Dominion Strategy Forum

Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: Teproc on March 13, 2014, 07:31:15 am

Title: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Teproc on March 13, 2014, 07:31:15 am
Welcome to NewMafia V : House of Cards

Mod: Teproc

(If you want the spec QT, PM me or /tag in this thread)

This game is a newbie game.  As such, new players will get priority signups, and this game will have a simple setup.

This game should be evenly split between newbies and vets (that is, 4 to 5 newbies and 4 to 5 vets).

A newbie is defined here as someone who has not completed any games on f.ds.  Vets are people who have completed at least three.  If we don't fill up in a reasonable amount of time, we'll change this.  If too many of one group want to play, they will be decided randomly.

The game will be House of Cards themed. However, you do not need to be familiar with the show to play, nothing about it will be spoiled, and flavor will not be related to alignment and roles. Flavor is just that, flavor.

The setup used will be Alternating 9P (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Alternating_9P)

Player list:
1. Nik => Peter Russo, Corrupt Politician (Town Vanilla) => lynched day 2
2. Witherweaver  => Remy Danton, Corrupt Staffer (Town Vanilla) => endgamed
3. Delirious Deleuze => Zoe Barnes, Corrupt Journalist (Town Vanilla) => killed night 1
4. Ichimaru Gin =>  Linda Vasquez, Corrupt Fixer (Town Odd-Night Doctor) => killed night 2
5. A Drowned Kernel =>  Raymond Tusk, Idealist Businessman (Mafia Goon) => won !
6. mcmcsalot =>  Claire Underwood, Corrupt Politician (Town Vanilla) => lynched day 1
7. shraeye =>  Jacqueline Sharpe, Corrupt Whip (Town Even-Night Cop) => lynched day 3
8. faust  => Doug Stamper, Idealist Staffer (Mafia Goon) => won !
9. Voltaire =>  Janine Skorsky, Corrupt Journalist (Town Vanilla) => endgamed

Spectators tagged : Jimmmmm, ashersky, mail-mi, yuma, scott_pilgrim, XerxesPraelor, AndrewisFTTW, 2.71828..., Robz888
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: Teproc on March 13, 2014, 07:31:38 am
Basic Mafia Ruleset

The Golden Rule:

Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun!  Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.

Please read The Civility Pledge (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7695.0) before signing up for any mafia game on this site.  If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play.

Excessive personal attacks or uncivil behavior may be dealt with by modifiers or modkills.


Game Summary:

Mafia is a social deduction game.  There is an "informed minority" (the mafia) and an "uninformed majority" (the town).  The mafia know who each other are, and are trying to be the only people left alive.  The town doesn't know who anybody else is, and are trying to find and lynch all of the mafia.  The mafia, to make sure the town doesn't know who they are, must pretend to be town to win.  The mafia usually can kill at night, to help them in being the only ones left alive.

1. General Gameplay and Etiquette:

1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind.  Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it.  Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
3. If you have a role with a Night action your choices are due to all mods by the posted deadline (generally 48 hours from Night start during the first few Nights; later Nights may have shorter deadlines).  If we do not receive your PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions.  In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used.  If your Night action was mandatory, it will be decided randomly.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage).
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mods know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase.
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 24 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

2. Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:

1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate.  Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until the mods lock the thread; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Day deadlines will be 7 days and night deadlines will be 48 hours. During the night, all players are required to check-in with the mod via PM to confirm that they are still playing.
5. What happens when the deadline is hit and nobody has a majority of votes is up to the mod's discretion. In this game, the game will go into night without a lynch if no majority has been reached.
6. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName.  Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
7. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
8. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
9. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post in the game or in Quicktopics. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
10. If the thread is locked, you may not post.  Threads can be locked for various reasons, but no matter what the reason, you may not post.  The mod may forget to lock the thread, but if they say it is locked, it is still locked.
11. Do not edit or delete posts.  We don't want some players having more information than others.  If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post. Mods will not edit posts for you.

3. Miscellaneous/Mechanics:

1. Bold, colored text is reserved for the Mods.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mods privately.  Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mods may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently.  Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed.  These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued upon request after 24 hours of no activity.  A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement.  A player who has been prodded 2 times is subject to replacement under rule 3.10 without further notice.
6. Please do not discuss ongoing games, it can unintentionally affect the other game.
7. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, which may include modkill(s) if needed.
8. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread.  Treat this game as a commitment.  Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.
9. Players who discover they are too busy to play in a game or want to leave the game for civility issues are not allowed to officially /out in the thread.  A request to /out must only be done via a PM to the moderator.  Please do not use this as a manipulation technique.  (Note players may continue to threaten to /out or imply that they might as long as it does not include an official request).  Requests to /out are final once submitted.  There will be no /outing and then /inning back into the game so make sure that when you /out you have thought it through and really want to do it. Players that can't be replaced will simply be mod-killed.
10. If a player wants to /out, they may be replaced by anyone on D1-N1.  On D2-N2, no one from the speccy may replace the player.  After this, a player who /outs may not be replaced.  It is up to the mod's discretion whether to modkill the player or do something else under these circumstances. In this case, players who /out after Night 2 will be modkilled, even if this ends the game.

Helpful Links:

Wiki Links:


--Main Wiki Page (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)

--Newbie Guide (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Newbie_Guide)

--Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ)

--Commonly Used Abbreviations (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Commonly_used_abbreviations)

--Mafia Theory (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Theory)

Forum Links:

--Vacation/Limited Access announcements (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3621.0)

--Mafia Lingo/Dictionary (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5315.0)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 13, 2014, 07:31:49 am
/tag
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: ashersky on March 13, 2014, 08:56:22 am
/tag
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: shraeye on March 13, 2014, 10:28:40 am
oh, house of cards??!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: Voltaire on March 13, 2014, 11:28:54 am
/in

if I can be one of the vets.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: faust on March 13, 2014, 11:42:43 am
I would play as a vet.

I suggest changing the ratio of vets/newbies though. 3/6 didn't work out very well in NMIV, something like 5/4 might be better.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: Teproc on March 13, 2014, 11:46:33 am
I would play as a vet.

I suggest changing the ratio of vets/newbies though. 3/6 didn't work out very well in NMIV, something like 5/4 might be better.

The problem with that is, I don't want this game to be open for signups for a billion years just so we can have a sufficient amount of newbies. Otherwise the newbies who sign up will have played in other games by then and it just never stops/starts. I mean, I agree that there should be as many newbies as possible, but I'm not sure how that can work in a reasonable timeframe.

How did that "not work" in NMIV ? I didn't read that one.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 13, 2014, 11:51:50 am
Hmm, I think I would like to play in this, but I'm currently in two other games, one or both of which might finish before this starts. Does that disqualify me for newbie status?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: Teproc on March 13, 2014, 11:56:18 am
A newbie is defined here as someone who has not completed any games on f.ds.  Vets are people who have completed at least three. 

Nope, it does not. Honestly I copy/pasted this directly from NMIV, but I do think it makes sense. The awards consider people to be newbies in their first three games I think, so this would be your third (depending on when this starts I suppose).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 13, 2014, 12:02:50 pm
Okay /in as a newbie.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: faust on March 13, 2014, 12:03:15 pm
I would play as a vet.

I suggest changing the ratio of vets/newbies though. 3/6 didn't work out very well in NMIV, something like 5/4 might be better.

The problem with that is, I don't want this game to be open for signups for a billion years just so we can have a sufficient amount of newbies. Otherwise the newbies who sign up will have played in other games by then and it just never stops/starts. I mean, I agree that there should be as many newbies as possible, but I'm not sure how that can work in a reasonable timeframe.

How did that "not work" in NMIV ? I didn't read that one.

Lots of newbies lead to a game where almost everyone was lurking. There were too few people around to push the discussion. And that's not a fun experience for your first mafia game.

Also, do you read me correctly? I'm suggesting less newbies, not more.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: Teproc on March 13, 2014, 12:13:10 pm
Well, this is embarassing. I thought the newbie/vet ratio suggested by NMIV was 6/3, but reversed.

So yeah, I agree with you. I actually think 4/5 and 5/4 are both pretty good. I'll change the OP.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: sudgy on March 13, 2014, 12:28:00 pm
I find it interesting that I could tell that you copied and pasted the opening to NMIV that I wrote...
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: Teproc on March 13, 2014, 12:32:53 pm
I find it interesting that I could tell that you copied and pasted the opening to NMIV that I wrote...

I would find it more interesting if you couldn't.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: Jack Rudd on March 13, 2014, 03:20:02 pm
Will there be special prizes for players who manage to say "You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment." at appropriate points in the game?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: Teproc on March 13, 2014, 03:30:22 pm
Will there be special prizes for players who manage to say "You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment." at appropriate points in the game?

You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.

Seriously though, I should say this will be based on the Netflix version, rather than the original, which I have not (yet) seen. I think that line is said once in the Netflix version as a nod, but that's about it.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: shraeye on March 13, 2014, 03:54:46 pm
I'm catching raerae up on season 1 of the US version, then we'll watch 2, then we'll watch the UK original.

However, we are 'currently' watching so many shows that sometimes plans like these take forever.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: mail-mi on March 13, 2014, 04:03:20 pm
/tag
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: Nik on March 13, 2014, 05:35:00 pm
/In. I'm a newb!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: Teproc on March 13, 2014, 05:37:00 pm
Welcome Nik ! If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: yuma on March 13, 2014, 05:38:27 pm
/tag. Hey guys. I am yuma if you don't know me. Just wanted to let you know that I compile statistics for mafia games--which can be found here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3484.0) and will be including stats from this game as well. The stats are obviously just for fun and some people completely ignore them while others (me basically) obsess over them. Anyways, have fun!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: sudgy on March 13, 2014, 06:08:48 pm
If, for some reason, no other vets want to play, I'll play, but I would rather them play than me.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: shraeye on March 14, 2014, 12:32:28 am
I mean...I'll in as well as a vet.  I LOVE playing with new people!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: scott_pilgrim on March 14, 2014, 12:54:08 am
/tag
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: XerxesPraelor on March 14, 2014, 06:27:01 am
Wow, I'm probably one of very few people who isn't allowed in.

I want the speccy though.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 14, 2014, 10:28:18 am
I'll join up as a vet, I'm a big fan of newbies :)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: Teproc on March 14, 2014, 11:12:56 am
I'll join up as a vet, I'm a big fan of newbies :)

Creepy.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 14, 2014, 11:13:40 am
I'll join up as a vet, I'm a big fan of newbies :)

Creepy.
...big...fan...
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards
Post by: Teproc on March 14, 2014, 11:16:04 am
With that, and since ADK now has a concluded game, we "only" need 3 newbies to be a go.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (3 newbies wanted !)
Post by: AndrewisFTTW on March 19, 2014, 01:48:23 am
/in

This would be game 3 for me so newbie/vet I guess.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (3 newbies wanted !)
Post by: Teproc on March 19, 2014, 08:08:01 am
I would prefer having true newbies in the remaining slots. I'll keep you in mind if we just need one more slot and we aren't finding a fourth newbie.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (3 newbies wanted !)
Post by: AndrewisFTTW on March 19, 2014, 09:29:26 am
Ok cool. I just saw ADK sign up so I figured I could as well.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (3 newbies wanted !)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 19, 2014, 09:51:21 am
I'm in no games, where are the newbies!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (3 newbies wanted !)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 19, 2014, 09:56:38 am
\in

I would count as a newbie
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (3 newbies wanted !)
Post by: Teproc on March 19, 2014, 10:00:46 am
\in

I would count as a newbie

Sweet !

Two newbies to go. If we get stuck at three for a week or so, I will include Andrew and start the game with 3 newbs / 2 newbs/vets (ie ADK and Andrew) / 4 vets, if everyone is fine with that.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (2 newbies wanted !)
Post by: ashersky on March 19, 2014, 09:08:06 pm
How awesome would it be if Donald X. was the final newbie here?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (2 newbies wanted !)
Post by: Teproc on March 19, 2014, 09:09:14 pm
Lol. Imagine if he's scum, no one will dare to lynch him !
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (2 newbies wanted !)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 19, 2014, 09:17:04 pm
/in

Newbie looking to play ;)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (2 newbies wanted !)
Post by: Teproc on March 19, 2014, 09:29:40 pm
Welcome !

One more and we're ready to go !

Again, if you have any questions do no hesitate (prefereably by PM to me once the game has started).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (1 more newbie and go !)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 19, 2014, 09:37:06 pm
Delirious Deleuze and I have a twinclaim or whatever, we know each other IRL. That thing.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (2 newbies wanted !)
Post by: 2.71828..... on March 19, 2014, 10:09:03 pm
How awesome would it be if Donald X. was the final newbie here?

this would be great.  and I will /tag even though I probably wont be able to follow the game all that closely.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (2 newbies wanted !)
Post by: mail-mi on March 19, 2014, 10:10:39 pm
How awesome would it be if Donald X. was the final newbie here?

this would be great.  and I will /tag even though I probably wont be able to follow the game all that closely.
E's back!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (2 newbies wanted !)
Post by: mail-mi on March 19, 2014, 10:11:06 pm
How awesome would it be if Donald X. was the final newbie here?
Someone should PM him.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (1 more newbie and go !)
Post by: yuma on March 20, 2014, 12:26:47 am
Did Cookielord ever get told this game was going? Wasn't he one who wanted a newbie game?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (1 more newbie and go !)
Post by: ashersky on March 20, 2014, 01:22:46 am
Did Cookielord ever get told this game was going? Wasn't he one who wanted a newbie game?


I reposted in the request thread.  He did want in.  That would get this game full.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (2 newbies wanted !)
Post by: 2.71828..... on March 20, 2014, 09:37:52 pm
How awesome would it be if Donald X. was the final newbie here?

this would be great.  and I will /tag even though I probably wont be able to follow the game all that closely.
E's back!

I wouldn't quite say that.  I am in a 17 week course and am finishing up week 9, so there is still a good while before I can consider actually playing.  I might have time for a game after that, but I will have some more training that will last several months.  I may not actually be "back" until November or so.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (1 more newbie and go !)
Post by: Robz888 on March 21, 2014, 01:16:21 am
/tag
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (1 more newbie and go !)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 23, 2014, 11:14:30 am
/in
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (1 more newbie and go !)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 23, 2014, 11:48:03 am
/in

Ichi!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (1 more newbie and go !)
Post by: Teproc on March 23, 2014, 01:09:19 pm
Great ! We're full, and I will send PMs tonight.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (full)
Post by: Teproc on March 23, 2014, 04:41:36 pm
Frank Underwood, in an orange jumpsuit sitting in a jail cell, is looking straight into the camera.

"Why do people get in politics ? Power. Not all of them have the disposition and the perseverance to truly acquire it though. Choosing money over power is a mistake nearly everyone makes in Washington. Money is the McMansion in Sarasota that starts falling apart after 10 years. Power is the old stone building that stands for centuries.

But some politicians are even worse than these sell-outs : they choose to wield power, not for themselves, but for what they like to call the common good. How one can even fathom the idea of climbing your way up the ladder, only to idly waste it in the end is beyond me, but there are such people, even in Washington.

These people are the reason I am here. They unveiled my schemes and machinations and for what ? Only to stay lurking in the shadows, living their pathetic lives, trying to make themselves into heroes for a country that thinks of them as the scum of the earth.

With them in Washington, it will be impossible for people like you and me to get anything done. I want them obliterated."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOSqyGal6zA
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (full)
Post by: Teproc on March 23, 2014, 04:41:59 pm
PMs incoming, thread locked
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (full)
Post by: Teproc on March 23, 2014, 05:59:55 pm
All PMs are out. Please confirm by PM / ask any questions that come up

Also, to avoid any confusion about the flavor, since it's somewhat counterintuitive:
Town = Corrupt Politicians
Mafia = Idealists
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: Teproc on March 24, 2014, 10:28:41 am
All players haven't confirmed yet. While I would prefer to start this today, I won't start until everyone confirms.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: Teproc on March 25, 2014, 06:20:19 am
"Did you think that I'd forgotten you ? Perhaps you hoped I had. For those of us climbing to the top of the food chain, there can be no mercy. There is but one rule: Hunt or be hunted."

Day 1 starts now !
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: Teproc on March 25, 2014, 06:27:58 am
Vote Count 1.0:

Not Voting (9): Nik, Witherweaver, Delirious Deleuze, Ichimaru Gin, A Drowned Kernel, mcmcsalot, shraeye, faust, Voltaire

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 12:00 p.m. on April 1, 2014.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: faust on March 25, 2014, 06:40:00 am
Sorry to keep you waiting, all games seem to have started while I was away...

Hi to all newbies! I hope you enjoy playing this, and stick around.

Generally, the game starts with RVS (random voting stage). You just vote for people jokingly, and we hope that the reactions give us something to catch scum with.

It goes like this: Vote: Nik because he has a shorter name than me!

There's also theory discussion sometimes, depending on the setup. Here we could ask: Do we want the PRs to claim? This is dangerous territory however, because you need to take care that the mafia can't take clues from your answers (i.e. if you would post "I think the Cop should claim", and you do not claim, that probably means you're not the Cop).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: faust on March 25, 2014, 06:54:52 am
Also, can everyone maybe state their previous mafia experience, and their timezone?

I'm at Central European Time (GMT+1). I played a bunch of games here, as you can see in my signature.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: shraeye on March 25, 2014, 07:14:40 am
why does everybody always need to know the timezones of other people? that is not necessary information to teach/play/enjoy a mafia game.

This link is a helpful quick-jump into the idea of mafia: link (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Quick_Guide_to_Mafia)

I suggest thinking through what certain players might be trying to do, depending on their win-condition.  For example, as that Quick Guide says, scum have motivation to contribute little to the thread.  However, there is a level of Vizzini (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_eZmEiyTo0)-like thinking that can be employed.  Sometimes, this is referred to as 'wine in front of me' or WIFOM.  Sometimes it happens without being explicitly referred to.

How much of this layered thinking one chooses to employ or should employ depends highly on who is doing the thinking and who is being thought about.  Because many players have distinctive styles, we call these 'metas'.  However, some players seek to alter their metas from time to time, either to make themselves less easy to read (boooo), or because they are trying to improve their overall abilities (yaaay), or because they are simply bored of one way or another (hey, it happens).

Anytime you have questions, or somebody (stupid vets) posts something in shorthand that you aren't familiar with, feel free to ask.  In general, everybody should be 100% accurate about pure-information-questions.  (What is L-1?  It means that a person is one vote away from being made the day's official lynch).  However, take the answers to other questions with grains of salt (Does faust's first post match his meta?).  Those answers can often be skewed to fit with the player's in-game objectives.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: Nik on March 25, 2014, 07:19:46 am
Vote: shraeye because I can't spell his name. Plus, how do you pronounce that?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: shraeye on March 25, 2014, 07:36:46 am
rhymes with day.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 25, 2014, 08:16:40 am
Hi all.  I may not be able to be extremely active until the evening for the next couple of days.  After that I should be fine.

There are two scum in this setup? I'm guessing one will be a veteran player.  It probably wasn't set up randomly given the structure of a newbie game.  But I have no reason to guess any particular one, so I'll randomly Vote: Voltaire.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: faust on March 25, 2014, 08:20:00 am
Hi all.  I may not be able to be extremely active until the evening for the next couple of days.  After that I should be fine.

There are two scum in this setup? I'm guessing one will be a veteran player.  It probably wasn't set up randomly given the structure of a newbie game.  But I have no reason to guess any particular one, so I'll randomly Vote: Voltaire.

It was set up randomly. Everything else would not be fair, because it would allow arguments like this.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: Teproc on March 25, 2014, 08:30:25 am
Alignments and roles were determined randomly.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 25, 2014, 08:34:37 am
Damn, there goes my reading comprehension.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 25, 2014, 09:09:04 am
Jeez shraeye way to be informative and helpful, vote:shraeye for making a helpfull post
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: shraeye on March 25, 2014, 10:12:43 am
Jeez shraeye way to be informative and helpful, vote:shraeye for making a helpfull post
I know, right?

I started by just saying, get don't tell us your time zones, and then decided I could actually get some constructive words in before I had to correct more lies about "How We Play"(tm)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 25, 2014, 10:15:23 am
Vote: Ichimaru Gin for not being a real newbie.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 25, 2014, 10:18:19 am
Also I'm on US central time.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 25, 2014, 10:39:57 am
vote: ADK for actually paying attention.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 25, 2014, 10:41:58 am
And I'm on Pacific Time which is GMT -7

Just woke up here it's 7:41 A.M.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 25, 2014, 10:48:08 am
Newbie here!

Vote: Voltaire. Candide was only okay.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: Voltaire on March 25, 2014, 10:58:02 am
Hi all.  I may not be able to be extremely active until the evening for the next couple of days.  After that I should be fine.

There are two scum in this setup? I'm guessing one will be a veteran player.  It probably wasn't set up randomly given the structure of a newbie game.  But I have no reason to guess any particular one, so I'll randomly Vote: Voltaire.

OMGUS vote: Witherweaver! (Oh My God U Suck, ie I am voting for WW simply because he voted for me)

faust and shraeye open the game with posts explaining things to newbies. I do too (sorta). I get no read from that.

Also, it's good to be back playing mafia! For those of you who know my meta, I will be posting very little this week and likely therefor not one of the top D1 posters like I normally am.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 25, 2014, 10:59:32 am
Vote: Voltaire. Candide was only okay.

Acceptable only if you hold a certain opinion about Micromegas.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 25, 2014, 11:04:04 am
Also I suppose I could put some useful information up or something. This is my third mafia game on the forums, which makes me a sort of half-newbie I guess. I've also played a bit IRL, usually while inebriated.

Other newbies: Welcome to mafia, hope you guys have fun! Vets: shraeye, faust and mc are all familiar faces, this is my first game with Voltaire. I don't have any questions yet, this setup is much simpler than the two others I've played.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 25, 2014, 11:08:04 am
Much better, I think.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 25, 2014, 11:09:39 am
Who else thought it was cool when the name of this thread was House of Cards (full)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 25, 2014, 11:13:49 am
Also, this is my second game of mafia on the forum. I've played with faust and Voltaire before--but don't know anyone else--except mcmc who modded the game I played.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 25, 2014, 11:17:48 am
Well I don't trust philosophers.  I learned from Month Python that they're all alcoholics.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Teproc on March 25, 2014, 11:21:44 am
Vote Count 1.1:

shraeye (2): Nik, mcmcsalot
Voltaire (2): Witherweaver, Delirious Deleuze
Nik (1): faust
Ichimaru Gin (1): A Drowned Kernel
A Drowned Kernel (1): Ichimaru Gin
Witherweaver (1): Voltaire

Not Voting (1): shraeye

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 12:00 p.m. on April 1, 2014.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 25, 2014, 12:34:12 pm
Vote: ADK I am terrible at reading you thus you are a good first lynch for me. This is a real vote
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 25, 2014, 02:35:09 pm
Hi all.  I may not be able to be extremely active until the evening for the next couple of days.  After that I should be fine.

There are two scum in this setup? I'm guessing one will be a veteran player.  It probably wasn't set up randomly given the structure of a newbie game.  But I have no reason to guess any particular one, so I'll randomly Vote: Voltaire.

So question to everyone, what are the odds witherweaver is mafia with a veteran partner who told him to say this. In an attempt to gain town cred. It has become a recent thing to give towncred(often to newbies) who make crucial setup errors that are unlikely to come from mafia.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 25, 2014, 02:45:54 pm
Well the time I was mafia, I definitely feel that I was encouraged to play up my newbishness. In the end, i Probably over did it but it still worked in my favor some I think. Although it's possible that it's an honest town question. It seems like scum would want to play up the confusion a little more.

Phone post
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 25, 2014, 03:00:53 pm
Well the time I was mafia, I definitely feel that I was encouraged to play up my newbishness. In the end, i Probably over did it but it still worked in my favor some I think. Although it's possible that it's an honest town question. It seems like scum would want to play up the confusion a little more.

Phone post

would scum really want to sound overly confused or confident in their thought and then be able to go "oh! wow sorry I missed that entirely" I mean WW's post was thought out he gave a guess(one vet, one newbie) and a reason(newbie game)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: Voltaire on March 25, 2014, 03:02:16 pm
Hi all.  I may not be able to be extremely active until the evening for the next couple of days.  After that I should be fine.

There are two scum in this setup? I'm guessing one will be a veteran player.  It probably wasn't set up randomly given the structure of a newbie game.  But I have no reason to guess any particular one, so I'll randomly Vote: Voltaire.

So question to everyone, what are the odds witherweaver is mafia with a veteran partner who told him to say this. In an attempt to gain town cred. It has become a recent thing to give towncred(often to newbies) who make crucial setup errors that are unlikely to come from mafia.

Definitely something to look at if ww ever flips mafia or I guess if a vet flips mafia. The trend of "play up the newb" has developed in response to the (correct) use of setup errors to identify new players as town (not to create ICs, goddamn it I cannot wait to be in a game with Robz and rage at him  8) ) but anyway.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 25, 2014, 03:02:57 pm
Well the time I was mafia, I definitely feel that I was encouraged to play up my newbishness. In the end, i Probably over did it but it still worked in my favor some I think. Although it's possible that it's an honest town question. It seems like scum would want to play up the confusion a little more.

Phone post

would scum really want to sound overly confused or confident in their thought and then be able to go "oh! wow sorry I missed that entirely" I mean WW's post was thought out he gave a guess(one vet, one newbie) and a reason(newbie game)

It's also what at least one newbie always says in these games at the start.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 25, 2014, 03:10:55 pm
Well the time I was mafia, I definitely feel that I was encouraged to play up my newbishness. In the end, i Probably over did it but it still worked in my favor some I think. Although it's possible that it's an honest town question. It seems like scum would want to play up the confusion a little more.

Phone post

would scum really want to sound overly confused or confident in their thought and then be able to go "oh! wow sorry I missed that entirely" I mean WW's post was thought out he gave a guess(one vet, one newbie) and a reason(newbie game)

I mean it seems like a pretty legitimate question to me.

I don't entirely understand this. Are you saying you think scum would play up more confidence in misconceptions or confusion? Because there isn't a huge distinction in my mind. Although of course my example was only why I emphasized as scum.

Still, I feel like we'd question was honest.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 25, 2014, 03:11:39 pm
*What I emphasized
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 25, 2014, 03:14:05 pm
Sorry

*His question was honest

Phone posting sucks. I'll try to proofread better.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 25, 2014, 03:16:08 pm
I'm thinking a coached newbie would play up confidently being incorrect. Because the more confidence the more likely they are too get town cred because "scum would never make that mistake" or at least that's the response he would want to get.

You were coached to play up newbie ness, much different than being coached to make a setup error.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 25, 2014, 03:21:04 pm
Good point, mcmc.

I am null on WW so far. I think I am now leaning town on mcmc for his approach/bringing this up.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 25, 2014, 03:22:38 pm
Ok that makes sense. I see the difference in , "what does this mean" vs. "I think this is the case"

And also that the greater confidence would hopefully garner town credit.
PPE: 1
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 25, 2014, 09:29:28 pm
So my question was actually innocent; I just didn't read all of the first post carefully enough.  Though me being coached would rely on my  guess that there is at least one veteran scum.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 25, 2014, 09:54:02 pm
So this may be a newbie question too.  It seems like (as town) you would generally not want to lynch during the first day.  Simply because there are more town than scum.  So your chance of mislynch is pretty high.. even if one or two players gets a good read, the chance of a majority going along with the correct lynch seems small. 

Is there usually a day 1 lynch in these games?  Has anyone done the statistics on how often they're correct?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 25, 2014, 10:12:46 pm
Oh hey some stuff's happening.

Vote: ADK I am terrible at reading you thus you are a good first lynch for me. This is a real vote

I think I've proven pretty bad at reading you too. I get the logic behind the vote but hopefully we'll have something better to go on before the end of the day.

Hi all.  I may not be able to be extremely active until the evening for the next couple of days.  After that I should be fine.

There are two scum in this setup? I'm guessing one will be a veteran player.  It probably wasn't set up randomly given the structure of a newbie game.  But I have no reason to guess any particular one, so I'll randomly Vote: Voltaire.

So question to everyone, what are the odds witherweaver is mafia with a veteran partner who told him to say this. In an attempt to gain town cred. It has become a recent thing to give towncred(often to newbies) who make crucial setup errors that are unlikely to come from mafia.

I'm hesitant to bring up past history in a newbie game, but the last time I saw a vet go after a newbie for seeming "coached" was when raerae did it in Adventure Time, and she ended up being scummy scum scum. You at least went about it in a more direct manner than the whole "set up a trap" thing, though.

I think I read WW's question as honest, positing that he was told "ask this specific setup question, it will make you seem like a misinformed towny" seems a little too elaborate of a plan, especially when it's so likely to backfire (as it is for him). But it could be honest scum, i.e. he knows that his partner is scum and assumed that it was automatically supposed to be that way.

Ichimaru thinks the question is innocent, though I'd direct him to my point above. Volt's null on WW, leaning town on MC. I disagree, I mean his approach was honest but I think the level of planning and newbie coaching he's talking about might be something scum wants town to think happens but is just something they can jump on to get people mislynched.

So I guess, slightly scum on mc and ww, though I doubt they're partners, so I'll hold off the vote. Mostly nullish on Ichi and Volt. We'll see what other people weigh in with.

I suppose if we're doing serious votes now I'll unvote.

PPE: "No lynch" is almost always anti-town as far as I understand. Even if you mislynch, that gives you information based on interactions that went on during the day.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 25, 2014, 10:34:33 pm
I will unvote as well.

I think mcmc's serious vote and ending the RVS stage is mildly towny. In that RVS gets us pretty much nowhere--and scum would likely prefer for it to last as long as possible. However, I'm gonna sheep ADK and say that I think mcmc's point on ww was a stretch.

It's still incredibly early in the game though, so still have a null read on most everyone.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 25, 2014, 10:37:45 pm
Also to clarify for newbies: I picked up on what "PPE" means without ever figuring out what it stands for. It means you're responding to something that was posted while you wrote your post (or just listing how many such posts there were).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 25, 2014, 10:43:54 pm
Unvote as well.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 26, 2014, 12:41:38 am
Ppe officially means pre-post edit so when you hit post and it says there have been 2 new replied you would either:

Ppe: 2 (meaning you see there are two posts since you typed your post)
But it is more helpful to read them and say
Ppe: 2 followed by any relevant info you would want to add or edit based on those new posts.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 26, 2014, 12:47:39 am
So this may be a newbie question too.  It seems like (as town) you would generally not want to lynch during the first day.  Simply because there are more town than scum.  So your chance of mislynch is pretty high.. even if one or two players gets a good read, the chance of a majority going along with the correct lynch seems small. 

Is there usually a day 1 lynch in these games?  Has anyone done the statistics on how often they're correct?

We almost always lynch D1. We've (as a community) gotten better catching scum D1 (ie initially we were doing worse than random), but it actually doesn't matter as much as you'd think that we lynch scum D1 - the most important thing is that we lynch, so we know someone's alignment (the lynchee) for certain. (Usually we'll also have the N1 kill too). Having 2 data points D2 is a huge help in starting to sort through things.

Stuff said D1 is extremely helpful when you re-read it. That's key, everyone. Re-reading! Especially because sometimes the reason you're alive late in the game as town is your reads are horrible (not always, sometimes). Re-read and figure out what's going on.

As for this game specifically right now, everyone unvoted super-fast it seems. That's interesting.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 26, 2014, 12:53:26 am
I started a trend, I'm also intrigued by it.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 26, 2014, 12:57:25 am
I think new scum do tend to be timid with their votes. That, however, is a vague statement vaguely supported. Tiny bit of suspicion on the rapid unvotes, but not much. I'll likely have stronger reasons and reads later in the day that dwarf this - unless it leads to more interesting things.

(y'all know you've missed my post-counts...)  8)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 26, 2014, 12:59:56 am
Well I unvoted simply because I thought RVS was over--and since mcmc said his vote on ADK was serious, and mine wasn't. I figured that it made sense.

I don't want to assign any motives to ww, as I have no idea. But I know that in my first game (not so long ago), I would often follow the lead of other players--as I think it's helpful to get a feeling for the game. Speaking from my own experience, I might say that new players in general--scum or not--tend to be more timid. But of course, it probably has a lot to do with personality as well.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 26, 2014, 01:01:23 am
So this may be a newbie question too.  It seems like (as town) you would generally not want to lynch during the first day.  Simply because there are more town than scum.  So your chance of mislynch is pretty high.. even if one or two players gets a good read, the chance of a majority going along with the correct lynch seems small. 

Is there usually a day 1 lynch in these games?  Has anyone done the statistics on how often they're correct?

Regardless of its correct percentage it is a lynch town get so direct(hence my current vote on Adk due to the fact that he is difficult for me to read so a great lunch if he is mafia and still a decent lynch if he is town) also there is something referred I as parity, mafia wins when the equal Hal the town so currently there are 7 town and 2 mafia;

Mislynch/nk opens day 2 with 5T 2M
Mislynch/nk opens day 3 with 3T 2M(we get one more try)
Mislynch/nk opens day 4 with 1T 2M(we lose)

Nolych/nk opens day 2 with  6T 2M
Mislynch/nk opens day 3 with 4T 2M(we get one more try)
Mislynch/nk opens day 4 with 2T 2M(we lose)

So if we mislynch today we only get 2 guesses as town, if we guess today and get it wrong we still have 2 more guesses. So in a worst case scenario today is a "free guess"

Here is an example of where a nolynch would be good
Mislynch/nk opens day 2 with 5T 2M
Mislynch/blocked nk(doc) opens day 3 with 4T 2M now if we mislynch we lose but if we
Nolynch/nk opens day 4 with 3T 2M so we have essentially gotten an extra day with a smaller town

After a blocked nightkill, we have only have one guess even if we no lynch.

I hope that makes sense T stands for town an M stands for mafia
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Teproc on March 26, 2014, 07:13:24 am
Vote Count 1.2:

Voltaire (1): Delirious Deleuze
A Drowned Kernel (1): mcmcsalot
shraeye (1): Nik
Nik (1): faust
Witherweaver (1): Voltaire

Not Voting (4): shraeye, A Drowned Kernel, Ichimaru Gin, Witherweaver

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 12:00 p.m. on April 1, 2014.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 26, 2014, 07:41:15 am
This game is starting out slower than I would have liked. Let's see what we have until now.

Nik and Delirious Deleuze have no posts of any content. That's not good, but both are newbies, so I guess I'll forgive them. Still, what we need here is activity. If you're town, you want to be posting - both because it enables people to get a read on you and because you don't want to be lynched for being a lurker.

There's the multiple unvote thing. Weird. Also and all-newbie thing though, I'm not sure how much can be read into it. I think Ichimaru and Witherweaver look a little bit scummier from it because they just followed ADK's lead. Nothing serious though. Witherweaver also has this setup thingy going for him, which I think is more likely to come from town.

mcmc is generally helpful and points out useful stuff. Of course it may be a scum tactic to play the nice vet, but I get a townie vibe here.

Voltaire is Voltaire. Can't say anything about his alignment, but I think we should not lynch him D1. His is a strong asset as town.

shraeye has nothing posted yet expect some explanatory stuff for newbies at the start of the game. Would like to see more content here.

Vote: shraeye I guess for now, just as a motivation.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 26, 2014, 09:19:57 am
I think it would be a good cover to be extremely helpful to the new players.  It's going to be hard to want to lynch the guy who has been helping you out and showing you the ropes.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 26, 2014, 09:36:44 am
I think it would be a good cover to be extremely helpful to the new players.  It's going to be hard to want to lynch the guy who has been helping you out and showing you the ropes.

Completely agree with this.

That said, lynching shraeye just seems insane to me short massive, massive scuminess. Have you seen that dude's play recently?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 26, 2014, 09:38:02 am
I think it would be a good cover to be extremely helpful to the new players.  It's going to be hard to want to lynch the guy who has been helping you out and showing you the ropes.

Completely agree with this.

That said, lynching shraeye just seems insane to me short massive, massive scuminess. Have you seen that dude's play recently?

I haven't really followed his recent games and only remember him from M31, can you expand?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 26, 2014, 09:41:34 am
I think it would be a good cover to be extremely helpful to the new players.  It's going to be hard to want to lynch the guy who has been helping you out and showing you the ropes.

Completely agree with this.

That said, lynching shraeye just seems insane to me short massive, massive scuminess. Have you seen that dude's play recently?

I haven't really followed his recent games and only remember him from M31, can you expand?

He's just been crazy right with his reads lately.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: shraeye on March 26, 2014, 09:57:18 am
Hi all.  I may not be able to be extremely active until the evening for the next couple of days.  After that I should be fine.

There are two scum in this setup? I'm guessing one will be a veteran player.  It probably wasn't set up randomly given the structure of a newbie game.  But I have no reason to guess any particular one, so I'll randomly Vote: Voltaire.

So question to everyone, what are the odds witherweaver is mafia with a veteran partner who told him to say this. In an attempt to gain town cred. It has become a recent thing to give towncred(often to newbies) who make crucial setup errors that are unlikely to come from mafia.

Much more important question.  What do YOU think?  Also, who's answer was most revealing?


would scum really want to sound overly confused or confident in their thought and then be able to go "oh! wow sorry I missed that entirely" I mean WW's post was thought out he gave a guess(one vet, one newbie) and a reason(newbie game)

Is this an either/or question? it seems to me that confused and confident are two disparate states of mind.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 26, 2014, 10:01:02 am
I think I read WW's question as honest, positing that he was told "ask this specific setup question, it will make you seem like a misinformed towny" seems a little too elaborate of a plan, especially when it's so likely to backfire (as it is for him). But it could be honest scum, i.e. he knows that his partner is scum and assumed that it was automatically supposed to be that way.

Ichimaru thinks the question is innocent, though I'd direct him to my point above.
what?  you said the question was honest...can you explain more how ichimaru is wrong to say it's innocent?  What's the difference between honest and innocent?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 26, 2014, 10:03:07 am
So this may be a newbie question too.  It seems like (as town) you would generally not want to lynch during the first day.  Simply because there are more town than scum.  So your chance of mislynch is pretty high.. even if one or two players gets a good read, the chance of a majority going along with the correct lynch seems small. 

Is there usually a day 1 lynch in these games?  Has anyone done the statistics on how often they're correct?
there ususally is a day1 lynch.  I'm not sure how often they are correct, but I think with standard deviations and all, it probably encompasses what you would get from random lynching.

PPE: "No lynch" is almost always anti-town as far as I understand. Even if you mislynch, that gives you information based on interactions that went on during the day.
You gotta own your opinions, yo.  Don't qualify them with "as far as I understand".  What's so bad about a no-lynch?  If we're worried about parity, why not do two nolynches?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 26, 2014, 10:04:01 am
As for this game specifically right now, everyone unvoted super-fast it seems. That's interesting.
Interesting how?

I started a trend, I'm also intrigued by it.
Intrigued how?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 26, 2014, 10:06:13 am
mcmc is generally helpful and points out useful stuff. Of course it may be a scum tactic to play the nice vet, but I get a townie vibe here.


Maybe I missed it; what helpful stuff are you talking about with mcmc?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 26, 2014, 10:37:02 am
mcmc is generally helpful and points out useful stuff. Of course it may be a scum tactic to play the nice vet, but I get a townie vibe here.


Maybe I missed it; what helpful stuff are you talking about with mcmc?

I was thinking of the explanations of PPE and the benefits of lynching vs no-lynch. Also he picked up on Witherweaver's setup error post, which is I think the most interesting thing that happened so far.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 26, 2014, 10:55:20 am
you're saying that he picked up on the post, as if nobody else had seen it yet?  More confusion.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 26, 2014, 10:59:16 am
you're saying that he picked up on the post, as if nobody else had seen it yet?  More confusion.

He was the first one to analyze Witherweaver's question to find out his alignment, was he not?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 26, 2014, 11:24:00 am
I think I read WW's question as honest, positing that he was told "ask this specific setup question, it will make you seem like a misinformed towny" seems a little too elaborate of a plan, especially when it's so likely to backfire (as it is for him). But it could be honest scum, i.e. he knows that his partner is scum and assumed that it was automatically supposed to be that way.

Ichimaru thinks the question is innocent, though I'd direct him to my point above.
what?  you said the question was honest...can you explain more how ichimaru is wrong to say it's innocent?  What's the difference between honest and innocent?

My point was, that WW's question being honest doesn't mean that he's not scum- he might have been confused about the setup either way.

I started a trend, I'm also intrigued by it.
Intrigued how?

People tend to just leave their random votes out until they have a serious vote, and I did something unusual by unvoting. Maybe they were just following the example of a more experienced player, but it's still a little noteworthy. You've got me on what it means, though.

What's so bad about a no-lynch?

I think mc's post sums it up pretty nicely.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 26, 2014, 11:53:50 am
What's so bad about a no-lynch?

I think mc's post sums it up pretty nicely.
I'm not sure it does.

you're saying that he picked up on the post, as if nobody else had seen it yet?  More confusion.

He was the first one to analyze Witherweaver's question to find out his alignment, was he not?
He was actually not the first to analyze Wither's question.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 26, 2014, 12:09:20 pm
shraeye, I have no idea what you mean. Could you point me to the post where someone talks about Witherweaver's error before mcmc?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 26, 2014, 12:13:26 pm
What's so bad about a no-lynch?

I think mc's post sums it up pretty nicely.
I'm not sure it does.

I mean, if we mislynch twice in a row, then day 3 opens with us in the same place that we would be day if we had lynched, except we essentially let mafia choose our first lynch for us.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 26, 2014, 12:16:05 pm
vote: shraeye

I don't believe he is confused about why no-lynching is bad, that's faked which is only explainable by him being scum(mafia).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 26, 2014, 12:20:56 pm
vote: shraeye

I don't believe he is confused about why no-lynching is bad, that's faked which is only explainable by him being scum(mafia).

I disagree. I think scum is much less likely to push a no-lynch. And there is some merit to no-lynching here, considering that the Cop cannot investigate before N2. I don't think we should no-lynch, but shraeye is certainly not scummy for this.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 26, 2014, 12:21:47 pm
vote: shraeye

I don't believe he is confused about why no-lynching is bad, that's faked which is only explainable by him being scum(mafia).
I'm not confused; I just disagree.  I think people have habits of oversimplifying things, and opinions on no-lynch and random-lynch are a symptom of that.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 26, 2014, 12:22:32 pm
shraeye, I have no idea what you mean. Could you point me to the post where someone talks about Witherweaver's error before mcmc?
mcmc is the first person to TALK about wither's setup stuff.  But he's not the first to analyze it.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 26, 2014, 12:39:50 pm
Ok. I'm back. I understand that there's not a lot to go on right now, but I think the unvoting trend just isn't that important.

Also, would there have been almost any interest if it hadn't been 3 players? What if it had just been me who had unvoted after ADK?

I know that I at least was motivated independently, although I do see the value in leaving RVS votes on people.

I think it would be a good cover to be extremely helpful to the new players.  It's going to be hard to want to lynch the guy who has been helping you out and showing you the ropes.

This is a really great observation. I know for sure that that's something I've had to overcome when playing this game. When people are nice to you, it's really hard to want to kill them. It can be difficult to just ignore any emotions you have, because I think there's a natural instinct for reciprocation, or responding in kind to people.

Eventually though, it just comes down to what people actually do. If they're acting scummy, it doesn't matter if they defended you or gave you some helpful tip, you have to play to your wincon. And it goes the other way too, if you feel like someone's acting like an asshole, but isn't really being that scummy, it can be hard to not vote for them. But you just have to ignore it if you want to make a rational decision.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 26, 2014, 12:45:50 pm
also vote: Nik we need participation.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 26, 2014, 12:46:54 pm
also vote: Nik we need participation.

Agreed.

Vote: Nik
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 26, 2014, 12:51:41 pm
also vote: Nik we need participation.

Agreed.

Vote: Nik

You do realize your vote was already on Nik, right?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 26, 2014, 12:56:29 pm
also vote: Nik we need participation.

Agreed.

Vote: Nik

You do realize your vote was already on Nik, right?

I think I voted shraeye some time after my vote on Nik.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 26, 2014, 01:02:05 pm
It seems like Shraeye is being very aggressive and spreading confusion.  Maybe this is just his play style.. I'm not sure.  My read right now is scum.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 26, 2014, 01:04:26 pm
It seems like Shraeye is being very aggressive and spreading confusion.  Maybe this is just his play style.. I'm not sure.  My read right now is scum.

How is being aggressive scummy? And what do you mean by "spreading confusion"?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 26, 2014, 01:13:15 pm
It seems like Shraeye is being very aggressive and spreading confusion.  Maybe this is just his play style.. I'm not sure.  My read right now is scum.

He's asking a lot of questions and analyzing people's motivations, which I read as a more towny trait. shraeye's probably my strongest town read so far.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 26, 2014, 01:15:24 pm
It seems like Shraeye is being very aggressive and spreading confusion.  Maybe this is just his play style.. I'm not sure.  My read right now is scum.

How is being aggressive scummy? And what do you mean by "spreading confusion"?

A lot of his pointed questions in the last page or so.. for example, the ones that lead to:

shraeye, I have no idea what you mean. Could you point me to the post where someone talks about Witherweaver's error before mcmc?
mcmc is the first person to TALK about wither's setup stuff.  But he's not the first to analyze it.

