 am
Just lost to a warrior in ranked...I know it's lame to complain about being Legendary'ed to death, but man...

Rag, Geddon, Sylvanas, Cairne, Alex...I only have 2 polymorphs.

In the end, I died to fatigue, and not him, though.  That's something.

Thats how the deck works. Also he had Gromash and probably Harrison, Enranged Gromash (it usually follows an Alex turn) is his main win condition, you always have to lookout for that thing.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on October 12, 2014, 12:49:46 pm
Just lost to a warrior in ranked...I know it's lame to complain about being Legendary'ed to death, but man...

Rag, Geddon, Sylvanas, Cairne, Alex...I only have 2 polymorphs.

In the end, I died to fatigue, and not him, though.  That's something.

I hear you, that deck is super annoying to play against, you need so much removal in your deck to outlast it. Usually it's better to just try and out aggro it because it's a huge late-game deck. You need to play more aggressively and win before he can do more than play a Cairne or Sylvanas or you've already lost.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on October 12, 2014, 12:50:49 pm
Just lost to a warrior in ranked...I know it's lame to complain about being Legendary'ed to death, but man...

Rag, Geddon, Sylvanas, Cairne, Alex...I only have 2 polymorphs.

In the end, I died to fatigue, and not him, though.  That's something.

Thats how the deck works. Also he had Gromash and probably Harrison, Enranged Gromash (it usually follows an Alex turn) is his main win condition, you always have to lookout for that thing.

Ysera and Loatheb are often in that deck too. It's pretty ridiculous.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on October 12, 2014, 05:08:34 pm
Just lost to a warrior in ranked...I know it's lame to complain about being Legendary'ed to death, but man...

Rag, Geddon, Sylvanas, Cairne, Alex...I only have 2 polymorphs.

In the end, I died to fatigue, and not him, though.  That's something.

Thats how the deck works. Also he had Gromash and probably Harrison, Enranged Gromash (it usually follows an Alex turn) is his main win condition, you always have to lookout for that thing.

Ysera and Loatheb are often in that deck too. It's pretty ridiculous.

He played Loatheb early.  I feel like a Kel'thuzad was there, too.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on October 12, 2014, 05:22:34 pm
Just lost to a warrior in ranked...I know it's lame to complain about being Legendary'ed to death, but man...

Rag, Geddon, Sylvanas, Cairne, Alex...I only have 2 polymorphs.

In the end, I died to fatigue, and not him, though.  That's something.

Thats how the deck works. Also he had Gromash and probably Harrison, Enranged Gromash (it usually follows an Alex turn) is his main win condition, you always have to lookout for that thing.

Ysera and Loatheb are often in that deck too. It's pretty ridiculous.

He played Loatheb early.  I feel like a Kel'thuzad was there, too.

Kel'thuzad is really only good if you have enough little minions to take advantage of his ability. Shaman is really good for him, probably Paladin is not bad. But he really is a midrange deck kind of card, not for a deck that plays tons of huge minions.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on October 14, 2014, 12:50:05 am
How important are Thalnos and Edwin to Miracle Rogue these days? I was looking through my collections, and discovered I actually have 2 Preps, plus 2 copies of all the other important spells, and a Malygos if I wanted to run the Malygos variation. I'm giving some pretty serious thought to building the deck, but I'm not sure if I want to spend the dust on the legendaries or not.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on October 14, 2014, 01:09:35 am
How important are Thalnos and Edwin to Miracle Rogue these days? I was looking through my collections, and discovered I actually have 2 Preps, plus 2 copies of all the other important spells, and a Malygos if I wanted to run the Malygos variation. I'm giving some pretty serious thought to building the deck, but I'm not sure if I want to spend the dust on the legendaries or not.

I gave it a shot last week in casual with 2 preps and all the spells, but no Edwin/Thalnos/Leeroy and I can say that was definitely not good enough.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on October 14, 2014, 02:17:18 am
How important are Thalnos and Edwin to Miracle Rogue these days? I was looking through my collections, and discovered I actually have 2 Preps, plus 2 copies of all the other important spells, and a Malygos if I wanted to run the Malygos variation. I'm giving some pretty serious thought to building the deck, but I'm not sure if I want to spend the dust on the legendaries or not.

I gave it a shot last week in casual with 2 preps and all the spells, but no Edwin/Thalnos/Leeroy and I can say that was definitely not good enough.

I have both Malygos + Leeroy - it might be decent enough. I'm busy for the next couple of days so I can't go try it out right now.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: EgorK on October 14, 2014, 09:12:02 am
Maly rogue is quite good in current meta. Edwin is not cornerstone of this deck
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on October 14, 2014, 12:11:29 pm
I just opened a Leeroy the other day. Is Leeroy still good in Miracle Rogue after the erf?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on October 14, 2014, 12:49:36 pm
I just opened a Leeroy the other day. Is Leeroy still good in Miracle Rogue after the erf?

Yeah, I think he's still pretty good in Miracle, you can't get off quite the really crazy combos you could previously (Leeroy, Shadowstep, Leeroy, Shadowstep, Leeroy, Cold Blood, Cold Blood for 26 damage for instance), but you can still Leeroy, Shadowstep, Leeroy, Cold Blood x 2, for a slightly less crazy combo of 20 damage and still very scary.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 14, 2014, 03:20:43 pm
I'm not so sure how I feel about Cold Blood in Miracle. It's a very all-in kind of card. 4 damage for 1 mana is really good, but the card can end up dead in your hand a lot. Running 2x seems like you're pushing it. It used to be common to see 2, but I think 0-1 was more common last I had seen. Anyway, I don't know about giving credit to Leeroy for the Cold Blood damage. Leeroy is a 5 mana Fireball that turns Shadowsteps into 3 mana Fireballs. Leeroy+Shadowstep is like 2x Fireball, so that's still quite a fine finisher.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on October 14, 2014, 05:41:24 pm
I've been looking at the deck from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx8h7uwmdjs

For Cold Blood, I think the key thing is that on the turn you go off, you have an Auctioneer in play already. So, you're very likely to have Cold Blood not be a dead card, since you can just put it on Auctioneer and attack with that.

The deck in the video has some interesting choices - no SI:7, Perdition's Blade is 4 damage on the turn you play it + gives you a Deadly Poison target for cheap, Arcane Golem for Shadowstep target instead. No Malygos because it seems like it plans to win before 9 mana can even happen.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 14, 2014, 07:50:27 pm
Cold blood is kind of "win more". So is Conceal. If you have an Auctioneer out, you're in great shape no matter what. If you don't have an Auctioneer out, the cards are terrible. So running 2 of each makes your deck really "coin-flippy". If you happen to draw Auctioneer, you can't lose; if you don't, you can't win. Day9's deck is really all-in on getting lucky and drawing an Auctioneer. The better Miracle decks, imo, run more minions to hold up the midgame until you draw that Auctioneer, and then single Conceal, 0-1 Cold Blood. With no Auctioneer yet, I'd much rather be able to play Farseer/SI:7/Azure/etc. than to stare at a hand full of unplayable 1 mana spells.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on October 15, 2014, 12:48:41 pm
I've been on a hot streak with what I'm calling Yeti Watcher. It's a variant of Ancient Watcher bolstered by a whole bunch of Yeti size minions. It lacked some removal so I added a BGH.

0s:
2 x Innervate
2s:
2 x Watcher
2 x Egg
2 x Protector
1 x Mark
2 x Wrath
1 x Wild Growth
3s:
1 x SSC
1 x BGH
4s:
2 x Yeti
2 x Keeper
2 x Spellbreaker
2 x Swipe
2 x Defenders
5s:
2 x Druid
1 x Loatheb
6s:
1 x Cairne
7s:
1 x AoL
9s:
1 x Cenarius

The goal of the deck is to protect your hero with Watchers and Eggs while threats that are difficult to remove with AoE smacks your opponent or his minions around. Ideal opening combo when you are Control is Watcher or Egg+Activation (silences can buff Watcher, but not Eggs, buffers can buff eggs, taunters activate both though are not ideal for Watcher). Ideal opening when you are the aggro/beatdown is Turn 2 Innervate into Yeti (though a turn 2 watcher/protector is also really strong) It's a little tricky to get a feel for when you are the control and when you are the beatdown, as this changes depending on the deck you're up against, but it's a fun, flexible deck and very effective against a lot of decks, especially ones that are vulnerable to Silence (you have 4 silences, and don't need them for the Watchers, though they are sometimes preferable to Taunt).

Room for improvement:
I'd sub out Cenarius for Rag or Ysera if I had either of them. I'd also sub out the SSC for another BGH if I had a second one to improve this deck against late game decks and probably something for a second AoL if I had one. This deck could probably use the FoN/SR combo to good effect as well. I don't have FoN so I'm playing without it, but if you have them that might make this deck better. The Black Knight would work really well and combos with Mark.

Notable matchups:
This deck struggles against Paladin Weeny decks as Equality is really strong against it. Try to trade before the Equality combos go off.
This deck is pretty great against aggro if you get a Watcher or Egg combo, but can have a rough time if you don't have a Watcher or Egg in play by turn 2, it's worth Mulliganing pretty aggressively to get one.
This deck is really strong against Priest who can't use Shadow Words against a lot of the threats in this deck (careful not to buff cards to be above 4 against Priest).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on October 16, 2014, 03:57:20 am
So I started running this hunter deck recently, and it's a lot of fun:

http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/468923-jbfletchers-hunter-sligh-1-legendary-deck

Only changes I've made is dropping a Belcher for Leeroy and two Explosive Traps and one Snake Trap instead of the other way around (I had to craft the one Snake Trap).

It's been working really well so far and it's a lot of fun.  The hyenas are the surprising strengths.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on October 16, 2014, 10:35:45 am
So I started running this hunter deck recently, and it's a lot of fun:

http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/468923-jbfletchers-hunter-sligh-1-legendary-deck

Only changes I've made is dropping a Belcher for Leeroy and two Explosive Traps and one Snake Trap instead of the other way around (I had to craft the one Snake Trap).

It's been working really well so far and it's a lot of fun.  The hyenas are the surprising strengths.

That's a fun looking deck. I might try it, I'm only missing 1 Snake Trap and 1 Eaglehorn to do this. I'll sub in an Explosive Trap and a Flare probably. Seen a lot of Secrets recently.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on October 16, 2014, 11:36:56 am
I just remembered that I can now pull off the Leeroy+UtH combo now that I have Leeroy.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on October 18, 2014, 07:37:56 am
How do I beat handlock?  It feels like if I can't burst from 21 life to zero in one turn, I can't win.

And I just don't have much capability for a 21 attack turn...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: EgorK on October 18, 2014, 08:55:09 am
How do I beat handlock?  It feels like if I can't burst from 21 life to zero in one turn, I can't win.

And I just don't have much capability for a 21 attack turn...

You do not need to burst him in one turn. Playing hunter you do not care about overdamaging handlock, just save kill comands for last push to face
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on October 18, 2014, 09:02:36 am
How do I beat handlock?  It feels like if I can't burst from 21 life to zero in one turn, I can't win.

And I just don't have much capability for a 21 attack turn...

You do not need to burst him in one turn. Playing hunter you do not care about overdamaging handlock, just save kill comands for last push to face

Really?  Every game is lost when he triple Giants, argus two of them and shadowflame the third...

He can't cast Giants at 21 health, but below that, as he approaches killable levels, the Giants destroy me.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: EgorK on October 18, 2014, 11:33:27 am
How do I beat handlock?  It feels like if I can't burst from 21 life to zero in one turn, I can't win.

And I just don't have much capability for a 21 attack turn...

You do not need to burst him in one turn. Playing hunter you do not care about overdamaging handlock, just save kill comands for last push to face

Really?  Every game is lost when he triple Giants, argus two of them and shadowflame the third...

He can't cast Giants at 21 health, but below that, as he approaches killable levels, the Giants destroy me.

But really, he can't do that realistically at over 10 health. And at 10 he still need dream hand to do it. And you can still win by double KC
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on October 18, 2014, 11:40:15 am
How do I beat handlock?  It feels like if I can't burst from 21 life to zero in one turn, I can't win.

And I just don't have much capability for a 21 attack turn...

You do not need to burst him in one turn. Playing hunter you do not care about overdamaging handlock, just save kill comands for last push to face

Really?  Every game is lost when he triple Giants, argus two of them and shadowflame the third...

He can't cast Giants at 21 health, but below that, as he approaches killable levels, the Giants destroy me.

But really, he can't do that realistically at over 10 health. And at 10 he still need dream hand to do it. And you can still win by double KC

Yeah I've found beating Handlock pretty easy recently. I'm playing a reincarnate Shaman and there are a lot of ways to deal with giants if you have a couple minion on the board. And Shaman, my deck in particular, generally has a lot of minions out. And with all the deathrattles even if he board clears there are generally some little guys left over.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on October 18, 2014, 11:50:01 am
How do I beat handlock?  It feels like if I can't burst from 21 life to zero in one turn, I can't win.

And I just don't have much capability for a 21 attack turn...

You do not need to burst him in one turn. Playing hunter you do not care about overdamaging handlock, just save kill comands for last push to face

Really?  Every game is lost when he triple Giants, argus two of them and shadowflame the third...

He can't cast Giants at 21 health, but below that, as he approaches killable levels, the Giants destroy me.

But really, he can't do that realistically at over 10 health. And at 10 he still need dream hand to do it. And you can still win by double KC

Yeah I've found beating Handlock pretty easy recently. I'm playing a reincarnate Shaman and there are a lot of ways to deal with giants if you have a couple minion on the board. And Shaman, my deck in particular, generally has a lot of minions out. And with all the deathrattles even if he board clears there are generally some little guys left over.
Shaman tends to have the edge against handlock, especially if they run Bloodlust. I've noticed it's really effective to deliberately keep handlocks at high health until you have near-lethal.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on October 18, 2014, 12:15:04 pm
I'm playing Paladin aggro and I think the Handlock matchup is slightly favorable for me. Divine Favor is super useful, Equality deals with the Giants and I can also deal a lot of damage pretty fast. The problematic games are when I'm forced to play an Equality at a suboptimal time or when I don't have it.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on October 18, 2014, 03:53:45 pm
When playing against Handlock, keep in mind that they won't always have two Molten Giants in hand, or even one, and in the cases where they do, they might not have any taunt-givers in hand. If you don't ever play around Molten Giants, you will still win some games. If you can play around Molten Giants, you either want to put them low enough that you can finish with spells to face, or hold back a bit of damage to put them at a total where you can kill in one turn using a burst combo. Priest isn't very good at either of these, which is one reason they struggle vs Handlock.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 18, 2014, 04:44:59 pm
I think a lot of people try too hard to play around Molten Giants. If you don't have a burst combo to kill from over half health, then keeping your opponent over half health doesn't really do any good. Waiting just gives him more time to draw the Giants.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on October 18, 2014, 08:52:42 pm
I think a lot of people try too hard to play around Molten Giants. If you don't have a burst combo to kill from over half health, then keeping your opponent over half health doesn't really do any good. Waiting just gives him more time to draw the Giants.
Pretty much this if you're a Priest. I can't see Priest outliving handlock in the long term.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: nkirbit on October 19, 2014, 11:09:56 pm
I just opened a Grom, which gives me enough incentive to try and finally try out control warrior.  Anyone have a list they particularly like or would recommend?  Just looking around I see quite a variety of different lists, so if anyone has any lists they like that would be as good of a place as anywhere to start.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 19, 2014, 11:25:13 pm
^I'm currently playing control Warrior at rank 2, and my list is:
2x Execute
2x Shield Slam
2x Slam
2x Axe
2x Armorsmith
2x Taskmaster
2x Shield Block
2x Acolyte
2x Death's Bite
2x Korkron
1x Spellbreaker
1x Brawl
1x Faceless
2x Belcher
1x Sylvanas
1x Geddon
1x Grom
1x Rag
1x Alex

More "standard" control Warriors don't run Slam or Korkron or Geddon, and have Unstable Ghoul, BGH, Loatheb, Cairne and/or Ysera. My version is a little meta-specific. I see mostly a lot of decks based on overwhelming the board with small minions (Hunter, Shaman, Zoo), and I think Slam, Korkorn, and Geddon are all very good vs this without giving up too much vs slower decks. Unstable can potentially 2-for-1 or better when Slam won't, but if gives them some initiative to decide what hits the Ghoul. With Slam, you make sure the Knife Juggler (or whatever other priority target) is dead asap. Korkron is great vs stuff with 2 attack or less, since vs them it's nearly an Argent Commander for 2 mana less. And Geddon is a board clear that transitions into a threat, while vs control, it eats a BGH that would otherwise go to Rag or Alex. Slam is also fine vs control as you can cantrip it, and Korkron can sometimes give Priests a bit of trouble (though this deck is still a big underdog to control Priest).

EDIT: I should mention, a big selling point of this deck is that nearly 2/3 of the cards can affect the opponent's board the turn I play them, which makes it much harder for them to establish a board to overwhelm me with. This makes it not too much trouble to survive and then win when the big cards come out.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on October 19, 2014, 11:36:46 pm
So I've risen higher than ever before in ranked (9 + 5 stars, which isn't much, but much better than before for me) using the sligh hunter deck, slightly modified:

1x Hunter's Mark
2x Undertaker
2x Webspinner
2x Explosive Trap
1x Snake Trap
2x Haunted Creeper
2x Knife Juggler
2x Mad Scientist
2x Scavenging Hyena
2x Eaglehorn Bow
2x Animal Companion
2x Kill Command
2x Unleash the Hounds
2x Houndmaster
1x Sludge Belcher
1x Leeroy Jenkins
2x Savannah Highmane

I'm finding the trouble I run into is Handlock, Priests, and Warriors built to outlast opponents.  They're generally removing my big threats (pumped up hyenas) and my usual removal doesn't work on giant minions (traps, lots of trading, juggled knives, etc.).

Should I think about adding some removal?  A second Hunter's Mark?  Explosive Shot?  I mean, Hunter's Mark + Snake Trap/Unleash gets rid of one big minion.  One or two Kill Commands can get another.  Leeroy can maybe take out another...but that's it.  But if I'm adding things in, what am I removing?

I've thought about trading out a Bow for a Hunter's Mark.  Or a Houndmaster for Deadly Shot?  Gladiator's Longbow?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 19, 2014, 11:50:00 pm
^That deck is just a super-aggro deck. You're never going to get above 50% vs Control Warrior or Priest, though you should be fast enough to give Handlock trouble, and should get some wins vs the super-control decks when you draw well. I don't think you can get enough from adding more removal compared to what you lose in aggression. If the game goes past turn 8, you're in bad shape either way.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on October 20, 2014, 12:52:35 am
I've been seeing hunters with similar decks run Leper Gnomes. I haven't been too impressed by them yet, but they do ok. Sludge belcher seems out of place though. It's a slow card isn't it? Or is the value too good not have at least one in your deck?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 20, 2014, 12:59:43 am
Sludge Belcher is in like every deck. It's just too good. In a control deck, it soaks up a bunch of damage from a more aggressive deck, and in the aggressive deck, it protects your other threats from being efficiently removed while sticking to the board to provide more damage itself (and also buffs undertaker).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on October 20, 2014, 05:18:38 am
Sludge Belcher is in like every deck. It's just too good. In a control deck, it soaks up a bunch of damage from a more aggressive deck, and in the aggressive deck, it protects your other threats from being efficiently removed while sticking to the board to provide more damage itself (and also buffs undertaker).

This.  It can keep an undertaker alive for a highmane, for example.  The original ran two, I traded one out for Leeroy.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on October 20, 2014, 05:19:26 am
Sludge Belcher is in like every deck. It's just too good. In a control deck, it soaks up a bunch of damage from a more aggressive deck, and in the aggressive deck, it protects your other threats from being efficiently removed while sticking to the board to provide more damage itself (and also buffs undertaker).

This.  It can keep an undertaker alive for a highmane, for example.  The original ran two, I traded one out for Leeroy.

You also need some taunts or they just play around Snake Trap.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 23, 2014, 02:21:45 pm
I finally made Legend, with the Control Warrior deck I posted a few posts back. The matchup stats are pretty interesting. From rank 4 to legend, the deck went 42-22 breaking down as:
12-8 hunter
10-0 shaman
1-8 control warrior
5-1 zoolock
4-2 priest
2-2 handlock
2-1 miracle
5-0 other

Basically the deck did it's job of stomping down Hunter, Shaman, and Zoo (27-9, 75%) while being horrible vs more greedy Control Warrior decks (1-8, 11%). I think it should also be an underdog to Priest (though less so than other Control Warriors would be) and slightly to Handlock, but I was fortunate enough to be able to go 50%+ in those matchups.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on October 23, 2014, 03:29:11 pm
How many of those Shamans were bots?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 23, 2014, 03:55:50 pm
3 or 4. The deck is actually really good vs Shaman.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on October 23, 2014, 05:13:48 pm
How can you tell the bots from the humans?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 23, 2014, 06:07:21 pm
They don't hover over cards in their hand before playing them and all moves have the same amount of time between them.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on October 23, 2014, 06:45:35 pm
They don't hover over cards in their hand before playing them and all moves have the same amount of time between them.

Do they have usernames that seem randomized and/or in Chinese characters?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 23, 2014, 07:02:06 pm
No there is no point having a pure bot since you can't trade anything. People have to have the bot grind in their actual account.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on October 23, 2014, 08:52:54 pm
I finally made Legend, with the Control Warrior deck I posted a few posts back. The matchup stats are pretty interesting. From rank 4 to legend, the deck went 42-22 breaking down as:
12-8 hunter
10-0 shaman
1-8 control warrior
5-1 zoolock
4-2 priest
2-2 handlock
2-1 miracle
5-0 other

Basically the deck did it's job of stomping down Hunter, Shaman, and Zoo (27-9, 75%) while being horrible vs more greedy Control Warrior decks (1-8, 11%). I think it should also be an underdog to Priest (though less so than other Control Warriors would be) and slightly to Handlock, but I was fortunate enough to be able to go 50%+ in those matchups.

I'm shocked at how under represented Mage and Druid are here. I don't play them exclusively, but my Watcher Druid and Secret Mage decks are my favourites. I still see a lot of Secret Mage at my level and some Token/Ramp Druid, are these not played at high level any more?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on October 23, 2014, 09:07:13 pm
They don't hover over cards in their hand before playing them and all moves have the same amount of time between them.
This, weird arrows (pointing their arrow at hero power is common), no emotes, and golden shaman or warlock zoo, are all indicators. I've played vs bots that hover cards in their hand, but in such a bizarre un-human-like way that it's obvious they are bots.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: shraeye on October 23, 2014, 09:27:53 pm
wait, there are bots that play hearthstone?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 23, 2014, 11:19:57 pm
I'm shocked at how under represented Mage and Druid are here. I don't play them exclusively, but my Watcher Druid and Secret Mage decks are my favourites. I still see a lot of Secret Mage at my level and some Token/Ramp Druid, are these not played at high level any more?

There is an article on LiquidHearth using data from hearthstats.net users with breakdown of the percentage of each class played at various level tiers (among heathstats users). Mage and Druid are more common at lower levels and Hunter is more common at higher levels. Note of course that this is not a random sample.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on October 23, 2014, 11:58:34 pm
OK, so playing this hunter deck, in the space of about 15 games my Webspinners have given me Krush 3 times and Mukla once.  I think I have used up all my luck for the month.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on October 24, 2014, 10:32:42 am
OK, so playing this hunter deck, in the space of about 15 games my Webspinners have given me Krush 3 times and Mukla once.  I think I have used up all my luck for the month.

But have they given you The Beast yet? (I've gotten all three, but I'm always disappointed I didn't get a third Highmane, which has only happened once.)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on October 25, 2014, 12:40:31 am
OK, so playing this hunter deck, in the space of about 15 games my Webspinners have given me Krush 3 times and Mukla once.  I think I have used up all my luck for the month.

But have they given you The Beast yet? (I've gotten all three, but I'm always disappointed I didn't get a third Highmane, which has only happened once.)

I get Mukla the most, the Krush, and The Beast just once.  I got a third Highmane once as well.  I feel like Hungry Crab is too often the prize.

The worst is another web spinner, though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 25, 2014, 12:48:30 am
The worst is another web spinner, though.
How is that the worst? Any card that you would willingly put into your deck is good.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on October 25, 2014, 01:07:01 am
The worst is another web spinner, though.
How is that the worst? Any card that you would willingly put into your deck is good.

Not literally, obviously.  But it's annoying.  You want something better, and on curve.  Another 1 mana lottery ticket token is a delay I don't need.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on October 25, 2014, 01:27:40 am
The worst is another web spinner, though.
How is that the worst? Any card that you would willingly put into your deck is good.

Not literally, obviously.  But it's annoying.  You want something better, and on curve.  Another 1 mana lottery ticket token is a delay I don't need.

Sure, but it's also better than Chicken, Crab, Dragonhawk, Boar, or Parrot.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 25, 2014, 01:43:36 am
The worst is another web spinner, though.
How is that the worst? Any card that you would willingly put into your deck is good.

Not literally, obviously.  But it's annoying.  You want something better, and on curve.  Another 1 mana lottery ticket token is a delay I don't need.

Sure, but it's also better than Chicken, Crab, Dragonhawk, Boar, or Parrot.

as well as The Beast, Core Hound, Silverback, Timberwolf, Pather, Rhino, Grizzly, King Krush...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on October 25, 2014, 10:43:26 am
The worst is another web spinner, though.
How is that the worst? Any card that you would willingly put into your deck is good.

Not literally, obviously.  But it's annoying.  You want something better, and on curve.  Another 1 mana lottery ticket token is a delay I don't need.

Sure, but it's also better than Chicken, Crab, Dragonhawk, Boar, or Parrot.

as well as The Beast, Core Hound, Silverback, Timberwolf, Pather, Rhino, Grizzly, King Krush...

Timberwolf should be okay in a deck that runs Snake Trap. Grizzly isn't great, but can help boost Scavenging Hyena. But yeah another Webspinner can boost Undertaker or something.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on November 10, 2014, 11:22:56 am
So, I'm considering dusting all my spare golden cards to craft a Legendary.  Question is, which one?  My playstyle is to have fast games, lots of aggro/face.  I'm not patient enough for control, plus my time to play is limited and I prefer quantity when I can get it. 

List of choices:
Cenarius
Archmage Antonidas
Tirion Fordring
Prophet Velen
Edwin Van Cleef
Al'Akir
Lord Jaraxxus
Grommash
Bloodmage Thalnos
Lorewalker Cho
Millhouse Manastorm
Nat Pagle
Tinkmaster Overspark
Elite Tauren Chieftain
Harrison Jones
Gelbin Mekkatorque
Hogger
Illidan Stormrage
Sylvanas Windrunner
The Beast
The Black Knight
Baron Geddon
Gruul
Ragnaros the Firelord
Malygos
Nozdormu
Onyxia
Ysera
Deathwing
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on November 10, 2014, 11:45:17 am
So, I'm considering dusting all my spare golden cards to craft a Legendary.  Question is, which one?  My playstyle is to have fast games, lots of aggro/face.  I'm not patient enough for control, plus my time to play is limited and I prefer quantity when I can get it. 



If you want fast games, legendaries, or at least most of them, don't help. Most are control cards.

This would be my list of your actual choices.

List of choices:
Grommash
Bloodmage Thalnos
The Black Knight

I took out the silly ones, but of course you can carft the silly ones if you want to have some fun.

EDIT: Even Thalnos isn't great in aggro. Really aggro doesn't need legendaries. Zoo doesn't run any, aggro Paladin doesn't (and it kind of sucks), aggro wairrior could run Grommash, but also not a great deck. TBK is really good now because of all the sludge belchers.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on November 10, 2014, 12:49:18 pm
For an aggro deck, none of those legendaries really helps you. If you're interested in Token Druid I'd pick Cenarius or Black Knight, otherwise I'd save your dust for new expansion.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on November 10, 2014, 06:27:59 pm
The top aggro-y decks currently (zoo and hunter) tend not to run craftable legendaries, as stated. If Backspace Rogue ever makes a comeback, King Mukla is important there, but Mukla is not on your list so I assume you have it already. Leeroy is still good for face decks but also not on your list.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on November 10, 2014, 07:03:52 pm
Thanks for all the advice.  Makes sense.  Maybe an expansion legendary or many other cards will be worth the dust.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on November 10, 2014, 07:15:11 pm
Thanks for all the advice.  Makes sense.  Maybe an expansion legendary or many other cards will be worth the dust.

I realise you want to play more games, but control decks are where it's at. Sure aggro is ok, Hunter does well, but I haven't seen much zoo lately and even Hunter isn't super popular.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on November 11, 2014, 12:29:03 am
There's also midrange/tempo decks. You don't have to play facerush to play fast.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on November 22, 2014, 03:22:25 pm
I have made a silly Ooze Rogue deck. I don't think it's very competetive, but man when it works it is so much fun. The secret is you bounce oozes back into your hand to make an endless army of buffed oozes.

Key cards:
Ooze
Shadowstep
Brewmasters
Anubar Ambushers
Defender of Argus
SSC
Cold Blood
Knife Jugglers
Vanish

Aside from that I just filled it with good early game rogue cards plus a Gadgetzan and a Sprint for draw. The most fun I had was playing it against a Coldlight Rogue who tried to mill me to death and Vanished my Ooze army twice giving me an endless stream of Ooze to overwhelm her with.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on November 22, 2014, 05:46:32 pm
I'm messing with a rogue stealth-charge deck.  It can be neat, but probably is too weak.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on November 26, 2014, 02:45:41 am
So I got this deck in arena and it's working nicely -- and it's fun.  I was wondering if you could work something similar in constructed...

Paladin Arena:

Avenge x3
Blessing of Might
Leper Gnome x2
Equality
Argent Protector
Mad Bomber
Mad Scientist
Unstable Ghoul
Demolisher
Harvest Golem
Raging Worgen
Scarlet Crusader x2
Truesilver Champion
Consecration x3
Hammer of Wrath
Chillwind Yeti
Defender of Argus
Gnomish Inventor
Spellbreaker
Wailing Soul
Stranglethorn Tiger
Frost Elemental
Lord of the Arena
Tirion Fordring


Obviously you'd swap some stuff out for sensibility/rules -- things like Wailing Soul and Mad Bomber are clearly there for curve, I'd switch in an Owl for the Spellbreaker, probably make some sense of all the three drops (add a Golem, drop a Demolisher, etc.), but otherwise seems like you could form something out of this.

Is this something?  Or am I crazy?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on November 26, 2014, 10:03:25 am
It just seems like lots of minions and some Avenges + the usual Paladin stuff like Truesilver and consecration. I don't know what seems so amazing about it. There are decks that try to use Avenge, and they are alright. But Avenge is usually easy to deal with and not very strong in constructed.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on December 15, 2014, 02:29:29 pm
I drafted a Shadowform in a Priest Arena game and it won me every game I got it early in. Is it viable in Constructed? I have two of them, but don't have a lot of the other priest Rare/Epics.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on December 15, 2014, 02:36:52 pm
I drafted a Shadowform in a Priest Arena game and it won me every game I got it early in. Is it viable in Constructed? I have two of them, but don't have a lot of the other priest Rare/Epics.

It's really slow in constructed, and with all the aggro I think Priest really needs the healing. Maybe if you want to try a shadow Priest, but those are more joke decks than competitive decks.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on December 15, 2014, 02:37:56 pm
I drafted a Shadowform in a Priest Arena game and it won me every game I got it early in. Is it viable in Constructed? I have two of them, but don't have a lot of the other priest Rare/Epics.

Shadowform is generally considered to be terrible.  It's too slow, and arena is the best place to try to get away with being too slow.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on December 15, 2014, 02:49:05 pm
I drafted a Shadowform in a Priest Arena game and it won me every game I got it early in. Is it viable in Constructed? I have two of them, but don't have a lot of the other priest Rare/Epics.

Shadowform is generally considered to be terrible.  It's too slow, and arena is the best place to try to get away with being too slow.

That's kinda what I thought, but I had so much fun with it, I was hoping someone would tell me otherwise. In Arena it's pretty good in any game you have good aoe (I had Mechanical Sheep, Abomination), you fall behind when you cast it turn 2 or 3 and then catch up by board wiping with your AOE spells/minions.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on December 22, 2014, 02:41:54 pm
So I just opened a Malorne. What should I do with it? Is it a key card in any type of deck?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on December 22, 2014, 02:49:48 pm
So I just opened a Malorne. What should I do with it? Is it a key card in any type of deck?

I'd keep it, just because it's a legendary. I'm not sure it fits into anything yet, but it's fun, and I think it'll be worth to have later.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 22, 2014, 04:53:52 pm
So I just opened a Malorne. What should I do with it? Is it a key card in any type of deck?

It's a big body, and can act as multiple threat cards if you're getting through most of your deck. But it's probably worse as a late game minion than Boom, Rag, Cenarius, Ysera, Alex, and Sneed. So depending on how many of those you own and how many late game threats you want to run, you *might* be able to use it in a ramp deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on December 23, 2014, 01:17:55 pm
So I just opened a Malorne. What should I do with it? Is it a key card in any type of deck?

It's a big body, and can act as multiple threat cards if you're getting through most of your deck. But it's probably worse as a late game minion than Boom, Rag, Cenarius, Ysera, Alex, and Sneed. So depending on how many of those you own and how many late game threats you want to run, you *might* be able to use it in a ramp deck.

I have Cenarius who I run in one of my Druid decks, but don't have those others. I'm not really sure I have enough late game legendaries for a proper ramp, but I'll toss it in for a bit and play around with it. Right when I'm done playing around with these new Jeeves decks... the mage version is really fun, and I think it's time for me to try out a rogue version.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on December 23, 2014, 01:22:11 pm
So I just opened a Malorne. What should I do with it? Is it a key card in any type of deck?

It's a big body, and can act as multiple threat cards if you're getting through most of your deck. But it's probably worse as a late game minion than Boom, Rag, Cenarius, Ysera, Alex, and Sneed. So depending on how many of those you own and how many late game threats you want to run, you *might* be able to use it in a ramp deck.

I have Cenarius who I run in one of my Druid decks, but don't have those others. I'm not really sure I have enough late game legendaries for a proper ramp, but I'll toss it in for a bit and play around with it. Right when I'm done playing around with these new Jeeves decks... the mage version is really fun, and I think it's time for me to try out a rogue version.

If you have the other pieces of a top heavy ramp deck (3 or 4 Ancients, Force of Nature, plus a few dates), I'd say Cenarius/Malorne should be plenty of late legends, especially since if the game somehow lasts a really long time, you'll likely play Malorne twice...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on December 23, 2014, 01:23:22 pm
(I run my ramp deck with Rag, Onyxia, 3 Ancients, and the awesome Force-Tank MAX)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on December 23, 2014, 01:40:23 pm
So I just opened a Malorne. What should I do with it? Is it a key card in any type of deck?

It's a big body, and can act as multiple threat cards if you're getting through most of your deck. But it's probably worse as a late game minion than Boom, Rag, Cenarius, Ysera, Alex, and Sneed. So depending on how many of those you own and how many late game threats you want to run, you *might* be able to use it in a ramp deck.

I have Cenarius who I run in one of my Druid decks, but don't have those others. I'm not really sure I have enough late game legendaries for a proper ramp, but I'll toss it in for a bit and play around with it. Right when I'm done playing around with these new Jeeves decks... the mage version is really fun, and I think it's time for me to try out a rogue version.

If you have the other pieces of a top heavy ramp deck (3 or 4 Ancients, Force of Nature, plus a few dates), I'd say Cenarius/Malorne should be plenty of late legends, especially since if the game somehow lasts a really long time, you'll likely play Malorne twice...

No Force of Nature and only 1 of each Ancient so I think my late game isn't good enough. I've got the early game pieces though. It's the sort of thing that I'll build if I get the cards in packs, but I haven't wanted to craft any of the other Epic pieces needed. Maybe I will eventually if I get one more of the pieces, but 800-1600 dust is a lot for me to spend on this deck even if I've already got the Legendaries needed.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 23, 2014, 02:57:55 pm
Ancient of Lore is probably worth crafting if you want to play any Druid deck at all. It's just one of the most obscenely powerful cards in the game.

You don't technically need Force of Nature. In a ramp deck, it's just a secondary win condition or potentially removal. You can have your win condition just be your big minions (and Facelesses), and use Starfall to replace the removal.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on December 23, 2014, 04:12:45 pm
So many good late game epics. Ancients and Giants, and now all those cool GvG cards. So much dust needed to craft them all. At least I have my 2 Recombobulators and 1 Sky Golem.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on December 23, 2014, 04:18:18 pm
So many good late game epics. Ancients and Giants, and now all those cool GvG cards. So much dust needed to craft them all. At least I have my 2 Recombobulators and 1 Sky Golem.

Yeah, I'm starting to think it's more important for decks to craft Epics than Legendaries. I don't think I'll ever have a complete Legendary set so I'm just going to accept that and use my dust for Epics.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on December 23, 2014, 05:22:47 pm
My Ramp runs these Legendaries: Loatheb, Cairn, Maexxna, Troggzor, Kel'Thuzad, and Alex.

I have double Ancient of Lore, and use one FON.

That seems like enough.  I'd like a Sylvanus/Rag maybe, but not sure if it's worth crafting.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 23, 2014, 05:44:06 pm
So many good late game epics. Ancients and Giants, and now all those cool GvG cards. So much dust needed to craft them all. At least I have my 2 Recombobulators and 1 Sky Golem.

Yeah, I'm starting to think it's more important for decks to craft Epics than Legendaries. I don't think I'll ever have a complete Legendary set so I'm just going to accept that and use my dust for Epics.

There are only a few legendaries that completely anchor decks and are absolutely needed for that style:
Grommash, and to a lesser extent Antonidas and Jaraxxus. Tirion is also huge for Paladin. Then there's Alexstrasza for any control deck that is likely to not deal any face damage for the first 8 turns and Leeroy for the OTKs. Beyond that, you want Dr. Boom and/or Rag for general purpose bigness. Ysera if your deck can push it that late, but it's not nearly as generally useful. Thalnos and Sylvanas are more generally useful and probably craftworty. Harrison is the current big tech card since there's so much control Warrior, Jaraxxus, and Muster for Battle. But pre-GvG, the Black Knight was the big one for Sludge Belchers and taunting giants. And there's Geddon too for cleaning up aggro.

If you have Vol'jin, Edwin, Cenarius or Gallywix, you probably use them, but you're probably not dying to craft any of them. You also might prefer to craft legendaries that can anchor some other type of less good deck that you want to play, like Malygos, Deathwing, Mal'ganis, Neptulon, Gazlowe, Toshley, Leeroy, Mimiron, Velen... but getting a complete collection doesn't seem that worthwhile.

I'd say you're "done" when you have:
Boom, Rag, Alex, Grommash, Sylvanas, Antonidas, Jaraxxus, Tirion, Thalnos, Leeroy, Harrison, Black Knight, and Geddon, plus whatever specific gimmick ones you like (and of course Loatheb, but you don't craft him). Obviously you can skip the ones for archetypes you don't like playing (I dusted my Leeroy, and it doesn't bother me).

The highest priority epics are BGH for any control deck, Lore/Force for Druid, Shield Slam/Brawl for Warrior, Mountain/Molten for Handlock, Cabal for Priest, Ice Block/Doomsayer/Pyroblast for freeze Mage, Prep for Miracle, probably Quartermaster for Paladin, Doomhammer for Shaman, Snake Trap for Aggro Hunter, and maybe Faceless for control decks if you can't afford all the Legendaries you want. Feign Death and Sabotage are also going to be pretty staple though not as critical for their decks as the others.

Note that you can craft 4 epics for the price of one Legendary, so all 4 giants is like just one Legendary, and makes a deck much more so than some mediocre Legendary like Cairne.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on December 23, 2014, 06:08:26 pm
Do you craft Rag or Boom first?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on December 23, 2014, 06:40:48 pm
So I opened the rogue's new Epic--Cogmaster's Wrench--as a golden.  1/3 weapon, 3/3 if you have a mech, for 3 mana, just seems... awful.  That could be a more useful epic or another legendary.  Any thoughts, is this likely to see play in constructed?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on December 23, 2014, 06:43:10 pm
So I opened the rogue's new Epic--Cogmaster's Wrench--as a golden.  1/3 weapon, 3/3 if you have a mech, for 3 mana, just seems... awful.  That could be a more useful epic or another legendary.  Any thoughts, is this likely to see play in constructed?

You probably put one in a mech rogue deck. If you don't plan to play Rogue, since it's not super strong, then I'd say there are better Epics. Quatermaster comes to mind, Cabal too.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 23, 2014, 11:50:49 pm
Do you craft Rag or Boom first?

Boom. While Rag deals damage the turn he comes out, Boom comes out a turn sooner. He also can't totally whiff.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 23, 2014, 11:54:59 pm
So I opened the rogue's new Epic--Cogmaster's Wrench--as a golden.  1/3 weapon, 3/3 if you have a mech, for 3 mana, just seems... awful.  That could be a more useful epic or another legendary.  Any thoughts, is this likely to see play in constructed?

3/3 for 3 is good and mech rogue seems like a thing -- Jeeves is like a more playable Sprint, and rogue is very good with low mana cards. I'd give it a shot if I had it.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Twistedarcher on December 24, 2014, 12:36:46 pm
I've played against two mill decks this morning, running ETC + Coldlight oracle + Dancing swords + Mukla + Clockwork giants. One was a rogue running saps and kidnappers as removal, the other was a druid running grove tenders and naturalize. Neither won, but they were fun to play against and seemed semi-viable.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on December 24, 2014, 12:52:03 pm
I've played against two mill decks this morning, running ETC + Coldlight oracle + Dancing swords + Mukla + Clockwork giants. One was a rogue running saps and kidnappers as removal, the other was a druid running grove tenders and naturalize. Neither won, but they were fun to play against and seemed semi-viable.
I encountered a few Druids doing the same. One even had 2 Trees of Life. They also ran a Poison Seeds. I won one of them and lost the other. Aggro is tough matchup for those decks I think. Even Deathlord works with what the deck is trying to do.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on December 24, 2014, 12:56:59 pm
What's funny is that even those mill decks don't want to run Goblin Sapper. The 3 mana spot is filled with Dancing Swords and Grove Tender for Druid already.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on December 24, 2014, 01:42:51 pm
Do you craft Rag or Boom first?

Boom. While Rag deals damage the turn he comes out, Boom comes out a turn sooner. He also can't totally whiff.
Boom doesn't really whiff. Quite the opposite, sometimes luck has the Boom Bots do way more than they should. Just now, I had 2 Boom Bots vs. a SI:7 Agent and a Shattered Sun Cleric that buffed the agent. I rammed one bot into the cleric, and it's deathrattle did 4 damage to the agent, killing it. the other bot finishes off the cleric and does face damage. Felt bad for my opponent there.

I guess it's an example of annoying RNG like that, but Dr. Boom is at least a 9/7 spread across 1 big unit and 2 tiny ones (not counting 1 health from Boom Bot health as a stat, as they usually just suicide into stuff on the first turn they can attack).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Twistedarcher on December 30, 2014, 08:17:25 pm
I've played against two mill decks this morning, running ETC + Coldlight oracle + Dancing swords + Mukla + Clockwork giants. One was a rogue running saps and kidnappers as removal, the other was a druid running grove tenders and naturalize. Neither won, but they were fun to play against and seemed semi-viable.
I encountered a few Druids doing the same. One even had 2 Trees of Life. They also ran a Poison Seeds. I won one of them and lost the other. Aggro is tough matchup for those decks I think. Even Deathlord works with what the deck is trying to do.

This deck is all the rage lately. It's had several reddit threads and streamers running it. I just built it (no legendaries!) and it's actually doing fairly well -- I've had 2/2 opponents rage quit so far.

Decklist I'm using is at http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/140918-natural-remedies
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Dekryr on December 30, 2014, 09:15:38 pm
So I just opened a Malorne. What should I do with it? Is it a key card in any type of deck?

I'd keep it, just because it's a legendary. I'm not sure it fits into anything yet, but it's fun, and I think it'll be worth to have later.

Sorry to bring this back up, but I just came back to f.ds and found this forum.  ;D

Malorne is an amazing card in a super late game control Druid. Unfortunately, that deck is not yet viable. Druid doesn't have enough good removal to make a deck like that work. Compare druid's removal to the other very control type decks: Execute/Shield slam, Mind Control/Shadow word Death/Voljin, Equality, Siphon soul/Shadowflame a giant...Naturalize and Poison Seeds don't compete with any of those. Druid just doesn't have the tools to build a late game deck where Malorne would shine. Mid-range druid that wants to burst you with Force-Savage Roar is just so much better.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on December 30, 2014, 09:23:55 pm
So I just opened a Malorne. What should I do with it? Is it a key card in any type of deck?

I'd keep it, just because it's a legendary. I'm not sure it fits into anything yet, but it's fun, and I think it'll be worth to have later.

Sorry to bring this back up, but I just came back to f.ds and found this forum.  ;D

Malorne is an amazing card in a super late game control Druid. Unfortunately, that deck is not yet viable. Druid doesn't have enough good removal to make a deck like that work. Compare druid's removal to the other very control type decks: Execute/Shield slam, Mind Control/Shadow word Death/Voljin, Equality, Siphon soul/Shadowflame a giant...Naturalize and Poison Seeds don't compete with any of those. Druid just doesn't have the tools to build a late game deck where Malorne would shine. Mid-range druid that wants to burst you with Force-Savage Roar is just so much better.

Well I think it's better in mill druid, which is also not a thing yet but is at least strong enough to beat other control decks. In fact, a control druid is essentially a mill druid. Mill works by controlling the board, healing a lot, and burning a few cards from your opponent if they are control. It just needs a way to work against aggro decks before it really becomes viable.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on December 31, 2014, 01:29:46 am
So I just opened a Malorne. What should I do with it? Is it a key card in any type of deck?

I'd keep it, just because it's a legendary. I'm not sure it fits into anything yet, but it's fun, and I think it'll be worth to have later.

Sorry to bring this back up, but I just came back to f.ds and found this forum.  ;D

Malorne is an amazing card in a super late game control Druid. Unfortunately, that deck is not yet viable. Druid doesn't have enough good removal to make a deck like that work. Compare druid's removal to the other very control type decks: Execute/Shield slam, Mind Control/Shadow word Death/Voljin, Equality, Siphon soul/Shadowflame a giant...Naturalize and Poison Seeds don't compete with any of those. Druid just doesn't have the tools to build a late game deck where Malorne would shine. Mid-range druid that wants to burst you with Force-Savage Roar is just so much better.