The original post seemed pretty clear.. someone said Mcmc was the first to post something reading into my original setup-error post, and Shraeye questioned it, to this end.  What's the significance of bringing up that someone can be the first to talk about something, but not the first to analyze it?  That other people are reading and thinking, but not posting?  That seems sort of, like, an empty statement.  Just saying stuff to have other kinds of tangential conversations.  hence, spreading confusion.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Teproc on March 26, 2014, 01:18:16 pm
Vote Count 1.3:

shraeye (2): Nik, mcmcsalot
Nik (2): Ichimaru Gin, faust
Voltaire (1): Delirious Deleuze
Witherweaver (1): Voltaire

Not Voting (3): shraeye, A Drowned Kernel, Witherweaver

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 12:00 p.m. on April 1, 2014.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 26, 2014, 01:50:37 pm
vote: shraeye

I don't believe he is confused about why no-lynching is bad, that's faked which is only explainable by him being scum(mafia).
I'm not confused; I just disagree.  I think people have habits of oversimplifying things, and opinions on no-lynch and random-lynch are a symptom of that.

I did not oversimplify it, I explained it very expanded it is manifestly better to lynch today, if we no lynch we do not gain any lynches and our final lynch will actually be from a larger pool of unkowns.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 26, 2014, 01:52:06 pm
It seems like Shraeye is being very aggressive and spreading confusion.  Maybe this is just his play style.. I'm not sure.  My read right now is scum.

He's asking a lot of questions and analyzing people's motivations, which I read as a more towny trait. shraeye's probably my strongest town read so far.

But he is generating reactions as he wants. It is something I follow quite a bit, scum wants to wait for lots of posts, and then analyze them and pressure people after the fact when he can represent it the way he wants and react to it appropriately.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on March 26, 2014, 04:22:55 pm
Ahh! Sorry I haven't posted, but what am I supposed to say? Sorry, I'm a über-newb.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 26, 2014, 04:36:00 pm
Say what you think. There's already been some back and forth between different players. Who do you think might be scum?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on March 26, 2014, 04:52:17 pm
Well, okay then. I have been thinking...Unvote.Vote: Delirious Deleuze because has he even voted?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 26, 2014, 04:58:11 pm
He's still voting for Voltaire but yeah, that was an RVS. Deleuze, where are you?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 26, 2014, 05:03:37 pm
Well, okay then. I have been thinking...Unvote.Vote: Delirious Deleuze because has he even voted?

What is your opinion of shraeye, do you agree or disagree with my points against him?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on March 26, 2014, 05:22:52 pm
Yeah, I totally agree with you that I think Shraeye is scum, but for now I think Deluze is scummier.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 26, 2014, 05:28:16 pm
Yeah, I totally agree with you that I think Shraeye is scum, but for now I think Deluze is scummier.

Based on what? What about shraeye do you think is scummy?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 26, 2014, 07:43:40 pm
As for this game specifically right now, everyone unvoted super-fast it seems. That's interesting.
Interesting how?

I'd like to think that one of them is a newbie scum worried that they're voting while no-one else is and hence the unvote, but I really have no way to test that.

FYI, very far behind and slowly catching up right now. Probably a flurry of reply posts coming.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 26, 2014, 07:45:09 pm
shraeye, I have no idea what you mean. Could you point me to the post where someone talks about Witherweaver's error before mcmc?
mcmc is the first person to TALK about wither's setup stuff.  But he's not the first to analyze it.

Are you saying you analyzed in your head and didn't post? That's great, but you can't expect us to be mind-readers.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 26, 2014, 07:47:52 pm
It seems like Shraeye is being very aggressive and spreading confusion.  Maybe this is just his play style.. I'm not sure.  My read right now is scum.

Shraeye is extremely aggressive. Spreading confusion I'm not so sure (I'm sure he'd do it as scum). That is his playstyle though (the aggressive thing). I will say, even though his reads were right in Adventure Time (previous game) he did a very poor job initially of convincing the rest of the town to lynch the scum he had identified. What I'm saying is, shraeye's playstyle overlaps with a generic opinion of "scummy" and I will not be lynching him today.

Oooooo, yes, it's the start of the D1 Voltaire lynch pool!  ;D
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 26, 2014, 07:48:35 pm
It seems like Shraeye is being very aggressive and spreading confusion.  Maybe this is just his play style.. I'm not sure.  My read right now is scum.

He's asking a lot of questions and analyzing people's motivations, which I read as a more towny trait. shraeye's probably my strongest town read so far.

Why exactly do you think shraeye is town? Shraeye asks almost entirely questions as scum.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 26, 2014, 07:50:52 pm
It seems like Shraeye is being very aggressive and spreading confusion.  Maybe this is just his play style.. I'm not sure.  My read right now is scum.

He's asking a lot of questions and analyzing people's motivations, which I read as a more towny trait. shraeye's probably my strongest town read so far.

But he is generating reactions as he wants. It is something I follow quite a bit, scum wants to wait for lots of posts, and then analyze them and pressure people after the fact when he can represent it the way he wants and react to it appropriately.

Yeah. It's also good if town posts a lot, because it encourages scum to post a lot (and that usually trips them up, though not immediately - again, re-reading is key to look at old posts after flips). The flipside is that scum likes to point out contradictions town makes (because townies are always re-evaluating and changing their minds based on new information) and pretend it's scummy, and it usually works.

All of which to say is, null on shraeye, but not lynching today I don't think.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 26, 2014, 07:53:38 pm
Hmmmm. Imma vote: Delirious Deleuze right now. As a pseudo-random lurker choice. I don't remember anything about him.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 26, 2014, 07:55:00 pm
Yeah, Candide joke and nothing. Good vote right now.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 26, 2014, 07:59:08 pm
It seems like Shraeye is being very aggressive and spreading confusion.  Maybe this is just his play style.. I'm not sure.  My read right now is scum.

He's asking a lot of questions and analyzing people's motivations, which I read as a more towny trait. shraeye's probably my strongest town read so far.

Why exactly do you think shraeye is town? Shraeye asks almost entirely questions as scum.

I don't have the same meta knowledge of him that you do so I won't know about that. I'm basing my town read on him off of his questions seeming pointed and insightful, though the thing with analyzing WW's post and "mc was just the first to post about it" does seem a little off.

I might see Deleuze later tonight, I can give him a real life prod.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 26, 2014, 09:04:29 pm
Sorry team!! I've been out of town, not lurking just busy. I'm super hungover today which why I haven't posted. I just read through the last three pages. My thoughts:

The questions by ww are curious, I think it's less innocent than what some believe but I don't think it's a conspiracy. People who are townies usually don't ask those sorts of questions. He seems to be dancing. Especially in his follow up post when he acknowledged his newbieness and continuined to ask questions. Maybe he's a newbie but I think this is curious enough to watch.

More interesting than that is shraeye's analysis of the post he does seem to be good at being driving the thread but also causing confusion. Whether it's purposeful or not I don't know yet. Smells kinda scummy. Unvote.

Vote:ww


I also think we should question people who are defending others based off their success in other games. I think this is a bit odd, and a good place to create false facades.

Sorry I haven't been posting. The whiskey flu is almost gone though.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 26, 2014, 09:20:15 pm
Nik do you care to explain why you think shraeye is scummy?

I get why people jumped on the lurker bad train with me, but I think you should post some thoughts.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 26, 2014, 10:33:15 pm
Enough people are voicing passive suspicion of shraeye I'm starting to think he's town. I seem to be the only one defending him, and I know he's not my scum partner.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 26, 2014, 10:44:33 pm
Why do you think he's a townie?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 26, 2014, 11:13:18 pm
Enough people are voicing passive suspicion of shraeye I'm starting to think he's town. I seem to be the only one defending him, and I know he's not my scum partner.

This is an interesting comment. It makes sense to me that scum are generally going to want "mild" scum reads on people perhaps setting them up for mislynches later.

Town-read on Volt--although still not too sure on shraeye
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 26, 2014, 11:21:26 pm
I am going to vote: Delerious Deluze

His analysis and suspicion of ww feel scummy to me. Aren't we pretty much 100% sure that ww is a newbie?
Would he really make a meta lie? ww's questions in of themselves are not inherently scummy, this is a newbie game after all. It's a place for newbs to ask questions and get comfortable while playing the game and learning from veterans.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 26, 2014, 11:22:02 pm
I know he's not my scum partner.

Who is your scum partner? :P
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 26, 2014, 11:31:05 pm
Just saw it was *Deleuze. I'll try to remember that ;D
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 26, 2014, 11:45:19 pm
I am going to vote: Delerious Deluze

His analysis and suspicion of ww feel scummy to me. Aren't we pretty much 100% sure that ww is a newbie?
Would he really make a meta lie? ww's questions in of themselves are not inherently scummy, this is a newbie game after all. It's a place for newbs to ask questions and get comfortable while playing the game and learning from veterans.

I'm a newbie too. I think the questions just seem a bit odd. Plus, I'm not the only person to comment on how those questions were weird. I don't understand why that's prompting a vote for me. That alone sounds suspicious that now you're just voting for me with very little reasons other than i sound scummy and two people voted for me for not posting enough.

If your real worry was me voting for WW why did you vote for other people who said that earlier and now are just choosing to jump on the bandwagon and divert attention to me?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 26, 2014, 11:45:52 pm
Why didn't you**
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 26, 2014, 11:59:51 pm
I am going to vote: Delerious Deluze

His analysis and suspicion of ww feel scummy to me. Aren't we pretty much 100% sure that ww is a newbie?
Would he really make a meta lie? ww's questions in of themselves are not inherently scummy, this is a newbie game after all. It's a place for newbs to ask questions and get comfortable while playing the game and learning from veterans.

I'm a newbie too. I think the questions just seem a bit odd. Plus, I'm not the only person to comment on how those questions were weird. I don't understand why that's prompting a vote for me. That alone sounds suspicious that now you're just voting for me with very little reasons other than i sound scummy and two people voted for me for not posting enough.

If your real worry was me voting for WW why did you vote for other people who said that earlier and now are just choosing to jump on the bandwagon and divert attention to me?

Yes, other people were saying some of the same things. However, your post strikes me as agreeing with them while being vague--e.g. mildly sheeping. I have stated from the beginning that I don't think ww's question means anything. You accuse me of jumping on a bandwagon, but I think it is quite the opposite. The only other vote on you is a soft-lurker vote from Volt--and aside from my post, there was no real case against you aside from lurking. It is a hallmark of scum to defend themselves by casting suspicion on others--which is exactly what you are doing in this situation. Also, to panic when they really aren't in any danger.

Also "divert attention to you" reads pretty scummy to me. Why, because it's safer to have the attention on ww?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 27, 2014, 12:02:14 am
And just saw that I missed Nik's vote on you. Also a soft-lurker vote though.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 27, 2014, 12:20:48 am
I'm defending myself because this is my first game and I'm 2 votes away from dying.

Your only evidence is that I'm defensive. And you're getting this off two posts of mine. Of course I'm going to state my thoughts and put out a vote, especially after people accuse me of lurking.

Yes I'm being sheepish. I don't think anyone knows who anyone is at this point. So excuse me for not charging in and just declaring that someone is skummy. I'd rather not be rash and make it so we all lose.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 27, 2014, 12:30:43 am
I'm defending myself because this is my first game and I'm 2 votes away from dying.

Your only evidence is that I'm defensive. And you're getting this off two posts of mine. Of course I'm going to state my thoughts and put out a vote, especially after people accuse me of lurking.

Yes I'm being sheepish. I don't think anyone knows who anyone is at this point. So excuse me for not charging in and just declaring that someone is skummy. I'd rather not be rash and make it so we all lose.

I understand that having pressure put on you is not pleasant--but this is how we get reactions out of people. You are not in danger of being killed right now, as 2/3 of the votes on you are not very serious (mine is only slightly more serious). Scum could always quick-hammer (assuming that neither you, or any of the people currently voting for you are scum). But that would be a very poor strategy for them, as we would then know who they were and eliminate them on subsequent days.

People are put up to L-2, and even L-1 all the time.

I understand how it is about not coming across as too hard and fast with your reads. This is a generally a good idea, however, it is by no means the reason I am voting for you. I find you scummy because.

1. You are sheeping the ww case.

2. I interpret your reactions so far as mildly scummy.

This is by no means a permanent opinion, at any time, you or someone else could (and probably will), do something that changes my mind. However, I am only going off of what has transpired so far. D1 (and most days) there are usually many cases that are started, but are eventually sidetracked, or simply do not pan out. It is incredibly rare for the first wagon D1 to be the person that ends up getting lynched that day.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 27, 2014, 12:35:19 am
Why do you think he's a townie?

Because it seems to me like mafia might be testing the waters for a shraeye lynch - they don't want to stick their necks out there and try to lynch one of the strongest players (if town) D1 but would be totally willing if they can convince enough people. It is also a mafia tactic to call someone scummy but not vote for them. Many people have done that about shraeye.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 27, 2014, 12:39:33 am
I know he's not my scum partner.

Who is your scum partner? :P

ash and Teproc!

(this is a reference to the fact that they were my scummates the one time I won an MVP, which feels strange given that I enjoy and think I am better at playing as town)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 27, 2014, 08:51:59 am
Why do you think he's a townie?

Because it seems to me like mafia might be testing the waters for a shraeye lynch - they don't want to stick their necks out there and try to lynch one of the strongest players (if town) D1 but would be totally willing if they can convince enough people. It is also a mafia tactic to call someone scummy but not vote for them. Many people have done that about shraeye.

But I am the one who started the wagon and actually find him scummy, scum could join me, I think its always more likely in these situation that he actualy is scum and his partner is distracting from his wagon and other townies are just being cautious because the cae is by no means a grand slam
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 27, 2014, 09:43:52 am
Sorry team!! I've been out of town, not lurking just busy. I'm super hungover today which why I haven't posted. I just read through the last three pages. My thoughts:

The questions by ww are curious, I think it's less innocent than what some believe but I don't think it's a conspiracy. People who are townies usually don't ask those sorts of questions. He seems to be dancing. Especially in his follow up post when he acknowledged his newbieness and continuined to ask questions. Maybe he's a newbie but I think this is curious enough to watch.

More interesting than that is shraeye's analysis of the post he does seem to be good at being driving the thread but also causing confusion. Whether it's purposeful or not I don't know yet. Smells kinda scummy. Unvote.

Vote:ww


I also think we should question people who are defending others based off their success in other games. I think this is a bit odd, and a good place to create false facades.

Sorry I haven't been posting. The whiskey flu is almost gone though.

Me being a newbie is a provable fact, not a claim.  This is my first game.  The original posts verify this. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 27, 2014, 10:41:01 am
Enough people are voicing passive suspicion of shraeye I'm starting to think he's town. I seem to be the only one defending him, and I know he's not my scum partner.

I don't get this.  Why does more suspicion indicate he's town?  Because the more people that suspect him, the  more likely one of them is scum?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 27, 2014, 11:28:12 am
Enough people are voicing passive suspicion of shraeye I'm starting to think he's town. I seem to be the only one defending him, and I know he's not my scum partner.

Hey, I defended him as well!

I do understand however that his playstyle might make people want to vote him, so I'm not sure whether scum is pushing this, and I don't think it implicates shraeye as town. Also how have you been defending him if only now you are starting to think he's town?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 27, 2014, 11:34:31 am
The wagon on DeDe is interesting as well. Two votes are for him lurking. Then he comes in with a reasonable post with content, and participates. He could expand a bit more on the Witherweaver case, but hey, he makes a case! Ichimaru thinks he looks scummy from this... I will looks at their exchange in my next post.

Right now I'm asking Voltaire and Nik: are you still comfortable with your votes? Because it seems the reason for these votes is now gone.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 27, 2014, 11:41:04 am
Okay, so I'm really not getting what Ichimaru sees as scummy in DeDe's posts. His first point is "DeDe sheeps a WW case". I do not see where that case has been made before. Sure we talked about him, but did anyone find him as scummy as DeDe did? He did not even have a vote on him prior to DeDe's vote. I don't think that's sheeping.

Ichimaru's second point is that DeDe is defensive. True, but that's not scummy. For a certainty I expect a newbie who is put at L-2 to be defensive, regardless of alignment.

So Ichimaru's case here seems oddly artificial to me, like trying to build a case just to have content.

Vote: Ichimaru for that.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 27, 2014, 11:42:01 am
The wagon on DeDe is interesting as well. Two votes are for him lurking. Then he comes in with a reasonable post with content, and participates. He could expand a bit more on the Witherweaver case, but hey, he makes a case! Ichimaru thinks he looks scummy from this... I will looks at their exchange in my next post.

Right now I'm asking Voltaire and Nik: are you still comfortable with your votes? Because it seems the reason for these votes is now gone.

DeDe doesn't seem to have a strong case against him, and if it turns out he is scum I think it would just be coincidental.  He was originally called out for not posting much, but that's it.  So then he posted, tried to make some arguments, and got accused, so now he's defending.  I could easily see myself reacting that way.

Shraeye seemed to disappear after his initial barrage of questionable questions.  Well my first instinct on his actions was scum, and that hasn't changed, and it's the only read I've gotten during this game, so I'm going to go ahead and vote for it.  Vote: Shraeye
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 27, 2014, 11:45:29 am
Can someone explain more what is meant by "sheeping"?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 27, 2014, 11:47:53 am
Can someone explain more what is meant by "sheeping"?

Sheeping - voting for someone that another player found suspicious without adding thoughts of your own. (As in "you're following him like a sheep")
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Teproc on March 27, 2014, 11:54:08 am
Vote Count 1.4:

Delirious Deleuze (3): Nik, Voltaire, Ichimaru Gin
shraeye (2): mcmcsalot, Witherweaver
Witherweaver (1): Delirious Deleuze
Ichimaru Gin (1): faust

Not Voting (2): shraeye, A Drowned Kernel

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 12:00 p.m. on April 1, 2014.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 27, 2014, 12:01:05 pm
Can someone explain more what is meant by "sheeping"?

Sheeping - voting for someone that another player found suspicious without adding thoughts of your own. (As in "you're following him like a sheep")

Doesn't DeDe's vote not count as sheeping then?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 27, 2014, 12:09:32 pm
Can someone explain more what is meant by "sheeping"?

Sheeping - voting for someone that another player found suspicious without adding thoughts of your own. (As in "you're following him like a sheep")

Doesn't DeDe's vote not count as sheeping then?

That's what I was saying.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 27, 2014, 02:00:44 pm
Ok. Just woke up. There's always a lot that happens while I'm asleep.

Me being a newbie is a provable fact, not a claim.  This is my first game.  The original posts verify this.

Why would dd question this?

Also, no one has seemed to comment on dd saying "diverting attention from ww". It's like ww should be the focus--when I don't really see the case against him right now.

Okay, so I'm really not getting what Ichimaru sees as scummy in DeDe's posts. His first point is "DeDe sheeps a WW case". I do not see where that case has been made before.

So being the first one to mention something is scummy? I aknowledge that I may be completely wrong, but I am just speaking what I saw there.

And. . .on looking at some of your other guy's posts. I can see the logic that any newbie (scum or no) would likely react the way that dd did though. So perpaps I am reading too much into things.

I must say it is difficult, because in most regular games, newbies are given D1 passes. But here in this game, where over half the players are newbies, this doesn't seem practical. I know that I at least, wasn't subjected to this much pressure D1 as a newbie.

Very well, unvote

I still think the case on ww is pretty trumped up. I will be checking out shraeye though, as I haven't really gotten what that case is about.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 27, 2014, 05:19:18 pm
Ichimaru unvotes again!

Looking over it, I feel like people feel like there's more pressure on shraeye than there actually is, it's not some sort of super-strong wagon. mc voices suspicion of him but it doesn't seem too serious, and a couple of newbies agree with him. Maybe I'm just used to larger games but that doesn't seem like he's any imminent danger.

That said, I'm interested to hear what his thoughts are, it's been awhile since he posted. Nik and other newbies, keep posting!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on March 27, 2014, 05:32:44 pm
On the Shraeye situation:
It is strange that he is a vet and yet has so many odd questions; especially since he posted a helpful bit at the beginning.
Shraeye, where are you?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 27, 2014, 05:39:11 pm
I think his questions are less about him being confused and more about him investigating people's motivations, which is a good thing for him to be doing.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 27, 2014, 05:59:53 pm
Ichimaru unvotes again!

And who are you currently voting for?

If you find me scummy for this, why don't you vote for me, instead of casting mild suspicion and then doing nothing?

It is still very early in the game, and it is my opinion that RVS was perhaps cut prematurely short (although it could just be that this is a smaller setup).

Yes, I agree that newbs should keep posting as they comprise a large part of the player pool and it should help the game to move forward instead of stalling.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 27, 2014, 06:04:33 pm
Ahh! Sorry I haven't posted, but what am I supposed to say? Sorry, I'm a über-newb.

I don't see scum posting this. I really don't. Town read on Nik, don't want to lynch him today.

Also, something I just realized, we need a soft deadline in case we accidentally are going to lynch the doc or cop so we have time to switch to someone else. (Scum can't fakeclaim because the real PR will counterclaim and a 1-for-1 trade is great for town here). So how about a soft deadline (time we all agree to lynch) at 5 PM forum time on March 31? That's a day before the deadline, and it should give the lynchee time to claim (don't like as town, if scum claims to be a PR the real PR can counterclaim them and then we lynch either the first claimant or the second, even if we get it wrong we know who to lynch the next day, and a 1-for-1 trade is, again, better for town).

So here's where I stand right now:

Nik - just don't see scum asking "what should I post?"
Witherweaver
Delirious Deleuze
Ichimaru Gin
A Drowned Kernel
mcmcsalot
shraeye - would need a really compelling reason
faust
Voltaire - won't lynch myself

Of the remaining candidates, mcmc and WW strike me as town right now. So I'd like to lynch within DD, Ichi, ADK, and faust. So in that sense, I'm fine leaving my vote on DD for now. I haven't looked at post counts yet, btw, and still have a few posts to catch up on.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 27, 2014, 06:05:36 pm
Okay, so I'm really not getting what Ichimaru sees as scummy in DeDe's posts. His first point is "DeDe sheeps a WW case". I do not see where that case has been made before. Sure we talked about him, but did anyone find him as scummy as DeDe did? He did not even have a vote on him prior to DeDe's vote. I don't think that's sheeping.

Ichimaru's second point is that DeDe is defensive. True, but that's not scummy. For a certainty I expect a newbie who is put at L-2 to be defensive, regardless of alignment.

So Ichimaru's case here seems oddly artificial to me, like trying to build a case just to have content.

Vote: Ichimaru for that.

I like this. Enough to unvote DD for sure.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 27, 2014, 06:09:21 pm
that should be "don't lie as town" a few posts above
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 27, 2014, 06:21:14 pm
It'd be nice to hear more from mcmc and shraeye.


town reads on: volt, nik, shraeye

null on: ww, adk, faust

possible scum: dd, mcmc,

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 27, 2014, 06:30:57 pm
Also, something I just realized, we need a soft deadline in case we accidentally are going to lynch the doc or cop so we have time to switch to someone else. (Scum can't fakeclaim because the real PR will counterclaim and a 1-for-1 trade is great for town here). So how about a soft deadline (time we all agree to lynch) at 5 PM forum time on March 31? That's a day before the deadline, and it should give the lynchee time to claim (don't like as town, if scum claims to be a PR the real PR can counterclaim them and then we lynch either the first claimant or the second, even if we get it wrong we know who to lynch the next day, and a 1-for-1 trade is, again, better for town).

I think this is a good fail-safe. Hopefully, we can avoid PR claims though--as it seems pretty bad given the alternating night mechanic. And whether or not the subsequent night will be even or odd could affect this. For example, if the cop claims D2, he can't be protected that night--when it matters the most. So I could easily a scum tactic of focusing attention on their PR suspects and trying to get them to a point where they claim. I agree that counter-claiming seems very risky for scum in this setup; but (especially if its a newbie team) we shouldn't rule out the possibility.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 27, 2014, 06:40:07 pm
There may be a point where it would be good play (NOT today) for the cop and doc to claim to create two ICs (guaranteed town players) because, again, scum counter-claiming will just give us a 50/50 choice. In essence, it'd be ignoring the fact that we have two PRs and pretending we had two Named Townies (for those of you consulting the wiki).

Obviously though it's better if we just use the roles as intended for a bit. And obviously better if we lynch scum, or failing that, a VT.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 27, 2014, 06:42:15 pm
There may be a point where it would be good play (NOT today) for the cop and doc to claim to create two ICs (guaranteed town players) because, again, scum counter-claiming will just give us a 50/50 choice. In essence, it'd be ignoring the fact that we have two PRs and pretending we had two Named Townies (for those of you consulting the wiki).

Obviously though it's better if we just use the roles as intended for a bit. And obviously better if we lynch scum, or failing that, a VT.

So they would be claiming without giving away which specific PR they were? Just two "Named Townies"?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 27, 2014, 06:49:24 pm
No, they would say "I'm the Cop" or "I'm the Doctor". (the comparison to the role "Named Townie" is in that we'd simply care that they were the Doc or Cop, not necessarily about any results they have)

Imagine this scenario: We lynch scum today. A VT dies tonight. If the Cop and Doc decide to claim tomorrow, our lynch pool would be down to 4 from the VTs point-of-view (7 living players, 2 are our PRs, they know they themselves are town) instead of 7. Now, I don't think that's worth it. But, imagine that we then lynch a VT, and a VT dies N2. D3 dawns with 5 living players. Say our PRs claim then. Our lynch pool for the VTs goes from 4 to 2 - and the Cop has a N2 result to claim. Which, if it's a town result on one of the VTs, wins the game.

(so, you say, why won't scum counter-claim one of the PRs? Because even if they get us to lynch the real cop, they kill someone at night, we still have D4 with 3 alive, 1 scum, and the scum is obvious.)

So that's a situation where it makes sense for the Doctor and Cop to claim immediately (D3, no PRs have died). There might be others. There might not be. Just something for them to think about. The decision on when to claim or not claim should always be made in the best judgement of the PR themselves, because any advice from the town is prone to scum manipulation.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 27, 2014, 11:12:14 pm
I like the soft deadline idea. I've seen very little this game that's voteworthy for me yet, but I do have a pretty strong town read on shraeye and a mostly town read on DeDe, taking a stance on WW seemed like a good town move for a newbie. Volt laying at this plan and explaining the claiming business to the newbies might be a point in his favor, but scum would also want to appear this helpful, so I'll keep an eye on him.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 27, 2014, 11:16:08 pm
ADK, other vets have done the "explain stuff" thing too - are you suspicious of them as well?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 27, 2014, 11:30:10 pm
Not exactly suspicious but I'm just trying to put it out there that just because you were helpful doesn't mean you're not scum. The point was made earlier in the day I think so it doesn't need to be hammered home.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 28, 2014, 08:54:36 am
I know he's not my scum partner.

Who is your scum partner? :P

haha! zing!  great joke.

But my opinion of Voltaire is towny right now.  He seems to be going about the "sorting things out" properly phase.  Good townies do that.

Glad to see more from DelDel; keep it coming!

More thoughts: Ichi and DelDel are talking back and forth, and I'm kinda confused following what they're saying.  If somebody could try to break that down, it'd be nice.  Ichi, you've done the mafia-games before, yes?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: shraeye on March 28, 2014, 09:00:25 am
Hi all.  I may not be able to be extremely active until the evening for the next couple of days.  After that I should be fine.

There are two scum in this setup? I'm guessing one will be a veteran player.  It probably wasn't set up randomly given the structure of a newbie game.  But I have no reason to guess any particular one, so I'll randomly Vote: Voltaire.

So question to everyone, what are the odds witherweaver is mafia with a veteran partner who told him to say this. In an attempt to gain town cred. It has become a recent thing to give towncred(often to newbies) who make crucial setup errors that are unlikely to come from mafia.

Much more important question.  What do YOU think?  Also, who's answer was most revealing?


would scum really want to sound overly confused or confident in their thought and then be able to go "oh! wow sorry I missed that entirely" I mean WW's post was thought out he gave a guess(one vet, one newbie) and a reason(newbie game)

Is this an either/or question? it seems to me that confused and confident are two disparate states of mind.

MCMC; ANSWER THESE.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 28, 2014, 09:13:49 am
vote: shraeye

I don't believe he is confused about why no-lynching is bad, that's faked which is only explainable by him being scum(mafia).
I'm not confused; I just disagree.  I think people have habits of oversimplifying things, and opinions on no-lynch and random-lynch are a symptom of that.

I did not oversimplify it, I explained it very expanded it is manifestly better to lynch today, if we no lynch we do not gain any lynches and our final lynch will actually be from a larger pool of unkowns.
Just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean I'm confused.  I understand what you're saying with the argument that involves lynch-pools and knowns, and MYLO/LYLO.  I just disagree with the conclusion that it's always manifestly better to lynch day1. 

Mafia is a game of human interaction, and when we simplify it to probabilities and step-by-step outlines of cases involving xTown/yMafia, we are ignoring all of the hunches/evidence/bias and stuff that can sway decisions.  And those variables can be affected by nolynching and stuff. 

There are multiple things to consider, and it's not a cut-and-dry "nolynch on day 1 is always the worst" situation.  So you still gonna vote me for disagreeing with you?  Or is there something else you wanna talk about?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 28, 2014, 09:22:45 am
I like the soft deadline idea. I've seen very little this game that's voteworthy for me yet, but I do have a pretty strong town read on shraeye and a mostly town read on DeDe, taking a stance on WW seemed like a good town move for a newbie. Volt laying at this plan and explaining the claiming business to the newbies might be a point in his favor, but scum would also want to appear this helpful, so I'll keep an eye on him.
It's not quite fair to say "scum would want to be helpful".  Town would as well.  In fact, I joined this game to try to have fun/be helpful/introduce newbies to mafia.  Hopefully the other vets did too.  I would expect all vets to be helpful in their own way.

On the Shraeye situation:
It is strange that he is a vet and yet has so many odd questions; especially since he posted a helpful bit at the beginning.
Shraeye, where are you?

I get busy in real life a lot.  If all newbies leave this game with a healthy distrust of people's "they're not here; they must be scum" arguments, I will consider it a success.  :)

Also, the questions are a nice way to kickstart a game.  They're gameable by scum, but so is voting. You should feel free to reach your own conclusions about answers to my questions; but once I have the answers, and I've made conclusions about them worth sharing, i'll share them.  That's what I do.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 28, 2014, 09:52:33 am
I was saying I think scum would want to sound confident in their statement about the setup(incorrectly) instead of soundin confused by it. Because the confident but wrong would be more likely to get town cred from the vets.

So I mean to say would scum want to sound overly confused or would they want to sound confident.

As to the other question, I think there is a decent chance he's scum with a vet. I need to reread the answers to see who exactly said what but I would want to look at the vets answers as if I am right that would be an awkward thing to respond too.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 28, 2014, 09:56:14 am
Hate that point in newbie games where I think to myself alright I want to lynch one of these people and then I realize they are all the newbies.

unvote shraeye's most recent post is giving me more of a town vibe, I still would lynch adk(tough to read) ww(the potential coaching) and ichi(gut scum read possibly carried over from dw2)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 28, 2014, 10:21:08 am
shraeye, I have no idea what you mean. Could you point me to the post where someone talks about Witherweaver's error before mcmc?
mcmc is the first person to TALK about wither's setup stuff.  But he's not the first to analyze it.

The original post seemed pretty clear.. someone said Mcmc was the first to post something reading into my original setup-error post, and Shraeye questioned it, to this end.  What's the significance of bringing up that someone can be the first to talk about something, but not the first to analyze it?  That other people are reading and thinking, but not posting?  That seems sort of, like, an empty statement.  Just saying stuff to have other kinds of tangential conversations.  hence, spreading confusion.

Cool; I finally can talk about this potentially confusing bit.  mcmc was the first to post stuff regarding Wither's question, but he didn't actually analyze it.  He just asked people what the odds were that Wither was scum with a vet partner.  Ichi is the first person to analyze it, and then mcmc agrees with him. 

Asking direct questions at a player and following up the answers is a classic technique.  But it is substantially different from asking "hey, who thinks this is scummy?" and then seeing who agrees before following up with your analysis on a subject.  The first is one town loves.  The second is one that scum loves.

________________

I think that it's a fabulous idea to lynch a vet, and mcmc's unvote on me is super suspicious.  I changed basically none of my opinions.  Before, mcmc was voting for me because I was disagreeing with his ideas on no-lynch, and because he says I was asking lots of questions and waiting to represent things how I wanted, which is something scum would love.
Here be the three posts I want to cite:
vote: shraeye

I don't believe he is confused about why no-lynching is bad, that's faked which is only explainable by him being scum(mafia).
I'm not confused; I just disagree.  I think people have habits of oversimplifying things, and opinions on no-lynch and random-lynch are a symptom of that.

I did not oversimplify it, I explained it very expanded it is manifestly better to lynch today, if we no lynch we do not gain any lynches and our final lynch will actually be from a larger pool of unkowns.
It seems like Shraeye is being very aggressive and spreading confusion.  Maybe this is just his play style.. I'm not sure.  My read right now is scum.

He's asking a lot of questions and analyzing people's motivations, which I read as a more towny trait. shraeye's probably my strongest town read so far.

But he is generating reactions as he wants. It is something I follow quite a bit, scum wants to wait for lots of posts, and then analyze them and pressure people after the fact when he can represent it the way he wants and react to it appropriately.
Well, okay then. I have been thinking...Unvote.Vote: Delirious Deleuze because has he even voted?

What is your opinion of shraeye, do you agree or disagree with my points against him?

Then my "Recent posts" that he cites as towny can be summed up as follows:
#200: I'm still not confused about no-lynch; I still just disagree; I still think you were oversimplifying it.
#201: Sure, asking questions is gameable by scum, but it's still what I'm going to do because I find it useful.  Feel free to make your own opinions.

So I just reiterate my position on the two things that mcmc says I was scummily doing (and added some bit about "absence doesn't imply scum" and "vets should be helpful").  And somehow this reverses mcmc's opinion of me entirely.  That's baloney.

MY impression is that he just got cold feet on pushing the shraeye-lynch once people started expressing townreads on me.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 28, 2014, 10:26:40 am
Hate that point in newbie games where I think to myself alright I want to lynch one of these people and then I realize they are all the newbies.

unvote shraeye's most recent post is giving me more of a town vibe, I still would lynch adk(tough to read) ww(the potential coaching) and ichi(gut scum read possibly carried over from dw2)

So it's probably bad form to be suspicious of someone just because they're suspicious of you, but this potential coaching thing feels like grasping at straws.  What's more likely, that I'm going to open up my first game with an elaborate ruse with questionable payoff, or that I made a simple error of not reading through everything carefully?

What would be the benefit of me being coached to say that?  To make everything think I'm town?  It would seem a lot more effective and safe to hang out and observe.

And what vet would it be?  You said Shraeye was town, and obviously you don't think it's you, so that only leaves Faust and Voltaire.  (I'm assuming the last four on the list of signups are the vets.)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 28, 2014, 10:50:42 am
Ww I totally agree with you that it's there a good chance it means nothing. Notice I am not voting you(meaning given the evidence I am not convinced your the best lynch)

Shraeye your disagreement to my no -lynch stance still frustrates me because I do not believe I ever said no-lynching day 1 is always a bad idea I said it is manifestly a bad idea for today. But I guess I can understand the disagreement of blanket statements like nolynch=bad.

You have become more present and in the moment than before so I unvoted.

@ww just read the end of your post, I said shraeye was townier, but my guess for your partner would be volt followed by shraeye, again this is just speculation as it's all we have to go on so far.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 28, 2014, 10:54:01 am
Okay actually back to vote: shraeye his most recent attack of me saying he can finally respond to the question(since I answered) is extremely similar to what raerae did to Adk in a very recent game where she was scum. My answer didn't really matter to shraeye's post, he just waned to wait to attack me till after I posted.

Sorry my thought are all jumbled, phone posting at work is rough.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Teproc on March 28, 2014, 11:04:37 am
Vote Count 1.5:

shraeye (2): Witherweaver, mcmcsalot
Delirious Deleuze (1): Nik
Witherweaver (1): Delirious Deleuze
Ichimaru Gin (1): faust

Not Voting (4): shraeye, A Drowned Kernel, Ichimaru Gin, Voltaire

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 12:00 p.m. on April 1, 2014.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 28, 2014, 11:22:06 am
Okay actually back to vote: shraeye his most recent attack of me saying he can finally respond to the question(since I answered) is extremely similar to what raerae did to Adk in a very recent game where she was scum. My answer didn't really matter to shraeye's post, he just waned to wait to attack me till after I posted.

Sorry my thought are all jumbled, phone posting at work is rough.
Your answer did matter.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 28, 2014, 11:25:00 am
And my reasons for voting you is your decision to call me towny for reiterating the exact same opinions that made you call me scummy earlier.

You have become more present and in the moment than before so I unvoted.

@ww just read the end of your post, I said shraeye was townier, but my guess for your partner would be volt followed by shraeye, again this is just speculation as it's all we have to go on so far.


"more present and in the moment???"  what does that even mean?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 28, 2014, 11:29:24 am
It means you are here responding to things as they happen instead of responding to things long after they have been discussed.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 28, 2014, 11:38:26 am
so you're saying that it's scummy to talk about stuff that's passed.

but because I showed up in the thread and starting commenting on new stuff, that you read it as towny...despite the fact that I was ALSO still talking about the old stuff that you found me scummy for.  And still saying the same things as I was saying before.

That still seems super suspicious.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 28, 2014, 11:43:10 am
FYI it was AndrewisFTTW that raerae set up in that game, not me, though I do remember it and I do see the similarity here. shraeye, what specifically about mc's response do find objectionable- that he back off on voting for you?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 28, 2014, 11:56:23 am
Ichi, you've done the mafia-games before, yes?

Yeah. I've played one game before. Dynasty Warrriors II, if you want to see my one game scum meta  ;D

So yeah, I'm kind of a pseudo-newb I guess.

Haven't really caught up on all the stuff posted while I was asleep, but I have work now. So I should be back in about 5 hours with more to say.

I am more suspicious of mcmc though.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 28, 2014, 11:59:56 am
so you're saying that it's scummy to talk about stuff that's passed.

but because I showed up in the thread and starting commenting on new stuff, that you read it as towny...despite the fact that I was ALSO still talking about the old stuff that you found me scummy for.  And still saying the same things as I was saying before.

That still seems super suspicious.

I do not see how it's suspicious to think your scummy for posting lots of questions directed at stuff that happened a long time ago and being generally confusing(reference to the no-lynch stuff) then to find you towny as you began to post more regularly and have a solid presence(forcing genuine reactions) as well my understanding you saying no-lynch isn't always bad and not just disagreeing with me that it is bad this game.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 28, 2014, 12:22:09 pm
I do not see how it's suspicious to think your scummy for posting lots of questions directed at stuff that happened a long time ago

Those questions about stuff "a long time ago".  They were asked a long time ago.  I looked at them, and the biggest gap between event that happened, and shraeye's question about it was ~20 hours.  Here is the time gap for all the topics I talked about scummily in your eyes:
~20 hrs, ~12 hrs, ~12 hrs, ~9 hrs, ~3 hrs.

The set of posts that you found towny this morning were referring to things that happened ~33hrs pre-post, ~43 hrs pre-post, ~10 hrs pre-post, ~16 hours pre-post. 

So I have no IDEA what. the. jack. you are talking about.  I am in no way more "in the moment" now than I was then.  You're just making a hack-job of pretending to have a reason for reads.  Scum. Found.

vote: mcmc
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 28, 2014, 12:24:42 pm
Omgus  ;)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 28, 2014, 12:26:25 pm
Shraeye is being overly difficult and picking things apart like crazy in the way he wants it to be portrayed, this is what scum does. We see ash do it all the time. He's abrasive and strong willed an it's a great way to get someone mislynched.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 28, 2014, 12:34:02 pm
Haha, haha.  That's like a textbook ad hominem.  How crazy/abrasive/strong-willed I am is irrelevant to my reasons for voting you.

Which are solid reasons.  Which you aren't refuting.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 28, 2014, 12:40:30 pm
Haha, haha.  That's like a textbook ad hominem.  How crazy/abrasive/strong-willed I am is irrelevant to my reasons for voting you.

Which are solid reasons.  Which you aren't refuting.

Your reasons are that my reasons for voting and unvoting your are bad therefor I am scum. Nothing to refute other than your wrong and you are simply finding me scummy for having an easily changeable mind(oh and everything I say is always scummy to people)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 28, 2014, 12:45:56 pm
Not sure what to do with this fight. Not sure I understand it as well. mcmc, shraeye, could you sum up why think the respective other is scum?

I have shraeye as slight town and mcmc as null read at the moment.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 28, 2014, 01:02:53 pm
Sure; mcmc's unvote of me was really suspicious.  I pointed out how his voting for me was because of my question-asking method, and what he supposed was feigned confusion about no-lynching because I was disagreeing that it was bad.  When I showed up today with more posts, mcmc said I now looked towny. 

But the content of today's early posts were more of the same; I said I was going to keep asking questions because it works for me, and I said that I still disagreed with his oversimplification of the no-lynch situation.

So I pointed out that mcmc found my posts on the 26th of march scummy, and my posts on the 28th of march towny, despite the fact that they held the same information.  Mcmc's response was terrible.  He now says that the reason I looked towny this morning is because I "seem more present and in the moment" (a direct quote).  Earlier when he found me scummy it was for "for posting lots of questions directed at stuff that happened a long time ago and being generally confusing" (a direct quote).

So I went back and looked at both days.  I showed that on both the 26th and the 28th, I was talking about things that had happened within similar timeframes.  In fact, if anything, the stuff I posted this morning was about topics that were older than the stuff I posted on the 26th.  So I'm being LESS "in the moment" today.

Nothing mcmc is saying checks out.  It's apparent to me that these 'reads' are phony-baloney.  I surmise that he had a scumread on me for stretchy reasons.  When I started fighting back, he tried to placate me by calling me town.  When I called him out on having fishy reads, he manufactured a reason that the facts don't back up.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 28, 2014, 01:47:10 pm
I find shraeye scummy because I think he asked me to answer a question and then respond with "oh look how scummy mcmc is being" I don't think he really talked about why my response was scummy. I also think he is being overly difficult and uncharacteristicly abrasive. I think he has seen how easy of a mislynch I am and is trying to push it through. I genuinely don't see how posting my reads and thought on him are "phoney-baloney"(direct quote...) and how that makes me scum. There is a chance shraeye is town and I am just the worst player ever and should shut my mouth and stop giving reads because they make no sense and I'm confusing, but I junk more likely shraeye is scum was quiet during the beginning of the day an waited till I started giving some reads and posting some thoughts, once he found something he could jump on and make sound scummy(my read on him and unvote) he went after me hard.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 28, 2014, 02:16:26 pm
I don't feel shraeye is being up realistically or uncharacteristically abrasive. He posted a bunch of questions all at once because he wasn't active until then. He answered direct questions people posted to him, and continued with questions of his own.

He even explains why he is overly questioning things as a good starting point.

He asks MCMC to answer a few questions and it's only at this point that MCMC really starts lashing out and claiming shraeye was being scummy.

I find shraeye scummy because I think he asked me to answer a question and then respond with "oh look how scummy mcmc is being" I don't think he really talked about why my response was scummy. I also think he is being overly difficult and uncharacteristicly abrasive. I think he has seen how easy of a mislynch I am and is trying to push it through. I genuinely don't see how posting my reads and thought on him are "phoney-baloney"(direct quote...) and how that makes me scum. There is a chance shraeye is town and I am just the worst player ever and should shut my mouth and stop giving reads because they make no sense and I'm confusing, but I junk more likely shraeye is scum was quiet during the beginning of the day an waited till I started giving some reads and posting some thoughts, once he found something he could jump on and make sound scummy(my read on him and unvote) he went after me hard.

Which is kind of ironic because MCMC asked shraeye questions and then responded by calling him scummy for his aggressive responses and questions. It feels like MCMC is just trying to take pressure off himself.

I really don't see anything particularly weird about Shraeyes responses and questions, but MCMCs response was quite defensive. Shraeye is right that the Unvote was out of places specially given that when shraeye asked more questions, he began to call him scummy.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 28, 2014, 02:19:08 pm
Why did you Unvote?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 28, 2014, 02:21:31 pm
I find shraeye scummy because I think he asked me to answer a question and then respond with "oh look how scummy mcmc is being" I don't think he really talked about why my response was scummy. I also think he is being overly difficult and uncharacteristicly abrasive. I think he has seen how easy of a mislynch I am and is trying to push it through. I genuinely don't see how posting my reads and thought on him are "phoney-baloney"(direct quote...) and how that makes me scum. There is a chance shraeye is town and I am just the worst player ever and should shut my mouth and stop giving reads because they make no sense and I'm confusing, but I junk more likely shraeye is scum was quiet during the beginning of the day an waited till I started giving some reads and posting some thoughts, once he found something he could jump on and make sound scummy(my read on him and unvote) he went after me hard.