What about Recycle? Recycle should be considered in the discussion, if we're talking Druid removal.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Dekryr on December 31, 2014, 10:14:43 am
I forgot about recycle. It's tempo removal, so I'm not sure how good it is in a very control oriented deck. If the game is going to go long, you will see the recycled card again. Recycle probably fits better into a mid-range play style where the tempo can help you finish the game, which is what Druid already does very well, and I don't think Malorne fits in that deck.

I will admit that I didn't think about him as a good mill card, which he probably is. Mill is really the only control Druid deck that even kind of works right now. Mill runs those removals that I mentioned earlier (Poison Seeds and Naturalize), but the deck has to be a bit gimmicky to play around the weaknesses of those cards. Even with Malorne, I still think that mill doesn't quite have enough tools yet to be viable. It's closer than it was but I still think mid-range druid is better.

But if you want to use your Malorne, go ahead and build a mill deck. It seems like it would be fun to play and it is not terrible. I would probably try it out some if I had Malorne...or coldlight oracle...or grove tender...or tree of life. Ahh well.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Twistedarcher on December 31, 2014, 12:32:33 pm
Mill is definitely viable, at least between ranks 5-10. May not get legendary but I would imagine it could get close. It clobbers priest and control warrior and has a chance against everything else.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on December 31, 2014, 01:01:59 pm
Mill is definitely viable, at least between ranks 5-10. May not get legendary but I would imagine it could get close. It clobbers priest and control warrior and has a chance against everything else.
I haven't tried control Priest or Warrior in awhile, but I imagine it clobbers them hard. Handlock looks beatable as a Mill druid too, because Mill Druid actually can run Poison Seeds and Tree of Life. Against aggro it can go either way. It's decent enough against aggro/Mech that those decks should consider building around them with stickier minions (think Harvest Golem and the piloted mechs over Mech Yetis).

I'm still not sure Malorne is the best you can get in Mill.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Twistedarcher on December 31, 2014, 01:34:36 pm
Malorne doesn't really work towards the end game objective. You want heals, removal, and cards that mill, and nothing else -- Malorne doesn't fit into any of these categories. He's too slow to deal with aggro, and against control, they'll have tons of removal for him because what else are they going to use their removal on?

Edit: Getting a Malorne Mind Controlled or Sylvanas'd would be a disaster, as well. It could actually lose games on its own in Mill druid.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on December 31, 2014, 01:48:25 pm
Malorne doesn't really work towards the end game objective. You want heals, removal, and cards that mill, and nothing else -- Malorne doesn't fit into any of these categories. He's too slow to deal with aggro, and against control, they'll have tons of removal for him because what else are they going to use their removal on?

Edit: Getting a Malorne Mind Controlled or Sylvanas'd would be a disaster, as well. It could actually lose games on its own in Mill druid.
Malorne seems like a use-it-if-you-got-it option for Ramp Druid though. Ragnaros and Ancient of Lore are not cheap to craft.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Twistedarcher on December 31, 2014, 02:09:50 pm
Yeah, it's probably good for ramp druid, especially vs. control matchups where you're likely to draw it multiple times.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on December 31, 2014, 03:23:20 pm
Aggro... should I start just using aggro decks for questing?  Apparently they're pretty good in the meta, and of course are faster.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on December 31, 2014, 05:45:56 pm
Aggro... should I start just using aggro decks for questing?  Apparently they're pretty good in the meta, and of course are faster.

If you want to play more games, use aggro. Control decks are usually more interesting though, with more decisions to make.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 31, 2014, 06:28:06 pm
If you don't enjoy playing aggro, then don't play aggro. But there's a huge gradient of levels of aggressiveness you can play. There's face Hunter and face Rogue, then Mech decks with Jeeves, then Zoo with Leper Gnomes, then higher curve Zoo, then midrange Hunter and Mech decks with Azure Drake and Undertaker Priest, then secret Mage and normal midrange Druid, and then you're almost into control decks.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Dekryr on December 31, 2014, 08:10:53 pm
Aggro... should I start just using aggro decks for questing?  Apparently they're pretty good in the meta, and of course are faster.

Depends. If you want to just get your quests done quickly then aggro will of course go faster. Unfortunately, the ladder is designed in such a way that if you want to move up the ladder quickly then aggro decks are much faster and get you many more games. If reaching legend is your goal, an aggro deck will get you there in less real time. It may take you less games with a really good control deck, but it will take you more actual hours to do it. HME gave a good rundown of the different types of aggro decks as well. Right now Hunter and Warlock - zoo are the 2 best aggro decks imo. I like mech-Mage as well, but some may argue it's not aggro, but it stills plays pretty quickly for laddering.

Edited to more accurately describe HME's good post.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 31, 2014, 10:37:33 pm
To clarify, I was listing all major kinds of decks from most aggro-y to less aggro-y. Different people are going to cut off what they call "aggro" at different points on the list, but the point is that there is quite a nice gradient to fit what ever level of aggressiveness suits you.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on January 05, 2015, 08:49:43 am
I cracked a Malganis, and I think you put at least one recombobulator in decks he's involved in. 

Never have I played with Nozdormu so much.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on January 05, 2015, 12:46:19 pm
I recently tried building a MechWarrior deck to quest with. Playing around with it I thought it would be a good Hobgoblin/Mech hybrid deck, but don't have any Hobgoblins to try it out with. Has anyone tried something using cards like the ones below?

Hobgoblins

Hobgoblin/Mech synergy:
Annoy-o-Tron
Warbot
Micro Machine
Cogmaster

Mech Synergy:
Mech Warper
Screwjank Clunker

Hobgoblin Synergy:
Acolyte of Pain
Armoursmith

General Warrior cards:
Frothing Berserker
Weapons to curve
Cruel Taskmaster
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on January 12, 2015, 01:08:17 pm
Finally got a ramp druid deck to a point where it seems to work in ranked. I'm short an ancient of lore so I put in two Azure Drakes to fill it's spot until I can craft a second one.
0:
2 x Innervate
2:
2 x Wild Growth
2 x Wrath
1 x Robo Cub
3:
1 x BGH
1 x Grove Tender
4:
2 x Keeper of the Grove
2 x Swipe
5:
2 x Sludge Belcher
2 x Azure Drake
1 x Loatheb
2 x Antique Healbot
1 x Faceless Manip
6:
2 x Sunwalker
1 x Cairne
7+:
1 x Troggzor
1 x AoL
1 x AoW
1 x Malorne
1 x Kel Thuzad
1 x Cenarius

If I had another AoL I'd remove the Azures and put in AoL and maybe a Zombie Chow. I'd replace Kel for Ragnaros or Ysera if I could and AoW or Cairne for Sylvanas. If you have Force of Nature the combo with Savage Roar is probably a big improvement on this deck too.

A pretty flexible template though is Innervates, Wild Growth, Wrath, BGH, Swipes, Keepers, Antique Healbots, Sludge Belchers, AoLs and whatever big things you can throw into a Druid deck. This curve seems to work out pretty well.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on January 12, 2015, 03:19:13 pm
Interesting take...why Sunwalkers over DotC?  I like the versatility of choosing charge.

I keep one FON+Roar in my deck, for burst.  I feel like Alex is pretty important, too.  I also don't run Grove Tender, Faceless, or Healbots, but do have 1 Healing Touch.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on January 12, 2015, 03:51:56 pm
Interesting take...why Sunwalkers over DotC?  I like the versatility of choosing charge.

I keep one FON+Roar in my deck, for burst.  I feel like Alex is pretty important, too.  I also don't run Grove Tender, Faceless, or Healbots, but do have 1 Healing Touch.

DotC does have versatility, but I don't think I'd ever use the 4/4 charge option in this deck. I've never played a game where I think that I would have chosen anything but Taunt. Sunwalkers seem more durable than DotC, primarily against Fireballs, but also against weapons.

As to your other suggestions Alex would be huge as would the FON+Roar combo, but I don't have either of those things. Grove Tender is a card I don't think is strictly necessary, but it seemed to fit in well at that point in the curve. I'd rather have a second healbot than a Healing Touch, and the Faceless is pretty good especially when against control because you can steal a copy of something before you kill it.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on January 12, 2015, 04:32:34 pm
For reference, here's my deck compared to yours:

0:
2 x Innervate

2:
2 x Wild Growth
2 x Wrath  >>> 1 x Wrath
1 x Robo Cub

3:
1 x Healing Touch
1 x BGH
1 x Grove Tender
1 x Savage Roar
2 x Shade of Naxxramas


4:
2 x Keeper of the Grove
2 x Swipe
1 x Chillwind Yeti
1 x Sen'jin Shieldmaster


5:
2 x Druid of the Claw
2 x Sludge Belcher
2 x Azure Drake
1 x Loatheb
2 x Antique Healbot
1 x Faceless Manip


6:
1 x Force of Nature
2 x Sunwalker
1 x Cairne

7+:
1 x Troggzor
1 x AoL >>> 2 x AoL
1 x AoW
1 x Malorne

1 x Kel Thuzad
1 x Cenarius
1 x Dr. Boom
1 x Sneed's Old Shredder
1 x Alexstrasza


I used to run Loatheb and Maexxna, but they're a bit situational.  i could swap out Chillwind and Sen'jin for something -- possibly those or Healbots or something.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on January 12, 2015, 05:10:07 pm
Having Alex might mean you don't need the second Healbot, but the fact that you have a Healing Touch makes me think you could swap the spell for a Healbot for positive effect. Your 7+ Legendaries seem better than mine, but I think it's just about which ones you own vs which ones I own.

The Shades are an interesting addition, how do you use them if you draw them early vs late? How do you use them vs aggro or control?

I don't think I'd consider taking Loatheb out of this deck. He's super good in any situation.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on January 12, 2015, 05:53:39 pm
Having Alex might mean you don't need the second Healbot, but the fact that you have a Healing Touch makes me think you could swap the spell for a Healbot for positive effect. Your 7+ Legendaries seem better than mine, but I think it's just about which ones you own vs which ones I own.

The Shades are an interesting addition, how do you use them if you draw them early vs late? How do you use them vs aggro or control?

I don't think I'd consider taking Loatheb out of this deck. He's super good in any situation.

I honestly had never really thought about Healbot, as I wasn't running any real mech decks.  I could swamp him in for HT, since I'm never casting Healing Touch when 2 mana matters.

I've found the Shades to be key -- I'll basically mulligan everything but Innervate/Wild Growth to get them in my opening hand.  Innervated Shade on T1 or Coined on T2 is best, and I never use them until I can trade favorably or they are out of removal range for my opponent (generally 4/4 for Priest/Shaman/Mage to work around Shadow Word: Pain, Lightning Bolt, Frostbolt; 5/5 for Druid vs. Swipe).  They'll generally trade at least 2 for 1 (minion I slam into, plus the spell they burn to kill it, for example).  I think they are good value.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on January 12, 2015, 05:56:53 pm
I think Healbot is generally better than Healing Touch, since you're usually just healing yourself anyway. You might as well take the body.

I think Grove Tender is bad. It doesn't do anything. Might as well be Ogre Brute or Spider or Harvest Golem for better stats. It's possible the +mana benefits you, since you have more big minions, but I don't think it does enough. Shade is okay, but not great without Roar. It can be 3/3 vs aggresive decks and just sit till it outgrows cheap removal or is the right size to 2-for-1 vs control.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on January 12, 2015, 06:52:43 pm
I honestly had never really thought about Healbot, as I wasn't running any real mech decks.  I could swamp him in for HT, since I'm never casting Healing Touch when 2 mana matters.

I think it's good enough that it can be used in any control deck whether they have Mech synergies going on or not.

I think Grove Tender is bad. It doesn't do anything. Might as well be Ogre Brute or Spider or Harvest Golem for better stats. It's possible the +mana benefits you, since you have more big minions, but I don't think it does enough.

I can't really defend it as I have found it to be underwhelming. I thought it would be versatile and useful in ramp (either better cards to use the extra mana with or on average better cards to take advantage of the draw) but it is particularly bad against aggro (which is the decks biggest struggle) as you either give them more mana to play out their cards faster and most aggro decks have some way to draw cards anyways so you're usually just helping them kill you before your cards come online or you give them a card which gives them a better chance of drawing key removal cards. I'll probably swap it for a Shade or a Brute before I play this deck again.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on January 12, 2015, 09:19:40 pm
Grove tender is kind of like a 2mana 2/4. It's not a 3 drop. It's a 4 drop that lets you play a 2 mana card at the same time. Personally I've found it to be quite good. Certainly better than running Wild Growth.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on January 12, 2015, 11:12:43 pm
Nah, Grove tender is awesome.  Your deck is designed to have perfect mana utilization based on a Grove Tenders kicking you in gear.  Your opponent's deck is tuned to have perfect mana utilization without the help.  Then you play Grove Tender turn 4 (turn 3 if you have zombie chow or claw) and both players are getting 3 innervates over the rest of the game, your opponent wastes theirs but you are ready.

I mean, I think it definitely can be good.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on January 12, 2015, 11:14:08 pm
Obviously the Warlock hero power allows you to totally circumvent what I just said, but that's why it's a modal card, you just don't choose the ramp mode against Warlock.  And conveniently you make their doomguards not-free instead.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on January 12, 2015, 11:18:21 pm
Yeah that's the theory, but you really have to be able to nail your modified mana curve. The problem is that a lot of control decks were never planning on hitting their curve perfectly, and will happily use the extra mana just as well as you can, so you didn't give yourself any advantage.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on January 14, 2015, 06:56:36 pm
Yeah that's the theory, but you really have to be able to nail your modified mana curve. The problem is that a lot of control decks were never planning on hitting their curve perfectly, and will happily use the extra mana just as well as you can, so you didn't give yourself any advantage.
You gotta pair it with other assaults on their mana efficiency.  Earmark your keepers for acolytes and let duplicate proc on mechwarper
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on January 24, 2015, 03:04:40 pm
I opened a Steamwheedle Sniper the other day and made space for it in my Hunter deck. It fits in a mid-range-y style of play (one where you fight for control in the early game and then just face rush after hopefully briefly establishing control). It suffers from not really fitting into any tribe (beast or deathrattle) but its power is really good and its stats are fine. Playing it turn 4 can be pretty good if you don't have a 4 drop in hand. Anyone else using this card? My overall impression is that it can be good if you have it because it's very versatile, but it is hardly necessary to any constructed deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on January 24, 2015, 03:08:48 pm
The reason Aucheni is good is because not only does it combo with Circle, but it has 5 heal so you can potentially use your hero power more than once to deal damage. Sniper dies to easy to really take advantage of the ability too much.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on January 24, 2015, 05:38:44 pm
The reason Aucheni is good is because not only does it combo with Circle, but it has 5 heal so you can potentially use your hero power more than once to deal damage. Sniper dies to easy to really take advantage of the ability too much.

You don't really need to take advantage of it that much for it to be worth it. Once is usually enough for it to earn you a good trade or a free kill of a 2 drop.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on January 24, 2015, 07:34:29 pm
I just opened my second Dark Wispers!  Now I'm tempted to try to rework my token deck...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on January 24, 2015, 07:35:27 pm
Also, does anyone run Mech-Bear-Cat or whatever it is called?  I thought about replacing Cairne with it in my Ramp deck...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on January 24, 2015, 11:06:22 pm
I just opened Mogor the Ogre, which doesn't seem terrible. Does anyone have him? Do you have a use for him? I was thinking of just putting him into my ramp deck and seeing how he does.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on January 24, 2015, 11:53:46 pm
Mech-Bear-Cat: I love this card in Arena, but I'm not sure if it'll be as good in constructed. Since it has 7 attack, it's likely to get hit by BGH. I've heard Piloted-Sky Golem > Cairne in the current meta because it kills Belcher, Loatheb, and all the other 5 health minions. If you have them, I'd try that replacement first.

I think Mech-Bear-Cat compares infavorably to Toshley. Also 6 mana, 5/7 instead of 7/6 is a better stat spread IMO, and I don't see Mech-Bear-Cat getting more than 2 spare parts on average. Of course, Toshley is legendary though...

Mogor: He's funny. I don't know if he's good or not, but you don't run Mogor the Ogre for that reason. I'm trying to decide whether Mogor helps vs hurts you if you have few big minions vs lots of small minions. If you miss, you might kill a 1/1 with your big dude, but the other player will also have a lot of misses that run into your big guys. It's hard to call...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on January 25, 2015, 12:22:43 am
Mogor the Ogor seems decent as a 3rd copy of "Spellbreaker" for aggro Warrior, in my mind.  When handlock drops belchers or taunt moltens, it can give you a decent chance to slip past to the face.  I think Ogre Brute is already good for that archetype, so the insane logic of it kind of stacks with itself when you can take "attack it and hope for the best?" from 50% up to 75%.

I don't have Mogor the Ogor, so I can't try it.  It seems like a good idea to me though.  The other classes can tech for handlock with direct damage, but Warrior only gets Mortal Strike, which is highly dependent on your opponent forgetting that Mortal Strike is a card.  So that's why it would be a Warrior only thing.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Dekryr on January 26, 2015, 07:16:11 pm
Mech-Bear-Cat: I love this card in Arena, but I'm not sure if it'll be as good in constructed. Since it has 7 attack, it's likely to get hit by BGH. I've heard Piloted-Sky Golem > Cairne in the current meta because it kills Belcher, Loatheb, and all the other 5 health minions. If you have them, I'd try that replacement first.

I think Mech-Bear-Cat compares infavorably to Toshley. Also 6 mana, 5/7 instead of 7/6 is a better stat spread IMO, and I don't see Mech-Bear-Cat getting more than 2 spare parts on average. Of course, Toshley is legendary though...

Mogor: He's funny. I don't know if he's good or not, but you don't run Mogor the Ogre for that reason. I'm trying to decide whether Mogor helps vs hurts you if you have few big minions vs lots of small minions. If you miss, you might kill a 1/1 with your big dude, but the other player will also have a lot of misses that run into your big guys. It's hard to call...

I think most people are replacing Cairne with Sneed's, but Piloted Sky Golem is also OK. Most ramps already have TBK and Sylvanas at 6 mana I think, so Sneed's being more isn't a huge deal. Sneed's doesn't die to BGH and trades with belchers and 5/5's, they are all weak to silence of course. Toshley is the better option if you want the spare parts for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on January 26, 2015, 07:34:54 pm
Mech-Bear-Cat: I love this card in Arena, but I'm not sure if it'll be as good in constructed. Since it has 7 attack, it's likely to get hit by BGH. I've heard Piloted-Sky Golem > Cairne in the current meta because it kills Belcher, Loatheb, and all the other 5 health minions. If you have them, I'd try that replacement first.

I think Mech-Bear-Cat compares infavorably to Toshley. Also 6 mana, 5/7 instead of 7/6 is a better stat spread IMO, and I don't see Mech-Bear-Cat getting more than 2 spare parts on average. Of course, Toshley is legendary though...

Mogor: He's funny. I don't know if he's good or not, but you don't run Mogor the Ogre for that reason. I'm trying to decide whether Mogor helps vs hurts you if you have few big minions vs lots of small minions. If you miss, you might kill a 1/1 with your big dude, but the other player will also have a lot of misses that run into your big guys. It's hard to call...

I think most people are replacing Cairne with Sneed's, but Piloted Sky Golem is also OK. Most ramps already have TBK and Sylvanas at 6 mana I think, so Sneed's being more isn't a huge deal. Sneed's doesn't die to BGH and trades with belchers and 5/5's, they are all weak to silence of course. Toshley is the better option if you want the spare parts for whatever reason.

I already run Sneed and don't have Slyvanas or TBK.  Basically I'm just looking for a good value minion that might be better than Cairne, which often feels underwhelming.

I also still run a Chillwind Yeti and a Sen'jin, which I'd replace but I'm not sure with what...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on January 26, 2015, 10:39:32 pm
If you're not playing a mech deck, boulderfist ogre is better than mech bear cat. Also, you should craft sylvanas.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Twistedarcher on January 27, 2015, 01:12:53 pm
Undertaker nerfs. This is a big change for the two most popular aggro decks, I think. Now it only gains +1 attack, not +1 attack / +1 health

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/15700587539
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on January 27, 2015, 01:14:50 pm
Undertaker nerfs. This is a HUGE change for the two most popular aggro decks. Now it only gains +1 attack, not +1 attack / +1 health

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/15700587539

This is really big. This will have a huge effect on almost every aggro deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Twistedarcher on January 27, 2015, 01:20:26 pm
Yeah. I'm actually a bit sad to see the change -- I felt like I could handle the aggro decks better than the control decks, and I was generally happy to play hunter. I assume we'll be seeing more control decks on the ladder now (more handlock...yay)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on January 27, 2015, 01:31:37 pm
I think a better nerf might have been to change it to a 1/1 or a 0/2. But I think the nerf is ok.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on January 27, 2015, 01:39:22 pm
Yeah, I think it's good because you wouldn't really consider making an aggro deck without Undertaker, but it makes them a lot harder to play now. I think I'll probably be switching to Mech Mage over Jeeves Mage and Hunter (which both get a lot of power from Undertakers).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on January 27, 2015, 02:17:16 pm
That sucks. I guess just too many people playing Undertaker Hunter... I don't know if Undertaker was the problem (I'm looking at you Mad Scientist), but maybe this makes ladder less Huntery?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Dekryr on January 27, 2015, 07:10:47 pm
That sucks. I guess just too many people playing Undertaker Hunter... I don't know if Undertaker was the problem (I'm looking at you Mad Scientist), but maybe this makes ladder less Huntery?

Not to straddle the fence, but I think both were/are a problem. Every agro deck is using undertaker and it almost always trades up. At least now it can be dealt with with other 1 drops. Losing games because you can't deal with a 1-drop, which will just keep growing out of range is really bad and poor design. It needed a change, not sure if this is the right one but at least it's something.

Mad Scientist is probably a more powerful card than undertaker, but it's only really viable in 2 classes at the moment, so it will take a long time for Blizz to figure out it's broken. But that card is ridiculously good. If you aren't putting Scientist in your Mage or Hunter decks, you better have a really, really good reason.

Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on January 27, 2015, 08:21:11 pm
Scientist>> Undertaker, for sure.  I don't know how much of Scientists' power Blizzard is aware of, since they sometimes seem to be ok with autoincludes in their design. 
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on January 27, 2015, 08:42:30 pm
One drop design is this interesting thing.  It's really awkward to design them right.  The thing is that in the agnostic game "mana efficiency game" the abstract concept of, what if i built a deck with 1s, 2s, 3s, etc, how would I maximize my chance of spending all my mana every turn with minimal use of hero power to do that, in that minigame, one drops blow.  They blow at that in Magic too, and they blow even harder in Hearthstone.  So if you want to entice people to actually play one drops, you either need to give them the busted warlock hero power, where the mana efficiency game is trivially easy using any deck and just activating hero power the appropriate amount of times, or you need to hand out one drops that give so much meaning to being 1 pt. ahead on your mana efficiency early on that they are insane.  Which means you basically need to make them as powerful as two drops, but then print 1 on their mana cost and pretend its ok.  It's a lot easier to get away with that if it's Mana Wyrm and class restricted.  Anything neutral is gonna become pervasive.

You really don't need turn 1 one mana creatures to make a good card game, even though Blizzard seems to think so.  Playable one drops are inherently swingy since they provide you some tempo in the first three turns, but do nothing if you draw them later on.  If they're not in your opening hand, they don't offer anything to the mana efficiency minigame.  1 drops like Earth shock and abusive sarge are different, of course, those are good.

I've watched zoo mirrors in modern in mtg, which revolves around 2 mana quality 1 drops duking it out.  I haven't ever found it particularly fascinating.

I think it'd be a good plan to keep all neutral 1 drop turn one plays at about leper gnome power level where only warlock is interested in them, and let the other eight classes design strategies around turns 2-10 instead of printing stuff like undertaker that forces people to play that one drop just because it's a 2 drop.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on January 27, 2015, 09:24:21 pm
Hey cool, now I can comfortably skip Holy Smite type cards. I'm just wondering what will happen to Zombie Chow. Without T1 undertaker, I predict current aggro decks are going to be smacked around by Chow quite a bit.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on January 27, 2015, 10:35:10 pm
Hey cool, now I can comfortably skip Holy Smite type cards. I'm just wondering what will happen to Zombie Chow. Without T1 undertaker, I predict current aggro decks are going to be smacked around by Chow quite a bit.

I'm not sure it follows that you skip Holy Smite. Until they have a better alternative, aggro decks will probably still run Undertaker anyways.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on January 27, 2015, 11:25:43 pm
Hey cool, now I can comfortably skip Holy Smite type cards. I'm just wondering what will happen to Zombie Chow. Without T1 undertaker, I predict current aggro decks are going to be smacked around by Chow quite a bit.

I'm not sure it follows that you skip Holy Smite. Until they have a better alternative, aggro decks will probably still run Undertaker anyways.
With the change, 1/3's like Northshire and Mana Wyrm are much better equipped to deal with Undertaker. Without the health buff, Undertaker can be swepped by AoE like the rest of the early aggro cast. It's no longer disastrous to not to kill Undertaker turn 1 or 2.

Overall, the change makes Undertaker more in line with Cogmaster. That makes sense.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on January 28, 2015, 12:28:11 am
One drop design is this interesting thing.  It's really awkward to design them right.  The thing is that in the agnostic game "mana efficiency game" the abstract concept of, what if i built a deck with 1s, 2s, 3s, etc, how would I maximize my chance of spending all my mana every turn with minimal use of hero power to do that, in that minigame, one drops blow.  They blow at that in Magic too, and they blow even harder in Hearthstone.  So if you want to entice people to actually play one drops, you either need to give them the busted warlock hero power, where the mana efficiency game is trivially easy using any deck and just activating hero power the appropriate amount of times, or you need to hand out one drops that give so much meaning to being 1 pt. ahead on your mana efficiency early on that they are insane.  Which means you basically need to make them as powerful as two drops, but then print 1 on their mana cost and pretend its ok.  It's a lot easier to get away with that if it's Mana Wyrm and class restricted.  Anything neutral is gonna become pervasive.

You really don't need turn 1 one mana creatures to make a good card game, even though Blizzard seems to think so.  Playable one drops are inherently swingy since they provide you some tempo in the first three turns, but do nothing if you draw them later on.  If they're not in your opening hand, they don't offer anything to the mana efficiency minigame.  1 drops like Earth shock and abusive sarge are different, of course, those are good.

I've watched zoo mirrors in modern in mtg, which revolves around 2 mana quality 1 drops duking it out.  I haven't ever found it particularly fascinating.

I think it'd be a good plan to keep all neutral 1 drop turn one plays at about leper gnome power level where only warlock is interested in them, and let the other eight classes design strategies around turns 2-10 instead of printing stuff like undertaker that forces people to play that one drop just because it's a 2 drop.

I don't think undertaker is currently that pervasive. It's in the best hunter deck, and the second best warlock deck (which plays tons of 1-drops anyway). Then there's decks that try to squeeze the deathrattle theme with the mech theme thanks to the good deathrattle mechs, none of which are particularly spectacular. And there's undertaker priest which I guess a couple of people play... Zombie chow is similarly popular because it's actually the value of a 2-drop.

Anyway, I like undertaker because I like things that threaten to grow or make other things grow, because that messes with the calculus of what is worth killing. Do I coin my dark bomb or play zombie chow? Depends on how likely he is to have 2 1 mana deathrattle minions. I do get that it's too strong for a 1 drop though. If your opponent gets 2 early, there's almost nothing you can do. That makes it swingy. I don't think it's useless late game though since it can still grow, so it's not really swingy in the way you describe. Zombie chow is swingy in that way.

All in all it seems your arguments suggest zombie chow is a problem card. But I guess it escapes because it's a 1 drop that's not good for aggro, so those swings don't end the game as quickly...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on January 28, 2015, 04:28:46 pm
One drop design is this interesting thing.  It's really awkward to design them right.  The thing is that in the agnostic game "mana efficiency game" the abstract concept of, what if i built a deck with 1s, 2s, 3s, etc, how would I maximize my chance of spending all my mana every turn with minimal use of hero power to do that, in that minigame, one drops blow.  They blow at that in Magic too, and they blow even harder in Hearthstone.  So if you want to entice people to actually play one drops, you either need to give them the busted warlock hero power, where the mana efficiency game is trivially easy using any deck and just activating hero power the appropriate amount of times, or you need to hand out one drops that give so much meaning to being 1 pt. ahead on your mana efficiency early on that they are insane.  Which means you basically need to make them as powerful as two drops, but then print 1 on their mana cost and pretend its ok.  It's a lot easier to get away with that if it's Mana Wyrm and class restricted.  Anything neutral is gonna become pervasive.

You really don't need turn 1 one mana creatures to make a good card game, even though Blizzard seems to think so.  Playable one drops are inherently swingy since they provide you some tempo in the first three turns, but do nothing if you draw them later on.  If they're not in your opening hand, they don't offer anything to the mana efficiency minigame.  1 drops like Earth shock and abusive sarge are different, of course, those are good.

I've watched zoo mirrors in modern in mtg, which revolves around 2 mana quality 1 drops duking it out.  I haven't ever found it particularly fascinating.

I think it'd be a good plan to keep all neutral 1 drop turn one plays at about leper gnome power level where only warlock is interested in them, and let the other eight classes design strategies around turns 2-10 instead of printing stuff like undertaker that forces people to play that one drop just because it's a 2 drop.

I don't think undertaker is currently that pervasive. It's in the best hunter deck, and the second best warlock deck (which plays tons of 1-drops anyway). Then there's decks that try to squeeze the deathrattle theme with the mech theme thanks to the good deathrattle mechs, none of which are particularly spectacular. And there's undertaker priest which I guess a couple of people play... Zombie chow is similarly popular because it's actually the value of a 2-drop.

Anyway, I like undertaker because I like things that threaten to grow or make other things grow, because that messes with the calculus of what is worth killing. Do I coin my dark bomb or play zombie chow? Depends on how likely he is to have 2 1 mana deathrattle minions. I do get that it's too strong for a 1 drop though. If your opponent gets 2 early, there's almost nothing you can do. That makes it swingy. I don't think it's useless late game though since it can still grow, so it's not really swingy in the way you describe. Zombie chow is swingy in that way.

All in all it seems your arguments suggest zombie chow is a problem card. But I guess it escapes because it's a 1 drop that's not good for aggro, so those swings don't end the game as quickly...

Zombie Chow is a pretty crazy card.  But undertaker is, I'm 1 pt. ahead on the mana efficiency game, and now I'm melting your face before I run out of cards in hand and start failing at it.  Zombie chow is, I'm 1 pt. ahead on the mana efficiency game, but I'm gonna make us play it longer so that I have a chance to start failing at it.  So only Warlock is really able to use it in a compelling way, and it's probably only going to show up in control decks with really good draw mechanics otherwise.  Priest has pretty decent draw and can draw even better when it has 2/3s bopping around so that's another one. 

If Zombie Chow's mechanic showed up on a card that put more value in hand like Pit Lord it would be way stronger.  What keeps Zombie Chow within reason is that a control deck isn't excluding Crocolisk because Crocolisk isn't worth 2 mana, a control deck is excluding Crocolisk because Crocolisk isn't worth a card.

I think the undertaker nerf is offputting because DBoom is definitely stronger and midrange and control feel like they need more of a look, but I do think undertaker was probably not great for the long term health of the game.  Playing Frostbolt on a 1/2, and feeling like that was definitely the correct play, and feeling like it was correct, within the meta, for my deck's gameplan with respect to undertaker to be to trade down, was a tipoff that made me feel like something's the matter with that fellow.  It's bad when cards have a "beat the rest of the deck" feel to them like that, where it's optimal to design your deck to just take a bad trade with a card when you see it and then try to make good trades with the other stuff that's in there. Most classes didn't have a good trade available.

Maybe if we're lucky we will see some deck that is held back by the strength of undertaker come out and shake up the meta.  I for one am excited to play my Mech priest more, since I have unexpectedly good results with it, and it doesn't use undertaker or undertaker hate.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on January 29, 2015, 05:20:06 pm
Anyone else start prototyping new aggro decks without Undertaker? It's kinda fun because you don't have to worry about being out aggroed by Undertaker anymore.

I'm trying a sort of Rogue JeevesMech thing that I had good results with this morning. It's gone through a few iterations, but I'm trying different things out right now to try and get the balance to feel right. It makes me really wish I had Thalnos for the Fan of Knives combo though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on January 29, 2015, 06:54:21 pm
Yeah I don't think aggro is gone. There are aggro decks that lost to the hunter aggro decks, but still were fine against the control decks, mainly things like Rogue aggro. I think these decks will replace the aggro slot in ranked.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on January 29, 2015, 06:55:38 pm
I'm trying out the Rogue Mech Tempo deck, which is sort of aggro?

It relies on mechs to fill the board while your weapons take out opponent minions.  It's kind of fun.  I decided to try it since I have two Cogmaster's Wrenches.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on January 30, 2015, 02:11:14 am
I think rogue aggro is still going to get terrible empty hand syndrome like crazy.  That deck died along with Novice Engineer's extra point of toughness, to me.  Well HME built something pretty good using Jeeves, which really makes a whole ton of sense as a place to turn, but then I suspect it might be a slightly weaker version of Jeeves Mage.

Shaman aggro excites me a lot more. 
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on January 30, 2015, 01:09:18 pm
I think rogue aggro is still going to get terrible empty hand syndrome like crazy.  That deck died along with Novice Engineer's extra point of toughness, to me.  Well HME built something pretty good using Jeeves, which really makes a whole ton of sense as a place to turn, but then I suspect it might be a slightly weaker version of Jeeves Mage.

Shaman aggro excites me a lot more.

I think Jeeves Rogue is probably better than Jeeves Mage, but I don't think either is particularly strong. Having a slightly higher curve into Azure Drakes seems more reliable and not that much worse for getting on top of the tempo. The problem is that sometimes you don't draw Jeeves and you're screwed, so you at least need Loots or Shivs or Acolytes, but then you might as well just run bigger stuff and draw later. I don't know, may Coldlight Oracle works? The only aggro class that can happily not have cards to play is Hunter, because the hero power is the best dump of 2 mana. I think Aggro Hunter is still going to be the best pure aggro deck, but just weaker than it was previously.

I think the big winner in the Undertaker nerf is midrange Paladin. Now Minibot, Muster, Consecration, and Truesilver deal with any early game push quite nicely.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on February 04, 2015, 02:55:39 am
Fatigue Mage is a pretty fun deck to play. I got a little bored of this game because on a lot of turns you don't need to think very much about your play, but this deck makes every turn hard.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on February 04, 2015, 11:10:50 am
Fatigue Mage is a pretty fun deck to play. I got a little bored of this game because on a lot of turns you don't need to think very much about your play, but this deck makes every turn hard.

yeah, this and the fatigue druid deck with poison seeds are both a lot of fun to play.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on February 06, 2015, 01:30:11 pm
So I opened both my 3rd iron juggernaut but also Gazlow. Obviously he's not good enough currently, but has anyone tried him out yet. I think I'll make a gazlow deck tonight for fun.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on February 06, 2015, 01:49:35 pm
I actually crafted Gazlowe because I thought it would be fun, but I didn't find it that compelling. I was trying a Mech priest, since you like the extra Mechs with the Upgraded Repairbot, and you have a fair number of good 1 mana cost spells. Anyway, I wish I had my dust back to make an actual good card like Sneed's.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on February 06, 2015, 02:42:41 pm
I actually crafted Gazlowe because I thought it would be fun, but I didn't find it that compelling. I was trying a Mech priest, since you like the extra Mechs with the Upgraded Repairbot, and you have a fair number of good 1 mana cost spells. Anyway, I wish I had my dust back to make an actual good card like Sneed's.

I've been toying around with a Mech Priest deck that I call Magpie Mech that I decided to build because I played like 6 mech decks in a row once.

Basically it's a Mech Priest deck with all the steal card stuff (Thought Steal, Mind Vision, Cabal (well I don't actually have one, but I would put it in here)). The idea being that Mech decks are so common now that stealing Mech cards give you even more synergies than other classes decks can have. Aside from that you just try to play like a normal Mech deck, but I enjoy planning what to steal. It's a deck that exclusively works in this meta, but is fun to play right now.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on February 06, 2015, 03:01:44 pm
I would not make it a mech focused deck. You make it a normal deck that uses Gazlow to "draw" a lot of cards. A priest Gazlow deck for sure would not be mech based simply because priest doesn't have enoughech synergy.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on February 06, 2015, 03:42:00 pm
The thing is you want Tinkertown and Mech Yeti to get spare parts to draw into more mechs. And you want to dump a lot of cards quickly. Heavy draw cards are good if you expend all your cards winning the board, and then use the draw to refill while you still have the board pressure. A "normal" Priest deck won't make good use of the draw.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on February 06, 2015, 04:14:07 pm
I don't see why you can't use Gazlow as a value card though. You keep your hand size up, even if you use cheap spells.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on February 06, 2015, 04:22:19 pm
I don't see why you can't use Gazlow as a value card though. You keep your hand size up, even if you use cheap spells.
If you want to play a card that can make you never feel worried about your hand being empty again, Ysera seems better.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on February 06, 2015, 06:29:49 pm
I don't see why you can't use Gazlow as a value card though. You keep your hand size up, even if you use cheap spells.
If you want to play a card that can make you never feel worried about your hand being empty again, Ysera seems better.

I'm clearly not going for better, I'm going for fun to try Gazlowe.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on February 07, 2015, 07:23:32 am
Controlock

There, I said it. I'm having success with a deck that focuses on early removal until I can get out Malganis and pit lord and other buffed demons with draw that suffers no damage. It is by no means perfect but I tend towards 3 and 4 game win streaks with just 1 or 2 losses in between.

Haven't been facelessed yet but Mage tends to eat up the plan pretty well unless they are running mechs where the early removal just wrecks them. Also Rogues do well against it since their deck focus is not about establishing early board presence. Shamans all die to this.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on February 07, 2015, 11:57:52 am
It's not that Mal Ghanis is bad, or that demon deck don't work, it's that they are simply worse than standard Handlock decks. Your matchups are either the same as with handlock or worse.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on February 07, 2015, 12:03:30 pm
Agreed. Thing is the only giants I have are molten. This deck all came from packs and is quite useful for getting the 60 gold dailies with Warlock.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on February 07, 2015, 08:21:24 pm
I remember someone talking about this awhile ago. I just opened Trade Prince Gally and was wondering if anyone had found a good way to slot him into a Rogue deck (or if Control Rogue is just too weak and no one plays it because no one wants to lose all the time).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: EgorK on February 07, 2015, 09:02:53 pm
I remember someone talking about this awhile ago. I just opened Trade Prince Gally and was wondering if anyone had found a good way to slot him into a Rogue deck (or if Control Rogue is just too weak and no one plays it because no one wants to lose all the time).

I think he is in almost all rogue decks out there
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on February 07, 2015, 09:17:51 pm
Magicamy's tier list (https://tempostorm.com/articles/the-meta-snapshot-5-magicamys-gvg-ladder-tier-list) is a good reference. She lists four Rogue decks there (Oil Rogue, Tempo Rogue, Mech Rogue, Pirates Rogue). Of those, only the Tempo Rogue runs Gallywix.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on February 07, 2015, 09:50:09 pm
Magicamy's tier list (https://tempostorm.com/articles/the-meta-snapshot-5-magicamys-gvg-ladder-tier-list) is a good reference. She lists four Rogue decks there (Oil Rogue, Tempo Rogue, Mech Rogue, Pirates Rogue). Of those, only the Tempo Rogue runs Gallywix.

This is actually a pretty nice list.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: EgorK on February 08, 2015, 05:40:08 pm
Thanks for the list. Oil rogue works like a charm for the time being, despite my previous bad experience with this class
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on February 08, 2015, 06:46:40 pm
Yeah, thanks for linking the list! I imagine this kind of thing is a nightmare to assemble and maintain, so you have to take everything in it with a pretty sizeable helping of salt, but it's nice to at least have some sort of base reference.

Regarding Gallywix, I think he's fine is 6 is a normal part of your curve, which it shouldn't be. You have no real chance of winning a control matchup without some sort of burst. With the death of the Leeroy+Shadowstep combo, Oil seems to offer the best chance, though I have seen some people still try to use Malygos. Either way, once you're past 5 on the mana curve, you usually want to be drawing cards, not just putting up big minions, so the only 6-drop you really see is Auctioneer (I think 1 Auctioneer and 1 Sprint is probably better than either alone).

There is another thing I'm trying, but haven't really figured out yet that uses Argent Commander and Piloted Sky Golem at 6 to just apply heavy face pressure at that point in the curve -- kind of a delayed face deck, using the good Rogue early game defense (Backstab, SI:7, Deadly Poison, Eviscerate) to transition into a face deck that is less likely to run out of steam (still has Oil). Might be terrible though. We'll see.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on February 20, 2015, 08:59:29 pm
I've just build Oil Rogue, and that deck rocks!
It is very, very strong, can comeback and/or take a win from nowhere, is surprisingly consistent and is too damn fun to play :D
New favorite.


(I don't have Edwin and Thalnos, tho, so I play without them).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on February 20, 2015, 10:07:22 pm
I'm still surprised that Oil Rogue is as consistent as it is. I have an old Miracle Rogue that I play sometimes, no Oil, Malygos + 1 Sinister Strike instead. I almost never need Malygos as a finisher, around 80% of the time I have enough damage to win without it, and I leave it in for sentimental reasons. Somehow it still wins anyways by getting board with Violet Teachers/Loatheb/SI7.

I think I underestimated just how helpful of a card Blade Flurry is, it's such a cheap way to clear board while pushing for damage.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on February 21, 2015, 11:18:04 am
Without so much aggro Oil Rogue can be a thing. Otherwise Hunters just wreck it with Hunter hero power really hurting Rogues.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on February 21, 2015, 05:16:02 pm
(I don't have Edwin and Thalnos, tho, so I play without them).

What do you sub for them? They're the only cards I don't have, but I wasn't sure what to replace them with, when I was considering an Oil Rogue deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on February 21, 2015, 05:26:36 pm
(I don't have Edwin and Thalnos, tho, so I play without them).

What do you sub for them? They're the only cards I don't have, but I wasn't sure what to replace them with, when I was considering an Oil Rogue deck.

Kobold Geomancer replacing Thalnos for sure. The cheap spell damage is surprisingly important.

I don't think there's a great replacement for Edwin...you can try Southsea Deckhand? It lets you combo off Oil nicely.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on February 21, 2015, 08:02:24 pm
(I don't have Edwin and Thalnos, tho, so I play without them).

What do you sub for them? They're the only cards I don't have, but I wasn't sure what to replace them with, when I was considering an Oil Rogue deck.

Kobold instead of Thalnos.

I do not have exact replacement for Edwin, cuz I didn't copy any list 1-for-1. I do play 1 Deckhand, most lists do. In the "free" slots (ones that differ in different lists), I play Loatheb, Shredder, 2x Farseers, 2 Sprints, and no Dr. Boom (I have him, but I cut him) nor Shiv. Also no Healbot or any weapons.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on February 21, 2015, 08:04:52 pm
Might be easier to just post my list (I tweak it a bit if needed):

2 Backstab
2 Prep
2 Deadly Poison
1 Deckhand
2 Blade Flurry
2 Eviscerate
2 Sap
1 Kobold
2 Fan of Knives
2 Earthen Ring
2 SI7
2 Oils
1 Shredder
2 Techer
1 Azure Drake
1 Loatheb
2 Sprint
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on February 21, 2015, 08:08:20 pm
I occasionally play Handlock, Control Pally and Control Priest, but my main currently is Druid combo, and I'd like to share my list, it worked pretty good this month:

2 Inervate
2 Wild Growth
2 Wrath
2 Haunter Creeper
2 Savage Roar
1 BGH
1 Harvest Golem
2 Swipe
2 Keeper of the Grove
1 Kezan Mystic (those pesky mages/hunters..)
2 Piloted Shredder
2 Druid of the Claw
2 Sludge Blecher
2 Force of Nature
1 Carine Bloodhoof
1 Sylvanas
2 Ancient of Lore
1 Dr. Boom




Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on February 21, 2015, 08:49:18 pm
Here is the decklist that Kolento hit #1 EU with on Feb 8. It does not run Edwin. I dunno whether it's still good in the current meta because things are unstable still.
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/191887-legend-1-kolentos-rogue
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on February 21, 2015, 09:15:37 pm
Yeah, I basically play that -Shade of Naxx +Shredder.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on February 22, 2015, 07:54:58 pm
I think I underestimated just how helpful of a card Blade Flurry is, it's such a cheap way to clear board while pushing for damage.

With Oil, Blade Flurry is really good now, since you have plenty of enablers in the deck.

What surprised me is how good Violet Teacher is when you don't have to save your Preps for Auctioneer.

I think the Kolento list is the "standard" now. My friend made #1 NA with nearly that list. (Boom instead of second Sprint, and Healbot instead of second Farseer), but I think the 2x Sprint is better.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on February 24, 2015, 12:18:59 pm
On his stream yesterday, Trump reported some results of observations of the decks in NA legend this past week. Apparently he turned on a bunch of other streams and noted down the decks faced by each of his fellow streamers. There were a total of 193 games, and the classes were as follows:
Code: [Select]
hunter mid 32 17%
druid 32 17%
warrior 24 13%
mage mech 23 12%
rogue 17 9%
paladin 16 8%
shaman mid 14 7%
priest 9 5%
hunter face 7 4%
mage freeze 7 4%
handlock 6 3%
warlock demon 6 3%
So anyone trying to crack the meta this week, I guess that's what you're looking at. More than half the decks have weapons, and more than a third secrets, so Ooze/Harrison and Kezan/Flare are a real consideration (Flare also hits the Shades in Druid/Rogue).

This is somewhat in agreement with https://tempostorm.com/articles/the-meta-snapshot-7-tempostorms-gvg-ladder-tier-list , but hyped appears to severely underrate its matchups with the top decks. It's way better than 50/50 vs Rogue and 15/85 vs Hunter... I would guess at least 75/25 and 55/45 unless there's something I really don't get about midrange Hunter... I think Rogue falls a lot as a result of people switching to Warrior and Hunter to beat it.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on March 16, 2015, 11:57:46 am
Just went 7 wins in a row with this version of Face Hunter on ranked. If anyone desires to grind from 25-10 pretty quickly I'm pretty sure this deck would be a fast way to do it. This deck has potential to go quite a bit higher, as people have taken this Legendary with only slight variations (Leeroy obviously improves the deck). I can't personally confirm that as this was my first outing with it (I made it to do the 7 win quest and it did it quite impressively). The only major change I made from the norm aside from not including Leeroy was to remove an Eaglesong for a Glaivezooka.