Why are you such an easy mislynch?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 28, 2014, 02:31:49 pm
Why did you Unvote?

Is this at me? If so it's because I have said. I my original vote on shraeye was largely based on his reactivity rather than activity and I felt he was using that(the ability to react to older posts) to paint people as scummy. Another large part of my part of my vote was that I though shraeye was disagreeing with me that nolynch is a bad thing to me. He then clarified by saying he simply disagreed that it is always a bad choice, and he started to post(I felt like) on more current things and was being more active than reactive.  All the led to me unvoting.

Shraeye then put pressure on me for that which I find him scummy. I feel as though shraeye is taking everything is say as scummy no matter what, he disagreed/questioned my no lynch policy(which is correct ask any other vet) he jumped on me after asking me to answer a question in a way that seemed as though there was no answer I could have given where he wasn't going to jump on me(we have recently seen another mafia player do this and get caught) he has since argued that my explanations for why I voted and unvoted him are wrong(they are my reasons maybe the time stamps of posts don't agree but it's how I felt) so this is why I find him very argumentative and trying to paint me scummy no matter what I do.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 28, 2014, 02:36:41 pm

Why are you such an easy mislynch?

That isn't even something I should have said, it's a null argument but if you ask other vets they would say I am a relatively easy mislynch. I am not historically the most helpful(correct) town player so no one has a reluctance to vote for me and I am not known for "getting off" once a wagon forms on me like some people. But again I was frustrated and I shouldn't have even said it because it really doesn't mean anything and it's a defense scum could use just as easily as town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on March 28, 2014, 04:20:09 pm
Unvote. Vote: mcmcsalot
I have previously stated that Shraeye was suspicious, and I still think he is, but I'm getting a scum read on mcmcsalot. He's being very argumentative and keeps attacking Shraeye, and not very politely, either.
And about DD; I'm getting a null read on him now. I made the same mistake as he did, and it makes sense for a newb not to know what to post.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 28, 2014, 04:33:59 pm
Vote count?

I am still doing a reread, and I think I'll do a post count as well.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Teproc on March 28, 2014, 04:35:49 pm
Vote Count 1.6:

shraeye (2): Witherweaver, mcmcsalot
mcmcsalot (2): shraeye, Nik
Witherweaver (1): Delirious Deleuze
Ichimaru Gin (1): faust

Not Voting (3): A Drowned Kernel, Ichimaru Gin, Voltaire

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 12:00 p.m. on April 1, 2014.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 28, 2014, 04:47:18 pm
Ichimaru's Day 1 post count
Post Count (not including pre-game posts)

1. Nik: 6
2. Witherweaver: 16
3. Delerious Deleuze: 10
4. Ichimaru Gin: 26
5. A Drowned Kernel: 20
6. Mcmcsalot: 25
7. Shraeye: 23
8. faust: 18
9. Voltaire: 24

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 28, 2014, 04:53:59 pm
Ichimaru's Day 1 post count
Post Count

Give N$300 to Ichimaru Gin wait, what?

I can't get anything from shareye/mcmc at the moment because they're each following their metas (shraeye is being aggressive and argumentative and abrasive, mcmc is being slightly confusing and earnest). So null on their argument.

Looking at that post count, I want to take myself (because I'm me) out of my lynch pool, Nik out (what should I say? post, also, lowest poster [someone I usually eliminate on D1]), IG (highest poster), and then I'm tempted to sidestep shraeye/mcmc entirely for now, so I think I am happy with a

vote: faust

Reason? Mostly in the background, but not lurking (I am not accusing of actilurking), very little pressure so far, etc. Scum rarely is overtly scummy D1.

There are many other people I'd vote for right now. I'm hesitant to leave hard-core lurkers alive like I normally do because that leads to town losses if those people are indeed town because they stop following closely/are less likely to do crucial re-reads, so eh.

Speaking of which, I'll re-read this thread soon.

FYI, the weekend is usually slow, so everyone be ready to go Monday with the soft deadline and all.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 28, 2014, 04:56:13 pm
Ichimaru's Day 1 post count
Post Count

Give N$300 to Ichimaru Gin wait, what?

I noticed the redundancy right after I posted ;)

N$300?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 28, 2014, 04:58:51 pm
Also. No idea why there's a wink face on my last post. The forum is loading really slowly for me right now, like a full 20 seconds before whatever I post goes through.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 28, 2014, 04:59:25 pm
Why did you Unvote?

Is this at me? If so it's because I have said. I my original vote on shraeye was largely based on his reactivity rather than activity and I felt he was using that(the ability to react to older posts) to paint people as scummy. Another large part of my part of my vote was that I though shraeye was disagreeing with me that nolynch is a bad thing to me. He then clarified by saying he simply disagreed that it is always a bad choice, and he started to post(I felt like) on more current things and was being more active than reactive.  All the led to me unvoting.

Shraeye then put pressure on me for that which I find him scummy. I feel as though shraeye is taking everything is say as scummy no matter what, he disagreed/questioned my no lynch policy(which is correct ask any other vet) he jumped on me after asking me to answer a question in a way that seemed as though there was no answer I could have given where he wasn't going to jump on me(we have recently seen another mafia player do this and get caught) he has since argued that my explanations for why I voted and unvoted him are wrong(they are my reasons maybe the time stamps of posts don't agree but it's how I felt) so this is why I find him very argumentative and trying to paint me scummy no matter what I do.

He was responding to everyone, not just you. His posts were pretty all encompassing until you starting freaking out and acting very defensive. It's enough for a vote from me for now.

Unvote.

Vote:MCMC
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 28, 2014, 04:59:58 pm
Also. No idea why there's a wink face on my last post. The forum is loading really slowly for me right now, like a full 20 seconds before whatever I post goes through.

Miswink.  Obvious scum tell.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 28, 2014, 05:00:37 pm
Also. No idea why there's a wink face on my last post. The forum is loading really slowly for me right now, like a full 20 seconds before whatever I post goes through.

Miswink.  Obvious scum tell.
;)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 28, 2014, 05:03:37 pm
On a more serious note, does anyone find the argument between Shraeye and mcmc slightly contrived?

What are the odds that this is a scum ploy (we are looking for a 2 man team after all)?

Of course, I really don't know anything about either of their metas, but it still seems a little over-blown to me.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 28, 2014, 05:06:30 pm
Also. No idea why there's a wink face on my last post. The forum is loading really slowly for me right now, like a full 20 seconds before whatever I post goes through.

Miswink.  Obvious scum tell.
;)

He's laughing at us. SWITCH VOTES TO THIS SKUM! He even said he has a scum partner.

PPE: that's an interesting theory, gin. It's worth rereading. It really does seem over blown, but then again, I don't think shraeye is engaging it to much. The big dust seems to be flying from MCMC. But that could be planned. I don't know. It's worth following. I just don't know if it'd be in there interest to try to possibly get one of them lynched just to lull us into thinking one is a townie.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 28, 2014, 05:07:39 pm
On a more serious note, does anyone find the argument between Shraeye and mcmc slightly contrived?

What are the odds that this is a scum ploy (we are looking for a 2 man team after all)?

Of course, I really don't know anything about either of their metas, but it still seems a little over-blown to me.

What would be the upshot for them?  That we lynch one of them today and don't suspect the other?  Seems kind of dangerous given that there are only two scum. (We know for certain that's the case?  And no third parties?)

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 28, 2014, 05:12:57 pm
On a more serious note, does anyone find the argument between Shraeye and mcmc slightly contrived?

What are the odds that this is a scum ploy (we are looking for a 2 man team after all)?

Of course, I really don't know anything about either of their metas, but it still seems a little over-blown to me.

What would be the upshot for them?  That we lynch one of them today and don't suspect the other?  Seems kind of dangerous given that there are only two scum. (We know for certain that's the case?  And no third parties?)



This is what I thought. Seems too risky of a move.

Day 2 would start with 6 town, one scum. If there was a mislynch, Day 3 would be 4 town 1 scum. A ML would leave day 4 still 2 town one scum. Doesn't seem worth it.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 28, 2014, 05:15:00 pm
Also. No idea why there's a wink face on my last post. The forum is loading really slowly for me right now, like a full 20 seconds before whatever I post goes through.

Miswink.  Obvious scum tell.
;)

He's laughing at us. SWITCH VOTES TO THIS SKUM! He even said he has a scum partner.

PPE: that's an interesting theory, gin. It's worth rereading. It really does seem over blown, but then again, I don't think shraeye is engaging it to much. The big dust seems to be flying from MCMC. But that could be planned. I don't know. It's worth following. I just don't know if it'd be in there interest to try to possibly get one of them lynched just to lull us into thinking one is a townie.

On a more serious note, does anyone find the argument between Shraeye and mcmc slightly contrived?

What are the odds that this is a scum ploy (we are looking for a 2 man team after all)?

Of course, I really don't know anything about either of their metas, but it still seems a little over-blown to me.

What would be the upshot for them?  That we lynch one of them today and don't suspect the other?  Seems kind of dangerous given that there are only two scum. (We know for certain that's the case?  And no third parties?)

I agree it's pretty risky. But I also think it's important to look at all the possibilities. Scum can thrive on the "they would never do x because it's too risky" mentality. Also, (just a theory) scum may be slightly more bold during a newbie game--especially if they're both vets. And what if we lynch neither mcmc or Shraeye today, but one of them later on (I think this is quite possible). With an interaction this heated this early in the game, the surviving member could easily refer back to this.

Of the two though, I think mcmc comes out looking scummier.

PPE: I agree that is certainly not worth it providing we actually lynch one of the two today. If we don't though, this could set up one of them as a pseudo-IC on a later day.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 28, 2014, 05:15:18 pm
On a more serious note, does anyone find the argument between Shraeye and mcmc slightly contrived?

What are the odds that this is a scum ploy (we are looking for a 2 man team after all)?

Of course, I really don't know anything about either of their metas, but it still seems a little over-blown to me.

What would be the upshot for them?  That we lynch one of them today and don't suspect the other?  Seems kind of dangerous given that there are only two scum. (We know for certain that's the case?  And no third parties?)



This is what I thought. Seems too risky of a move.

Day 2 would start with 6 town, one scum. If there was a mislynch, Day 3 would be 4 town 1 scum. A ML would leave day 4 still 2 town one scum. Doesn't seem worth it.

And Cop can investigate the survivor on Night 2 and claim on Day 3.  Pretty much guaranteed town win unless they happen to kill the cop on Night 1 or Night 2.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 28, 2014, 05:23:22 pm
And Cop can investigate the survivor on Night 2 and claim on Day 3.  Pretty much guaranteed town win unless they happen to kill the cop on Night 1 or Night 2.

That's true--and a pretty powerful deterrent. Who knows who the cop will investigate though. If they agree with this suspicion (which scum may not have anticipated being brought to light this early), then it would ruin scum's plans--but what if they have a personal suspicion of someone else?

Again, just trying to make sure we consider all possibilities--although this one is looking less likely, I think we shouldn't rule it out. It is interesting analyzing a two man scum vs. a three man scum team (which shows up more often I think). As it seems both simpler (in that we are only looking for the interactions between 2 different people instead of 3), but also harder because there are less people involved and less total interactions or patterns to go off of. Of course, alignment will determine everything, and with a game this small I think once we hit one scum, we should be in pretty good shape.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 28, 2014, 05:44:48 pm
The idea of shraeye and mc's fight being staged treads into "conspiracy theory" ground for me, I think scum wants town to believe that scum uses pre-planned interactions like that when the simpler explanation, that one of them is scum trying to get the other mislynched (or they're both town and simply mistaken about the other) is more likely to be correct. If DeDe wasn't a newbie I'd consider him scummy for bringing it up.

Then again, he seems on the ball enough that maybe I shouldn't be giving him a newbie pass. Vote: Delirious Deleuze

Also as a note to newbies, you don't need to unvote before changing your vote, if you just type "vote: whoever" your old vote will be cancelled.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 28, 2014, 05:49:02 pm
The idea of shraeye and mc's fight being staged treads into "conspiracy theory" ground for me, I think scum wants town to believe that scum uses pre-planned interactions like that when the simpler explanation, that one of them is scum trying to get the other mislynched (or they're both town and simply mistaken about the other) is more likely to be correct. If DeDe wasn't a newbie I'd consider him scummy for bringing it up.

Then again, he seems on the ball enough that maybe I shouldn't be giving him a newbie pass. Vote: Delirious Deleuze

Also as a note to newbies, you don't need to unvote before changing your vote, if you just type "vote: whoever" your old vote will be cancelled.

Ichi brought it up, not DeDe.  DeDe sounded a little doubtful of it.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 28, 2014, 05:50:28 pm
The idea of shraeye and mc's fight being staged treads into "conspiracy theory" ground for me, I think scum wants town to believe that scum uses pre-planned interactions like that when the simpler explanation, that one of them is scum trying to get the other mislynched (or they're both town and simply mistaken about the other) is more likely to be correct. If DeDe wasn't a newbie I'd consider him scummy for bringing it up.

Then again, he seems on the ball enough that maybe I shouldn't be giving him a newbie pass. Vote: Delirious Deleuze

Also as a note to newbies, you don't need to unvote before changing your vote, if you just type "vote: whoever" your old vote will be cancelled.

Actually, I think I was the one who first brought up the "conspiracy theory". I must say though, from my limited experience as scum, I know for sure that my scumbuddies definitely brought up ideas for "staged interactions". Although not anything as radical as this, I think that we should consider the possibility. I still get a generally insincere feeling from their fight, so it just makes me a little suspicious.

PPE: 1
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 28, 2014, 05:53:11 pm
Also, I gotta give props to ww and dd. They both seem much more on top of things and putting out some good ideas--and challenging ones as well. (it's really nice when a lot of discussion happens other then when I'm asleep)
Although this also means that they will probably be judged a little more harshly too.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 28, 2014, 05:59:01 pm
Geez, need to read a little more carefully. Hmm, so should I switch to Ichimaru? If his scum partners in a previous game brought the idea up to him it makes more sense that he would consider it a possibility. I'm having a hard time getting a solid read on anybody. Shraeye seemed towny to me before the fight, but his "trap" moves him into suspicious territory. mc seems a little scummy but mc always seems a little scummy, both my experiences playing with him I was certain he was scum and he ended up being town so I'm hesitant to vote for him. But I shouldn't be relying on meta knowledge, especially in a newbie game. Voltaire makes a good point about faust, I'd like to hear more from him (faust that is, though more from Voltaire is always welcome.) Newbies are doing a good job being active so far, though Nik needs to get in more.

I'm rambling. Who's scummiest here? I find the idea of shraeye and mc's find being staged extremely contrived, and you're right, it was Ichi and not DeDe who brought it up. So

Vote: Ichi
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 28, 2014, 09:49:52 pm
I will post a more substantial response tomorrow, but I'm closing where I work and opening tomorrow morning, so I'm not going to have time to do a good post before 3 tomorrow
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 29, 2014, 12:33:23 am
Geez, need to read a little more carefully. Hmm, so should I switch to Ichimaru? If his scum partners in a previous game brought the idea up to him it makes more sense that he would consider it a possibility. I'm having a hard time getting a solid read on anybody. Shraeye seemed towny to me before the fight, but his "trap" moves him into suspicious territory. mc seems a little scummy but mc always seems a little scummy, both my experiences playing with him I was certain he was scum and he ended up being town so I'm hesitant to vote for him. But I shouldn't be relying on meta knowledge, especially in a newbie game. Voltaire makes a good point about faust, I'd like to hear more from him (faust that is, though more from Voltaire is always welcome.) Newbies are doing a good job being active so far, though Nik needs to get in more.

I'm rambling. Who's scummiest here? I find the idea of shraeye and mc's find being staged extremely contrived, and you're right, it was Ichi and not DeDe who brought it up. So

Vote: Ichi

I must say this vote seems a little half-hearted. It's like "I'm so confused, I vote x (voting without even reading enough to determine who said something first), so then I vote y."

If you truly believe that my so-called "conspiracy theory" is scummy, then this does make sense--in that you wish to vote for whoever started this idea. However, the fact that you are voting quickly, without even reading through to find the source is troublesome to me. I am tempted to vote for you.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 29, 2014, 12:34:03 am
Who was the first to voice the conspiracy theory?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 29, 2014, 12:35:01 am
It was me, but ADK at first thought it was Deleuze.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 29, 2014, 06:47:30 am
So, what happened?

In the mcmc/shraeye fight, shraeye comes off a little more townie than mcmc. I'm not convinced by shraeye's case, but mcmc's reactions to it has a scummy AtE feel.

Voltaire votes for me. Yeah, not much I can do about that because he doesn't really think I'm scummy.

Good input from DeDe solidifies my townread on him.

I still like my vote on Ichimaru. His case on DeDe was constructed, and now he brings up a conspiracy theory. I find it quite unlikely that mcmc and shraeye are scum together, and even if they are, I wouldn't think they staged this fight.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 29, 2014, 11:24:26 am
Okay, so it's been hard to form many ideas that feel like they have merit here.  This is my general view:

1. Nik - unsure, hasn't posted much
2. Witherweaver - town
3. Delirious Deleuze - I get the impression of town just trying to figure things out.
4. Ichimaru Gin - bringing up conspiracy theory could either be town just thinking out loud or scum trying to spread confusion; the artificial case against DeDe makes me lean towards scum.
5. A Drowned Kernel - null
6. mcmcsalot - I'm getting the impression of scum based on the shraeye interaction; he's also being generally helpful with information about Mafia, which could be a scum thing to make newbies want to lynch him less, or it could be an honest town thing to simply be helpful.  The case against me felt forced, so that adds to some suspicion.
7. shraeye  - originally thought was scum, now thinking more town.
8. faust - not sure, slight town read.
9. Voltaire- null

So, slight town on DeDe, Faust, Shraeye, slight scum on Ichi and McMc. 

I guess I'm going to unvote for now.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on March 29, 2014, 12:14:09 pm
Why not I do what witherweaver did? (I still don't really know what to post... :()

Witherweaver-Town
DD-Definite town. I used to be unsure, but now he is absolutely town
Ichi-Conspiracy theories? Post count? Seems scummy to me...
ADK-Null
Mcmcsalot-Well, I voted for him, so, scum (I explained in my vote why)
Shraeye-null
Faust-Possibly scum
Voltaire-Null
Nik-SCUM SCUM SCUM! Lurking at the beginning, then saying "oh...well...I just don't know what to post..." Ha! Pure trickery! Nik, who are your scum partners?  :P
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Teproc on March 29, 2014, 12:16:52 pm
Vote Count 1.7:

mcmcsalot (3): shraeye, Nik, Delirious Deleuze
Ichimaru Gin (2): faust, A Drowned Kernel
shraeye (1): mcmcsalot
faust (1): Voltaire

Not Voting (2): Ichimaru Gin, Witherweaver

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 12:00 p.m. on April 1, 2014.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on March 29, 2014, 12:22:32 pm
Rethinking about Ichimaru, I'm going to Unvote. Vote: Ichimaru Gin
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 29, 2014, 12:37:46 pm
I still like my vote on Ichimaru. His case on DeDe was constructed, and now he brings up a conspiracy theory. I find it quite unlikely that mcmc and shraeye are scum together, and even if they are, I wouldn't think they staged this fight.

Why does that make him scummy? Town is paranoid everyone is scum. I see nothing suspicious about him seeing the fight as scum v scum. In fact, it gave me a town read on him.

I do think you're scummy faust - nice try. I think you're doing a good job of not getting a terrible amount of pressure while still being present on D1, a classic scum position.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 29, 2014, 12:40:43 pm
Rethinking about Ichimaru, I'm going to Unvote. Vote: Ichimaru Gin

Why? Why is he scum?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on March 29, 2014, 12:43:45 pm
Ichi-Conspiracy theories? Post count? Seems scummy to me...
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 29, 2014, 12:47:19 pm
Ichi-Conspiracy theories? Post count? Seems scummy to me...
I think the conspiracy theory is a stretch, but I don't think it's a scummy stretch. 

Post counts are things that people really like to analyze for some reason.  Voltaire likes them, yuma likes them.  I hate them.  I find them terribly useless.  But it's a bad idea to think that somebody is scummy just because they use them (but maybe you and I can form a club that calls all those people misguided; even if they say that we're the misguided ones...it'll be great fun...raerae's in our club, and she's hella tight).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 29, 2014, 12:47:26 pm
Shraeye seemed towny to me before the fight, but his "trap" moves him into suspicious territory. mc seems a little scummy but mc always seems a little scummy, both my experiences playing with him I was certain he was scum and he ended up being town so I'm hesitant to vote for him. But I shouldn't be relying on meta knowledge, especially in a newbie game.

This is suspicious.  I have no "trap" set up.  mcmc did crazy stuff, I called him out.  then he did CRAZIER stuff.  And it just got worse from there. 

You're words on mcmc are the most waffling non-committal words of any commenter.  This is the way yuma came out as raerae's partner in Adventure Time mafia (a recent game that town won).  That position is very indicative of scum partner.  If mcmc flips scum, town should most definitely remember this interaction.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 29, 2014, 12:56:38 pm
Ichi-Conspiracy theories? Post count? Seems scummy to me...

Why are those things scummy?

I see one as townie, one as null.

Conspiracy theories: town is paranoid. They hate being fooled. They think everyone is scum.
Post count: How in the world is this scummy? It's a well-established tool used by many (including me) to scumhunt. It's prone to manipulation, just like everything else, but caring about post count is a big fat null.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 29, 2014, 12:57:55 pm
If mcmc flips scum, town should most definitely remember this interaction.

If we were to lynch either mcmc or ADK today, I would much rather lynch ADK.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 29, 2014, 12:58:34 pm
Shraeye seemed towny to me before the fight, but his "trap" moves him into suspicious territory. mc seems a little scummy but mc always seems a little scummy, both my experiences playing with him I was certain he was scum and he ended up being town so I'm hesitant to vote for him. But I shouldn't be relying on meta knowledge, especially in a newbie game.

This is suspicious.  I have no "trap" set up.  mcmc did crazy stuff, I called him out.  then he did CRAZIER stuff.  And it just got worse from there. 

You're words on mcmc are the most waffling non-committal words of any commenter.  This is the way yuma came out as raerae's partner in Adventure Time mafia (a recent game that town won).  That position is very indicative of scum partner.  If mcmc flips scum, town should most definitely remember this interaction.

Aren't his words on you equally noncommittal?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 29, 2014, 01:06:34 pm
I hadn't consdered that, Wither.  But now that I look at it, his words on me do commit.  I was towny before my stuff with mcmc.  But now he thinks I'm suspicious due to my case on mcmc.

People should look deeply at that...is my case on mcmc suspicious??  This rings more alarm bells for me; perhaps he's finding me scummy now because I'm looking eagerly at his partner.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 29, 2014, 01:09:44 pm
Do you really think you have the scum team D1, shraeye?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 29, 2014, 01:11:58 pm
Yeah it's possible I did; why not?  Do you think it's a better idea not to consider possible partners?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 29, 2014, 01:13:43 pm
I hadn't consdered that, Wither.  But now that I look at it, his words on me do commit.  I was towny before my stuff with mcmc.  But now he thinks I'm suspicious due to my case on mcmc.

People should look deeply at that...is my case on mcmc suspicious??  This rings more alarm bells for me; perhaps he's finding me scummy now because I'm looking eagerly at his partner.

To me he seems to have voiced simultaneous suspicion of both you and mcmc.  But he doesn't buy the conspiracy so he only thinks one is scum.  This could be him hedging as scum so that if one turns out to be he can claim this as a defense.  On the other hand, it could easily be what he actually thinks.  I know my inclination when two people go at it like this is that one is guilty, but I don't know which one. 

But I don't entirely understand his post.  ADK:  what did you mean by "trap"?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 29, 2014, 01:24:52 pm
Why not I do what witherweaver did? (I still don't really know what to post... :()

Witherweaver-Town
DD-Definite town. I used to be unsure, but now he is absolutely town
Ichi-Conspiracy theories? Post count? Seems scummy to me...
ADK-Null
Mcmcsalot-Well, I voted for him, so, scum (I explained in my vote why)
Shraeye-null
Faust-Possibly scum
Voltaire-Null
Nik-SCUM SCUM SCUM! Lurking at the beginning, then saying "oh...well...I just don't know what to post..." Ha! Pure trickery! Nik, who are your scum partners?  :P

Hello conf!town, no way scum jokes about themselves like that.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 29, 2014, 01:26:58 pm
Shraeye recent attack on Adk still feels to me like he's trying to force lynches and make as many people look scummy as he can as opposed to lookin at interactions a simply trying to figure out if players are scummy or towny.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 29, 2014, 01:29:59 pm
Why not I do what witherweaver did? (I still don't really know what to post... :()

Witherweaver-Town
DD-Definite town. I used to be unsure, but now he is absolutely town
Ichi-Conspiracy theories? Post count? Seems scummy to me...
ADK-Null
Mcmcsalot-Well, I voted for him, so, scum (I explained in my vote why)
Shraeye-null
Faust-Possibly scum
Voltaire-Null
Nik-SCUM SCUM SCUM! Lurking at the beginning, then saying "oh...well...I just don't know what to post..." Ha! Pure trickery! Nik, who are your scum partners?  :P

Hello conf!town, no way scum jokes about themselves like that.

Man, I wouldn't have thought to suspect Nik's joke until you posted this.  If this were true then it would be a great defense for scum, so it wouldn't be true. 

It almost makes me think you said this as an extremely subtle way to get people to suspect Nik.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on March 29, 2014, 01:31:06 pm
Ichi-Conspiracy theories? Post count? Seems scummy to me...

Why are those things scummy?

I see one as townie, one as null.

Conspiracy theories: town is paranoid. They hate being fooled. They think everyone is scum.
Post count: How in the world is this scummy? It's a well-established tool used by many (including me) to scumhunt. It's prone to manipulation, just like everything else, but caring about post count is a big fat null.
Hmm...if this is the case, then Unvote. Vote:Mcmcsalot
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 29, 2014, 01:36:40 pm
Why not I do what witherweaver did? (I still don't really know what to post... :()

Witherweaver-Town
DD-Definite town. I used to be unsure, but now he is absolutely town
Ichi-Conspiracy theories? Post count? Seems scummy to me...
ADK-Null
Mcmcsalot-Well, I voted for him, so, scum (I explained in my vote why)
Shraeye-null
Faust-Possibly scum
Voltaire-Null
Nik-SCUM SCUM SCUM! Lurking at the beginning, then saying "oh...well...I just don't know what to post..." Ha! Pure trickery! Nik, who are your scum partners?  :P

Hello conf!town, no way scum jokes about themselves like that.

Man, I wouldn't have thought to suspect Nik's joke until you posted this.  If this were true then it would be a great defense for scum, so it wouldn't be true. 

It almost makes me think you said this as an extremely subtle way to get people to suspect Nik.

No honestly, that's too much overthinking for scum. When scum goes to post they think I shouldn't say that, they do not want to stand out for any reason, a joke like that could bring unwanted suspicion.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 29, 2014, 02:09:51 pm
Shraeye recent attack on Adk still feels to me like he's trying to force lynches and make as many people look scummy as he can as opposed to lookin at interactions a simply trying to figure out if players are scummy or towny.
I'm interested in making exactly 2 people look scummy.  Becuase the scum team is 2.  And I'm trying to find them. 

So now I've picked 2.  And you're counter-attack is to say shraeye's trying to "make as many people look scummy as he can as opposed to lookin at interactions".

I literally found ADK scummy because of interactions.  The very interactions you just said I wasn't looking at.  You're spouting off generic ready-made reasons that I'm scummy and people should discredit me, and not even bothering to see if they're accurate.

Vote: mcmcsalot
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 29, 2014, 02:54:44 pm
Ok. I'm back. Wow, much stronger scum read on ADK and mcmc.

I am interested by the people who decided to jump on the bandwagon of my "conspiracy theory", which is basically Nik sheeping ADK, and then changing his mind. Although I do admit that the self-aware "that scum!" joke is pretty townie.

I think it is also important to look at the way my behavior was first described by ADK as a "conspiracy theory" which is then a term that everyone else decides to use--creating a connotation with my behavior because of the label used to describe it--something I view as a blatant scum tactic. (I think I may have also used it, but my point still stands).

Reads:

scummy: faust, ADK, mcmc (I would be happy to lynch one of these today, and I think we should)

null: witherweaver, delirious deleuze

town: Volt, Shraeye, Nik?,

I won't be able to post a ton today, as I have heavy homework demands, but I am going to

vote: mcmc

That is L-2 I think. Nik voted for me, then revoted mcmc, and Shraeye's vote was already on mcmc.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 29, 2014, 02:57:46 pm
Ok. I'm back. Wow, much stronger scum read on ADK and mcmc.

I am interested by the people who decided to jump on the bandwagon of my "conspiracy theory", which is basically Nik sheeping ADK, and then changing his mind. Although I do admit that the self-aware "that scum!" joke is pretty townie.

I think it is also important to look at the way my behavior was first described by ADK as a "conspiracy theory" which is then a term that everyone else decides to use--creating a connotation with my behavior because of the label used to describe it--something I view as a blatant scum tactic. (I think I may have also used it, but my point still stands).

Reads:

scummy: faust, ADK, mcmc (I would be happy to lynch one of these today, and I think we should)

null: witherweaver, delirious deleuze

town: Volt, Shraeye, Nik?,

I won't be able to post a ton today, as I have heavy homework demands, but I am going to

vote: mcmc

That is L-2 I think. Nik voted for me, then revoted mcmc, and Shraeye's vote was already on mcmc.

I'm pretty sure that's four votes against McMc, which would be L-1.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Teproc on March 29, 2014, 02:58:03 pm
Vote Count 1.8:

mcmcsalot (4): shraeye, Nik, Delirious Deleuze, Ichimaru Gin {L-1}
Ichimaru Gin (2): faust, A Drowned Kernel
shraeye (1): mcmcsalot
faust (1): Voltaire

Not Voting (1): Witherweaver

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 12:00 p.m. on April 1, 2014.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 29, 2014, 02:58:47 pm
In that case I will unvote
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 29, 2014, 03:06:48 pm
Hmm. I must have missed counting delerious deleuze. I appreciate the correction though, as it did change my decision.

I don't think I'm ready to put mcmc at L-1 yet. I would like to hear more from him, which we haven't really heard much.

What is everyone's opinion on mcmc. I already know those who are voting for him, but what about the others: faust, ADK, witherweaver and Volt?

The most important thing I think, is what information will be garnered from his lynch? What will it tell us about the interactions he had with other people (Shraeye, defending Nik, etc). And what will it tell us about the people on his wagon?

We still have what, 2+ days?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 29, 2014, 03:12:02 pm
If we were to lynch either mcmc or ADK today, I would much rather lynch ADK.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 29, 2014, 03:38:18 pm
Hmm. I must have missed counting delerious deleuze. I appreciate the correction though, as it did change my decision.

I don't think I'm ready to put mcmc at L-1 yet. I would like to hear more from him, which we haven't really heard much.

What is everyone's opinion on mcmc. I already know those who are voting for him, but what about the others: faust, ADK, witherweaver and Volt?

The most important thing I think, is what information will be garnered from his lynch? What will it tell us about the interactions he had with other people (Shraeye, defending Nik, etc). And what will it tell us about the people on his wagon?

We still have what, 2+ days?
What do you mean that we haven't heard much from mcmc?  There has been a lot that mcmc has said; you can go back and see the things he's been saying.  I don't see why this is the wrong time for L-1.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 29, 2014, 03:48:28 pm
Hmm. I must have missed counting delerious deleuze. I appreciate the correction though, as it did change my decision.

I don't think I'm ready to put mcmc at L-1 yet. I would like to hear more from him, which we haven't really heard much.

What is everyone's opinion on mcmc. I already know those who are voting for him, but what about the others: faust, ADK, witherweaver and Volt?

The most important thing I think, is what information will be garnered from his lynch? What will it tell us about the interactions he had with other people (Shraeye, defending Nik, etc). And what will it tell us about the people on his wagon?

We still have what, 2+ days?
What do you mean that we haven't heard much from mcmc?  There has been a lot that mcmc has said; you can go back and see the things he's been saying.  I don't see why this is the wrong time for L-1.

Ok. I unvoted because I needed a little more time to consider things.

When I say we haven't heard a lot from mcmc, I mean him speaking in his own defense. For the last page or so, he's talked about other stuff, but I feel like he hasn't posted statements in his defense in a little while. But I see what you are saying.

Anyway, having done a more thorough reread, I would still prefer ADK I think, but I don't think that's going to happen. Mcmc is very scummy, and the large amount of interactions (many strong interactions) that he has had should give us a lot of information after his flip. Particularly about Shraeye.

back to vote: mcmc
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 29, 2014, 03:48:42 pm
And this is L-1
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 29, 2014, 03:52:39 pm
1. Nik - I get a  pretty bored townie read on him. Not a lot to comment on because he's been fairly inactive.
2. Witherweaver - I thought his questions where suspicious at first, but I'm getting a townie read on him now.
3. Delirious Deleuze - Definitely a town.
4. Ichimaru Gin - I think the case against me wasn't artificial, but that I was acting odd (because it was my first real post) and I think gin's response was genuine. I'm leaning townie.
5. mcmcsalot - I still feel very scummy here. I've posted above why. I still feel he's not really being responsive to anything we said about him eariler, or maybe it's just that I don't read his responses as true. I'm really leaning with Shraeye here. On top of that, Shraeye's form of questioning is made to force people to answer things, even if the questions aren't right. There answers give a lot away. It'd make sense that scum would start accusing the questioning shraeye to try to get him mislynched and then avoiding being discovered by shraeye's questions. I feel very scummy coming from MCMC, which is why my votes on him.
6. shraeye  - As above, I feel his questioning method is very townie and trying to get scum to reveal themselves through answers. I don't feel anything he did was really that scummy.
7. faust - null
8. Voltaire- null
9. ADK - I've noticed something weird, or at least I think I did. I've looked over his past posts, and his meta-paradigm or whatever usually is much more accusative or at the very least, he makes more new responses in other games.

In this game though, ADK has only been accusative when defending other players. He has never just argued someone is acting scummy, rather he sees someone else being accused of being scummy, defends them and while defending them says the other person is scummy. It happened when he defended me from Ichimaru Gin, it happened when Gin and I talked about the conspiracy. I think this behavior could be neutral (he really is trying to be safe and defend people) or maybe he's trying a new meta this game, but I definitely think it's suspicious and feels scummy to me.

In all,

Scummy: MCMC
Possible Scum: ADK, Ichimaru Gin,
Null: Faust, Voltaire
Townie: WW, DeDe, Nik, Shraeye

PPE 3: I don't agree that ADK is more scummy than MCMC but he's definitely fishy. Then again, I don't have a very large meta-knowledge here
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 29, 2014, 04:11:53 pm
Okay, then, suppose we lynch McMc and it's revealed he's town.

How do we react to that?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 29, 2014, 04:17:17 pm
Okay, then, suppose we lynch McMc and it's revealed he's town.

How do we react to that?

I don't know if I'm the best person to answer this question, but generally town lynches town a fair amount--especially on earlier days.

Those on his wagon aren't inherently scummy if he flips town, but certain circumstances can make people look scummy. Such as joining the wagon late, voting without any real reasons--that sort of thing.

Even though town loses a member, it does two things: it decreases the size of the lynch pool, and it also gives us information because we can now analyze with the assurance of knowing his flip.

e.g. "now that we know that mcmc was town, it makes x look scummy because of something".

And similar information if he is scum. We can look at those who ignored his wagon, or joined it only when it looked inevitable.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 29, 2014, 04:24:04 pm
Okay, then, suppose we lynch McMc and it's revealed he's town.

How do we react to that?

I don't know if I'm the best person to answer this question, but generally town lynches town a fair amount--especially on earlier days.

Those on his wagon aren't inherently scummy if he flips town, but certain circumstances can make people look scummy. Such as joining the wagon late, voting without any real reasons--that sort of thing.

Even though town loses a member, it does two things: it decreases the size of the lynch pool, and it also gives us information because we can now analyze with the assurance of knowing his flip.

e.g. "now that we know that mcmc was town, it makes x look scummy because of something".

And similar information if he is scum. We can look at those who ignored his wagon, or joined it only when it looked inevitable.

Actually joining the wagon late is more scummy if mcmc flips scum, not town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 29, 2014, 04:30:06 pm
Okay, then, suppose we lynch McMc and it's revealed he's town.

How do we react to that?

I don't know if I'm the best person to answer this question, but generally town lynches town a fair amount--especially on earlier days.

Those on his wagon aren't inherently scummy if he flips town, but certain circumstances can make people look scummy. Such as joining the wagon late, voting without any real reasons--that sort of thing.

Even though town loses a member, it does two things: it decreases the size of the lynch pool, and it also gives us information because we can now analyze with the assurance of knowing his flip.

e.g. "now that we know that mcmc was town, it makes x look scummy because of something".

And similar information if he is scum. We can look at those who ignored his wagon, or joined it only when it looked inevitable.

Right, so I mean in this particular case.  Let's pretend I vote against him, he gets lynched and turns out to be town.  What would that make you think about everyone right now?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 29, 2014, 04:36:56 pm
Okay, then, suppose we lynch McMc and it's revealed he's town.

How do we react to that?

I don't know if I'm the best person to answer this question, but generally town lynches town a fair amount--especially on earlier days.

Those on his wagon aren't inherently scummy if he flips town, but certain circumstances can make people look scummy. Such as joining the wagon late, voting without any real reasons--that sort of thing.

Even though town loses a member, it does two things: it decreases the size of the lynch pool, and it also gives us information because we can now analyze with the assurance of knowing his flip.

e.g. "now that we know that mcmc was town, it makes x look scummy because of something".

And similar information if he is scum. We can look at those who ignored his wagon, or joined it only when it looked inevitable.

Right, so I mean in this particular case.  Let's pretend I vote against him, he gets lynched and turns out to be town.  What would that make you think about everyone right now?

Well if you hammered right now without giving him a chance to claim or anything, people would find it really scummy.

If, however, you hammered him after he had a chance to claim and he didn't claim PR and you still thought he was scum, and then he flipped town, people probably wouldn't find you scummy (I at least wouldn't). Like I said, town accidentally lynches town a lot.

I would find Shraeye maybe a little scummier. Probably a little stronger town read on Nik. Perhaps less of a scum-read on ADK since he so far hasn't really supported what could be a great mislynch. And not much of a changed opinion on everyone else.

So once mcmc has a chance to claim, then you're probably free to hammer if you want.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 29, 2014, 04:39:33 pm
Okay, then, suppose we lynch McMc and it's revealed he's town.

How do we react to that?

If mcmc is scum, then ADK deserves a good hard look.  I'm not sure he's at the auto-lynch level of obvious partner that I've seen before.  But he's very high.  If he's town, people need to be very careful of the background characters who opposed the lynch.  You'd be surprised how many scum are those who say "no...don't do it...." about a mislynch, but not seriously try to slow down the lynch or change it.  That is my favorite card to play as scum, because Day2 you can come out loudly against the people on the mislynch wagon and get a lot of traction/credit for it. faust fits this description 100%.

Definitely have a read through day 1 with the knowledge of any flips gained.  It's very helpful to know that a person was definitely scum, or definitely town.  I try to point out connections between players whenever possible, because I expect to typically be an early night-kill.  I used to keep those and try to wait for even more evidence before surprising scum later, but nothing frustrates like going to the grave with an unspoken idea.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 29, 2014, 04:49:32 pm
Okay, then, suppose we lynch McMc and it's revealed he's town.

How do we react to that?

I don't know if I'm the best person to answer this question, but generally town lynches town a fair amount--especially on earlier days.

Those on his wagon aren't inherently scummy if he flips town, but certain circumstances can make people look scummy. Such as joining the wagon late, voting without any real reasons--that sort of thing.

Even though town loses a member, it does two things: it decreases the size of the lynch pool, and it also gives us information because we can now analyze with the assurance of knowing his flip.

e.g. "now that we know that mcmc was town, it makes x look scummy because of something".

And similar information if he is scum. We can look at those who ignored his wagon, or joined it only when it looked inevitable.

Right, so I mean in this particular case.  Let's pretend I vote against him, he gets lynched and turns out to be town.  What would that make you think about everyone right now?

Well if you hammered right now without giving him a chance to claim or anything, people would find it really scummy.

If, however, you hammered him after he had a chance to claim and he didn't claim PR and you still thought he was scum, and then he flipped town, people probably wouldn't find you scummy (I at least wouldn't). Like I said, town accidentally lynches town a lot.

I would find Shraeye maybe a little scummier. Probably a little stronger town read on Nik. Perhaps less of a scum-read on ADK since he so far hasn't really supported what could be a great mislynch. And not much of a changed opinion on everyone else.

So once mcmc has a chance to claim, then you're probably free to hammer if you want.

I wasn't saying I wanted to hammer, I was just getting us in a hypothetical from which we could analyze. 

I agree that if this is a mislynch, then scum could get on it pretty easily without raising much suspicion.  Enough people have expressed distrust towards McMc that it's pretty safe to jump on.  So does that mean there would be scum on it?  For me it would make Shraeye more suspect, and you moreso.

But more what I wanted to get a feel of is: if McMc is a mislynch, will that give us good information for the future?   If so, we can be less wary about making a mistake.  If not, maybe it's worth looking elsewhere. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 29, 2014, 05:01:18 pm
Okay, then, suppose we lynch McMc and it's revealed he's town.

How do we react to that?

I don't know if I'm the best person to answer this question, but generally town lynches town a fair amount--especially on earlier days.

Those on his wagon aren't inherently scummy if he flips town, but certain circumstances can make people look scummy. Such as joining the wagon late, voting without any real reasons--that sort of thing.

Even though town loses a member, it does two things: it decreases the size of the lynch pool, and it also gives us information because we can now analyze with the assurance of knowing his flip.

e.g. "now that we know that mcmc was town, it makes x look scummy because of something".

And similar information if he is scum. We can look at those who ignored his wagon, or joined it only when it looked inevitable.

Right, so I mean in this particular case.  Let's pretend I vote against him, he gets lynched and turns out to be town.  What would that make you think about everyone right now?

Well if you hammered right now without giving him a chance to claim or anything, people would find it really scummy.

If, however, you hammered him after he had a chance to claim and he didn't claim PR and you still thought he was scum, and then he flipped town, people probably wouldn't find you scummy (I at least wouldn't). Like I said, town accidentally lynches town a lot.

I would find Shraeye maybe a little scummier. Probably a little stronger town read on Nik. Perhaps less of a scum-read on ADK since he so far hasn't really supported what could be a great mislynch. And not much of a changed opinion on everyone else.

So once mcmc has a chance to claim, then you're probably free to hammer if you want.

I wasn't saying I wanted to hammer, I was just getting us in a hypothetical from which we could analyze. 

I agree that if this is a mislynch, then scum could get on it pretty easily without raising much suspicion.  Enough people have expressed distrust towards McMc that it's pretty safe to jump on.  So does that mean there would be scum on it?  For me it would make Shraeye more suspect, and you moreso.

But more what I wanted to get a feel of is: if McMc is a mislynch, will that give us good information for the future?   If so, we can be less wary about making a mistake.  If not, maybe it's worth looking elsewhere.

Well I did join the wagon later, which depending on whether you think scum would play the opposite of what people think, or take it one negation back, would make me look scummy or town--or if you think the latter.

e.g.

Blatant scum would vote for town!mcmc for little to no reason and probably be on the wagon early

smarter scum would perhaps hold off (like me), or express some doubts

(Shraeye's thoughts on faust), even smarter scum would mildly oppose the wagon while doing nothing to stop it. And then use this to get themselves town credit after the flip

There is definitely a WIFOM element to these arguments though. In that it all depends on how smart you think scum is, and how smart you think scum thinks that you are.

To answer your other question though, I think mcmc's flip would give us a lot of useful information even if it is a mislynch. He has had a lot of interactions with Shraeye, and I think most people have at least given some thoughts on him. But even then, we can analyze people for their lack of comments on mcmc as well.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 29, 2014, 05:08:05 pm
Just so everyone knows. I real life prodded ADK but he's at work until later, so he might be a few hours to reply.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 29, 2014, 06:10:11 pm
I want mcmc to defend himself against this post by shraeye. I am leaning towards lynching mcmc now.

I literally found ADK scummy because of interactions.  The very interactions you just said I wasn't looking at.  You're spouting off generic ready-made reasons that I'm scummy and people should discredit me, and not even bothering to see if they're accurate.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 29, 2014, 06:10:54 pm
I now have a pretty big town read on WW and Nik, and I am leaning town on shraeye.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 29, 2014, 06:13:18 pm
I now have a pretty big town read on WW and Nik, and I am leaning town on shraeye.

So you have town reads on: Shraeye, Nik, ww, and mcmc?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 29, 2014, 06:13:54 pm
I now have a pretty big town read on WW and Nik, and I am leaning town on shraeye.

So you have town reads on: Shraeye, Nik, ww, and mcmc?

Never mind I missed this

I am leaning towards lynching mcmc now.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 29, 2014, 06:15:55 pm
I want mcmc to defend himself against this post by shraeye. I am leaning towards lynching mcmc now.

I literally found ADK scummy because of interactions.  The very interactions you just said I wasn't looking at.  You're spouting off generic ready-made reasons that I'm scummy and people should discredit me, and not even bothering to see if they're accurate.

Don't you want him to claim?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 29, 2014, 06:16:10 pm
I now have a pretty big town read on WW and Nik, and I am leaning town on shraeye.

So you have town reads on: Shraeye, Nik, ww, and mcmc?

I see you saw it, but to explain why I now feel bad about mcmc, the post I quoted by shraeye is a big problem, and independently I am finding shraeye more likely to be town (he brought up that he is frequently nightkilled - why tell that to newbies who will then grow suspicious as he keeps living, if he's scum? WIFOM and all that, but it doesn't seem like something you need to do).

I'm not 100% convinced mcmc is scum, I still want to hear from him, and there are other people I'd be happy lynching, but mcmc is now a good lynch in my book.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 29, 2014, 06:17:01 pm
I want mcmc to defend himself against this post by shraeye. I am leaning towards lynching mcmc now.

I literally found ADK scummy because of interactions.  The very interactions you just said I wasn't looking at.  You're spouting off generic ready-made reasons that I'm scummy and people should discredit me, and not even bothering to see if they're accurate.

Don't you want him to claim?

Yes, I want him to claim. My post was unclear - by "now", I mean, I now think he is scum whereas earlier I thought he was town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on March 29, 2014, 10:37:11 pm
So I just did my first massive re-read of the thread, and I've come away with some thoughts.

First, shraeye and mc: I don't think that I'm comfortable lynching either of them today. Looking back, I think that mc's characteristic of shraeye's question as a "trap", which I initially bought into, is incorrect. shraeye asks a lot of questions, and when he gets satisfactory answers, he accepts (or at least stops talking about them, which I assume is him accepting them). If he was scum looking to trap someone, I think that he would have been a lot quicker to jump on an answer and paint it as scummy for a mislynch.

That said, I think the case on mc is overblown. What the whole case comes down to is, he changed his mind. People change their minds. I think town is more likely to change their minds than scum is, since scum knows what alignment everyone really is and has to keep track of their artificially constructed reads. Yes, he acted abrasively towards shraeye, but I think that's well within his personality.

A couple of people who came off looking slightly scummier than I remembered are Ichi and DeDe, who seem to get very defensive when any suspicion floats their way. Yes, it's to be expected from newbies, but emotion is something that scum relies on, and a newbie scum is just as likely to react emotionally as newbie town.

There's something that DeDe brought up, which is my behavior in previous mafia games. The very first mafia game I played was Super Mario Bros (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9999.0), where mafia won due to a very persuasive and active scum player talking town into a series of mislynches. The whole thing left me very frightened, possibly unreasonably so, of early game mislynches.

All that said, the player who came across scummiest to me on my reread was Voltaire. He puts on a very helpful and reasonable persona, all while hanging back and giving pretty ambivalent reads on everyone. It's only once a number of people are on the mc wagon that he starts backing it up. shraeye's scum read on mc was based on his own thinking, which makes me more inclined to believe that he's mistaken town, while Volt is pushing the wagon long after it's gotten started, and is still hedging his bets with his "I'm not sure he's scum but I'll lynch him anyway."

Vote: Voltaire
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 29, 2014, 10:42:24 pm
ADK, I don't know the alignment of anyone, and I don't have strong reads right now. It is better that I be honest than feign certainty. You know who is certain? Scum. They already know all the alignments.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 30, 2014, 01:53:45 am
Oh goodness, Adk thank you so much for understanding.

Voltaire I dot really know how to "defend" shraeye's most recent post.

I'm town and I have my feelings and shraeye argues/disagrees with everything I say. Everyone seems to believe him so just lynch me. I'm a tv but I'm so done with just getting suspected and lynched every god damn game because I'm always a good lunch even when your bt sure I'm scum. Point is I'm a shitty lynch and I'll keep being one. Lynch shraeye, I think he's scum for how furiously he's tried to get me lynched, a towny isn't so set in their ways.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 30, 2014, 02:01:50 am
Oh goodness, Adk thank you so much for understanding.

Voltaire I dot really know how to "defend" shraeye's most recent post.

I'm town and I have my feelings and shraeye argues/disagrees with everything I say. Everyone seems to believe him so just lynch me. I'm a tv but I'm so done with just getting suspected and lynched every god damn game because I'm always a good lunch even when your bt sure I'm scum. Point is I'm a shitty lynch and I'll keep being one. Lynch shraeye, I think he's scum for how furiously he's tried to get me lynched, a towny isn't so set in their ways.

Now I really don't know what to think. I hear genuine frustration here. And from what I've heard of your meta, this completely makes sense if you get mislynched a lot.

Is this the way that scum would respond? I hear really frustrated town.

unvote

Although I still find ADK scummy.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on March 30, 2014, 07:23:30 am
Ahh! I don't know what to do! Mcmcsalot did indeed defend himself, but he was a bit of a martyr, or maybe he was just frustrated, or maybe the whole thing is a ploy, but now it feels like he is scummier now, except I feel actual frustration in his post, and this definitely needs a semicolon right now but who cares?
I guess I'll Unvote?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 30, 2014, 02:54:07 pm
Where's the third unvote? :P
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Teproc on March 30, 2014, 03:13:46 pm
Vote Count 1.9:

mcmcsalot (2): shraeye, Delirious Deleuze
Ichimaru Gin (1): faust
shraeye (1): mcmcsalot
faust (1): Voltaire
Voltaire (1): A Drowned Kernel

Not Voting (3): Witherweaver, Ichimaru Gin, Nik

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 12:00 p.m. on April 1, 2014 (in ~45 hours).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 30, 2014, 03:27:17 pm
So I'm thinking it may not be a great idea to push more people to close to lynching and get them to claim.

We can be sure that McMc isn't cop or doctor, because he would have claimed if he was.  If he is vanilla town, that cuts out 3 candidates (2 scum and McMc) for the scum team. That leaves them with 6 people who they know to contain two power roles.  If we lynch McMc, then scum has a 33% chance of killing a power role tonight (slightly less because the doctor can protect someone, but the doctor has a lot less information than the scum team does). 

Now if we bring someone else to claiming (call this person Claim2), and they claim vanilla town, then scum team knows the two power roles are in a set of five people. If we lynch that person, and he is vanilla town, then scum has a 40% chance of hitting a power role.

If we bring someone to claim and they claim doctor or cop, then I think this is worse for us.  First, we will choose to lynch someone else, and that person will claim.  So now scum has three additional pieces of information: McMc is vanilla town, Claim2 is power role, and Claim3 is whatever.  Suppose Claim3 claims vanilla town and we lynch him.  Then scum knows a power role is in Claim2 and that McMc and Claim3 are vanilla.  If Claim2 is doctor, then (I think) he cannot protect himself so he dies tonight.  If Claim2 is cop, then doctor will protect cop tonight, and scum has a 25% chance (one in four) of targeting the doctor out of the remaining townies.  Then cop can easily die tomorrow night because doctor can only protect odd nights.  So we gain nothing from cop.

If Claim3 were a power role, then scum knows everything.. they target doctor tonight (again assuming he can't protect himself) and cop tomorrow night.  We get nothing from both roles.  This would be worse case scenario, I think.

So I don't know.. it seems that getting people to claim on day 1 is dangerous for us.  Even if they're not power roles, it narrows the field down for the scum team, and they already have a pretty small field from which to choose.   

Of course if Claim2 is mafia, then that is obviously great for us.  So I think if we choose to go away from McMc we better be pretty sure about it. 

Thoughts?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 30, 2014, 04:37:00 pm
yea sorry my typing was poor I am a vt(vanilla townie) not a tv
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 30, 2014, 05:07:58 pm
yea sorry my typing was poor I am a vt(vanilla townie) not a tv

I don't think anyone thought you were a transvestite :P
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 30, 2014, 05:09:42 pm
So mcmc's claiming vt. What does everyone make of this?

The deadline is coming up pretty soon. And a lot of people haven't posted anything since mcmc's claim.

He's advocating a Shraeye lynch, but I don't really see that happening.

I'm going to vote: ADK for now. As he was my other scum read. Also, his last post just looks like a wild, completely screwing any existing wagons gambit. He may be right on mcmc, but I really don't see why he voted for Voltaire. He's voting him for being "too helpful" and "noncommital", but really there hasn't been a lot of content or any damning evidence, so I am more wary of people with super strong reads.

PPE: ww

 ???
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on March 30, 2014, 05:15:04 pm
I'm going to Vote:Faust. He has been lurking and his posts have little or no content.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 30, 2014, 05:38:04 pm
He puts on a very helpful and reasonable persona, all while hanging back and giving pretty ambivalent reads on everyone. It's only once a number of people are on the mc wagon that he starts backing it up...........Volt is pushing the wagon long after it's gotten started, and is still hedging his bets with his "I'm not sure he's scum but I'll lynch him anyway."
Vote: Voltaire

I really don't think volt is being ambivalent. He clearly says he thinks MCMC is scum, even if it's not 100%. And given that people were just discussing why it's good to lynch even if it's   mislynch a few posts before, how he followed up saying he wasn't a hundred percent makes a lot of sense.

I now have a pretty big town read on WW and Nik, and I am leaning town on shraeye.

So you have town reads on: Shraeye, Nik, ww, and mcmc?

I see you saw it, but to explain why I now feel bad about mcmc, the post I quoted by shraeye is a big problem, and independently I am finding shraeye more likely to be town (he brought up that he is frequently nightkilled - why tell that to newbies who will then grow suspicious as he keeps living, if he's scum? WIFOM and all that, but it doesn't seem like something you need to do).

I'm not 100% convinced mcmc is scum, I still want to hear from him, and there are other people I'd be happy lynching, but mcmc is now a good lynch in my book.

What I think is more surprising is that ADK, throughout this entire game, keeps only attacking people while defending people. This seems like a good ploy for scum too. He is able to defend a player, say "no they're not being scummy!" While flipping it around and attacking the person who is was attacking first. It allows hi to seem good to the town, while not being too aggressive, and he still gets to create confusion and mislynch.

I brought up his meta history. He shows another game he has played and said he's now just paranoid, but I don't think that really follows. If he was really paranoid of early mislynch es, he wouldn't be making these obviously faulty cases against people (like accusing Ichimaru gin of being too generic when he attacked me, accusing me of making a conspiracy (and them realizing he didn't read carefully enough and attacking Ichimaru gin), and now he's protecting MCMC and switching his vote to a very unstable case against Voltaire.)

I think he's very scummy, maybe even more than MCMC.

vote: ADK
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 30, 2014, 09:23:28 pm
A-ok with a vote: ADK. I just drove 6 hours so I'm not up for digging deep at this point, can reply/follow in more detail tomorrow.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 30, 2014, 10:49:24 pm
So I'm thinking it may not be a great idea to push more people to close to lynching and get them to claim.

We can be sure that McMc isn't cop or doctor, because he would have claimed if he was.  If he is vanilla town, that cuts out 3 candidates (2 scum and McMc) for the scum team. That leaves them with 6 people who they know to contain two power roles.  If we lynch McMc, then scum has a 33% chance of killing a power role tonight (slightly less because the doctor can protect someone, but the doctor has a lot less information than the scum team does). 

Now if we bring someone else to claiming (call this person Claim2), and they claim vanilla town, then scum team knows the two power roles are in a set of five people. If we lynch that person, and he is vanilla town, then scum has a 40% chance of hitting a power role.

If we bring someone to claim and they claim doctor or cop, then I think this is worse for us.  First, we will choose to lynch someone else, and that person will claim.  So now scum has three additional pieces of information: McMc is vanilla town, Claim2 is power role, and Claim3 is whatever.  Suppose Claim3 claims vanilla town and we lynch him.  Then scum knows a power role is in Claim2 and that McMc and Claim3 are vanilla.  If Claim2 is doctor, then (I think) he cannot protect himself so he dies tonight.  If Claim2 is cop, then doctor will protect cop tonight, and scum has a 25% chance (one in four) of targeting the doctor out of the remaining townies.  Then cop can easily die tomorrow night because doctor can only protect odd nights.  So we gain nothing from cop.

If Claim3 were a power role, then scum knows everything.. they target doctor tonight (again assuming he can't protect himself) and cop tomorrow night.  We get nothing from both roles.  This would be worse case scenario, I think.

So I don't know.. it seems that getting people to claim on day 1 is dangerous for us.  Even if they're not power roles, it narrows the field down for the scum team, and they already have a pretty small field from which to choose.   

Of course if Claim2 is mafia, then that is obviously great for us.  So I think if we choose to go away from McMc we better be pretty sure about it. 

Thoughts?
Stop.  This is the right idea.  Don't go run up somebody else because mcmc sounded frustrated and claimed VT.  caught scum also has a very legitimate reason to sound frustrated.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 30, 2014, 10:54:16 pm
I believe mcmc's frustration, though. If another person claims today, we lynch either them or mcmc. If we run up the cop, sorry mcmc, you're the lynch, and so forth (another VT claim, we decide between them). WW has the right of it. WW is my biggest town read right now.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 30, 2014, 10:55:23 pm
shraeye, would you be fine lynching ADK instead?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 30, 2014, 10:57:49 pm
I will reread tomorow and see if i think adk/faust are a good lynch.

does no one think shaeye is scummy for how persistent in trying to get me lynched he is?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 30, 2014, 10:59:08 pm
I need to read. I'd much rather lynch mcmc; i'm 100% positive of his scuminess.  He's been attacking me with nothing more than hot-button generic-scummy things that I'm not actually doing at all.  His position on me has jumped back and forth and also not been in line with any of the actual evidence.  He repeatedly refuses to defend or back up his statements that I've already pointed out are contradictory, instead resorting to ad hominem attacks and blatant AtE. 

His frustration could absolutely be legitimate.  No doubt.  But I'm sure that he is frustrated scum.  If we turn somewhere else and run up the doctor or the cop, we are screwing ourselves.  Hard.  There is no reason to do that in the face of such an overwhelming reason to lynch mcmc.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 30, 2014, 11:01:32 pm
I need to read. I'd much rather lynch mcmc; i'm 100% positive of his scuminess.  He's been attacking me with nothing more than hot-button generic-scummy things that I'm not actually doing at all.  His position on me has jumped back and forth and also not been in line with any of the actual evidence.  He repeatedly refuses to defend or back up his statements that I've already pointed out are contradictory, instead resorting to ad hominem attacks and blatant AtE. 

His frustration could absolutely be legitimate.  No doubt.  But I'm sure that he is frustrated scum.  If we turn somewhere else and run up the doctor or the cop, we are screwing ourselves.  Hard.  There is no reason to do that in the face of such an overwhelming reason to lynch mcmc.

Well I must say, after ww's analysis and the fact that mcmc claimed vt--it's not like we have much to lose. Which we do if we happen to run up the cop or doctor, then yes--we're pretty screwed.

But I do interpret his frustration as townie, and you are pushing his lynch pretty hard. . .I'm not exactly sure what to think.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 30, 2014, 11:02:55 pm
Shraeye recent attack on Adk still feels to me like he's trying to force lynches and make as many people look scummy as he can as opposed to lookin at interactions a simply trying to figure out if players are scummy or towny.

I will reread tomorow and see if i think adk/faust are a good lynch.

does no one think shaeye is scummy for how persistent in trying to get me lynched he is?
Case in point.  Mcmc is still not defending a single thing.  However he is appealing to the fact that my bullheadedness in his lynch is scummy.  Even though his argument yesterday was that I was trying to make as many people as possible be scummy.  Those two thoughts that he is ascribing to me are incongruous. 

I'm bullheaded.  I'm persistent.  That's not scummy, it's who shraeye is.  It does not change the fact that I'm right.  And I'm right.  As I said to Robz before...I'm ON in terms of mafia reads.  I believe fully in this lynch.  I want mcmc's head.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 30, 2014, 11:04:55 pm
does no one think shaeye is scummy for how persistent in trying to get me lynched he is?

Yes and no. Yes because, well, it definitely seems that way.
No, because, well, why in the world would scum go all-in on a lynch like that?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 30, 2014, 11:07:01 pm
OK, I'm back to shraeye is probably town. So...yeah, let's lynch mcmc.

vote: mcmc
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 30, 2014, 11:08:41 pm
Shraeye recent attack on Adk still feels to me like he's trying to force lynches and make as many people look scummy as he can as opposed to lookin at interactions a simply trying to figure out if players are scummy or towny.

I will reread tomorow and see if i think adk/faust are a good lynch.

does no one think shaeye is scummy for how persistent in trying to get me lynched he is?
Case in point.  Mcmc is still not defending a single thing.  However he is appealing to the fact that my bullheadedness in his lynch is scummy.  Even though his argument yesterday was that I was trying to make as many people as possible be scummy.  Those two thoughts that he is ascribing to me are incongruous. 

I'm bullheaded.  I'm persistent.  That's not scummy, it's who shraeye is.  It does not change the fact that I'm right.  And I'm right.  As I said to Robz before...I'm ON in terms of mafia reads.  I believe fully in this lynch.  I want mcmc's head.

Well in that case. . .
Those would be very strong statements for scum to make. Statements that I don't think scum would make. Town read on Shraeye. I'm not as sold on mcmc as you (I think ADK, or even faust to a lesser degree) would also be good lynches today.

I guess what I'm concerned about is if you are both town. In my first game, Ash was so, so sure that faust was scum, and he wasn't. So I guess the worst possible outcome that I can see is both you and mcmc are town. In which case this is just a huge distraction that will probably end in both your deaths.

However, although I still see mcmc's frustration as townie (I think). I can't deny that his lynch will give us a ton of information.

PPE: 2
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 30, 2014, 11:12:22 pm
Ichi strikes me as scum if shraeye/mcmc/adk are all town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 30, 2014, 11:22:30 pm
Ichi strikes me as scum if shraeye/mcmc/adk are all town.

I must say there's a part of me that sees you as town, simply because you are so great at playing town. However, that's not a logical assumption on my part.

If what you said were the case that would leave. (random order)

Ichimaru Gin
Wandering Winder
Delerious Deleuze
Voltaire
Nik
faust

So who would my scum partner be? faust?
Also, I can understand if this is just an important to get your reads down now if you happen to get killed tonight (something I remember Shraeye talking about earlier).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 30, 2014, 11:29:16 pm
Yep, that's why I'm doing it. Especially D1, this game is all about if/then statements. If all those players are town, through interactions I find you much scummier than most players. And yes, of the players left, DD, Nik, or faust could all be your partners. Yes, faust especially. But I don't necessarily think that's the likeliest scenario. At this point I'm 100% willing to sheep shraeye, hence my return to mcmc.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 30, 2014, 11:32:03 pm
Well I don't see any other lynch happening than mcmc. vote: mcmc

And that's L-2
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Teproc on March 31, 2014, 02:17:01 am
Vote Count 1.10:

mcmcsalot (3): shraeye, Voltaire, Ichimaru Gin
A Drowned Kernel (1) : Delirious Deleuze
faust (1): Nik
Ichimaru Gin (1): faust
shraeye (1): mcmcsalot
Voltaire (1): A Drowned Kernel

Not Voting (1): Witherweaver

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 12:00 p.m. on April 1, 2014 (in ~34 hours).

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on March 31, 2014, 06:49:34 am
After reading Shraeye's anylasis, I'm gonna Unvote. Vote: Mcmcsalot.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 31, 2014, 07:02:00 am
I still like my vote on Ichimaru. His case on DeDe was constructed, and now he brings up a conspiracy theory. I find it quite unlikely that mcmc and shraeye are scum together, and even if they are, I wouldn't think they staged this fight.

Why does that make him scummy? Town is paranoid everyone is scum. I see nothing suspicious about him seeing the fight as scum v scum. In fact, it gave me a town read on him.

I do think you're scummy faust - nice try. I think you're doing a good job of not getting a terrible amount of pressure while still being present on D1, a classic scum position.

Seeing the fight as scum vs scum gives Ichimaru a reason to vote for either of them, which he may want if both are town and exposing themselves like this.

Tell me, how did I manage to not get pressure? I am trying to contribute, yes. It is not my fault that noone has pressured me yet. Should I act scummy to get some pressure so that I don't look scummy? That just makes no sense.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 31, 2014, 07:07:47 am
Ok. I'm back. Wow, much stronger scum read on ADK and mcmc.

I am interested by the people who decided to jump on the bandwagon of my "conspiracy theory", which is basically Nik sheeping ADK, and then changing his mind. Although I do admit that the self-aware "that scum!" joke is pretty townie.

I think it is also important to look at the way my behavior was first described by ADK as a "conspiracy theory" which is then a term that everyone else decides to use--creating a connotation with my behavior because of the label used to describe it--something I view as a blatant scum tactic. (I think I may have also used it, but my point still stands).

Reads:

scummy: faust, ADK, mcmc (I would be happy to lynch one of these today, and I think we should)

null: witherweaver, delirious deleuze

town: Volt, Shraeye, Nik?,

I won't be able to post a ton today, as I have heavy homework demands, but I am going to

vote: mcmc

That is L-2 I think. Nik voted for me, then revoted mcmc, and Shraeye's vote was already on mcmc.

Much OMGUS in this post, I think. I would like for you to specify why you have the reads you state here (if you did this already, sorry; I'm not yet finished rereading).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 31, 2014, 07:09:13 am
In that case I will unvote

The way Ichi goes back and forth with putting mcmc at L-1 is most interesting.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 31, 2014, 07:11:46 am
Okay, then, suppose we lynch McMc and it's revealed he's town.

How do we react to that?

What does this post accomplish? Is this an attempt to manipulate us into making the assumption that mcmc is town? Why did you ask that question?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on March 31, 2014, 07:12:46 am
In that case I will unvote

The way Ichi goes back and forth with putting mcmc at L-1 is most interesting.

Umm...I'm sorry, what does L-1 mean? Also, what does Ichi have to do with me unvoting?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 31, 2014, 07:15:36 am
Okay, then, suppose we lynch McMc and it's revealed he's town.

How do we react to that?

If mcmc is scum, then ADK deserves a good hard look.  I'm not sure he's at the auto-lynch level of obvious partner that I've seen before.  But he's very high.  If he's town, people need to be very careful of the background characters who opposed the lynch.  You'd be surprised how many scum are those who say "no...don't do it...." about a mislynch, but not seriously try to slow down the lynch or change it.  That is my favorite card to play as scum, because Day2 you can come out loudly against the people on the mislynch wagon and get a lot of traction/credit for it. faust fits this description 100%.

Definitely have a read through day 1 with the knowledge of any flips gained.  It's very helpful to know that a person was definitely scum, or definitely town.  I try to point out connections between players whenever possible, because I expect to typically be an early night-kill.  I used to keep those and try to wait for even more evidence before surprising scum later, but nothing frustrates like going to the grave with an unspoken idea.

I have never argued against an mcmc lynch. I'm not sure yet what to do with him at L-1, but you seem to have a false perception of what I've been doing here.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 31, 2014, 07:21:05 am
So I just did my first massive re-read of the thread, and I've come away with some thoughts.

First, shraeye and mc: I don't think that I'm comfortable lynching either of them today. Looking back, I think that mc's characteristic of shraeye's question as a "trap", which I initially bought into, is incorrect. shraeye asks a lot of questions, and when he gets satisfactory answers, he accepts (or at least stops talking about them, which I assume is him accepting them). If he was scum looking to trap someone, I think that he would have been a lot quicker to jump on an answer and paint it as scummy for a mislynch.

That said, I think the case on mc is overblown. What the whole case comes down to is, he changed his mind. People change their minds. I think town is more likely to change their minds than scum is, since scum knows what alignment everyone really is and has to keep track of their artificially constructed reads. Yes, he acted abrasively towards shraeye, but I think that's well within his personality.

A couple of people who came off looking slightly scummier than I remembered are Ichi and DeDe, who seem to get very defensive when any suspicion floats their way. Yes, it's to be expected from newbies, but emotion is something that scum relies on, and a newbie scum is just as likely to react emotionally as newbie town.

There's something that DeDe brought up, which is my behavior in previous mafia games. The very first mafia game I played was Super Mario Bros (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9999.0), where mafia won due to a very persuasive and active scum player talking town into a series of mislynches. The whole thing left me very frightened, possibly unreasonably so, of early game mislynches.

All that said, the player who came across scummiest to me on my reread was Voltaire. He puts on a very helpful and reasonable persona, all while hanging back and giving pretty ambivalent reads on everyone. It's only once a number of people are on the mc wagon that he starts backing it up. shraeye's scum read on mc was based on his own thinking, which makes me more inclined to believe that he's mistaken town, while Volt is pushing the wagon long after it's gotten started, and is still hedging his bets with his "I'm not sure he's scum but I'll lynch him anyway."

Vote: Voltaire

I can't really put my finger on it, but this post leaves me with a scummy feeling on ADK. Maybe it's that I find people who try to get Voltaire lynched D1 suspicious. The self-meta argument is also weird and too self-conscious for my liking.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on March 31, 2014, 07:26:52 am
In that case I will unvote

The way Ichi goes back and forth with putting mcmc at L-1 is most interesting.

Umm...I'm sorry, what does L-1 mean? Also, what does Ichi have to do with me unvoting?
Ahh, sorry! I thought you wre talking about my unvoting (I'd said the same thing)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 31, 2014, 07:28:03 am
yea sorry my typing was poor I am a vt(vanilla townie) not a tv

Argh. VT claiming is not a good thing to do. Never. I'm tempted to vote mcmc just for this.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 31, 2014, 07:29:56 am
I'm going to Vote:Faust. He has been lurking and his posts have little or no content.

Funny. I was going to make a similar remark about you.

Well anyway, sorry for not being too active over the weekend. Note also that I'm in a different timezone than most players here, which makes participating harder. As to my posts having little content, can you give an example?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on March 31, 2014, 07:39:41 am
I'm going to Vote:Faust. He has been lurking and his posts have little or no content.

Funny. I was going to make a similar remark about you.

Well anyway, sorry for not being too active over the weekend. Note also that I'm in a different timezone than most players here, which makes participating harder. As to my posts having little content, can you give an example?
Looking back through the thread, you're right, I still think you're lurking; but your posts do have content, though they are short.
But I've un voted anyway...
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 31, 2014, 07:48:03 am
It is interesting how this doesn't feel like a newbie game at all. Good work, everyone!

After catching up, my reads now look like this:

Ichimaru - still scummy. All my previous points still hold, and he's done nothing to make himself look townie.
mcmc - scummy. The VT claim on top of everything else... let me state again why VT is a horrible claim for town to make: it accomplishes two things: 1) Scum knows who they don't need to lynch. 2) You will never be night killed. Scum loves an excuse for never being night killed. Town has no reason to give scum this information.
ADK - scummy. Mostly a feeling from his latest post. Also isn't very active or memorable, so he doesn't make a bad lynch

Nik - lurking, sheeping and slightly scummy for that. He's the only one here why acts like I would expect a newbie to act though, and this may well come from newbie!town.

Voltaire - null. He's pretty much his normal self, without any standout interactions that lead me to think either way about him. I do want to keep him alive today though.
Witherweaver - null. I don't really get why people find him particularly townie, but didn't see much scummy stuff either.

shraeye - slight town. I think he is making sense and putting strong reads out there and sticking to them. Scum is usually more afraid of such commitment.
DeDe - town. My strongest town read, actually. Posts seem sincere, good activity, not afraid of stating reads... it may be masterful newbie!scum play, but I don't think so.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 31, 2014, 07:50:04 am
Yeah, so I guess I'd like a lynch among Ichi/mcmc/ADK today. mcmc is already claimed and at L-1, so that makes him a good choice.

Intent to hammer mcmc.

I guess I'll give it some time for people to say what they need to say before the day ends.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 31, 2014, 07:52:15 am
Okay, then, suppose we lynch McMc and it's revealed he's town.

How do we react to that?

If mcmc is scum, then ADK deserves a good hard look.  I'm not sure he's at the auto-lynch level of obvious partner that I've seen before.  But he's very high.  If he's town, people need to be very careful of the background characters who opposed the lynch.  You'd be surprised how many scum are those who say "no...don't do it...." about a mislynch, but not seriously try to slow down the lynch or change it.  That is my favorite card to play as scum, because Day2 you can come out loudly against the people on the mislynch wagon and get a lot of traction/credit for it. faust fits this description 100%.

Definitely have a read through day 1 with the knowledge of any flips gained.  It's very helpful to know that a person was definitely scum, or definitely town.  I try to point out connections between players whenever possible, because I expect to typically be an early night-kill.  I used to keep those and try to wait for even more evidence before surprising scum later, but nothing frustrates like going to the grave with an unspoken idea.

I have never argued against an mcmc lynch. I'm not sure yet what to do with him at L-1, but you seem to have a false perception of what I've been doing here.
My point is exactly that you are not actually preventing a mcmc lynch, not actually arguing against it and trying to pull others off.  If mcmc flips town, you are the person who is in the best position to accuse people on the wagon, and appear to do it from a moral high ground.

I want to know what you think about mcmc, and saying that you're not sure yet is sorta weak.  Figure it out.  If it's a good lynch in your eyes, do it.  If it's a bad lynch, well then you'd better explain why.

PPE: I see you have committed on mcmc.  so a scummy guy is at L-1.....what you gonna do?

Double PPE: Hey, and you committed on doing something!  I do think that your process is fairly towny.  At every stage, i was trying to comment on your latest post, and you literally responded to my comment before I even had the chance to make it.  Impressive.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on March 31, 2014, 08:02:51 am
Again, what does L-1 mean?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 31, 2014, 08:18:48 am
Again, what does L-1 mean?
It means that somebody is 1 vote away from being locked in as the lynch.  As soon as somebody reaches 5 votes (in general, it is the smallest integer that is > half the townsize), the day is over, although a brief twilight-period may exist where the thread is still open, and we can still post.  But the lynch has been decided at that point.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 31, 2014, 08:49:03 am
Let me reiterate, shraeye is disagreeing with every single post I make no matter what. He's certain I'm scum(he's wrong) either he's scum or tunneled like an idiot removing any other play for day 1. Lynch him tomorow please.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 31, 2014, 09:01:57 am
Also I would aprreciate not being hammered for 45 more min I'll be helpful.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 31, 2014, 09:03:30 am
Let me reiterate, shraeye is disagreeing with every single post I make no matter what. He's certain I'm scum(he's wrong) either he's scum or tunneled like an idiot removing any other play for day 1. Lynch him tomorow please.
The problem is, your defense is terrible.  Just because I'm disagreeing with everything you're currently saying, doesn't mean that I would disagree no matter what you said.  You're just saying nonsensical stuff.

Right now you're trying to zing me for tunnelling on you.  Earlier you tried to zing me when I looked at other people too.  At this point, I'm saying you're the best lynch and you are.  I have an idea where to go if you flip scum, and if you flip town.  I'm looking at interactions and working to figure many things out.  Yet you are accusing me of being narrow-minded and tunnelling.   The things you're accusing me of contradict each other, and fail to match evidence.  First you say I'm not looking at interactions, then I'm trying to make as many people suspicious as possible.  One moment you're calling my behavior scummy because it's dredging up old topics.  The next you're calling it towny because it's "in the moment"....and the behavior didn't change!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 31, 2014, 09:10:59 am
Okay look final defense. Shraeye its day 1, its me, you don't know me, you don't know what is and is not scummy, noone does. Anyone could do anything as scum, you are so certain I am scum because you say nothing I say makes sense. You are guessing and stating opinions of what I do as factually scummy. I think thats ridiculous and hope you get lynched tomorrow.

I'm done talking to you, I am rereading so we have some conf!town reads to deal with tomorow.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 31, 2014, 09:12:34 am
Why not I do what witherweaver did? (I still don't really know what to post... :()

Witherweaver-Town
DD-Definite town. I used to be unsure, but now he is absolutely town
Ichi-Conspiracy theories? Post count? Seems scummy to me...
ADK-Null
Mcmcsalot-Well, I voted for him, so, scum (I explained in my vote why)
Shraeye-null
Faust-Possibly scum
Voltaire-Null
Nik-SCUM SCUM SCUM! Lurking at the beginning, then saying "oh...well...I just don't know what to post..." Ha! Pure trickery! Nik, who are your scum partners?  :P

Hello conf!town, no way scum jokes about themselves like that.

still think this is unlikely to come from mafia
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 31, 2014, 09:16:09 am
In that case I will unvote

This is the first ichi unvotes null read
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 31, 2014, 09:18:25 am
Hmm. I must have missed counting delerious deleuze. I appreciate the correction though, as it did change my decision.

I don't think I'm ready to put mcmc at L-1 yet. I would like to hear more from him, which we haven't really heard much.

What is everyone's opinion on mcmc. I already know those who are voting for him, but what about the others: faust, ADK, witherweaver and Volt?

The most important thing I think, is what information will be garnered from his lynch? What will it tell us about the interactions he had with other people (Shraeye, defending Nik, etc). And what will it tell us about the people on his wagon?

We still have what, 2+ days?
What do you mean that we haven't heard much from mcmc?  There has been a lot that mcmc has said; you can go back and see the things he's been saying.  I don't see why this is the wrong time for L-1.

Ok. I unvoted because I needed a little more time to consider things.

When I say we haven't heard a lot from mcmc, I mean him speaking in his own defense. For the last page or so, he's talked about other stuff, but I feel like he hasn't posted statements in his defense in a little while. But I see what you are saying.

Anyway, having done a more thorough reread, I would still prefer ADK I think, but I don't think that's going to happen. Mcmc is very scummy, and the large amount of interactions (many strong interactions) that he has had should give us a lot of information after his flip. Particularly about Shraeye.

back to vote: mcmc
Wow, ichi revotes me because shraeye tells him to and still says he would rather lynch someone else. voting someone while mainaining that they are not your number one choice is something we see scum do often
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 31, 2014, 09:23:22 am
yea sorry my typing was poor I am a vt(vanilla townie) not a tv

Argh. VT claiming is not a good thing to do. Never. I'm tempted to vote mcmc just for this.

Oh faust is very right about this, I should have refused to claim. I was upset and not thinking. In the future do not claim, refuse to. If You are the cop you will be shot before you can reveal anything, if you are the doctor you will be shot as you cannot protect yourself
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 31, 2014, 09:24:08 am
Ichi strikes me as scum if shraeye/mcmc/adk are all town.

I do not think shraeye/adk need to be town for him to be scum
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 31, 2014, 09:27:31 am
okay so I think shraeye is scum as well as ichimaru gin. I think Nik is town. I don't really see the case on adk, I may just not be able to read the thread without being upset at all the wrong/misrepresented info(to me) but I don't find adk scummy so I think the people pushing that are scummy as well. Faust is slightly scummy for his lurking.

Thats all I got. Feel free to hammer though I would prefer we lynch scum
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 31, 2014, 09:28:17 am
Lastly for funzies,

I want the non-shraeye voters on me to state why they believe I am Mafia in their own words.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 31, 2014, 09:35:24 am
yea sorry my typing was poor I am a vt(vanilla townie) not a tv

Argh. VT claiming is not a good thing to do. Never. I'm tempted to vote mcmc just for this.

What was he supposed to do?  If he really is vanilla town that is?  People were pressuring him to claim, and probably would have lynched him if he didn't.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 31, 2014, 09:38:57 am
Okay, then, suppose we lynch McMc and it's revealed he's town.

How do we react to that?

What does this post accomplish? Is this an attempt to manipulate us into making the assumption that mcmc is town? Why did you ask that question?

The point was that I was trying to figure out if McMc is a good lynch.  That is, would it be helpful if he turns out to be town?  My later post (about getting people to claim) explored this a bit more. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 31, 2014, 09:40:51 am
yea sorry my typing was poor I am a vt(vanilla townie) not a tv

Argh. VT claiming is not a good thing to do. Never. I'm tempted to vote mcmc just for this.

What was he supposed to do?  If he really is vanilla town that is?  People were pressuring him to claim, and probably would have lynched him if he didn't.

I should have refused to claim. If I was the doctor and I claimed I would be killed tonight by mafia so claiming is useless it would actually be better to get lynched(if I couldn't convince people I am town) if I was the cop I can't use my power tonight so the doctor has to protect me, and then tomorow night the doctor can't protect me so I would die and not be able to give results. So claiming is a terrible idea even if you are a power role, so I shouldn't have claimed
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 31, 2014, 09:43:08 am
Okay, then, suppose we lynch McMc and it's revealed he's town.

How do we react to that?

What does this post accomplish? Is this an attempt to manipulate us into making the assumption that mcmc is town? Why did you ask that question?

The point was that I was trying to figure out if McMc is a good lynch.  That is, would it be helpful if he turns out to be town?  My later post (about getting people to claim) explored this a bit more.

what my lynch does(when i flip town) is give you a wagon to look at and my conf!town(a situation where I am confirmed town) opinions. This is why I want everyone voting me to state why they find me scummy in their own words. If shraeye is town the mafia is on my wagon using shraeye as a cover for voting me, and getting a town lynch through
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 31, 2014, 09:48:29 am
yea sorry my typing was poor I am a vt(vanilla townie) not a tv

Argh. VT claiming is not a good thing to do. Never. I'm tempted to vote mcmc just for this.

What was he supposed to do?  If he really is vanilla town that is?  People were pressuring him to claim, and probably would have lynched him if he didn't.

I should have refused to claim. If I was the doctor and I claimed I would be killed tonight by mafia so claiming is useless it would actually be better to get lynched(if I couldn't convince people I am town) if I was the cop I can't use my power tonight so the doctor has to protect me, and then tomorow night the doctor can't protect me so I would die and not be able to give results. So claiming is a terrible idea even if you are a power role, so I shouldn't have claimed

I see.  That's consistent with what I was saying about claiming.. that we're getting ourselves in trouble by pushing people to close to lynching and then getting them to claim. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 31, 2014, 10:15:08 am
Lastly for funzies,

I want the non-shraeye voters on me to state why they believe I am Mafia in their own words.

Shraeye has made a compelling case on you for D1 (you find him scummy for everything he has done - the whole tunnel/throw dirt on everyone thing) and you're using AtE and an argument that shraeye can't be "that good" D1. In my opinion, it's a terrible case.

But I do appreciate all the posts you just threw up. If you're town, these will be quite helpful tomorrow. I don't know if shraeye is obv!scum at all if you flip town, not one bit, but I'm glad to see we agree about Ichi.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 31, 2014, 10:17:30 am
Okay, then, suppose we lynch McMc and it's revealed he's town.

How do we react to that?

What does this post accomplish? Is this an attempt to manipulate us into making the assumption that mcmc is town? Why did you ask that question?

The point was that I was trying to figure out if McMc is a good lynch.  That is, would it be helpful if he turns out to be town?  My later post (about getting people to claim) explored this a bit more.

And this is why I find WW town.

It's a newbie question. But it's not the kind of newbie question I think a vet scum player would coach their newbie partner to say/ask. A coached question seems like it would be more like "Why don't we no-lynch D1?" or "Can scum talk to each other right now?" This is a "how do we most effectively scumhunt" kind of question, and I'm not saying I'll forever find WW town but man it's a comfortably strong read (based on some of his other posts, too).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 31, 2014, 10:18:05 am
So your reaso for lynching me is Shraeye made a good case on me and my case on shraeye is bad.

That is so far from a reason I am Mafia in your own words you could have given...
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 31, 2014, 10:18:26 am
shraeye, what do you think about ichi?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 31, 2014, 10:18:57 am
So your reaso for lynching me is Shraeye made a good case on me and my case on shraeye is bad.

That is so far from a reason I am Mafia in your own words you could have given...

My own words: I am happy sheeping shraeye.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 31, 2014, 10:20:42 am
So your reaso for lynching me is Shraeye made a good case on me and my case on shraeye is bad.

That is so far from a reason I am Mafia in your own words you could have given...

My own words: I am happy sheeping shraeye.

Ugh!!!!! I hate being lynched and people can't iterate the case on me, this is a scum pushed wagon whether you are scum or just don't care enough to think for yourself it's extremely frustrating and BAD PLAY
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 31, 2014, 10:22:02 am
So I think I'm the only one without a vote.  It occurred to me this makes me look scummy if McMc turns out to be scum.  On the other hand, I know I'm not scum, and this together with McMc's latest posts makes me think he may be town.  I never had anything more than a slight scum read on him, and these latest interactions haven't made him seem more guilty to me.

If I was forced to bet one person to be scum right now, it would be Ichi.  I think if McMc flips town I would be suspecting him more.  I found the vote/unvote dance to be really odd.  I also have a slight scum read on ADK, but right now it's just an intuitive feel.  McMc I'm really unsure about.  My guess is town, but I'm not at all confident in this.

So I'm going to place my vote in by strongest read, which is against Ichi.

Vote: Ichimaru
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 31, 2014, 10:33:28 am
So your reaso for lynching me is Shraeye made a good case on me and my case on shraeye is bad.

That is so far from a reason I am Mafia in your own words you could have given...

My own words: I am happy sheeping shraeye.

Ugh!!!!! I hate being lynched and people can't iterate the case on me, this is a scum pushed wagon whether you are scum or just don't care enough to think for yourself it's extremely frustrating and BAD PLAY

This is now Appeal to Emotion, which is not a defense, which is why I am voting for you (it's part of shraeye's case). If you're town, a case has been made on you. You need a defense that's more than, people have to have different reasons from shraeye, this is frustrating.

Look, you might be town, but at this point your lynch will give tons of info. Plus, I think there's about a 75% chance you're scum, which is actually really high.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 31, 2014, 11:04:46 am
Reads:

scummy: faust, ADK, mcmc (I would be happy to lynch one of these today, and I think we should)

null: witherweaver, delirious deleuze

town: Volt, Shraeye, Nik?,
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 31, 2014, 11:05:22 am
shraeye, what do you think about ichi?
Ichi's voting patterns vis-a-vis mcmc seem strange.  Definitely makes him worth looking at.

If what you said were the case that would leave. (random order)

Ichimaru Gin
Wandering Winder
Delerious Deleuze
Voltaire
Nik
faust

So who would my scum partner be? faust?
Also, I can understand if this is just an important to get your reads down now if you happen to get killed tonight (something I remember Shraeye talking about earlier).
I dislike defensive questions like "if I'm scum, who's my partner?"  It's not a valid defense, since scum are trying to appear unconnected to eachother. 

This post as well; for some reason I get wary when people's reads line up so much with mine. 


Ichi, can you tell me what you remember why you put faust high on your suspicion list in that last post?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 31, 2014, 11:05:55 am
whoa; sorry for that weird quoting pull.  The phantom quote should be filled with the quote in my previous post.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on March 31, 2014, 11:17:51 am
I would be happy lynching Ichi instead of mcmc. Those are the only two people I want to lynch today at this point I think (mcmc because he claimed, X because we only should have 1 other option via WW's reasoning, and Ichi is my choice for X). Though we'd have to be quick about it to give Ichi time to claim.

Note that I don't think Ichi/mcmc is necessarily the scumteam. In fact I think that's fairly unlikely. They are scum in different universes I think and we should pick one.

Leaving my vote on mcmc because that is the lynch I like a bit more and it's far more viable.

I will now be gone all day, and will check in tonight.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 31, 2014, 11:22:14 am
vote: ichimaru gin
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Teproc on March 31, 2014, 11:24:16 am
Vote Count 1.11:

mcmcsalot (4): shraeye, Voltaire, Ichimaru Gin, Nik {L-1}
Ichimaru Gin (3): faust, Witherweaver, mcmcsalot
A Drowned Kernel (1) : Delirious Deleuze
Voltaire (1): A Drowned Kernel

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 12:00 p.m. on April 1, 2014 (in ~24 hours).

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on March 31, 2014, 11:30:48 am
Reads:

scummy: faust, ADK, mcmc (I would be happy to lynch one of these today, and I think we should)

null: witherweaver, delirious deleuze

town: Volt, Shraeye, Nik?,

So this is really interesting.  This is almost identical to Faust's read, except that Faust has Ichi as the third scum instead of himself.  For reference, this is what Faust said:

It is interesting how this doesn't feel like a newbie game at all. Good work, everyone!

After catching up, my reads now look like this:

Ichimaru - still scummy. All my previous points still hold, and he's done nothing to make himself look townie.
mcmc - scummy. The VT claim on top of everything else... let me state again why VT is a horrible claim for town to make: it accomplishes two things: 1) Scum knows who they don't need to lynch. 2) You will never be night killed. Scum loves an excuse for never being night killed. Town has no reason to give scum this information.
ADK - scummy. Mostly a feeling from his latest post. Also isn't very active or memorable, so he doesn't make a bad lynch

Nik - lurking, sheeping and slightly scummy for that. He's the only one here why acts like I would expect a newbie to act though, and this may well come from newbie!town.

Voltaire - null. He's pretty much his normal self, without any standout interactions that lead me to think either way about him. I do want to keep him alive today though.
Witherweaver - null. I don't really get why people find him particularly townie, but didn't see much scummy stuff either.

shraeye - slight town. I think he is making sense and putting strong reads out there and sticking to them. Scum is usually more afraid of such commitment.
DeDe - town. My strongest town read, actually. Posts seem sincere, good activity, not afraid of stating reads... it may be masterful newbie!scum play, but I don't think so.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 31, 2014, 12:22:08 pm
I still think ADK is the scummiest of all, but I think MCMC is a close second. I've been against him for a while. I think his arguments against shraeye are horrible constructed. I think the claim was problematic. He's appealing to emotion, which I think is just a bad defense at this point. I would be okay switching my vote.