1 x Hunter's Mark
2 x Abusive
2 x Leper
2 x Infiltrator
2 x Creeper
2 x Mad Scientist
1 x Owl
2 x Glaivezooka
2 x Knife Juggler
2 x Explosive Trap
2 x (s)Kill Command
2 x Animal Companion
2 x Arcane Golem
2 x Unleash
1 x Eaglesong
2 x Wolf Rider
1 x Reckless Rocketeer (would recommend replacing with Leeroy if you have him)

Strategy: 9 times out of 10 when you have to decide where to send a minion the answer is to go face. Occasionally you want to trade if it's something that could either outrace you in a beatdown (like a windfury minion) or gives your opponent really good trades (like something with spell power). Weapons can be used for removal and go face if they have no other target. Mulligan for Infiltrators, Knife Jugglers, Mad Scientists, Creepers and Leper Gnomes. Hold onto a Glaivezooka if you have a minion to play turn 1 (1 drop or 2 drop + coin) to pair it with.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on March 16, 2015, 12:06:49 pm
What's crazy about this deck is that it is so strong when it's so cheap to make and so easy to play. 5 rares + an optional Legendary.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Watno on March 16, 2015, 12:17:48 pm
No owls?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on March 16, 2015, 12:32:25 pm
No owls?

Oops, my mistake, I forgot the Owl. There is one. Edited in now.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on March 16, 2015, 04:50:04 pm
Just went 7 wins in a row with this version of Face Hunter on ranked. If anyone desires to grind from 25-10 pretty quickly I'm pretty sure this deck would be a fast way to do it. This deck has potential to go quite a bit higher, as people have taken this Legendary with only slight variations (Leeroy obviously improves the deck). I can't personally confirm that as this was my first outing with it (I made it to do the 7 win quest and it did it quite impressively). The only major change I made from the norm aside from not including Leeroy was to remove an Eaglesong for a Glaivezooka.

1 x Hunter's Mark
2 x Abusive
2 x Leper
2 x Infiltrator
2 x Creeper
2 x Mad Scientist
1 x Owl
2 x Glaivezooka
2 x Knife Juggler
2 x Explosive Trap
2 x (s)Kill Command
2 x Animal Companion
2 x Arcane Golem
2 x Unleash
1 x Eaglesong
2 x Wolf Rider
1 x Reckless Rocketeer (would recommend replacing with Leeroy if you have him)

Strategy: 9 times out of 10 when you have to decide where to send a minion the answer is to go face. Occasionally you want to trade if it's something that could either outrace you in a beatdown (like a windfury minion) or gives your opponent really good trades (like something with spell power). Weapons can be used for removal and go face if they have no other target. Mulligan for Infiltrators, Knife Jugglers, Mad Scientists, Creepers and Leper Gnomes. Hold onto a Glaivezooka if you have a minion to play turn 1 (1 drop or 2 drop + coin) to pair it with.

I faced this deck last night with my Ramp Druid.  He got me down to 9 life pretty fast, but my taunts just killed it (sludge benchers, 4/6 bears, etc.). He used his removal each turn, but I could just keep dropping big taunts 4 turns in a row.  I removed his minions with Hero Power, Swipe, etc.  AoL and Mech Heal ended it.

Looked fun and fast, for sure.  An owl would have helped him, but he was topdecking so early on and just not getting it.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on March 16, 2015, 05:02:19 pm
Yeah, I'm not a fan of all out aggro decks. The good aggro decks have a way to come back if they don't work perfectly. This version of hunter just loses if it can't win fast enough.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on March 16, 2015, 07:21:58 pm
Yeah, I'm not a fan of all out aggro decks. The good aggro decks have a way to come back if they don't work perfectly. This version of hunter just loses if it can't win fast enough.
But Blizzard's insipid ladder system punishes game length disproportionately, so the deck probably is really close to optimal legend climbing for early phases of the process.

Sad but true.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on March 16, 2015, 08:24:19 pm
Face Hunter is among the strongest decks at the moment, maybe even the strongest deck, although it does have counters (like Control Warrior). It's not just game length that makes it a good ladder choice.

I would certainly run 2x Eaglehorn in any version of the deck though, as it's the best card in the deck: at least 6 damage from one card, threatening 9+ with a trap, which can be split up to bash down small taunts, and all that for only 3 mana. It's certainly better than Reckless Rocketeer, which only represents 5 damage if it gets removed before attacking again, and costs a whopping 6 mana.

Example cuts I've seen are dropping 1 Animal Companion (as it's merely OK if you don't roll Huffer) or dropping 1 Infiltrator.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on March 16, 2015, 09:22:57 pm
Kolento is top 1 EU with double shadow madness recombobulator x1.  Toldja HME
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Twistedarcher on March 16, 2015, 11:16:41 pm
Just went 7 wins in a row with this version of Face Hunter on ranked. If anyone desires to grind from 25-10 pretty quickly I'm pretty sure this deck would be a fast way to do it. This deck has potential to go quite a bit higher, as people have taken this Legendary with only slight variations (Leeroy obviously improves the deck). I can't personally confirm that as this was my first outing with it (I made it to do the 7 win quest and it did it quite impressively). The only major change I made from the norm aside from not including Leeroy was to remove an Eaglesong for a Glaivezooka.

1 x Hunter's Mark
2 x Abusive
2 x Leper
2 x Infiltrator
2 x Creeper
2 x Mad Scientist
1 x Owl
2 x Glaivezooka
2 x Knife Juggler
2 x Explosive Trap
2 x (s)Kill Command
2 x Animal Companion
2 x Arcane Golem
2 x Unleash
1 x Eaglesong
2 x Wolf Rider
1 x Reckless Rocketeer (would recommend replacing with Leeroy if you have him)

Strategy: 9 times out of 10 when you have to decide where to send a minion the answer is to go face. Occasionally you want to trade if it's something that could either outrace you in a beatdown (like a windfury minion) or gives your opponent really good trades (like something with spell power). Weapons can be used for removal and go face if they have no other target. Mulligan for Infiltrators, Knife Jugglers, Mad Scientists, Creepers and Leper Gnomes. Hold onto a Glaivezooka if you have a minion to play turn 1 (1 drop or 2 drop + coin) to pair it with.

I play this deck with -1 Infiltrator, +1 Bow, and Leeroy. It does pretty well and has a lot of really good matchups -- it's so much damage, so quickly. I think it's definitely a top tier deck ATM.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 16, 2015, 11:24:56 pm
Kolento is top 1 EU with double shadow madness recombobulator x1.  Toldja HME

Kolento is often #1 with bad decks because he's #1 before he starts playing them.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Twistedarcher on March 16, 2015, 11:37:05 pm
Yeah, I'm not a fan of all out aggro decks. The good aggro decks have a way to come back if they don't work perfectly. This version of hunter just loses if it can't win fast enough.

I think this is a bit of an odd way to look at aggro decks. Aggro decks are supposed to rush the opponent down before they have a chance to stabilize, and they're supposed to lose if they can't win fast enough. The most important aspect of an aggro deck in my eyes is how often it can win fast enough, not what happens if it doesn't win fast enough -- and face hunter is very good at winning fast enough.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on March 17, 2015, 10:41:36 am
Kolento is top 1 EU with double shadow madness recombobulator x1.  Toldja HME

Kolento is often #1 with bad decks because he's #1 before he starts playing them.
uh huhhhhhh
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on March 17, 2015, 01:09:32 pm
Face Hunter is among the strongest decks at the moment, maybe even the strongest deck, although it does have counters (like Control Warrior). It's not just game length that makes it a good ladder choice.

I would certainly run 2x Eaglehorn in any version of the deck though, as it's the best card in the deck: at least 6 damage from one card, threatening 9+ with a trap, which can be split up to bash down small taunts, and all that for only 3 mana. It's certainly better than Reckless Rocketeer, which only represents 5 damage if it gets removed before attacking again, and costs a whopping 6 mana.

Example cuts I've seen are dropping 1 Animal Companion (as it's merely OK if you don't roll Huffer) or dropping 1 Infiltrator.

Cool, I swapped the Eaglehorn back in minusing the Reckless. Your math convinced me. I tried dropping an Infiltrator for a Snake Trap too, so that Mad Scientist has something to draw if Explosive is already out and to increase the chances of 9 damage Eaglehorn. I like the Animal Companions too much to cut one.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on March 17, 2015, 05:33:29 pm
Face Hunter is among the strongest decks at the moment, maybe even the strongest deck, although it does have counters (like Control Warrior). It's not just game length that makes it a good ladder choice.

I would certainly run 2x Eaglehorn in any version of the deck though, as it's the best card in the deck: at least 6 damage from one card, threatening 9+ with a trap, which can be split up to bash down small taunts, and all that for only 3 mana. It's certainly better than Reckless Rocketeer, which only represents 5 damage if it gets removed before attacking again, and costs a whopping 6 mana.

Example cuts I've seen are dropping 1 Animal Companion (as it's merely OK if you don't roll Huffer) or dropping 1 Infiltrator.

Cool, I swapped the Eaglehorn back in minusing the Reckless. Your math convinced me. I tried dropping an Infiltrator for a Snake Trap too, so that Mad Scientist has something to draw if Explosive is already out and to increase the chances of 9 damage Eaglehorn. I like the Animal Companions too much to cut one.

So I gave this a shot, as I like fast decks, and I had mixed results.

I'm running two Eaglehorns, Leeroy, and I swapped in Mukla for one of the UTHs.  My favorite win was getting Paladin down to maybe 8 life after he had mustered, then he dropped quartermaster.  Instead of going face, I traded something into the QM to get it down to 2 life and played Explosive Trap.  Then I just didn't drop any minions, going hero power only.

He knew, so he didn't attack and kept building his board instead.  But he dropped all small life minions, and I was way ahead on life, so I just kept shooting him.  Eventually he had a full board with Sludge Belcher and a bunch of other stuff, so I dropped Arcane Golem and UTH and won.

Mukla is as unimpressive as you'd imagine, and he's not useful if you don't draw him in your opening hand.  I'll swap him back out, I think.  Mad Scientist hasn't played at all for me yet.  It is fun though.  And knowing you've basically lost if it's T8 and you don't have insane pressure on your opponent is nice, since you can resign and move on.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on March 17, 2015, 07:44:21 pm
If you want another trap for Mad Scientist to trigger, I think Misdirection or Freezing might be better than Snake. I'd put the edge towards Freezing - given how short your games are, it's either hard removal because they don't have time to replay it, or you were going to lose anyways.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on March 17, 2015, 07:51:04 pm
I'll give both those traps a try. Snake has been good when I had it, but Freezing might be better.

@ash: My favourite wins with this deck are the scummiest ones. When you've completely lost the board, they have something like a Sludge Belcher, Sylvanas and a Sunwalker, you've got nothing but a Haunted Creeper in your hand, and then you top deck a Kill Command and cast everything + Hero power for the win.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on March 17, 2015, 08:56:00 pm
@ash: My favourite wins with this deck are the scummiest ones. When you've completely lost the board, they have something like a Sludge Belcher, Sylvanas and a Sunwalker, you've got nothing but a Haunted Creeper in your hand, and then you top deck a Kill Command and cast everything + Hero power for the win.

Fixed. :)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on March 18, 2015, 01:11:26 pm
@ash: My favourite wins with this deck are the scummiest ones. When you've completely lost the board, they have something like a Sludge Belcher, Sylvanas and a Sunwalker, you've got nothing but a Haunted Creeper in your hand, and then you top deck a Kill Command and cast everything + Hero power for the win.

Fixed. :)

You mean "my wins are the scummiest ones".
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on March 18, 2015, 01:18:59 pm
@ash: My favourite wins with this deck are the scummiest ones. When you've completely lost the board, they have something like a Sludge Belcher, Sylvanas and a Sunwalker, you've got nothing but a Haunted Creeper in your hand, and then you top deck a Kill Command and cast everything + Hero power for the win.

Fixed. :)

:) Obviously.

I like "scummy" wins because it usually just means your deck was well built enough to feel like you are winning unfairly. When really your deck just follows a strong strategy that the other deck doesn't deal well with. This is also why I like Tech card wins. The swing you get from successfully playing a situational card like a Kezan Mystic (or Harrison or Black Knight or BGH etc) is too good.

(Specifically playing a Mystic to steal the first Duplicate when it's the first secret feels pretty good, as you know they have more than one secret as no one runs a lone Duplicate.)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on March 18, 2015, 01:32:35 pm
This facehunter has not been pulling wowo results for me.  Anyone who randomly puts Antique Healbot in autowins, there's nonzero numbers of control warriors, and everyone has double sludge belcher.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on March 18, 2015, 05:33:17 pm
This facehunter has not been pulling wowo results for me.  Anyone who randomly puts Antique Healbot in autowins, there's nonzero numbers of control warriors, and everyone has double sludge belcher.

I usually chew right through back to back belchers without pause. I also have detroyed Paladins using healbots and multiple heal spells so I am not getting these type of results at all. So far I am getting around a 70 percent win rate.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on March 18, 2015, 05:43:18 pm
This facehunter has not been pulling wowo results for me.  Anyone who randomly puts Antique Healbot in autowins, there's nonzero numbers of control warriors, and everyone has double sludge belcher.

I usually chew right through back to back belchers without pause. I also have detroyed Paladins using healbots and multiple heal spells so I am not getting these type of results at all. So far I am getting around a 70 percent win rate.
How are you not running out of gas against a 44 health opponent( double sludge)? Are you supposed to mulligan everything that costs less than 3?

(For the record, a Paladin using healbot and heal spells is possibly easier than a Paladin just using healbot.  Both Holy Light and LoH are lower card quality than the bot imo)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on March 18, 2015, 06:45:47 pm
Rank 17 adventures:

It's turn 3, I have Zombie Chow + Ancient Watcher + Deathlord against an empty board. My opponent plays Equality + Coin + Hero Power. I play Wailing Soul.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on March 18, 2015, 06:49:37 pm
Rank 17 adventures:

It's turn 3, I have Zombie Chow + Ancient Watcher + Deathlord against an empty board. My opponent plays Equality + Coin + Hero Power. I play Wailing Soul.

Lol, I've been thinking of putting together a Wailing Soul deck that would have all of those cards. Is yours based on Firebat's Wailing Soul Druid deck?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on March 18, 2015, 07:09:50 pm
Rank 17 adventures:

It's turn 3, I have Zombie Chow + Ancient Watcher + Deathlord against an empty board. My opponent plays Equality + Coin + Hero Power. I play Wailing Soul.
lol.  I don't think Wailing Soul is the only reason his play was poor, although putting all three of those out there telegraphed it.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on March 18, 2015, 08:10:39 pm
Rank 17 adventures:

It's turn 3, I have Zombie Chow + Ancient Watcher + Deathlord against an empty board. My opponent plays Equality + Coin + Hero Power. I play Wailing Soul.

Lol, I've been thinking of putting together a Wailing Soul deck that would have all of those cards. Is yours based on Firebat's Wailing Soul Druid deck?
Nah, it's a Priest deck, though maybe Druid would be a better fit. I went with Priest because of the 0 mana Silence being an okay activator for Wild Pyro, except later I took out both of those cards. :P

I just played against a Freeze Mage, it didn't go well for her.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on March 18, 2015, 09:58:54 pm
This facehunter has not been pulling wowo results for me.  Anyone who randomly puts Antique Healbot in autowins, there's nonzero numbers of control warriors, and everyone has double sludge belcher.

I usually chew right through back to back belchers without pause. I also have detroyed Paladins using healbots and multiple heal spells so I am not getting these type of results at all. So far I am getting around a 70 percent win rate.
How are you not running out of gas against a 44 health opponent( double sludge)? Are you supposed to mulligan everything that costs less than 3?

(For the record, a Paladin using healbot and heal spells is possibly easier than a Paladin just using healbot.  Both Holy Light and LoH are lower card quality than the bot imo)

Just played 11 games in 30 minutes. I lost 2. One was bad draw the other was better aggro than me.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on March 19, 2015, 06:45:11 am
Took my "Tard Face" deck from rank 20 to 10 before finding resistance. Still won 4 of 6 games this morning but the meta is clearly different up here. Also running into this exact same deck more frequently.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on March 19, 2015, 10:02:40 am
Took my "Tard Face" deck from rank 20 to 10 before finding resistance. Still won 4 of 6 games this morning but the meta is clearly different up here. Also running into this exact same deck more frequently.

And then I just lost 10 games in a row, 3 of them were the same deck I was running. 2 of those I had the opponent down to 1 health.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on March 19, 2015, 08:38:30 pm
omg, I just beat a control warrior with this thing.  How can anyone be that bad at control warrior?

EDIT: Kezan mystic meta how do i even deal
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on March 19, 2015, 10:41:25 pm
omg, I just beat a control warrior with this thing.  How can anyone be that bad at control warrior?

EDIT: Kezan mystic meta how do i even deal

Kezan is almost an instant wins vs hunter. Or at least makes the odds highly into favour when I play my warrior deck
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on March 20, 2015, 12:47:41 pm
omg, I just beat a control warrior with this thing.  How can anyone be that bad at control warrior?

EDIT: Kezan mystic meta how do i even deal

Kezan is almost an instant wins vs hunter. Or at least makes the odds highly into favour when I play my warrior deck
Warrior is such a natural counter to hunter that any card that is any sort of tech at all should be instant win, you were on the verge of victory before anyone drew any cards.  Antique Healbot, the second Whirlwind, or just an ooze or Harrison should secure the same wins without blowing up your other matchups as much as a 4 mana 4/3
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: shraeye on March 21, 2015, 10:58:10 pm
I like "scummy" wins

Vote: Jorbles
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on April 01, 2015, 07:17:11 pm
There's really no Control Hunter, right?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on April 01, 2015, 07:42:27 pm
There's really no Control Hunter, right?

The closest is probably Midrange Hunter. The controlliest Midrangers might run big things like Boom, Sludge Belcher, Highmane, Shredders and Loatheb, but still tends to get wins off of strong starts and hitting the face. They just have some sticky bulky cards to rely on in the mid-to-late game.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on April 01, 2015, 07:59:37 pm
There's really no Control Hunter, right?

The closest is probably Midrange Hunter. The controlliest Midrangers might run big things like Boom, Sludge Belcher, Highmane, Shredders and Loatheb, but still tends to get wins off of strong starts and hitting the face. They just have some sticky bulky cards to rely on in the mid-to-late game.

I was trying to come up with something that relied on early spells and taunts to make it to the end game...something with 2x Hunter's Mark, some of the direct damage spells, two Snipers to use hero power on minions, freezing traps...

The payoff ends up being Boom, Highmanes, and Godzilla or Krush, which doesn't feel like enough to win.

Something like these for early control:

2x Hunter's Mark
2x Annoy-o-Tron
2x Freezing Trap
2x Steamwheedle Sniper
2x Eaglehorn Bow

Middle control:
2x Houndmaster
2x 2/7 turtle guy
2x Senjin or something
2x King of Beasts
2x Sludge Belchers

Big guns:
2x Highmane
1x Boom
1x Godzilla

And then mixing in the damage spells for removal (random minion death or explosive shot or more traps?).  I just don't think it works.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on April 01, 2015, 08:29:03 pm
I think what you've labelled as your early control is mostly mid-to-late control. Hunter's Marks need another damage source to finish something off. Steamwheedle Snipers usually get killed before you can use the power if you play them before turn 4, Annoy o Trons can only remove things when combined with Hunter's Marks or when up against Face Hunter. Freezing Trap works early, but it also works late. Ditto for Hunter's Mark. I'd expect early control to look more like Arcane Shot, Explosive Trap, that new Hunter version of Dark Bomb whenever it gets released, Glaivezooka, and Eaglehorn. Probably Mad Scientist to dig for free Traps while trading to remove something. Probably need Animal Companions too, they're really too good not to include in any Hunter variant and you definitely need more beast synergy if you want to run KoB and Houndmaster.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on April 01, 2015, 09:05:12 pm
I think what you've labelled as your early control is mostly mid-to-late control. Hunter's Marks need another damage source to finish something off. Steamwheedle Snipers usually get killed before you can use the power if you play them before turn 4, Annoy o Trons can only remove things when combined with Hunter's Marks or when up against Face Hunter. Freezing Trap works early, but it also works late. Ditto for Hunter's Mark. I'd expect early control to look more like Arcane Shot, Explosive Trap, that new Hunter version of Dark Bomb whenever it gets released, Glaivezooka, and Eaglehorn. Probably Mad Scientist to dig for free Traps while trading to remove something. Probably need Animal Companions too, they're really too good not to include in any Hunter variant and you definitely need more beast synergy if you want to run KoB and Houndmaster.

The problem I'm seeing is that a lot of beasts suck as control (and work as aggro).  I mean, at the 1 and 2 mana level, there's not a lot to choose from -- basically just Croc, right?  Everything else has 1 health.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on April 01, 2015, 09:07:05 pm
Could just be I'm mislabeling the deck -- I'm talking about a deck that stalls its opponent by having lots of answers to minions (removal, taunts) while keeping myself alive until the big guns come out.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 02, 2015, 11:26:42 am
Annoy-o-tron and Freezing trap are not control cards. They are tempo cards. They don't actually kill anything. That said, you probably can't play real heavy control (where you run your opponent out of cards), so you may want Freezing traps anyway.
You probably want Wild Pyromancer. It has a good combo with Hunter's Mark, and with Gahzrilla. And you probably want Tracking too...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on April 02, 2015, 02:37:46 pm
I think what you've labelled as your early control is mostly mid-to-late control. Hunter's Marks need another damage source to finish something off. Steamwheedle Snipers usually get killed before you can use the power if you play them before turn 4, Annoy o Trons can only remove things when combined with Hunter's Marks or when up against Face Hunter. Freezing Trap works early, but it also works late. Ditto for Hunter's Mark. I'd expect early control to look more like Arcane Shot, Explosive Trap, that new Hunter version of Dark Bomb whenever it gets released, Glaivezooka, and Eaglehorn. Probably Mad Scientist to dig for free Traps while trading to remove something. Probably need Animal Companions too, they're really too good not to include in any Hunter variant and you definitely need more beast synergy if you want to run KoB and Houndmaster.

The problem I'm seeing is that a lot of beasts suck as control (and work as aggro).  I mean, at the 1 and 2 mana level, there's not a lot to choose from -- basically just Croc, right?  Everything else has 1 health.
Bloodfen Raptor, Haunted Creeper, Dire Wolf: Alpha, Scavenging Hyena, and Hungry Crab all have 2 health, though the wisdom of putting each of those in a control deck varies.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on April 04, 2015, 04:39:35 am
Annoy-o-tron and Freezing trap are not control cards. They are tempo cards. They don't actually kill anything. That said, you probably can't play real heavy control (where you run your opponent out of cards), so you may want Freezing traps anyway.
You probably want Wild Pyromancer. It has a good combo with Hunter's Mark, and with Gahzrilla. And you probably want Tracking too...

What's the difference between tempo and control (and mid-range)?

Doesn't Control control the tempo of the game until they can win with the big bashers late?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on April 04, 2015, 05:43:02 am
Annoy-o-tron and Freezing trap are not control cards. They are tempo cards. They don't actually kill anything. That said, you probably can't play real heavy control (where you run your opponent out of cards), so you may want Freezing traps anyway.
You probably want Wild Pyromancer. It has a good combo with Hunter's Mark, and with Gahzrilla. And you probably want Tracking too...

What's the difference between tempo and control (and mid-range)?

Doesn't Control control the tempo of the game until they can win with the big bashers late?

I've understood that Control wins through card advantage, while Tempo wins through tempo advantage. At least that's how it is in MtG. It's a bit different in Hearthstone though since tempo advantage results in card advantage.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on April 04, 2015, 06:08:39 am
Annoy-o-tron and Freezing trap are not control cards. They are tempo cards. They don't actually kill anything. That said, you probably can't play real heavy control (where you run your opponent out of cards), so you may want Freezing traps anyway.
You probably want Wild Pyromancer. It has a good combo with Hunter's Mark, and with Gahzrilla. And you probably want Tracking too...

What's the difference between tempo and control (and mid-range)?

Doesn't Control control the tempo of the game until they can win with the big bashers late?

I've understood that Control wins through card advantage, while Tempo wins through tempo advantage. At least that's how it is in MtG. It's a bit different in Hearthstone though since tempo advantage results in card advantage.

Hmmm....so is my "control" warrior not really control?  Cheap minions and spells give me armor/trade for enemy minions.  In the middle it's bodies like sludge and maiden.  I eventually win with big baddies like Boom/Alex, etc.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on April 04, 2015, 10:06:06 am
Just opened Mogor. Does anyone run it?

Also, have the dust to craft a Legendary (or epics).  Suggestions?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on April 04, 2015, 12:18:49 pm
Just opened Mogor. Does anyone run it?

Also, have the dust to craft a Legendary (or epics).  Suggestions?

Motor was tried but is ultimately too unpredictable. If also wait on crafting too see if the meta gets slower and then maybe craft some dragons or slower Legendaries.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on April 04, 2015, 02:27:09 pm
Annoy-o-tron and Freezing trap are not control cards. They are tempo cards. They don't actually kill anything. That said, you probably can't play real heavy control (where you run your opponent out of cards), so you may want Freezing traps anyway.
You probably want Wild Pyromancer. It has a good combo with Hunter's Mark, and with Gahzrilla. And you probably want Tracking too...

What's the difference between tempo and control (and mid-range)?

Doesn't Control control the tempo of the game until they can win with the big bashers late?

I've understood that Control wins through card advantage, while Tempo wins through tempo advantage. At least that's how it is in MtG. It's a bit different in Hearthstone though since tempo advantage results in card advantage.

Hmmm....so is my "control" warrior not really control?  Cheap minions and spells give me armor/trade for enemy minions.  In the middle it's bodies like sludge and maiden.  I eventually win with big baddies like Boom/Alex, etc.
When you win, how many cards does your opponents have in hand?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on April 04, 2015, 03:46:38 pm
In some matchups and situations, Control Warrior wins by Grom combo, sometimes by playing Alexstrasza first. It's a bit different from Control Priest, Control Paladin, and GvG-era Handlocks in that way, since those decks don't have access to the same burst. Although all constructed control decks I'm aware of do want card advantage in control mirrors, I don't know of a deck that is quite as focused on card advantage as a typical arena deck. In arena, forcing your opponent into top-decking mode before you is a pretty common way to win.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on April 04, 2015, 08:54:47 pm
What's the best class for a randomness fun deck?  I'm assuming Rogue, with Ogre Ninja?

I was just thinking of putting together all the RNG cards (bombers, 50% chance of attacking wrong, etc.) together for giggles.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on April 05, 2015, 12:15:26 am
What's the best class for a randomness fun deck?  I'm assuming Rogue, with Ogre Ninja?

I was just thinking of putting together all the RNG cards (bombers, 50% chance of attacking wrong, etc.) together for giggles.
Depends what kind of randomness you want.  Keep in mind that the biggest positive outlier random outcome is undoubtedly Holy Wrathing Molten Giant .
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on April 05, 2015, 01:47:34 pm
Just opened Mogor. Does anyone run it?

Also, have the dust to craft a Legendary (or epics).  Suggestions?

I run it, but mostly because he's funny. I just put him in, in deck where I want big things, but don't have better things. He actually has a lot of defensive value, that isn't immediately apparent. 50% of attacks missing can screw your opponents chance at lethal over. That said he'll screw you up equally and BGH blows him up.

I do have a Rogue Control deck centred around Ogres (Brute, Ninja, Mogor) and Troggs (Burly Rockjaw, Troggzor) that I run him in for thematic purposes. I call it Thuglife and it is mostly about having big bodies to absorb spell damage and things that get advantage from your opponent relying on spells (Faerie Dragon, Troggs, Trade Prince Gallywick).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on April 05, 2015, 07:07:01 pm
Ive gotten the most out of Grim Patron that anyone ever will. It included a huge frothing beserker, a warsong commander, Grim Patrons taking out Dr. Boom and Boom Bots, and a Battle Rage that drew 6 cards. All in 1 turn. So I think I'm done with Grim Patron for a while now as all situations with it now will be underwhelming.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on April 06, 2015, 12:35:02 pm
I will repeat that I speculate the best home for Mogor the Ogre to be Aggro Warrior, in place of (and in role of) Spellbreaker's position.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on April 06, 2015, 03:00:41 pm
I think he might actually be best in Wailing Soul Druid where you can use him to disrupt your opponents attacks and then Silence him to get a reliable attack off if he survives a turn (he often does just because opponents can't reliably attack him).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on April 07, 2015, 08:39:54 am
Ive gotten the most out of Grim Patron that anyone ever will. It included a huge frothing beserker, a warsong commander, Grim Patrons taking out Dr. Boom and Boom Bots, and a Battle Rage that drew 6 cards. All in 1 turn. So I think I'm done with Grim Patron for a while now as all situations with it now will be underwhelming.

I trust you have not actually given up so soon. I am consistently getting overwhelming wins with a Grim Patron, Warsong, Berserker and enabling spells deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on April 07, 2015, 09:06:41 am
Ive gotten the most out of Grim Patron that anyone ever will. It included a huge frothing beserker, a warsong commander, Grim Patrons taking out Dr. Boom and Boom Bots, and a Battle Rage that drew 6 cards. All in 1 turn. So I think I'm done with Grim Patron for a while now as all situations with it now will be underwhelming.

I trust you have not actually given up so soon. I am consistently getting overwhelming wins with a Grim Patron, Warsong, Berserker and enabling spells deck.

I have not given up. I've been tinkering with different decks and I am also coming out with tons of wins. It's quite spectacular.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on April 07, 2015, 12:55:57 pm
After playing about 20 or so games with variations of Mill Rogue (Gang Up + Death Knight + Coldlight + Vanish + Antique Healbot + etc) I think it's A) one of the hardest decks to play B) not worth your time unless you really love the idea. When you win by fatigue it's incredibly satisfying, but usually people just concede if they see it's inevitable so you don't get the fun of killing them with it, which brings me to my next point, the games usually take a really long time, and you have to constantly play around big combos because your opponent will eventually draw their combo (unless you burn the key cards). The amount of stress of playing around FON + Savage x 2 constantly or double Enrage or whatever 20+ damage combo many decks can run, but rarely draw into is not for me.

The length of the games and the sheer number of cards in your hand at all times introduces so much room for error. Should you play an extra Coldlight to burn a card, but leave the Coldlight on the board? Do you need to play Loatheb RIGHT NOW to prevent the combo (and then again the turn after and again if possible)? Do you need to use your Vanish now or can you save it a turn to burn more cards? Is this the type of deck that runs Alexstraza? Should I play Gang Up on my Coldlight Oracle like usual or is this one of those edge case games where I should play it on a Death Knight or Healbot? They have nothing on the board, do I need a taunt out anyways? Should I avoid playing any Coldlights at all to try and win normally? These are the questions that plagued me while I tried to get a handle on Mill Rogue. There's so much more going on than in an aggro deck or a more typical control deck. I'm going back to the simplicity of aggro for a bit before reattempting to master this style of deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on April 07, 2015, 03:57:13 pm
I remember kinda feeling that way about Miracle Rogue once, when I was playing Miracle Rogue before Miracle Rogue was a tier 1 deck.  Would have been about a year and a month ago. Except the big difference is people didn't concede to deny you the gratifying part, no one knew about triple Leeroy because it wasn't an established deck, so even after taking 12 damage they didn't realize that they were going to take 18.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on April 07, 2015, 06:25:46 pm
On a whim, I decided to buy a couple of classic packs. Boom, one of them had Sylvanas. Finally got a nice all around filler for the 6 mana spot (well, Thaurissan works there too).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on April 07, 2015, 06:29:51 pm
Ive gotten the most out of Grim Patron that anyone ever will. It included a huge frothing beserker, a warsong commander, Grim Patrons taking out Dr. Boom and Boom Bots, and a Battle Rage that drew 6 cards. All in 1 turn. So I think I'm done with Grim Patron for a while now as all situations with it now will be underwhelming.

I trust you have not actually given up so soon. I am consistently getting overwhelming wins with a Grim Patron, Warsong, Berserker and enabling spells deck.

I have not given up. I've been tinkering with different decks and I am also coming out with tons of wins. It's quite spectacular.
Do you use Thaurissan? like, to help enable out-of-hand Warsong/Patron stuff?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on April 07, 2015, 08:54:35 pm
Ive gotten the most out of Grim Patron that anyone ever will. It included a huge frothing beserker, a warsong commander, Grim Patrons taking out Dr. Boom and Boom Bots, and a Battle Rage that drew 6 cards. All in 1 turn. So I think I'm done with Grim Patron for a while now as all situations with it now will be underwhelming.

I trust you have not actually given up so soon. I am consistently getting overwhelming wins with a Grim Patron, Warsong, Berserker and enabling spells deck.

I have not given up. I've been tinkering with different decks and I am also coming out with tons of wins. It's quite spectacular.
Do you use Thaurissan? like, to help enable out-of-hand Warsong/Patron stuff?

Yeah of course. I'm using the deck Kripp showcased, except I changed 1 inner for something else I can't remember right now. I've found it's better to avoid worgen and aim for more value from grim patron. Worgen is too specific and doesn't do enough when just played on it's own.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on April 07, 2015, 09:05:44 pm
Ive gotten the most out of Grim Patron that anyone ever will. It included a huge frothing beserker, a warsong commander, Grim Patrons taking out Dr. Boom and Boom Bots, and a Battle Rage that drew 6 cards. All in 1 turn. So I think I'm done with Grim Patron for a while now as all situations with it now will be underwhelming.

I trust you have not actually given up so soon. I am consistently getting overwhelming wins with a Grim Patron, Warsong, Berserker and enabling spells deck.

I have not given up. I've been tinkering with different decks and I am also coming out with tons of wins. It's quite spectacular.
Do you use Thaurissan? like, to help enable out-of-hand Warsong/Patron stuff?

Yeah of course. I'm using the deck Kripp showcased, except I changed 1 inner for something else I can't remember right now. I've found it's better to avoid worgen and aim for more value from grim patron. Worgen is too specific and doesn't do enough when just played on it's own.
Yeah I can see that. Worgen needs a bunch of combo cards to come together, but Patron can claim a board with just Warsong.

I didn't see Kripp's deck. I haven't had much time to keep up with the Hearthstone scene.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on April 07, 2015, 10:37:12 pm
Ive gotten the most out of Grim Patron that anyone ever will. It included a huge frothing beserker, a warsong commander, Grim Patrons taking out Dr. Boom and Boom Bots, and a Battle Rage that drew 6 cards. All in 1 turn. So I think I'm done with Grim Patron for a while now as all situations with it now will be underwhelming.

I trust you have not actually given up so soon. I am consistently getting overwhelming wins with a Grim Patron, Warsong, Berserker and enabling spells deck.

I have not given up. I've been tinkering with different decks and I am also coming out with tons of wins. It's quite spectacular.
Do you use Thaurissan? like, to help enable out-of-hand Warsong/Patron stuff?

Yeah of course. I'm using the deck Kripp showcased, except I changed 1 inner for something else I can't remember right now. I've found it's better to avoid worgen and aim for more value from grim patron. Worgen is too specific and doesn't do enough when just played on it's own.
Yeah I can see that. Worgen needs a bunch of combo cards to come together, but Patron can claim a board with just Warsong.

I didn't see Kripp's deck. I haven't had much time to keep up with the Hearthstone scene.

I doubt it's optimal, but it has its moments. I won like 6-7 games in a row using it, and now I'm winning about 50-50. It's a lot of fun. Grim Patron is good, just not good enough to carry an entire deck based around it. But for sure not garbage. It's surprisingly effective.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on April 08, 2015, 09:14:27 am
The main thing about Grim Patron that it eats face hunters for breakfast. My deck is built around the Patrons and Frothing Berzerkers. I'd say 50-50 win rate is about right. The only card I am seriously looking at swapping out at the moment is Rampage. It rarely connects with Patron in a meaningful way, more often keeps a damaged Belcher together and most often is a dead card in my hand running two of them. Problem is nothing seems to be a good fit, at least not class-specific.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on April 08, 2015, 04:47:16 pm
The main thing about Grim Patron that it eats face hunters for breakfast. My deck is built around the Patrons and Frothing Berzerkers. I'd say 50-50 win rate is about right. The only card I am seriously looking at swapping out at the moment is Rampage. It rarely connects with Patron in a meaningful way, more often keeps a damaged Belcher together and most often is a dead card in my hand running two of them. Problem is nothing seems to be a good fit, at least not class-specific.

Wild Pyro, Commanding Shout are both good options that are better than Rampage. Commanding Shout draws a card, and can often but really good with Wild Pyro and Grim Patron. Or just grim patron on its own.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on April 09, 2015, 12:47:52 pm
Warrior already eats facehunters for breakfast.  Yes, there's a saturated amount of facehunter, but you should just run your armorsmiths and shieldblocks and double up on sludge belchers and you should destroy them. 
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 09, 2015, 01:14:47 pm
Speaking of Warrior, I just realized Alex+Charge is a thing again with Emperor...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on April 09, 2015, 01:46:45 pm
And now you only need an.. Arcanite reaper
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Twistedarcher on April 09, 2015, 02:31:41 pm
grim patron is incredibly dumb to play against. incredibly. i have not been this frustrated since uth + buzzard.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on April 09, 2015, 06:55:49 pm
grim patron is incredibly dumb to play against. incredibly. i have not been this frustrated since uth + buzzard.

I think it's pretty interesting. I mean, if they just drop it you can usually play around it or kill it outright. But it's similar to playing against Force/Savage Roar. It just happens, like the Grim Patron combos. Grim Patron is worse than Force/savange for sure.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on April 10, 2015, 02:13:39 pm
I have not lost to this deck at all, I guess this is an experience I need to have.  I saw one grim patron and killed it outright so far, that's it.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on April 10, 2015, 04:39:32 pm
I have not lost to this deck at all, I guess this is an experience I need to have.  I saw one grim patron and killed it outright so far, that's it.

I see a lot players using it terribly. It's a good deck, but not super competitive. It falls short on consistency and can be slow if you don't hit your draw cards.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on April 11, 2015, 12:07:00 am
I have not lost to this deck at all, I guess this is an experience I need to have.  I saw one grim patron and killed it outright so far, that's it.

I see a lot players using it terribly. It's a good deck, but not super competitive. It falls short on consistency and can be slow if you don't hit your draw cards.
But boy when you hit a Warsong Commander-Grim Patron-Commanding Shout turn does it ever pay off.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on April 11, 2015, 09:30:12 am
I have not lost to this deck at all, I guess this is an experience I need to have.  I saw one grim patron and killed it outright so far, that's it.

I see a lot players using it terribly. It's a good deck, but not super competitive. It falls short on consistency and can be slow if you don't hit your draw cards.
But boy when you hit a Warsong Commander-Grim Patron-Commanding Shout turn does it ever pay off.

Edge case poison blade blade flurry.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on April 17, 2015, 12:34:28 am
I'm having tons of success with an "old school" zoo deck that I earlier mentioned was the best home for the new egg. 
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Watno on April 20, 2015, 07:58:12 pm
Grim Patron Warrior is so fun, and it seems pretty strong to me. Just went 8-3 from at Rank 5 with it, and that was my first time playing it.
It also very cheap dust-wise if you have the Adventures, so I'd recommend everyone trying it.

However, Blizzard should really make the animation on Grim Patron faster. You basically need to leave like half a minute to play out your turn if you summon a copule of Grim Patrons and want to attack with them.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on April 20, 2015, 10:13:19 pm
I suspect the next patch will feature a speed up on the animation. What I don't get is why they keep making all the animations slow. They know it's going to interfere with playing, especially with card like Grim Patron.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 20, 2015, 11:51:41 pm
I'm having tons of success with an "old school" zoo deck that I earlier mentioned was the best home for the new egg.

Imp gang boss is a pretty solid card to make zoo attractive again. Harder to kill than a harvest golem and its a demon so you can use demonfire maybe..
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on April 21, 2015, 12:17:25 am
I'm having tons of success with an "old school" zoo deck that I earlier mentioned was the best home for the new egg.

Imp gang boss is a pretty solid card to make zoo attractive again. Harder to kill than a harvest golem and its a demon so you can use demonfire maybe..

Imp Gang Boss is even more annoying to deal with that I originally suspected. I don't think it'll make Zoo good enough to be truely competitive, but perhaps.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on April 21, 2015, 12:44:53 am
I'm having tons of success with an "old school" zoo deck that I earlier mentioned was the best home for the new egg.

Imp gang boss is a pretty solid card to make zoo attractive again. Harder to kill than a harvest golem and its a demon so you can use demonfire maybe..
Yeah gang boss is pretty cool.  I don't think you can use demonfire though.  The thing that always made demonfire good is that it's a 2/2 charge minion, and charging onto face can get you earlier kills.  Between soulfire being gone and Sludge Belcher existing early kills are just not really doable, so you lose that upside.  It's along the same wavelength as no one ever running leper gnome ever in zoo nowadays.  You have to try to stick super hard to the board control strategy and sprinkle even less of facerace philosophy with modern zoo.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on April 21, 2015, 09:18:34 am
I'm having tons of success with an "old school" zoo deck that I earlier mentioned was the best home for the new egg.

Imp gang boss is a pretty solid card to make zoo attractive again. Harder to kill than a harvest golem and its a demon so you can use demonfire maybe..
Yeah gang boss is pretty cool.  I don't think you can use demonfire though.  The thing that always made demonfire good is that it's a 2/2 charge minion, and charging onto face can get you earlier kills.  Between soulfire being gone and Sludge Belcher existing early kills are just not really doable, so you lose that upside.  It's along the same wavelength as no one ever running leper gnome ever in zoo nowadays.  You have to try to stick super hard to the board control strategy and sprinkle even less of facerace philosophy with modern zoo.
My hope is that Imp Gang boss along with the new Warlock spell that does 2 damage to all non-demons will make Demonlock more viable, or at least more interesting.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 21, 2015, 10:47:25 am
I don't know about the damage to non-demons thing, but I think demonlock seems pretty appealing with Mistress of Pain and Imp Gang Boos getting nice benefits from Demonfire and Demonheart and Voidcaller just being straight-up strong.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on April 21, 2015, 12:29:52 pm
There's also Imp-Losion another extremely annoying method of creating a bunch of little demons while killing something.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Watno on April 21, 2015, 12:37:15 pm
Grim Patron Warrior is so fun, and it seems pretty strong to me. Just went 8-3 from at Rank 5 with it, and that was my first time playing it.
It also very cheap dust-wise if you have the Adventures, so I'd recommend everyone trying it.

However, Blizzard should really make the animation on Grim Patron faster. You basically need to leave like half a minute to play out your turn if you summon a copule of Grim Patrons and want to attack with them.

And I went straight on to rank 2 with only 3 more losses, highest I've ever been. Total record 21-6, and at least one of these losses would have been avoidable.

People also don't seem to really know how to play against it yet, I had someone try Whirlwind+Execute on my Grim Patron.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on April 21, 2015, 12:47:12 pm
Grim Patron Warrior is so fun, and it seems pretty strong to me. Just went 8-3 from at Rank 5 with it, and that was my first time playing it.
It also very cheap dust-wise if you have the Adventures, so I'd recommend everyone trying it.

However, Blizzard should really make the animation on Grim Patron faster. You basically need to leave like half a minute to play out your turn if you summon a copule of Grim Patrons and want to attack with them.

And I went straight on to rank 2 with only 3 more losses, highest I've ever been. Total record 21-6, and at least one of these losses would have been avoidable.

People also don't seem to really know how to play against it yet, I had someone try Whirlwind+Execute on my Grim Patron.

wut. That is the worst play imaginable.

This does bring up the interesting topic of how you do play around it. I've been going with the do 3 damage strategy, where you try not to play things that do 3 damage or less in the late game against that sort of warrior. Sludge Belchers and Shieldmasters are pretty good for that, as are Healbots, Earthen Ring Farseers, SI7 Agents, and big AOE spells (not a minion, but it does a good job of undoing a big Grim Patron turn). What have you guys been doing?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on April 21, 2015, 12:55:08 pm
I've been killing Warriors before turn 8.  That works fine.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on April 21, 2015, 10:20:16 pm
I'm experimenting with a Dragon Priest thing.

Is that a thing?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on April 22, 2015, 12:11:08 am
I'm experimenting with a Dragon Priest thing.

Is that a thing?

It might be a new thing, but I think everyone is going to try Dragon Paladin first.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on April 22, 2015, 03:56:00 pm
I tried running a previously reliable Oil Rogue deck today to satisfy the Daily and boy, the meta has shifted such that traditional Oil Rogue has no chance unless the Rogue gets great draws and the opponent gets terrible draws. I reworked the deck to be some sort of Mech Rogue that has a aggro opening board and control finishing starting with Dr Boom who i recently crafted (finally) and the wins started rolling in.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 22, 2015, 04:00:40 pm
I tried running a previously reliable Oil Rogue deck today to satisfy the Daily and boy, the meta has shifted such that traditional Oil Rogue has no chance unless the Rogue gets great draws and the opponent gets terrible draws. I reworked the deck to be some sort of Mech Rogue that has a aggro opening board and control finishing starting with Dr Boom who i recently crafted (finally) and the wins started rolling in.

What changes to the meta make Oil Rogue bad?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on April 23, 2015, 09:51:26 am
I tried running a previously reliable Oil Rogue deck today to satisfy the Daily and boy, the meta has shifted such that traditional Oil Rogue has no chance unless the Rogue gets great draws and the opponent gets terrible draws. I reworked the deck to be some sort of Mech Rogue that has a aggro opening board and control finishing starting with Dr Boom who i recently crafted (finally) and the wins started rolling in.

What changes to the meta make Oil Rogue bad?

The early game cannot keep up with the mounting pressure and you are dead before the finishing combos come together if ever at all. The deck is too focused on draw and forming combos and has no allowance for altering the mana curve (like mech warper can do) or maintaining persistent board presence (like shredder and golem can do).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 23, 2015, 10:22:12 am
I guess my question is what decks are beating it?