That being said: newbie question - would just switching my vote and ending the discussion and the remaining time we have be bad to do? Would it be taboo to just switch and end d1?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 31, 2014, 12:50:57 pm
I still think ADK is the scummiest of all, but I think MCMC is a close second. I've been against him for a while. I think his arguments against shraeye are horrible constructed. I think the claim was problematic. He's appealing to emotion, which I think is just a bad defense at this point. I would be okay switching my vote.

That being said: newbie question - would just switching my vote and ending the discussion and the remaining time we have be bad to do? Would it be taboo to just switch and end d1?

Usually, you would state intent to hammer (hammer = putting the last vote required to lynch on a player). That way, everyone still has a chance to say something before the day ends. I already did that, though, so I guess you could hammer. I'll hold off for a bit; I will be leaving at 3 pm and, if noone else has hammered yet, I will place the hammer vote.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Delirious Deleuze on March 31, 2014, 12:52:49 pm
Okay cool! Thanks! You can hammer, I'll leave my vote on ADK.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 31, 2014, 01:03:41 pm
So, to give mcmc his answer (while I'm technically not voting for him, I think I should state my reasons anyway).

Mostly, it is you making a weak case on shraeye, who in return has a (in my opinion) more solid case on you. Your response to the accusations was much AtE, and little actual reasoning. You could never clarify the inconsistencies that he pointed out, you didn't even really try. Then the VT claim adds to that, I would lynch a claimed VT any time on D1.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 31, 2014, 01:39:54 pm
Ok. I'm back, done a quick skimming of 2+ pages.

Please don't anyone hammer right now.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 31, 2014, 01:41:53 pm
Ichi, can you tell me what you remember why you put faust high on your suspicion list in that last post?

Mostly because (before this last night) he hasn't really posted much of anything, hasn't posted much in general, and has experienced very little suspicion.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 31, 2014, 01:43:14 pm
This post as well; for some reason I get wary when people's reads line up so much with mine. 

Well Volt flat out admitted that he is sheeping you, so why doesn't that bother you?

I really can't say for sure that you are town, but your 100% commital and extremism on mcmc makes me think you are (plus other stuff that I'm too tired to think of right now)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 31, 2014, 01:47:20 pm
I still like my vote on Ichimaru. His case on DeDe was constructed, and now he brings up a conspiracy theory. I find it quite unlikely that mcmc and shraeye are scum together, and even if they are, I wouldn't think they staged this fight.

Why does that make him scummy? Town is paranoid everyone is scum. I see nothing suspicious about him seeing the fight as scum v scum. In fact, it gave me a town read on him.

I do think you're scummy faust - nice try. I think you're doing a good job of not getting a terrible amount of pressure while still being present on D1, a classic scum position.

Seeing the fight as scum vs scum gives Ichimaru a reason to vote for either of them, which he may want if both are town and exposing themselves like this.

Tell me, how did I manage to not get pressure? I am trying to contribute, yes. It is not my fault that noone has pressured me yet. Should I act scummy to get some pressure so that I don't look scummy? That just makes no sense.

Except I also mentioned that the worst case scenario is that they are both town, in which case all of this would be incredibly stupid and just getting town lynched. So you must have missed that post.

Ok. I'm back. Wow, much stronger scum read on ADK and mcmc.

I am interested by the people who decided to jump on the bandwagon of my "conspiracy theory", which is basically Nik sheeping ADK, and then changing his mind. Although I do admit that the self-aware "that scum!" joke is pretty townie.

I think it is also important to look at the way my behavior was first described by ADK as a "conspiracy theory" which is then a term that everyone else decides to use--creating a connotation with my behavior because of the label used to describe it--something I view as a blatant scum tactic. (I think I may have also used it, but my point still stands).

Reads:

scummy: faust, ADK, mcmc (I would be happy to lynch one of these today, and I think we should)

null: witherweaver, delirious deleuze

town: Volt, Shraeye, Nik?,

I won't be able to post a ton today, as I have heavy homework demands, but I am going to

vote: mcmc

That is L-2 I think. Nik voted for me, then revoted mcmc, and Shraeye's vote was already on mcmc.

Much OMGUS in this post, I think. I would like for you to specify why you have the reads you state here (if you did this already, sorry; I'm not yet finished rereading).

How is this OMGUS? ADK wasn't even voting for me at the time. I find him scummy because for a while he was just ignoring some of the major wagons, and also taking a very anti-everything attitude. e.g. voting for Voltaire for very poor reasons (I think this may have been after this post, I'm not sure), de de made some good points about defending people and basically doing vicarious OMGUS.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 31, 2014, 01:48:57 pm
This post as well; for some reason I get wary when people's reads line up so much with mine. 

Well Volt flat out admitted that he is sheeping you, so why doesn't that bother you?


Admitting to blatantly sheeping is different than posting thoughts that happen to line up with somebody elses.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 31, 2014, 01:50:08 pm
This post as well; for some reason I get wary when people's reads line up so much with mine. 

Well Volt flat out admitted that he is sheeping you, so why doesn't that bother you?


Admitting to blatantly sheeping is different than posting thoughts that happen to line up with somebody elses.

So more obvious scummy behavior is less scummy. Thanks, because I was actually unsure (being serious here), if that was a defense, but I guess it is.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 31, 2014, 01:51:28 pm
is it obviously scummy to sheep?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 31, 2014, 01:51:33 pm
In that case I will unvote

The way Ichi goes back and forth with putting mcmc at L-1 is most interesting.

I know that this is scummy. Why would I do this?
Because people posted things to change my mind. I am not going to tunnel mcmc when new evidence/posts come up.
Is having easily-changeable reads scummy? Maybe. But this is my first game as town, so even though I've played once before, there is a lot that is new to me.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 31, 2014, 01:52:13 pm
is it obviously scummy to sheep?

Is it? I thought so, am I wrong?

Sheeping is scummy because it is an easy position for scum to take, no?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 31, 2014, 01:54:06 pm
Ichimaru - still scummy. All my previous points still hold, and he's done nothing to make himself look townie.

This is a gross exaggeration. Universal negatives are rarely true, and certainly not true in this case.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 31, 2014, 01:57:04 pm
Wow, ichi revotes me because shraeye tells him to and still says he would rather lynch someone else. voting someone while mainaining that they are not your number one choice is something we see scum do often

I must admit, that is actually true. Shraeye was a major influence on my decision to revote you. Is this wrong? If Shraeye is town (which I think is likely), is it wrong for me as a very inexperienced town player to somewhat follow his lead?

As to the second sentence, did not Voltaire do the same thing (saying he would rather lynch ADK than mcmc?)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 31, 2014, 01:58:53 pm
but I'm glad to see we agree about Ichi.

Could someone explain this to me, there's so much to wade through and I'm not catching the reference.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 31, 2014, 02:06:01 pm
I would be happy lynching Ichi instead of mcmc. Those are the only two people I want to lynch today at this point I think (mcmc because he claimed, X because we only should have 1 other option via WW's reasoning, and Ichi is my choice for X). Though we'd have to be quick about it to give Ichi time to claim.

Wow, if mcmc is town, I can really see his frustration now! It really sucks being town and have people close lynching you!

At least as scum, you secretly know that their suspicions are justified.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 31, 2014, 02:10:03 pm
I probably could have done a better job of condensing my last posts, but I'm just adressing a ton of random things since I've been asleep. And also unsure when/if someone is going to hammer.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: faust on March 31, 2014, 02:47:04 pm
Well, I have to run. And I think we're done here. I would also be fine with the alternative Ichi lynch, but let's not risk another claim.

Vote: mcmc
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 31, 2014, 02:50:51 pm
I like that faust/Ichi are both happy with eachotehr's lynches.  And I'm not really sure what gives them that read.  faust justified his on Ichi a bit; ichi justified his on faust pretty badly I think.

In a reads list, Ichi shifts faust from null to scummy, when really there wasn't any indication in any of ichi's posts between those two reads-posts of reasons for that switch.

If mcmc is indeed town, we should look to faust/Ichi.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 31, 2014, 02:51:56 pm
between #190 adn #278.  that is the interval between Ichi's reads that I'm talking about.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on March 31, 2014, 02:54:27 pm
Okay well it was fun, sorry for getting over emotional in some of my defenses your all right to not trust ate I just couldn't help it. I am town, and I do think shraeye/ichi/faust are good people to look at.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 31, 2014, 02:55:48 pm
I like that faust/Ichi are both happy with eachotehr's lynches.  And I'm not really sure what gives them that read.  faust justified his on Ichi a bit; ichi justified his on faust pretty badly I think.

In a reads list, Ichi shifts faust from null to scummy, when really there wasn't any indication in any of ichi's posts between those two reads-posts of reasons for that switch.

If mcmc is indeed town, we should look to faust/Ichi.

Well I guess we'll find out. If mcmc is indeed town, I'll be looking to you though. I find your confidence townie, but it could also be scum bluffing.

You have made some incredibly strong statements against mcmc, but I asked myself. Is that really the best tactic for town either?
To have super strong reads as town, you better be actually positive that mcmc was scum. Otherwise, you would know that it would reflect badly on you, which seems like a poor gambit.

PPE: 1
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on March 31, 2014, 02:56:08 pm
i'm disapointed if that's true, you just had so many bad responses to everything i had.  Ichi/faust are a pair worth looking into tomorrow if mcmc is town.

if mcmc is scum and still trolling us, I think ADK is the place to look tomorrow.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on March 31, 2014, 02:58:47 pm
i'm disapointed if that's true, you just had so many bad responses to everything i had.  Ichi/faust are a pair worth looking into tomorrow if mcmc is town.

if mcmc is scum and still trolling us, I think ADK is the place to look tomorrow.

Regardless, I think it's worth taking a look at ADK. At the very least, I'd like to hear tomorrow about what he thinks about all this stuff that he's missed.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Teproc on March 31, 2014, 03:02:03 pm
THREAD LOCKED
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Teproc on March 31, 2014, 03:05:37 pm
Final Vote Count

mcmcsalot (5): shraeye, Voltaire, Ichimaru Gin, Nik, faust

Ichimaru Gin (2): Witherweaver, mcmcsalot
A Drowned Kernel (1) : Delirious Deleuze
Voltaire (1): A Drowned Kernel

With 9 alive, it took 5 to lynch.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Teproc on March 31, 2014, 03:18:53 pm
After Frank's arrest, all of his friends in Washington gathered information with one goal in mind : catching the people who outed him, and destroy them before they could do more damage.

One of them quickly identified the obvious : it had to be Claire. She clearly hadn't always been comfortable with her husband's actions, and had decided to do the right thing and bring him down. Only her could have so easily known his weak points, going back to his early days as a young senator.

After a few other were convinced, they got to work and gathered everything they had on her : the affairs, the secret abortions, the relations between her NGO and Somalian arms dealers, the breaking of work ethics on a daily basis... it was only after everything had been sent to every news outlet in the country that they realized their mistake : how could someone so clearly self-interested and ready to do anything have brought down her own husband so close to his goal ?


mcmcsalot has been lynched. He was Claire Underwood, the Corrupt Politician (Town Vanilla) !
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Teproc on March 31, 2014, 03:21:57 pm
Night 1 has begun. It will end tomorrow at 4pm. Any night actions submitted after that won't be taken into account.[/b]
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (PMs sent)
Post by: Teproc on April 01, 2014, 03:59:48 pm
That morning, Washington woke up to a new scandal : a scandal involving a certain Washington Herald reporter had broken out during the night and she had quickly been fired and forced to leave town to escape the press. It was revealed that she had compromised herself with several people on Capitol Hill, one of which was rumored to be Frank Underwood himself. Pictures were released, and it was revealed that she had failed to share her knowledge of election frauds and instances of corruption with the public, thus failing the ideals of her profession. Everyone on Capitol Hill knew this was the next step after Frank's removal from office, and that they would have to do everything in their power to stop this from continuing.

Delirious Deleuze has been forced to leave politics. He was Zoe Barnes, the Corrupt Journalist (Town Vanilla).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Teproc on April 01, 2014, 03:59:56 pm
"I've always loathed the necessity of sleep. Like death, it puts even the most powerful of men on their backs."

Day 2 starts now !
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on April 01, 2014, 04:00:56 pm
Sweet, VT death. Off to re-read now that we have another flip. Cool cool cool cool cool. I actually feel good about this.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 01, 2014, 04:06:46 pm
Sweet, VT death. Off to re-read now that we have another flip. Cool cool cool cool cool. I actually feel good about this.

Feel good?  I didn't like it.. I was pretty sure he was going to end up being town.. but I guess now knowing it for certain helps.  I have to go back and reread too. 

DeDe getting night killed doesn't seem to give a lot of info.  He had almost zero suspicion.  Most of the other players have a decent chance of getting lynched by town. That seems like the safest choice for scum, which maybe supports one of the veterans being scum.  Or maybe it was just obvious. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Teproc on April 01, 2014, 04:07:30 pm
Vote Count 2.0:

Not Voting (7): Nik, Witherweaver, Ichimaru Gin, A Drowned Kernel, shraeye, faust, Voltaire

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 2 ends at 4:00 p.m. on April 8, 2014.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Nik on April 01, 2014, 04:21:16 pm
Well then, it's obvious who to vote for now.
Vote:Shraeye
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 01, 2014, 04:35:42 pm
Well then, it's obvious who to vote for now.
Vote:Shraeye

How is that obvious?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 01, 2014, 04:37:42 pm
Not sure what to make of Voltaire's reaction to the flip, seems weird...

My main suspects right now are Ichi and ADK. I'll need to reread to see how they behaved towards the conf!townies.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 01, 2014, 04:40:48 pm
Not sure what to make of Voltaire's reaction to the flip, seems weird...

My main suspects right now are Ichi and ADK. I'll need to reread to see how they behaved towards the conf!townies.

Yep, this. shraeye should be a huge suspect today but NOT an auto-lynch. In fact, I don't think he's most likely to be scum. I just think he should be a strong candidate. I will most likely not want to lynch shraeye today.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 01, 2014, 04:41:38 pm
Not sure what to make of Voltaire's reaction to the flip, seems weird...

Why? I'm happy we lost a VT. We were wrong on mcmc but eh we're usually wrong D1. Now we can re-read D1 with two flips and all our PRs left. That's not best-case scenario, but it's the best version of the most-likely scenario.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 01, 2014, 04:46:10 pm
Not sure what to make of Voltaire's reaction to the flip, seems weird...

My main suspects right now are Ichi and ADK. I'll need to reread to see how they behaved towards the conf!townies.

Yep, this. shraeye should be a huge suspect today but NOT an auto-lynch. In fact, I don't think he's most likely to be scum. I just think he should be a strong candidate. I will most likely not want to lynch shraeye today.

Well, I do agree that it's nice to still have our PRs, only with the odd-night/even-night stuff they're not as strong.

How do we feel about a Doc claim, by the way? They can't use their power until N3, and having the claim now leaves scum with a hard decision whether to shoot the IC or hunt the Cop N2.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 01, 2014, 04:47:33 pm
I'd say later in the day, maybe. The doc should think about it. Hmm hmm hmm. It would also avoid the Cop targeting the Doc which would be bad (not disastrous, but...) Oh my. Maybe I do like it? I dunno.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 01, 2014, 04:49:11 pm
Voltaire is still my strongest suspect here. This all definitely warrants a reread, but I don't like the way he only started pushing hard on the mc wagon after there were several people voting on it.

Nik's out the gate vote for shraeye seems a little suspect as well, but that might just be a newbie mistake. He was also the lurkiest newbie on day on so maybe there's something there.

I'm inclined to believe shraeye is town, I'm much more suspicious of people who jumped on the wagon after it got going (Voltaire's the big one, possibly also faust and nik)

PPE: 2
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 01, 2014, 04:50:09 pm
ADK's reads are just so massively off of mine and most other's.

vote: ADK
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 01, 2014, 04:51:38 pm
Claiming: Seems a little risky to me, having both PRs survive to LyLo would pretty much mean an auto-win. It's ultimately up to them, I suppose.

PPE: So I'm scum for disagreeing with people? My read was off from others on mc and yet I was right. I'm going to vote for who I think is scummy, not who other people tell me to.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 01, 2014, 04:52:47 pm
Scum want people to avoid becoming consensus town-reads, because then they have fewer people to get mis-lynched.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 01, 2014, 04:55:52 pm
actually I think I am 100% pro-doc claim. Mafia gives us an IC either way - kill the Doc, cop gets an investigation and can claim, giving us 2 more (or maybe 1 scum to lynch). Or they leave the Doc alive, maybe they block a kill, cop won't investigate Doc, and maybe we get the cop the next day anyway.

So how does this work with scum fakeclaiming? That's the only issue.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Nik on April 01, 2014, 04:57:13 pm
Voltaire is still my strongest suspect here. This all definitely warrants a reread, but I don't like the way he only started pushing hard on the mc wagon after there were several people voting on it.

Nik's out the gate vote for shraeye seems a little suspect as well, but that might just be a newbie mistake. He was also the lurkiest newbie on day on so maybe there's something there.

I'm inclined to believe shraeye is town, I'm much more suspicious of people who jumped on the wagon after it got going (Voltaire's the big one, possibly also faust and nik)

PPE: 2
Voltaire is still my strongest suspect here. This all definitely warrants a reread, but I don't like the way he only started pushing hard on the mc wagon after there were several people voting on it.

Nik's out the gate vote for shraeye seems a little suspect as well, but that might just be a newbie mistake. He was also the lurkiest newbie on day on so maybe there's something there.

I'm inclined to believe shraeye is town, I'm much more suspicious of people who jumped on the wagon after it got going (Voltaire's the big one, possibly also faust and nik)

PPE: 2
Sorry, I thought that since Shraeye was arguing with Mcmcsalot, he was scum; but now I'm unsure.
But Volitare's behavior is a bit scummy. So for now, I'll Unvote. Vote:Volitare.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Nik on April 01, 2014, 04:57:38 pm
Sorry, don't know why I quoted twice.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 01, 2014, 04:59:14 pm
Voltaire is still my strongest suspect here. This all definitely warrants a reread, but I don't like the way he only started pushing hard on the mc wagon after there were several people voting on it.

Nik's out the gate vote for shraeye seems a little suspect as well, but that might just be a newbie mistake. He was also the lurkiest newbie on day on so maybe there's something there.

I'm inclined to believe shraeye is town, I'm much more suspicious of people who jumped on the wagon after it got going (Voltaire's the big one, possibly also faust and nik)

PPE: 2
Sorry, I thought that since Shraeye was arguing with Mcmcsalot, he was scum; but now I'm unsure.
But Volitare's behavior is a bit scummy. So for now, I'll Unvote. Vote:Volitare.

Why is Voltaire's behavior scummy? 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 01, 2014, 04:59:47 pm
Gr, my question was accidentally inside the quote.  Why is Voltaire's behavior scummy?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on April 01, 2014, 05:01:50 pm
Sweet, VT death. Off to re-read now that we have another flip. Cool cool cool cool cool. I actually feel good about this.
That's not scummy?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 01, 2014, 05:04:43 pm
Sweet, VT death. Off to re-read now that we have another flip. Cool cool cool cool cool. I actually feel good about this.
That's not scummy?

I'd like to hear you explain why it is.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 01, 2014, 05:08:34 pm
Ok just got out of an econ test. On my way home. I should be back in approx. 1 hour.

My question? Why did scum kill deleuze? I know analysing nightkills isn't really a thing, but it's just not what I would have expected based off my reads.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on April 01, 2014, 05:16:23 pm
Sweet, VT death. Off to re-read now that we have another flip. Cool cool cool cool cool. I actually feel good about this.
That's not scummy?

I'd like to hear you explain why it is.
He feels good about a VT dying.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 01, 2014, 05:18:40 pm
Ok just got out of an econ test. On my way home. I should be back in approx. 1 hour.

My question? Why did scum kill deleuze? I know analysing nightkills isn't really a thing, but it's just not what I would have expected based off my reads.

It seems to me that him being killed gives us the least information.  We didn't think he was scum, so that doesn't help us narrow a subject down.  He also wasn't going to get lynched by us.  If ADK or you were town and got night killed, we would probably just end up lynching the other one.*  If Voltaire, Faust, or Shraeye were killed, it would limit the number of suspects for the scum team.  Nik or I probably would have given a similar result as DeDe, but I think DeDe had a more accepted town read than anyone else.

*Well if this analysis is correct, then killing either ADK or Ichi at night makes sense if they're both town.  Since this didn't happen, it indicates that they are not both town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 01, 2014, 05:19:16 pm
Who would you have expected to get killed during the night?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 01, 2014, 05:25:34 pm
Sweet, VT death. Off to re-read now that we have another flip. Cool cool cool cool cool. I actually feel good about this.
That's not scummy?

I'd like to hear you explain why it is.
He feels good about a VT dying.

You really think he's saying that he's scum and he's happy there was a mislynch?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 01, 2014, 05:29:18 pm
I'm wary of the either/or thing that WW talks about with me and Ichi, and that Nik (and other people earlier the game IIRC) talk about with mc and shraeye. If two people call each other scum, and one flips town, that doesn't automatically make the other scum. Two townies can be suspicious of each other, and I think that scum is more likely to sit back and try and fuel the flames from the sidelines than to get involved in fights like that.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on April 01, 2014, 05:35:14 pm
Sweet, VT death. Off to re-read now that we have another flip. Cool cool cool cool cool. I actually feel good about this.
That's not scummy?

I'd like to hear you explain why it is.
He feels good about a VT dying.

You really think he's saying that he's scum and he's happy there was a mislynch?
Well, he said he 'feels good about it.'
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 01, 2014, 05:41:44 pm
Scum want people to avoid becoming consensus town-reads, because then they have fewer people to get mis-lynched.

It also benefits scum to create the illusion of a consensus when there isn't actually one. It's a great intimidation tactic to say or imply "this is what everyone thinks, and if you disagree you're scummy", especially coming from a vet in a newbie game.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 01, 2014, 05:46:11 pm
I'm wary of the either/or thing that WW talks about with me and Ichi, and that Nik (and other people earlier the game IIRC) talk about with mc and shraeye. If two people call each other scum, and one flips town, that doesn't automatically make the other scum. Two townies can be suspicious of each other, and I think that scum is more likely to sit back and try and fuel the flames from the sidelines than to get involved in fights like that.

This
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 01, 2014, 05:49:57 pm
I don't know exactly what to think of having the doc claim.
So he doesn't get to use his power again until night 3. And I agree that would make a good dilemma for scum and also slightly increase the odds of the cop investigating scum.

So volt is 100% for it but ADK has some doubts. I must admit, I am really mentally exhausted right now, and don't exactly have much of an opinion on the subject.
However, it all comes down to how it will help/hurt town. So does everyone else think?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 01, 2014, 05:50:45 pm
I'm wary of the either/or thing that WW talks about with me and Ichi, and that Nik (and other people earlier the game IIRC) talk about with mc and shraeye. If two people call each other scum, and one flips town, that doesn't automatically make the other scum. Two townies can be suspicious of each other, and I think that scum is more likely to sit back and try and fuel the flames from the sidelines than to get involved in fights like that.

So this wasn't what I said.  It wasn't that you and Ichi were calling each other scum, so one of you must be scum. It's that you two were the most likely candidates from the rest of the group for a lynch aside from McMc.  If I'm scum and you two aren't, I know this, so killing one of you means the other would probably get lynched since there was already support for it.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on April 01, 2014, 06:27:30 pm
Sweet, VT death. Off to re-read now that we have another flip. Cool cool cool cool cool. I actually feel good about this.
That's not scummy?

I'd like to hear you explain why it is.
He feels good about a VT dying.

Nik is 100% obviously town. We are absolutely not lynching him.

This is a bad/incorrect/wrong line of reasoning, but it is one that only town thinks (especially new town).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 01, 2014, 06:30:33 pm
I'm wary of the either/or thing that WW talks about with me and Ichi, and that Nik (and other people earlier the game IIRC) talk about with mc and shraeye. If two people call each other scum, and one flips town, that doesn't automatically make the other scum. Two townies can be suspicious of each other, and I think that scum is more likely to sit back and try and fuel the flames from the sidelines than to get involved in fights like that.

So this wasn't what I said.  It wasn't that you and Ichi were calling each other scum, so one of you must be scum. It's that you two were the most likely candidates from the rest of the group for a lynch aside from McMc.  If I'm scum and you two aren't, I know this, so killing one of you means the other would probably get lynched since there was already support for it.

I'm not so sure about that - in your scenario, they both are likely easy mislynches, so scum leaves them alive and kills off someone in the background. Like DD, which is what they did.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 01, 2014, 06:37:19 pm
Sweet, VT death. Off to re-read now that we have another flip. Cool cool cool cool cool. I actually feel good about this.
That's not scummy?

I'd like to hear you explain why it is.
He feels good about a VT dying.

Nik is 100% obviously town. We are absolutely not lynching him.

This is a bad/incorrect/wrong line of reasoning, but it is one that only town thinks (especially new town).

Unless, of course, he was coached to say this.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 01, 2014, 06:40:19 pm
I'm wary of the either/or thing that WW talks about with me and Ichi, and that Nik (and other people earlier the game IIRC) talk about with mc and shraeye. If two people call each other scum, and one flips town, that doesn't automatically make the other scum. Two townies can be suspicious of each other, and I think that scum is more likely to sit back and try and fuel the flames from the sidelines than to get involved in fights like that.

So this wasn't what I said.  It wasn't that you and Ichi were calling each other scum, so one of you must be scum. It's that you two were the most likely candidates from the rest of the group for a lynch aside from McMc.  If I'm scum and you two aren't, I know this, so killing one of you means the other would probably get lynched since there was already support for it.

I'm not so sure about that - in your scenario, they both are likely easy mislynches, so scum leaves them alive and kills off someone in the background. Like DD, which is what they did.

Yeah, maybe, but that requires two mislynches. They need town to go the direction they want two days in a row (after a mislynch on day 1)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 01, 2014, 06:44:17 pm
So I was typing up the possibilities of doc claiming and scum fakeclaiming.  I had to go mobile though.  I think (!?) my conclusion was going to be that fakeclaiming gives us more information and we'll certainly want to lynch one of the claims, even if we're wrong, so they wouldn't want to mislynch.  I'm not certain of it, though.

I'm not certain we want to claim.  I guess it gives scum a dilemma because they have to choose to kill the doc or gamble for the cop.  Not much different for them.  However for us it gives us more info on who to lynch, since we have one piece of certain knowledge.  So, maybe.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 01, 2014, 06:45:21 pm
Dammit, that should say "wouldn't want to fakeclaim".  Sorry, on phone
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on April 01, 2014, 06:49:43 pm
Sweet, VT death. Off to re-read now that we have another flip. Cool cool cool cool cool. I actually feel good about this.
That's not scummy?

I'd like to hear you explain why it is.
He feels good about a VT dying.

Nik is 100% obviously town. We are absolutely not lynching him.

This is a bad/incorrect/wrong line of reasoning, but it is one that only town thinks (especially new town).
If this is really an incorrect line of reasoning, then I'll just Unvote for now.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 01, 2014, 06:58:47 pm
I've thought about claiming more.

Let's say that the Doc claims today. Those of us who are town, and not the Doc, now have a 2/5 chance of lynching scum (this gets better based on our reads). Gives us decent odds of lynching scum today. If we lynch scum today, everything is fine and dandy.

But what if we lynch another VT? Scum then is faced with the choice of either killing the Doc or hunting for the Cop. Let's say they kill the doc.

D3 will dawn with 5 players left. 2 are scum, 1 is the Cop, and 2 are VTs. The Cop will have a result on someone - if it's scum, we will have a choice to make. Because it is LyLo (lynch wrong and lose), scum will also claim to be the Cop and have a result on someone. The good news is that in this worst-case scenario, we have a 50/50 chance (improved by our reads). That's not too bad.

What if scum got lucky and killed the Cop? Then D3 is 2 scum, 1 doc, 2 VTs. But the doc is actually an IC (known town) so we can't mislynch him, and scum don't have the opportunity to fakeclaim doc (because the doc claimed today, D2). The VTs have 2/3 odds of lynching scum. And the doc has a chance of stopping the kill at night (only if we get it right, if we don't then that's an endgame scenario because eventually the doc won't get it right and scum have a majority of town).

These are the scenarios where we mislynch today and the doc has claimed. I think they're both pretty good.

What if the doc doesn't claim and we mislynch today? If a VT dies overnight, 5 players left, 1 cop 1 doc 1 VT 2 scum. Scum will totally fakeclaim a PR. 50/50 odds again.

If they kill the cop, D3 is 2 VTs 1 doc 2 scum. Scum fakeclaim (probably). 50/50 odds?
If they kill the doc, D3 is 2 VTs 1 cop 2 scum. Scum fakeclaim because they have to because the cop has results.

So actually I'm ambivalent on if the doc claims but I lean yes. What I haven't commented on yet is that we will have the benefit of an IC doc for the rest of today, plus their interactions on D1 to re-read and know.

So, doc should exercise their own judgement on claiming today. It might be a good idea. At worst, it is an indifferent idea.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on April 01, 2014, 07:01:18 pm
If this is really an incorrect line of reasoning, then I'll just Unvote for now.

Basically Nik, if I were scum, I would know better than to post something like that. Now, you can argue for WIFOM (maybe I'm scum and I want you to think like that).

But from my point of view, this is strong evidence you are town. (along with other stuff about the way you've played from D1).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on April 01, 2014, 07:06:59 pm
Unless, of course, he was coached to say this.

It reads just crazily naturally. People always say "maybe they were coached! Maybe it's a ploy!" but those are actually hard to pull off. It's hard to act like a town newbie when you're actually a scum newbie.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 01, 2014, 07:07:32 pm
And by that I mean, they'll drop the act accidentally or unaccidentally at some point.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 01, 2014, 07:10:03 pm
But what about me? I still haven't re-read. I'm looking at, prior to that:

Nik - town
Witherweaver - probably town
Ichimaru Gin - ???
A Drowned Kernel - scummy
shraeye - huge enigma
faust - ???
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 02, 2014, 10:14:18 am
Ok just got out of an econ test. On my way home. I should be back in approx. 1 hour.

My question? Why did scum kill deleuze? I know analysing nightkills isn't really a thing, but it's just not what I would have expected based off my reads.
what would you have expected based on your reads?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 02, 2014, 10:19:25 am
I don't know exactly what to think of having the doc claim.
So he doesn't get to use his power again until night 3. And I agree that would make a good dilemma for scum and also slightly increase the odds of the cop investigating scum.

So volt is 100% for it but ADK has some doubts. I must admit, I am really mentally exhausted right now, and don't exactly have much of an opinion on the subject.
However, it all comes down to how it will help/hurt town. So does everyone else think?
Doc should use own judgement.  There are upsides and downsides to claiming, and upsides/downsides to staying silent.  The correct path is not clear, opinions can and should vary.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 02, 2014, 10:27:06 am
I don't know exactly what to think of having the doc claim.
So he doesn't get to use his power again until night 3. And I agree that would make a good dilemma for scum and also slightly increase the odds of the cop investigating scum.

So volt is 100% for it but ADK has some doubts. I must admit, I am really mentally exhausted right now, and don't exactly have much of an opinion on the subject.
However, it all comes down to how it will help/hurt town. So does everyone else think?
Doc should use own judgement.  There are upsides and downsides to claiming, and upsides/downsides to staying silent.  The correct path is not clear, opinions can and should vary.

I'm thinking doctor claiming helps us more than it helps scum.  It doesn't really give them any additional info,* but it gives us a known.  I think fakeclaiming would be worse for them, so they probably shouldn't.   

*It does tell them where the cop is not, so it increases their chances of hunting the cop amongst the remaining town (so they have a 1/4 chance instead of a 1/5 chance).  If they nightkill the cop, his role will be revealed to us the next day, right?  So they could not claim to be the cop?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 02, 2014, 10:28:17 am
yes, any player killed by mafia will have their role revealed, like Del's was at the start of today.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 02, 2014, 10:44:30 am
Ok just got out of an econ test. On my way home. I should be back in approx. 1 hour.

My question? Why did scum kill deleuze? I know analysing nightkills isn't really a thing, but it's just not what I would have expected based off my reads.
what would you have expected based on your reads?

Well I was expecting either you or Volt since you both seem like pretty active (and veteran) members of town. But I do see the benefit of eliminating people who are unlikely to be mislynched though.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 02, 2014, 03:02:38 pm
Unless, of course, he was coached to say this.

It reads just crazily naturally. People always say "maybe they were coached! Maybe it's a ploy!" but those are actually hard to pull off. It's hard to act like a town newbie when you're actually a scum newbie.

Well I wouldn't have brought it up if it wasn't already talked about earlier.  It made me think, well, if there were something a scum newbie would be coached to say by a scum vet, this would be it.

My problem is, his reaction doesn't make any sense if he just thought about it for a few seconds.  So, yes, he's a newbie, but I'm a newbie too.  It's like he's actively trying to sound more ignorant.

You may be right, but my main point here is that maybe we shouldn't automatically jump to Nik being certain town read.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 02, 2014, 03:05:08 pm
Sweet, VT death. Off to re-read now that we have another flip. Cool cool cool cool cool. I actually feel good about this.
That's not scummy?

I'd like to hear you explain why it is.
He feels good about a VT dying.

Nik is 100% obviously town. We are absolutely not lynching him.

This is a bad/incorrect/wrong line of reasoning, but it is one that only town thinks (especially new town).
If this is really an incorrect line of reasoning, then I'll just Unvote for now.

But don't you know whether or not it's an incorrect line of reasoning?  And you vote Voltaire, then Voltaire tells you that your reasoning is wrong, so you automatically unvote? 

I'd like to hear some more explanation.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Teproc on April 02, 2014, 05:14:19 pm
Vote Count 2.1:

A Drowned Kernel (1) : Voltaire

Not Voting (6): Nik, Witherweaver, Ichimaru Gin, A Drowned Kernel, shraeye, faust

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 2 ends at 4:00 p.m. on April 8, 2014.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Nik on April 02, 2014, 08:13:12 pm
Sweet, VT death. Off to re-read now that we have another flip. Cool cool cool cool cool. I actually feel good about this.
That's not scummy?

I'd like to hear you explain why it is.
He feels good about a VT dying.

Nik is 100% obviously town. We are absolutely not lynching him.

This is a bad/incorrect/wrong line of reasoning, but it is one that only town thinks (especially new town).
If this is really an incorrect line of reasoning, then I'll just Unvote for now.

But don't you know whether or not it's an incorrect line of reasoning?  And you vote Voltaire, then Voltaire tells you that your reasoning is wrong, so you automatically unvote? 

I'd like to hear some more explanation.
Um...I didn't want people to think I was scum, but now I realize that was a big mistake.
I'm still going to keep my Unvote, since Volitare is looking less scummy.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 10:14:47 am
Okay, this has been really quiet and I don't feel any more enlightened since day 2 began. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 03, 2014, 10:19:34 am
Yes, this is very quiet, and it is at least partly my fault. So sorry for that, I'm having a busy week. I'm hoping I will have time for a targeted reread tomorrow.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 10:47:22 am
There was a lot of talk of looking into Ichi/Faust if McMc turned out town.

Well, McMc turned out town, and no one has said anything about Ichi/Faust.

I don't have a read on Faust.  Can people explain why his actions indicated scumminess?

Okay, I want to get a vote out to move things along.  I liked my cute little argument that if both Ichi/ADK were town, then one would have been nightkilled because the consensus feeling was leading to lynching the other during the next day.  It's probably too cute to be actually correct.  But I find it interesting that ADK replied to that argument by not addressing it, but by instead addressing the either/or in a scum-accusation argument, which was relevant to Shraeye/McMc but not Ichi/ADK.

ADK also had a very safe vote on Voltaire in day 1 and a confusing jump around between DeDe/Ichi, and then Voltaire. 

I'm going to Vote: A Drowned Kernel for now.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 12:25:27 pm
Actually re-reading right now.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 01:10:48 pm
It seems like Shraeye is being very aggressive and spreading confusion.  Maybe this is just his play style.. I'm not sure.  My read right now is scum.

He's asking a lot of questions and analyzing people's motivations, which I read as a more towny trait. shraeye's probably my strongest town read so far.

Why exactly do you think shraeye is town? Shraeye asks almost entirely questions as scum.

I don't have the same meta knowledge of him that you do so I won't know about that. I'm basing my town read on him off of his questions seeming pointed and insightful, though the thing with analyzing WW's post and "mc was just the first to post about it" does seem a little off.

ADK, can you point me to the D1 posts prior to this where shraeye is "pointed" and "insightful"? Especially if you think the WW post/mcmc thing was "a little off".
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 01:23:39 pm
It'd be nice to hear more from mcmc and shraeye.


town reads on: volt, nik, shraeye

null on: ww, adk, faust

possible scum: dd, mcmc,

Help me out here. Does this make IG more or less likely to be scum?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 01:30:19 pm
So I have no IDEA what. the. jack. you are talking about.  I am in no way more "in the moment" now than I was then.  You're just making a hack-job of pretending to have a reason for reads.  Scum. Found.

vote: mcmc

shraeye, what do you think of the mcmc wagon/interactions now that he's flipped town?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 01:37:09 pm
What would be the upshot for them?  That we lynch one of them today and don't suspect the other?  Seems kind of dangerous given that there are only two scum. (We know for certain that's the case?  And no third parties?)

And Cop can investigate the survivor on Night 2 and claim on Day 3.  Pretty much guaranteed town win unless they happen to kill the cop on Night 1 or Night 2.

WW, in the span of 8 minutes you appear to go from having no clue about the setup to knowing it in detail. How/why?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 01:43:37 pm
Shraeye seemed towny to me before the fight, but his "trap" moves him into suspicious territory. mc seems a little scummy but mc always seems a little scummy, both my experiences playing with him I was certain he was scum and he ended up being town so I'm hesitant to vote for him. But I shouldn't be relying on meta knowledge, especially in a newbie game.

This is suspicious.  I have no "trap" set up.  mcmc did crazy stuff, I called him out.  then he did CRAZIER stuff.  And it just got worse from there. 

You're words on mcmc are the most waffling non-committal words of any commenter.  This is the way yuma came out as raerae's partner in Adventure Time mafia (a recent game that town won).  That position is very indicative of scum partner.  If mcmc flips scum, town should most definitely remember this interaction.

Aren't his words on you equally noncommittal?

This exchange, it fascinates me.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 01:46:28 pm
1. Nik - I get a  pretty bored townie read on him. Not a lot to comment on because he's been fairly inactive.
2. Witherweaver - I thought his questions where suspicious at first, but I'm getting a townie read on him now.
3. Delirious Deleuze - Definitely a town.
4. Ichimaru Gin - I think the case against me wasn't artificial, but that I was acting odd (because it was my first real post) and I think gin's response was genuine. I'm leaning townie.
5. mcmcsalot - I still feel very scummy here. I've posted above why. I still feel he's not really being responsive to anything we said about him eariler, or maybe it's just that I don't read his responses as true. I'm really leaning with Shraeye here. On top of that, Shraeye's form of questioning is made to force people to answer things, even if the questions aren't right. There answers give a lot away. It'd make sense that scum would start accusing the questioning shraeye to try to get him mislynched and then avoiding being discovered by shraeye's questions. I feel very scummy coming from MCMC, which is why my votes on him.
6. shraeye  - As above, I feel his questioning method is very townie and trying to get scum to reveal themselves through answers. I don't feel anything he did was really that scummy.
7. faust - null
8. Voltaire- null
9. ADK - I've noticed something weird, or at least I think I did. I've looked over his past posts, and his meta-paradigm or whatever usually is much more accusative or at the very least, he makes more new responses in other games.

In this game though, ADK has only been accusative when defending other players. He has never just argued someone is acting scummy, rather he sees someone else being accused of being scummy, defends them and while defending them says the other person is scummy. It happened when he defended me from Ichimaru Gin, it happened when Gin and I talked about the conspiracy. I think this behavior could be neutral (he really is trying to be safe and defend people) or maybe he's trying a new meta this game, but I definitely think it's suspicious and feels scummy to me.

In all,

Scummy: MCMC
Possible Scum: ADK, Ichimaru Gin,
Null: Faust, Voltaire
Townie: WW, DeDe, Nik, Shraeye

PPE 3: I don't agree that ADK is more scummy than MCMC but he's definitely fishy. Then again, I don't have a very large meta-knowledge here
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 01:57:15 pm
I need to read. I'd much rather lynch mcmc; i'm 100% positive of his scuminess.  He's been attacking me with nothing more than hot-button generic-scummy things that I'm not actually doing at all.  His position on me has jumped back and forth and also not been in line with any of the actual evidence.  He repeatedly refuses to defend or back up his statements that I've already pointed out are contradictory, instead resorting to ad hominem attacks and blatant AtE. 

His frustration could absolutely be legitimate.  No doubt.  But I'm sure that he is frustrated scum.  If we turn somewhere else and run up the doctor or the cop, we are screwing ourselves.  Hard.  There is no reason to do that in the face of such an overwhelming reason to lynch mcmc.

Shraeye deflects/is wishy-washy when I ask about ADK instead of mcmc.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 01:59:45 pm
However, although I still see mcmc's frustration as townie (I think). I can't deny that his lynch will give us a ton of information.

So, what info did mcmc's lynch give us?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 02:02:53 pm
yea sorry my typing was poor I am a vt(vanilla townie) not a tv

Argh. VT claiming is not a good thing to do. Never. I'm tempted to vote mcmc just for this.

He was at L-1 with implied intent. There was nothing wrong with him claiming.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 02:03:16 pm
Hi, the 4-5 people who are reading this thread and having been reading for quite some time. Come out and play!  :)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 02:05:02 pm
What would be the upshot for them?  That we lynch one of them today and don't suspect the other?  Seems kind of dangerous given that there are only two scum. (We know for certain that's the case?  And no third parties?)

And Cop can investigate the survivor on Night 2 and claim on Day 3.  Pretty much guaranteed town win unless they happen to kill the cop on Night 1 or Night 2.

WW, in the span of 8 minutes you appear to go from having no clue about the setup to knowing it in detail. How/why?


The first message is underlied by an assumption, and I add a parenthetical question so someone can double check that my assumption is correct.  There was an exchanges between the two quotes of mine that continued on a line of reasoning under the assumption about the setup.  The second message is continuing to explain the argument in the first message and is in response to DeDe's response to mine.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 02:09:56 pm
Re-read complete! Note that I don't comment on everything that happened, just stuff I think is worth noting. Also, I'll look at the D1 wagon (the final vote count) later.

faust - complains that the game started out slow when he re-appears, despite his first few posts being "help the newbies" posts and having done nothing himself to move the game along. Casts lurker vote on shraeye. Casts lurker vote on Nik.

shraeye - scummiest thing is how he's fallen off the face of the planet after driving the mcmc mislynch yesterday (though I don't find that action particularly scummy). Does the really strained misunderstanding of faust. Calls out ADK (I have played scum with shraeye before - he likes to build cases on his scumpartners but leave out the strongest points. I know this for a fact).

WW - first post has the "one vet must be scum" statement. And man, I forgot about this. WW is arguing that Nik might be coached newbie scum for saying obvious wrong things and yet he himself opened the game with the classic "coached new scum" example (note: not real, but it is what we always assume new scum would be coached to say). That's interesting. What it means is, if WW is mafia, I think he has a vet partner (which also explains why this line of thinking was at the front of his mind). So if he is mafia his partner is most likely shraeye (but would he say this (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10647.msg359687#msg359687) about shraeye if shraeye was his partner? This is the first post in the game that finds shraeye scummy) or faust (or myself from your point of view, dear reader). If WW is mafia, I think I'd rather lynch his partner. That's because I'm not very certain about him. Third to unvote [was voting Voltaire]. Then votes shraeye. His comment on "are there third parties?" just reads forced as hell to me. Votes IG.

ADK - is cool as silk (what) to mcmc's vote on him, and does the "if we're making serious votes now I'll unvote" statement (he's the first to start the string of unvotes [was voting IG]). The post is here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10647.msg359463#msg359463). I get a tiny scummy vibe from it, he hedges like crazy (townie) but throws up lots of empty content (scummy). Expresses big town read on shraeye. Says he's "pointed" and "insightful" somehow. Votes Ichi for his "conspiracy theory". Votes for me after I come out in favor of lynching mcmc.

IG - is second to unvote [was voting ADK] when ADK starts that as a thing. Votes Nik for lurking. Votes DD for claiming someone was lying about being a newbie (???). Pushes DD hard. Brings up maybe mcmc/shareye is scum/scum. I find that fact extremely townie.

Nik - shows up super-late. Lurker votes DD. Says both shraeye and DD are scummy. Votes mcmc. Votes Ichi. Thinks DD is certainly town. Back to mcmc.

And some notes on our townies:

mcmc - casts a real vote on ADK, and brings up that WW could have been coached. Then goes after shraeye quite reasonably, I say.

DD - shows up, votes WW while calling shraeye scummy. Defends shraeye, scummy on mcmc. Votes mcmc. Comes out hard against ADK.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 02:10:23 pm
That was D1. Reading D2 now. Then I'll look at the final wagon.

If I asked you a question, respond to it.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 02:13:13 pm
You missed that ADK first voted against DeDe for Ichi's "conspiracy theory", then it was pointed out (by me and Ichi himself) that it wasn't DeDe's.  Then ADK is like, "Well, I guess I better switch to Ichi then", and switches.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 02:14:13 pm
I still haven't re-read. I'm looking at, prior to that:

Nik - town
Witherweaver - probably town
Ichimaru Gin - ???
A Drowned Kernel - scummy
shraeye - huge enigma
faust - ???

After re-reading:

Nik - town
WW - probably town, has a vet partner if scum
IG - damn, the re-read had me so convinced he was town but then I got to the part late D1 where people made a case on him and now I don't know
ADK - scummy as $%#@
shraeye - Gah. Gah. I don't know.
faust - just doing such a great job of lurking.

I don't like that we have so many town players clearly seeming scummy to me. This is frustrating/difficult. Nik is the only person I've been able to take off the table today.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 02:14:30 pm
You missed that ADK first voted against DeDe for Ichi's "conspiracy theory", then it was pointed out (by me and Ichi himself) that it wasn't DeDe's.  Then ADK is like, "Well, I guess I better switch to Ichi then", and switches.

I didn't miss it, I saw it.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 02:15:07 pm
You missed that ADK first voted against DeDe for Ichi's "conspiracy theory", then it was pointed out (by me and Ichi himself) that it wasn't DeDe's.  Then ADK is like, "Well, I guess I better switch to Ichi then", and switches.

I didn't miss it, I saw it.

I meant missed pointing it out in the recap.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 02:16:29 pm
The scummiest thing about shraeye, actually, is that he has said nothing that wasn't about theory today.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 02:17:08 pm
I meant missed pointing it out in the recap.

Note that I don't comment on everything that happened, just stuff I think is worth noting.

You clearly think it's worth noting - why, and what does it tell us?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 02:18:52 pm
I meant missed pointing it out in the recap.

Note that I don't comment on everything that happened, just stuff I think is worth noting.

You clearly think it's worth noting - why, and what does it tell us?

I don't know.. it felt like a slip, and he had to cover himself.  Like he just needed an excuse to vote, and then had to make his excuse hold up.

Maybe it's no more likely that it was a slip as scum than a slip as town, but I just found it very odd.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 02:27:24 pm
WW is off the table for me today.

I want to lynch ADK the most I think. There are plenty of other people I'd lynch though (shraeye, faust, IG).

vote: ADK
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 03, 2014, 02:32:28 pm
Ok. I'm town doctor.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 02:34:37 pm
Ok. I'm town doctor.

Well then.  If this is true, I'm all for ADK.

Who did you protect last night?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 03, 2014, 02:36:49 pm
Ok. I'm town doctor.

Well then.  If this is true, I'm all for ADK.

Who did you protect last night?

I protected Shraeye. Which in hindsight may not have been the best choice, but there was no way I would have guessed that scum would target dd.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 02:43:41 pm
Shraeye seemed towny to me before the fight, but his "trap" moves him into suspicious territory. mc seems a little scummy but mc always seems a little scummy, both my experiences playing with him I was certain he was scum and he ended up being town so I'm hesitant to vote for him. But I shouldn't be relying on meta knowledge, especially in a newbie game.

This is suspicious.  I have no "trap" set up.  mcmc did crazy stuff, I called him out.  then he did CRAZIER stuff.  And it just got worse from there. 

You're words on mcmc are the most waffling non-committal words of any commenter.  This is the way yuma came out as raerae's partner in Adventure Time mafia (a recent game that town won).  That position is very indicative of scum partner.  If mcmc flips scum, town should most definitely remember this interaction.

Aren't his words on you equally noncommittal?

This exchange, it fascinates me.

Can you expand on this?  What I saw was that ADK basically said entirely noncommittal stuff, and Shraeye only called him out for being noncommittal to McMc.  Why?  To me that indicates a level of arbitrarity in an argument's content: it only matters that there is an argument.  So the argument is artificially constructed. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 02:44:52 pm
Ok. I'm town doctor.

Well then.  If this is true, I'm all for ADK.

Who did you protect last night?

I protected Shraeye. Which in hindsight may not have been the best choice, but there was no way I would have guessed that scum would target dd.

And why did you think they would target Shraeye?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 03, 2014, 02:57:58 pm
Ok. I'm town doctor.

Well then.  If this is true, I'm all for ADK.

Who did you protect last night?

I protected Shraeye. Which in hindsight may not have been the best choice, but there was no way I would have guessed that scum would target dd.

And why did you think they would target Shraeye?

I find your skepticism on my claim forced and very un-townie . It's already been established that it would be suicide for scum to fake claim.

I will post more in depth when I have access to a computer instead of my phone.

vote: ww
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 03:01:18 pm
Ok. I'm town doctor.

Well then.  If this is true, I'm all for ADK.

Who did you protect last night?

I protected Shraeye. Which in hindsight may not have been the best choice, but there was no way I would have guessed that scum would target dd.

And why did you think they would target Shraeye?

I find your skepticism on my claim forced and very un-townie . It's already been established that it would be suicide for scum to fake claim.

I will post more in depth when I have access to a computer instead of my phone.

vote: ww

I'm not really skeptical, I believe you.  I actually was the one that stated it's better for scum not to fake claim.  But I do want to understand your thought process.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 03, 2014, 03:08:05 pm
Ok. I'm town doctor.

Well then.  If this is true, I'm all for ADK.

Who did you protect last night?

I protected Shraeye. Which in hindsight may not have been the best choice, but there was no way I would have guessed that scum would target dd.

And why did you think they would target Shraeye?

I find your skepticism on my claim forced and very un-townie . It's already been established that it would be suicide for scum to fake claim.

I will post more in depth when I have access to a computer instead of my phone.

vote: ww

I'm not really skeptical, I believe you.  I actually was the one that stated it's better for scum not to fake claim.  But I do want to understand your thought process.
Very well. I do believe this unvote
I am partially frustrated because I had a pretty long explanation that my phone browser lost.

I protected Shraeye because as (at the time) I saw him as an active member of town doing a good job of pressuring people and being an active poster. So I thought he might e a good candidate to protect. My other major choice was volt, who I was feeling a little scummy on at the end of the day. So I decided to choose Shraeye instead.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 03:31:33 pm
Ok. I'm town doctor.

AWESOME. Let's wait for counter-claims, but this makes me so happy. Turning a mislynch candidate into an IC. Best-case scenario. Yes.

This makes shraeye scummier.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 03:32:12 pm
Shraeye seemed towny to me before the fight, but his "trap" moves him into suspicious territory. mc seems a little scummy but mc always seems a little scummy, both my experiences playing with him I was certain he was scum and he ended up being town so I'm hesitant to vote for him. But I shouldn't be relying on meta knowledge, especially in a newbie game.

This is suspicious.  I have no "trap" set up.  mcmc did crazy stuff, I called him out.  then he did CRAZIER stuff.  And it just got worse from there. 

You're words on mcmc are the most waffling non-committal words of any commenter.  This is the way yuma came out as raerae's partner in Adventure Time mafia (a recent game that town won).  That position is very indicative of scum partner.  If mcmc flips scum, town should most definitely remember this interaction.

Aren't his words on you equally noncommittal?

This exchange, it fascinates me.

Can you expand on this?  What I saw was that ADK basically said entirely noncommittal stuff, and Shraeye only called him out for being noncommittal to McMc.  Why?  To me that indicates a level of arbitrarity in an argument's content: it only matters that there is an argument.  So the argument is artificially constructed.

I think there are strong odds the scum team is ADK/shraeye.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 03:33:30 pm
IG, I think if your choice of shraeye wasn't terrible. You'll always find town players would play as PRs differently, and that's ok.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 03:44:11 pm
faust, shraeye, ADK. Two of you are scum. One of you is town that I have a scum read on. I need whichever of you that is to convince me you're town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 03:44:51 pm
Especially if it turns out I'm wrong on WW/Nik (I'm probably not but hey, you make backup plans in life).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 05:20:39 pm
So here is something interesting.  This is back when McMc/Shraeye just started, but hadn't gotten very much heated:

Ichi-Conspiracy theories? Post count? Seems scummy to me...
I think the conspiracy theory is a stretch, but I don't think it's a scummy stretch. 

Post counts are things that people really like to analyze for some reason.  Voltaire likes them, yuma likes them.  I hate them.  I find them terribly useless.  But it's a bad idea to think that somebody is scummy just because they use them (but maybe you and I can form a club that calls all those people misguided; even if they say that we're the misguided ones...it'll be great fun...raerae's in our club, and she's hella tight).

Shraeye is coming out in defense of Ichi here, when suspicion on him was rising.  Given that Ichi is town, a scum Shraeye knows this.  At this point McMc had 2 votes and Ichi had 3.

So what I'm thinking is, would it have made sense for a scum Shraeye to cast suspicion of Ichi, hoping to either switch his wagon that day or cast enough doubt for a mislynch against Ichi on day 2?  Or would it make more sense for a scum Shraeye to throw up a defense so it doesn't look like he's just hunting for mislynches?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 05:23:39 pm
Huh? I don't get what you're saying. They're both town, and scum!shraeye would have no idea IG was the doc (or scum would have killed him last night).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 05:28:21 pm
Huh? I don't get what you're saying. They're both town, and scum!shraeye would have no idea IG was the doc (or scum would have killed him last night).

Okay I didn't write that very well.  What I'm saying is, this makes sense is Shraeye is town.  Then I'm double checking that: does it make sense if Shraeye is scum?  If he's scum, he doesn't know Ichi is the doctor, but he does know Ichi is town.

So what I'm getting at is, does this imply to us that Shraeye is town?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 05:29:50 pm
No. Scum may theoretically be ok with lynching any town player but they're going to have preferences beyond that, because they need to act like town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 05:58:00 pm
No. Scum may theoretically be ok with lynching any town player but they're going to have preferences beyond that, because they need to act like town.

Alright.. I'm trying to go back and read with the new knowledge.  I think ADK is scum, but I'm not sure between Faust and Shraeye.  I'm leaning towards Faust.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 06:01:06 pm
I need to read. I'd much rather lynch mcmc; i'm 100% positive of his scuminess.  He's been attacking me with nothing more than hot-button generic-scummy things that I'm not actually doing at all.  His position on me has jumped back and forth and also not been in line with any of the actual evidence.  He repeatedly refuses to defend or back up his statements that I've already pointed out are contradictory, instead resorting to ad hominem attacks and blatant AtE. 

His frustration could absolutely be legitimate.  No doubt.  But I'm sure that he is frustrated scum.  If we turn somewhere else and run up the doctor or the cop, we are screwing ourselves.  Hard.  There is no reason to do that in the face of such an overwhelming reason to lynch mcmc.

Shraeye deflects/is wishy-washy when I ask about ADK instead of mcmc.

Okay, that's interesting.. did he ever actually go back and do this reread and give an answer on ADK?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 03, 2014, 06:04:44 pm
IG, I think if your choice of shraeye wasn't terrible. You'll always find town players would play as PRs differently, and that's ok.

That's good to hear. I feel like the doc could be most useful in this setup if he could protect the cop, but unfortunately that isn't possible.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 03, 2014, 06:05:47 pm
Also. I think I am going to be sheeping Volt.

I agree that for sure at least one (likely two) out of : ADK, faust, or Shraeye is scum.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 06:06:16 pm
Okay, that's interesting.. did he ever actually go back and do this reread and give an answer on ADK?

Not to my knowledge.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 06:08:14 pm
Also. I think I am going to be sheeping Volt.

I agree that for sure at least one (likely two) out of : ADK, faust, or Shraeye is scum.

I'd prefer you don't place a vote for ADK yet if you were thinking of it.  That would be L-1, and I think too early, since pretty much only three of us have been responding.  I don't want someone to just hammer it and end this day super early.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 06:10:06 pm
Actually unvote. WW makes a good point about L-1, we want everyone to check in on the tiny chance IG is fakeclaiming scum at the very least. Also I want to look at scum team possibilities/probabilities and see if ADK is truly the best lynch for today (I mean probably but maybe shraeye or faust is actually better). And I want the one of them that is town to prove it!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 03, 2014, 06:12:53 pm
Also. I think I am going to be sheeping Volt.

I agree that for sure at least one (likely two) out of : ADK, faust, or Shraeye is scum.

I'd prefer you don't place a vote for ADK yet if you were thinking of it.  That would be L-1, and I think too early, since pretty much only three of us have been responding.  I don't want someone to just hammer it and end this day super early.
That's fine. Yeah nik + scum reads haven't posted almost at all. So I agree set should definitely here from them first. I don't think we have ADK lynch though. The others replies should help us decide.

PPE: 1
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 03, 2014, 06:17:54 pm
Also. I think I am going to be sheeping Volt.

I agree that for sure at least one (likely two) out of : ADK, faust, or Shraeye is scum.

I'd prefer you don't place a vote for ADK yet if you were thinking of it.  That would be L-1, and I think too early, since pretty much only three of us have been responding.  I don't want someone to just hammer it and end this day super early.
That's fine. Yeah nik + scum reads haven't posted almost at all. So I agree set we should definitely here from them first. I don't think we have to ADK lynch though. The others replies should help us decide.

PPE: 1
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Nik on April 03, 2014, 07:40:27 pm
Here are my opinions on people so far:
Nik-Town, obviously
WW-Town
Ichi-Since no one has counter claimed, Town.
ADK-I don't really understand why everybody is saying he's scum. Is there something I missed? So far, I've got a townie read.
Shraeye-Null
Faust-Null
Volitare-Personally, I still find him scum.
So actaully, I'm going back to my original vote. Vote:Volitare.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 07:54:11 pm
Nik, I really need you to re-read, because I think you're town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Nik on April 03, 2014, 08:33:09 pm
Nik, I really need you to re-read, because I think you're town.

If you're talking about me re-voting for you:
I think it is a bit scummy to be happy about a VT death. I might change my mind if you defended yourself, but so far, you haven't.
Also, I have re-read.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 08:47:51 pm
And did you find anything worth mentioning in a re-read?

Why do you think I, were I scum, would post that I was happy with a VT death? Why in the world would I do that? I, as town, was happy that none of our PRs died overnight. Yes, the doc could have blocked the kill, but the odds of a doc stopping a kill are actually really low.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 08:52:02 pm
People claim that posts like mine are scummy (comments about the NK at the start of the next day), but they're not. I've only ever made them as town. I was excited. I'm excited when I'm town and we're winning (and I think we are right now). We had two VT deaths, that's the better side of the most likely coin.

I'm even more excited right now because it turns out someone who had a decent chance of getting mislynched (IG) turns out to be the Doctor. That's perfect, because it increases our odds of finding scum.

I think I have the scum team down to 2 out of 3. I'm very happy about that.

I am a little frustrated that you are hung up on that one post, and haven't really given anything of content (really, you re-read the thread and this is the most you have to say?)

Here are my opinions on people so far:
Nik-Town, obviously
WW-Town
Ichi-Since no one has counter claimed, Town.
ADK-I don't really understand why everybody is saying he's scum. Is there something I missed? So far, I've got a townie read.
Shraeye-Null
Faust-Null
Volitare-Personally, I still find him scum.
So actaully, I'm going back to my original vote. Vote:Volitare.



But as frustrating as it is for me, it does kinda increase my town read on you. I've seen this sort of behavior before, and it's always come from new town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 08:53:34 pm
And I'm also frustrated because between shraeye, faust, and ADK, neither of them is doing anything to show that they're town, and that's really aggravating.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 09:04:04 pm
ADK-I don't really understand why everybody is saying he's scum. Is there something I missed? So far, I've got a townie read.

Why do you think ADK is town?

Here's a short summary of why ADK is scummy:

1. Process of elimination - I know that myself and IG are town. I am very confident Nik and WW are town. That leaves me with faust, shraeye, and ADK. They all have a 67% chance of being scum in my eyes by default.
2. The way he attacks other players (pointed out by DD, who died)*
3. ADK looks very scummy when you consider how shraeye, another scummy player, has interacted with or commented about him. See my post about shraeye shrugging off my suggestion of lynching ADK instead of mcmc.

*here's the post

What I think is more surprising is that ADK, throughout this entire game, keeps only attacking people while defending people. This seems like a good ploy for scum too. He is able to defend a player, say "no they're not being scummy!" While flipping it around and attacking the person who is was attacking first. It allows hi to seem good to the town, while not being too aggressive, and he still gets to create confusion and mislynch.

I brought up his meta history. He shows another game he has played and said he's now just paranoid, but I don't think that really follows. If he was really paranoid of early mislynch es, he wouldn't be making these obviously faulty cases against people (like accusing Ichimaru gin of being too generic when he attacked me, accusing me of making a conspiracy (and them realizing he didn't read carefully enough and attacking Ichimaru gin), and now he's protecting MCMC and switching his vote to a very unstable case against Voltaire.)

I think he's very scummy, maybe even more than MCMC.

vote: ADK

It is entirely possible that faust/shraeye could be the scum team, which is why I want to hear more from ADK.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on April 03, 2014, 09:07:19 pm
So I have no IDEA what. the. jack. you are talking about.  I am in no way more "in the moment" now than I was then.  You're just making a hack-job of pretending to have a reason for reads.  Scum. Found.

vote: mcmc

shraeye, what do you think of the mcmc wagon/interactions now that he's flipped town?
I haven't had a reread chance, but I'm definitely planning to do that soon.  Real life got super busy, still is, will be for another few days.  I'm eager to reread, and compare notes against your reads list.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Nik on April 03, 2014, 09:09:06 pm
ADK-I don't really understand why everybody is saying he's scum. Is there something I missed? So far, I've got a townie read.

Why do you think ADK is town?

Here's a short summary of why ADK is scummy:

1. Process of elimination - I know that myself and IG are town. I am very confident Nik and WW are town. That leaves me with faust, shraeye, and ADK. They all have a 67% chance of being scum in my eyes by default.
2. The way he attacks other players (pointed out by DD, who died)*
3. ADK looks very scummy when you consider how shraeye, another scummy player, has interacted with or commented about him. See my post about shraeye shrugging off my suggestion of lynching ADK instead of mcmc.

*here's the post

What I think is more surprising is that ADK, throughout this entire game, keeps only attacking people while defending people. This seems like a good ploy for scum too. He is able to defend a player, say "no they're not being scummy!" While flipping it around and attacking the person who is was attacking first. It allows hi to seem good to the town, while not being too aggressive, and he still gets to create confusion and mislynch.

I brought up his meta history. He shows another game he has played and said he's now just paranoid, but I don't think that really follows. If he was really paranoid of early mislynch es, he wouldn't be making these obviously faulty cases against people (like accusing Ichimaru gin of being too generic when he attacked me, accusing me of making a conspiracy (and them realizing he didn't read carefully enough and attacking Ichimaru gin), and now he's protecting MCMC and switching his vote to a very unstable case against Voltaire.)

I think he's very scummy, maybe even more than MCMC.

vote: ADK

It is entirely possible that faust/shraeye could be the scum team, which is why I want to hear more from ADK.
Alright, I'm going to Unvote. I'm still not sure about you, Volitare, but for now, you're less scummy.
Now, it's really between Faust, ADK, and Shraeye.
I'm also not really sure about you three. Faust is lurking, ADK, after reading the quote you see up there, seems scummy, and Shraeye is null. Could at least one of you post? (Yes, I know Shraeye just posted, all he said was that he won't be able to post.)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 03, 2014, 09:13:00 pm
Ok. I'm town doctor.

AWESOME. Let's wait for counter-claims, but this makes me so happy. Turning a mislynch candidate into an IC. Best-case scenario. Yes.

This makes shraeye scummier.
I do not follow. Not one bit.  Explain.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 09:15:33 pm
Yay, shraeye is here!

Also, I never did this but that's fine because now we have IG to add.

Day One
mcmcsalot (5): shraeye, Voltaire, Ichimaru Gin, Nik, faust
Ichimaru Gin (2): Witherweaver, mcmcsalot
A Drowned Kernel (1) : Delirious Deleuze
Voltaire (1): A Drowned Kernel

(and this is how it looks like from my perspective, where orange means I am assuming the person is town but don't know for sure):

Day One
mcmcsalot (5): shraeye, Voltaire, Ichimaru Gin, Nik, faust
Ichimaru Gin (2): Witherweaver, mcmcsalot
A Drowned Kernel (1) : Delirious Deleuze
Voltaire (1): A Drowned Kernel
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 09:18:03 pm
Ok. I'm town doctor.

AWESOME. Let's wait for counter-claims, but this makes me so happy. Turning a mislynch candidate into an IC. Best-case scenario. Yes.

This makes shraeye scummier.
I do not follow. Not one bit.  Explain.

1. IG was a likely mislynch candidate. Turns out he's the doc. That's awesome.
2. You started talking about how scummy IG would be if mcmc flipped town at the end of D1.

shraeye, what do you think about ichi?
Ichi's voting patterns vis-a-vis mcmc seem strange.  Definitely makes him worth looking at.

If what you said were the case that would leave. (random order)

Ichimaru Gin
Wandering Winder
Delerious Deleuze
Voltaire
Nik
faust

So who would my scum partner be? faust?
Also, I can understand if this is just an important to get your reads down now if you happen to get killed tonight (something I remember Shraeye talking about earlier).
I dislike defensive questions like "if I'm scum, who's my partner?"  It's not a valid defense, since scum are trying to appear unconnected to eachother. 

This post as well; for some reason I get wary when people's reads line up so much with mine. 


Ichi, can you tell me what you remember why you put faust high on your suspicion list in that last post?

I like that faust/Ichi are both happy with eachotehr's lynches.  And I'm not really sure what gives them that read.  faust justified his on Ichi a bit; ichi justified his on faust pretty badly I think.

In a reads list, Ichi shifts faust from null to scummy, when really there wasn't any indication in any of ichi's posts between those two reads-posts of reasons for that switch.

If mcmc is indeed town, we should look to faust/Ichi.

Ichi/faust are a pair worth looking into tomorrow if mcmc is town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 09:33:06 pm
I'm just going to go out and say that if scumteam turns out to be Voltaire/Nik, then I am seriously outclassed in this Mafia thing and they just pulled off a Walter-White-esque heist.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 09:41:30 pm
I'm just going to go out and say that if scumteam turns out to be Voltaire/Nik, then I am seriously outclassed in this Mafia thing and they just pulled off a Walter-White-esque heist.

I was trying to find some sort of reassuring Breaking Bad meme/quote to post, but since I'm not a fan the best I could do was this:

(http://img.pandawhale.com/post-16402-Breaking-Bad-Grumpy-Cat-meme-S-GZIM.jpeg)

I also gotta say I find it strange that there have been a crazy number of people viewing this thread today with little input.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 03, 2014, 10:00:19 pm
The possibility of a shraeye/faust team, or ww and a vet, are something that I'm going to have reread and look carefully for. But my primary stance is that Volt is far and away my biggest suspect.

Part of it might admittedly be my bias after playing the Super Mario Bros game with Ashersky. In that game I watched a very skilled scum player brazenly push mislynch after mislynch. And the hell of it was, the wagons were never started by him. He waited until two townies got into a fight, then jumped on and fed the flames, all while parading around the excuse that "scum would never be this obvious". To me that looks exactly like what happened on day one. Voltaire waited, not making many waves, until enough newbies had jumped on the mc wagon, then came out in support of it without much solid reasoning. Today, I see him strongly driving another mislynch, and one that's fairly easily, given that a number of people already thought I was scummy. There's a chance that he's town, but it's seeming increasingly unlikely to me. What scares me the most is Ichi stating that he intends to sheep whatever Volt votes, which isn't a good attitude for confirmed town to have. If we mislynch today, scum only needs one town to follow them tomorrow, so Ichi, if I'm not around then, promise we you won't just auto-vote on Volt's side.

As for defending other players, yes, that is something that I do, probably to my detriment. In Adventure Time, I got into a ton of trouble as a townie when a player I defended early on turned out to be scum. Early in the game, when there isn't much interaction to go off of, it's a lot easier for people to get roped into mislynches and for scum to gain control of the game's narrative.

What I've learned from my short experience from this game is that I need to lessen the influence other players have on me and trust my own reads. And right now, my reads are pointing to Voltaire. Is shraeye a scum candidate? Possibly, but the fight between him and mc seemed more townie on townie to me, and it looks to me more like Volt saw a mislynch and jumped in. shraeye could be his partner, which terrifies me a little, but it's starting to look like the most likely possibility. Otherwise it's faust or WW; faust has been absent, so signs might point to him, and WW I have a hard time reading.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 10:02:43 pm
As for defending other players, yes, that is something that I do, probably to my detriment. In Adventure Time, I got into a ton of trouble as a townie when a player I defended early on turned out to be scum. Early in the game, when there isn't much interaction to go off of, it's a lot easier for people to get roped into mislynches and for scum to gain control of the game's narrative.

So why do you defend those players?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 10:08:13 pm
Cool. So ADK opts to just go straight at me. It's an interesting choice, because taking out someone who seems to suspect him and his teammate would be his best-case scenario - but it's risky, as I think only Nik has also expressed suspicion of me.

If ADK is town, well...

Is shraeye a scum candidate? Possibly, but the fight between him and mc seemed more townie on townie to me, and it looks to me more like Volt saw a mislynch and jumped in. shraeye could be his partner, which terrifies me a little, but it's starting to look like the most likely possibility. Otherwise it's faust or WW; faust has been absent, so signs might point to him, and WW I have a hard time reading.

you're hedging like hell, and this is what I mean when I say it's super-frustrating when you, shraeye, and faust are all super-scummy.

But we do have two lynches left, and I'm 100% certain we can hit scum. We might even get cop results tomorrow, so...

...once I hear from shraeye and faust, I'm ready to vote.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 03, 2014, 10:11:52 pm
In that game I watched a very skilled scum player brazenly push mislynch after mislynch. And the hell of it was, the wagons were never started by him. He waited until two townies got into a fight, then jumped on and fed the flames, all while parading around the excuse that "scum would never be this obvious".

This actually seems more like Shraeye to me.
Although I must admit, Volt being town isn't a foregone conclusion. There is definitely a part of me that is paranoid that he is scum--although I don't exactly have specific reasons.


What scares me the most is Ichi stating that he intends to sheep whatever Volt votes, which isn't a good attitude for confirmed town to have. If we mislynch today, scum only needs one town to follow them tomorrow, so Ichi, if I'm not around then, promise we you won't just auto-vote on Volt's side.

I must say I really do agree with this. Even though I may not be that experienced, I am the IC now. . .so actually should probably be more independent since I really only know that I'm not scum. So I didn't really think a lot when posting that. . . Yeah, I won't just auto-vote with Volt.

ADK actually makes some really good points here. I'd like to hear from faust, and more from Shraeye, but for now I'm feeling a little townier on him.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 03, 2014, 10:13:38 pm
Again, I'm worried about mislynches. After adventure time, where a quickly formed day one wagon turned out to indeed be on a scum, I've learned that that kind of thing isn't always bad, but I'm still antsy about it. I end up playing defensively, which I realize isn't the best way to play, but it's a reflex.

So should I not have defended mc? I mean I wasn't exactly screaming against lynch, but I definitely thought there were better ones, and if I had been more vocal and more certain in my cases, maybe we would've hit a better one. So obviously my play style is lacking here.

PPE: I don't see how I'm hedging like hell, I'm super confident that you're scum. I'm not certain who your partner is, and I think that's because they're sitting back and letting you do the dirty work.

PPE 2: Shraeye was the one who started the case on mc, admittedly on somewhat flimsy pretexts. But IMO, it's townier to start a case on someone, it's scummier to jump on one when you already know you have support.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 10:15:32 pm
Paranoia is a good and useful tool for town. You just can't let it reach a point where it prevents you from forming reads.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 03, 2014, 10:17:07 pm
PPE 2: Shraeye was the one who started the case on mc, admittedly on somewhat flimsy pretexts. But IMO, it's townier to start a case on someone, it's scummier to jump on one when you already know you have support.

I was moreso focused on the similarities of just how sure Shraeye was on mcmc, e.g. "100% sure" and then the idea that "scum wouldn't be this blatant" was brought up. But I do see how starting the case is more townie. Still, if this is true, scum!Shraeye could have done everything that he did about mcmc and gotten away with it up until now even when mcmc flipped town. . .so that's interesting.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 03, 2014, 10:19:56 pm
Ok. I'm town doctor.

AWESOME. Let's wait for counter-claims, but this makes me so happy. Turning a mislynch candidate into an IC. Best-case scenario. Yes.

This makes shraeye scummier.
I do not follow. Not one bit.  Explain.

1. IG was a likely mislynch candidate. Turns out he's the doc. That's awesome.
2. You started talking about how scummy IG would be if mcmc flipped town at the end of D1.
So you're honestly saying that because I've stated suspicion on the person who ended up claiming Doc, that I'm scummier for it?  THAT would suppose that I knew he would claim doc before making my case.  That is nonsensical.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 10:21:15 pm
I'm saying you're scum setting up multiple mislynches on D1, and it didn't work because your next mislynch turned out to be the doc, something you could not have foreseen.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 10:27:02 pm
I really want answers to these.

It seems like Shraeye is being very aggressive and spreading confusion.  Maybe this is just his play style.. I'm not sure.  My read right now is scum.

He's asking a lot of questions and analyzing people's motivations, which I read as a more towny trait. shraeye's probably my strongest town read so far.

Why exactly do you think shraeye is town? Shraeye asks almost entirely questions as scum.

I don't have the same meta knowledge of him that you do so I won't know about that. I'm basing my town read on him off of his questions seeming pointed and insightful, though the thing with analyzing WW's post and "mc was just the first to post about it" does seem a little off.

ADK, can you point me to the D1 posts prior to this where shraeye is "pointed" and "insightful"? Especially if you think the WW post/mcmc thing was "a little off".

So I have no IDEA what. the. jack. you are talking about.  I am in no way more "in the moment" now than I was then.  You're just making a hack-job of pretending to have a reason for reads.  Scum. Found.

vote: mcmc

shraeye, what do you think of the mcmc wagon/interactions now that he's flipped town?

I need to read. I'd much rather lynch mcmc; i'm 100% positive of his scuminess.  He's been attacking me with nothing more than hot-button generic-scummy things that I'm not actually doing at all.  His position on me has jumped back and forth and also not been in line with any of the actual evidence.  He repeatedly refuses to defend or back up his statements that I've already pointed out are contradictory, instead resorting to ad hominem attacks and blatant AtE. 

His frustration could absolutely be legitimate.  No doubt.  But I'm sure that he is frustrated scum.  If we turn somewhere else and run up the doctor or the cop, we are screwing ourselves.  Hard.  There is no reason to do that in the face of such an overwhelming reason to lynch mcmc.

Shraeye deflects/is wishy-washy when I ask about ADK instead of mcmc.

So, shraeye, help me out. Convince me you're town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 10:27:46 pm
Obviously numbers 2 and 3 are the ones for you to reply two. These three overall are what is pointing me to a shraeye/ADK team as most likely, though.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 10:30:47 pm
Would scum ADK really want to accuse Voltaire?  So far Ichi and myself have basically been agreeing 100% with him, and even though Nik has voted against him, he's also just immediately gone alone with whatever Voltaire said.  ADK would have a really hard time getting everyone to turn on Volt.  Much easier to play a read against Shraeye who had a very aggressive argument against McMc or Faust who has been, like, omnilurk. 

Maybe he thinks that would be too obvious a play, or maybe he's just giving his honest reads.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 10:35:50 pm
That's possible, yes. That's what I mean when I say, someone prove they're town to me.

He might not want to go after shraeye if shraeye is his partner.

Whoever the two scum are, if they're truly 2 of the 3 I've identified, also need to face the fact that we have at least 2 chances left. If they get us to mislynch today, they still have to deal with the fact that (if they don't kill me at night) I'll still be alive and I'll almost certainly only vote for them tomorrow, and I've done a good job of convincing my fellow townies that my lynch pool is the right one. And the cop will come forward with his result, as long as he's not killed overnight.

So I actually feel better about the fact that ADK has come after me, and shraeye subtly (OMGUSing me). Because that's really what they have to do.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 03, 2014, 10:38:02 pm
Volt: I was talking about here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10647.msg359601#msg359601), where shraeye's real entrance into the game was a series of questions directed at myself and others questioning the reasoning behind certain comments and questions. That struck me as being townie, as getting people to explain themselves keeps them honest and is helpful for later rereads.

PPE: On the other hand, if you're scum, you've got everything lined up nicely for you. So that's nice for you, I guess.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 10:40:16 pm
Volt: I was talking about here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10647.msg359601#msg359601), where shraeye's real entrance into the game was a series of questions directed at myself and others questioning the reasoning behind certain comments and questions. That struck me as being townie, as getting people to explain themselves keeps them honest and is helpful for later rereads.

Those were all at mcmc, which you found "a little off".
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 03, 2014, 10:41:51 pm
Would scum ADK really want to accuse Voltaire?  So far Ichi and myself have basically been agreeing 100% with him, and even though Nik has voted against him, he's also just immediately gone alone with whatever Voltaire said.  ADK would have a really hard time getting everyone to turn on Volt.  Much easier to play a read against Shraeye who had a very aggressive argument against McMc or Faust who has been, like, omnilurk. 

Maybe he thinks that would be too obvious a play, or maybe he's just giving his honest reads.

This.
I am just so torn because having Volt be town is just so. . .convenient--what with him being a vet and a really good town player. I'm an IC now, but am having a really hard time deciding who is town and who is scum.

For now, I feel really, really sure that ww is town. Nik, I'm not sure. It seems like he has a fair amount of interactions with Voltaire. ADK's last couple posts make me feel a little townier on him. Shraeye is more scummy to me, and faust hasn't posted at all. . .

I can't do jack tonight, but I think I want to get more of what I think since there's a good chance scum will kill me unless they feel like they've got a lock on the cop.

PPE: 3
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 10:43:14 pm
IG, town is doing well. You are the IC. I'm town, and scum's only chance is to make you distrust me. Their only chance. Re-read me. I'm confident you'll see I'm town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 10:45:22 pm
Or, better version of my most recent post, is my second-most recent post:

Whoever the two scum are, if they're truly 2 of the 3 I've identified, also need to face the fact that we have at least 2 chances left. If they get us to mislynch today, they still have to deal with the fact that (if they don't kill me at night) I'll still be alive and I'll almost certainly only vote for them tomorrow, and I've done a good job of convincing my fellow townies that my lynch pool is the right one. And the cop will come forward with his result, as long as he's not killed overnight.

So I actually feel better about the fact that ADK has come after me, and shraeye subtly (OMGUSing me). Because that's really what they have to do.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 03, 2014, 11:00:21 pm
If mcmc is scum, then ADK deserves a good hard look.

i'm disapointed if that's true, you just had so many bad responses to everything i had.  Ichi/faust are a pair worth looking into tomorrow if mcmc is town.

if mcmc is scum and still trolling us, I think ADK is the place to look tomorrow.

If the scum-team is ADK/Shraeye, these are pretty interesting. You push a lynch on mcmc while all the while making vague either/or statements all to well knowing his flip. While at the same time setting up me and faust as mislynches for the next day. Hmm.

Has anyone considered a faust/Shraeye scumteam?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 03, 2014, 11:05:46 pm
My partical re-read of Volt.
I think it would be a good cover to be extremely helpful to the new players.  It's going to be hard to want to lynch the guy who has been helping you out and showing you the ropes.
Completely agree with this.

No, they would say "I'm the Cop" or "I'm the Doctor". (the comparison to the role "Named Townie" is in that we'd simply care that they were the Doc or Cop, not necessarily about any results they have)

Imagine this scenario: We lynch scum today. A VT dies tonight. If the Cop and Doc decide to claim tomorrow, our lynch pool would be down to 4 from the VTs point-of-view (7 living players, 2 are our PRs, they know they themselves are town) instead of 7. Now, I don't think that's worth it. But, imagine that we then lynch a VT, and a VT dies N2. D3 dawns with 5 living players. Say our PRs claim then. Our lynch pool for the VTs goes from 4 to 2 - and the Cop has a N2 result to claim. Which, if it's a town result on one of the VTs, wins the game.

(so, you say, why won't scum counter-claim one of the PRs? Because even if they get us to lynch the real cop, they kill someone at night, we still have D4 with 3 alive, 1 scum, and the scum is obvious.)

So that's a situation where it makes sense for the Doctor and Cop to claim immediately (D3, no PRs have died). There might be others. There might not be. Just something for them to think about. The decision on when to claim or not claim should always be made in the best judgement of the PR themselves, because any advice from the town is prone to scum manipulation.

does no one think shaeye is scummy for how persistent in trying to get me lynched he is?

Yes and no. Yes because, well, it definitely seems that way.
No, because, well, why in the world would scum go all-in on a lynch like that?

This quote is interesting as it is similar to the case ADK is pushing on volt. And one that I unknowingly referenced just a few posts ago.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 03, 2014, 11:08:39 pm
I really, really want to here from faust. His thoughts I think will really help in terms of what he thinks of Volt, his reaction to my claim, etc.

For now, I feel that faust is really scummy if he's been reading but not posting. Scum wants to deny us information now, and I feel like we'd be able to see connections better if faust would start posting more.

Until then, vote: faust
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 03, 2014, 11:09:39 pm
Volt: I was talking about here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10647.msg359601#msg359601), where shraeye's real entrance into the game was a series of questions directed at myself and others questioning the reasoning behind certain comments and questions. That struck me as being townie, as getting people to explain themselves keeps them honest and is helpful for later rereads.

Those were all at mcmc, which you found "a little off".

Just in that first post. Further down he asks questions of you, me, and WW.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 11:14:40 pm
Has anyone considered a faust/Shraeye scumteam?

Yes. They have some interactions D1. I can't tell if they make them more or less likely to be scum partners than the POE would indicate.

If people decide they like that more than ADK/shraeye, I would consider lynching shraeye and figuring out ADK/faust tomorrow.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 03, 2014, 11:23:22 pm
The thing is Shraeye's actions make a lot of sense as both scum and town.  I originally thought his method of asking a bunch of questions and stirring up confusion (whether or not he intended to, people were confused by his first barrage of posts) was scummy, though a number of people argued that it was something a town would do.  WIFOM then implies it's something scum would do too.

So for town it forces people to contribute and answer things, which helps with finding inconsistencies and such, as was pointed out.  For scum it helps get wagons started, because people start to look at all the little things someone says seeing if they can find a scum slip.  And scum can pretend to see those things.  So, motivation as scum and town.

Then the being sure you've caught scum and pushing the wagon through thing.  I see it as scummy.  But there is of course the argument that Volt and ADK have said, which is, basically, why would a scum want to risk so much attention?  But, then, WIFOM again, that's a perfect cover for being town while pushing through a mislynch.  So it's hard to judge. 

It would be interesting if there were some game records where Shraeye was town and went 100% on a particular player.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 03, 2014, 11:30:35 pm
The thing is Shraeye's actions make a lot of sense as both scum and town.

Welcome to my world.  :(
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Nik on April 04, 2014, 06:30:08 am
Vote: Faust. He's lurking.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Teproc on April 04, 2014, 06:47:27 am
Vote Count 2.2:

faust (2): Ichimaru Gin, Nik
A Drowned Kernel (1) : Witherweaver

Not Voting (4): A Drowned Kernel, shraeye, faust, Voltaire

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 2 ends at 4:00 p.m. on April 8, 2014.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 04, 2014, 07:19:26 am
IG, town is doing well. You are the IC. I'm town, and scum's only chance is to make you distrust me. Their only chance. Re-read me. I'm confident you'll see I'm town.
Volt, you have to know that this is really heavy appeal to emotion.  If you are town and your assumptions are all true (you said Nik and WW are town?), this could be correct.  I'm not sure, I really don't have the mental time to insert myself fully into this day until after an important research meeting on Monday.  But if you are scum, this just reads like heavy-handed manipulation.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 04, 2014, 07:26:55 am
I really want answers to these.

It seems like Shraeye is being very aggressive and spreading confusion.  Maybe this is just his play style.. I'm not sure.  My read right now is scum.

He's asking a lot of questions and analyzing people's motivations, which I read as a more towny trait. shraeye's probably my strongest town read so far.

Why exactly do you think shraeye is town? Shraeye asks almost entirely questions as scum.

I don't have the same meta knowledge of him that you do so I won't know about that. I'm basing my town read on him off of his questions seeming pointed and insightful, though the thing with analyzing WW's post and "mc was just the first to post about it" does seem a little off.

ADK, can you point me to the D1 posts prior to this where shraeye is "pointed" and "insightful"? Especially if you think the WW post/mcmc thing was "a little off".

So I have no IDEA what. the. jack. you are talking about.  I am in no way more "in the moment" now than I was then.  You're just making a hack-job of pretending to have a reason for reads.  Scum. Found.

vote: mcmc

shraeye, what do you think of the mcmc wagon/interactions now that he's flipped town?

I need to read. I'd much rather lynch mcmc; i'm 100% positive of his scuminess.  He's been attacking me with nothing more than hot-button generic-scummy things that I'm not actually doing at all.  His position on me has jumped back and forth and also not been in line with any of the actual evidence.  He repeatedly refuses to defend or back up his statements that I've already pointed out are contradictory, instead resorting to ad hominem attacks and blatant AtE. 

His frustration could absolutely be legitimate.  No doubt.  But I'm sure that he is frustrated scum.  If we turn somewhere else and run up the doctor or the cop, we are screwing ourselves.  Hard.  There is no reason to do that in the face of such an overwhelming reason to lynch mcmc.

Shraeye deflects/is wishy-washy when I ask about ADK instead of mcmc.

So, shraeye, help me out. Convince me you're town.
Question #2...what I said yesterday night is still true.  I haven't reread in the light of mcmc's flip, and I won't have time to until Monday.  I have not even considered the implications of mcmc being town outside of my day1 speculation.

Question/statement #3. 
Volt's original question to me:
shraeye, would you be fine lynching ADK instead?
My answer definitely is not wishy-washy.  I thought I clearly stated that I really really only wanted mcmc.  I was 100% convinced of his scumminess, and I'm not moving off of a 100% except for another 100%.  And it's not an accurate light to say I'm deflecting either.  That would be a scenario where you asked me only to describe my feelings on ADK, and instead I talked on and on about mcmc.  You asked me if I wanted ADK instead of mcmc.  In my mind the comparison is easy.  100% scummy vs. anything else.  I wanted mcmc only.

Those are two pretty scum-flavored words to describe what I was doing, which was simply saying "no, I don't want ADK as much as I want mcmc; I'm sure mcmc is scum."
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 04, 2014, 11:22:21 am
IG, town is doing well. You are the IC. I'm town, and scum's only chance is to make you distrust me. Their only chance. Re-read me. I'm confident you'll see I'm town.
Volt, you have to know that this is really heavy appeal to emotion.  If you are town and your assumptions are all true (you said Nik and WW are town?), this could be correct.  I'm not sure, I really don't have the mental time to insert myself fully into this day until after an important research meeting on Monday.  But if you are scum, this just reads like heavy-handed manipulation.

Yep, it's appeal to emotion. It's also correct. But I don't care how IG thinks about me personally, the important part is for him to re-read me so he feels confident in me.

Note how shraeye is still opting for the subtle way of throwing dirt on me - reasonable tone, ending with "heavy-handed manipulation."

So, shraeye, if you're town and the team is faust/ADK, please show that to me.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 04, 2014, 11:23:45 am
Well, you were 100% wrong, so what I'm asking of you is that you reconsider. Which, I humbly suggest, you really need to do.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 04, 2014, 12:01:06 pm
Re-read complete! Note that I don't comment on everything that happened, just stuff I think is worth noting. Also, I'll look at the D1 wagon (the final vote count) later.

faust - complains that the game started out slow when he re-appears, despite his first few posts being "help the newbies" posts and having done nothing himself to move the game along. Casts lurker vote on shraeye. Casts lurker vote on Nik.


ADK - is cool as silk (what) to mcmc's vote on him, and does the "if we're making serious votes now I'll unvote" statement (he's the first to start the string of unvotes [was voting IG]). The post is here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10647.msg359463#msg359463). I get a tiny scummy vibe from it, he hedges like crazy (townie) but throws up lots of empty content (scummy). Expresses big town read on shraeye. Says he's "pointed" and "insightful" somehow. Votes Ichi for his "conspiracy theory". Votes for me after I come out in favor of lynching mcmc.


I think there is some more worth noting.  Both ADK and Faust seem to do a pretty great job on Day 1 of hedging suspicions and throwing out a lot of "seems kinda towny," and "seems kinda scummy" vibes.  Let's look at votes:

Faust:
(1) RVS Nik
(2) Votes Shraeye, for motivation to participate (this is where we were transitioning out of RVS)
(3) Votes Nik again for lurking, following Ichi's vote
(4) Votes Ichi for constructing an artificial case against DeDe
<Disappears for like four pages until Voltaire calls him out>
<brings up he's tempted to vote McMc because McMc claimed vanilla town.  Very little to mention on McMc before this except to say he's not quite sure what to make of the fight.  Hedge a slight scum/slight town against McMc I believe>
<This post:
It is interesting how this doesn't feel like a newbie game at all. Good work, everyone!