I thought one of the big selling points of Oil Rogue is to beat stuff like Mech Mage and Zoo, since you have tons of major board clear and great early removal. If Zoo is getting more popular, this should be good for Oil Rogue. I would think the only fear is that Warrior rises to beat the Zoos, and Warrior is a bad matchup.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on April 23, 2015, 05:33:41 pm
Zoo runs like four more instances of taunts than mechmagezoo, which I think makes some difference.  It makes it so much harder to plow a dagger into a face then blade flurry it to kill stuff.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on April 25, 2015, 07:03:04 am
Why does everyone prioritize killing my Leper Gnomes instead of my other 2/1s? I'm at Rank 10 and people still do this every time.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 25, 2015, 09:54:58 am
Why does everyone prioritize killing my Leper Gnomes instead of my other 2/1s? I'm at Rank 10 and people still do this every time.

One possible reason -- to lose the 2 health sooner, so you don't waste healing that would otherwise put you over 30.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Watno on April 25, 2015, 10:45:59 am
What are your other 2/1s? I'd definitely kill Leper Gnome before Clockwork Gnome against hunter, for example.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on April 25, 2015, 11:03:35 am
What are your other 2/1s? I'd definitely kill Leper Gnome before Clockwork Gnome against hunter, for example.

Clockwork Gnome, Worgen Infiltrator, Abusive Sergeant and Ironbeak Owl. Sometimes I run a Bluegill Warrior as well, but it's not in my current build. And people kill my Clockwork Gnomes before my Abusive Sergeants, too (though, that's actually a good play if they correctly suspect that I have a Divine Favor).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on April 27, 2015, 04:07:18 pm
I tried running a previously reliable Oil Rogue deck today to satisfy the Daily and boy, the meta has shifted such that traditional Oil Rogue has no chance unless the Rogue gets great draws and the opponent gets terrible draws. I reworked the deck to be some sort of Mech Rogue that has a aggro opening board and control finishing starting with Dr Boom who i recently crafted (finally) and the wins started rolling in.

I played some Rogue, didn't notice a high discrepancy. I was doing just fine.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on April 27, 2015, 04:09:59 pm
I liked some midrange dragon Palladins that I played against (I am a sucker for Palladins, though).

I am playing old deck as I didn't unlock any blackrock yet, though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on April 28, 2015, 11:02:32 am
I liked some midrange dragon Palladins that I played against (I am a sucker for Palladins, though).

I am playing old deck as I didn't unlock any blackrock yet, though.
Yeah I was hoping to try one of those myself. I did try my hand at a Shaman deck with high-health minions, removal, and Lava Shock that had some dragons in it. I think it was too vulnerable to aggro. I did learn that 5 dragons in the deck is enough to activate dragon-in-hand effects pretty reliably. So for Paladin 2 Hungry Dragons, 2 Dragon Consorts, and 1-2 big dragons (say Chromaggus) is an example of all you would need as far as dragons go to support dragon-in-hand effects.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on April 28, 2015, 12:31:18 pm
I liked some midrange dragon Palladins that I played against (I am a sucker for Palladins, though).

I am playing old deck as I didn't unlock any blackrock yet, though.
Yeah I was hoping to try one of those myself. I did try my hand at a Shaman deck with high-health minions, removal, and Lava Shock that had some dragons in it. I think it was too vulnerable to aggro. I did learn that 5 dragons in the deck is enough to activate dragon-in-hand effects pretty reliably. So for Paladin 2 Hungry Dragons, 2 Dragon Consorts, and 1-2 big dragons (say Chromaggus) is an example of all you would need as far as dragons go to support dragon-in-hand effects.

I 5 not to be enough. 6 at least, and not activating Blackwing Technician is really bad as you lose all of your advantage.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on April 28, 2015, 12:44:21 pm
I liked some midrange dragon Palladins that I played against (I am a sucker for Palladins, though).

I am playing old deck as I didn't unlock any blackrock yet, though.
Yeah I was hoping to try one of those myself. I did try my hand at a Shaman deck with high-health minions, removal, and Lava Shock that had some dragons in it. I think it was too vulnerable to aggro. I did learn that 5 dragons in the deck is enough to activate dragon-in-hand effects pretty reliably. So for Paladin 2 Hungry Dragons, 2 Dragon Consorts, and 1-2 big dragons (say Chromaggus) is an example of all you would need as far as dragons go to support dragon-in-hand effects.

I 5 not to be enough. 6 at least, and not activating Blackwing Technician is really bad as you lose all of your advantage.
Well, if you can have 6 or more Dragons that are useful to your deck on their own, all the more power to you. If you really want to play Blackwing Technician on Turn 3 to get the most benefit, then your deck will have to lean towards more dragons.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 28, 2015, 01:14:03 pm
IMO any dragon deck should run Azure Drakes, since they're borderline good enough to run on their own. Twilight Drake is also good but competes at a heavy 4-drop spot. I'm not so sure Blackwing Tech is that horrible as a 2/4 for 3 if you miss though. Seems fine enough.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on April 28, 2015, 01:57:48 pm
IMO any dragon deck should run Azure Drakes, since they're borderline good enough to run on their own. Twilight Drake is also good but competes at a heavy 4-drop spot. I'm not so sure Blackwing Tech is that horrible as a 2/4 for 3 if you miss though. Seems fine enough.
Well for Paladin you can get away with playing Muster for Battle on Turn 3 instead. I just find it weird to use Azure Drake for Paladin when the spell power would only help Consecration.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on April 30, 2015, 09:22:55 pm
Any good dragon deck suggestions?  I've been working on the Priest version, which hasn't been great yet...I am trying for both synergy and theme, which is probably hurting me...

Circle of Healing x2
PW: S x2
Northshire Cleric
Twilight Whelp x2
Resurrect x2
Faerie Dragon
SW: D
Blackwing Tech x2
Injured Blademaster x2
Shadow Madness x2
Auchenai Soulpriest x2
Hungry Dragon x2
Holy Nova x2
Azure Drake x2
Cabal Shadow Priest
Dr. Boom
Rend Blackhand
Chromaggus
Alexstrasza
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on May 01, 2015, 12:48:22 pm
@ash: This is all me talking out of my ass theory crafting, so take what you will of this, but here's what I'd do if I was trying to improve your Dragon Priest deck.

I don't think Priest will get good at dragons until the last wing opens. When that happens though, I'd revisit this deck with the following changes:
-Ditch the old Priest tricks and beef up the dragon-y-ness. I would try subbing out both CoHs, both Auchenai and both Injured Blademasters and try putting in 2 Velen's Chosen, 2 Blackwing Corruptors and 2 Dragonkin Sorcerors. The Dragonkins would help you activate the Blackwings, Whelps, Corruptors and Blackhand more regularly and be great targets for PW:S and Velen's Chosen. If the Sorcerors are underwhelming I'd sub 1 and 1 Velen's Chosen out and bring an Auchenai and a CoH back. The Corruptors are basically a Fire Elemental for 1 mana less, I expect them to be in every Dragon deck regardless of class.

-I'd also think about taking out your Faerie Dragon for a second Northshire Cleric or a Shrinkmeister. Faerie Dragons are usually played before you play cards that need them to activate and they can't be directly healed with your Hero Power or buffed with your spells. Clerics can combo with Chromag, CoH, Velen's Chosen to be pretty effective and Shrinkmeisters can combo with Cabal Shadow Priest or Shadow Madness while still being healed or buffed if necessary.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on May 01, 2015, 12:51:14 pm
Also I'm not totally sold that Resurrect is good enough that every Priest deck wants it. You might want to sub that out instead of 1 copy of the Auchenai/CoH combo.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on May 01, 2015, 04:15:39 pm
Ressurect I think is a card you need in a specific deck. With 3+ 1 drops I think it's too risky to have in a deck. Because it's such a late game card, the things that have died mid game are mostly low stuff, and more low stuff than big stuff even late game. I think it fits better in a classic priest which DOES run Injured blademaster and stuff like that.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on May 01, 2015, 05:50:29 pm
Jorbles, I had the same thoughts after completing the new wing.  New version:

Circle of Healing x2
PW: S x2
Northshire Cleric x2
Twilight Whelp x2
SW: D
Velen's a Chosen x2
Blackwing Tech x2
Shadow Madness
Auchenai Soulpriest x2
Dragonkin Sorcerer x2
Hungry Dragon x2
Holy Nova x2
Blackwing Corrupter x2
Sludge Belcher
Drakonid Crusher x2
Chromaggus
Alexstrasza
Nefarian
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on May 01, 2015, 06:27:14 pm
Jorbles, I had the same thoughts after completing the new wing.  New version:

Circle of Healing x2
PW: S x2
Northshire Cleric x2
Twilight Whelp x2
SW: D
Velen's a Chosen x2
Blackwing Tech x2
Shadow Madness
Auchenai Soulpriest x2
Dragonkin Sorcerer x2
Hungry Dragon x2
Holy Nova x2
Blackwing Corrupter x2
Sludge Belcher
Drakonid Crusher x2
Chromaggus
Alexstrasza
Nefarian
I find it so sad that Priest got a conditional 2/3 for 1 mana when Zombie Chow already exists and combos with Auchenai. Having it used against me in the adventures, I acknowledge that being a dragon itself makes the whelp helpful as a dragon synergy enabler, but you only need 1 dragon to enable those synergies. It's very likely that a big dragon like Chromaggus or Alexstrasza is stuck in your hand early on anyway.

Resurrect is cool but is really skewed towards more control-style Priests. Decks where resurrect is good wouldn't have much else below 3 mana besides Northshire Cleric and maybe Pyromancer.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on May 01, 2015, 06:31:44 pm
Resurrecting Northshire for 2 mana is so totally fine.  Northshire originally costed 2 mana.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on May 01, 2015, 06:50:07 pm
Jorbles, I had the same thoughts after completing the new wing.  New version:

Circle of Healing x2
PW: S x2
Northshire Cleric x2
Twilight Whelp x2
SW: D
Velen's a Chosen x2
Blackwing Tech x2
Shadow Madness
Auchenai Soulpriest x2
Dragonkin Sorcerer x2
Hungry Dragon x2
Holy Nova x2
Blackwing Corrupter x2
Sludge Belcher
Drakonid Crusher x2
Chromaggus
Alexstrasza
Nefarian

Let me know how it does! I think Rend might still have a home somewhere in the deck, but I'd defer to your experience actually playing with it.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on May 01, 2015, 07:22:08 pm
Speaking of Blackrock Mountain cards, how many of you have tried Dragon egg. I've included 2 of them along with 2 Nerubian eggs in my zoo deck, and I'm pleased with the results so far. Having more eggs goes a long way to giving more value to the standard zoo buff cards (Dire wolf, Sergeant, Argus, Dark Iron Dwarf), and you don't have to coin it out Turn 1 like you would for Nerubian. Your opponent dealing with it preemptively still costs at least 1 "action" more than they would need for typical minions. Combined with Imp Gang Boss, BRM has allowed Warlock to flood the board with buff targets quite reliably.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on May 01, 2015, 10:52:27 pm
Speaking of Blackrock Mountain cards, how many of you have tried Dragon egg. I've included 2 of them along with 2 Nerubian eggs in my zoo deck, and I'm pleased with the results so far. Having more eggs goes a long way to giving more value to the standard zoo buff cards (Dire wolf, Sergeant, Argus, Dark Iron Dwarf), and you don't have to coin it out Turn 1 like you would for Nerubian. Your opponent dealing with it preemptively still costs at least 1 "action" more than they would need for typical minions. Combined with Imp Gang Boss, BRM has allowed Warlock to flood the board with buff targets quite reliably.

I think egg zoo is the best warlock zoo, but I think warlock zoo is still a bad version of mage zoo for now unfortunately.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on May 02, 2015, 01:50:40 pm
Speaking of Blackrock Mountain cards, how many of you have tried Dragon egg. I've included 2 of them along with 2 Nerubian eggs in my zoo deck, and I'm pleased with the results so far. Having more eggs goes a long way to giving more value to the standard zoo buff cards (Dire wolf, Sergeant, Argus, Dark Iron Dwarf), and you don't have to coin it out Turn 1 like you would for Nerubian. Your opponent dealing with it preemptively still costs at least 1 "action" more than they would need for typical minions. Combined with Imp Gang Boss, BRM has allowed Warlock to flood the board with buff targets quite reliably.

I think egg zoo is the best warlock zoo, but I think warlock zoo is still a bad version of mage zoo for now unfortunately.
As of Imp Gang Boss, Zoo is actually considered one of the strongest decks in the game, especially the demon-flavored midrange varieties. Check it: http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/484472-pr-april-2015-week-5-patron-warrior-best-deck-paladin-worst-class
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on May 02, 2015, 02:02:14 pm
I don't think I would call that Zoo.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on May 02, 2015, 06:22:41 pm
Speaking of Blackrock Mountain cards, how many of you have tried Dragon egg. I've included 2 of them along with 2 Nerubian eggs in my zoo deck, and I'm pleased with the results so far. Having more eggs goes a long way to giving more value to the standard zoo buff cards (Dire wolf, Sergeant, Argus, Dark Iron Dwarf), and you don't have to coin it out Turn 1 like you would for Nerubian. Your opponent dealing with it preemptively still costs at least 1 "action" more than they would need for typical minions. Combined with Imp Gang Boss, BRM has allowed Warlock to flood the board with buff targets quite reliably.

I think egg zoo is the best warlock zoo, but I think warlock zoo is still a bad version of mage zoo for now unfortunately.
As of Imp Gang Boss, Zoo is actually considered one of the strongest decks in the game, especially the demon-flavored midrange varieties. Check it: http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/484472-pr-april-2015-week-5-patron-warrior-best-deck-paladin-worst-class


Thanks for that link, good read.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on May 03, 2015, 12:20:21 am
It's cool to hear that fibbonacci got 1st na.  I love playing against that guy in upper ladder.  He plays nothing but warrior which is really awesome dedication to see.


I hate how easy lower ladder is and wish ladder didn't reset so hard each month.  I'm 17 out of 21 wins with a gnomish experimenter deck right now.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on May 04, 2015, 02:08:58 pm
Speaking of Blackrock Mountain cards, how many of you have tried Dragon egg. I've included 2 of them along with 2 Nerubian eggs in my zoo deck, and I'm pleased with the results so far. Having more eggs goes a long way to giving more value to the standard zoo buff cards (Dire wolf, Sergeant, Argus, Dark Iron Dwarf), and you don't have to coin it out Turn 1 like you would for Nerubian. Your opponent dealing with it preemptively still costs at least 1 "action" more than they would need for typical minions. Combined with Imp Gang Boss, BRM has allowed Warlock to flood the board with buff targets quite reliably.

Thanks for mentioning this, I built up an Omelette Zoo deck and won like 8 games in a row.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on May 05, 2015, 07:55:26 am
Speaking of Blackrock Mountain cards, how many of you have tried Dragon egg. I've included 2 of them along with 2 Nerubian eggs in my zoo deck, and I'm pleased with the results so far. Having more eggs goes a long way to giving more value to the standard zoo buff cards (Dire wolf, Sergeant, Argus, Dark Iron Dwarf), and you don't have to coin it out Turn 1 like you would for Nerubian. Your opponent dealing with it preemptively still costs at least 1 "action" more than they would need for typical minions. Combined with Imp Gang Boss, BRM has allowed Warlock to flood the board with buff targets quite reliably.

Thanks for mentioning this, I built up an Omelette Zoo deck and won like 8 games in a row.
Lol Omelette Zoo. I'm trying out a more Zoo-like Midrange Lock inspired by the deck ranking link above, still with the Dragon and Nerubian eggs. It's a shame I don't have Mal'ganis, so there's little reason to go heavy on demons. However having Dr. Boom helps a lot to against the more control-y decks. I've also swapped Sea Giant with Volcanic Drake for now just to see what happens. Volcanic Drake is a significantly smaller body than 8/8, but is an option if you really don't want BGH targets in your deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on May 05, 2015, 10:20:30 am
Played Nefarian against a Mage...got Duplicate and Flamestrike.

He drops Azure and Silver Hand Knight, I play both spells.  He was basically done then, but put up a good fight.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on May 05, 2015, 01:25:14 pm
Speaking of Blackrock Mountain cards, how many of you have tried Dragon egg. I've included 2 of them along with 2 Nerubian eggs in my zoo deck, and I'm pleased with the results so far. Having more eggs goes a long way to giving more value to the standard zoo buff cards (Dire wolf, Sergeant, Argus, Dark Iron Dwarf), and you don't have to coin it out Turn 1 like you would for Nerubian. Your opponent dealing with it preemptively still costs at least 1 "action" more than they would need for typical minions. Combined with Imp Gang Boss, BRM has allowed Warlock to flood the board with buff targets quite reliably.

Thanks for mentioning this, I built up an Omelette Zoo deck and won like 8 games in a row.
Lol Omelette Zoo.

Gotta break a few eggs!

Quote
I'm trying out a more Zoo-like Midrange Lock inspired by the deck ranking link above, still with the Dragon and Nerubian eggs. It's a shame I don't have Mal'ganis, so there's little reason to go heavy on demons. However having Dr. Boom helps a lot to against the more control-y decks. I've also swapped Sea Giant with Volcanic Drake for now just to see what happens. Volcanic Drake is a significantly smaller body than 8/8, but is an option if you really don't want BGH targets in your deck.

That sounds cool, I don't have Malganis either, but I do think he'd make the demon aspect of the deck really strong.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on May 05, 2015, 06:39:47 pm
Turn 6 Knife Juggler Implosion is making me want to quit the game.  4 damage and 2 tokens or 8 damage and 4 tokens.  But the total amount of luck possible is beyond an order of magnitude of 2 because you can have 2 poorly thrown knives versus 4 accurate ones.

Blizzard is trying to teach me to be content with Brawl's level of RNG
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on May 05, 2015, 06:56:38 pm
Turn 6 Knife Juggler Implosion is making me want to quit the game.  4 damage and 2 tokens or 8 damage and 4 tokens.  But the total amount of luck possible is beyond an order of magnitude of 2 because you can have 2 poorly thrown knives versus 4 accurate ones.

Blizzard is trying to teach me to be content with Brawl's level of RNG

In general, I really dislike Implosion. It would have been fine if you'd get 6-X Imps where X is the amount of damage dealt. It would have been fine if it just dealt 2-4 damage and gave 2-4 (randomize again) Imps. But no, the card just has to be worded in such a way that the majority of the time you're getting one of the extremes.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on May 05, 2015, 07:40:37 pm
Turn 6 Knife Juggler Implosion is making me want to quit the game.  4 damage and 2 tokens or 8 damage and 4 tokens.  But the total amount of luck possible is beyond an order of magnitude of 2 because you can have 2 poorly thrown knives versus 4 accurate ones.

Blizzard is trying to teach me to be content with Brawl's level of RNG

In general, I really dislike Implosion. It would have been fine if you'd get 6-X Imps where X is the amount of damage dealt. It would have been fine if it just dealt 2-4 damage and gave 2-4 (randomize again) Imps. But no, the card just has to be worded in such a way that the majority of the time you're getting one of the extremes.

Not that this makes it good design, but I think the point of them scaling together is so that the card synergizes with spell damage. More than spells normally do, I mean.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on May 05, 2015, 09:27:12 pm
Turn 6 Knife Juggler Implosion is making me want to quit the game.  4 damage and 2 tokens or 8 damage and 4 tokens.  But the total amount of luck possible is beyond an order of magnitude of 2 because you can have 2 poorly thrown knives versus 4 accurate ones.

Blizzard is trying to teach me to be content with Brawl's level of RNG

In general, I really dislike Implosion. It would have been fine if you'd get 6-X Imps where X is the amount of damage dealt. It would have been fine if it just dealt 2-4 damage and gave 2-4 (randomize again) Imps. But no, the card just has to be worded in such a way that the majority of the time you're getting one of the extremes.

Not that this makes it good design, but I think the point of them scaling together is so that the card synergizes with spell damage. More than spells normally do, I mean.

Which is another chance to be disappointed in the dull nature of Blizzard's insight into design.  Spell damage only appears on minions.  Implosion is a spell that summons many minions, making its primary vulnerability mass removal.  Scaling off of the effect of a minion you need to have in play, one which has poor health for its cost unless it's dalarnever mage, amplifies the card's weakness.  Darkbomb synergizes with spell damage more than Implosion does, in practice because cost is a much bigger factor.  Mortal Strike synergizes better too, because Mortal Strike can target face and improving the number of possible "solve for lethals" in your deck is more of a benefit than improving your deck's ability to overextend.  I'm actually not sure I can come up with a spell that deals damage and synergizes LESS with implosion, it would have to cost almost as much or more, have no AoE, and have no hero targeting.  Shadowbolt, -maybe-.  Oh, Felheart!  Felheart synergizes less with spell damage.  Huzzah..

Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on May 05, 2015, 11:22:37 pm
Tell us how you really feel.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on May 05, 2015, 11:31:24 pm
Is running Double Mind Control a thing now?  I ran into that on the low ladder today.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on May 06, 2015, 12:14:44 am
Turn 6 Knife Juggler Implosion is making me want to quit the game.  4 damage and 2 tokens or 8 damage and 4 tokens.  But the total amount of luck possible is beyond an order of magnitude of 2 because you can have 2 poorly thrown knives versus 4 accurate ones.

Blizzard is trying to teach me to be content with Brawl's level of RNG

In general, I really dislike Implosion. It would have been fine if you'd get 6-X Imps where X is the amount of damage dealt. It would have been fine if it just dealt 2-4 damage and gave 2-4 (randomize again) Imps. But no, the card just has to be worded in such a way that the majority of the time you're getting one of the extremes.

Yes, this is what I would have preferred all along. I don't like the design of Implosion. With Crackle, and to some extend the Boom Bots, the high end of the random damage can just overkill stuff, but with Implosion doing more damage always translates to lots of value. Thinking about it, it should just spawn 3 Imps. Combo with Spell Damage, just to make not having Swipe/Whirlwind/Fan of Knives feel even worse for your opponent? I don't need that to be satisfied with the card.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on May 06, 2015, 07:37:05 pm
I mean, ycz6 probably hit the nail on the head in terms of identifying the origin of the bad design.  "Spell damage +X" has in general been a field of disappointing design decisions from Blizz.  From the getgo it's not a great thing to spend a lot of time on, it an overly specific X enables Y relationship.  A couple cards on the theme would be fine, but as an evergreen force-it-to-be-relevant recurring mechanic, no.  The awkward forward compatibility and class specific variation on the theme are extra reasons not to make it such a focus.

Bloodmage Thalnos is a very nasty way of forcing the mechanic to be relevant, and balancing him only by legendariness has made the game swingier, notably with  turn 5 Thalnos-Lightning Storm. 

Azure Drake is no longer overbearing, but early in the game's lifespan its power level was very "forced".  It contributed to Argent Commander being a highly centralized card (it was 4/3 then).  It still kind of is overbearing and a tad game warping:  Shaman benefits from the spell damage more than Paladin, but both those two classes badly need a cantrip creature to avoid empty hand issues.  Shaman has been more well positioned than Paladin for a long time and that's probably still the case right now.
Priest would be on the Pally's team and Rogue would be on the Shaman's team on that count too..

Speaking of Shaman, we have Wrath of Air Totem, probably the swingiest totem.

Ok I need to stop posting at some point.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on May 07, 2015, 09:39:57 pm
Turn 6 Knife Juggler Implosion is making me want to quit the game.  4 damage and 2 tokens or 8 damage and 4 tokens.  But the total amount of luck possible is beyond an order of magnitude of 2 because you can have 2 poorly thrown knives versus 4 accurate ones.

Blizzard is trying to teach me to be content with Brawl's level of RNG
And now you also have to worry about Bane of Doom summoning those 5+ mana demons, all of which are formidable in their own way.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on May 07, 2015, 11:20:54 pm
Jorbles, I had the same thoughts after completing the new wing.  New version:

Circle of Healing x2
PW: S x2
Northshire Cleric x2
Twilight Whelp x2
SW: D
Velen's a Chosen x2
Blackwing Tech x2
Shadow Madness
Auchenai Soulpriest x2
Dragonkin Sorcerer x2
Hungry Dragon x2
Holy Nova x2
Blackwing Corrupter x2
Sludge Belcher - Lightbomb
Drakonid Crusher x2
Chromaggus
Alexstrasza
Nefarian

Let me know how it does! I think Rend might still have a home somewhere in the deck, but I'd defer to your experience actually playing with it.

One change to the decklist noted above -- I dropped the Blecher for a Lightbomb because I felt I didn't have the ability to clear a board enough, especially in the later game.

Experience so far (all low ladder): it feels possibly viable, maybe.  Like, I'm winning more than losing, but that's probably just as much my opponents as it is my deck (and my skill).  Generally games feel like this:

Early game: dropping value to keep board control (so 2/3 Whelp, 3/5 Techs, coined Hungry Dragons) and/or trying to draw important cards with Cleric heals and PW: S.
Mid game: one of two things - increase big board presence by buffing Sorcerers (Sorcerer + PW: S is a 4/8 for 5 mana and only one card "spent" on T5) and Hungry Dragons or clearing the board with Soulpriest + COH or Holy Nova/Lightbomb.  I guess Corrupter damage comes in here, but it's only good against single targets.
Late game: I'm not winning with single big minions, but more two-four heavies, like buffed mid-dragons or 9/9 crushers.

I think the three big dragons (Chromaggus, Alex, and Nefarian) are definitely not equal.  Like, Alex is there as a save for me or to get instant pressure on my opponent if I've been focused on the board the entire game.  Nefarian is almost always great, as two free spell cards does make a difference.  Chromaggus has been the weak link, and is probably better off replaced by something else (Boom?  Rend?).

Cards I wonder about...I took out Azure Drakes, as the bodies are weak and the spell power only helps Novas, but I wonder if at least one might not be a good idea anyway.  I have no taunts, which sometimes adds to the feeling of helplessness when I don't draw the board clears.  Do I want my Belcher back in?  Or a Sunwalker?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on May 08, 2015, 09:26:51 am
Jorbles, I had the same thoughts after completing the new wing.  New version:

Circle of Healing x2
PW: S x2
Northshire Cleric x2
Twilight Whelp x2
SW: D
Velen's a Chosen x2
Blackwing Tech x2
Shadow Madness
Auchenai Soulpriest x2
Dragonkin Sorcerer x2
Hungry Dragon x2
Holy Nova x2
Blackwing Corrupter x2
Sludge Belcher - Lightbomb
Drakonid Crusher x2
Chromaggus
Alexstrasza
Nefarian

Let me know how it does! I think Rend might still have a home somewhere in the deck, but I'd defer to your experience actually playing with it.

One change to the decklist noted above -- I dropped the Blecher for a Lightbomb because I felt I didn't have the ability to clear a board enough, especially in the later game.

Experience so far (all low ladder): it feels possibly viable, maybe.  Like, I'm winning more than losing, but that's probably just as much my opponents as it is my deck (and my skill).  Generally games feel like this:

Early game: dropping value to keep board control (so 2/3 Whelp, 3/5 Techs, coined Hungry Dragons) and/or trying to draw important cards with Cleric heals and PW: S.
Mid game: one of two things - increase big board presence by buffing Sorcerers (Sorcerer + PW: S is a 4/8 for 5 mana and only one card "spent" on T5) and Hungry Dragons or clearing the board with Soulpriest + COH or Holy Nova/Lightbomb.  I guess Corrupter damage comes in here, but it's only good against single targets.
Late game: I'm not winning with single big minions, but more two-four heavies, like buffed mid-dragons or 9/9 crushers.

I think the three big dragons (Chromaggus, Alex, and Nefarian) are definitely not equal.  Like, Alex is there as a save for me or to get instant pressure on my opponent if I've been focused on the board the entire game.  Nefarian is almost always great, as two free spell cards does make a difference.  Chromaggus has been the weak link, and is probably better off replaced by something else (Boom?  Rend?).

Cards I wonder about...I took out Azure Drakes, as the bodies are weak and the spell power only helps Novas, but I wonder if at least one might not be a good idea anyway.  I have no taunts, which sometimes adds to the feeling of helplessness when I don't draw the board clears.  Do I want my Belcher back in?  Or a Sunwalker?
It's hard to find a card in your deck to swap out for Belcher or Sunwalker. If you feel you need all your board clears (which might be reasonable against all those aggro decks floating around now), then possibly Alex can be swapped with a good taunt. Both are trying to save you, but a taunt has the benefit of saving you from out-of-hand combos  and comes out sooner. That would only leave you with 10 dragons though. Yoy have more experience than me on whether that's enough dragons to reliably trigger stuff.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on May 08, 2015, 02:09:16 pm
Ten ought to be plenty, the deck here (http://disguisedtoast.com/dragon-experiments/) with the most dragons has 10.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on May 08, 2015, 08:43:44 pm
Yeah, I run 4 in my silly druid.  Maybe I need a 5th though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on May 09, 2015, 02:43:02 am
Ten ought to be plenty, the deck here (http://disguisedtoast.com/dragon-experiments/) with the most dragons has 10.

I don't find myself ever upset with holding too many dragons.  I could give up Alex, I think.

Is Sludge the best taunt there is?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on May 09, 2015, 04:20:36 am
There is no beating Sludge Belcher in a taunt-off. It is truly the best there is.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on May 09, 2015, 09:16:39 am
There is no beating Sludge Belcher in a taunt-off. It is truly the best there is.
It takes at least as many attacks to get through Sludge Belcher as it does to get through Sunwalker. It has even more resilience than Sunwalker when faced with hard removal like The Black Knight and Siphon Soul with the deathrattle as well as against 1/1's like the hounds from UtH. All that for 1 mana less than Sunwalker. It's doesn'tp kill as much stuff, but keeping your opponent from hitting face and other minions is really what you're looking for in a taunt.

Against aggro, the 3 attack is usually enough to kill everything anyway.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on May 09, 2015, 12:56:53 pm
There is no beating Sludge Belcher in a taunt-off. It is truly the best there is.

Tirion? (obviously only Paladins, can run it, but if we're being pedantic...)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on May 09, 2015, 12:59:45 pm
Deathrattling into another minion is an opportunity for inconvenience in attacking with the proper exact damage amount, much like divine shield, so I often like to think of them the same.

Sludge belcher is kinda like 3/6 divine shield by that logic.  Sunwalker trades a health for an attack, you'd never do that on purpose on your taunter would you? Certainly not at the cost of mana.

Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on May 12, 2015, 11:40:52 pm
Turn 6 Knife Juggler Implosion is making me want to quit the game.  4 damage and 2 tokens or 8 damage and 4 tokens.  But the total amount of luck possible is beyond an order of magnitude of 2 because you can have 2 poorly thrown knives versus 4 accurate ones.

Blizzard is trying to teach me to be content with Brawl's level of RNG
And now you also have to worry about Bane of Doom summoning those 5+ mana demons, all of which are formidable in their own way.
Man, got Mal'ganis from Bane of Doom twice in a row in ranked. Crazy stuff.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on May 13, 2015, 05:44:55 am
Couldn't Bane of Doom just have its own Demons like Animal Companion does?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on May 13, 2015, 10:23:21 am
Couldn't Bane of Doom just have its own Demons like Animal Companion does?
Could have, but no now it's like it came out of GvG. I've also gotten a lot of Dread Infernals with it.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on May 13, 2015, 02:15:50 pm
Couldn't Bane of Doom just have its own Demons like Animal Companion does?
I don't think that would really make sense with the lore, though. Misha, Leokk, and Huffer are three specific beasts that Rexxar has befriended in WoW; I don't think there's a good analog for Bane of Doom.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on May 13, 2015, 03:08:50 pm
Couldn't Bane of Doom just have its own Demons like Animal Companion does?
I don't think that would really make sense with the lore, though. Misha, Leokk, and Huffer are three specific beasts that Rexxar has befriended in WoW; I don't think there's a good analog for Bane of Doom.

How much does Hearthstone care about the lore? I assume there's some lore interactions, but actually have no idea except for the occasionaly hearsay such as ycz6's example. I've never even watched someone play WoW.

(I guess followup question, how much do players care about the lore being accurately represented in Hearthstone?)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: AHoppy on May 20, 2015, 06:54:43 pm
So I just opened a golden Mal'Ganis. Which is awesome and all, but I never play warlock because I don't haveany warlock cards. So my question is, do I dust him for another legendary, or do I work towards a great warlock deck (because I really like golden cards...)? My main classes are rogue and shaman, I have al-akir and gallywix already, along with the black knight. I don't have naxx or blackrock, but I might get them in the near future
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on May 20, 2015, 07:10:22 pm
@Jorbles - Let's just say that Dr. Boom is an insane card while in WoW he is a random NPC, while guys like Illidan who are main characters got not-so-flattery cards.

@AHoppy - If it were unplayable, I'd dust it in a heartbeat, however, it does see some play. If I had a deck that needs legendary, I'd dust, otherwise, I wouldn't.
You could get like, Doom.
You really need Void Walkers to make Mal work, so you'd need to unlock some nax wings.
Now, it's up to you if you are going to focus on your fav classes or not, but there isn't really competitive Shaman ATM, and only Rogue to build towards is Oil.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on May 20, 2015, 08:13:14 pm
@Jorbles - Let's just say that Dr. Boom is an insane card while in WoW he is a random NPC, while guys like Illidan who are main characters got not-so-flattery cards.
Dr. Boom nerf to 7/5 incoming?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on May 20, 2015, 08:14:14 pm
I think he'd still be played at 7/5, but it would make him a lot easier to kill.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on May 28, 2015, 10:59:33 pm
Quote
Circle of Healing x2
PW: Shield x2
Northshire Cleric x2
Twilight Whelp x2
SW: Death
Velen's Chosen x2
Blackwing Tech x2
Shadow Madness
Auchenai Soulpriest x2
Dragonkin Sorcerer x2
Hungry Dragon x2
Holy Nova x2
Blackwing Corrupter x2
Lightbomb
Drakonid Crusher x2
Chromaggus
Alexstrasza
Nefarian

So I'm still running this version, not having swapped in a Belcher yet.  There are more games where I miss having removal than I miss having Taunts, though, so I'm not sure I need to swap that in.

I'd say the deck is pretty solid in the Teens -- haven't played it higher.  I'm generally maintaining board control, opting to trade/clear over face at all times, while putting pressure on my opponent by having more solid bodies on the board at all times.

I consitently have enough dragons in hand to always activate what I need while not worrying about playing any dragon I've got.  Of the three big boys, Chromaggus always feels underwhelming, and I could swap him out for something strong (Boom?).

I think I struggle the most against decks that put out 3-4 minions at a time because I just can't clear fast enough.  (Face Hunter is an exception as long as I draw my Holy Novas at the right time.  They're basically dead in the water at that point.)

It's also fun to play.  Happy to hear any suggestions, if they exist.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on May 29, 2015, 12:50:17 pm
If you're struggling decks that drop lots of little minions at once maybe you want another Shadow Madness? It's really strong against Zoo decks, Mech decks, and slow control decks (because Imp Gang Boss/Harvest Golem/Sludge Belcher).

Edit: Grammar, but also Shadow Madness has uses against Grim Patron decks too.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: AHoppy on May 30, 2015, 12:13:08 am
So I ended up getting naxx, and with voidcallers I'm loving Mal'Ganis. But I just had a hand with 7 cards, at 3 health against a hunter (don't remember what was on his board) but my riskiest but biggest return play was to play a doomguard, then PO my voidcaller, trading then calling out Mal'Ganis. Well, the doomguard discarded PO and MG...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on May 31, 2015, 05:33:45 pm
Well, why not play PO before Doomguard?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: AHoppy on May 31, 2015, 06:33:49 pm
The most critical card there was MG, so I figured it gave me a better chance not to discard him. I believe I could still have traded the voidcaller without PO, but PO would have made it better. Discarding both was just kind of an RNG slap in the face...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on May 31, 2015, 10:25:27 pm
If you're struggling decks that drop lots of little minions at once maybe you want another Shadow Madness? It's really strong against Zoo decks, Mech decks, and slow control decks (because Imp Gang Boss/Harvest Golem/Sludge Belcher).

Edit: Grammar, but also Shadow Madness has uses against Grim Patron decks too.

Can you tell me how, exactly?  I get the synergy with some cards (GP spawns, if you can take a Belcher and kill it for the little dude, Harvest Golem for the extra buddy), but usually you are taking one minion and hopefully trading it with another, removing two at one go.  I find it underwhelming when there aren't any of its synergy cards.

I usually find myself hoping to draw my Lightbomb.  Maybe I should run a second one.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on June 01, 2015, 03:25:05 pm
If you're struggling decks that drop lots of little minions at once maybe you want another Shadow Madness? It's really strong against Zoo decks, Mech decks, and slow control decks (because Imp Gang Boss/Harvest Golem/Sludge Belcher).

Edit: Grammar, but also Shadow Madness has uses against Grim Patron decks too.

Can you tell me how, exactly?  I get the synergy with some cards (GP spawns, if you can take a Belcher and kill it for the little dude, Harvest Golem for the extra buddy), but usually you are taking one minion and hopefully trading it with another, removing two at one go.  I find it underwhelming when there aren't any of its synergy cards.

I usually find myself hoping to draw my Lightbomb.  Maybe I should run a second one.

You seem to understand why it's good, but don't think it's good enough? I find people run the cards it's good against often enough that it always gets something to play and steal some benefit with (even when all you get is a straight 2 for 1 trade I'd say that's good enough).

The cards that it's good against are really common in today's meta.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on June 02, 2015, 03:19:14 pm
Well, why not play PO before Doomguard?
Or like, just trade in the voidcaller and take the 50/50 chance of calling Mal'ganis over Doomguard. I'm pretty sure that has a higher chance of working than hoping Doomguard doesn't discard either the PO or Mal'ganis.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Twistedarcher on August 29, 2015, 12:23:30 am
Mysterious Challenger has seemed pretty good from what I've seen. I'm also seeing it a LOT on ladder, to the point where I'm considering adding flare to my hunter deck to combat it. I'm not sure the deck is prevalent enough to justify it, but it seems like one of the most common early TGT decks.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on August 29, 2015, 12:43:10 am
Mysterious Challenger defo seemed like one of the most promising cards in the set
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on August 29, 2015, 04:20:57 am
Mysterious Challenger has seemed pretty good from what I've seen. I'm also seeing it a LOT on ladder, to the point where I'm considering adding flare to my hunter deck to combat it. I'm not sure the deck is prevalent enough to justify it, but it seems like one of the most common early TGT decks.

Hunter seems to have a pretty easy time against that deck in general, so I'm not sure if the Flare is necessary.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on August 29, 2015, 09:19:53 am
Mysterious Challenger has seemed pretty good from what I've seen. I'm also seeing it a LOT on ladder, to the point where I'm considering adding flare to my hunter deck to combat it. I'm not sure the deck is prevalent enough to justify it, but it seems like one of the most common early TGT decks.

Hunter seems to have a pretty easy time against that deck in general, so I'm not sure if the Flare is necessary.
Secret Paladin does make teaching in Kezan Mystic more justified.

It's good that Paladin secrets matter now. The class still never got much value from Mad Scientist unlike Mage and Hunter. That didn't seem fair.

You know all this time I thought you were only allowed a max of 3 secrets at a time. Was this ever the case?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on August 29, 2015, 12:08:05 pm
No, there's a Troledn video where a mage has like 9 or more secrets out. All the Mage ones and all the Paladin ones.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on September 02, 2015, 05:37:46 pm
I am playing this:
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/322470-tgt-midrane-paladin

few matches later 2x Quarter is probably too much, but other that that works great, got very high win rate with it right now.

(I am seeing hunters and paladins mostly, btw).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on September 02, 2015, 07:16:02 pm
I am playing this:
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/322470-tgt-midrane-paladin

few matches later 2x Quarter is probably too much, but other that that works great, got very high win rate with it right now.

(I am seeing hunters and paladins mostly, btw).
I like how you dropped Murloc Knight for Argus here. Particularly since you have Justicar.  It gets hard to really benefit from Murloc Knight when you eat up so much space, and getting 2 guys for 2 mana a turn when you want is already really grindy.

I was toying with a similar deck before the new season. I don't have Tirion, but I used Kel'Thuzad. It's not the same at all, but you get a unique kind of benefit with Kel'Thuzad. I also tried to make Gormok work in that deck. Probably you can get away with just 2 Truesilver for 4 mana 4 damage, but Gormok works well against some popular 4 Health minions like Azure Drake, Murloc Knight, and Savage Combatant. Too bad for Gormok that Paladin has an easy time activating his effect yet they already have Quartermaster to take advantage of that.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on September 02, 2015, 07:27:59 pm
Yah, murloc eats space, usually only makes a 2/2 or worse, is slow and needs to be protected, and it sits awkwardly in hand sometimes as you really don't want to play him naked on board. Also I don't really need that many token generators. Its one of my favourite cards but I had to cut it. Argus helps with argresion and is rarely dead.

I am thinking of Gormok, he's high on my "to make list" but I'd have to dust stuff. I've already made Justicar (Great here and ok but not amazing in Warrior) and Varyan which I got to play exactly 0 times so far, kinda regreting that one.
I'll have to play for a bit with "what if this card was gormok instead" in my head to see how often he works.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on September 02, 2015, 07:33:45 pm
gormok is awful
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on September 02, 2015, 07:59:31 pm
Why?

Wait, 4 other minions, not 4 minions. Worse than I though, but ..
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on September 02, 2015, 08:27:42 pm
It is a steaming pile of winmoar
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on September 02, 2015, 08:30:39 pm
In paladin, 3 1/1 tokens and a minibot isn't really a formidable boardstate that you are unlikely to lose from.

It's actually a pretty often board state turn 4 against non-ping classes.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on September 02, 2015, 09:47:00 pm
It is a steaming pile of winmoar
Having 4+ minions doesn't mean you're winning. Not if they're cheap tokens. Often, you get a board state like that for a turn or 2 before your opponent can make the play to take it all away with AoE. Cards like Gormok and Loatheb help solidify your position in different ways if you claimed the board early. Paladin is really good at claiming the board early what with MfB and Divine Shield. Gormok in particular punishes opponents who try to defend against your tokens with a big taunt.

It's just Paladin may not need Gormok because Paladin has other cards that fulfill its function (Truesilver, Quartermaster). As far as activating the effect goes, Paladin can do so pretty reliably. It helps that the hero power spawns a token. He's more a fun card that is ever so satisfying when he works.

I'd say don't go out of your way to craft him because he's not a star by any means. If you're lucky enough to open him like I did then give him a go.

I opened Avianna the other day. It actually feels kind of disappointing because I don't see Avianna as being so great. It's basically a cheap 5/5 on Turn 10 unless you have spare Innervates.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on September 06, 2015, 12:36:30 am
In paladin, 3 1/1 tokens and a minibot isn't really a formidable boardstate that you are unlikely to lose from.

It's actually a pretty often board state turn 4 against non-ping classes.
I wish track-o-bot could tell me what my winrate against shielded minibot into muster is.  I guarantee you it's below 40% across all decks though..
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 06, 2015, 05:35:32 am
I broke the general faceless rule of never copying a minion that costs less than 5...freaking murloc knight!  Worked nicely as a ramp Druid, got siltfin and drew a card when he removed the copy of the knight.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on September 06, 2015, 02:23:48 pm
I broke the general faceless rule of never copying a minion that costs less than 5...freaking murloc knight!  Worked nicely as a ramp Druid, got siltfin and drew a card when he removed the copy of the knight.
You know, until I got Siltfin from Murloc Knight I thought it's effect was draw a card when you summon a Murloc. It's actually draw a card when a Murloc dies, which is great for when Murloc Knight gets removed.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on September 06, 2015, 11:02:47 pm
I've just had a control warrior mirror that I lost (barely) where I've dealt 71 damage to my opponent. Stupid Justicar.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on September 07, 2015, 01:39:59 am
I broke the general faceless rule of never copying a minion that costs less than 5...freaking murloc knight!  Worked nicely as a ramp Druid, got siltfin and drew a card when he removed the copy of the knight.
Mm.  There's a was a tournament many metas ago that I entered with a double faceless Warrior, largely for the purpose of facelessing my own armorsmiths to seal games against hunter. 

You can easily copy something costing less than 5 that's key to the matchup. 
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 17, 2015, 03:01:31 pm
Chairs was curious about my Flood Paladin deck so I thought I'd post about it here, instead of in the more general thread.

From memory it looks like this:
1s:
1 x Avenge
2 x Competetive Spirit
2 x Argent Squire
1 x Southsea Deckhand
2 x Blessing of Might
2s:
1 x Echoing Ooze
2 x Shielded Minibots
2 x Knife Jugglers
3s:
2 x Silverhand Regents
2 x Muster
1 x Coghammer
2 x Divine Favor
4s:
2 x Truesilver Champion
2 x Consecrate
2 x Murloc Knight
2 x Defender of Argus
5s:
2 x Quartermasters

This decks pretty aggressive, the main goal is to flood the board and then flood it again and then flood it again. You want to be playing cards from turn 1. An ideal start might be something like:
Turn 1:
A secret or an Argent Squire
Turn 2:
Minibot or two 1 drops (Blessing of Might is fine to play on anything with a Shield or an Ooze from this point onwards).
Turn 3:
Any of your 3s or a 2 and a 1 drop. Even Divine Favour situationally can be good turn 3 because often control decks just hoard cards and might have 7 or 8 cards to your 2 or 3 at the point you play it allowing you to draw 5 cards for 3 mana.

Basically what you do with this deck is force your opponents to have either AOE answers or taunts from about turn 3 to turn 7 and if they don't, you take board control and run them over. You don't always have to hit into the taunts because you'll often be able to buff yourself into a better situation the turn after the taunt is played. A taunted creature can only remove one of your minions if you don't attack into it and your opponent has to guess what you have in hand: removing a shield is correct if you have Buffs, a Knife Juggler is correct if you have Muster, or a Silverhand Recruit is correct if you have Quartermaster. Complicating this is if you have a secret out they have to play around Avenge or Competetive Spirit. It's really hard for them to guess correctly which threat they should remove.

If they have answers all the way to turn 8 or 9 you run out of steam usually, but you can get back into it with a Divine Favour sometimes.