After catching up, my reads now look like this:

Ichimaru - still scummy. All my previous points still hold, and he's done nothing to make himself look townie.
mcmc - scummy. The VT claim on top of everything else... let me state again why VT is a horrible claim for town to make: it accomplishes two things: 1) Scum knows who they don't need to lynch. 2) You will never be night killed. Scum loves an excuse for never being night killed. Town has no reason to give scum this information.
ADK - scummy. Mostly a feeling from his latest post. Also isn't very active or memorable, so he doesn't make a bad lynch

Nik - lurking, sheeping and slightly scummy for that. He's the only one here why acts like I would expect a newbie to act though, and this may well come from newbie!town.

Voltaire - null. He's pretty much his normal self, without any standout interactions that lead me to think either way about him. I do want to keep him alive today though.
Witherweaver - null. I don't really get why people find him particularly townie, but didn't see much scummy stuff either.

shraeye - slight town. I think he is making sense and putting strong reads out there and sticking to them. Scum is usually more afraid of such commitment.
DeDe - town. My strongest town read, actually. Posts seem sincere, good activity, not afraid of stating reads... it may be masterful newbie!scum play, but I don't think so.
>
<Intent to hammer McMc>
(5) Votes and hammers McMc

He was never really vocal against anyone except Ichi.  Against McMc he says "the VT claim on top of everything else," but he never really established what "everything else" is.  He only ever said before that Shraeye comes off as slightly more towny in the Shraeye vs. McMc argument.

Hammering here seems very safe.  He established some doubt against McMc and then established the VT claim as a perfectly valid reason to hammer, even if he doesn't believe McMc is scum, which he never made a case for until McMc claimed VT.

He also put out some "scummy reads" on ADK, which is a good cover if they're partners.

I'm going to try to do a similar analysis of ADK's votes/reads.  In my recollection, ADK comes off as *very* hedgey in everything he said.. also voted against Ichi, mentioned some scum reads and put up a few defenses for people.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 04, 2014, 01:18:41 pm
Being suspicious of Ichi before he claimed shouldn't be considered automatically. I was going off of my reads on him.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 04, 2014, 01:19:40 pm
Being suspicious of Ichi before he claimed shouldn't be considered automatically. I was going off of my reads on him.

I'm saying, this is another confirmed town, and shraeye looks like he was setting up multiple mislynches.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 04, 2014, 01:28:53 pm
Being suspicious of Ichi before he claimed shouldn't be considered automatically. I was going off of my reads on him.

I'm saying, this is another confirmed town, and shraeye looks like he was setting up multiple mislynches.

I'm not sure Shraeye was setting up Ichi any more than anyone else.  I voted against Ichi, and ADK and Faust both made cases against him. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 04, 2014, 01:30:22 pm
I mean, it's not a smoking gun, obviously. But to me, shraeye was saying looking more at Ichi (town) and faust (scum candidate). So that's fishy, since shraeye himself is a scum candidate.

Look, there's nothing right now that says "It's absolutely these 2 guys" but we have 2 shots left, a huge change tomorrow with the cop, and 3 candidates. Again, we're in a good spot.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 04, 2014, 01:44:16 pm
I mean, it's not a smoking gun, obviously. But to me, shraeye was saying looking more at Ichi (town) and faust (scum candidate). So that's fishy, since shraeye himself is a scum candidate.

Look, there's nothing right now that says "It's absolutely these 2 guys" but we have 2 shots left, a huge change tomorrow with the cop, and 3 candidates. Again, we're in a good spot.

Faust was exactly setting up Ichi and ADK (also scum candidate) while "resigning" to hammer McMc. So the same on that regard. 

ADK also voted for Ichi earlier, and later said Ichi came off looking "scummier than I remember" during a reread.  He says something similar about DeDe, also confirmed town.  And then he says you look the scummiest and throws a vote against you.  A very safe place to put his vote if he's scum, because no one was looking at you and no one will come looking for him on the wagon against McMc, which was a pretty certain lynch by that point.  He's also no longer on Ichi's wagon, which was the only other lynch that had a chance of happening if McMc's somehow broke down.

Some of that last part was slightly tangential.  My main point is that Faust, ADK, and Shraeye are all equally "guilty" on the "setting up Ichi for a mislynch" front.  This certainly doesn't mean Shraeye is town, just that I don't think the argument can't be used to show he's more scummy than the other two.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 04, 2014, 01:47:30 pm
OK, fair point.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 04, 2014, 03:31:42 pm
We need input from Faust.  It's been over 24 hours.  I get that he's busy and, I think, in a different time zone, so we shouldn't hold the lack of input against him.  But we do need something from him.

I'd like to hear more from ADK and Shraeye, too.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 04, 2014, 04:47:37 pm
Hey, I'm here. Sorry for not participating as much as usual, I've just been really busy. But now I have some free time at hand. So...

Voltaire is obviously the most standout voice this Day. It is good that he's driving this game forward, obviously, since noone else will, but it also leaves him in a very powerful position should he be scum. So that's what we really need to figure out. I guess he is my top reread priority.

I can agree with Voltaire that Ichi's claim helps us a lot. Getting the IC is really nice here, especially because I had Ichi as one of my top scumreads.

Has anyone done wagon analysis on mcmc btw? I think that would be helpful. I'll put it on my to-do list.

With Ichi conf!town, my gut says we should look at ADK. I guess a reread here is in order too. Scheduled.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 04, 2014, 05:08:01 pm
Hey, I'm here. Sorry for not participating as much as usual, I've just been really busy. But now I have some free time at hand. So...

Voltaire is obviously the most standout voice this Day. It is good that he's driving this game forward, obviously, since noone else will, but it also leaves him in a very powerful position should he be scum. So that's what we really need to figure out. I guess he is my top reread priority.

I can agree with Voltaire that Ichi's claim helps us a lot. Getting the IC is really nice here, especially because I had Ichi as one of my top scumreads.

Has anyone done wagon analysis on mcmc btw? I think that would be helpful. I'll put it on my to-do list.

With Ichi conf!town, my gut says we should look at ADK. I guess a reread here is in order too. Scheduled.

Good, I'm happy you're here.  I'm interested in hearing what you have to say.  I agree that Voltaire being scum is extremely bad for us.  Voltaire being town is quite good for us.  If Voltaire were scum, who would his partner be?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 04, 2014, 05:35:48 pm
So, I kind of like theorel's scumscore thing, let me try something like that. Ichi is town, and I am town, so everyone else has a 2/5 chance of being scum. We'll start the scumscore at 40 then, I guess.

Now let's look at Voltaire.

#91 - the first read he states is a town read on mcmc. Considering that he helped lynching him later, +1
#102 - says new scum are "timid with their votes", but immediately weakens this by saying it's a vague statement. I think scum are a bit more concerned with puttig what they say into perspective. +1
#148 - defends shraeye's playstyle, says he might be an easy mislynch because of that and he will not vote him. Seems townie. -2
#156 - says "I know shraeye's not my scum partner", something I doubt scum would say. -2
#233 - votes me with a very weak reason where it is hard for me to defend myself. Call it OMGUS, but +1
#266 - wants to lynch ADK "much rather" than mcmc. Considering how the day ended, +1
#297 - here he is leaning towards lynching mcmc. It is much unclear to me what changed his mind.
#317 - now switching to ADK after he attacked him. +1
#370 - does not bother to find reasons for lynching mcmc on his own. +1
#377 - now he wants to lynch Ichi and no longer ADK. Why is that? +1
#418 - says shraeye should be a lynch candidate while at the same time stating he will probably not lynch him. This looks more like a townie thing to say, looking for interactions and such. -2
#423 - votes ADk because his reads don't fit with other players' reads. That is one bad reason for a vote. +1
#444 - don't think I agree that Nik is obv!town, but it does seem like a townie thing to say. -2
Then comes an extensive reread which seems like a townie thing to do. -2
#477 - just want to point out that I think VT claiming is never good, not even if you are at L-1 with intnet to hammer (edge cases aside)
#483 - I'm not exactly sure how this reads are connected to what he said about the players.
#500 - IC buddying. +1
#501 - the first in a number of posts where he tries to reduce the lynch pool to me, ADK, shraeye. I find this scummy, especially the amount of force with which he pushes this idea. +2
#513 - the unvote at L-1, always an esay town-cred move. +1
#542 - there it is again. Completely ignoring other options than his favored lynch pool. +1
#546 - in this post, he's preparing at setup where he can accuse any player that attacks him to be scummy because of that narrative. +2
#559 - and here he actually pulls the trigger, doing exactly what his previous posts implied he wanted to do. +1

So what do we have...? scumscore is 46. Not terribly high, but above average. It is mainly his most recent posts that set off alarm bells for me. I mean, it could just be town confident in their reads, but I think it's more likely a scum move. FWIW, I think if he is scum, his partner is among the three players he named. I am town, and I still think shraeye is town (maybe need to reread here as well though), so that would point to ADK.

PPE: Looks like I answered your question without knowing youd pose it.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 04, 2014, 05:36:58 pm
Voltaire, question for you: Have you ever considered that this game is so quiet because scum sees you leading town into their doom?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 04, 2014, 05:48:16 pm
The mcmc wagon is less interesting than I thought. I believe there is scum on it.

shraeye pushed hard, like really hard for this lynch. I don't see that as a scum tactic. Well, that is, in most cases, there are players from which I would expect that. But not from shraeye. So I think he's town.

Voltaire's additude to this wagon was definitely more scummy. First he wants another lynch, but doesn't really do anything about it. He is then quite easily convinced and only sheeps shraeye's reasoning.

Ichi is town. Well.

Nik jumps late when then wagon seems to go through, and sheeps. That's classic scum beviour, and coming from a newbie, it's more likely to actually come from scum.

I am town.

So that would leave me with a slightly scummy feeling on Nik. Voltaire I have already analyzed.

Off-wagon are WW and ADK. Off-wagon is always something generically townie when it's a mislynch wagon. I need to look at the reasons for being off-wagon to make a clearer statement here.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 04, 2014, 05:55:51 pm
The mcmc wagon is less interesting than I thought. I believe there is scum on it.

shraeye pushed hard, like really hard for this lynch. I don't see that as a scum tactic. Well, that is, in most cases, there are players from which I would expect that. But not from shraeye. So I think he's town.

Voltaire's additude to this wagon was definitely more scummy. First he wants another lynch, but doesn't really do anything about it. He is then quite easily convinced and only sheeps shraeye's reasoning.

Ichi is town. Well.

Nik jumps late when then wagon seems to go through, and sheeps. That's classic scum beviour, and coming from a newbie, it's more likely to actually come from scum.

I am town.

So that would leave me with a slightly scummy feeling on Nik. Voltaire I have already analyzed.

Off-wagon are WW and ADK. Off-wagon is always something generically townie when it's a mislynch wagon. I need to look at the reasons for being off-wagon to make a clearer statement here.

There are 100% for certain scum on the McMc wagon, because the only four players not on McMc are McMc himself, Dede (confirmed town), ADK, and myself.  And I know I'm town.  So either there are two scum on McMc wagon, or ADK is scum and there is one on McMc.

Now, this I want to know more about:

Quote
shraeye pushed hard, like really hard for this lynch. I don't see that as a scum tactic. Well, that is, in most cases, there are players from which I would expect that. But not from shraeye. So I think he's town.

I know nothing of Shraeye's meta.  What do you know?  Why do you think he would not do this as scum?

Also, I think your position on McMc's wagon looks scummy.  Refer to my post #561 above.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 04, 2014, 06:07:31 pm
I guess I should respond to this:


I think there is some more worth noting.  Both ADK and Faust seem to do a pretty great job on Day 1 of hedging suspicions and throwing out a lot of "seems kinda towny," and "seems kinda scummy" vibes.  Let's look at votes:

Where did I "hedge suspicions"? And what is wrong with giving reads? They are D1 reads, so you can't expect a solid case (look at our D1 to see where solid cases lead on D1...)

Quote
He was never really vocal against anyone except Ichi.  Against McMc he says "the VT claim on top of everything else," but he never really established what "everything else" is.  He only ever said before that Shraeye comes off as slightly more towny in the Shraeye vs. McMc argument.

Yes, I was never really vocal against anyone except Ichi. Sorry, I don't usually build strong cases on D1. At least I thought I had something there with Ichi (turns out I was wrong).

Quote
Hammering here seems very safe.  He established some doubt against McMc and then established the VT claim as a perfectly valid reason to hammer, even if he doesn't believe McMc is scum, which he never made a case for until McMc claimed VT.

It should be blatantly obvious that "everything else" here refers to shraeye's case. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're saying here? Should I not have hammered? I did think mcmc was likely scum.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 04, 2014, 06:11:47 pm
I know nothing of Shraeye's meta.  What do you know?  Why do you think he would not do this as scum?

In my first scum game here, M31, I was partners with shraeye. Now I can't pull out what in shraeye's behaviour there was different from here with exact quotes, but it sure did feel different. You can look at it yourself; unfortunately, I think it is the longest mafia game thread in this forum. But shraeye died N1 there, so that makes things easier.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 04, 2014, 07:47:00 pm
I guess I should respond to this:


I think there is some more worth noting.  Both ADK and Faust seem to do a pretty great job on Day 1 of hedging suspicions and throwing out a lot of "seems kinda towny," and "seems kinda scummy" vibes.  Let's look at votes:

Where did I "hedge suspicions"? And what is wrong with giving reads? They are D1 reads, so you can't expect a solid case (look at our D1 to see where solid cases lead on D1...)

So, you not saying anything for certain and just observing and making noncommittal comments frees you up to put your vote wherever you want later.  Okay, yes, the behavior makes sense for a town that is trying to figure stuff out, but it also makes sense as hedging. 

He was never really vocal against anyone except Ichi.  Against McMc he says "the VT claim on top of everything else," but he never really established what "everything else" is.  He only ever said before that Shraeye comes off as slightly more towny in the Shraeye vs. McMc argument.

Yes, I was never really vocal against anyone except Ichi. Sorry, I don't usually build strong cases on D1. At least I thought I had something there with Ichi (turns out I was wrong).

This establishes a narrative of you setting up future mislynches.  Ichi was on the wagon for McMc, in fact in a pretty definitive position, since he was putting McMc on and off L-1.  So you can jump on McMc without making it blatently obvious, and then go back and say you were wrong about McMc, but your hammer still made sense, but hey look how scummy Ichi was!


Hammering here seems very safe.  He established some doubt against McMc and then established the VT claim as a perfectly valid reason to hammer, even if he doesn't believe McMc is scum, which he never made a case for until McMc claimed VT.

It should be blatantly obvious that "everything else" here refers to shraeye's case. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're saying here? Should I not have hammered? I did think mcmc was likely scum.

Yes, that was obvious that you meant that.

You see, the problem is that you said this as if you were behind Shraeye's case, and you bought into that case.  You never expressed anything but skepticism before.  So the only point you have against McMc is that he claimed vanilla town.  But you throw in extra stuff, so it seems like you're trying to pad the reasons to your vote in case it comes into question---which you would know for certain that it will if you were scum, because you would have known McMc is town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 04, 2014, 07:47:25 pm
I know nothing of Shraeye's meta.  What do you know?  Why do you think he would not do this as scum?

In my first scum game here, M31, I was partners with shraeye. Now I can't pull out what in shraeye's behaviour there was different from here with exact quotes, but it sure did feel different. You can look at it yourself; unfortunately, I think it is the longest mafia game thread in this forum. But shraeye died N1 there, so that makes things easier.

I'll look at it.  Though I was actually more interested in games where Shraeye was town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 04, 2014, 08:55:41 pm
Voltaire, question for you: Have you ever considered that this game is so quiet because scum sees you leading town into their doom?

Yes, I have.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 04, 2014, 09:08:45 pm

You're experiencing a serios case of confirmation bias here. Either that, or you are scum trying to push my mislynch. Right now, I'm more inclined to believe the first.

You view every single action I took here as scummy and invent reasons why that would be a good thing for scum to do. You're completely ignoring the other side - that those things were good for town to do as well. Look at my posts without bias, and you should manage to see the town narrative. By the time I hammered mcmc, it was quite clear that an Ichi lynch wasn't happening that day. That is why I joined the mcmc wagon, not because of some long-term setting up of mislynches. I doubt that setting up mislynches even is a thing scum wants to do.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 04, 2014, 09:14:37 pm

You're experiencing a serios case of confirmation bias here. Either that, or you are scum trying to push my mislynch. Right now, I'm more inclined to believe the first.

You view every single action I took here as scummy and invent reasons why that would be a good thing for scum to do. You're completely ignoring the other side - that those things were good for town to do as well. Look at my posts without bias, and you should manage to see the town narrative. By the time I hammered mcmc, it was quite clear that an Ichi lynch wasn't happening that day. That is why I joined the mcmc wagon, not because of some long-term setting up of mislynches. I doubt that setting up mislynches even is a thing scum wants to do.

I'm creating a narrative where you're scum to check if it makes sense.  If it does not hold, that is a good indication that you are not. That does not mean I'm assuming it to be true or that I'm not considering the other possibilities.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 04, 2014, 09:15:18 pm
Voltaire, question for you: Have you ever considered that this game is so quiet because scum sees you leading town into their doom?

Yes, I have.

And though it is obviously concerning, WW's activity has me feeling much better. Because he'd need to be one of the scum in that scenario.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 04, 2014, 11:38:51 pm
Hmm. Faust's last couple of posts actually seem pretty towny to me. Uh. This is really hard to decide.

Perhaps we should look into which person will eliminate the largest number of likely scumteam combinations.

Shraeye, I think hasn't really done a good job of defending himself.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 04, 2014, 11:40:12 pm
Perhaps we should look into which person will eliminate the largest number of likely scumteam combinations.

Shraeye, I think hasn't really done a good job of defending himself.

This is fine with me. vote: shraeye.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 04, 2014, 11:40:56 pm
Actually wait, does he eliminate the most combinations?

faust/shraeye - quite possible
shraeye/ADK - most probable
ADK/faust - possible

So...yes?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 04, 2014, 11:41:22 pm
And he's a vet, so situations where we're getting swindled by Nik/WW are covered (at least 50%, faust is the other).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 04, 2014, 11:47:00 pm
I'll vote: Shraeye.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 04, 2014, 11:48:17 pm
That's L-2 on shraeye.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 04, 2014, 11:49:39 pm
That's L-2 on shraeye.

Ahh. Thank you, I wasn't paying attention.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 04, 2014, 11:50:47 pm
That's L-2 on shraeye.

Ahh. Thank you, I wasn't paying attention.

Small # alive, tiny to lynch (4), so our 2 votes already have him there. Which is fine, we just need to allow for claim/counter-claim if necessary.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 04, 2014, 11:55:57 pm
That's L-2 on shraeye.

Ahh. Thank you, I wasn't paying attention.

Small # alive, tiny to lynch (4), so our 2 votes already have him there. Which is fine, we just need to allow for claim/counter-claim if necessary.

Oh, yes--I missed that.

And that was one thing I was going to say. I really hope Shraeye isn't the cop, because that could kind of suck. I don't think he is though. Even if, that would mean that we'd get even better lynch-odds today. They'd kill Shraeye tonight, so I'd survive til tomorrow--yeah either way I think scum is pretty screwed.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 04, 2014, 11:59:26 pm
Yup yup yup yup! This is why I have been so confident/happy.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Nik on April 05, 2014, 08:20:51 am
Yeah, Shraeye is not defending himself and just rambling. Vote: Shraeye
Faust seems more towny, but I'm keeping a close eye on him.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 05, 2014, 09:45:36 am
unvote

I had stress dreams about this. Let me take today to think about it more.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 05, 2014, 09:50:48 am
Gah, no, we have to pick something. vote: shraeye. That's L-1 on shraeye (which Nik didn't announce - Nik, it's bad form not to announce that the next vote will hammer/lynch someone).

If you want to vote shraeye, don't hammer him (or we lynch you tomorrow for being obv!scum). State intent to hammer, and then shraeye gets a chance to claim.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 05, 2014, 10:36:25 am
Why is Shraeye more likely than anyone else?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Nik on April 05, 2014, 11:24:20 am
Gah, no, we have to pick something. vote: shraeye. That's L-1 on shraeye (which Nik didn't announce - Nik, it's bad form not to announce that the next vote will hammer/lynch someone).

If you want to vote shraeye, don't hammer him (or we lynch you tomorrow for being obv!scum). State intent to hammer, and then shraeye gets a chance to claim.
What is meant by 'hammer' and 'L-1?'
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 05, 2014, 11:36:07 am
Gah, no, we have to pick something. vote: shraeye. That's L-1 on shraeye (which Nik didn't announce - Nik, it's bad form not to announce that the next vote will hammer/lynch someone).

If you want to vote shraeye, don't hammer him (or we lynch you tomorrow for being obv!scum). State intent to hammer, and then shraeye gets a chance to claim.
What is meant by 'hammer' and 'L-1?'
L-1 means that it takes only one more vote to lynch someone.
Hammer means casting the final vote that gets someone lynched.
No-one should hammer (cast another vote on Shraeye) until he has had a chance to claim.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 05, 2014, 11:38:08 am
Why is Shraeye more likely than anyone else?

unvote I knew I wasn't thinking things through. faust/shraeye I find pretty damn unlikely, so what the hell am I doing?

vote: ADK
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 05, 2014, 11:39:38 am
Dammit. I keep overthinking this.

My thing about shraeye is, why drive the mcmc wagon SO HARD. But then I think, why disappear and do nothing today?

vote: shraeye.

WW, if not shraeye, then who?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 05, 2014, 01:47:53 pm
Why is Shraeye more likely than anyone else?

It may not be that Shraeye is necessarily more likely than ADK (or even faust). But I think that eliminating him will eliminate the largest possible combination of likely scumteams.

So for example, if Shraeye flips scum, ADK is likely the other scum. If Shraeye flips town, then we could rethink our reads since I don't know if anyone thinks it's faust/ADK.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 05, 2014, 03:04:28 pm
Shraeye said he had real-life commitments until Monday, so his absense is explained.  I had found ADK the most likely.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 05, 2014, 03:05:57 pm
But I'm still almost evenly torn between the three.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 05, 2014, 03:22:24 pm
ADK has been pretty quiet, though.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 05, 2014, 04:20:10 pm
Not sure what to make of Voltaire's reaction to the flip, seems weird...

My main suspects right now are Ichi and ADK. I'll need to reread to see how they behaved towards the conf!townies.

Yep, this. shraeye should be a huge suspect today but NOT an auto-lynch. In fact, I don't think he's most likely to be scum. I just think he should be a strong candidate. I will most likely not want to lynch shraeye today.

Well, I do agree that it's nice to still have our PRs, only with the odd-night/even-night stuff they're not as strong.

How do we feel about a Doc claim, by the way? They can't use their power until N3, and having the claim now leaves scum with a hard decision whether to shoot the IC or hunt the Cop N2.

Notably, Faust was the one that brought up the doc claim.  And we all believed that would help us.  So I would think that counts as towny points.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 05, 2014, 04:44:45 pm
Gah, no, we have to pick something. vote: shraeye. That's L-1 on shraeye (which Nik didn't announce - Nik, it's bad form not to announce that the next vote will hammer/lynch someone).

If you want to vote shraeye, don't hammer him (or we lynch you tomorrow for being obv!scum). State intent to hammer, and then shraeye gets a chance to claim.
What is meant by 'hammer' and 'L-1?'

Why does Nik have to ask about L-1 again, after asking *twice* on day 1:

In that case I will unvote

The way Ichi goes back and forth with putting mcmc at L-1 is most interesting.

Umm...I'm sorry, what does L-1 mean? Also, what does Ichi have to do with me unvoting?

Again, what does L-1 mean?
It means that somebody is 1 vote away from being locked in as the lynch.  As soon as somebody reaches 5 votes (in general, it is the smallest integer that is > half the townsize), the day is over, although a brief twilight-period may exist where the thread is still open, and we can still post.  But the lynch has been decided at that point.

Plus hammering was talked about multiple times on day 1.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 05, 2014, 07:13:26 pm
Why does Nik have to ask about L-1 again, after asking *twice* on day 1:

I agree that this is odd. Even the second time is slightly stretchy. It's interesting because he was pretty much branded a VT at the beginning of the game by mcmc and then Volt and enjoyed almost zero suspicion.

The question is, why would he ask this again? I think the other answers were more than sufficient.
Is it possible that this is newbie scum just trying to look completely lost, or is he legitimately confused?
After 2, now 3 explanations the re-asking of this question strikes me as scummy.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Teproc on April 05, 2014, 07:21:10 pm
Vote Count 2.3:

shraeye (3): Ichimaru Gin, Nik, Voltaire {L-1}
A Drowned Kernel (1) : Witherweaver

Not Voting (3): A Drowned Kernel, shraeye, faust

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 2 ends at 4:00 p.m. on April 8, 2014.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 05, 2014, 07:22:08 pm
Interesting that our three scum-reads are the only ones not voting.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 05, 2014, 09:40:47 pm
Not sure what to make of Voltaire's reaction to the flip, seems weird...

My main suspects right now are Ichi and ADK. I'll need to reread to see how they behaved towards the conf!townies.

Yep, this. shraeye should be a huge suspect today but NOT an auto-lynch. In fact, I don't think he's most likely to be scum. I just think he should be a strong candidate. I will most likely not want to lynch shraeye today.

Well, I do agree that it's nice to still have our PRs, only with the odd-night/even-night stuff they're not as strong.

How do we feel about a Doc claim, by the way? They can't use their power until N3, and having the claim now leaves scum with a hard decision whether to shoot the IC or hunt the Cop N2.

Notably, Faust was the one that brought up the doc claim.  And we all believed that would help us.  So I would think that counts as towny points.

I used to think this way, but then yuma swindled me in a game (forget which one) by bringing up a pro-town claiming plan on a late day. But...yuma isn't faust, and I sorta agree with you - faust talked me into thinking he's the least likely, because he showed up. Which could be an issue, but...we'll see.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 05, 2014, 09:41:35 pm
Gah, no, we have to pick something. vote: shraeye. That's L-1 on shraeye (which Nik didn't announce - Nik, it's bad form not to announce that the next vote will hammer/lynch someone).

If you want to vote shraeye, don't hammer him (or we lynch you tomorrow for being obv!scum). State intent to hammer, and then shraeye gets a chance to claim.
What is meant by 'hammer' and 'L-1?'

Why does Nik have to ask about L-1 again, after asking *twice* on day 1:

In that case I will unvote

The way Ichi goes back and forth with putting mcmc at L-1 is most interesting.

Umm...I'm sorry, what does L-1 mean? Also, what does Ichi have to do with me unvoting?

Again, what does L-1 mean?
It means that somebody is 1 vote away from being locked in as the lynch.  As soon as somebody reaches 5 votes (in general, it is the smallest integer that is > half the townsize), the day is over, although a brief twilight-period may exist where the thread is still open, and we can still post.  But the lynch has been decided at that point.

Plus hammering was talked about multiple times on day 1.

unvote

Ah shit.

Nik, explanation? 'Cause this makes you look like 100% coached scum.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Nik on April 05, 2014, 09:48:26 pm
Gah, no, we have to pick something. vote: shraeye. That's L-1 on shraeye (which Nik didn't announce - Nik, it's bad form not to announce that the next vote will hammer/lynch someone).

If you want to vote shraeye, don't hammer him (or we lynch you tomorrow for being obv!scum). State intent to hammer, and then shraeye gets a chance to claim.
What is meant by 'hammer' and 'L-1?'

Why does Nik have to ask about L-1 again, after asking *twice* on day 1:

In that case I will unvote

The way Ichi goes back and forth with putting mcmc at L-1 is most interesting.

Umm...I'm sorry, what does L-1 mean? Also, what does Ichi have to do with me unvoting?

Again, what does L-1 mean?
It means that somebody is 1 vote away from being locked in as the lynch.  As soon as somebody reaches 5 votes (in general, it is the smallest integer that is > half the townsize), the day is over, although a brief twilight-period may exist where the thread is still open, and we can still post.  But the lynch has been decided at that point.

Plus hammering was talked about multiple times on day 1.

unvote

Ah shit.

Nik, explanation? 'Cause this makes you look like 100% coached scum.
Because I didn't really understand Sgraeye's explanation, and he first time it wasn't answered.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 05, 2014, 09:50:16 pm
All of Nik's votes:

D1
shraeye (RVS)
DD (for not voting/lurking)
mcmc (finds scummy after shraeye fight, but says shraeye is also a scum read)
IG (no idea why, just says he "re-thought" IG)
mcmc (after being talked out of IG)
unvote (after mcmc's claim)
faust (lurking)
mcmc (sheeps shraeye)

D2
shraeye (b/c of mcmc's flip)
Voltaire (opening day glee)
unvote
Voltaire (says he doesn't get case on ADK)
unvote (now suddenly says ADK is scummy)
faust (lurking)
shraeye (not defending)

So Nik looks scummy as hell. His partner could easily be shraeye or ADK (or faust). He's never voted for WW, actually, but everyone else who is still alive. Dammit. It might not be this simple.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 05, 2014, 09:51:05 pm
I meant ADK or faust, I think. Yeah. Not shraeye.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 05, 2014, 09:52:04 pm
Shraeye said he had real-life commitments until Monday, so his absense is explained.  I had found ADK the most likely.

Really? Dammit.

Well, let's play conspiracy theory until then, but at the moment I think I want to lynch shraeye or ADK but more likely shraeye arrrrrrrrrrrrrgh. faust and ADK need to talk talk talk.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 05, 2014, 10:09:39 pm
I'll admit that, availability issues nonwithstanding, I'm having a hard time engaging with this game because I'm so certain of my read on Voltaire, and to me it looks like a number of other players are letting him drive the discussion. So I suppose I would start with, non-Voltaire players, how likely do you think it is that Voltaire is scum? Are you willing to bet the game on him being town? Because it might come to that.

For his partner: Witherweaver seems like the most likely candidate. Unless they're pulling some kind of crazy bussing scheme, it's not shraeye. Faust is a real possibility, though. Volt has set up the whole "it's between ADK shraeye and faust thing," but it looks like he's being careful to keep Faust as the lowest-priority lynch candidate. There might be something there.

Entertaining the possibility of a world where Voltaire is town...

I don't know. That would have to mean, shraeye/faust? Or shraeye/WW or faust/WW. I don't believe Nik is scum, I really see him as newbie town rather than coached newbie scum, especially since we've proven pretty consistently on this forum that newbie slips draw so much suspicion.

I need a reread, I think.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 05, 2014, 10:13:21 pm
I'll admit that, availability issues nonwithstanding, I'm having a hard time engaging with this game because I'm so certain of my read on Voltaire, and to me it looks like a number of other players are letting him drive the discussion. So I suppose I would start with, non-Voltaire players, how likely do you think it is that Voltaire is scum? Are you willing to bet the game on him being town? Because it might come to that.

If this is what you think, it really doesn't seem like you're pushing it very hard. You made the case, it didn't take, and you left. At least, that's what it looks like to me.

Faust is totally one of the lynch candidates, but the worst one at this point I think. Re-read me, I dare you to come up with something other than town me figuring that out.

If you're town, ADK, then the team is shraeye/faust or else we've messed up on WW or Nik. I'm now more confident WW is town than Nik, but both are.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 05, 2014, 10:42:50 pm
So I don't think I'll be lynching Voltaire today.. Almost certainly not.  I'm still keeping the possibility of him being scum in mind, but I think it's the least likely and I don't want to pursue it today.  If he's scum, he is really good at this, and his actions so far have been near perfect.  I have trouble seeing anyone pull it off that well.

  I wrote up (didn't post) an analysis with probabilities of us winning with Voltaire as scum, and I agree it's bleak, but still winnable.

Though, I did it assuming Nik was town, which I'm less sure about.

So, if you really think Voltaire is scum, ADK, would you be okay with going after his partner today?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 05, 2014, 10:51:28 pm
I would have a hard time being convinced that that's a good idea. I'm very sure of him and not very sure of anyone else.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 05, 2014, 10:52:29 pm
Considering the possibility that Volt is scum, who would you consider the most likely candidate for his partner?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 05, 2014, 10:55:51 pm
F-f-f-f-f-feelin' better about scum!adk the more he posts.

Considering the possibility that Volt is scum, who would you consider the most likely candidate for his partner?

You need to answer this yourself first. Don't then agree with WW so you can try to get someone mislynched if it's not your partner.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 05, 2014, 10:58:28 pm
Considering the possibility that Volt is scum, who would you consider the most likely candidate for his partner?

You need to answer this yourself first. Don't wait for WW to name someone, then agree with WW so you can try to get someone mislynched if it's not your partner.

Made that a bit clearer.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 05, 2014, 11:00:19 pm
Honestly, as I said before, my eye is mostly on WW. But given that he's at least willing to engage me on the subject, I thought I'd see what his thoughts are.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 05, 2014, 11:12:53 pm
Honestly, as I said before, my eye is mostly on WW. But given that he's at least willing to engage me on the subject, I thought I'd see what his thoughts are.

I'd think if Voltaire and I were scum partners we wouldn't want to be so blatantly piggy-backing each other.

But I would like to see you answer the question first.  I know that I'm not scum so the possibility of Voltaire/me doesn't help at all.  I'd want to know what you think about Voltaire/Shraeye, Voltaire/Faust, and Voltaire/Nik.

I accept that you don't know I'm not scum (well, unless you are in fact scum), so you can make the Voltaire/me argument too, but that's not what I'm asking about.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 05, 2014, 11:17:32 pm
Voltaire/Faust seems like the most likely possibility, as I don't think Voltaire/shraeye is realistic. As I said, he sets it up as me, shraeye and faust, but keeps faust kind of to the side.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 05, 2014, 11:31:28 pm
Voltaire/Faust seems like the most likely possibility, as I don't think Voltaire/shraeye is realistic. As I said, he sets it up as me, shraeye and faust, but keeps faust kind of to the side.

1. Go re-read me today. This is factually inaccurate.
2. Knowing I needed to eliminate someone in determining who I wanted to vote for today, I decided on faust. You can read the posts where I decide this.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 06, 2014, 06:31:35 am
Hmmm... ADK's latest posts make him seem scummy as hell. He does no at all reason for a Voltaire lynch, just stating that he's so so sure. So until we get an explanation where this read comes from, vote: ADK
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 06, 2014, 10:00:35 am
It's kind of sad that our IC left us, really.

Request a prod on Ichimaru.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 06, 2014, 10:25:22 am
A Drowned Kernel reread, again with scores because I like them.

#75 light buddying. +1
#95 strange unvote "I suppose we're doing serious votes" +1
#119 doesn't say anythin on what unvotes mean. I would guess that scum would actually make something up. So town points. -2
#134 shraeye is ADK's strongest town read. Notable.
#140/#142 empty posts. +1
#183 more empty posting. +1
#246 mistakes Ichi for DeDe. If we didn't know that they are both town, that could have been helpful, but this way...
#250 spreading suspicion over basically all other players. +1
#304 does not want to lynch either mcmc or shraeye. Since mcmc is conf!town, and shraeye a town read, I think of this as townie move. -2
#422 promises a reread which he never does +1
#424 against claiming, saying "having both PRs at LyLo is auto-win". This is plain wrong. +1
#534 is "super confident" that Voltaire is scum. Why? +1
#616 still sure about Voltaire, still no explanation. +2
#619 this really reads like "this is the mislynch I want to push, I haven't really thought about other players being scum. +2

So what do we get...? scumscore: 48. add +5 for general lurkiness, and we get 53, which is quite decent. These numbers are obviously a little flawed, but in the end I think ADK is a better lynch than Voltaire today.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 06, 2014, 10:26:41 am
Also, can someone unvote shraeye? We don't want a scum quickhammer here...
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Nik on April 06, 2014, 10:41:43 am
Also, can someone unvote shraeye? We don't want a scum quickhammer here...
Good idea.
Unvote.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Nik on April 06, 2014, 10:42:58 am
Gah, no, we have to pick something. vote: shraeye. That's L-1 on shraeye (which Nik didn't announce - Nik, it's bad form not to announce that the next vote will hammer/lynch someone).

If you want to vote shraeye, don't hammer him (or we lynch you tomorrow for being obv!scum). State intent to hammer, and then shraeye gets a chance to claim.
What is meant by 'hammer' and 'L-1?'

Why does Nik have to ask about L-1 again, after asking *twice* on day 1:

In that case I will unvote

The way Ichi goes back and forth with putting mcmc at L-1 is most interesting.

Umm...I'm sorry, what does L-1 mean? Also, what does Ichi have to do with me unvoting?

Again, what does L-1 mean?
It means that somebody is 1 vote away from being locked in as the lynch.  As soon as somebody reaches 5 votes (in general, it is the smallest integer that is > half the townsize), the day is over, although a brief twilight-period may exist where the thread is still open, and we can still post.  But the lynch has been decided at that point.

Plus hammering was talked about multiple times on day 1.

unvote

Ah shit.

Nik, explanation? 'Cause this makes you look like 100% coached scum.
Because I didn't really understand Sgraeye's explanation, and he first time it wasn't answered.
I made a typo. I meant Shraeye, not Sgraeye.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 06, 2014, 10:58:46 am

unvote

Ah shit.

Nik, explanation? 'Cause this makes you look like 100% coached scum.
Because I didn't really understand Sgraeye's explanation, and he first time it wasn't answered.

How could you possibly not understand it?  Seems straightforward:

Quote
It means that somebody is 1 vote away from being locked in as the lynch.  As soon as somebody reaches 5 votes (in general, it is the smallest integer that is > half the townsize), the day is over, although a brief twilight-period may exist where the thread is still open, and we can still post.  But the lynch has been decided at that point.

And if you didn't understand it, why didn't you ask for clarity then?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 06, 2014, 11:06:36 am
It's kind of sad that our IC left us, really.

Request a prod on Ichimaru.

I admit that I should be more engaged, but I haven't even been gone 24 hours.
I should be back soon with more to say.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 06, 2014, 12:53:09 pm
Also, can someone unvote shraeye? We don't want a scum quickhammer here...

???

I would love it if scum outed themselves!

It's kind of sad that our IC left us, really.

Request a prod on Ichimaru.

And this is bizarre. I am uneasy as hell about faust again.

I really hate that, at least in my eyes and I have to think at least objectively, one town player is playing so so so damn scummy.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 06, 2014, 12:57:07 pm
Interesting that our three scum-reads are the only ones not voting.

It's kind of sad that our IC left us, really.

Request a prod on Ichimaru.

I mean, it was barely over 12 hours.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 06, 2014, 01:01:11 pm
Also, can someone unvote shraeye? We don't want a scum quickhammer here...

???

I would love it if scum outed themselves!

It's kind of sad that our IC left us, really.

Request a prod on Ichimaru.

And this is bizarre. I am uneasy as hell about faust again.

I really hate that, at least in my eyes and I have to think at least objectively, one town player is playing so so so damn scummy.

I don't know, he posted recently but it's not like he said a whole lot , and he's the one person everyone knows is town, so we don't have to question his motives.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 06, 2014, 01:05:08 pm
I mean it's bizarre that faust wasn't aware IG has been posting/contributing, and requested a prod less than 24 hours after he'd been gone.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 06, 2014, 01:48:48 pm
It's kind of sad that our IC left us, really.

Request a prod on Ichimaru.

I admit that I should be more engaged, but I haven't even been gone 24 hours.
I should be back soon with more to say.

Yes, sorry, uh, somehow I overlooked all of your posts until one 2 days earlier... don't know how that happened. Sorry.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 06, 2014, 01:51:22 pm
Also, can someone unvote shraeye? We don't want a scum quickhammer here...

???

I would love it if scum outed themselves!

I could believe that scum!ADK could see himself as the only viable alternative to shraeye and thus quickhammer hoping to hit the Cop or something like that. Better to lynch ADK right away.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 06, 2014, 01:52:30 pm
Also, can someone unvote shraeye? We don't want a scum quickhammer here...

???

I would love it if scum outed themselves!

I could believe that scum!ADK could see himself as the only viable alternative to shraeye and thus quickhammer hoping to hit the Cop or something like that. Better to lynch ADK right away.

That's only if we're 100% certain on ADK, which I'm not. Scum quickhammering the cop would still out scum, which is the same as if the cop had caught someone, a trade I'm fine with. Though it's not important enough either way really.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 06, 2014, 01:55:48 pm
Also, can someone unvote shraeye? We don't want a scum quickhammer here...

???

I would love it if scum outed themselves!

I could believe that scum!ADK could see himself as the only viable alternative to shraeye and thus quickhammer hoping to hit the Cop or something like that. Better to lynch ADK right away.

Of course, the hypothetical where it's scum ADK and scum Shraeye would mean ADK couldn't justify an unannounced hammer.  He could argue "why would I hammer my own partner," but he wouldn't be able to justify doing it without warning.

At any rate, Shraeye isn't my top lynch (though certainly not out of suspicion), and I would prefer not to rush this day, especially since we haven't had full participation.  We have until.. Tuesday?  So let's at least wait until tomorrow to start putting people at L-1?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 06, 2014, 01:57:42 pm
Also, can someone unvote shraeye? We don't want a scum quickhammer here...

???

I would love it if scum outed themselves!

I could believe that scum!ADK could see himself as the only viable alternative to shraeye and thus quickhammer hoping to hit the Cop or something like that. Better to lynch ADK right away.

Of course, the hypothetical where it's scum ADK and scum Shraeye would mean ADK couldn't justify an unannounced hammer.  He could argue "why would I hammer my own partner," but he wouldn't be able to justify doing it without warning.

At any rate, Shraeye isn't my top lynch (though certainly not out of suspicion), and I would prefer not to rush this day, especially since we haven't had full participation.  We have until.. Tuesday?  So let's at least wait until tomorrow to start putting people at L-1?

Remember that we also need some time for potential claims.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 06, 2014, 01:59:46 pm
Excatly.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 06, 2014, 02:01:07 pm
Also, can someone unvote shraeye? We don't want a scum quickhammer here...

???

I would love it if scum outed themselves!

I could believe that scum!ADK could see himself as the only viable alternative to shraeye and thus quickhammer hoping to hit the Cop or something like that. Better to lynch ADK right away.

Of course, the hypothetical where it's scum ADK and scum Shraeye would mean ADK couldn't justify an unannounced hammer.  He could argue "why would I hammer my own partner," but he wouldn't be able to justify doing it without warning.

At any rate, Shraeye isn't my top lynch (though certainly not out of suspicion), and I would prefer not to rush this day, especially since we haven't had full participation.  We have until.. Tuesday?  So let's at least wait until tomorrow to start putting people at L-1?

Remember that we also need some time for potential claims.

True, so we should push for that tomorrow.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Teproc on April 06, 2014, 03:16:24 pm
Vote Count 2.4:

A Drowned Kernel (2) : Witherweaver, faust
shraeye (1): Ichimaru Gin

Not Voting (4): A Drowned Kernel, shraeye, Voltaire, Nik

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 2 ends at 4:00 p.m. on April 8, 2014 (~48 hours from now).

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 06, 2014, 08:16:25 pm
Ok unvote. I would vote ADK, but I can see the reasoning behind not putting people at L-1 right now.
Really, I am happy to lynch one of our three major scumreads  today.
Although Nik has seemed pretty scummy as well.
I'll probably die tonight, the cop will claim tomorrow and there should be enough information for POE.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 07, 2014, 07:23:26 am
Ok unvote. I would vote ADK, but I can see the reasoning behind not putting people at L-1 right now.
Really, I am happy to lynch one of our three major scumreads  today.
Although Nik has seemed pretty scummy as well.
I'll probably die tonight, the cop will claim tomorrow and there should be enough information for POE.

I think if someone else states intent to vote ADK, we can count that as a virtual intent to hammer.

I feel quite good about this lynch. My alternatives would be Voltaire or Nik, but ADK is the scummiest of them.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 10:00:43 am
I feel quite good about this lynch. My alternatives would be Voltaire or Nik, but ADK is the scummiest of them.

Can you run your why-not-shraeye case by me one more time?

Also, we do need to be aware scum will counterclaim the cop tomorrow if we lynch wrong tonight, since they can safely do so. That's a 50/50 for us, but better than 0% for them.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 07, 2014, 10:10:09 am
Also, can someone unvote shraeye? We don't want a scum quickhammer here...

???

I would love it if scum outed themselves!

I could believe that scum!ADK could see himself as the only viable alternative to shraeye and thus quickhammer hoping to hit the Cop or something like that. Better to lynch ADK right away.

Of course, the hypothetical where it's scum ADK and scum Shraeye would mean ADK couldn't justify an unannounced hammer.  He could argue "why would I hammer my own partner," but he wouldn't be able to justify doing it without warning.

At any rate, Shraeye isn't my top lynch (though certainly not out of suspicion), and I would prefer not to rush this day, especially since we haven't had full participation.  We have until.. Tuesday?  So let's at least wait until tomorrow to start putting people at L-1?

Remember that we also need some time for potential claims.