I feel like this is far from perfect so some advice on tweaking follows:
-If you remove any of the weapons swap out the Southsea Deckhand (with less than 5 weapons you're probably better off with an Abusive or Leper Gnome). I'm still tinkering with whether having this extra 1 drop is better than having a more expensive card (like a second Ooze or a Creeper, or even a Shredder), but it seems to be working so far so I don't want to mess with it and having a bit more reach in a Paladin deck seems like a good thing.
-Some people use Solemn Vigil instead of Divine Favour in Flood decks, but I think Divine Favour is really good against some of the more common Control matchups (Patron, Dragon Priest, Handlock).
-Gormak would get a lot of work done in this deck, but I don't have him. I think Justiciar Trueheart would be too slow. I tried Darkbane and couldn't make her fit.
-BGHs or Aldor Peacekeepers are probably pretty good in this deck though I haven't found I've needed them, you don't usually remove things with this deck, you make your opponents remove things or they fall behind too far behind to catch up.
-A second Ooze and a single Blessing of Kings would be viable without changing the way the deck plays much.
-You could replace the Ooze with a Creeper if you wanted to and I don't think it would change much either.
-Equality might be a good way to make this deck have another turn or two to win, but I personally prefer playing as if I'll always control the board by having lots of minions out.
-I tried making space for Warhorse Trainers, but there wasn't enough room for them in the crowded 3 spot. Without the Regents and Musters you don't have enough ways to flood the board with Recruits for the Trainers to take advantage.
-When tinkering I would not recommend removing the following for anything: Quartermaster, Muster, Minibot, Defender of Argus (this is a crucial card in aggro matchups), Murloc Knight or Consecrate.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on September 18, 2015, 06:46:32 pm
So, I've been opening packs and crafting, and I've getting my collection a little better.  I wanted to get youse guys's thoughts on my current Mage and Shaman builds:

Mage:

Arcane Missles x2
Mirror Image
Mana Wyrm x2

Arcane Explosion
Flamecannon
Frostbolt x2
Unstable Portal x2
Sorcerer's Apprentice

Arcane Intellect
Effigy
Mirror Entity x2

Fireball x2
Polymorph
Dalaran Aspirant
Piloted Shredder x2
Water Elemental x2

Blizzard x2
Flamestrike x2

Ragnaros

North Sea Kraken

I've won 3 games a row with this on rank 18.  I also have a second Sorc. App., and a Fallen Hero.  The only other secret I have is Vaporize, and I don't have Mad Scientist yet.  EDIT: Should I swap NSK out for Dr. Boom?

Shaman:

Earth Shock
Forked Lightning
Lightning Bolt x2
Rockbiter Weapon

Ancestral Knowledge
Crackle
Flametongue Totem x2
Totem Golem x2

Hex x2
Lightning Storm x2
Tuskarr Totemic x2
Unbound Elemental x2

Defender of Argus
Piloted Shredder x2
Windspeaker

Bloodlust
Thunder Bluff Valiant x2

Fire Elemental x2

Dr. Boom

Ragnaros

I've only played two casual games with this - lost to a very aggressive Hunter, won against a rather timid Priest.  I'm unsure about leaving in the Windspeaker, and wondering if I should have more than one Bloodlust.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 18, 2015, 07:01:59 pm
Some of it depends on what cards you have, so take what you will from that:
Mage:
With all the spells you have I'd definitely make space for a second Sorceror's Apprentice. Flamewakers and Mad Scientists would be good if you've unlocked those wings. I am just going to assume you don't have these cards, but Archmage Antonidas and the new mage Legendary would probably be better than Kraken here. You could also try out a Pyroblast in its place if you have that as a finisher.

Azure Drakes are classic in this style of mage deck as well if you have those yet (they're only Rares so they'd be easier for you to achieve if you don't have them yet as opposed to some of the other more expensive recommendations).

Candidates for things that you could take out are 1 Flamestrike, Arcane Explosion and the secrets (I don't think they're worth it without Mad Scientists).

Shaman:
Bearing in mind that I don't play Shaman in Constructed much, this deck looks pretty solid, but I'd replace a Lightning Bolt with Crackle. Windspeaker could probably be replaced with a second Defender of Argus. I'm not sure about two Bloodlusts, but I think with that style of deck you probably want one.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on September 18, 2015, 07:05:43 pm
Some of it depends on what cards you have, so take what you will from that:
Mage:
With all the spells you have I'd definitely make space for a second Sorceror's Apprentice. Flamewakers and Mad Scientists would be good if you've unlocked those wings. I am just going to assume you don't have these cards, but Archmage Antonidas and the new mage Legendary would probably be better than Kraken here. You could also try out a Pyroblast in its place if you have that as a finisher.

Azure Drakes are classic in this style of mage deck as well if you have those yet (they're only Rares so they'd be easier for you to achieve if you don't have them yet as opposed to some of the other more expensive recommendations).

Candidates for things that you could take out are 1 Flamestrike, Arcane Explosion and the secrets (I don't think they're worth it without Mad Scientists).

Shaman:
Bearing in mind that I don't play Shaman in Constructed much, this deck looks pretty solid, but I'd replace a Lightning Bolt with Crackle. Windspeaker could probably be replaced with a second Defender of Argus. I'm not sure about two Bloodlusts, but I think with that style of deck you probably want one.

Thanks!  I have neither Flamewakers nor MS's, unfortunately, nor any of the Mage legendaries.  I had Pyroblast in the top spot, but KingZog recommended I swap that out for NSK.  I can probably craft up some Azure Drakes in a couple days or so.

Looks like I need to craft another DoA and another Crackle!
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 18, 2015, 07:11:06 pm
...

Thanks!  I have neither Flamewakers nor MS's, unfortunately, nor any of the Mage legendaries.  I had Pyroblast in the top spot, but KingZog recommended I swap that out for NSK.  I can probably craft up some Azure Drakes in a couple days or so.

Looks like I need to craft another DoA and another Crackle!

Maybe try switching back and forth between Pyro and NSK. See which you like more. I don't run Pyroblast in my mage deck, but I run Antonidas in the big spot next to Boom. Pyroblast seems better than NSK to me, but I might be wrong, I don't actually have lots of experience running either.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on September 18, 2015, 08:22:18 pm
...

Thanks!  I have neither Flamewakers nor MS's, unfortunately, nor any of the Mage legendaries.  I had Pyroblast in the top spot, but KingZog recommended I swap that out for NSK.  I can probably craft up some Azure Drakes in a couple days or so.

Looks like I need to craft another DoA and another Crackle!

Maybe try switching back and forth between Pyro and NSK. See which you like more. I don't run Pyroblast in my mage deck, but I run Antonidas in the big spot next to Boom. Pyroblast seems better than NSK to me, but I might be wrong, I don't actually have lots of experience running either.

Pyroblast is great if you've managed to whittle down your opponent to 10 Health by turn 10 or so.  If you haven't, it's a dead card in your hand, or else you feel really bad using it on a big minion, in which case you usually know you've lost already.

NSK can get rid of a decent-sized minion, provide board presence, and then usually provide almost as much damage on the next turn anyway.  Most people don't hang on to answers to a 9/7 by the time you use it.  And it's cheaper!
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 18, 2015, 10:39:16 pm
The higher in rank you climb, the more answers you'll see.  I'd take Boom over NSK.  Even if they BGH Boom, you get value from the bots.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on September 19, 2015, 03:07:48 am
Dr. Boom is such a huge presence that you really need a reason not to run him.  That might be because you're running an extremely tight combo (Patron), because you want to end your curve early (aggro) or occasionally because you don't want to introduce a BGH target (although as ashersky says, the Boombots are still far from worthless).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 19, 2015, 02:21:32 pm
I didn't realize you weren't running Boom in your mage deck. Boom is better to run than NSK or Pyro for sure.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on September 19, 2015, 02:34:38 pm
I took out the Secrets and NSK, and slotted in another Sorcerer's Apprentice, a Polymorph: Boar, a Spellslinger, and Dr. Boom.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on September 19, 2015, 02:41:58 pm
I just pulled Neptulon out of an Unstable Portal:

(http://i.imgur.com/C4zNfVw.png)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on September 25, 2015, 11:41:12 am
Just made it to rank 12 with my awesome Mage deck!
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: EgorK on September 27, 2015, 11:58:23 am
I am surprised how Freeze Mage is good in current rank 3-4 meta. 16-8 during last week
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on September 27, 2015, 01:50:29 pm
I am surprised how Freeze Mage is good in current rank 3-4 meta. 16-8 during last week
I find there's less aggro heavy stuff like Zoolock these days. The slower decks just don't compete well if you get off a good Antonidas turn.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on September 27, 2015, 04:59:48 pm
I am surprised how Freeze Mage is good in current rank 3-4 meta. 16-8 during last week
I find there's less aggro heavy stuff like Zoolock these days. The slower decks just don't compete well if you get off a good Antonidas turn.

I imagine it's good vs. Secret Pally. It's not super aggressive, and Doomsayer doesn't care about avenge or Noble Sac.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on September 27, 2015, 08:22:57 pm
Yesterday I hit legend for the first time ever! Running a midrange (no secret) paladin variant with two equalities cos that really shuts down demon handlock and is great against secret pally, patron and control warrior.
I'm so happy. I was at rank 1 with 5 stars a total of seven times before I won the necessary game!

Of course now im just screwing around with weird decks I dont know very well, and usually losing. :P
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on September 27, 2015, 11:15:13 pm
Legend rank is more fun to play than ranks 5-1. Everyone stops caring and you see lots of funny decks.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on September 28, 2015, 01:26:08 am
I just love that my Mage deck has a counter for essentially everything.  You dropped a Murloc Knight and flooded the board with minions?  Flamestrike.  Oh, you tried that again?  Here's the other Flamestrike.  Face Hunter?  Let me just drop these Mirror Images and kill every minion you put on the board.  I think the one weakness is Secret Hunter - it's just too aggressive, and deals too well with the few minions I throw on the board myself.  Everything else is just too weak to board clears.

My favorite part is that it's mostly just common cards - I haven't finished Naxx, so I don't have any Mad Scientists.  I don't have Doomsayers or Ice Block, so I can't run Freeze Mage.  I find Mech Mage distasteful (a scrub thing to say, I know, but whatever).  So, yeah.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on September 28, 2015, 01:30:47 am
I find Mech Mage distasteful (a scrub thing to say, I know, but whatever).  So, yeah.

Nah, a scrub thing to say would be "Mech Mage is cheap; anyone who plays it is a loser that smells." It's totally valid to express that you don't prefer an archetype or playstyle, or even express that you feel the game would be better/more fun for you if the game was different in a way that made Mech Mage not as good. But that's nowhere near "scrub".
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on September 28, 2015, 08:59:26 am
I am surprised how Freeze Mage is good in current rank 3-4 meta. 16-8 during last week

When I hear freeze mage I think Thalnos and Alex and figure it will be a long while before I can run that.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on September 28, 2015, 09:02:43 am
I am surprised how Freeze Mage is good in current rank 3-4 meta. 16-8 during last week

When I hear freeze mage I think Thalnos and Alex and figure it will be a long while before I can run that.

I collect dust at a ridiculous rate. All I can say is practice arena :P Also, how many packs do people open on average everyday? Because people always say how unlucky they are with packs, but I dont think its that. I open on average 1, possibly more than 1, everyday. Sometimes 3-4 if I do a lot of arena runs.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on September 28, 2015, 09:06:27 am
Yes, I average 1 pack a day. Effectively ~60 dust a day. I am not fond of arena, though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: chairs on September 28, 2015, 09:11:26 am
So I've been trying to abuse knife juggler to play ranked in the 20s while I finish getting basics for all classes.  here's my current decklist using Shaman - thoughts?

2 x Leper Gnome
2 x Shieldbearer
2 x Ancestral Spirit
2 x Echoing Ooze
2 x Haunted Creeper
2 x Knife Juggler
2 x Loot Hoarder
2 x Murloc Tidehunter
2 x Youthful Brewmaster
2 x Feral Spirit
2 x Demolisher
2 x Harvest Golem
1 x Imp Master
1 x Tuskarr Totemic
2 x Fen Creeper
1 x Kel'Thuzad
1 x Ragnaros the Firelord

I'd probably replace Tuskarr with another Imp Master if I could get there. Shieldbearers help me avoid my knife juggler trading early, but I'm open to suggestions in that slot (and really in any slot).

If I can make an all-neutral version of the decklist that's effective even if only at low ranks, that'd be sweet.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on September 28, 2015, 09:19:15 am
If you want an early Taunt, I'd switch to Warlock and slip Voidwalkers in that slot.  Warlock has plenty of Knife Juggler shenanigans - Imp-losion, Imp Gang Boss, Dreadsteed - they also have a lot of cheaper minions, just with drawbacks.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on September 28, 2015, 09:47:27 am
So I've been trying to abuse knife juggler to play ranked in the 20s while I finish getting basics for all classes.  here's my current decklist using Shaman - thoughts?

2 x Leper Gnome
2 x Shieldbearer
2 x Ancestral Spirit
2 x Echoing Ooze
2 x Haunted Creeper
2 x Knife Juggler
2 x Loot Hoarder
2 x Murloc Tidehunter
2 x Youthful Brewmaster
2 x Feral Spirit
2 x Demolisher
2 x Harvest Golem
1 x Imp Master
1 x Tuskarr Totemic
2 x Fen Creeper
1 x Kel'Thuzad
1 x Ragnaros the Firelord

I'd probably replace Tuskarr with another Imp Master if I could get there. Shieldbearers help me avoid my knife juggler trading early, but I'm open to suggestions in that slot (and really in any slot).

If I can make an all-neutral version of the decklist that's effective even if only at low ranks, that'd be sweet.

You should run Sludge Belcher over Fen Creeper for sure.

Instead of Shieldbearer, I think you should have something that does more than just slow your opponent down. Cheap removal would be great, but a lot of those cards are class basics, unfortunately. Stuff like Elven Archer or Argent Squire will help against 2/1s at least.

Demolisher isn't very good, it's super easy to remove. You could run a minion with better stats, or an ability that actually does something before it gets removed, like Spider Tank, Wolfrider, Scarlet Crusader, Shattered Sun Cleric, etc.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on September 28, 2015, 10:00:06 am
So I've been trying to abuse knife juggler to play ranked in the 20s while I finish getting basics for all classes.  here's my current decklist using Shaman - thoughts?

2 x Leper Gnome
2 x Shieldbearer
2 x Ancestral Spirit
2 x Echoing Ooze
2 x Haunted Creeper
2 x Knife Juggler
2 x Loot Hoarder
2 x Murloc Tidehunter
2 x Youthful Brewmaster
2 x Feral Spirit
2 x Demolisher
2 x Harvest Golem
1 x Imp Master
1 x Tuskarr Totemic
2 x Fen Creeper
1 x Kel'Thuzad
1 x Ragnaros the Firelord

I'd probably replace Tuskarr with another Imp Master if I could get there. Shieldbearers help me avoid my knife juggler trading early, but I'm open to suggestions in that slot (and really in any slot).

If I can make an all-neutral version of the decklist that's effective even if only at low ranks, that'd be sweet.

You could do Shaman Murlock if you want to have cheap drops with synergy that like Knife Juggler.  Plus Neptulon.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: chairs on September 28, 2015, 11:33:47 am
So I've been trying to abuse knife juggler to play ranked in the 20s while I finish getting basics for all classes.  here's my current decklist using Shaman - thoughts?

2 x Leper Gnome
2 x Shieldbearer
2 x Ancestral Spirit
2 x Echoing Ooze
2 x Haunted Creeper
2 x Knife Juggler
2 x Loot Hoarder
2 x Murloc Tidehunter
2 x Youthful Brewmaster
2 x Feral Spirit
2 x Demolisher
2 x Harvest Golem
1 x Imp Master
1 x Tuskarr Totemic
2 x Fen Creeper
1 x Kel'Thuzad
1 x Ragnaros the Firelord

I'd probably replace Tuskarr with another Imp Master if I could get there. Shieldbearers help me avoid my knife juggler trading early, but I'm open to suggestions in that slot (and really in any slot).

If I can make an all-neutral version of the decklist that's effective even if only at low ranks, that'd be sweet.

You should run Sludge Belcher over Fen Creeper for sure.

Instead of Shieldbearer, I think you should have something that does more than just slow your opponent down. Cheap removal would be great, but a lot of those cards are class basics, unfortunately. Stuff like Elven Archer or Argent Squire will help against 2/1s at least.

Demolisher isn't very good, it's super easy to remove. You could run a minion with better stats, or an ability that actually does something before it gets removed, like Spider Tank, Wolfrider, Scarlet Crusader, Shattered Sun Cleric, etc.

So I know Demolisher is terrible, but it's ironically what won me my last game, staying on the board for 5 turns.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on September 28, 2015, 01:39:12 pm
So I know Demolisher is terrible, but it's ironically what won me my last game, staying on the board for 5 turns.

If you were in a position where your Demolisher could survive for 5 turns, you already won the game thanks to something else.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 28, 2015, 01:56:11 pm
Yeah, Demolisher doesn't even have a bunch of good synergies that might make you want to run it (Mech stuff, a zillion taunts or Hobgoblin). I also wonder why you're running Ooze without any buffers and just one Tuskar. It looks like you're trying to flood the board (Ooze, Creeper, Feral, Harvest, Imp Master, Kel, Tuskar, Tidehunter, plus Youthful Brewmasters to bounce things) and overwhelm your opponent but you don't have any Bloodlust? That's what Shamans do when they overrun the board, they cast Bloodlust and then win because it gives them +9/+12/+15 damage all at once.

Also if you have Sludge Belchers they are better than Fen Creepers, but if you don't Fen is okay though I'd probably prefer Senjins to get them out a turn earlier.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on September 28, 2015, 01:58:27 pm
There was a time back in closed beta where Demolisher was a legit card.  It was a strange time.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on September 28, 2015, 02:03:32 pm
Also if you have Sludge Belchers they are better than Fen Creepers, but if you don't Fen is okay though I'd probably prefer Senjins to get them out a turn earlier.

Is it possible to have Kel'Thuzad but no Belchers?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 28, 2015, 02:11:53 pm
Also if you have Sludge Belchers they are better than Fen Creepers, but if you don't Fen is okay though I'd probably prefer Senjins to get them out a turn earlier.

Is it possible to have Kel'Thuzad but no Belchers?

Good point, Kel is the second last card you unlock (Avenge is the last), so you definitely have Belchers. Use Belchers, they are the best 5 mana taunt card.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on September 28, 2015, 02:37:03 pm
(neutral)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: chairs on September 28, 2015, 02:43:03 pm
Yeah, Demolisher doesn't even have a bunch of good synergies that might make you want to run it (Mech stuff, a zillion taunts or Hobgoblin). I also wonder why you're running Ooze without any buffers and just one Tuskar. It looks like you're trying to flood the board (Ooze, Creeper, Feral, Harvest, Imp Master, Kel, Tuskar, Tidehunter, plus Youthful Brewmasters to bounce things) and overwhelm your opponent but you don't have any Bloodlust? That's what Shamans do when they overrun the board, they cast Bloodlust and then win because it gives them +9/+12/+15 damage all at once.

Also if you have Sludge Belchers they are better than Fen Creepers, but if you don't Fen is okay though I'd probably prefer Senjins to get them out a turn earlier.

Mostly I was trying to do funny things with knife juggler.

My goal is to build a completely neutral deck - it's not supposed to be legend tier, this is just something I can build for quests and levelling heros to 10.

That being said, I have Belchers and I'll definitely throw them in. I'm honestly open to completely retooling the deck, but I have no good mechanism to share my current collection so you guys can give me good deck-building advice.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 28, 2015, 02:46:17 pm
(neutral)

Fair point, Druid of the Claw are slightly better than them, but since we're talking Shaman. Sludge Belchers ftw.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on September 28, 2015, 02:49:15 pm
If you want to keep it neutral for the novelty then keep the Bloodlust out, but it really is a strong natural fit for this deck.

Shattered Sun Cleric is a good neutral card to pair with Oozes if you want to go full Neutral. Scarlet Crusader is a good sticky 3 drop as well. I'd probably prefer both of them to Demolisher in this deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on September 28, 2015, 03:01:58 pm
(neutral)

Fair point, Druid of the Claw are slightly better than them, but since we're talking Shaman. Sludge Belchers ftw.

I would run Sludge Belcher over Druid of the Claw in Druid too if I had to choose between the two.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: chairs on September 28, 2015, 03:32:53 pm
Moving my deckbuilding question out of general discussion, since it's a pretty specific ask.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on September 30, 2015, 01:43:11 pm
(neutral)

Fair point, Druid of the Claw are slightly better than them, but since we're talking Shaman. Sludge Belchers ftw.

I would run Sludge Belcher over Druid of the Claw in Druid too if I had to choose between the two.

I wouldn't, and don't. 4/4 haste is a often a gamewinner with Roar.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on September 30, 2015, 02:05:54 pm
I wouldn't, and don't. 4/4 haste is a often a gamewinner with Roar.

Well, the only Druid deck I play is mill Druid so I probably see these situations much less often because of that, but choosing the charge option mostly seems like an edge case to me, and the taunt option is clearly a lot weaker than Belcher.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on September 30, 2015, 02:34:52 pm
I wouldn't, and don't. 4/4 haste is a often a gamewinner with Roar.

Well, the only Druid deck I play is mill Druid so I probably see these situations much less often because of that, but choosing the charge option mostly seems like an edge case to me, and the taunt option is clearly a lot weaker than Belcher.
I find Druid of the Claw way more annoying than Belcher when I play Priest. Lots of neat Priest Stuff with 4-5 health that gets killed with 4 attack + ping. Plus you can't SW:Pain the Druid of the Claw then attack a 1/2 Slime, getting a heal target while you have Northshire on the board.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on September 30, 2015, 04:34:15 pm
I wouldn't, and don't. 4/4 haste is a often a gamewinner with Roar.

Well, the only Druid deck I play is mill Druid so I probably see these situations much less often because of that, but choosing the charge option mostly seems like an edge case to me, and the taunt option is clearly a lot weaker than Belcher.
I find Druid of the Claw way more annoying than Belcher when I play Priest. Lots of neat Priest Stuff with 4-5 health that gets killed with 4 attack + ping. Plus you can't SW:Pain the Druid of the Claw then attack a 1/2 Slime, getting a heal target while you have Northshire on the board.

That's a good point. Priest happens to be another class that I hardly ever play.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on October 02, 2015, 11:50:13 am
I'm just surprised there isn't a Druid of the Talon yet.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on October 02, 2015, 01:11:52 pm
I opened the last Murloc I needed for the complete Murloc collection (a Warleader) and decided to try out Murloc Paladin. It's really fun. All games have felt close so far and I've won a lot more than I've lost, but I'm playing at 19-17ish rank right now so a lot of the decks are pretty janky.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on October 02, 2015, 01:12:49 pm
Mrgrglrllrlglrlg

You're counting Elite Tauren Chieftain as a Murloc, right? :)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on October 02, 2015, 02:36:33 pm
New goal for my collection!
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on October 02, 2015, 03:31:19 pm
You play ETC.  Cheeky Zoolock plays Knife Juggler into I am Murloc and wipes everything but your Murloc Knight.  You Inspire and play I am Murloc and swing for 15 damage

Live the dream.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: chairs on October 02, 2015, 03:40:23 pm
Mrgrglrllrlglrlg

You're counting Elite Tauren Chieftain as a Murloc, right? :)

?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on October 02, 2015, 03:48:02 pm
Mrgrglrllrlglrlg

You're counting Elite Tauren Chieftain as a Murloc, right? :)

?

One of the Power Chord cards that ETC can give you is "I am Murloc".
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on October 02, 2015, 04:00:06 pm
Mrgrglrllrlglrlg

You're counting Elite Tauren Chieftain as a Murloc, right? :)

?

One of the Power Chord cards that ETC can give you is "I am Murloc".
Making it one of only three cards related to Murlocs that are not murlocs themselves.  The other 2 are Hungry Crab and Neptulon.  Neptulon is shaman.  Hungry crab is more anti-Murloc than pro Murloc, though if it's a Divine Favor deck it might not be awful.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: chairs on October 02, 2015, 05:17:45 pm
I just figured Hungry Crab was a good way to eat a 1/1 murloc (like the one called by the... Tidehunter?) to get a net buff. I guess it does make more sense as a counter-Murloc card though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on October 02, 2015, 05:26:49 pm
I just figured Hungry Crab was a good way to eat a 1/1 murloc (like the one called by the... Tidehunter?) to get a net buff. I guess it does make more sense as a counter-Murloc card though.

It was designed to counter Murlocs.  Turn 3 Murloc Tidehunter into Hungry crab is a Spider tank and a 0 mana 2/1.  A 0 mana 2/1 is not that exciting and not enough upside for lining up a combo.  In many decks, a 0 mana 2/1 isn't even playable.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on October 02, 2015, 05:30:46 pm
I just figured Hungry Crab was a good way to eat a 1/1 murloc (like the one called by the... Tidehunter?) to get a net buff. I guess it does make more sense as a counter-Murloc card though.

It was designed to counter Murlocs.  Turn 3 Murloc Tidehunter into Hungry crab is a Spider tank and a 0 mana 2/1.  A 0 mana 2/1 is not that exciting and not enough upside for lining up a combo.  In many decks, a 0 mana 2/1 isn't even playable.

Yeah, it's not a great combo and it anti combos with all the Murloc synergy cards (Old Murk Eye, Warleader, etc).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: chairs on October 02, 2015, 07:10:34 pm
Somebody mentioned Murloc Paladin. Why paladin? I'd think Murloc would work better with mage or hunter or even druid/priest.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on October 02, 2015, 11:08:48 pm
(http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/hearthstone.gamepedia.com/6/6e/Murloc_Knight%2822362%29.png)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on October 03, 2015, 01:06:23 pm
^---That's the reason.

But also for non-Murloc cards Paladin has a good set. Shielded Mini-bot and Muster for Battle are so good you can just play them regardless of what else you have in your hand. Avenge is a great secret in an aggro deck. Truesilver Champion and Consecrate are also just really strong cards on their own. Divine Favour is a great way to redraw your hand against a Control deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on October 11, 2015, 12:47:48 pm
Getting really tired of Innervate.

Innervate Innervate boom

Innervate Innervate thaurissan

Card is just not even remotely balanced.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on October 11, 2015, 06:18:11 pm
Getting really tired of Innervate.

Innervate Innervate boom

Innervate Innervate thaurissan

Card is just not even remotely balanced.
Hmm.  While I agree that this can be frustrating, I'm not sure it's as OP as some class cards out there.  Double Innervate is utterly devastating early, but you don't draw double Innervate early on that often.  Even when you do, sometimes your opponent has some hard removal and then you're super sad. Thaurissan isn't even that good with double innervate early cos it can't hit that many cards, you've just spent a bunch.  If he survives, obviously it's amazing, but any hard removal and you've just thrown away 3 cards for not much gain.

I actually find Innervate more frustrating when it gives druids that one extra damage they need to kill you after a force-savage combo.  You've been staying just out of range all game and they topdeck one of those 3 cards to finish you (having drawn less than half their deck and already spent an Innervate and a Force-as-removal).  Infuriating.

But yeah overall I think Innervate, while sometimes it just wins games, is slightly less bonkers than, say, shielded minibot.  Which can also sometimes win a game on its own (or at least set up the overwhelming momentum that leads to a win), and doesn't require you to also have a stompy-stompy card in hand.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on October 11, 2015, 07:46:25 pm
Getting really tired of Innervate.

Innervate Innervate boom

Innervate Innervate thaurissan

Card is just not even remotely balanced.

Stop playing.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on October 11, 2015, 10:13:16 pm
Ridiculously good idea zog
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on October 11, 2015, 11:07:30 pm
Ridiculously good idea zog

What can I say. I know what's best :P

EDIT: or, you can just play arena. That's mostly all I've been playing, and even with murloc knight, that only gets ridiculous once every 2-3 runs.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on October 14, 2015, 04:45:18 am
Control Warrior mirrors are great: "I have to play a card here, so I'll play the weapon to deny my opponent the chance to play Harrison."
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on October 15, 2015, 12:51:00 pm
What archetypes will benefit form the removal of Patron Warrior the most?  People seem to mostly say Secradin, with the "best deck is gone, second best deck is best deck" line of thinking, but Secradin has a lot of patterns in it and narrowing the field allows other decks to tech against those patterns more.  I would expect an unpatterned deck, like midrange druid, to benefit more.  Midrange druid also gets to run BGH more without it whiffing on Patron Warrior, which is nice.  Fel Reaver gets caught in the crossfire and I feel like I have to expect Mechmage to take a hit, and that's disappointing for me and my favorite deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on October 15, 2015, 01:25:08 pm
I would think that control decks in general benefit when a strong OTK gets removed from the meta, and other decks with similar match-ups as Patron benefit when (some) people stop playing decks with good Patron match-ups. For the time being, I'm planning on maining Control Warrior.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on October 15, 2015, 03:05:38 pm
I would think that control decks in general benefit when a strong OTK gets removed from the meta, and other decks with similar match-ups as Patron benefit when (some) people stop playing decks with good Patron match-ups. For the time being, I'm planning on maining Control Warrior.
Control Warrior was statistically Patron Warrior's worst matchup.

Demonlock handlock, second worst.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on October 15, 2015, 04:17:06 pm
Consensus seems to be that Patron was doing a lot to hold Aggro in check, so we could see a new flood of Aggro decks alongside Dragon Priests to prey on them.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on October 21, 2015, 09:40:40 pm
Just got golden Warrior. My third golden hero.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on October 22, 2015, 05:26:00 pm
Stop playing.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on October 22, 2015, 05:29:11 pm
Just got golden Warrior. My third golden hero.

I recently got my 2nd golden, Paladin.

Next to go is probably Warrior (~280, but I play that the most) or Rogue (~380, but needs to get a viable deck).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on October 22, 2015, 06:41:31 pm
Meanwhile I only have one level 60 hero. My Mage is at 58 though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on October 22, 2015, 06:47:55 pm
Play War of Omens and try to get a level 28 hero.  That'll show you.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: chairs on October 22, 2015, 06:51:13 pm
war of omens?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on October 22, 2015, 11:11:43 pm
Play War of Omens and try to get a level 28 hero.  That'll show you.

Oi. Get your scrub game outta the Hearthstone thread! Geeeeeezzzz!
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on October 23, 2015, 09:54:43 am
I would think that control decks in general benefit when a strong OTK gets removed from the meta, and other decks with similar match-ups as Patron benefit when (some) people stop playing decks with good Patron match-ups. For the time being, I'm planning on maining Control Warrior.
Control Warrior was statistically Patron Warrior's worst matchup.

Demonlock handlock, second worst.

CW has 60/40, i believe Demonlock had it better than that.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on October 23, 2015, 10:28:18 am
Play War of Omens and try to get a level 28 hero.  That'll show you.

Oi. Get your scrub game outta the Hearthstone thread! Geeeeeezzzz!
It's arguably more like Dominion than MakingFun, though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: AdamH on October 24, 2015, 01:56:16 pm
Whoa, Heisenberg, is that you? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt3Fx6Bwi_w&t=24m45s) Nice job ;) YMYOSL
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on October 24, 2015, 02:25:59 pm
Whoa, Heisenberg, is that you? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt3Fx6Bwi_w&t=24m45s) Nice job ;) YMYOSL

What is YMYOSL?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: AdamH on October 24, 2015, 02:27:21 pm
Whoa, Heisenberg, is that you? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt3Fx6Bwi_w&t=24m45s) Nice job ;) YMYOSL

What is YMYOSL?


<----

No doubt Kolento is really good, but he whines a lot about RNG when he should have just played better. I'm awful at Hearthstone and if I can find things like that, there have to be plenty of them.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on October 24, 2015, 03:16:27 pm
Whoa, Heisenberg, is that you? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt3Fx6Bwi_w&t=24m45s) Nice job ;) YMYOSL

What is YMYOSL?


<----

No doubt Kolento is really good, but he whines a lot about RNG when he should have just played better. I'm awful at Hearthstone and if I can find things like that, there have to be plenty of them.

You make your own shuffle luck. Just figured it as I was reading your post :P should have guessed. I agree, but I've played enough hearthstone to know that if your draw is bad there is nothing you can do about. He drew rag, neptulon, boom, two 5 drops and not useful spells. I think what more applicable to say is that he's playing a weak deck against a strong one. It's not surprising he loses badly. Did he make his own luck? Kind of? But he could be playing control warrior and still draw terribly and that is luck. Just as long as he doesn't blame luck all the time it's fine :P I mean, you can't make your own Piloted Shredder luck :P
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on October 24, 2015, 05:51:28 pm
I decided to give Midrange a break and tried out the low curve Hybrid list Forsen used in the recent 24 hour laddering challenge (http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/349412-forsens-hunter-play-it-cool-marathon-2015) (note that the Freezing Trap should be Explosive).  I win streaked from 9 to 6 and finally reached the chest goal of 5 just as I hit the gold cap.  (I accepted my "gatekeepers" rage friend request as it only seemed fair: they got suitably sweary after we negotiated the correct language in which to insult my lineage.)  I can highly recommend the list if you're looking to climb through that sort of range.  It was slowing down towards the end, but we do at least know that it's possible to use it to hit legend within 20 hours...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on October 30, 2015, 05:55:05 pm
If you could have any Legendary for constructed play, what would it be?

I guess I'm looking for a top 10...I assume Boom is there.  Is Ysera a must have?  The new Warrior one?  Voljin?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on October 30, 2015, 06:10:21 pm
If you could have any Legendary for constructed play, what would it be?

I guess I'm looking for a top 10...I assume Boom is there.  Is Ysera a must have?  The new Warrior one?  Voljin?

Boom and Sylvanas are probably the most important.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: chairs on October 30, 2015, 06:24:44 pm
Boom is crazy good.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on October 30, 2015, 08:30:17 pm
If you could have any Legendary for constructed play, what would it be?

I guess I'm looking for a top 10...I assume Boom is there.  Is Ysera a must have?  The new Warrior one?  Voljin?

Boom. Sylvannas is good. Ysera is good. Voljin is not essential unless you play priest, and even then you can manage without him. Antonidas, Grommash, Tirion are all essential for their class, although since secret pally Tirion not as much. Jaraxxus is worth it too. I crafted Varian Wrynn, and never used him after testing him a bit. He's too slow for the fast decks. Alextrasa is good to have too.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on November 01, 2015, 10:54:00 pm
I'm playing Control Hunter for some fun now. It's not too terrible. I'm running this list, that I came up with in a few minutes. I've beaten control Warrior, secret pally (that didnt play mysterious challenger), every aggro hunter I faced. Powershot is amazing against all these aggro decks that spread wide with low health minions.

x2 Arcane Shot
x2 Explosive Trap
x1 Lock and Load
x2 Quick Shot
x2 King's Elekk
x2 Steemwheedle Sniper
x2 Eaglehorn Bow
x2 Animal Companion
x1 Deadly Shot
x2 Kill Command
x2 Powershot
x1 Unleash the Hounds
x1 Refreshment Vendor
x2 Sludge Belcher
x2 Savannah Highmane
x1 Sylvannas Windrunner
x1 Dr. Boom
x1 Gahz'rilla
x1 Sneed's Old Shredder

The Refreshment Vendor used to be a Multi Shot, but it wasn't useful enough. It could use refining, but because there's so few decks running hard removal, besides control warrior and a few polymorphs, Gahz'rilla actually is decent. I've won two game by making him 48 attack. You win the jousts very often. I might take out 1 steemwheedle Sniper. They haven't been amazing, but I think they're still pretty essential. I picked Sneeds as my late game drop because it can take a lot of cards to kill, which is what I need against control, and 5 attack is all I need vs aggro.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on November 02, 2015, 05:28:38 am
Powershot is amazing against all these aggro decks that spread wide with low health minions.
This is true.  So often it's just a 1-mana cheaper consecration.  It's a shame that the hunter hero power is so terrible for control-type decks, otherwise I could see it actually doing fairly well on ladder.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on November 02, 2015, 12:57:01 pm
After reading this I figured I'd try it out given what cards I have. I don't have Gahz or Sneed's, but have most of the other cards, and am replacing those two cards with King Krush and Troggzor. Don't have 2 Snipers so I just put in a Flare, which is honestly really good in the current meta; all I see are the Secret classes these days. I'm also running BGH instead of Deadly Shot.

One thing I'm really impressed with is Lock and Load. It's a really fun card and can win you the game singlehandedly. I think I'd put in Dreadscale if I had it, but maybe Ash can make a variation of this that incorporates it?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on November 02, 2015, 02:38:49 pm
I'd try dreadscale if I had it. Lock and Load is sometimes amazing, sometimes dead, which is why I hve only 1. King Krush is interesting. It's less burst dmg, but it's immidiate dmg which might be better. I also don't have troggzor but am interested to see how it works out.

I didn't put flare in, but maybe I should. Maybe instead of 1 sniper, since they are a little awkward.

EDIT: I don't know why I put deadly shot and not bgh. Seems like bgh is alms it always better.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: chairs on November 02, 2015, 02:53:21 pm
I feel like my big issue on ladder right now is that as I climb I run into people that have cards I'm simply missing, e.g. my most recent loss to a dragon priest that just had all sorts of answers and then finished with ysera and velen's chosen.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on November 02, 2015, 03:20:10 pm
Some decks need certain cards, but there are decks that don't need particularly difficult cards to acquire. Face Hunter doesn't need any Legendaries at all.

Dragon Priest in particular is an expensive deck. You need like 2-6 Legendaries (Chillmaw, Ysera, then optionally some of the other standard ones like Boom, Sylvanas, Harrison, Voljin, etc), 4-7 Epics (Twilight Guardians for sure, Light Bombs for sure, Cabals maybe, BGH maybe). Most of the common cards you need are cards from deep Blackrock Mountain wings. The only deck I can think of that has more Dust in it is Control Warrior.

Most other common decks are not nearly as expensive though. Secrets Paladin can get by with just the Challengers (Epics), Face Hunter and Zoolock only need Rares. Mech Mage only needs Boom. Mid range decks are getting a little Dustier needing a few big Legendaries, but you don't need lots of cards to have success on the ladder.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: chairs on November 02, 2015, 03:35:30 pm
I'm seriously considering playing doctor draw again.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on November 02, 2015, 04:05:28 pm
Handlock is about as expensive as control warrior, especially if you count the hybrid dragon or demon decks.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on November 02, 2015, 04:12:07 pm
Handlock is about as expensive as control warrior, especially if you count the hybrid dragon or demon decks.

Not really. Basic handlock just needs Jaraxxus, maybe a couple of other legendaries, and a few epics. Control Warrior needs Ysera, Boom, Grommash, Justicar, Sylvanas, Alexstrasza, and at least two out of Varian/Harrison/Baron Geddon, plus at least as many epics as Handlock does. The hybrid dragon or demon decks can get quite expensive though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on November 02, 2015, 04:40:30 pm
Handlock is about as expensive as control warrior, especially if you count the hybrid dragon or demon decks.

Not really. Basic handlock just needs Jaraxxus, maybe a couple of other legendaries, and a few epics. Control Warrior needs Ysera, Boom, Grommash, Justicar, Sylvanas, Alexstrasza, and at least two out of Varian/Harrison/Baron Geddon, plus at least as many epics as Handlock does. The hybrid dragon or demon decks can get quite expensive though.

That would be a pretty heavy Control Warrior list, but I agree that it's typically going to be more expensive than Handlock.  I'm curious about your last set of 3, as they all have wildly different roles: is the theme supposed to be "tech"?  In any case, I think at least two is overstating it: Varian is arguably bad, and you don't want Harrison unless you're gunning for weapons.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on November 02, 2015, 04:51:29 pm
That would be a pretty heavy Control Warrior list, but I agree that it's typically going to be more expensive than Handlock.  I'm curious about your last set of 3, as they all have wildly different roles: is the theme supposed to be "tech"?  In any case, I think at least two is overstating it: Varian is arguably bad, and you don't want Harrison unless you're gunning for weapons.

Well, Geddon and Harrison are tech, and I think you should run Varian if you're not running both Geddon and Harrison. I'm running Varian and Geddon now.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on November 05, 2015, 01:39:11 pm
Opened a new Legendary! But it's Sky Cap'n Kragg :(. Anyone seen a good use for him? He seems really awkwardly placed, but maybe just because Pirates are so weak. Probably just hold onto until the next expansion then try Pirates again.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on November 05, 2015, 02:03:11 pm
Opened a new Legendary! But it's Sky Cap'n Kragg :(. Anyone seen a good use for him? He seems really awkwardly placed, but maybe just because Pirates are so weak. Probably just hold onto until the next expansion then try Pirates again.

Sadly I've even seen Pirate decks not running Kragg, but he looks OK to me if Pirates are ever a thing.  And Ship's Cannon is cool, so Pirates should definitely be a thing.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on November 05, 2015, 02:25:38 pm
Ship's Cannon is the only Pirate card that looks like it could be potentially powerful enough to make Pirates a thing. Hard to make a deck around a strong 2 drop though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on November 05, 2015, 02:56:16 pm
Cannon is a card that could maybe help  a pirate deck beat aggro. You just need more pirate stuff that helps early game and not late game weapon buffs.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: chairs on November 10, 2015, 12:14:22 am
My current list (Face Hunter):

Abusive Sergeant x 2
Leper Gnome x 2
Worgen Infiltrator
Glaivezooka x 2
Bear Trap
Explosive Trap
Quick Shot x 2
Haunted Creeper x 2
Ironbeak Owl
Knife Juggler x 2
Mad Scientist x 2
Eaglehorn Bow
Animal Companion x 2
Kill Command x 2
Unleash the Hounds x 2
Arcane Golem x 2
Piloted Shredder x 2
Loatheb

I'm really only losing to Dragon Priest (rank 15 right now). I lost just now to a funky shaman toem deck but I'm pretty sure I had lethal and just wasn't thinking.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: chairs on November 10, 2015, 08:41:19 am
fucking 3 shaman in a row.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on November 10, 2015, 08:44:51 am
fucking 3 shaman in a row.

Funny. I don't see any shamans, and I'm only a few ranks higher.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on November 10, 2015, 01:30:42 pm
Druid running Fel Reaver x2?  Really?  What's that?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Twistedarcher on November 10, 2015, 01:32:12 pm
Druid running Fel Reaver x2?  Really?  What's that?

Aggro druid! It's pretty popular and pretty good
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on November 10, 2015, 01:37:37 pm
Druid running Fel Reaver x2?  Really?  What's that?

Aggro druid! It's pretty popular and pretty good

I destroyed him by running out his deck and then clearing the board.  All he could do was hero power.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on November 10, 2015, 02:31:08 pm
Druid running Fel Reaver x2?  Really?  What's that?

Aggro druid! It's pretty popular and pretty good

I destroyed him by running out his deck and then clearing the board.  All he could do was hero power.
It was good for a time.  It still can be good if the opponent happens not to have the BGH/Freeze/Peacekeeper etc in hand at the right time.  But yeah if you can dump 3 cards then either BGH or Peacekeep, you just win.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: chairs on November 10, 2015, 03:36:45 pm
I lost to aggro druid but I think I would've had him if I hadn't misplayed the last turn by killing his fel reaver instead of damage to face (pretty sure I had 7 of his 8 HP in hand, and he fatigued for 1 the next turn since he was out).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on November 10, 2015, 03:44:41 pm
Freeze Mages preying on Paladins and playing with the new toys.  Time for Flare?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on November 10, 2015, 03:46:53 pm
Freeze Mages preying on Paladins and playing with the new toys.  Time for Flare?

Last season, I was super late getting to rank 5 so I had to do it in like 2 days from whatever crappy rank I was at for completing some quests in between less successful Arena runs, and running two Flares in midrange Hunter turned out to be incredibly good against Eboladin (despite saying that it doesn't really need Flares to beat it earlier — which is still true, but with Flares, the wins seemed to be almost automatic) and fine against the rest of the meta.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on November 10, 2015, 03:59:59 pm
Freeze Mages preying on Paladins and playing with the new toys.  Time for Flare?

Yeah I've seen tons of freeze mage. Works like a charm. With no warriors, Freeze mops the floor with most decks.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on November 10, 2015, 04:02:21 pm
I also like Kezan against Freeze Mage, but it depends on your curve where you can fit your tech cards.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on November 11, 2015, 06:12:05 am
If you could have any Legendary for constructed play, what would it be?

I guess I'm looking for a top 10...I assume Boom is there.  Is Ysera a must have?  The new Warrior one?  Voljin?

To follow up on this...here's what I don't have.  Anything on this list strike you as "dude, how have you not crafted that yet?"

Class:
Malorne, Aviana, Gahz'rilla, Acidmaw, Archmage Antonidas, Flame Leviathan, Bolvar Fordragon, Eadric the Pure, Prophet Velen, Vol'jin, Confessor Paletress, Edwin VanCleef, Trade Prince Gallywix, Anub'arak, The Mistcaller, Mal'Ganis, Wilfred Fizzlebang, Grommash Hellscream

Neutral:
Bloodmage Thalnos, Lorewalker Cho, Millhouse Manastorm, Nat Pagle, Elite Tauren Chieftain, Harrison Jones, Gelbin Mekkatorque, Hogger, Illidan Stormrage, The Beast, The Black Knight, Baron Geddon, Gruul, Ragnaros the Firelord, Malygos, Nozdormu, Onyxia, Ysera, Deathwing, Blingtron 3000, Mimiron's Head, Gazlowe, Toshley, Foe Reaper 4000, Mekgineer Thermaplugg, Eydis Darkbane, Gormok the Impaler, Bolf Ramshield, Chillmaw, Skycap'n Kragg, Icehowl
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on November 11, 2015, 06:39:36 am
If you could have any Legendary for constructed play, what would it be?

I guess I'm looking for a top 10...I assume Boom is there.  Is Ysera a must have?  The new Warrior one?  Voljin?

To follow up on this...here's what I don't have.  Anything on this list strike you as "dude, how have you not crafted that yet?"

Class:
Malorne, Aviana, Gahz'rilla, Acidmaw, Archmage Antonidas, Flame Leviathan, Bolvar Fordragon, Eadric the Pure, Prophet Velen, Vol'jin, Confessor Paletress, Edwin VanCleef, Trade Prince Gallywix, Anub'arak, The Mistcaller, Mal'Ganis, Wilfred Fizzlebang, Grommash Hellscream

Neutral:
Bloodmage Thalnos, Lorewalker Cho, Millhouse Manastorm, Nat Pagle, Elite Tauren Chieftain, Harrison Jones, Gelbin Mekkatorque, Hogger, Illidan Stormrage, The Beast, The Black Knight, Baron Geddon, Gruul, Ragnaros the Firelord, Malygos, Nozdormu, Onyxia, Ysera, Deathwing, Blingtron 3000, Mimiron's Head, Gazlowe, Toshley, Foe Reaper 4000, Mekgineer Thermaplugg, Eydis Darkbane, Gormok the Impaler, Bolf Ramshield, Chillmaw, Skycap'n Kragg, Icehowl
Depends exactly what you're trying to build, sorry I haven't looked at the context of the question.
But my top 10/11 things to craft from that list are (in roughly decreasing order of how much I would want them):
Ysera,
Grommash,
Ragnaros,
Mal'Ganis,
Harrison,
Antonidas,
Black Knight,
Geddon,
Malygos,
Chillmaw, (??)
Thalnos (??)

Control warrior would need Geddon and Grom most desperately, Ysera is for controlly decks in general, but likes priest a lot (Control Priest/Dragon Priest?), and Chillmaw really fits best in priest.  Antonidas goes in most mage decks.  The rest are almost techy-type cards, whether they go in deck 1 or deck 2 would depend on meta and exact deck makeup, but it's nice to have them around for when the meta changes.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on November 11, 2015, 09:50:28 am
Antonidas kind of works in every mage deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on November 11, 2015, 09:53:29 am
Antonidas kind of works in every mage deck.
Gah, yes that's true.  I originally had a line about Antonidas in there, and when I took it away it's ended up looking from the last sentence like I'm relegating Antonidas to the status of tech-legendary.  Which it really isn't.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Watno on November 21, 2015, 03:47:17 pm
Just hit Legend for the first time, yipee!
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on November 21, 2015, 06:21:07 pm
Just hit Legend for the first time, yipee!

Enjoy the card back! I never use it :P
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on November 22, 2015, 11:48:05 am
Not sure where to post this, but I've finally got all 5 arrows to hit the bull's eye on the TGT board.

(http://i67.tinypic.com/s0zwua.png)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on November 22, 2015, 12:25:50 pm
So it seems like every single Paladin switched to secretless builds, all at once (never aggro pallies, always midrange).

Maybe they are overreacting to the psychology of getting Flared? Maybe they are correctly reacting to a clot of Hunters running double Flare? (Which I think is itself an overreaction).

The weird thing about cards like Flare is that if you beat someone with it using a secretless deck, you might not ever know they had it.  It seems like they had a generically bad draw, and you don't know that Flare was cluttering their hand the entire game.  So since I haven't been playing secret pally lately I don't have a good idea of how much flare is actually hapening.


I really think Flare is the only explanation, I don't see how any other build can make Challenger so bad that you don't even run a 1 of each secret+double Challenger build.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on November 22, 2015, 12:28:41 pm
Reno too. Im seeing a fair number of midrange highlander decks, which if played and built right can take secret pally apart. Midrange paladin always did well against secret pally anyway.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on November 22, 2015, 12:29:32 pm
In my case, I don't have any copies of Mysterious Challenger. Plus I wanted to experiment with Dragon Paladin using Bran. Jeweled Scarab isn't half bad either since Paladin 3-mana cards are so good. Scarab is like using Hero Power on Turn 2 to hopefully get a really good 3-drop for the matchup.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on November 22, 2015, 12:37:02 pm
I'm not seeing that many Renos though.  Again, though, it's a kind of card you might not get to see was in their hand but wasn't played before the game ended.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on November 22, 2015, 05:36:28 pm
In my case, I don't have any copies of Mysterious Challenger. Plus I wanted to experiment with Dragon Paladin using Bran. Jeweled Scarab isn't half bad either since Paladin 3-mana cards are so good. Scarab is like using Hero Power on Turn 2 to hopefully get a really good 3-drop for the matchup.
Im glad someone else haf the same idea, dragon pally was my first thought. Two variants I've tried, the first seemed to lose to hyper aggressive face decks no matter how much heal I put in, so im trying a highlander variant.
Hadnt thought of scarab, interesting...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on November 22, 2015, 05:55:20 pm
I've been still running into a lot of Secret Pallies.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on November 24, 2015, 01:47:42 pm
Mech Shaman, where have you been all my life?  I played the Face version recently updated and popularised by Reynad (https://tempostorm.com/hearthstone/decks/reynad-smorc-shaman) and shot from 10 to 6 almost without loss, handily making up the sacrifice I made playing Malylock.  It's Face Hunter with multiple 1 mana Fireballs and Frostbolts in your deck: how can you not love it?  I might have to bump Fel Reaver up my crafting priority list to try out the more midrangey version with Shredder and Fel Reaver.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on November 25, 2015, 11:06:22 am
I've been running secret paladin the past few days to get a higher ladder before end of season and over probably 30 games I haven't seen a single flare or even mystic. I do run a mystic ough and it always ruins a Mage if I draw it.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on November 25, 2015, 11:57:00 am
I must say, Reno makes it so much easier to construct a deck to complete quests for my weaker classes. Yesterday I needed to win 5 games as a Rogue, so I threw together a Highlander deck with Reno. Pretty easy to at least win against aggro in casual, although my deck managed to defeat a Reno Highlander Handlock.

I find the discover cards are a natural fit for Highlander decks. Gives you a chance to discover another copy of a good class card you want in your deck. Also lets you have a chnace to get tech cards like Mind Control Tech without having to add them to your deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on November 25, 2015, 12:22:33 pm
I've been running secret paladin the past few days to get a higher ladder before end of season and over probably 30 games I haven't seen a single flare or even mystic. I do run a mystic ough and it always ruins a Mage if I draw it.

Mystic is good against Mage or Hunter, but not usually against Paladin. When you have 5 Secrets losing 1 randomly isn't that big a deal. Flare is devastating to Secret Paladin. Their Mysterious Challenger just becomes a vanilla card.

I am surprised to see midrange Paladins giving up on Secrets entirely though because of Flare. Losing a single Avenge to a Flare isn't really that big a deal.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on November 27, 2015, 01:50:25 am
I've been running secret paladin the past few days to get a higher ladder before end of season and over probably 30 games I haven't seen a single flare or even mystic. I do run a mystic ough and it always ruins a Mage if I draw it.

Mystic is good against Mage or Hunter, but not usually against Paladin. When you have 5 Secrets losing 1 randomly isn't that big a deal. Flare is devastating to Secret Paladin. Their Mysterious Challenger just becomes a vanilla card.

I am surprised to see midrange Paladins giving up on Secrets entirely though because of Flare. Losing a single Avenge to a Flare isn't really that big a deal.

It's funny, having Flare in hand turns Mysterious Challenger into a 6 mana 6/6 with "Overload two of your opponent's Mana Crystals", which isn't that bad.

I think Midrange Paladins are giving up on Secradin because Secradin created this huge Paladin density, and Paladin counters secrets itself.  Peacekeeper addresses the 9/8 Challenger without being as fiddly as BGH, and Muster is really really good at nailing secrets, since the sword and tokens answer Noble Sacrifice and Redemption each, and give you lots of flexibility on working on Avenge too
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on November 27, 2015, 03:17:28 am
It's funny, having Flare in hand turns Mysterious Challenger into a 6 mana 6/6 with "Overload two of your opponent's Mana Crystals", which isn't that bad.

More importantly, it turns their early secrets into 1 mana "overload X of your opponent's Mana Crystals" where X is, on average, less than 2 and sometimes less than 1, which is that bad. Especially since secrets cause you to prevent your opponent from playing around them if possible, which is obviously suboptimal play if he just has a Flare anyway.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on November 27, 2015, 03:58:03 pm
It's funny, having Flare in hand turns Mysterious Challenger into a 6 mana 6/6 with "Overload two of your opponent's Mana Crystals", which isn't that bad.

More importantly, it turns their early secrets into 1 mana "overload X of your opponent's Mana Crystals" where X is, on average, less than 2 and sometimes less than 1, which is that bad. Especially since secrets cause you to prevent your opponent from playing around them if possible, which is obviously suboptimal play if he just has a Flare anyway.

Yeah Flaring early secrets is great value and probably optimal play a lot of times.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on November 27, 2015, 04:59:22 pm
It's funny, having Flare in hand turns Mysterious Challenger into a 6 mana 6/6 with "Overload two of your opponent's Mana Crystals", which isn't that bad.

More importantly, it turns their early secrets into 1 mana "overload X of your opponent's Mana Crystals" where X is, on average, less than 2 and sometimes less than 1, which is that bad. Especially since secrets cause you to prevent your opponent from playing around them if possible, which is obviously suboptimal play if he just has a Flare anyway.

Yeah Flaring early secrets is great value and probably optimal play a lot of times.
Thing is you can also beat MC if you have good board advantage when he comes out. Playing Flare against early secrets helps you do that. Conversely, not playing Flare on early secrets can make it easier for your opponent to claim board Advantage by turn 6, at which point even destroying the Christmas tree might not be enough.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on November 27, 2015, 07:33:11 pm
I've been running secret paladin the past few days to get a higher ladder before end of season and over probably 30 games I haven't seen a single flare or even mystic. I do run a mystic ough and it always ruins a Mage if I draw it.

Mystic is good against Mage or Hunter, but not usually against Paladin. When you have 5 Secrets losing 1 randomly isn't that big a deal. Flare is devastating to Secret Paladin. Their Mysterious Challenger just becomes a vanilla card.

I am surprised to see midrange Paladins giving up on Secrets entirely though because of Flare. Losing a single Avenge to a Flare isn't really that big a deal.

I dont think they ever played it anyway.
Aggro pallies did, tho, sometimes.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on November 28, 2015, 10:00:05 am
I've been running secret paladin the past few days to get a higher ladder before end of season and over probably 30 games I haven't seen a single flare or even mystic. I do run a mystic ough and it always ruins a Mage if I draw it.

Mystic is good against Mage or Hunter, but not usually against Paladin. When you have 5 Secrets losing 1 randomly isn't that big a deal. Flare is devastating to Secret Paladin. Their Mysterious Challenger just becomes a vanilla card.

I am surprised to see midrange Paladins giving up on Secrets entirely though because of Flare. Losing a single Avenge to a Flare isn't really that big a deal.

I dont think they ever played it anyway.
Aggro pallies did, tho, sometimes.
There were definitely lots of Paladins with Challenger with no Leper Gnomes before. 
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on December 01, 2015, 03:43:25 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/eugM9mE.jpg)

Awful line break not in preview. :-(
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on December 01, 2015, 06:03:26 pm
Constructed seems to be in a really great place right now: every class has playable decks, and I don't find any of them particularly obnoxious.  Also, we can play Feugen/Stalagg!

I've just added Druid to the list of classes I can play by crafting two Force of Nature and two Ancient of Lore.  I've only played a few games of Midrange so far, but I like the style a lot.  Darnassus Aspirant is very strong: devastating to Face Hunter, and apparently terrifying enough for (rank 17) Warrior to Death's Bite/Execute through a fresh Druid of the Claw...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on December 04, 2015, 06:29:57 am
So, Murloc Shaman is a fun thing right now.  Here's my list, looking for some thoughts:

2x Murloc Tinyfin (1/1 for 0 mana)
2x Forked Lightning
2x Grimscale Oracle (all other murlocs have +1 attack)
2x Murloc Tidecaller (gain +1 attack when another murloc summoned)
Sir Finley Mrrgglton
2x Ancestral Knowledge
2x Murloc Tidehunter (2/1 + 1/1 murlocs for 2)
2x Puddlestomper
2x Lightning Storm
2x Coldlight Oracle (draw 2 cards)
2x Coldlight Seer (BC - all other murlocs +2 health)
2x Murloc Warleader (+2/+1 for all other murlocs)
Charged Hammer
Old Murk-Eye
2x Siltfin Spiritwalker
2x Everyfin is Awesome
Neptulon

A few thoughts:

--While thematically and shamanically Neptulon fits...every game I have played is over by T5.  I'm just not sure a 7 mana card makes sense here (and Everyfin is Awesome doesn't count).  Leeroy might make more sense, or Loatheb as a staller.

--Card draw is a thing.  All the cards are cheap, and we're all about flooding the board then hitting with buffed murlocs, so our hand empties quick.  Ancestral Knowledges are there, but it's expensive (basically it's two Warlock hero powers (2 mana this turn, 2 mana next) for two cards now) and overload isn't a fit for the deck as we're usually playing with a small total number of crystals anyway.  The spiritwalkers work, although if you are trading murlocs to draw cards, you're probably not in a great place on T4 or T5 anyway.  That said, I'm not sure the AKs are the right card for this, or if maybe the Oracles are enough.

--I'm using removal spells to get around opponent minions and going face with the murlocs whenever possible, hence the bolts of lightning.  Storm doesn't really fit, but feels important given the lack of other good removal for shamans.  I've thought about an Owl to silence taunts, too.

--the Hammer is there for the same reason as Sir Finley, to replace totems.  Plus, small minion removal.

Any thoughts or ideas?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on December 04, 2015, 10:52:43 am
Sudden influx of Murloc Shamans. Like 7 in a row. Beat all 7 of them in a row using Raptor Rogue. Not seeing a compelling reason to even attempt the Murloc Shaman.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on December 04, 2015, 11:00:17 am
I just tried 2 games with Murclos Shaman. It just doesn't work. Murlocs just don't work.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on December 04, 2015, 11:10:58 am
I just tried 2 games with Murclos Shaman. It just doesn't work. Murlocs just don't work.

I have yet to lose in my small sample size.  I just run over my opponents and they can't answer all the threats that build over the first few turns.

If you make it to T6 or T7, you lose, though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on December 04, 2015, 11:13:36 am
I just tried 2 games with Murclos Shaman. It just doesn't work. Murlocs just don't work.

I have yet to lose in my small sample size.  I just run over my opponents and they can't answer all the threats that build over the first few turns.

If you make it to T6 or T7, you lose, though.

That seems to rely on playing on curve, with a warleader on turn 3, or the Seer. I didnt get to play enverfin is awesome because my murlocs were always dead. I'll try it again maybe, but I'm not convinced.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on December 04, 2015, 11:22:10 am
I just tried 2 games with Murclos Shaman. It just doesn't work. Murlocs just don't work.

I have yet to lose in my small sample size.  I just run over my opponents and they can't answer all the threats that build over the first few turns.

If you make it to T6 or T7, you lose, though.

That seems to rely on playing on curve, with a warleader on turn 3, or the Seer. I didnt get to play enverfin is awesome because my murlocs were always dead. I'll try it again maybe, but I'm not convinced.

Yeah, playing on curve T1-T4 is basically required, so it's really about the mulligan.  Preference so far has been:

T1: Sir Finley
T2: Tidecaller(s) or Tidehunter
T3: Seer or Warleader
T4: Seer or Warleader
T5: Murk-Eye

I hold Tinyfins and play them as if they were the +1 attack spare part for Tidecallers only, so I actually always mulligan them away.  If you are unlucky and end up with lots of spells early, you just hope to remove everything you can.  You'll take damage, but if you get the right two or three turns, you've got 9+ damage on the board, hopefully with 3 life, which is hard to remove before T6 by most classes.

Ironically, I've yet to play an Everyfin yet.  Feels like a win-more card.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on December 04, 2015, 01:08:43 pm
I still think Paladin Murloc is the toughest Murloc deck. You try to spend your first 3-4 turns playing normal Paladin stuff (Secret, Minibot, Muster, Consecrate/Truesilver) and then do a big bursty Murloc turn all at once and shout surprise.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on December 04, 2015, 01:29:26 pm
I still think Paladin Murloc is the toughest Murloc deck. You try to spend your first 3-4 turns playing normal Paladin stuff (Secret, Minibot, Muster, Consecrate/Truesilver) and then do a big bursty Murloc turn all at once and shout surprise.

Have you tried Anyfin yet?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on December 04, 2015, 01:33:31 pm
I still think Paladin Murloc is the toughest Murloc deck. You try to spend your first 3-4 turns playing normal Paladin stuff (Secret, Minibot, Muster, Consecrate/Truesilver) and then do a big bursty Murloc turn all at once and shout surprise.

Have you tried Anyfin yet?

No still 200 Gold away from the new wing. Should get it later this week.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on December 04, 2015, 01:57:57 pm
If anyone catches me online, happy to duel with the murloc deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on December 04, 2015, 04:06:56 pm
If anyone catches me online, happy to duel with the murloc deck.

I'll take you up on that if I see you online :P
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on December 04, 2015, 05:48:17 pm
I am playing Feugen/Stalagg version of Renolock, it is awesooome, also better than standard version.
I also ran Dreadscale Midrange Hunter during the end of last season, it ain't bad eitehr.

Sir Finley is great as well, mainly cuz lategame when your HP becomes liability (due to being low on cards or low on hp) you can discover him with Dark Peddler and get some additional reach (if low on cards) or healing (if low on hp).  ;D
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on December 04, 2015, 05:52:38 pm
Sir Finley is great as well, mainly cuz lategame when your HP becomes liability (due to being low on cards or low on hp) you can discover him with Dark Peddler and get some additional reach (if low on cards) or healing (if low on hp).  ;D

You could also run Justicar and draw without consequence.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on December 04, 2015, 06:19:17 pm
I am playing Feugen/Stalagg version of Renolock, it is awesooome, also better than standard version.
I also ran Dreadscale Midrange Hunter during the end of last season, it ain't bad eitehr.

Sir Finley is great as well, mainly cuz lategame when your HP becomes liability (due to being low on cards or low on hp) you can discover him with Dark Peddler and get some additional reach (if low on cards) or healing (if low on hp).  ;D

I wish I had Dreadscale, but sometimes I luck into him with Jeweled Scarab or even Tomb Spider. Maybe that's even better because Dreadscale seems maybe a bit too situational in the deck.

I gotta try adding Feugen/Stalagg to my Renolock deck. I also heard reports that Giants discounts still apply after Naga Sea Witch is in play, despite that being inconsistent with Avianna + Giants. Might just be a bug, but worth checking out perhaps.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on December 05, 2015, 11:37:48 am
I play this list:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5DptdO_zMk

Except I teched out Kezan for Bran and I don't have Demonwrath so I put in Bane of Doom.
It eschew demon package (Malganis, Pit Lord, Void Walker) for Feugen/Stallagg, Sylvanas and Twisting Nether package.
It also doesn't run Mountain Giant, which I don't miss at all, as you have a lot of earlygame and you usually can't drop it early, and late you don't really need it as you have better options.
And Feugen is not that much worse than belcher turn 5 if you are not under a lot of pressure.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on December 05, 2015, 11:57:03 am
I play this list:
<video>

Except I teched out Kezan for Bran and I don't have Demonwrath so I put in Bane of Doom.
It eschew demon package (Malganis, Pit Lord, Void Walker) for Feugen/Stallagg, Sylvanas and Twisting Nether package.
It also doesn't run Mountain Giant, which I don't miss at all, as you have a lot of earlygame and you usually can't drop it early, and late you don't really need it as you have better options.
And Feugen is not that much worse than belcher turn 5 if you are not under a lot of pressure.

Funny because I have Demonwrath but not Twisting Nether.

The list makes sense I think because Stalagg/Feugen can make up for the loss of the Demon package.

I don't have Mountain Giant anyway. I had put Sea Giant in my Renolock. I'd have to play with it more to determine how reasonable Sea Giant is in the deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on December 05, 2015, 12:48:41 pm
Just pulled a Mysterious Challenger out of a pack.  The only secrets I have are Eye for an Eye, Get Down, Pally-Snipe and Sacred Trial, though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on December 05, 2015, 02:54:40 pm
Just pulled a Mysterious Challenger out of a pack.  The only secrets I have are Eye for an Eye, Get Down, Pally-Snipe and Sacred Trial, though.

Bad luck on only having one secret.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on December 05, 2015, 03:48:38 pm
Just pulled a Mysterious Challenger out of a pack.  The only secrets I have are Eye for an Eye, Get Down, Pally-Snipe and Sacred Trial, though.

Bad luck on only having one secret.

One and a half I'd say.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on December 05, 2015, 05:01:05 pm
get down and pally snipe are both legit
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on December 05, 2015, 05:15:31 pm
Ah, Repentance should be at least half, yes.  Somehow I didn't get there from Pally-Snipe.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on December 05, 2015, 05:29:08 pm
Ah, Repentance should be at least half, yes.  Somehow I didn't get there from Pally-Snipe.

I didn't remember the name of it... <.<
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on December 06, 2015, 02:40:37 am
Ah, Repentance should be at least half, yes.  Somehow I didn't get there from Pally-Snipe.

I didn't remember the name of it... <.<
No no no, qmech is the one at fault here, Pally-snipe is an utterly unambiguous reference to Repentance :)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on December 06, 2015, 12:04:26 pm
I finally crafted two Dreadsteeds!  Here's my Bargain Dreadsteed deck:

Sacrificial Pact x2

Mortal Coil x2
Power Overwhelming x2
Reliquary Seeker (don't have Anima Golem)

Darkbomb
Dark Peddler
Haunted Creeper
Knife Juggler x2
Nerubian Egg x2

Void Terror

Hellfire x2
Imp-losion x2
Baron Rivendare
Dreadsteed x2
Piloted Shredder x2

Bane of Doom
Sludge Belcher

Siphon Soul

Dr. Boom
Stormwind Champion (no Mal'Ganis)

Ragnaros
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on December 06, 2015, 02:00:33 pm
So, played a few games with my Bargain Dreadsteed - it is pretty terrible against aggressive decks, but it quite handily owns control decks.  Any deck that spends, like, 9 turns doing nothing or just gaining armor is going to be crushed under my fiery little hooves, because control really can't do anything against a horde of D-Steeds, except Freeze Mage can delay them... a little.  My only fear is a Priest that's actually (for whatever reason) running Mass Dispel.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on December 07, 2015, 05:19:51 pm
So much for Secret Paladin.  I haven't faced any Paladins at all lately on constructed.  It's been Force of Nature Druids, Charge Warriors, a couple Freeze Mages, and a Handlock.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on December 08, 2015, 02:09:49 am
Charge Warriors

I don't think this is a thing.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on December 08, 2015, 02:14:24 am
Charge Warriors

I don't think this is a thing.

It may be a thing. Just not a good thing. Probably trying to make it work with Sir mrrgglton
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on December 08, 2015, 10:02:24 am
Charge Warriors

I don't think this is a thing.

It may be a thing. Just not a good thing. Probably trying to make it work with Sir mrrgglton

Everyone is playing SMORC right now.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on December 08, 2015, 10:09:09 am
Charge Warriors

I don't think this is a thing.

Face Warrior has been niche for a long time, but I think it still sees some success due to how unexpected it is. With stuff like Arcanite Reaper and Kor'kron Elite it can steal some wins.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on December 08, 2015, 12:43:57 pm
I played a game, at rank 5 mind you, versus Mech Warrior, so anyfin can happen.

Speaking about anyfin can happen, you guys seen the anyfin combo paladin?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on December 08, 2015, 12:53:43 pm
I played a game, at rank 5 mind you, versus Mech Warrior, so anyfin can happen.

Speaking about anyfin can happen, you guys seen the anyfin combo paladin?

Kripp played it in a video, so people are trying it out. I was going to give a try soon too. It looks fun.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on December 08, 2015, 12:56:09 pm
I played a game, at rank 5 mind you, versus Mech Warrior, so anyfin can happen.

Speaking about anyfin can happen, you guys seen the anyfin combo paladin?
I played against Mech Warrior around that rank once. I was Priest and won, but it was close.

I haven't seen Anyfin Can Happen pulled on me yet. I've seen lots of Murloc Shamans though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on December 08, 2015, 01:28:51 pm
Any tips on rising in rank?  I was able to get near level 10 a couple months ago, but since Warsong nerf and LoE, I've been having trouble getting past 18 - so many SMOrcers.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on December 08, 2015, 01:39:51 pm
Reno.

:)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on December 08, 2015, 02:04:10 pm
Reno.

:)

Honestly Reno makes a lot of Control decks pretty viable if you build for him. You can slot lots of tech cards and semi-viable cards into them and Reno makes up for anything lacking. The Warlock variants of Reno seem strongest, but most of the classes that can string together a Control deck can make something work.

Tunnel Trogg seems pretty viable if you want an aggro deck to ladder with. I just started playing it this morning, but it's pretty fast and seems like it'll take me up the ladder for a ways until I get bored of it. Doomhammer's are the hardest thing to come by in the deck. There's also always Midrange Hunter or Tempo Mage, and those new flavours of Force/Savage Druid.

Secret Paladin is probably still pretty decent. Raptor Rogue is solid right now too and doesn't need too much dust (though it needs lots of wings unlocked).

Those are all the decks I can think of that don't require anything particularly difficult to acquire to build. Only 1 or 2 Legendaries and not too many Epics anyways.

Honestly though if you're having trouble getting past 18 you should probably just pick a deck you have the cards for and practice with it a bit. Often it's more about learning the matchups and grinding a little bit while you figure out a deck before you start climbing. I don't play that seriously or that much and usually hit rank 15-13 just dicking around when I have time. I've hit rank 3 (I think?) in the past and though the ladder is getting gradually tougher over time I don't think it'd be that hard to hit rank 10 with enough practice on any deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on December 08, 2015, 02:50:58 pm
It's the best feeling when you kill Tirion, then drop an Acidic Swamp Ooze.  :)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on December 08, 2015, 02:59:34 pm
It's the best feeling when you kill Tirion, then drop an Acidic Swamp Ooze.  :)

I think it feels better when you just silence the Tirion.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on December 08, 2015, 03:12:31 pm
It's the best feeling when you kill Tirion, then drop an Acidic Swamp Ooze.  :)

I think it feels better when you just silence the Tirion.

Or Harrison Jones. Or now Entomb for Priests. It seems every Priest runs one of those now.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on December 08, 2015, 03:13:53 pm
It's the best feeling when you kill Tirion, then drop an Acidic Swamp Ooze.  :)

I think it feels better when you just silence the Tirion.

Or Harrison Jones.

Oh yeah, I just love the feeling when I silence Harrison Jones!
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on December 08, 2015, 03:29:09 pm
It's the best feeling when you kill Tirion, then drop an Acidic Swamp Ooze.  :)

I think it feels better when you just silence the Tirion.

Or Harrison Jones.

Oh yeah, I just love the feeling when I silence Harrison Jones!

I tech Owl in Freeze Mage to silence Loatheb.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on December 09, 2015, 06:22:33 am
I just lost to a Secret Pally. 

In arena.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on December 09, 2015, 11:12:50 pm
I am playing Feugen/Stalagg version of Renolock, it is awesooome, also better than standard version.
I also ran Dreadscale Midrange Hunter during the end of last season, it ain't bad eitehr.

Sir Finley is great as well, mainly cuz lategame when your HP becomes liability (due to being low on cards or low on hp) you can discover him with Dark Peddler and get some additional reach (if low on cards) or healing (if low on hp).  ;D

I wish I had Dreadscale, but sometimes I luck into him with Jeweled Scarab or even Tomb Spider. Maybe that's even better because Dreadscale seems maybe a bit too situational in the deck.

I gotta try adding Feugen/Stalagg to my Renolock deck. I also heard reports that Giants discounts still apply after Naga Sea Witch is in play, despite that being inconsistent with Avianna + Giants. Might just be a bug, but worth checking out perhaps.

I've been playing around with Renolock that has Stalagg/Feugen. I've seen at least three players silence the first of the two twins I played, showing how uncommon Feugen/Stalagg has been until recently. Thinking that silencing the first twin prevents Thaddius cost my last Renolock mirror opponent the game. My opponent played Twisting Nether as Jaraxxus when Stalagg was ready to proc Thaddius instead of just killing my other minion with an Infernal. Power Overwhelming on my turn then became a 1-hit KO.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on December 10, 2015, 01:08:18 am
I am playing Feugen/Stalagg version of Renolock, it is awesooome, also better than standard version.
I also ran Dreadscale Midrange Hunter during the end of last season, it ain't bad eitehr.

Sir Finley is great as well, mainly cuz lategame when your HP becomes liability (due to being low on cards or low on hp) you can discover him with Dark Peddler and get some additional reach (if low on cards) or healing (if low on hp).  ;D

I wish I had Dreadscale, but sometimes I luck into him with Jeweled Scarab or even Tomb Spider. Maybe that's even better because Dreadscale seems maybe a bit too situational in the deck.

I gotta try adding Feugen/Stalagg to my Renolock deck. I also heard reports that Giants discounts still apply after Naga Sea Witch is in play, despite that being inconsistent with Avianna + Giants. Might just be a bug, but worth checking out perhaps.

I've been playing around with Renolock that has Stalagg/Feugen. I've seen at least three players silence the first of the two twins I played, showing how uncommon Feugen/Stalagg has been until recently. Thinking that silencing the first twin prevents Thaddius cost my last Renolock mirror opponent the game. My opponent played Twisting Nether as Jaraxxus when Stalagg was ready to proc Thaddius instead of just killing my other minion with an Infernal. Power Overwhelming on my turn then became a 1-hit KO.

I find the most confusing thing about the Twins is if your Stalagg dies and you kill your opponent's Feugen later in the game (or vice versa) than your opponent gets a Thaddius. I learned that one the hard way.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on December 10, 2015, 06:51:59 am
I am playing Feugen/Stalagg version of Renolock, it is awesooome, also better than standard version.
I also ran Dreadscale Midrange Hunter during the end of last season, it ain't bad eitehr.

Sir Finley is great as well, mainly cuz lategame when your HP becomes liability (due to being low on cards or low on hp) you can discover him with Dark Peddler and get some additional reach (if low on cards) or healing (if low on hp).  ;D

I wish I had Dreadscale, but sometimes I luck into him with Jeweled Scarab or even Tomb Spider. Maybe that's even better because Dreadscale seems maybe a bit too situational in the deck.

I gotta try adding Feugen/Stalagg to my Renolock deck. I also heard reports that Giants discounts still apply after Naga Sea Witch is in play, despite that being inconsistent with Avianna + Giants. Might just be a bug, but worth checking out perhaps.

I've been playing around with Renolock that has Stalagg/Feugen. I've seen at least three players silence the first of the two twins I played, showing how uncommon Feugen/Stalagg has been until recently. Thinking that silencing the first twin prevents Thaddius cost my last Renolock mirror opponent the game. My opponent played Twisting Nether as Jaraxxus when Stalagg was ready to proc Thaddius instead of just killing my other minion with an Infernal. Power Overwhelming on my turn then became a 1-hit KO.

I find the most confusing thing about the Twins is if your Stalagg dies and you kill your opponent's Feugen later in the game (or vice versa) than your opponent gets a Thaddius. I learned that one the hard way.

Yeah, in mirror for example you really want to save your twins for as late as possible.
I had a renolock play both of them early against me, and I getting rid of both + tadius.
Than, both my guys spawned a Thadius, and him being Jaraxxus didn't save him at all.

Edit: what does gets you if your first twing gets Hexed or Polymorphed, or your second twin gets Entombed.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on December 11, 2015, 08:41:19 pm
Ok, I just had a warror DELIBERATELY kill both my feugen and stalagg at same time (and on turn 6 or something like that) - thinking nothing will spawn.

Well, he was wrong.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on December 11, 2015, 08:57:27 pm
Oh, and I've beaten

twitch.tv/orange_hs

today. I didn't even realize it was him (tho he had Tespa backs) until a friend spectating asked me about it.
After the match I've checked the stream, and it turned out it was his first loss with the deck actually (new Miracle Rogue). :D
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on December 12, 2015, 08:19:16 pm
I've just hit legend! And I still have half a month to spare! :D

Renolock is to blame.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on December 12, 2015, 08:35:25 pm
I've just hit legend! And I still have half a month to spare! :D

Renolock is to blame.

Regardless of it's viability, I must say Renolock is really fun to play. I've played some mirror matches with it too, and those mirror matches were a true test of how well you can bait removal. In such matches you can expect both players to present all their threats, and it seems so important to save silence for the second Feugen/Stalagg twin.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on December 12, 2015, 09:50:08 pm
Oh, and here is some writeup:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/3wlgwq/just_hit_legend_with_renolock_decklist_tips/

Mirrors are fun, Jaraxxus is mirrorbreaker, but so is stupid golem/PO combo if you don't expect it.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on December 13, 2015, 02:52:23 pm
I've changed the two cards necessary to bring my list to yours (-Brann,Kodo, +Farseer,Siphon Soul, also have Demonwrath) and am having fun with it.  The biggest problem I have is that I've only recently started using a mouse occasionally to play, and I find the interface much trickier.  I just died to triple PO on an imp after accidentally casting MC Tech instead of Twisting Nether against a Dr Boom.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on December 15, 2015, 05:02:33 pm
The new face shaman archetype is pretty nuts. I've seen it run over a few strong priests on stream (traditionally a natural enemy of both shaman and face decks) and having played it a bit myself at low ranks, it's so fast it can even outrace face hunter.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: chairs on December 15, 2015, 05:34:21 pm
The new face shaman archetype is pretty nuts. I've seen it run over a few strong priests on stream (traditionally a natural enemy of both shaman and face decks) and having played it a bit myself at low ranks, it's so fast it can even outrace face hunter.

Tell me it's cheap to build, because this sounds fun.

I need budget face decks for every class :D
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on December 15, 2015, 05:57:43 pm
The new face shaman archetype is pretty nuts. I've seen it run over a few strong priests on stream (traditionally a natural enemy of both shaman and face decks) and having played it a bit myself at low ranks, it's so fast it can even outrace face hunter.

Tell me it's cheap to build, because this sounds fun.

I need budget face decks for every class :D

No, it's not fun, it's annoying as hell.  Pretty much everyone has discovered that you can just Murloc rush face and win in 5-6 turns with any class.  Which is why I now run multiple taunts in every deck I play.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on December 15, 2015, 06:11:05 pm
The new face shaman archetype is pretty nuts. I've seen it run over a few strong priests on stream (traditionally a natural enemy of both shaman and face decks) and having played it a bit myself at low ranks, it's so fast it can even outrace face hunter.

Tell me it's cheap to build, because this sounds fun.

I need budget face decks for every class :D

No, it's not fun, it's annoying as hell.  Pretty much everyone has discovered that you can just Murloc rush face and win in 5-6 turns with any class.  Which is why I now run multiple taunts in every deck I play.
It's not a murloc deck. Everyone tried murlocs the week that the new murloc cards came out and discovered that murloc decks remain terrible.

The key new elements are Finley (to replace your useless hero power) and Tunnel Trogg (basically Shaman's version of Mana Wyrm, and makes your overload cards suck less). Then a bunch of burst damage and the usual face cards. Here's one popular decklist: http://www.liquidhearth.com/staff/monk/PowerRank/December2015_1/Luffy_Aggro_Shaman.png.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on December 15, 2015, 06:15:24 pm
No, it's not fun, it's annoying as hell.  Pretty much everyone has discovered that you can just Murloc rush face and win in 5-6 turns with any class.  Which is why I now run multiple taunts in every deck I play.

So you can just play Murlocs with any class, but it isn't usually going to be very consistent.

The new Face Shaman isn't a Murloc deck.  The key cards are Tunnel Trogg, which is the Mana Wyrm for Overload, a 1-drop that can grow into a formidable threat if it stays around for a few turns, and Doomhammer, which is 16 damage for 5 mana and turns Rockbiter Weapons into 1 mana Fireballs.  Sir Finely helps too.  I don't have a particular list to recommend as I've not found one I like yet, but you'll get lots of suggestions if you search for Face Shaman.  (If you find one with Unbound Elemental and Mechwarper it's probably not up to date.)  It's a cheap deck if you discount the double Doomhammer.

PPE: The list blueblimp linked looks fine.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on December 15, 2015, 09:00:36 pm
I wouldn't call murloc decks face decks anyway. Not every aggro deck is a face deck. Face decks are all about delivering damage directly from hand to your opponent's face. You don't plan to maintain board control, and any minions you run should be able to deliver face damage even if you don't control the board, or at least be OP and low-cost enough that it doesn't matter. That's why Leper Gnome is a staple of face decks, for example, because it nearly guarantees at least 2 damage to face.

Murloc decks are typically structured more like zoo decks. They aim to spam minions onto the board and maintain board control, hitting face with leftover minions. They don't have means to deliver significant damage directly from hand without board control.

Murloc decks are bad because, unlike zoo decks these days, their minions aren't sticky and are individually weak. Murlocs are highly vulnerable to common early removal and board control tools, like Zombie Chow and Frostbolt, as well as most AOE. Being dependent on board control to win _and_ being bad at holding board control is a bad combination. If you're having trouble against murloc decks, it's probably a sign that your deck has weak early game.

(None of this applies to Anyfin decks, which are typically combo decks, not aggro decks.)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on December 16, 2015, 01:43:52 am
Yeah, Coldlight Oracle is like the antithesis of a face deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on December 16, 2015, 04:52:52 am
Yeah, Coldlight Oracle is like the antithesis of a face deck.
Do Murloc tribal decks even run Coldlight Oracle? I see it more as a tool for mill and fatigue decks. The murloc tribal decks I've seen either don't have card draw or use other tools to draw cards (like Warlock Murloc using life tap).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on December 16, 2015, 07:28:03 am
Yeah, Coldlight Oracle is like the antithesis of a face deck.
Do Murloc tribal decks even run Coldlight Oracle? I see it more as a tool for mill and fatigue decks. The murloc tribal decks I've seen either don't have card draw or use other tools to draw cards (like Warlock Murloc using life tap).

I run them in my Everyfin deck.  I'm not as sold on Ancestral Knowledge because the overkill kills.  I do take the Warlock hero power when offered, though.  Drawing is super important in getting the right cards in hard to overrun your opponent.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on December 21, 2015, 02:56:02 am
Went up against what I'm pretty certain was this:

http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=140712/crimzigs-mill-rogue

Interesting mill/heal strategy.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on December 21, 2015, 07:04:14 am
Went up against what I'm pretty certain was this:

http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=140712/crimzigs-mill-rogue

Interesting mill/heal strategy.

Brann is huge for Mill Rogue: you can easily Mill 8 cards in a turn for lethal.  Brann is fun all round, and even if you don't have a combo with him in hand he's a reasonable play on T3 as opponents often overreact and try to kill him at all costs.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on December 21, 2015, 02:51:27 pm
We are amused:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJg6WU7OXsw
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on December 21, 2015, 04:19:53 pm
I am also vaguely amused that apparently the FoN/SR druid I was running a year ago is still high in the meta.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on December 21, 2015, 04:53:45 pm
I am also vaguely amused that apparently the FoN/SR druid I was running a year ago is still high in the meta.

Well the entire class is based on that combo. Even the aggro druids run it. Druid deck I think have changed the least in a year, only adding new cards to fill in spots that had to be taken up by weaker cards before.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on December 22, 2015, 10:32:56 am
I am also vaguely amused that apparently the FoN/SR druid I was running a year ago is still high in the meta.

Well the entire class is based on that combo. Even the aggro druids run it. Druid deck I think have changed the least in a year, only adding new cards to fill in spots that had to be taken up by weaker cards before.

What was in Druid before Darnassus Aspirant?  I've been playing Midrange Druid for the first time recently and they fill a very useful anti-aggro spot.

I hear people saying that Druid is usually good because it can win against anything, which I'm starting to understand.  I've stolen more games than I can remember by topdecking combo and bursting someone down from 20+ if I've been left anything like a board.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on December 22, 2015, 10:49:50 am
I am also vaguely amused that apparently the FoN/SR druid I was running a year ago is still high in the meta.

Well the entire class is based on that combo. Even the aggro druids run it. Druid deck I think have changed the least in a year, only adding new cards to fill in spots that had to be taken up by weaker cards before.

What was in Druid before Darnassus Aspirant?  I've been playing Midrange Druid for the first time recently and they fill a very useful anti-aggro spot.

They were slower. In general you might have 2 Druid of the Claw, an MC Tech, Maybe a spot for Kezan during GvG. As it stand I only run 1 Aspirant. I found the Ramp from them to be only 50% successful and very dead in my hand late game.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on December 22, 2015, 11:45:44 am
Yeah, Coldlight Oracle is like the antithesis of a face deck.
Do Murloc tribal decks even run Coldlight Oracle? I see it more as a tool for mill and fatigue decks. The murloc tribal decks I've seen either don't have card draw or use other tools to draw cards (like Warlock Murloc using life tap).

fuck, i told myself 9 times not to write "coldlight oracle" instead of "coldlight seer", and still did it.  Blizz why you name cards this wayyyyyy
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on December 22, 2015, 12:34:15 pm
I gave in to the dark side and threw together a SMORC Warrior to finish a quest.  Rank 17, bitches.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on December 22, 2015, 12:56:06 pm
On Midrange Druid, here's what I'm running right now.

Quote
Innervate x2
Wild Growth x2
Darnassus Aspirant x2
Wrath x2
Savage Roar x2
Big Game Hunter
Shade of Naxxramas x2
Piloted Shredder x2
Keeper of the Grove x2
Swipe x2
Druid of the Claw
Sludge Belcher x2
Azure Drake x2
Emperor Thaurissan
Force of Nature x2
Ancient of Lore x2
Dr Boom

The list I started with had Sir Finley over the second Belcher.  That led to some great moments—20+ armour against a Freeze Mage—but I took it out after deciding that ramp was more important than playing something T1.  What changes are worth considering?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on December 22, 2015, 02:07:06 pm
On Midrange Druid, here's what I'm running right now.

Quote
Innervate x2
Wild Growth x2
Darnassus Aspirant x2
Wrath x2
Savage Roar x2
Big Game Hunter
Shade of Naxxramas x2
Piloted Shredder x2
Keeper of the Grove x2
Swipe x2
Druid of the Claw
Sludge Belcher x2
Azure Drake x2
Emperor Thaurissan
Force of Nature x2
Ancient of Lore x2
Dr Boom

The list I started with had Sir Finley over the second Belcher.  That led to some great moments—20+ armour against a Freeze Mage—but I took it out after deciding that ramp was more important than playing something T1.  What changes are worth considering?

I'll post what I'm running just for comparison, but whether or not mine is better, I don't know.  I'm also missing a lot of commonly used legends.

Quote
Innervate x2
Wild Growth x2
Wrath x2
Savage Roar x2
Healing Touch
Big Game Hunter
Shade of Naxxramas
Piloted Shredder x2
Keeper of the Grove x2
Swipe x2
Druid of the Claw x2
Sludge Belcher
Azure Drake
Sunwalker
Emperor Thaurissan
Force of Nature x2
Ancient of Lore x2
Ancient of War x2
Ragnaros

I don't have Aspirant and I'm not sure it's much worth it... most of the time it won't last a turn and therefore won't be worth much in terms of curve-bending.  It means that this deck is very high-cost though with the two AoW--but those two will often be useful to offset Dr. Win.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on December 24, 2015, 02:05:51 pm
Elise in Mill Rogue gives Mill Rogue a whole new win condition and lets it just draw lots of cards without caring. You can Mill your opponents or you can find the Golden Monkey.

Replace all those silly cards that just let you survive with card draw cards! Starseeker Rogue:

Key Cards:
Elise
Brann
Antique Healbot x 2
Prep x 2
Vanish x 2
Coldlight Oracle x 2
Gang Up x 2
Shadowstep x 2

Your favourite ways to draw cards:
Azure, Loot Horder, Sprint (I just use 1), Gnomish, Novice, Bloodmage

A little board clear:
Blade Flurry, Deadly Poison

Some more survivability/removal as needed:
Backstab, Eviscerate, Sap, Refreshment Vendor, Deathlord

I'm still playing around with what the right balance of card draw to other cards is, but that's the archetype. Find the monkey or just mill your opponents to death.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on December 24, 2015, 10:58:50 pm
So, I'm clearly missing something. But what's the strength of the Golden Monkey thing? It seems like a lot of hoops to jump through, just to transform your deck into all legendary cards. Nothing guarantees youll get _good_ legendary cards, though, right? And you could just put the good legendary cards in your deck to start with?

Like I said, I know I'm the one missing something; I'm just curious what it is.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on December 25, 2015, 12:07:57 am
So, I'm clearly missing something. But what's the strength of the Golden Monkey thing? It seems like a lot of hoops to jump through, just to transform your deck into all legendary cards. Nothing guarantees youll get _good_ legendary cards, though, right? And you could just put the good legendary cards in your deck to start with?

Like I said, I know I'm the one missing something; I'm just curious what it is.

1. It's super fun. 2. The Golden monkey is a really good minion on its own. 3. In a control matchup that's very slow, say priest vs priest, having so many big drops that they can't deal with will win you the game. It doesn't matter that Skeleton knight is a "bad card" normally, it's only bad because it takes up a slot. At some point he's fine because he's huge and has to be dealt with, and they run out of removal.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on December 25, 2015, 12:18:13 am
So, I'm clearly missing something. But what's the strength of the Golden Monkey thing? It seems like a lot of hoops to jump through, just to transform your deck into all legendary cards. Nothing guarantees youll get _good_ legendary cards, though, right? And you could just put the good legendary cards in your deck to start with?

Like I said, I know I'm the one missing something; I'm just curious what it is.
In a control mirror, you often end the game without an empty hand because some cards become unplayable, such as Shield Block and Acolyte of Pain. Golden Monkey transforms these into something potentially useful. (I'm not saying it's a good card, but that's why people would bother testing it in a deck.)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on December 26, 2015, 09:17:26 pm
So, I'm clearly missing something. But what's the strength of the Golden Monkey thing? It seems like a lot of hoops to jump through, just to transform your deck into all legendary cards. Nothing guarantees youll get _good_ legendary cards, though, right? And you could just put the good legendary cards in your deck to start with?

Like I said, I know I'm the one missing something; I'm just curious what it is.
In a control mirror, you often end the game without an empty hand because some cards become unplayable, such as Shield Block and Acolyte of Pain. Golden Monkey transforms these into something potentially useful. (I'm not saying it's a good card, but that's why people would bother testing it in a deck.)

This is basically it. You use it to close out a game turning cards you don't want any more into some random big minion. Most legendaries are big so it works that way now anyways, if there were a bunch of small to mid range legendaries to be released it wouldn't really work any longer.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on December 26, 2015, 09:31:15 pm
Well, in a control mirror, replacing any card that isn't already a big minion with a random big minion is decent to super good. The problem is that in practice it doesn't even work in control mirrors as well as it might look like on paper.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on December 28, 2015, 04:53:18 pm
Is Cairne Bloodhoof any good in constructed, or should I just scrap him for dust?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on December 28, 2015, 05:32:56 pm
Is Cairne Bloodhoof any good in constructed, or should I just scrap him for dust?

Yes.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on December 28, 2015, 07:16:34 pm
Is Cairne Bloodhoof any good in constructed, or should I just scrap him for dust?

Yes.

That... wasn't a yes/no question.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on December 28, 2015, 07:29:32 pm
Is Cairne Bloodhoof any good in constructed, or should I just scrap him for dust?

He used to be, he's not really played much any more, but he's not considered to be as strong as some other 6 drops. Notably Sylvanas is usually considered to be stronger as are some of the class cards in that range (Especially Highmane).

Off the top of my head I know I've seen people be more inclined to run Sylvanas, Highmane, Master Jouster, Piloted Sky Golem, Kodo Rider, Justicar, Reno and Black Knight over Cairne. Some people even prefer Boulderfist Ogre. I think most people who used to run Cairne for the value now run Piloted Sky Golems, you can run two of them and they do 6 damage which lets them trade with bigger minions that Cairne can't trade with. Plus they're a Mech if it matters.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on December 28, 2015, 08:16:35 pm
Is Cairne Bloodhoof any good in constructed, or should I just scrap him for dust?

He used to be, he's not really played much any more, but he's not considered to be as strong as some other 6 drops. Notably Sylvanas is usually considered to be stronger as are some of the class cards in that range (Especially Highmane).

Off the top of my head I know I've seen people be more inclined to run Sylvanas, Highmane, Master Jouster, Piloted Sky Golem, Kodo Rider, Justicar, Reno and Black Knight over Cairne. Some people even prefer Boulderfist Ogre. I think most people who used to run Cairne for the value now run Piloted Sky Golems, you can run two of them and they do 6 damage which lets them trade with bigger minions that Cairne can't trade with. Plus they're a Mech if it matters.

K.  Into the dust pile he goes.  Pity - all the other Legendaries I've popped so far are quite baller - Ragnaros, Dr. Boom, Onyxia, Hogger.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on December 28, 2015, 08:47:14 pm
UPDATE: Used Cairne's ashes to craft all the Secrets I need for Paladin.  Just played against two other Uthers and smeared their faces in my GET DOWNS and Avenges.  It was quite satisfying.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on December 29, 2015, 03:35:32 am
I would say Cairne is similar in usefulness to Hogger and slightly more useful than Onyxia.  It's probably not the worst thing to dust if you're more worried about playing good cards now than having a more complete collection later.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on December 29, 2015, 07:13:37 pm
Cairne used to be a staple midgame drop alongside Sylvanas. Vanilla Yetis were still playable in some classes (mostly Druid, I think), so Cairne was just crazy value. It also destroyed Control Priest, since it was almost impossible to remove in one or even two turns, and in control mirrors you'd rather use Mind Control on something like Rag or Ysera. And it traded well with Azure Drake, which was run in a ton of decks at the time.

But then Naxx came out with Sludge Belcher and Loatheb, and now Priests have Shrinkmeister + Cabal and Entomb, and people stopped playing Azure Drake as much. Now Cairne is in less than 1% of decks on Hearthpwn, compared to 2.2% for Piloted Sky Golem and 20% for Sylvanas. It's just too slow to be competitive. I've even taken him out of my mediocre Feign Death Hunter deck :(
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on December 29, 2015, 07:29:16 pm
you can come out and say that piloted sky golem over cairne is power creep

it's not wrong or jumping out on a limb to say that
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on December 29, 2015, 07:37:41 pm
Well, Cairne is not strictly weaker than Piloted Sky Golem. In the right meta, I could see myself playing Cairne over or in addition to PSG (not to be confused with PSG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panty_%26_Stocking_with_Garterbelt)). The main problem is that in the current meta, I would play neither, but it's not like it's a weak card in general.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on December 30, 2015, 04:28:27 pm
Recent successes:

When I started playing Zoo already meant Demon Zoo, so I thought I'd try something more classical.
Quote
Power Overwhelming x2
Voidwalker x2
Flame Imp x2
Abusive Sergeant x2
Haunted Creeper x2
Dire Wolf Alpha
Knife Juggler x2
Nerubian Egg x2
Ironbeak Owl x2
Dark Peddler x2
Imp Gang Boss x2
Defender of Argus x2
Dark Iron Dwarf x2
Implosion x2
Loatheb
Doomguard x2

It's pretty strong, and is also cheap for a Warlock deck.  Zoo is aggressive, but isn't a face deck: the idea is to take control of the board and never let it go.  You have PO and Doomguard for some burst to close out games, but don't be afraid to use them to make favourable trades.

If you want something crude but effective, try this variation of Secret Paladin:
Quote
Noble Sacrifice x2
Competitive Spirit
Avenge x2
Redemption
Repentance
Haunted Creeper x2
Knife Juggler x2
Shielded Minibot x2
Muster for Battle x2
Coghammer
Aldor Peacekeeper x2
Piloted Shredder x2
Keeper of Uldaman x2
Truesilver
Sludge Belcher x2
Loatheb
Mysterious Challenger x2
Dr Boom
Tirion

You cut out the inconsistent 1-drops to stuff it full of high value minions.  Midrange Druid lost steam for me at rank 3 this season, but this list powered straight through to legend in a few hours.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on January 04, 2016, 02:00:37 am
So face.  Very hunter.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on January 09, 2016, 12:52:56 am
I'm just going to have to give in and buy enough dust to craft Sylvanas and Boom, aren't I?  Is there much point to playing constructed without them?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on January 09, 2016, 01:12:23 am
I'm just going to have to give in and buy enough dust to craft Sylvanas and Boom, aren't I?  Is there much point to playing constructed without them?

Sylvannas is not essential and not used in most decks. Dr Boom is pretty much essential except in a few decks that are very aggressive or niche. But you dont need to pay money. You just need to play a bit and get rid of the useless cards in your collection. Or get good at arena :P
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on January 09, 2016, 01:26:31 am
Or get good at arena :P

This.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on January 09, 2016, 01:46:34 am
Or get good at arena :P

Got any pointers?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on January 09, 2016, 08:29:07 am
Or get good at arena :P

Got any pointers?

Use Heartharena to help draft.  For actually playing, watch streamers like Kripp and Trump to get a feel for when to coin, when to trade, when to not play cards, etc.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on January 09, 2016, 09:28:30 am
I crafted Sylvanas and haven't had too much use out of her, especially right now when the meta is extremely aggressive.  It's harder to defend the position that you won't get a lot of use out of Boom.

The only occasion I can remember Sylvanas mattering was one of my best recent moments playing Hearthstone.  I was playing Stalagg+Feugen Renolock against ... I thought a Priest, but probably another Warlock unless they were very lucky with Thoughtsteal ... who played PO+Shadowflame on one of their guys to clear my guy and a Sylvanas, summmoning two Thaddeus, who both came to rest on my side of the board.  Deathrattle timings people.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on January 09, 2016, 12:13:03 pm
Or get good at arena :P

Got any pointers?

Arena is dominated by decks that can play minions on curve. If you lose tempo, it's hard to comeback. So when you draft you want enough low cards to be able to play minions turn 2-4. Board clears are very strong, weapons are strong. Classes to play as are Rogue, Mage, Druid, Paladin and yes, Warrior isn't the worst anymore. It's actually pretty decent.

Each plays differently, but don't make the mistake of drafting amazing value card if you'll never get to play them. It sucks that there's no spectator mode for drafting, but like wero said, using heartharena is a good place to start. It's pretty good at drafting, but you need to sometimes be weary because it overvalues synergy in my opinion. Or at least it used to. Wero is also right that watching streamers helps with playing, if you can guess the play before they make it, or pause the video and see if you played the same. Essentially though you want to make efficient trades without losing tempo. Rogue is one of the ebst classes because she has tons of early removal spells like deadly poison and backstab that are high tempo. They cost very little and do a lot. You use up your cards faster, but many of my games in arena are decided by turns 5-6. You can go 10wins with a deck that only have one 6 drop and nothing bigger if you can play enough stuff that can't be removed.

Also remember that arena can be high variance. Sometimes your best play is to play into flamestrike, because you can not win any other way. If they have it you lose, if they don't you win. In fact, this is something that improved my play a lot. Try to see how you will win this game and how your opponent is trying to win the game. If they are spamming minions and hitting your hero, they are probably going to try to win as fast as possible and you can try to control their minions and heal yourself, but if they are making trades, they are probably playing a control game. You can't tell if a deck is aggro or control by the hero in arena. Remember that you are not trying to draft a constructed deck, you are drafting a tempo deck that plays minions on curve.

And don't play around cards religiously. Sometimes you can only win by taking a risk, especially if you're behind in the game.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on January 09, 2016, 01:04:01 pm
Also bear in mind that as you win more games, you're going to be playing against decks that have also won lots of games, and it becomes more and more likely that your opponent will have Flamestrike or Lightbomb or Brawl.  Once you get past 3-4 wins, bear in mind that you're going to start facing off with people who are practically playing constructed.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on January 09, 2016, 01:26:30 pm
Also bear in mind that as you win more games, you're going to be playing against decks that have also won lots of games, and it becomes more and more likely that your opponent will have Flamestrike or Lightbomb or Brawl.

This is not entirely accurate, as Lightbomb and Brawl are epics so there's no point in ever playing around them (you shouldn't even play around rares, really, aside from some edge cases where there's already a good reason to believe your opponent has been setting up that card), and having just a really solid deck that doesn't actually have the card that everyone is playing around can be very successful a lot of the time. But it's generally true that the more you win, the more you want to play around things, especially against decks/players that don't seem as good as you getting matched against them would suggest. It's also worth keeping in mind that the more cards your opponent has drawn, the more likely it is that he'll have a card that exists in his deck — turn 4 Consecrations are somewhat unusual, turn 7 Flamestrikes aren't.

Once you get past 3-4 wins, bear in mind that you're going to start facing off with people who are practically playing constructed.

This is entirely inaccurate. People who are practically playing constructed are so rare that there's hardly even any correlation with how many wins you have. I get to 12 wins semi-regularly and I only ever remember playing against two decks that could have almost passed for a bad constructed deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on January 09, 2016, 04:06:04 pm
Often you're not regularly playing against good decks till around 8-9 wins. I never play around epics or rates unless it would completely lose me the game if hey had that card. Like I often don't play a 4th small minion if I have three huge minions in case MCtech can lose me the game. In fact, often you can get to 7-8 wins with minion only decks that just play goodinikns in curve and you trade well and read what your opponent is doing.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on January 13, 2016, 02:36:29 am
Well, it sure *feels* like these are constructed decks I'm playing against with 1 win.

I was already using HearthArena.  My most recent runs have been Mage (1 win), Priest (1 win), Paladin (2 wins, but one was a disconnection).  I don't feel like I made any major misplays in this last run.

Also, do Arena runs only award classic packs now?

Edit:  Or maybe it's just time to admit that my brain isn't what it used to be.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on January 13, 2016, 03:29:08 am
I came back to Hearthstone after a ~2 month break and noticed I did significantly worse in arena. I used to get 5+ wins pretty consistently, now I lose a lot of runs at 3-4 wins. The average skill level has definitely gone up, or maybe I haven't adapted to the new arena meta (which changes every set.)

Ideally, you want to find ways to trade efficiently on your turn, and find ways that prevent your opponent from trading efficiently on their turn. Sometimes this means leaving a minion at 5+ health against Paladin because the most common removal caps at 4 damage from Truesilver. Sometimes it means avoiding having a 1 health minion against Mage, or trading such that you have multiple 1 health minions because they can only kill one of them.

IMO, the hard part of Hearthstone is deciding what cards to play around and which ones to not.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on January 13, 2016, 08:09:31 am
Well, it sure *feels* like these are constructed decks I'm playing against with 1 win.

I was already using HearthArena.  My most recent runs have been Mage (1 win), Priest (1 win), Paladin (2 wins, but one was a disconnection).  I don't feel like I made any major misplays in this last run.

Also, do Arena runs only award classic packs now?

Edit:  Or maybe it's just time to admit that my brain isn't what it used to be.
Sometimes you just get unlucky.
I probably average between 7 and 8 wins, but I still get runs of bad luck sometimes.

Maybe you're tilting slightly, maybe your opponents are just getting god draws and you not so much.  3 consecutive bad runs doesn't necessarily mean anything.
I'd say keep at it - if it carries on being bad then that might be a sign that you're doing something wrong, in which case, well, practice makes perfect.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Lammetje on January 13, 2016, 08:29:36 am
I noticed the same thing, I used to average around 7 wins and generaly made profit from arena. Then I played a lot less for a couple of months and noticed that when I started playing again I won considerably less. My opponents just seemed to have all the anwers and good cards while it always felt awkward from my side.

Once I started playing a little bit more I noticed that my winrate went up again and I could once again run arena's somewhat profitably. Maybe it is coincidence, but I feel that after not playing for a while you make a lot more small subtle mistakes which impact your winrate by quite a lot. Getting 11/ 12 to wins does seem a quite a bit harder then before however.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on January 13, 2016, 11:54:41 am
Hm.  I guess taking a whole year off would probably have even greater effect, then...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on January 13, 2016, 11:58:32 am
I came back to Hearthstone after a ~2 month break and noticed I did significantly worse in arena. I used to get 5+ wins pretty consistently, now I lose a lot of runs at 3-4 wins. The average skill level has definitely gone up, or maybe I haven't adapted to the new arena meta (which changes every set.)

Well, the new meta is certainly very different from pre-LoE. Before LoE, if you got Paladin, you were simply guaranteed to win until you started facing other Paladins, and now it's not even the best class.

I was already using HearthArena.  My most recent runs have been Mage (1 win), Priest (1 win), Paladin (2 wins, but one was a disconnection).  I don't feel like I made any major misplays in this last run.

Also, do Arena runs only award classic packs now?

Avoid picking Priest. I think it's one of the two classes you should never pick (the other one being Hunter), but even if I'm wrong about that, it's definitely one of the worst.

Arena runs award random packs now.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on January 13, 2016, 12:06:41 pm
Priest and Hunter are indeed to worst. Paladin is ok, but can be affected for variance easily. Same as mage. Warrior actually has low variance and it's average draft is pretty decent. Rogue too since the League card she got were pretty strong. I'd avoid Warlock too if you can.

@Kirian, I haven't used heartharena in a while so I don't know how it drafts. But how you mulligan is really important, and this comes from knowing the composition of your deck. And how you trade/when you go for face is also really important. I had a draft a few weeks ago where I just played anything in hand and went face, and it went 9 wins because that was the only way that deck could win.

And yes, arena has become much higher in variance than before.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on January 13, 2016, 03:45:54 pm
Paladin is ok, but can be affected for variance easily.
See, I find Paladin to be one of my most consistent arena classes.

I think among the not-rubbish classes a lot of difference is made by play style and draft style.
Everyone rants about mage, but my mages usually do OK-but-not-fab.  I think I draft too many spells.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on January 13, 2016, 04:33:33 pm
I haven't played Warrior in Arena for awhile. How much of a boost would you say LoE has been for Warrior? Am I right to believe Cursed Blade is an okay pick for Warrior in Arena?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on January 13, 2016, 04:47:39 pm
I haven't played Warrior in Arena for awhile. How much of a boost would you say LoE has been for Warrior? Am I right to believe Cursed Blade is an okay pick for Warrior in Arena?

A massive boost. I pick Warrior over Hunter, Priest and Warlock. It might even be better than Shaman. I think Cursed Blade is horrible, but I might be mistaken.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on January 13, 2016, 05:41:05 pm
I haven't played Warrior in Arena for awhile. How much of a boost would you say LoE has been for Warrior? Am I right to believe Cursed Blade is an okay pick for Warrior in Arena?

A massive boost. I pick Warrior over Hunter, Priest and Warlock. It might even be better than Shaman. I think Cursed Blade is horrible, but I might be mistaken.

I'm thinking Cursed Blade wouldn't be so bad if you only received double damage when attacking, or after being attack. Just not both at once. But then, it was seeing some play in aggro Warrior. I don't know if that's still around.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on January 13, 2016, 08:09:05 pm
I haven't played Warrior in Arena for awhile. How much of a boost would you say LoE has been for Warrior? Am I right to believe Cursed Blade is an okay pick for Warrior in Arena?

A massive boost. I pick Warrior over Hunter, Priest and Warlock. It might even be better than Shaman. I think Cursed Blade is horrible, but I might be mistaken.

I'm thinking Cursed Blade wouldn't be so bad if you only received double damage when attacking, or after being attack. Just not both at once. But then, it was seeing some play in aggro Warrior. I don't know if that's still around.

Cursed blade is rare. The boost is mostly that TGT is no liger boosted, and the 2 boosted one are amazing. Cursed blade hardly affects anything, but it still pretty bad. Below average
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on January 21, 2016, 07:42:16 pm
I was quite pleased with myself this morning.  I managed to beat a Renolock in a game that went to fatigue with my generic control Priest.  I even forgot to put back in Circle of Healing for Auchenai!  The only card remaining to me was the Jaraxxus I Entombed (his Voidcaller popped it out).  I got him down to, like, 9 Health, and then he Reno'd.  In the end, he conceded by Life Tapping into lethal fatigue.  Rank 10, by the way.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on January 21, 2016, 07:45:15 pm
Opposing Druid:

T1:  Coin, Mechwarper
T2:  Innervate, Fel Reaver

Alas, all but one of my cards were 4s and higher...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on January 21, 2016, 07:48:42 pm
Opposing Druid:

T1:  Coin, Mechwarper
T2:  Innervate, Fel Reaver

Alas, all but one of my cards were 4s and higher...

Sounds like you need a better curve in your deck.  Or at least a better mulligan.  What class were you playing?  An opening Frostbolt/Wrath/Darkbomb/Pain would have dealt with that warper quite nicely.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on January 21, 2016, 07:57:34 pm
Opposing Druid:

T1:  Coin, Mechwarper
T2:  Innervate, Fel Reaver

Alas, all but one of my cards were 4s and higher...

Sounds like you need a better curve in your deck.  Or at least a better mulligan.  What class were you playing?  An opening Frostbolt/Wrath/Darkbomb/Pain would have dealt with that warper quite nicely.

Renolock with a somewhat high curve... but yes, I had a terrible mulligan... a bunch of 5s/6s into more 5s/6s.

I have wondered for some time if P2 has a significant advantage.  Coin, bonus card, bonus mulligan... it feels imbalanced.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on January 21, 2016, 08:08:50 pm
Opposing Druid:

T1:  Coin, Mechwarper
T2:  Innervate, Fel Reaver

Alas, all but one of my cards were 4s and higher...

Sounds like you need a better curve in your deck.  Or at least a better mulligan.  What class were you playing?  An opening Frostbolt/Wrath/Darkbomb/Pain would have dealt with that warper quite nicely.

Renolock with a somewhat high curve... but yes, I had a terrible mulligan... a bunch of 5s/6s into more 5s/6s.

I have wondered for some time if P2 has a significant advantage.  Coin, bonus card, bonus mulligan... it feels imbalanced.

You might want to include a few more 1/2/3 cost cards.  Flame Imp, Mortal Coil, Dark Peddler (very good), Voidwalker... if you're not really doing anything turns 1-4, it won't matter how good the rest of your deck is, unless you're playing a Control Warrior or Freeze Mage, and even they have Fiery War Axe or Mad Scientist.

Blizzard has said that even with the coin/extra card, Player 1 still wins more of the time.  It's only a few points over 50%, but still noticeable.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on January 21, 2016, 08:23:26 pm
I think there's significant P2 advantage in some matchups and P1 advantage in some others. For aggro and midrange decks playing against each other, being constantly half a turn ahead of your opponent is really good, but for control decks, mulliganing into the early game answers and coining into the slightly more expensive early game answers are more important.

Druid is just a stupid class in constructed in general, you might fall way behind very early on if they have an awesome starting hand and if you're in the lead, they can still just suddenly kill you with an OTK that you had every way of foreseeing and no way of preventing.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on January 21, 2016, 11:10:02 pm
I think that deck has 13 cards at 1-3, and another 6 at 4.  Just unlucky draws.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on January 23, 2016, 04:05:52 am
I played a Nexus-Champion Saraad and hero powered with no mana left, and went to click End Turn, then I thought "Wait, I could get a 0 mana spell", then thought "Well, the only 0 mana card that I might actually want to play right now is Innervate." Then I got Innervate.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on January 30, 2016, 06:43:21 am
You can now if you drew a 0 mana spell cuz end turn button would be yellow (assuming no attacks or other 0 mana spells available) instead of green.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on January 31, 2016, 05:23:12 pm
Is there a point to keeping around incredibly bad cards rather than dusting them to get Boom?  I have a pair of Far Sights and a Tree of Life that... do they ever get played?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on January 31, 2016, 05:23:42 pm
On a separate note:  Worth opening the last three wings of Blackrock Mountain?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Watno on January 31, 2016, 05:38:47 pm
Is there a point to keeping around incredibly bad cards rather than dusting them to get Boom?  I have a pair of Far Sights and a Tree of Life that... do they ever get played?

I think Tree of Life is sometimes played in Mill druid, and I've never seen a deck running Far sight I think. If you're not aiming to get a full collection, you can defintely disenchant all these cards.

There are some decent cards in the last wings of BRM, but the only essential one (except if you're going for a Dragon deck, obviously) is Flamewaker (for Tempo Mage) I think.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on January 31, 2016, 05:41:11 pm
On a separate note:  Worth opening the last three wings of Blackrock Mountain?

Yes, if you want to make a Dragon Priest.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on January 31, 2016, 06:51:23 pm
On a separate note:  Worth opening the last three wings of Blackrock Mountain?

If you want Tempo Mage or Dragon Anything, yes.

Also Demonwrath for Reno, Egg for Eggdruid.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on January 31, 2016, 08:52:45 pm
Is there a point to keeping around incredibly bad cards rather than dusting them to get Boom?  I have a pair of Far Sights and a Tree of Life that... do they ever get played?

I think Tree of Life is sometimes played in Mill druid, and I've never seen a deck running Far sight I think. If you're not aiming to get a full collection, you can defintely disenchant all these cards.

There are some decent cards in the last wings of BRM, but the only essential one (except if you're going for a Dragon deck, obviously) is Flamewaker (for Tempo Mage) I think.

Also I think it's worth keeping cards with particularly unusual effects because you don't know if there will be some crazy combo that they can be used for in the future.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on February 07, 2016, 10:52:30 am
Man, my OTK Malygos Mage is fucking sick.  At least at lower levels.  We'll see how well it fares as I climb past level 16.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on February 07, 2016, 11:03:20 am
Man, my OTK Malygos Mage is fucking sick.  At least at lower levels.  We'll see how well it fares as I climb past level 16.

What spells do you run for the OTK? Mage doesn't have a lot of low level spells that you can take advantage of. Arcane Missiles, Rhonin, Arcane Blasts but they can't go face. Fireballs can't be played at the same time as Malygos.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on February 07, 2016, 11:27:38 am
Man, my OTK Malygos Mage is fucking sick.  At least at lower levels.  We'll see how well it fares as I climb past level 16.

What spells do you run for the OTK? Mage doesn't have a lot of low level spells that you can take advantage of. Arcane Missiles, Rhonin, Arcane Blasts but they can't go face. Fireballs can't be played at the same time as Malygos.

Frostbolt and Ice Lance.  Get two of each (or 2 of one and 1 of the other if the opponent has taken some damage) with Malygos in hand, then drop Thaurissan on turn 9.  Kill 'em on turn 10, provided there wasn't a Loatheb.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on February 07, 2016, 01:00:00 pm
Man, my OTK Malygos Mage is fucking sick.  At least at lower levels.  We'll see how well it fares as I climb past level 16.

What spells do you run for the OTK? Mage doesn't have a lot of low level spells that you can take advantage of. Arcane Missiles, Rhonin, Arcane Blasts but they can't go face. Fireballs can't be played at the same time as Malygos.

Frostbolt and Ice Lance.  Get two of each (or 2 of one and 1 of the other if the opponent has taken some damage) with Malygos in hand, then drop Thaurissan on turn 9.  Kill 'em on turn 10, provided there wasn't a Loatheb.

True, the ice lance stuff is strong. Do you have antonidas? Similar effect, but cheaper to play so you don't need thaurissan to get a few extra fireballs. Then your deck starts to look more like freeze mage I suppose and less like an OTK deck. Also if you're playing with OTK stuff you could consider alextrasa, although perhaps its best to wait with crafting anything until after the new nerfs and game modes get put in.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on February 07, 2016, 06:51:40 pm
I don't have any class legendaries.  I only decided to go with this because I got Malygos in a pack.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on February 07, 2016, 09:46:35 pm
I don't have any class legendaries.  I only decided to go with this because I got Malygos in a pack.

That's fair. Rogue OTK has been done a lot too so you could try that, with Sinister Strikes and Eviscerates. Shaman OTK can be a thing too, but Shaman is pretty terrible now if it isn't aggro.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on February 08, 2016, 02:34:30 am
I don't have any class legendaries.  I only decided to go with this because I got Malygos in a pack.

That's fair. Rogue OTK has been done a lot too so you could try that, with Sinister Strikes and Eviscerates. Shaman OTK can be a thing too, but Shaman is pretty terrible now if it isn't aggro.

Priest OTK is my favorite, if only because it's so hilaribad that when it works, it's that much more awesome.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on February 08, 2016, 09:35:04 am
I don't have any class legendaries.  I only decided to go with this because I got Malygos in a pack.

That's fair. Rogue OTK has been done a lot too so you could try that, with Sinister Strikes and Eviscerates. Shaman OTK can be a thing too, but Shaman is pretty terrible now if it isn't aggro.

Priest OTK is my favorite, if only because it's so hilaribad that when it works, it's that much more awesome.

I like the Mage version because there's Arcane Intellect, you can ping Acolyte of Pain if necessary, and you still have decent board clears, and decent minion removal (Polymorph, Flamecannon until the next expansion).  Mad Scientist also helps winnow out your deck (again, until the next expansion).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on February 08, 2016, 02:19:20 pm
I've been running my own special build of Dragon Hunter modified to use Malygos instead of Ysera thus using damage spells instead of secrets. So far it has done exceptionally well (probably 60-80 games played on it). It has a few win conditions but the Malygos one is just so much more fun.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on February 08, 2016, 02:43:33 pm
I've been running my own special build of Dragon Hunter modified to use Malygos instead of Ysera thus using damage spells instead of secrets. So far it has done exceptionally well (probably 60-80 games played on it). It has a few win conditions but the Malygos one is just so much more fun.

I'm curious to see a Dragon Hunter list.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on February 25, 2016, 04:18:48 pm
What's with everybody playing Secretkeeper/Coin/secret T1 on an empty board in the Paladin mirror?  That's just bad right?  Leaks information and buys you nothing.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on February 25, 2016, 04:24:43 pm
If it is avenge and you can follow up with Minibot, I don't see why not. Also if opponent draws keeper you dont buff it.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on February 25, 2016, 04:30:06 pm
Yeah, avenge is a fine t1 play. And it stops your opponent from playing secrets too. I wouldn't do it with noble sacrifice though. That's usually a waste. Redemption I repentance seems ok too.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on February 25, 2016, 04:50:08 pm
If it is avenge and you can follow up with Minibot, I don't see why not. Also if opponent draws keeper you dont buff it.

This is a potential reason, although I'm not completely sold on it. 

Blocking your opponent's secrets is not a reason to coin out yours.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on February 25, 2016, 04:57:00 pm
So you have Keeper, Avenge, Coin, Minibot, and muster. How do you play it out?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on February 25, 2016, 05:41:57 pm
Well, I guess coining out the Avenge prevents stuff like Argent Lance killing your Secretkeeper.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on February 25, 2016, 05:42:59 pm
It's looking more reasonable, but my instinct is still to hold coin and the secret to smooth the curve and hopefully cheat out a T5 Challenger; I guess I don't see the extra stats on the Secretkeeper as a big deal.  In fact I'm still slightly iffy on Secretkeeper: until very recently I was playing a much more value oriented list with double Belchers, but it saw so much play in the qualifiers that I thought I'd give it another shot.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on February 25, 2016, 08:38:11 pm
So you have Keeper, Avenge, Coin, Minibot, and muster. How do you play it out?
But like, you can also coin out the Avenge Turn 2. This is about the same if your opponent can do 2 damage turn 2 but not 3 damage. Murloc Paladins actually can do 2 damage Turn 2 with Bluegill Warrior. You can't tell that early if you're facing Murloc Paladin so maybe it is best to play on the safe side and coin the secret Turn 1.

Similar idea with Mana Wyrm + Coin + Mirror Image. Unless you are worried about Fiery War Axe, you can save the Coin + Mirror Image for Turn 2 if the Wyrm wasn't killed by Dark Bomb or something.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on February 25, 2016, 11:03:34 pm
So you guys plan on living in the Wild or playing Standard when the change comes?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on February 25, 2016, 11:27:06 pm
So you guys plan on living in the Wild or playing Standard when the change comes?

I like to think that I'll be living in the Wild for awhile. That's where the fun decks are. I'll probably play some standard too to see what kind of fun can be had with the TGT cards that went mostly ignored up until now. And down the line we might get some cool new Mechs. Gorilla Bot is already kinda cool, but is going to be terrible on Standard given how lame the Mechs were pre-GvG unless the next expansion changes that.

Standard format means they don't have to power creep GvG and Naxx and instead keep releasing expansions with a similar power level. They better not power power creep the expansions anyway with the mindset of "oh they'll be gone in two years".

I expect the coming expansions to mostly contain modest cards sprinkled with a few Thaurissans.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on February 26, 2016, 12:23:24 am
I'll be playing Wild because I only play Constructed when I can't get my quests done through Arena, and I'm too lazy to build new decks.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on February 26, 2016, 12:48:37 am
Wild will porbably be the same as now. I'll be trying standard because it introduces more thinking in terms of deck building, at least at the start. Should be fun. Wild will be fun the longer hearthstone exists.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on February 26, 2016, 04:11:26 am
I expect to mostly play Standard as it will be the main competitive format.  Wild will probably take over the role of Casual, for playing decks I don't particularly love to complete quests.  I'm sure I'll still play Wild when I have an itch to play some of the old decks.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on February 26, 2016, 05:56:34 am
Both, ez. I come from magic, juggling ONLY 2 formats is a piece of cake.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on February 27, 2016, 01:18:04 pm
I just though of a great way to nerf FoN/SR without really making either card unplayable on their own.

Change Savage Roar to: "+2 Attack this turn to all friendly characters who were not summoned this turn."
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Watno on February 27, 2016, 01:20:31 pm
I'm pretty sure that makes Force of nature unplayable.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on February 27, 2016, 02:33:14 pm
I'm pretty sure that makes Force of nature unplayable.

Just because it doesn't work on Charge minions played this turn?  I'm pretty sure you're exaggerating.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on February 27, 2016, 02:39:36 pm
So, you would play FoN just for 6 damage spread across as you want?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on February 27, 2016, 02:56:02 pm
I'm pretty sure that makes Force of nature unplayable.

Just because it doesn't work on Charge minions played this turn?  I'm pretty sure you're exaggerating.

Yes, Savage Roar is still good without Force of Nature.  But Force of Nature is kind of weak without Savage Roar.

It's just struck me that Force of Nature and Wobbling Runts are fast and slow version of a similar concept.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on February 27, 2016, 03:04:41 pm
I'm pretty sure that makes Force of nature unplayable.

Just because it doesn't work on Charge minions played this turn?  I'm pretty sure you're exaggerating.

Yes, Savage Roar is still good without Force of Nature.  But Force of Nature is kind of weak without Savage Roar.

It's just struck me that Force of Nature and Wobbling Runts are fast and slow version of a similar concept.

Oh, sorry, reading comprehension.  I thought watno was saying Savage Roar would be unplayable.  Silly me.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: blueblimp on February 27, 2016, 05:31:23 pm
I think that if Savage Roar isn't rotated out (and they seem to be refusing to rotate out any basic/classic cards), it needs a nerf that prevents it from being used as a finisher at all. Something like "this turn, give your characters +2 attack and can't attack heroes". The core strength of the combo is being able to spend 3 mana for 8 face damage, and Force of Nature is just a reliable way to get the 3 minions out that you need to do it.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on February 28, 2016, 01:36:29 am
One option that seems less clunky is to make it +3 Attack and up the mana to compensate. Shamans have Bloodlust, I could see a 6 or 7 mana "+3 attack to all characters" card.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on February 28, 2016, 02:26:44 am
Savage Roar is the problem, not Force of nature. Very often Savage Roar give insane damage for the mana cost even without Force of Nature. I would not be surprised if it gets the nerf over Force of nature.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on February 29, 2016, 11:04:12 am
Savage Roar is the problem, not Force of nature. Very often Savage Roar give insane damage for the mana cost even without Force of Nature. I would not be surprised if it gets the nerf over Force of nature.
Yeah they already tried nerfing FoN and it did absolutely nothing to how played the combo was.  I can only assume they'll try nerfing Roar next - makes more sense anyway.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: XerxesPraelor on February 29, 2016, 11:52:53 pm
Someone just pulled Mal'Ganis as the "random demon" for that "do two damage, summon a random demon if it kills", and then got it a second time in the same game.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on March 01, 2016, 02:20:33 am
Someone just pulled Mal'Ganis as the "random demon" for that "do two damage, summon a random demon if it kills", and then got it a second time in the same game.

Bane of Doom always summons Mal'Ganis.  Didn't you know?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on March 01, 2016, 04:58:44 am
Someone just pulled Mal'Ganis as the "random demon" for that "do two damage, summon a random demon if it kills", and then got it a second time in the same game.

Bane of Doom always summons Mal'Ganis.  Didn't you know?
See qmech's personal text.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on March 01, 2016, 05:05:05 am
Someone just pulled Mal'Ganis as the "random demon" for that "do two damage, summon a random demon if it kills", and then got it a second time in the same game.

Bane of Doom always summons Mal'Ganis.  Didn't you know?

Your opponent's Bane of Doom, that is. Your own Bane of Doom always summons Blood Imp.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on March 01, 2016, 03:31:10 pm
Prep/Coin/Coin/Sap Loatheb is not a play you want to make as Miracle Rogue.

So J4CKIECHAN's zooey Camel Hunter (http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/437998-j4ckiechans-1-legend-eu-injured-camel-hunter) is interesting.  He finished top EU with it last night, which surely involved both luck and surprise factor.  I've been playing it a bit today, and it's playing well, although we're obviously still very early in the season. 
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on March 01, 2016, 06:43:21 pm
Oh, the quintessential Prep-Coin-Concede.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on March 01, 2016, 07:37:42 pm
So J4CKIECHAN's zooey Camel Hunter (http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/437998-j4ckiechans-1-legend-eu-injured-camel-hunter) is interesting.  He finished top EU with it last night, which surely involved both luck and surprise factor.  I've been playing it a bit today, and it's playing well, although we're obviously still very early in the season.

I ran the Injured Kvaldir-Desert Camel combo for a little while! It's surprisingly strong. This version of the deck is different from mine because it has no Secrets and no Burn cards. I'll have to try this all minion version, but I'll probably at least move in some Quick Shots or Kill Commands.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on March 01, 2016, 08:15:04 pm
So J4CKIECHAN's zooey Camel Hunter (http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/437998-j4ckiechans-1-legend-eu-injured-camel-hunter) is interesting.  He finished top EU with it last night, which surely involved both luck and surprise factor.  I've been playing it a bit today, and it's playing well, although we're obviously still very early in the season.

I ran the Injured Kvaldir-Desert Camel combo for a little while! It's surprisingly strong. This version of the deck is different from mine because it has no Secrets and no Burn cards. I'll have to try this all minion version, but I'll probably at least move in some Quick Shots or Kill Commands.

Hah, Injured Kvaldir was on Kripp's Best and Worst of TGT list as one of the worst/pointless TGT cards. I wonder what he thinks nows?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on March 02, 2016, 12:55:16 am
So J4CKIECHAN's zooey Camel Hunter (http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/437998-j4ckiechans-1-legend-eu-injured-camel-hunter) is interesting.  He finished top EU with it last night, which surely involved both luck and surprise factor.  I've been playing it a bit today, and it's playing well, although we're obviously still very early in the season.

I ran the Injured Kvaldir-Desert Camel combo for a little while! It's surprisingly strong. This version of the deck is different from mine because it has no Secrets and no Burn cards. I'll have to try this all minion version, but I'll probably at least move in some Quick Shots or Kill Commands.

Hah, Injured Kvaldir was on Kripp's Best and Worst of TGT list as one of the worst/pointless TGT cards. I wonder what he thinks nows?

You certainly never want to play it from your hand for one mana.  It's not even worth playing it with Circle of Healing in Priest.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on March 02, 2016, 01:17:50 am
Oh, the quintessential Prep-Coin-Concede.

I was so hoping for the concede, but it never came!

There's quite a low ceiling on how popular Camel can be.  There are already games when you don't really want to play it because you know it will pull out a Mana Wyrm or a Northshire Cleric.  If Camels are ever all over the place then everybody just starts playing 1-of Zombie Chows or something.  Something like Knife Juggler/Camel/Unleash mitigates the downsides somewhat, but needing to be ready to deal with the opposing one drop makes Camel much clunkier.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on March 02, 2016, 11:16:10 am
So J4CKIECHAN's zooey Camel Hunter (http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/437998-j4ckiechans-1-legend-eu-injured-camel-hunter) is interesting.  He finished top EU with it last night, which surely involved both luck and surprise factor.  I've been playing it a bit today, and it's playing well, although we're obviously still very early in the season.

I ran the Injured Kvaldir-Desert Camel combo for a little while! It's surprisingly strong. This version of the deck is different from mine because it has no Secrets and no Burn cards. I'll have to try this all minion version, but I'll probably at least move in some Quick Shots or Kill Commands.

Hah, Injured Kvaldir was on Kripp's Best and Worst of TGT list as one of the worst/pointless TGT cards. I wonder what he thinks nows?

You certainly never want to play it from your hand for one mana.  It's not even worth playing it with Circle of Healing in Priest.

No, you definitely only run it in Hunter for playing against matchups that don't have a 1 drop in which it's a huge tempo swing when played with Camel. Playing it from hand is always bad (but sometimes you just have to).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on March 03, 2016, 02:49:39 pm
Yesterday I was watching somebody learning Oil Rogue, and they were greatly frustrated by not being able to predict the offbeat decks they were playing against.  I thought I'd give it a try in sympathy, and in my first ever game a Priest hit me in the face for 20 with a Deathlord on T5.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on March 03, 2016, 05:22:16 pm
Yesterday I was watching somebody learning Oil Rogue, and they were greatly frustrated by not being able to predict the offbeat decks they were playing against.  I thought I'd give it a try in sympathy, and in my first ever game a Priest hit me in the face for 20 with a Deathlord on T5.

At what rank are you trying this deck? At low ranks decks are unpredictable. It's a lot more diverse, but at the same time it may not be the best way to learn to play a deck. It is a good way to learn how to predict decks though :P
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on March 03, 2016, 05:44:41 pm
Yesterday I was watching somebody learning Oil Rogue, and they were greatly frustrated by not being able to predict the offbeat decks they were playing against.  I thought I'd give it a try in sympathy, and in my first ever game a Priest hit me in the face for 20 with a Deathlord on T5.

At what rank are you trying this deck? At low ranks decks are unpredictable. It's a lot more diverse, but at the same time it may not be the best way to learn to play a deck. It is a good way to learn how to predict decks though :P

I was playing my Reno Lock against a Secret Paladin at the start of the season at Rank 19. After dealing with a Challenger, silencing a Tirion and inefficiently dealing with Dr. Boom, I stabilized and got to the point where I had 2 copies of Thaddius on the board(one was a Faceless of Stalagg). My opponent then threw down Eadric The Pure! I still won though, but the game had to drag on for like another 5 turns.

I guess at that rank, people put it whatever awesome-looking Legendaries they have into their deck. It was one of the only times I've seen Eadric at all.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on March 03, 2016, 06:21:02 pm
Yesterday I was watching somebody learning Oil Rogue, and they were greatly frustrated by not being able to predict the offbeat decks they were playing against.  I thought I'd give it a try in sympathy, and in my first ever game a Priest hit me in the face for 20 with a Deathlord on T5.

At what rank are you trying this deck? At low ranks decks are unpredictable. It's a lot more diverse, but at the same time it may not be the best way to learn to play a deck. It is a good way to learn how to predict decks though :P

It's season reset, so it doesn't make much difference, but it was rank 15.  What you say is exactly why the stream was so funny, as the poor guy just wanted to practice for tournaments and he kept losing to random nonsense like Mountain Giant Zoo.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on March 04, 2016, 12:01:40 am
I opened Wilfred Fizzlebang today. I'm hoping that in standard decks are slow enough that he can be used, even in a fun deck. I now have all the legends for Druid, Warlock, Shaman and Warrior. Granted, I crafted a bunch of the legends, but still have a complete legend set for those classes.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on March 04, 2016, 11:26:39 pm
Ooh, I just opened Alexstrasza (thank you, Watch and Learn)! Just in time for the Standard balance changes in case Alex gets nerfed.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on March 05, 2016, 03:32:50 am
Holy shit this is in a real ranked match:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeAzRKJnyv4

In case you don't want to watch, the basics:  double Cho, double Deathlord, Divine Spirits back and forth causes ridiculously high HP on every minion on the field.  The opposing mage puts down a Flamewaker and starts doing ~8 damage a turn, which threatens to kill the priest by adding to fatigue damage... so this guy kills the Flamewaker by integer overflow.  It turns out 2^31 health rolls over to -2^31 - 1.

It's a troll deck, but it might be fun to try out...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on March 05, 2016, 09:24:26 am
We'll apparently be hearing about the next expansion next Friday.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on March 05, 2016, 02:20:08 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfIFSZBKKT0
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on March 05, 2016, 04:02:34 pm
Disguised Toast is amazing.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on March 05, 2016, 04:12:57 pm
Pretty lame that when Dragons of Tarkir in MTG came out, HS done Blackrock. Now when Eldrich Moon comes out in MTG, HS is apparently also doing some eldrich horror.. coincidence?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on March 05, 2016, 04:29:26 pm
Pretty lame that when Dragons of Tarkir in MTG came out, HS done Blackrock. Now when Eldrich Moon comes out in MTG, HS is apparently also doing some eldrich horror.. coincidence?

Just trying to compete. I don't really care, to be honest. It's still Warcraft Lore, it's still cool. If it's a fun expansion, I don't care how it's themed really.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on March 08, 2016, 08:20:52 am
I'm looking to crowdsource some help on my Beast Druid.  It's never going to be super awesome, but I'm hoping it'll play okay in standard when it comes out (depending on balance changes).  Here's how it looks currently, followed by a few questions:

Innervate x2
Living Roots
Wrath x2
Dire Wolf Alpha x2
Huge Toad x2
Savage Roar
Druid of the Flame x2
King Mukla
Mounted Raptor x2
Swipe x2
Keeper of the Grove x2
Savage Combatant x2
Wildwalker x2
Druid of the Claw x2
Druid of the Fang x2
Force of Nature
Knight of the Wild x2

The point of the deck is to abuse DotF and KotW as best as possible, getting them out early (T 3-5) as big bodies.  This isn't about long games, generally, so if we have more than 10 turns and it isn't decided, generally we lose. 

Current questions:

--should I add 1 drops?  All beasts suck anyway, and I'm always looking to Innervate/Coin early anyway.
--should I replace Dire Wolf Alphas with something bigger/better?
--is there a better 3-drop beast than Huge Toad?
--should I run Defenders of Argus?

Possible 2-drops: Mark of the Wild (to add taunt/survivability), Power of the Wild (for flexibility or 3/2 beast), Druid of the Saber (for more beast options), Jeweled Scarabs (I ran one for curve smoothing, but while it can find you a nice card, it's not a great T2 play), Novice Engineer (for draw?), River Croc (2/3 can arguable survive more than all the 2 health minions in this deck), Sunfury Protector (to taunt up with a body)

Possible 3-drops: Another Roar, Acolyte of Pain (for draw?), Emperor Cobra (for removal), Ironfur Grizzly, Jungle Panther, Razorfen Hunter (comes with a beast pet)

Any advice is appreciated.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on March 08, 2016, 10:52:32 am
Do you find Knight of the Wild that useful? I tried a Beast Druid deck and thought they were the biggest liability because I could never get them out very early.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on March 08, 2016, 11:59:08 am
Also note that Druid of the Fang will not be in Standard mode because it's  a part of GvG. There may be some new beast synergy cards in the new expansion, I'm sure there will be, but you should keep in mind that you're losing one of the big draws to Beast Druid, the 5 mana 7/7.

Personally I'd leave out Force/Savage just because Beast Druid doesn't win on combos. I think it wins basically on being able to get big minions out fast due to beast synergies. That's not strong in this meta, but possibly in Standard with new beast synergies it could work. Basically beasts innervate out more beasts.

EDIT: Maybe put in Defender of Argus or Sunfury Protector. So you can taunt up the DotF and Knight of the Wild.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on March 08, 2016, 12:10:56 pm
I also think you're going to have trouble when you run out of cards there's almost no card draw and Innervate is kindof like anti-card draw. I think you could use either Azure Drakes or Ancients of Lore to help this deck out.

I think Power of the Wild might be better than Dire Wolves also, when you want to buff your cards it does it better and when you just want to play a 2 drop minion onto an empty board it does that better too.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on March 08, 2016, 12:21:12 pm
Also, King Mukla I feel is more of an aggro card. Get a big body and your opponent can't afford the mana to use bananas by the time you get more value from Mukla. In a slow deck I think it's not as good.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on March 08, 2016, 12:50:08 pm
I find Knight pretty strong...it has the same as issue as Eadric in that in needs to be in your hand early to start costing less, but I've generally been playing it as a 3 or 4 mana 6/6.

Good point of PotW.

I wasn't originally running the combo, but it still works occasionally.

I like Mukla because I'm trying to play it fast.  Late game it's a dead card.

And I forgot I'd be losing Fang.  We will see if anything can replace it.  Malorne is a beast, but blech.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on March 08, 2016, 03:37:07 pm
And I forgot I'd be losing Fang.  We will see if anything can replace it.  Malorne is a beast, but blech.

I got as far as making and testing a Standard-legal Beast combo list before realising that with no Druid of the Fang the beast synergy becomes essentially invisible, and you have no upside over a standard Midrange list.

To the previous suggestions I'll add that you should consider running both Savage Roars, even if you don't want the second full combo.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on March 08, 2016, 03:48:15 pm
http://blizz.ly/RECIPES

Sounds pretty great for new players.
Hopefully it actually suggests like Loot Hoarder as Thalnos replacement and not Amani.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on March 08, 2016, 04:17:10 pm
http://blizz.ly/RECIPES

Sounds pretty great for new players.
Hopefully it actually suggests like Loot Hoarder as Thalnos replacement and not Amani.

Heh, it could almost get away with suggesting the Haunted Creeper staple if hypothetically Creeper was Standard legal. I should at least offer like Kobold or some other draw or spell power card/minion.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on March 08, 2016, 04:38:16 pm
http://blizz.ly/RECIPES

Sounds pretty great for new players.
Hopefully it actually suggests like Loot Hoarder as Thalnos replacement and not Amani.

Heh, it could almost get away with suggesting the Haunted Creeper staple if hypothetically Creeper was Standard legal. I should at least offer like Kobold or some other draw or spell power card/minion.

Or even always suggest Earthen Ring Farseer as a sub for absolutely any card in Rogue, which is a very good approximation of what top Rogue players will do when asked.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on March 10, 2016, 10:47:52 am
(Disguised Toast Next Expansion Speculation Video)

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-03-10-hearthstone-whispers-of-the-old-gods-leaked-by-a-painting-on-a-wall (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-03-10-hearthstone-whispers-of-the-old-gods-leaked-by-a-painting-on-a-wall)

They totally called it.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on March 11, 2016, 05:23:12 am
http://blizz.ly/RECIPES

Sounds pretty great for new players.
Hopefully it actually suggests like Loot Hoarder as Thalnos replacement and not Amani.
I actually think it's OK for it not to be 100% fine tuned. For a new player the difference is probably not going to be noticeable among the inevitable misplays. And it gives them something to learn.

When they realise: "this card doesn't work, whuchoo talkin bout blizzard? This card instead." Then there's a feeling of development which is great for new players.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on March 11, 2016, 12:27:02 pm
Stream starts in half an hour: https://www.twitch.tv/playhearthstone
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Watno on March 11, 2016, 01:09:14 pm
Lagging so hard...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Watno on March 11, 2016, 01:12:10 pm
First minion: Corrupted Hoarder 4 mana 4/2, Deathrattle: Draw a card. Not sure if serious.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on March 11, 2016, 01:32:01 pm
First minion: Corrupted Hoarder 4 mana 4/2, Deathrattle: Draw a card. Not sure if serious.

Corrupted Dragonhawk
3 mana 3/2
Windfury

Corrupted Squire
3 mana 3/2
Divine Shield

Corrupted Engineer
4 mana 3/2
Battlecry: Draw a card

Corrupted Wolf Alpha
4 mana 4/3
Minions on each side of this Minion have +1 attack
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on March 11, 2016, 01:47:46 pm
Polygon has C'thun and a few of his support cards.

We all get C'thun for free.

http://www.polygon.com/features/2016/3/11/11200586/whispers-of-the-old-gods-hearthstone-expansion-everything-we-know-new-cards-reveal
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on March 11, 2016, 02:12:22 pm
First minion: Corrupted Hoarder 4 mana 4/2, Deathrattle: Draw a card. Not sure if serious.

Corrupted Dragonhawk
3 mana 3/2
Windfury

Corrupted Squire
3 mana 3/2
Divine Shield

Corrupted Engineer
4 mana 3/2
Battlecry: Draw a card

Corrupted Wolf Alpha
4 mana 4/3
Minions on each side of this Minion have +1 attack

Are these real? I don't see them mentioned anywhere. (Except the Hoarder which appears to be real).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on March 11, 2016, 02:17:21 pm
First minion: Corrupted Hoarder 4 mana 4/2, Deathrattle: Draw a card. Not sure if serious.

Corrupted Dragonhawk
3 mana 3/2
Windfury

Corrupted Squire
3 mana 3/2
Divine Shield

Corrupted Engineer
4 mana 3/2
Battlecry: Draw a card

Corrupted Wolf Alpha
4 mana 4/3
Minions on each side of this Minion have +1 attack

Are these real? I don't see them mentioned anywhere. (Except the Hoarder which appears to be real).

No they aren't real as far as I know. Sorry for the confusion. I should have added a  :P at the end maybe.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on March 11, 2016, 02:19:36 pm
Polygon has C'thun and a few of his support cards.

We all get C'thun for free.

http://www.polygon.com/features/2016/3/11/11200586/whispers-of-the-old-gods-hearthstone-expansion-everything-we-know-new-cards-reveal
Man, Stealthed Bronzebeard into C'Thun could be a crazy new combo for Rogue.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on April 04, 2016, 12:12:09 pm
I feel the urge to writeup this deck I've been playing as I think it's about to get nerfed when Whispers comes out. Not sure if it'll be playable even in Wild once Force/Savage and maybe BGH are nerfed.

Silent Shout
Druid
2 x Zombie Chow
1 x Ironbeak
2 x Sunfury Protector
2 x Ancient Watcher
2 x Wrath
2 x Deathlord OR Ogre Brute (depends on meta)
1 x BGH
2 x Savage Roar
2 x Wailing Soul
2 x Defender of Argus
2 x Eerie Statue
2 x Swipe
2 x Keeper of the Grove
2 x Fel Reaver
1 x Force of Nature
2 x Ancient of Lore
1 x Dr. Boom

So this deck works like old school Ancient Watcher decks except with the new toys provided by Naxx, GvG and LoE. It's a mid game tempo deck that peaks around turns 4-5 and then tries to close out the game based on a strong board activation with Wailing Soul. There's basically three classes of cards in this deck, cards with great stats for their curve that are in to be silenced (Chow, Ancient Watcher, Deathlord/Ogre Brute, Eerie Statue, Fel Reaver), cards that activate them (Sunfury Protector, Defender of Argus, Keeper of the Grove, Owl and the ultimate activator Wailing Soul) and cards that are just generally great in the Druids kit that don't get hurt much by being silenced (everything else including the FoN/Savage combo).

In the early game, you're trying to get your activatable cards down. Ideal plays on curve are things like turn 1 Chow, turn 2 Watcher/Wrath, turn 3 Deathlord/Brute/Coin + Statue/Coin + Keeper on your Watcher, turn 4 Wailing Soul/Keeper to activate your board, turn 5 Fel Reaver.

If you are playing against Aggro you might want to get a taunt down to slow them down. Try and play the cards that grant taunt AFTER you've silenced activatable minions to protect yourself from Aggro decks while you can still attack with your minions that can't attack until they've been silenced (Watcher/Statue). You basically want to get an Eerie Statue or Fel Reaver to swing at the face a couple times and then finish your opponent off with a Savage Roar. Ancient of Lore, Force and Boom are backup plans in case they manage to deal with your impressive board through some sort of big removal (Equality, Brawl, BGH, Execute, SW:D, Sap are your biggest concerns so try to keep track of how many have been played).

You tend to have more silence than you need to activate your own minions so you get to use some of it on particularly irritating enemy cards like Sylvanas, Eggs, buffed minions and Sludge Belchers.

You want to swing face with your larger minions (Statues and Reavers) and use the smaller bodies and Druid spells to clear the path for them. Don't be afraid to play a Reaver when you can't silence it especially if you already have good board presence, a tempo advantage or if you have a Savage Roar in hand.

You have the potential to win before turn 7 with this deck if you draw well, but if it goes that long you usually just want to focus on building up your board and finishing them off with the combo.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on April 04, 2016, 12:49:17 pm
There is a chance that Keeper of the Grove's Silence effect will be changed too.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on April 04, 2016, 02:11:24 pm
There is a chance that Keeper of the Grove's Silence effect will be changed too.

 :'( I'll miss playing this deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on April 20, 2016, 03:40:20 pm
There is a chance that Keeper of the Grove's Silence effect will be changed too.

 :'( I'll miss playing this deck.

Hey what do you know, Keeper of the Grove can still silence cards post nerf, and for the same mana cost even.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on April 20, 2016, 11:10:38 pm
Yeah, actually they nerfed everything BUT Silence Druid.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on April 21, 2016, 05:47:00 am
There is a chance that Keeper of the Grove's Silence effect will be changed too.

 :'( I'll miss playing this deck.

Hey what do you know, Keeper of the Grove can still silence cards post nerf, and for the same mana cost even.
Are you ever actually going to want it for its silence effect now though?  Over owl?  A 1-mana price bump for one extra stat (losing Beast tag as well, fwiw)?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on April 21, 2016, 06:48:52 am
There is a chance that Keeper of the Grove's Silence effect will be changed too.

 :'( I'll miss playing this deck.

Hey what do you know, Keeper of the Grove can still silence cards post nerf, and for the same mana cost even.
Are you ever actually going to want it for its silence effect now though?  Over owl?  A 1-mana price bump for one extra stat (losing Beast tag as well, fwiw)?

Deal 2 Damage is still an option, and it's the flexibility that you want.

I think 4 mana 2/2 with Silence OR 2 Damage is better than 3 mana 2/1 with Silence and Beast tag for most Druid builds.

I think the better comparison is Spellbreaker -- same mana cost, 4/3 + silence.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on April 21, 2016, 07:04:00 am
There is a chance that Keeper of the Grove's Silence effect will be changed too.

 :'( I'll miss playing this deck.

Hey what do you know, Keeper of the Grove can still silence cards post nerf, and for the same mana cost even.
Are you ever actually going to want it for its silence effect now though?  Over owl?  A 1-mana price bump for one extra stat (losing Beast tag as well, fwiw)?

Deal 2 Damage is still an option, and it's the flexibility that you want.

I think 4 mana 2/2 with Silence OR 2 Damage is better than 3 mana 2/1 with Silence and Beast tag for most Druid builds.

I think the better comparison is Spellbreaker -- same mana cost, 4/3 + silence.
Right right but the point under discussion is Silence Druid.  Not exactly the normal case.  I agree it's still better than Owl in most decks, but I think that's much less clear in the case of a deck that's built entirely around silence.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on April 21, 2016, 10:24:16 am
There is a chance that Keeper of the Grove's Silence effect will be changed too.

 :'( I'll miss playing this deck.

Hey what do you know, Keeper of the Grove can still silence cards post nerf, and for the same mana cost even.
Are you ever actually going to want it for its silence effect now though?  Over owl?  A 1-mana price bump for one extra stat (losing Beast tag as well, fwiw)?

Deal 2 Damage is still an option, and it's the flexibility that you want.

I think 4 mana 2/2 with Silence OR 2 Damage is better than 3 mana 2/1 with Silence and Beast tag for most Druid builds.

I think the better comparison is Spellbreaker -- same mana cost, 4/3 + silence.
Right right but the point under discussion is Silence Druid.  Not exactly the normal case.  I agree it's still better than Owl in most decks, but I think that's much less clear in the case of a deck that's built entirely around silence.

Indeed. It's important to be able to silence a Turn 2 Ancient Watcher with a Turn 3 Ironbeak, though the poor stats of Ironbeak really offsets the big stats of Ancient Watcher.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on April 21, 2016, 01:23:53 pm
Honestly, Spellbreaker might just be a better option now. I'm certainly going to try it once things are changed.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on April 21, 2016, 01:44:50 pm
I think Spellbreaker is a better option for pretty much all the decks. Keeper of the Grove was so good because a 2/4+deal 2 damage is pretty much what you expect to get for 4 mana in terms of value while also being decent enough for tempo (you can still trade favorably with whatever your opponent played on his previous turns), and you got the added versatility of the silence effect which was useful a significant amount of time. Now, Keeper of the Grove lets you choose between two effects that are pretty much what you expect to get for 3 mana, both of which would be pretty crappy for tempo at $3 (a 2/2 body on turn 3 trades unfavorably with everything, including stuff that your opponent played on turn 2), and it still costs $4. Spellbreaker can't deal damage, but a 4/3 is at least a relevant, although not amazing, body at any stage during the game.

Probably Druids can just do without a silence effect more often, though.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on April 21, 2016, 07:53:33 pm
Where can we see all the changes made to classic & basic cards?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on April 21, 2016, 07:59:26 pm
Where can we see all the changes made to classic & basic cards?

Here is the blog post outlining all the changes:

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/20097355/ (http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/20097355/)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on April 21, 2016, 08:24:30 pm
The saddest change is Ironbeak Owl.  :(
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on April 22, 2016, 01:49:19 am
I expected owl to get Warsong'd, so that only silence is Spellbreker, so this is actually less harsh than I expected.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on April 25, 2016, 06:52:44 pm
I've never had so much dust before.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on April 25, 2016, 07:51:55 pm
I only had three of the cards that were changed (Knife Juggler, Ironbeak, and Leper Gnome), and only one I was willing to part with (a second copy of Ironbeak -the other two I already only have one each and want to keep them). Unfortunately, I haven't found a spellbreaker yet.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on April 25, 2016, 08:38:20 pm
I had just opened a Golden Keeper of the Grove. #FeelsGoodMan
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 28, 2016, 06:56:00 pm
I only had three of the cards that were changed (Knife Juggler, Ironbeak, and Leper Gnome), and only one I was willing to part with (a second copy of Ironbeak -the other two I already only have one each and want to keep them). Unfortunately, I haven't found a spellbreaker yet.

Unless you're actively using them in a deck, there's no reason not to disenchant nerfed cards -- if you need them again, you can recraft them at no loss, and you might open new copies from packs before that happens.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on April 30, 2016, 01:54:21 am
Zoolock is insane. I'm running a list similar to the one Kripp showed in a video. The tempo sea giants, Volcanic drake and constant minion spam mean that without AoE, which a lot of decks don't run too much of, you win so fast its crazy.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on April 30, 2016, 03:17:36 am
Yup, haven't really played Zoolock but judging from playing against it, it looks pretty damn good (even tho I still haven't lost to it, I think. Maybe once). I do not know if it plays Doomguard or +4+4 buff, but it does seem to lack a bit of burst tho.

Cthun decks all look like crap to me OTOH. You play River Crocs, Spider Tanks and Yetis and.. a giant bomb to finish it off? Wow, so not impressed.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on April 30, 2016, 03:36:01 am
Zoolock doesn't really need all that much burst. It's not a face deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on April 30, 2016, 04:58:47 am
True, but from what I've seen, this new incarnation has some issues closing out games.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on April 30, 2016, 05:41:10 am
Zoolock is insane. I'm running a list similar to the one Kripp showed in a video. The tempo sea giants, Volcanic drake and constant minion spam mean that without AoE, which a lot of decks don't run too much of, you win so fast its crazy.

Video link?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on April 30, 2016, 05:43:54 am
Cthun decks all look like crap to me OTOH. You play River Crocs, Spider Tanks and Yetis and.. a giant bomb to finish it off? Wow, so not impressed.

I suspect some classes have it better than others with respect to C'thun.  Druid and Priest have insane C'Thun synergy, while Paladin and Shaman have nothing.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on April 30, 2016, 05:46:36 am
Zoolock is insane. I'm running a list similar to the one Kripp showed in a video. The tempo sea giants, Volcanic drake and constant minion spam mean that without AoE, which a lot of decks don't run too much of, you win so fast its crazy.

Video link?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wKTkGYaY68
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on April 30, 2016, 05:50:21 am
Cthun decks all look like crap to me OTOH. You play River Crocs, Spider Tanks and Yetis and.. a giant bomb to finish it off? Wow, so not impressed.

I suspect some classes have it better than others with respect to C'thun.  Druid and Priest have insane C'Thun synergy, while Paladin and Shaman have nothing.

I am talking about Druid and Priest and Warriors, as those are classes that run it. Still pretty much horrible IMHO. I don't really see "insane synergy", I see vanilla drops and a bomb that is less impressive as it often struggles to finish off opponent.

Here is Kripp's video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wKTkGYaY68
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on April 30, 2016, 06:10:12 am
Ah, I think I faced something similar to this the other day.  Brann + Reliquary Seeker was... impressive.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on April 30, 2016, 09:19:25 am
Ah, I think I faced something similar to this the other day.  Brann + Reliquary Seeker was... impressive.

Oh yeah I've pulled that off before Standard hit. Reliquary Seeker is a good example of why Dark Peddler is so good.

Also man Gormok is having a field day with Forbidden Ritual (the tentacle spam card). I immediately recognized the potential of Darkshire Councilman and Implosion 2.0. The Zoolock decks I've seen so far have been formidable. I don't know if they all run Doomguard, but they usually run Power Overwhelming.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on April 30, 2016, 11:50:04 am
Ah, I think I faced something similar to this the other day.  Brann + Reliquary Seeker was... impressive.

Oh yeah I've pulled that off before Standard hit. Reliquary Seeker is a good example of why Dark Peddler is so good.

Also man Gormok is having a field day with Forbidden Ritual (the tentacle spam card). I immediately recognized the potential of Darkshire Councilman and Implosion 2.0. The Zoolock decks I've seen so far have been formidable. I don't know if they all run Doomguard, but they usually run Power Overwhelming.

I have Brann in the deck, but have not been impressed to be honest. He hasn't really hit any important battlecries. I do run 2 sea giants, 1 volcanic drake, 1 cult master, 2 knife juggler. You lose to AoE, but many times you just spam more minions so fast that they need a second clear very soon, and if you have board, you get to play your big minions or make crazy tempo turns with Drake and Forbidden Ritual.
I also don't have Gormok, but might craft him for the deck.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Awaclus on April 30, 2016, 11:59:13 am
Gormok is unreal. You just pretty much win if you can play him.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on April 30, 2016, 02:46:38 pm
Well, I've now gone 0-4 with that Zoo deck.  It just dies to aggro so hard.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on April 30, 2016, 03:03:01 pm
Well, I've now gone 0-4 with that Zoo deck.  It just dies to aggro so hard.
After plummeting to rank 14 using a bunch of experimental decks I then climbed back up to 9 in an uninterrupted streak with that list.  But people are teching against it now I think.  Struggling a lot more.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on April 30, 2016, 03:20:10 pm
Well, I've now gone 0-4 with that Zoo deck.  It just dies to aggro so hard.
After plummeting to rank 14 using a bunch of experimental decks I then climbed back up to 9 in an uninterrupted streak with that list.  But people are teching against it now I think.  Struggling a lot more.

Well, I immediately got a couple wins after posting that.

Nonetheless, I can't help wondering if part of the issue is that the meta at rank 10 is different from the meta where I am at 18/19.

Edit:  Also, I think now everyone knows about COuncilman.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on April 30, 2016, 05:22:27 pm
I love it when Counterspell triggers on Map to the Golden Monkey.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on April 30, 2016, 05:32:58 pm
I've played a little bit of Zoo with success, but I don't particularly like Kripp's list.  Mortal Coil and Cult Master don't fit, as you're not short of ways to push damage or card draw.  Volcanic Drake dies much too easily, and Sea Giant is already taking advantage of cases when you have a large board.  I don't like Horserider either, and am not sure about the Egg.

I've had a lot of success with Tempo Mage.  I'm playing this (http://i.imgur.com/oONX8r2.png) minus one MC for Sylvanas, and with Arcane Explosion on a stick in place of Forbidden Flame because I don't have it, though I'm not happy with that sub.  Faceless Summoner is amazing, and MC is surprisingly good, although it might not be in the best version of the list.  The 3/2 with spell damage makes Arcane Blast incredibly consistent.

I put N'Zoth in a wild Secret Paladin and never played him in about 10 games. :(
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Grujah on April 30, 2016, 07:25:17 pm
I am running:
Ramp Druid
Never More High (Token Druid)
Malygos Rogue
Yagg Rogue (which is Malygos rogue, but with Yagg instead, everything else is the same).

Yagg is.. interesting, to say at least. You don't have to save spells to make use of him like with Maly, but sometimes he'll summon 6 animal companions and sometimes he'll just sheep himself and fizzle on almost everyhing else. He usually does some face damage tho.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on May 01, 2016, 04:55:07 am
I played the Tempo Mage yesterday against a streamer (https://www.twitch.tv/falconepunch55/v/63727502?t=02h53m55s) yesterday and learnt something about Yogg, which I'll spoilerify for the unlikely event you want to watch it.  If Sylvanas steals Yogg then he starts casting spells for the opponent!
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: werothegreat on May 03, 2016, 03:12:03 pm
Why is everyone running Flame Juggler all of a sudden?  Did I miss a memo somewhere?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on May 03, 2016, 10:19:00 pm
Why is everyone running Flame Juggler all of a sudden?  Did I miss a memo somewhere?

What else you going to run for 2 mana?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on May 03, 2016, 10:32:54 pm
Why is everyone running Flame Juggler all of a sudden?  Did I miss a memo somewhere?

What else you going to run for 2 mana?

It's a solid enough pick for any deck that hopes to snowball early on and doesn't have better class-specific options. If it wasn't for Museum Curator I wouldn't be surprised to see Control Priest run it.

I think it was already seeing some use before WotOG, but I could be wrong there.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on May 04, 2016, 03:58:09 am
Why is everyone running Flame Juggler all of a sudden?  Did I miss a memo somewhere?

Flame Juggler first appeared in Aggro Shaman after LoE came out.  Shaman has less burn than Hunter, so Aggro Shaman needs to keep the board longer than Face Hunter and the higher health Flame Jugger is better than Knife Juggler for that plan.  It turns out that Flame Juggler is actually just good, so it's become a reasonable choice of 2-drop for a lot of decks (against a very weak field).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on May 04, 2016, 04:04:50 am
Why is everyone running Flame Juggler all of a sudden?  Did I miss a memo somewhere?

Flame Juggler first appeared in Aggro Shaman after LoE came out.  Shaman has less burn than Hunter, so Aggro Shaman needs to keep the board longer than Face Hunter and the higher health Flame Jugger is better than Knife Juggler for that plan.  It turns out that Flame Juggler is actually just good, so it's become a reasonable choice of 2-drop for a lot of decks (against a very weak field).
Flame Juggler is so painful sometimes.  It sucks that you can occasionally just win on the back of a turn 1/2 coinflip.  This is usually only going to happen in Arena, but it does happen in constructed occasionally.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: nkirbit on May 16, 2016, 08:48:55 pm
I've been having lots of success with Dog's druid list.  It looks (and is) about the greediest deck possible, but I've done reasonably well in every matchup other than miracle.. and that may just be me not playing well, I'm not sure.

http://imgur.com/SGAXetW ,   plus a Ysera, Y'shaarj, and Yogg-Saron that didn't fit into the picture.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Twistedarcher on May 16, 2016, 09:08:48 pm
I've been having lots of success with Dog's druid list.  It looks (and is) about the greediest deck possible, but I've done reasonably well in every matchup other than miracle.. and that may just be me not playing well, I'm not sure.

http://imgur.com/SGAXetW ,   plus a Ysera, Y'shaarj, and Yogg-Saron that didn't fit into the picture.

He's being modest -- he hit top 50 legendary with this deck! You guys should try it out if you want to climb and have the cards.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on May 17, 2016, 02:11:13 am
I've been having lots of success with Dog's druid list.  It looks (and is) about the greediest deck possible, but I've done reasonably well in every matchup other than miracle.. and that may just be me not playing well, I'm not sure.

http://imgur.com/SGAXetW ,   plus a Ysera, Y'shaarj, and Yogg-Saron that didn't fit into the picture.

He's being modest -- he hit top 50 legendary with this deck! You guys should try it out if you want to climb and have the cards.

Man, I only need to craft like 5 legendaries...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on May 17, 2016, 02:50:53 am
I've been having lots of success with Dog's druid list.  It looks (and is) about the greediest deck possible, but I've done reasonably well in every matchup other than miracle.. and that may just be me not playing well, I'm not sure.

http://imgur.com/SGAXetW ,   plus a Ysera, Y'shaarj, and Yogg-Saron that didn't fit into the picture.

He's being modest -- he hit top 50 legendary with this deck! You guys should try it out if you want to climb and have the cards.

Man, I only need to craft like 5 legendaries...

I need 2. Is it a fun deck to play? Ysharj seems like an odd pick for a deck with so many battlecries.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: nkirbit on May 17, 2016, 03:02:48 am
I'm having a lot of fun. It's kind of weird.. Even though the deck seems like it's just "ramp and play big minions", there are tons of decisions about spending your mama every turn. Innervate is hard to use and still something I'm working on figuring out.

Y'shaarj is a little weird in that missing battlecries does suck, but you're still getting a 5/5 body or bigger most of the time. It's probably the best threat against warrior, and there are tons of warriors running around, many of which are the tempo deck that doesn't run brawl.  Sticking y,shaarj on any stable board all but wins the game.

You can probably swap in other stuff for the legendaries you don't have. Cards like nefarian, sylvanas, geddon and other big legends are all reasonable, as are stuff like second arakkoa or sunwalker. The threats are interchangeable.. It's the ramp that's the most important part to have. 
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on May 17, 2016, 01:02:30 pm
I've been having lots of success with Dog's druid list.  It looks (and is) about the greediest deck possible, but I've done reasonably well in every matchup other than miracle.. and that may just be me not playing well, I'm not sure.

http://imgur.com/SGAXetW ,   plus a Ysera, Y'shaarj, and Yogg-Saron that didn't fit into the picture.

He's being modest -- he hit top 50 legendary with this deck! You guys should try it out if you want to climb and have the cards.

I remember being online to see the notification that he got Legend.

I don't have Fandral or Y'Shaarj. I feel that holds me back from making this kind of deck. I do have Deathwing: Dragonlord for whatever that's worth. I don't have Ancient or War either, but I can maybe sub in Bog Creeper there (7 mana 6/8 taunt).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on May 17, 2016, 03:51:23 pm
So Zoo seems to be strong...I've been playing this, which I modified from a few netdecks...

Forbidden Ritual x2
Mortal Coil x2
Power Overwhelming x2
Abusive Sergeant x2
Possessed Villager x2
Reliquary Seeker x2
Voidwalker
Bilefin Tidehunter x2
Dark Peddler x2
Dire Wolf Alpha x2
Knife Juggler x2
Darkshire Councilman x2
Imp Gang Boss x2
Gormok the Impaler
Volcanic Drake x2
Sea Giant x2
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: nkirbit on May 17, 2016, 05:10:29 pm
That list looks pretty good.  It's super all-in on tokens and probably weak to the warrior whirlwind decks, but I'm not convinced there's a way to make that match-up any good.  Ravaging ghoul and Fiery War Axe are just so good against zoo.

Do you have problems finding plays on turn 1?  There are only 3 minions you actively want to play on turn 1 in that list.  In my latest zoo list, I have 1 flame imp, 2 villagers, 2 voidwalkers, and 2 argent squires.  I'd be worried about having to forbidden ritual or reliquary seeker turn 1 and just not having a powerful enough start to outpace a decent shaman start.  Maybe the explosiveness of Drake is enough to overcome that.. it's not a card I've played with at all.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on May 17, 2016, 05:16:39 pm
I feel like Reliquary seeker is best used as a Discover option from Dark Peddler.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on May 17, 2016, 05:25:48 pm
I feel like Reliquary seeker is best used as a Discover option from Dark Peddler.

Having played a bunch of zoo, it's really consistent in this type of all in token deck. Almost every game you can get it to be a 5/5 and be impactful.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on May 17, 2016, 05:39:35 pm
That list looks pretty good.  It's super all-in on tokens and probably weak to the warrior whirlwind decks, but I'm not convinced there's a way to make that match-up any good.  Ravaging ghoul and Fiery War Axe are just so good against zoo.

Do you have problems finding plays on turn 1?  There are only 3 minions you actively want to play on turn 1 in that list.  In my latest zoo list, I have 1 flame imp, 2 villagers, 2 voidwalkers, and 2 argent squires.  I'd be worried about having to forbidden ritual or reliquary seeker turn 1 and just not having a powerful enough start to outpace a decent shaman start.  Maybe the explosiveness of Drake is enough to overcome that.. it's not a card I've played with at all.

I mulligan for Villagers, but if I don't get them, I can usually make up for it with so many strong T2 plays.  Bilefin is surprisingly great.  I never play Ritual for less than 3 mana and never play Seeker unless it comes out as a 5/5 (edge cases like Gormok exist).

Peddler, Bilefin work great on T2 to make up for the lost T1.  I'm finding most decks aren't playing a minion on T1 anyway except Shaman Trolls, Priest Clerics, and the stupid spell mages with Wyrms and Mirror Taunts.

I lost to the spell mage who does all the arcane missiles/flame waker shots after a good ten wins in a row.  The race with Fiery Bat hunters is exciting, and I'm winning more than I'm losing there.

Haven't seen the Warriors yet, but expect there's no way around the Whirlwind effects.

I know Drakes are super popular, but I find them good, even when played at 3 or 4 mana.  I made a huge comeback when I cleared an opponent's board with my tentacles and got two free Drakes.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on May 17, 2016, 06:39:23 pm
I've never understood Mortal Coil in Zoo.  Is the idea that it's a 1 mana cantrip ping that you can use like Abusive to clear opposing minions, and that you can afford the 1 mana as the rest of your deck is so cheap?  Does it not get stuck in hand when drawn early?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: nkirbit on May 17, 2016, 06:50:22 pm
I just played about a dozen games with the deck.  Reliquary seekers were okay.. I activated them quite a few times, but I sort of felt like those games were over.  It was nice against mage to be able to dump my hand and still have a minion live through flamestrike.  They also sat in my hand doing nothing quite a few times.

I still get the feeling that the deck has a few too many conditional cards.. I spent a bunch of games staring at a hand of sea giant, volcanic drake, mortal coil, and reliquary seeker or other hands like those.  I think 2 mortal coils is just too many.. They're fine if a bunch of trades are happening, but I think the deck is pretty well set up to deal with those situations already.  I think I'd rather have more cards to play. 
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on May 17, 2016, 11:05:44 pm
I think in my zoo I only run 1 volcanic drake, and only 1 coil, 2 flame imps, 2 villagers.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on May 17, 2016, 11:33:54 pm
I've never understood Mortal Coil in Zoo.  Is the idea that it's a 1 mana cantrip ping that you can use like Abusive to clear opposing minions, and that you can afford the 1 mana as the rest of your deck is so cheap?  Does it not get stuck in hand when drawn early?

I think it usually finds a use that draws you a card. In matchups like Hunter, Warlock or Paladin it's pretty much 100% going to draw you a card. I've never had too much trouble getting the card off of the Coil even against other classes though either when they leave something at one health just to see if they can punish you for not having a ping or by using it as the last damage to kill something when combined with a minion on the board. Sometimes you're desperate and need to ping your own 1/1 to draw into something without dropping your life total. Plus obviously the ping can be used to remove things like Divine Shields. It's a pretty versatile card.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ashersky on May 18, 2016, 01:28:56 am
Jorbles is right about Coil.  I guess I'm so used to needing draw in non-warlock decks that it feels comfortable having a semi-Wrath in the deck.

As for the conditional cards, the way I play the deck is to always be working toward meeting them.  If I can't, I might lose, but if I do, I basically always win.

I'm looking at trying Spawn of N'Zoth in the deck, as having a quasi-Power of the Wild to buff tokens could be huge.  Not sure what to cut to add three drops though...
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on May 18, 2016, 07:38:17 am
Sometimes you're desperate and need to ping your own 1/1 to draw into something without dropping your life total.

I haven't tried Mortal Coil in Zoo, so I am speaking from inexperience, but this is the situation that worries me: pinging one of your own tokens is a terrible outcome.  I'm not sure the situations where Coil is better overall make up for not playing something like Argent Squire instead.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on May 18, 2016, 09:57:52 am
Sometimes you're desperate and need to ping your own 1/1 to draw into something without dropping your life total.

I haven't tried Mortal Coil in Zoo, so I am speaking from inexperience, but this is the situation that worries me: pinging one of your own tokens is a terrible outcome.  I'm not sure the situations where Coil is better overall make up for not playing something like Argent Squire instead.

I mean yes it is terrible, but at least it gives you that option. Sometimes when you can't draw a card you just have to resign.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on May 21, 2016, 12:48:32 pm
I finally got to Rank 5 yesterday with Dragon Priest. I didn't realise how aggro heavy the Standard meta actually is until I started pushing through it with Dragon Priest. I was running one of the more greedy variants that tops its curve at Deathwing: Dragonlord and N'Zoth. Having the option to resurrect Chillmaw with N'Zoth is quite handy sometimes.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Kirian on May 21, 2016, 02:48:12 pm
So... is there a must-craft Legendary in this set?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: qmech on May 21, 2016, 03:29:33 pm
So... is there a must-craft Legendary in this set?

There isn't a Dr. Boom that is strong enough to see play in almost every deck.  The legendaries in Old Gods are good in individual lists, but can't just be thrown into decks at random.  I've not played with any new legendaries yet, as there's plenty for me to play before I feel the need to start crafting.  I can particularly recommend Lifecoach's Midrange Dragon Warrior and MrYagut's Doomsayer Midrange Hunter (which has no legendaries at all).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Titandrake on May 21, 2016, 08:53:10 pm
So... is there a must-craft Legendary in this set?

The closest thing to a must-craft I've seen is N'Zoth, as a finisher across several classes. Although, to get full value you may need to have other legendaries like Tirion, Sylvanas, or Cairne.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on May 21, 2016, 09:02:00 pm
So... is there a must-craft Legendary in this set?

The closest thing to a must-craft I've seen is N'Zoth, as a finisher across several classes. Although, to get full value you may need to have other legendaries like Tirion, Sylvanas, or Cairne.

I agree that N'Zoth seems like the biggest power house of the set, but relies on other good cards to be strong. Otherwise a lot of the cards seem balanced, that fit only certain decks.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on May 21, 2016, 10:41:54 pm
So... is there a must-craft Legendary in this set?

The closest thing to a must-craft I've seen is N'Zoth, as a finisher across several classes. Although, to get full value you may need to have other legendaries like Tirion, Sylvanas, or Cairne.

I agree that N'Zoth seems like the biggest power house of the set, but relies on other good cards to be strong. Otherwise a lot of the cards seem balanced, that fit only certain decks.

Yeah, N'Zoth is the one I'm working towards. I think there's strong obvious decks with him in Rogue and Paladin, and I think Warrior or Hunter could be made to work. (It definitely helps that I already have Sylvanas and Cairne).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on May 22, 2016, 01:19:25 am
So... is there a must-craft Legendary in this set?

The closest thing to a must-craft I've seen is N'Zoth, as a finisher across several classes. Although, to get full value you may need to have other legendaries like Tirion, Sylvanas, or Cairne.

I agree that N'Zoth seems like the biggest power house of the set, but relies on other good cards to be strong. Otherwise a lot of the cards seem balanced, that fit only certain decks.

Yeah, N'Zoth is the one I'm working towards. I think there's strong obvious decks with him in Rogue and Paladin, and I think Warrior or Hunter could be made to work. (It definitely helps that I already have Sylvanas and Cairne).

Priest can make N'Zoth work as well. Priest actually needs very few of its own Deathrattle minions to make N'Zoth work. Shifting shade, Sylvanas, Museum Curator stuff, and maybe Cairne is all you need. Priest can just steal more Deathrattle minions with Entomb and Shifting Shade in the matchups where N'Zoth actually matters i.e. against slower decks. The Dragon Priest deck I was using this season has Chillmaw and Deathwing:DL as extra deathrattles.

Shifting Shade is seriously strong. Bonus if it reveals your opponent's win condition (eg. Leeroy from a Renolock).

Edit: Oh yeah, and Shifting Shade seems pretty serious about his Eternal Eggos.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on May 22, 2016, 11:56:08 am
Yeah, I forgot about Priest. Definitely works in Priest decks as well.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: nkirbit on May 31, 2016, 07:33:42 am
http://i.imgur.com/x9DdcEu.png

I just built this and have been fooling around with it.. any suggestions?  (...other than the obvious one of "Don't play Reno Shaman")
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Haddock on May 31, 2016, 08:04:12 am
http://i.imgur.com/x9DdcEu.png

I just built this and have been fooling around with it.. any suggestions?  (...other than the obvious one of "Don't play Reno Shaman")
Novice Engineer stands out to me as a bit weak I guess, but not sure what you'd put in instead.  Maybe I'd consider Sir Finnley.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on May 31, 2016, 04:45:56 pm
http://i.imgur.com/x9DdcEu.png

I just built this and have been fooling around with it.. any suggestions?  (...other than the obvious one of "Don't play Reno Shaman")

I actually have tried out Reno Shaman a bit and I'd suggest putting in a bit of totem stuff. The 3/4 one, Mana Tide and Tuskar Totemic are all solid on their own. Also since you're playing a reno deck your games might go super long and Thing From Below can be a big tempo swing if you get and get to play it for almost nothing. The 1 mana +1/+1 per totem buff spell is actually pretty good as it can be way better than a banana sometimes (and is rarely worse than a banana). Didn't really think any of the other totem spells/minions were worth it but ymmv.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on June 08, 2016, 03:09:39 am
I have a rogue quest, and apparently I'm utterly terrible with Rogue. I've gone something like 1-14 with this deck. Why is it so bad? (and don't say I need X legendary. Both my decent legendaries are already in this deck.)

Backstab,                    Shadowstep
Deadly Poison,             Southsea Deckhand
Worgen Infiltrator,        Betrayal
Eviserate,                    Sap
Beckoner of Evil,          Dire Wolf Alpha
Lance Carrier,               Twilight Geomancer
Perdition's Blade,         (I'm a) Fan of Knives
Shadow Strike,             Acolyte of Pain
SI:7 Agent,                   Silver Hand Regent
Squirming Tentacle,      Senjin Shieldmaster
Southsea Squidface,      Assassin's Blade
Assassinate,                 Azure Drake
Shado-Pan Rider,          Vanish
Nerubian Prophet,         Reno Jackson
Skeram Cultist,             C'thun

(This is not a C'thun deck. I'm just using him as a minor part of it. Seems like he isn't bad at 8/8, especially when I can Stadowstep him and use his battlecry twice when I get the cards right. Or maybe I'm wrong. Also, Reno seems appropriate for my Rogue because I only have one of some of the best Rogue cards like the SI:7 Agent and Eviserate.)

EDIT: Well just posting that made me think about it some more, and I think I need more big damage minions. So here's my edited version:  (Hey, I took out C'Thun and added a different legendary. It's not a great one, but it looks decent enough here.)

Backstab,                    Shadowstep
Deadly Poison,             Southsea Deckhand
Betrayal,                     Bilefin Tidehunter
Eviserate,                    Sap
Dire Wolf Alpha,           Lance Carrier,               
Twilight Geomancer,     Perdition's Blade,         
(I'm a) Fan of Knives,    Squirming Tentacle
Shadow Strike,             Acolyte of Pain
SI:7 Agent,                  Senjin Shieldmaster
Southsea Squidface,      Silvermoon Guardian
Assassin's Blade,           Pit Fighter
Assassinate,                 Azure Drake
Shado-Pan Rider,          Vanish
Illidan Stormrage,         Reno Jackson
Bog Creeper,                 North Sea Kracken
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on June 08, 2016, 03:48:46 am
A Rogue deck is not my favourite type for a Reno deck. I've had very good luck with something kinda like the Echoes of Death recipe deck Blizzard provides. It works really well if you have Raptors and a bunch of Deathrattles. Though N'zoth is a great addition to it, I don't have him and it seems to work fine enough to win without him.

I think your deck just needs more synergy. It doesn't really have a coherent plan behind it. Either go full C'Thun or full Deathrattle or Miracle-ish or something like that.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on June 08, 2016, 03:59:05 am
I don't have enough C'Thun synergy cards to go full C'thun. I don't really see how deathrattle cards synergize with each other unless you have something like N'zoth. And I don't know what miracle means in this context.
I haven't looked at much deck recipes online because it seems to take away some of the fun if you use a deck that someone else designed. They also usually have cards in them that I don't have yet.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on June 08, 2016, 04:24:15 am
Miracle decks are decks centered around having lots of cheap spells and Gadgetzan Auctioneers to use the spells to draw lots of cards and overwhelm your opponent.

As to Deathrattle cards, they all synergize with Unearthed Raptors and if you have them Shadowcasters. Those are what I use for synergy in my deck.

If you don't have the C'Thun cards, that's okay.

One thing I'd say though is your deck isn't aggressive enough for a Rogue deck. Rogue doesn't want the game to go super long (that's what Reno is for making the game go really long) you want a deck that gets so big a tempo advantage that your opponent can't catch up. This usually means front loading your deck with cheaper cards that do more than one thing and help you take over in the early game (like SI:7 Agents, Loot Horders, Earthen Ring Farseers) and not having too many big cards. My Rogue deck only has 5 cards in it that cost 5 or more mana, and only one of those cards (Sylvanas) costs more than 5. Try making your deck more aggressive, Rogue is an aggressive class and in my experience most of the decks don't have a lot of expensive cards in them.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: ycz6 on June 08, 2016, 06:18:36 pm
I agree that Reno isn't really the best fit for a typical Rogue playstyle, but Rogue has some special synergy with Reno in that it's easy for Rogue to play it multiple times with Shadowstep, so they can get even more value out of the card than a typical class can.

That said, your deck has a couple of cards in it that don't seem to fit very well, even with a limited cardpool.

Silvermoon Guardian is just kind of a terrible card. If your opponent has a ping like Mage or Rogue hero power, it's basically a 4 mana 3/4 at best, and even in other cases it doesn't trade very well on board. The optimal scenario is where you play it into something like a 4/3 on your opponent's side and get a great trade there, but even then if your opponent plays something like a Chillwind Yeti on their turn 4, then they can eat your Silvermoon Guardian pretty much for free. I'd swap it out for something like a Yeti, or since you're Rogue, Tomb Pillager, which is a great card.

Southsea Deckhand is a good card in Rogue, but it really only shines a deck which is aggressive, has attack buffs like Cold Blood, or has a lot of Pirate synergy, and your deck has none of those. Similarly, Lance Carrier and Dire Wolf Alpha are best in a deck where you have lots of small minions which let you set up good trades on the board, which is not the strength of a Reno deck. I think I'd replace those with either drawing cards like Loot Hoarder or Shiv, which will let you search for your removal and Reno, or early game minions which stand better on their own, like Undercity Valiant, Huge Toad, Defias Ringleader, and Buccaneer.

As Legendaries go, Illidan Stormrage is... not the greatest. He's definitely fun to use, and if you like him in your deck then feel free to keep him - he was my first legendary and I used him all the time :P. But honestly, something like Boulderfist Ogre, Shado-pan Rider, or Sunwalker will usually be more playable; 5 health is just so little. If you can afford the dust for a legendary and need something in the 6-drop slot, Sylvanas Windrunner is amazing and has been in very strong decks pretty much all the way since beta, so that's a worthwhile craft.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on June 09, 2016, 12:53:47 am
I don't have Tomb Pillager, Cold Blood, or Huge Toad (and I definitely don't have enough dust to craft a legendary). But thanks for the tips, I'll switch out Southsea Deckhand, Silvermoon Guardian, Lance Carrier, and Dire Wolf Alpha. And I'll probably switch out I.Stormrage after trying him out for a couple games (he was my first random legendary).
I thought Southsea Deckhand would be a good 1 cost in any rogue deck (or any deck with several weapons).
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on June 09, 2016, 12:30:03 pm
I realized I was telling you to take out expensive cards, but not advising what to put in.

These are the cards that cost 4 or less that I like to use in Rogue decks that you might find value out of:

Minions
Bladed Cultist
Abusive Sargent
Southsea Deckhand
Pit Snake
Defias Ringleader
Undercity Huckster
Undercity Valiant
Bloodmage Thalnos
Acidic Swamp Ooze
Flame Juggler
Bloodsail Raider (if and only if your deck has lots of weapons/weapon buffs)
Loot Horder
Huge Toad
Earthen Ring Farseer
SI:7 Agent
Unearthed Raptor (I like this card so much I build decks around it)
Tomb Pillager
Twilight Summoner (but only in a deck with Raptors/Shadowcasters)
Polluted Horder
Southsea Squidface (usually with cards like Blade Flurry)
Dark Iron Dwarf

Spells
Backstab
Preparation (but only with Sprint in my deck)
Shadowstep (with lots of cards with Battlecry usually)
Journey Below
Cold Blood
Deadly Poison
Shadow Strike
Shiv (usually only with cards that buff Spellpower like Thalnos/Azure Drakes)
Sap
Fan of Knives
Burgle
Blade Flurry (but only in decks with Deadly Poisons and other weapon buffs)
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on June 11, 2016, 08:14:07 am
You still think blade flurry is worth a card slot post nerf?
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: markusin on June 11, 2016, 06:51:47 pm
You still think blade flurry is worth a card slot post nerf?

I've actually had success with Corrupted Seer  in Reno Rogue, of all cards. As a Rogue, you might be so desperate for board clear nowadays that a 6 mana Consecration might make the cut when you consider the body that can be a target for Shadowstep and Shadowcaster.

As a rare, it isn't too prohibitive to get.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on June 13, 2016, 04:46:51 am
You still think blade flurry is worth a card slot post nerf?

One is fine with lots of weapon buffs. It certainly sucks compared to what it used to do, but Rogue's board clear is terrible.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: pingpongsam on June 14, 2016, 12:09:57 pm
You still think blade flurry is worth a card slot post nerf?

One is fine with lots of weapon buffs. It certainly sucks compared to what it used to do, but Rogue's board clear is terrible.

Yeah, I often run Geddon although right now I'm giving the Murloc a run. I used to run Vanish but it costs to much to effectively replace your board before they do.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: Jorbles on June 14, 2016, 01:54:46 pm
Vanish I think is only good in Mill oriented decks where you're trying to stall the game out (decks where you might want to bounce cards like Coldlight, Deathlord, Healbot, etc)

I think the only good board clear options we haven't discussed in Rogue are Dark Iron Skulker or Fan of Knives when comboed with Spell Damage.

I think Rogue should probably try to be more reliant on making their opponent need their board clear to stop the Rogue from winning and not count on having to wipe their opponents board. If Rogue has to do a big board clear they're already really behind. There's so many good single target removal spells/effects in Rogue that they shouldn't have to wipe a board very often.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: popsofctown on June 23, 2016, 10:14:14 am
I think playing to make big Yogg Saurons is actually more fun than playing to Hearthstone's wincon.  It's making me like Hearthstone a lot more now.  Hearthstone is also fitting into my life better now that I'm playing an exhausting fighting game since it's the ideal level of brainlessness.
Title: Re: Constructed General Discussion
Post by: KingZog3 on June 23, 2016, 11:50:45 am <