Wait, do you want claims to happen?  You said yourself that VT is the worst thing to claim (and the most likely), and the only other choice is claiming cop.  Are you saying you want the cop to claim?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 10:11:30 am
Wait, do you want claims to happen?  You said yourself that VT is the worst thing to claim (and the most likely), and the only other choice is claiming cop.  Are you saying you want the cop to claim?

He means of the player we are going to lynch. If we are going to lynch the cop, of course we want the cop to claim!

Nobody other than the person at L-1 with intent to hammer should claim.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 10:12:39 am
I want faust to refresh the don't-lynch-shraeye today case, I want to see if shraeye has anything to say, and then I'll vote again.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 07, 2014, 10:18:15 am
Wait, do you want claims to happen?  You said yourself that VT is the worst thing to claim (and the most likely), and the only other choice is claiming cop.  Are you saying you want the cop to claim?

He means of the player we are going to lynch. If we are going to lynch the cop, of course we want the cop to claim!

Nobody other than the person at L-1 with intent to hammer should claim.

I know that's what he meant, but.. if scum things they're pretty much guaranteed to get lynched, and claiming VT won't help (which it probably won't), then they could claim cop to draw the real cop out.  Then at night cop dies.  Well I guess we're still in a good spot since we lynched correctly, but we did lose our cop.

If we have the real cop at L-1, then claiming kills him tonight, and we get a better chance to get the correct lynch today.  That's good if scum really is a subset of {Faust, Shraeye, ADK}, bad if not.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 07, 2014, 10:18:30 am
*Thinks
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 10:28:17 am
Wait, do you want claims to happen?  You said yourself that VT is the worst thing to claim (and the most likely), and the only other choice is claiming cop.  Are you saying you want the cop to claim?

He means of the player we are going to lynch. If we are going to lynch the cop, of course we want the cop to claim!

Nobody other than the person at L-1 with intent to hammer should claim.

I know that's what he meant, but.. if scum things they're pretty much guaranteed to get lynched, and claiming VT won't help (which it probably won't), then they could claim cop to draw the real cop out.  Then at night cop dies.  Well I guess we're still in a good spot since we lynched correctly, but we did lose our cop.

If we have the real cop at L-1, then claiming kills him tonight, and we get a better chance to get the correct lynch today.  That's good if scum really is a subset of {Faust, Shraeye, ADK}, bad if not.

We have to have a claim, though, because otherwise we could lynch him and gain nothing!

Yes, if scum claims cop to draw out the real cop (which now that I think about it they obviously will, you're right) then I guess it's an oh-well situation. I mean, the cop could try hammering the scum player super-quickly before anyone unvotes, an (ordinarily) scummy action, but that would likely just out them as the cop to the remaining scum so they'll draw the NK anyway.

So I guess actually maybe I'm open to no claims. Maybe.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 10:29:02 am
We have to have a claim, though, because otherwise we could lynch him and gain nothing!

But really, this.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 07, 2014, 11:11:27 am
Well if it's agreed that claiming should happen (Ichi chime in?) then we should get that process going soonish.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 11:25:01 am
Well if it's agreed that claiming should happen (Ichi chime in?) then we should get that process going soonish.

No, only when we have someone at L-1 with intent to hammer! Which we do not! But I agree, we do need to do that today so we have time.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 07, 2014, 11:28:48 am
Well if it's agreed that claiming should happen (Ichi chime in?) then we should get that process going soonish.

No, only when we have someone at L-1 with intent to hammer! Which we do not! But I agree, we do need to do that today so we have time.

Ichi said his vote is considered to be on ADK, so ADK is basically L-1.  So we only need one more intention to be at intent to hammer.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 07, 2014, 01:45:49 pm
Well if it's agreed that claiming should happen (Ichi chime in?) then we should get that process going soonish.
Well this is an interesting development. I must say I do think scum would fake claim to out the cop. So unless the person we lynch today is a VT then they'll claim cop.
So, what exactly is being advocated?
A mass claim?
If so, I can see some logic behind it, but want to consider it a little more first.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 07, 2014, 01:49:47 pm
Well if it's agreed that claiming should happen (Ichi chime in?) then we should get that process going soonish.
Well this is an interesting development. I must say I do think scum would fake claim to out the cop. So unless the person we lynch today is a VT then they'll claim cop.
So, what exactly is being advocated?
A mass claim?
If so, I can see some logic behind it, but want to consider it a little more first.

Not a mass claim, just a claim by the lynch candidate.  I was a little confused by Faust advocating it after how he responded to McMc's claim.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 01:51:11 pm
If we mass claim, we are guaranteeing the cop dies tonight.

If we don't mass claim, the cop (probably) gets outed anyway, and dies.

If we are going to lynch town today, odds are they will be a VT. We need to lynch them anyway (WIFOM).

If we are going to lynch scum today, they'll probably claim cop. If we say we won't lynch VTs, though, they'll claim that (see above).

If we are going to lynch town today, and it's the cop, we obviously lynch someone else (shit, scum claims to be the cop to get us to lynch the real cop fuck fuck fuck how do I not think these things through? Yes, entire speccy thread, enjoy the laugh).

So basically we have a 50/50 chance on this lynch no matter what. It depends on who claims what when and what we think about it.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 01:52:06 pm
But no then scum is outed tomorrow. In all the scenarios where the cop claims, we've caught scum. Right? Which is the point of a cop in the first place so it's fine. Right?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 07, 2014, 01:53:59 pm
If we mass claim, we are guaranteeing the cop dies tonight.

If we don't mass claim, the cop (probably) gets outed anyway, and dies.

If we are going to lynch town today, odds are they will be a VT. We need to lynch them anyway (WIFOM).

If we are going to lynch scum today, they'll probably claim cop. If we say we won't lynch VTs, though, they'll claim that (see above).

If we are going to lynch town today, and it's the cop, we obviously lynch someone else (shit, scum claims to be the cop to get us to lynch the real cop fuck fuck fuck how do I not think these things through? Yes, entire speccy thread, enjoy the laugh).

So basically we have a 50/50 chance on this lynch no matter what. It depends on who claims what when and what we think about it.

Hmm. That is a really hard dilemma.

We know that both scum can't claim cop, so one of them will have to claim VT.

PPE: That is true. So they out the cop by fakeclaiming, kill him tonight (if we don't be accident), at any rate we know who one of them is tomorrow.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 01:55:15 pm
I mean, we have to remember, "boo hoo the cop is dead" is A-OK if it caught scum, since that's the point of the cop anyway.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 07, 2014, 01:56:22 pm
I mean, we have to remember, "boo hoo the cop is dead" is A-OK if it caught scum, since that's the point of the cop anyway.

And we'd still have a guaranteed IC tomorrow, along with a reduced lynch pool and knowing who one scum is. So maybe massclaim is the way to go.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 02:01:44 pm
I can go either way on this. As IC, you need to make that call, and soon. I lean towards no (only the lynch claims).

We need to do this today btw to have time for any changes before deadline.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 07, 2014, 02:07:00 pm
I can go either way on this. As IC, you need to make that call, and soon. I lean towards no (only the lynch claims).

We need to do this today btw to have time for any changes before deadline.

Well I guess if it's technically a zero-sum for us, then it would be for scum as well. They are going to get one person outed for sure if they fakeclaim and kill the cop.

Actually, it may be safer for scum in some ways to not fakeclaim. The cop could always just confirm another VT--which would be a little better for them I think. . .except, thinking about it. If we hit scum today, and they kill me tonight, tomorrow it would be 5 players: the cop, a confirmed VT, two scum, and an uncomfirmed VT. So slightly better for them since there is no confirmed scum. I don't exactly know. Let's not mass claim and then wait and see what happens. I feel like we still might be able to catch a scum fakeclaim even without having the real cop claim. And if they claim vt, or refuse to claim. . .that's fine.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 02:08:57 pm
ADK is my lynch of choice. I will also lynch shraeye. I don't want to lynch faust today. In no world will I vote for Nik or WW.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 07, 2014, 02:11:43 pm
ADK is my lynch of choice. I will also lynch shraeye. I don't want to lynch faust today. In no world will I vote for Nik or WW.

I'm fine with that. I'm not going to vote for ADK yet, but I will be around all day to hammer/vote if needed after he claims.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 07, 2014, 02:12:03 pm
ADK is my lynch of choice. I will also lynch shraeye. I don't want to lynch faust today. In no world will I vote for Nik or WW.

This should be considered as intent to hammer, then, as ADK already has two votes + Ichi's intent of vote.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 02:14:02 pm
Then ADK should claim in his next post.

It was very difficult not to return to shraeye, but I still think he's scum. But ADK is the better lynch for today, because I think he's also scum and scum in more situations.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 07, 2014, 08:39:52 pm
Research meeting success.  However, dog got sick; spent 2 hours dealing with that.  It's bedtime now, and I'll check some stuff in the ultra-early-AM-hours tomorrow.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 09:59:25 pm
Research meeting success.  However, dog got sick; spent 2 hours dealing with that.  It's bedtime now, and I'll check some stuff in the ultra-early-AM-hours tomorrow.

Just so you know, ADK is at 2 votes with 2 intents to vote, so the current situation is, we want him to claim in his next post.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 07, 2014, 10:16:13 pm
I'm the cop. Can we please talk about a Voltaire lynch now?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 10:21:05 pm
I'm the cop. Can we please talk about a Voltaire lynch now?

No.

Everyone claim if you're the cop or not.

I'm not.

If ADK is telling the truth, we lynch either shraeye or faust and I don't really care which.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 07, 2014, 10:23:07 pm
(I'll just do this for form) I am not the cop.

ADK, if you really are the cop, and we don't lynch Voltaire today, are you going to investigate him tonight? Because I don't feel like that's the best course of action (Although if you really are the cop, you can obviously do as you please).

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 10:24:35 pm
If ADK is scum, I have a prediction on who the real cop is.

If ADK is telling the truth, well, phooey on my reads.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 07, 2014, 10:27:28 pm
Sigh.  I am not the cop.

Though if ADK is telling the truth he probably won't get to read anyone anyway, as he'll get deaded.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 10:29:13 pm
Sigh.  I am not the cop.

Though if ADK is telling the truth he probably won't get to read anyone anyway, as he'll get deaded.

Right.

Also, WW is the person I thought I'd picked up was the cop today, so oops.

And ADK, if my reads are right (and I knew I had to be wrong about someone in my triad), we would theoretically win the game. Which I am not as sure on any more, but dude, if you're town, we need you more. A lot more.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 07, 2014, 10:29:39 pm
But this almost certainly means IG gets to live to tomorrow, so that's good.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 07, 2014, 10:32:40 pm
\prod Nik
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Teproc on April 08, 2014, 05:51:48 am
Vote Count 2.5:

A Drowned Kernel (2) : Witherweaver, faust
shraeye (1): Ichimaru Gin

Not Voting (4): A Drowned Kernel, shraeye, Voltaire, Nik

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 2 ends at 4:00 p.m. on April 8, 2014 (~10 hours from now).

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Teproc on April 08, 2014, 05:55:50 am
\prod Nik

Nik has been prodded
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 06:44:20 am
im here; rereading from day1 now that we know Del, Ichi, mcmc are town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Nik on April 08, 2014, 06:48:51 am
I'm the cop. Can we please talk about a Voltaire lynch now?

No.

Everyone claim if you're the cop or not.

I'm not.

If ADK is telling the truth, we lynch either shraeye or faust and I don't really care which.
I am not the cop. But now that we know that our strongest lynch candidate is town, then it's really only between Shraeye and Faust. Faust seems kind of towny, and since Shraeye says he's really busy, so I say we don't lynch now.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 08, 2014, 06:54:23 am
Uhh, do we really want to do this? Major FOS on Voltaire for urging people to mass-claim without discussion. If ADK is the Cop, well we'll know by tomorrow because scum is gonna kill him 100%. If he's not, he's successfully trying to get the Cop outed. And Voltaire helps with that.

And then instantly saying "let's lynch either faust or shraeye" without considering other options with this new information...

No, FOS is not enough. Vote: Voltaire.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 07:53:01 am
Not sure what to do with this fight. Not sure I understand it as well. mcmc, shraeye, could you sum up why think the respective other is scum?

I have shraeye as slight town and mcmc as null read at the moment.
I don't think that the fight is as unclear as faust was making it.  this comment got under my skin on day1, and it still does.

(Shraeye's thoughts on faust), even smarter scum would mildly oppose the wagon while doing nothing to stop it. And then use this to get themselves town credit after the flip
There's this as well.  Faust was continually null on mcmc, holding back on actually forming an opinion on one of the main people of day1's discussion.  In the end, he did hammer, after I pointed out how this was a scum position, and ichi had also accepted my argument it seems.

So, what happened?

In the mcmc/shraeye fight, shraeye comes off a little more townie than mcmc. I'm not convinced by shraeye's case, but mcmc's reactions to it has a scummy AtE feel.

Voltaire votes for me. Yeah, not much I can do about that because he doesn't really think I'm scummy.

Good input from DeDe solidifies my townread on him.

I still like my vote on Ichimaru. His case on DeDe was constructed, and now he brings up a conspiracy theory. I find it quite unlikely that mcmc and shraeye are scum together, and even if they are, I wouldn't think they staged this fight.
after walking faust through the arguments, he's still straddling the fence on mcmc. casting mcmc's reactions as scummy, while disagreeing with the points of the case and not actually putting down a vote.  This leaves him open to land on either side of the fence later.

In that case I will unvote

The way Ichi goes back and forth with putting mcmc at L-1 is most interesting.
This as well; I think people voting back and forth is the opposite of interesting.  It's common.  Especially among people who are thinking things through a lot.

day1faust=scummy.

Now looking at witherweaver
Shraeye seemed towny to me before the fight, but his "trap" moves him into suspicious territory. mc seems a little scummy but mc always seems a little scummy, both my experiences playing with him I was certain he was scum and he ended up being town so I'm hesitant to vote for him. But I shouldn't be relying on meta knowledge, especially in a newbie game.

This is suspicious.  I have no "trap" set up.  mcmc did crazy stuff, I called him out.  then he did CRAZIER stuff.  And it just got worse from there. 

You're words on mcmc are the most waffling non-committal words of any commenter.  This is the way yuma came out as raerae's partner in Adventure Time mafia (a recent game that town won).  That position is very indicative of scum partner.  If mcmc flips scum, town should most definitely remember this interaction.

Aren't his words on you equally noncommittal?
I hadn't consdered that, Wither.  But now that I look at it, his words on me do commit.  I was towny before my stuff with mcmc.  But now he thinks I'm suspicious due to my case on mcmc.

People should look deeply at that...is my case on mcmc suspicious??  This rings more alarm bells for me; perhaps he's finding me scummy now because I'm looking eagerly at his partner.

To me he seems to have voiced simultaneous suspicion of both you and mcmc.  But he doesn't buy the conspiracy so he only thinks one is scum.  This could be him hedging as scum so that if one turns out to be he can claim this as a defense.  On the other hand, it could easily be what he actually thinks.  I know my inclination when two people go at it like this is that one is guilty, but I don't know which one. 

But I don't entirely understand his post.  ADK:  what did you mean by "trap"?
Wither follows things well, and thinks things through thoroughly.  When I was arguing with ADK on day1, wither was questioning both sides here.  He's doing the very towny thing of trying to get to the bottom of things.  Not accusatory questions, but probing info-getting questions.

So I'm thinking it may not be a great idea to push more people to close to lynching and get them to claim.

We can be sure that McMc isn't cop or doctor, because he would have claimed if he was.  If he is vanilla town, that cuts out 3 candidates (2 scum and McMc) for the scum team. That leaves them with 6 people who they know to contain two power roles.  If we lynch McMc, then scum has a 33% chance of killing a power role tonight (slightly less because the doctor can protect someone, but the doctor has a lot less information than the scum team does). 

Now if we bring someone else to claiming (call this person Claim2), and they claim vanilla town, then scum team knows the two power roles are in a set of five people. If we lynch that person, and he is vanilla town, then scum has a 40% chance of hitting a power role.

If we bring someone to claim and they claim doctor or cop, then I think this is worse for us.  First, we will choose to lynch someone else, and that person will claim.  So now scum has three additional pieces of information: McMc is vanilla town, Claim2 is power role, and Claim3 is whatever.  Suppose Claim3 claims vanilla town and we lynch him.  Then scum knows a power role is in Claim2 and that McMc and Claim3 are vanilla.  If Claim2 is doctor, then (I think) he cannot protect himself so he dies tonight.  If Claim2 is cop, then doctor will protect cop tonight, and scum has a 25% chance (one in four) of targeting the doctor out of the remaining townies.  Then cop can easily die tomorrow night because doctor can only protect odd nights.  So we gain nothing from cop.

If Claim3 were a power role, then scum knows everything.. they target doctor tonight (again assuming he can't protect himself) and cop tomorrow night.  We get nothing from both roles.  This would be worse case scenario, I think.

So I don't know.. it seems that getting people to claim on day 1 is dangerous for us.  Even if they're not power roles, it narrows the field down for the scum team, and they already have a pretty small field from which to choose.   

Of course if Claim2 is mafia, then that is obviously great for us.  So I think if we choose to go away from McMc we better be pretty sure about it. 

Thoughts?
This is also a very thorough examination of claim scenarios. 
Ichi captures my ideas exactly.  WW helps drive discussion well, not controlling it with his opinions, but asking the questions that get people thinking the right ways.  Very on top of things.
Also, I gotta give props to ww and dd. They both seem much more on top of things and putting out some good ideas--and challenging ones as well. (it's really nice when a lot of discussion happens other then when I'm asleep)
Although this also means that they will probably be judged a little more harshly too.

day1wither=towny

Now I'm looking at ADK
I might see Deleuze later tonight, I can give him a real life prod.
I forgot this.  And think it's significant.  ADK knows Del in real life.  It can be draining hiding things IRL from people.  Barring any solid PR leads, I could see this kill happening just because of that.
Ichimaru unvotes again!

Looking over it, I feel like people feel like there's more pressure on shraeye than there actually is, it's not some sort of super-strong wagon. mc voices suspicion of him but it doesn't seem too serious, and a couple of newbies agree with him. Maybe I'm just used to larger games but that doesn't seem like he's any imminent danger.

That said, I'm interested to hear what his thoughts are, it's been awhile since he posted. Nik and other newbies, keep posting!
2 things here.  First, zinging Ichi for the unvoting, just as faust did.  That's not suspicious, and not zing-worthy.  As ichi pointed out later, ADK didn't even have a vote down at this point.  Also, as voltaire starts to decide that I'm town because so many people were against me, ADK tries to slow down that idea by saying how there's not as much pressure on me as people say there is.  Despite this, he has been defending me and saying that I'm town.  This is a classic situation of saying two things at once; on one hand he 'thinks' I'm town, but on the other, he gets worried if other people think I'm town.

I like the soft deadline idea. I've seen very little this game that's voteworthy for me yet, but I do have a pretty strong town read on shraeye and a mostly town read on DeDe, taking a stance on WW seemed like a good town move for a newbie. Volt laying at this plan and explaining the claiming business to the newbies might be a point in his favor, but scum would also want to appear this helpful, so I'll keep an eye on him.
painting Volt scummy because of helping newbies is nonsense.

Shraeye seemed towny to me before the fight, but his "trap" moves him into suspicious territory. mc seems a little scummy but mc always seems a little scummy, both my experiences playing with him I was certain he was scum and he ended up being town so I'm hesitant to vote for him. But I shouldn't be relying on meta knowledge, especially in a newbie game.

This is suspicious.  I have no "trap" set up.  mcmc did crazy stuff, I called him out.  then he did CRAZIER stuff.  And it just got worse from there. 

You're words on mcmc are the most waffling non-committal words of any commenter.  This is the way yuma came out as raerae's partner in Adventure Time mafia (a recent game that town won).  That position is very indicative of scum partner.  If mcmc flips scum, town should most definitely remember this interaction.
Then there is this.  This really got my hackles up day1, but I was insistent that there was a partner link there.  Wrong on the partner, but my hackles are still raised when I read this.  His comments on mcmc seem like an opinion, but they're nothing, just pure nothing.  Additionally, this trap business, which I come to now.

There was no trap, and I don't know where this came from.  I suppose it's a reason to spread the suspicion cannon around.  Seriously, at this point, ADK has put it on Ichi, Volt, me.  Followed none of those up yet.  Just stated suspicion and waited to see what happens.
But I don't entirely understand his post.  ADK:  what did you mean by "trap"?
Wither asks this question, which ADK finally answered
First, shraeye and mc: I don't think that I'm comfortable lynching either of them today. Looking back, I think that mc's characteristic of shraeye's question as a "trap", which I initially bought into, is incorrect. shraeye asks a lot of questions, and when he gets satisfactory answers, he accepts (or at least stops talking about them, which I assume is him accepting them). If he was scum looking to trap someone, I think that he would have been a lot quicker to jump on an answer and paint it as scummy for a mislynch.
by shifting the trap blame onto mcmc.  Guess who was the first player to say trap?  It was ADK.  Not mcmc.  Ctrl-F that shizzz.

day1ADK=scummy

Now onto Volt
Rethinking about Ichimaru, I'm going to Unvote. Vote: Ichimaru Gin

Why? Why is he scum?
I still like my vote on Ichimaru. His case on DeDe was constructed, and now he brings up a conspiracy theory. I find it quite unlikely that mcmc and shraeye are scum together, and even if they are, I wouldn't think they staged this fight.

Why does that make him scummy? Town is paranoid everyone is scum. I see nothing suspicious about him seeing the fight as scum v scum. In fact, it gave me a town read on him.

I do think you're scummy faust - nice try. I think you're doing a good job of not getting a terrible amount of pressure while still being present on D1, a classic scum position.
These are great questions.  He's not allowing people to hide behind shell's of opinions, and I support that a lot.  These are the questions that town asks.
Ichimaru's Day 1 post count
Post Count

Give N$300 to Ichimaru Gin wait, what?

I can't get anything from shareye/mcmc at the moment because they're each following their metas (shraeye is being aggressive and argumentative and abrasive, mcmc is being slightly confusing and earnest). So null on their argument.

Looking at that post count, I want to take myself (because I'm me) out of my lynch pool, Nik out (what should I say? post, also, lowest poster [someone I usually eliminate on D1]), IG (highest poster), and then I'm tempted to sidestep shraeye/mcmc entirely for now, so I think I am happy with a

vote: faust

Reason? Mostly in the background, but not lurking (I am not accusing of actilurking), very little pressure so far, etc. Scum rarely is overtly scummy D1.

There are many other people I'd vote for right now. I'm hesitant to leave hard-core lurkers alive like I normally do because that leads to town losses if those people are indeed town because they stop following closely/are less likely to do crucial re-reads, so eh.

Speaking of which, I'll re-read this thread soon.

FYI, the weekend is usually slow, so everyone be ready to go Monday with the soft deadline and all.
He sidesteps the shraeye/mcmc town vs. town clusterfest, and in a very non-scummy way.  Props to you for seeing past it.

I don't have too much from day1 here, but I read Volt as town

Finally we come to Nik
On the Shraeye situation:
It is strange that he is a vet and yet has so many odd questions; especially since he posted a helpful bit at the beginning.
Shraeye, where are you?
Has a scum read on me in his very first post of substance.  Here is the second, where he restates his reasons (i think this is his reason?) for finding me scummy, but qualifies it by saying that I was helpful at the beginning.  If I was helpful, why did you think I was scum?
Unvote. Vote: mcmcsalot
I have previously stated that Shraeye was suspicious, and I still think he is, but I'm getting a scum read on mcmcsalot. He's being very argumentative and keeps attacking Shraeye, and not very politely, either.
And about DD; I'm getting a null read on him now. I made the same mistake as he did, and it makes sense for a newb not to know what to post.
Here's how I read this: "shraeye was previously suspicious, but his crack arguments on mcmc (and the fact that people are beginning to find mcmc scummy, mostly this reason) make me think that mcmc is scum".  Not cool, yo.
I'm going to Vote:Faust. He has been lurking and his posts have little or no content.
I really have very little for him at all.  There is this pot-kettle-black situation here. 

Nik's day1 posts are mostly votes, very little in explaining hte reads department.  This is so hard to read either way, because of the veil of newbie-ness that Nik also wears.  I'm leaning scum on day1 Nik, but this is a really tenuous read.

Day1 summary: scum to town
ADK, faust, Nik, Volt, wither
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 08:00:59 am
Sweet, VT death. Off to re-read now that we have another flip. Cool cool cool cool cool. I actually feel good about this.
That's not scummy?

I'd like to hear you explain why it is.
He feels good about a VT dying.
This sell seems pretty heavy-handed.  That plus the auto-shraeye vote on day2's start.  He's not expressing glee at a VT dying, he's happy that a non-PR died.  Also, faust was zinging Volt for this.  I don't get it.
Not sure what to make of Voltaire's reaction to the flip, seems weird...
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 08:02:37 am
Sweet, VT death. Off to re-read now that we have another flip. Cool cool cool cool cool. I actually feel good about this.
That's not scummy?

I'd like to hear you explain why it is.
He feels good about a VT dying.

Nik is 100% obviously town. We are absolutely not lynching him.

This is a bad/incorrect/wrong line of reasoning, but it is one that only town thinks (especially new town).
I very disagree that this line of reasoning makes Nik town.  It's equally something that very-new mafia could say.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 08:20:39 am
So I have no IDEA what. the. jack. you are talking about.  I am in no way more "in the moment" now than I was then.  You're just making a hack-job of pretending to have a reason for reads.  Scum. Found.

vote: mcmc

shraeye, what do you think of the mcmc wagon/interactions now that he's flipped town?
Specifically about the wagon.  Nik's vote is the most "yay a wagon here we gooo!!". Not cool.  Also, Faust's hammer.  I hate formulaic, "will hammer in xx minutes" moves.  Scum love to do this because they love to appear very cool/rational.  I think scum does it more than town.  Your vote seems fine.  Ichi's as well.

As for the interesting people off the wagon, ADK and wither.
So I just did my first massive re-read of the thread, and I've come away with some thoughts.

First, shraeye and mc: I don't think that I'm comfortable lynching either of them today. Looking back, I think that mc's characteristic of shraeye's question as a "trap", which I initially bought into, is incorrect. shraeye asks a lot of questions, and when he gets satisfactory answers, he accepts (or at least stops talking about them, which I assume is him accepting them). If he was scum looking to trap someone, I think that he would have been a lot quicker to jump on an answer and paint it as scummy for a mislynch.

That said, I think the case on mc is overblown. What the whole case comes down to is, he changed his mind. People change their minds. I think town is more likely to change their minds than scum is, since scum knows what alignment everyone really is and has to keep track of their artificially constructed reads. Yes, he acted abrasively towards shraeye, but I think that's well within his personality.

A couple of people who came off looking slightly scummier than I remembered are Ichi and DeDe, who seem to get very defensive when any suspicion floats their way. Yes, it's to be expected from newbies, but emotion is something that scum relies on, and a newbie scum is just as likely to react emotionally as newbie town.

There's something that DeDe brought up, which is my behavior in previous mafia games. The very first mafia game I played was Super Mario Bros (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9999.0), where mafia won due to a very persuasive and active scum player talking town into a series of mislynches. The whole thing left me very frightened, possibly unreasonably so, of early game mislynches.

All that said, the player who came across scummiest to me on my reread was Voltaire. He puts on a very helpful and reasonable persona, all while hanging back and giving pretty ambivalent reads on everyone. It's only once a number of people are on the mc wagon that he starts backing it up. shraeye's scum read on mc was based on his own thinking, which makes me more inclined to believe that he's mistaken town, while Volt is pushing the wagon long after it's gotten started, and is still hedging his bets with his "I'm not sure he's scum but I'll lynch him anyway."

Vote: Voltaire
This is a very safe vote away from the major players.  I compare this with the post that you made where you said " hey mcmc/shraeye...that's a hard thing to read, so I will set it aside for now".  That feels way more towny then somebody who says he doesn't want either because it's town vs town, and then plunks his vote down on a "never gonna happen" candidate.  He also said that Ichi was scummy, and Ichi was like 200% more viable day1 lynch than a Voltaire one was.

Wither: He on the other hand, is going through really useful exercises.  He's getting people to ask themselves what we gain from lynches, not just saying "no, not that lynch...i guess"
Okay, then, suppose we lynch McMc and it's revealed he's town.

How do we react to that?

What does this post accomplish? Is this an attempt to manipulate us into making the assumption that mcmc is town? Why did you ask that question?

The point was that I was trying to figure out if McMc is a good lynch.  That is, would it be helpful if he turns out to be town?  My later post (about getting people to claim) explored this a bit more.
His final vote he says that he's not into a mcmc lynch, but admits that it's going to happen.  He's not fake-trying to start another one int he same way ADK did.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 08:26:08 am
Here are my opinions on people so far:
Nik-Town, obviously
WW-Town
Ichi-Since no one has counter claimed, Town.
ADK-I don't really understand why everybody is saying he's scum. Is there something I missed? So far, I've got a townie read.
Shraeye-Null
Faust-Null
Volitare-Personally, I still find him scum.
So actaully, I'm going back to my original vote. Vote:Volitare.
no no no.  This list is crazy.  null on two important people, not good.  Town on ADK?? I don't see it at all.

And Voltaire as scum?  He's been the person helping town the VERY most today.  He's the last person we want to lynch today.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 08:31:31 am
The possibility of a shraeye/faust team, or ww and a vet, are something that I'm going to have reread and look carefully for. But my primary stance is that Volt is far and away my biggest suspect.

Part of it might admittedly be my bias after playing the Super Mario Bros game with Ashersky. In that game I watched a very skilled scum player brazenly push mislynch after mislynch. And the hell of it was, the wagons were never started by him. He waited until two townies got into a fight, then jumped on and fed the flames, all while parading around the excuse that "scum would never be this obvious". To me that looks exactly like what happened on day one. Voltaire waited, not making many waves, until enough newbies had jumped on the mc wagon, then came out in support of it without much solid reasoning. Today, I see him strongly driving another mislynch, and one that's fairly easily, given that a number of people already thought I was scummy. There's a chance that he's town, but it's seeming increasingly unlikely to me. What scares me the most is Ichi stating that he intends to sheep whatever Volt votes, which isn't a good attitude for confirmed town to have. If we mislynch today, scum only needs one town to follow them tomorrow, so Ichi, if I'm not around then, promise we you won't just auto-vote on Volt's side.

As for defending other players, yes, that is something that I do, probably to my detriment. In Adventure Time, I got into a ton of trouble as a townie when a player I defended early on turned out to be scum. Early in the game, when there isn't much interaction to go off of, it's a lot easier for people to get roped into mislynches and for scum to gain control of the game's narrative.

What I've learned from my short experience from this game is that I need to lessen the influence other players have on me and trust my own reads. And right now, my reads are pointing to Voltaire. Is shraeye a scum candidate? Possibly, but the fight between him and mc seemed more townie on townie to me, and it looks to me more like Volt saw a mislynch and jumped in. shraeye could be his partner, which terrifies me a little, but it's starting to look like the most likely possibility. Otherwise it's faust or WW; faust has been absent, so signs might point to him, and WW I have a hard time reading.
you're trying to pin the mcmc lynch on Voltaire??  You are severely mixing up your day1 stuff.  Volt was on that lynch.  But everybody knows that I was the crazy who drove that thing start to finish.

Also, I have no idea why you've related this to a different game with ash.  Volt did not feed the flames of the mcmc/shraeye argument.  He's one of the people who tried to analyze this as he coudl, but also explicitly put his focus elsewehre.  He's like the opposite of fanning those flames.

This blowback onto Voltaire because he's pushing you "an easy mislynch" is very OMGUS.  And not just the "he suspected you for one reason, you suspected him for another".  You really really look like you're trying to punish Volt for having a scum read on you.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 08:37:09 am
Would scum ADK really want to accuse Voltaire?  So far Ichi and myself have basically been agreeing 100% with him, and even though Nik has voted against him, he's also just immediately gone alone with whatever Voltaire said.  ADK would have a really hard time getting everyone to turn on Volt.  Much easier to play a read against Shraeye who had a very aggressive argument against McMc or Faust who has been, like, omnilurk. 

Maybe he thinks that would be too obvious a play, or maybe he's just giving his honest reads.

This.
I am just so torn because having Volt be town is just so. . .convenient--what with him being a vet and a really good town player. I'm an IC now, but am having a really hard time deciding who is town and who is scum.

For now, I feel really, really sure that ww is town. Nik, I'm not sure. It seems like he has a fair amount of interactions with Voltaire. ADK's last couple posts make me feel a little townier on him. Shraeye is more scummy to me, and faust hasn't posted at all. . .

I can't do jack tonight, but I think I want to get more of what I think since there's a good chance scum will kill me unless they feel like they've got a lock on the cop.

PPE: 3
I feel the IC pain, I've been there.  I'm also sure that Wither is town now.  And I'm becoming more and more confident in Volt being town as I read day2.  I can see where you may be scared that we're all being led by scum, but think of it this way.  Today was a directionless clustercuss of nobody posting hardlynothing at all (me, faust, Nik).  ScumVolt could have just breezed through saying nothing as well.  Instead he's grabbing the reins and driving.  And that speaks to me about his towniness. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 08:39:00 am
It would be interesting if there were some game records where Shraeye was town and went 100% on a particular player.
Check out the recently finished Adventure time mafia.  Where I went all up on yuma day1.  Then finally got him after yelling all day2.  Then I turned to axxle, and yelled about him to our IC Robz for the next 2 (3?) days. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 08:39:36 am
Vote: Faust. He's lurking.
True.  But so was I.  And you.  More pot-kettle-black.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 08:41:11 am
Re-read complete! Note that I don't comment on everything that happened, just stuff I think is worth noting. Also, I'll look at the D1 wagon (the final vote count) later.

faust - complains that the game started out slow when he re-appears, despite his first few posts being "help the newbies" posts and having done nothing himself to move the game along. Casts lurker vote on shraeye. Casts lurker vote on Nik.


ADK - is cool as silk (what) to mcmc's vote on him, and does the "if we're making serious votes now I'll unvote" statement (he's the first to start the string of unvotes [was voting IG]). The post is here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10647.msg359463#msg359463). I get a tiny scummy vibe from it, he hedges like crazy (townie) but throws up lots of empty content (scummy). Expresses big town read on shraeye. Says he's "pointed" and "insightful" somehow. Votes Ichi for his "conspiracy theory". Votes for me after I come out in favor of lynching mcmc.


I think there is some more worth noting.  Both ADK and Faust seem to do a pretty great job on Day 1 of hedging suspicions and throwing out a lot of "seems kinda towny," and "seems kinda scummy" vibes.  Let's look at votes:

Faust:
(1) RVS Nik
(2) Votes Shraeye, for motivation to participate (this is where we were transitioning out of RVS)
(3) Votes Nik again for lurking, following Ichi's vote
(4) Votes Ichi for constructing an artificial case against DeDe
<Disappears for like four pages until Voltaire calls him out>
<brings up he's tempted to vote McMc because McMc claimed vanilla town.  Very little to mention on McMc before this except to say he's not quite sure what to make of the fight.  Hedge a slight scum/slight town against McMc I believe>
<This post:
It is interesting how this doesn't feel like a newbie game at all. Good work, everyone!

After catching up, my reads now look like this:

Ichimaru - still scummy. All my previous points still hold, and he's done nothing to make himself look townie.
mcmc - scummy. The VT claim on top of everything else... let me state again why VT is a horrible claim for town to make: it accomplishes two things: 1) Scum knows who they don't need to lynch. 2) You will never be night killed. Scum loves an excuse for never being night killed. Town has no reason to give scum this information.
ADK - scummy. Mostly a feeling from his latest post. Also isn't very active or memorable, so he doesn't make a bad lynch

Nik - lurking, sheeping and slightly scummy for that. He's the only one here why acts like I would expect a newbie to act though, and this may well come from newbie!town.

Voltaire - null. He's pretty much his normal self, without any standout interactions that lead me to think either way about him. I do want to keep him alive today though.
Witherweaver - null. I don't really get why people find him particularly townie, but didn't see much scummy stuff either.

shraeye - slight town. I think he is making sense and putting strong reads out there and sticking to them. Scum is usually more afraid of such commitment.
DeDe - town. My strongest town read, actually. Posts seem sincere, good activity, not afraid of stating reads... it may be masterful newbie!scum play, but I don't think so.
>
<Intent to hammer McMc>
(5) Votes and hammers McMc

He was never really vocal against anyone except Ichi.  Against McMc he says "the VT claim on top of everything else," but he never really established what "everything else" is.  He only ever said before that Shraeye comes off as slightly more towny in the Shraeye vs. McMc argument.

Hammering here seems very safe.  He established some doubt against McMc and then established the VT claim as a perfectly valid reason to hammer, even if he doesn't believe McMc is scum, which he never made a case for until McMc claimed VT.
This.  this this this this this.  Very agree.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 08:45:37 am
The mcmc wagon is less interesting than I thought. I believe there is scum on it.

shraeye pushed hard, like really hard for this lynch. I don't see that as a scum tactic. Well, that is, in most cases, there are players from which I would expect that. But not from shraeye. So I think he's town.

Voltaire's additude to this wagon was definitely more scummy. First he wants another lynch, but doesn't really do anything about it. He is then quite easily convinced and only sheeps shraeye's reasoning.

Ichi is town. Well.

Nik jumps late when then wagon seems to go through, and sheeps. That's classic scum beviour, and coming from a newbie, it's more likely to actually come from scum.

I am town.

So that would leave me with a slightly scummy feeling on Nik. Voltaire I have already analyzed.

Off-wagon are WW and ADK. Off-wagon is always something generically townie when it's a mislynch wagon. I need to look at the reasons for being off-wagon to make a clearer statement here.
But then faust posts this.  This is not a great post for scumfaust to make.  He goes after lurker Nik, but not hard. (why not hard?)  He comes down in my defense, when I would be a really nice thing to push right now (there is lingering suspicion on me from multiple people, especially vocal-Volt).  In general more townreads than scumreads.  This looks like a disengaged town post.  So there's some posts on one side of the fence, and some on the other for faust.  hhhahjammmmmmmmmmmm.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 08:46:51 am

You're experiencing a serios case of confirmation bias here. Either that, or you are scum trying to push my mislynch. Right now, I'm more inclined to believe the first.

You view every single action I took here as scummy and invent reasons why that would be a good thing for scum to do. You're completely ignoring the other side - that those things were good for town to do as well. Look at my posts without bias, and you should manage to see the town narrative. By the time I hammered mcmc, it was quite clear that an Ichi lynch wasn't happening that day. That is why I joined the mcmc wagon, not because of some long-term setting up of mislynches. I doubt that setting up mislynches even is a thing scum wants to do.

I'm creating a narrative where you're scum to check if it makes sense.  If it does not hold, that is a good indication that you are not. That does not mean I'm assuming it to be true or that I'm not considering the other possibilities.
This is jsut sooooo town.  Strongest townread.  Bar none.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 08:48:14 am
Gah, no, we have to pick something. vote: shraeye. That's L-1 on shraeye (which Nik didn't announce - Nik, it's bad form not to announce that the next vote will hammer/lynch someone).

If you want to vote shraeye, don't hammer him (or we lynch you tomorrow for being obv!scum). State intent to hammer, and then shraeye gets a chance to claim.
What is meant by 'hammer' and 'L-1?'
dude, you already asked this question once.  dude!  dude!  I explained it to you.  You cannot wear the newbie-veil that hard unless you're trying.  I don't see it happening naturally.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 08:50:35 am
Gah, no, we have to pick something. vote: shraeye. That's L-1 on shraeye (which Nik didn't announce - Nik, it's bad form not to announce that the next vote will hammer/lynch someone).

If you want to vote shraeye, don't hammer him (or we lynch you tomorrow for being obv!scum). State intent to hammer, and then shraeye gets a chance to claim.
What is meant by 'hammer' and 'L-1?'

Why does Nik have to ask about L-1 again, after asking *twice* on day 1:

In that case I will unvote

The way Ichi goes back and forth with putting mcmc at L-1 is most interesting.

Umm...I'm sorry, what does L-1 mean? Also, what does Ichi have to do with me unvoting?

Again, what does L-1 mean?
It means that somebody is 1 vote away from being locked in as the lynch.  As soon as somebody reaches 5 votes (in general, it is the smallest integer that is > half the townsize), the day is over, although a brief twilight-period may exist where the thread is still open, and we can still post.  But the lynch has been decided at that point.

Plus hammering was talked about multiple times on day 1.

unvote

Ah shit.

Nik, explanation? 'Cause this makes you look like 100% coached scum.
Because I didn't really understand Sgraeye's explanation, and he first time it wasn't answered.
I dare you to say again taht you did not understand my explanation.  It was crystal clear.

Again, what does L-1 mean?
It means that somebody is 1 vote away from being locked in as the lynch.  As soon as somebody reaches 5 votes (in general, it is the smallest integer that is > half the townsize), the day is over, although a brief twilight-period may exist where the thread is still open, and we can still post.  But the lynch has been decided at that point.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 09:01:50 am
whoa.  just saw that ADK claimed cop.  Well that should solve things.  Without a counterclaim, it's got to be Nik/faust then.  Perfect.

Voltaire, I have no idea why you will not look at Nik.  Check out the things I've posted this morning.  Nik is really really really suspicious.  Faust is also suspicious, but there are occasional saving graces.  I see no saving graces for Nik.  I mean, either one is a win.  So whatevs.

vote: Nik
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2014, 09:20:18 am
whoa.  just saw that ADK claimed cop.  Well that should solve things.  Without a counterclaim, it's got to be Nik/faust then.  Perfect.

Voltaire, I have no idea why you will not look at Nik.  Check out the things I've posted this morning.  Nik is really really really suspicious.  Faust is also suspicious, but there are occasional saving graces.  I see no saving graces for Nik.  I mean, either one is a win.  So whatevs.

vote: Nik

I'm increasingly suspicious of Nik, but I'd rather vote against someone who would be his partner today than him. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2014, 09:28:51 am
Are Faust and Shraeye not going to claim now? 

Faust, you originally said ADK should claim.  What did you expect to happen if he claimed cop?  I had thought it was understood that, if the claim was false, the true cop would counterclaim. 

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 09:32:54 am
Are Faust and Shraeye not going to claim now? 
What do you mean by this?  I thought we both did.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2014, 09:34:54 am
Are Faust and Shraeye not going to claim now? 
What do you mean by this?  I thought we both did.

By omission?  It looked like Faust was arguing against people saying whether or not they're the cop, and I didn't see you address it.  I may have missed something though.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 09:47:12 am
Oh, I see that I was the one who misread Faust. 

Faust, the cats out of the bag, whether you like it or not.  Are you cop? Or is ADK cop?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2014, 10:15:16 am
Uhh, do we really want to do this? Major FOS on Voltaire for urging people to mass-claim without discussion. If ADK is the Cop, well we'll know by tomorrow because scum is gonna kill him 100%. If he's not, he's successfully trying to get the Cop outed. And Voltaire helps with that.

And then instantly saying "let's lynch either faust or shraeye" without considering other options with this new information...

No, FOS is not enough. Vote: Voltaire.

Gah, Vote: Faust.  This just does not seem like the right argument to make.  Three people have already claimed before this post (not counting Ichi).. only ones left are Faust and Shraeye.  At this point if ADK is faking, then scum has a 50% chance at cop at worst, and if one of Faust/Shraeye is scum it's 100%. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Teproc on April 08, 2014, 01:24:24 pm
Vote Count 2.6:

shraeye (1): Ichimaru Gin
Voltaire (1): faust
faust (1): Witherweaver

Not Voting (4): A Drowned Kernel, shraeye, Voltaire, Nik

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 2 ends at 4:00 p.m. on April 8, 2014 (in less than 3 hours).

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 01:30:27 pm
vote: faust
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 01:39:17 pm
Now is the absolute worst time for a no lynhh.  One of the benefits of no lynch is the extra time for investigations and forcing scum to remove unknowns from the lynch pool.  With 2 claimed PRs with a doc who can't save the cop, we will lose both advatages. It will be the worst.  We must lynch.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2014, 01:55:02 pm
Nik, what are your thoughts on Faust?

Volt, Ichi?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2014, 02:05:36 pm
I'm the cop. Can we please talk about a Voltaire lynch now?

No.

Everyone claim if you're the cop or not.

I'm not.

If ADK is telling the truth, we lynch either shraeye or faust and I don't really care which.
I am not the cop. But now that we know that our strongest lynch candidate is town, then it's really only between Shraeye and Faust. Faust seems kind of towny, and since Shraeye says he's really busy, so I say we don't lynch now.

Nik we have to lynch now.  What do you feel about a Faust lynch?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 02:14:07 pm
anyone online at all?

Wither, what do you think about Nik?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2014, 02:17:44 pm
anyone online at all?

Wither, what do you think about Nik?

I think that I want him to say many more things.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 02:27:30 pm
ok, sure.  But I mean like in terms of your assessment of his alignment.  you know, mafia shizzz.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 08, 2014, 02:31:54 pm
I feel that Nik has had almost zero suspicion--but not because he has not been acting scummy.
His votes on Voltaire, repetition of questions, and other behavior seem like newbie scum to me.

I would actually be ok lynching Nik today I think. I just feel like town wouldn't have done some of the things he has.

Now that ADK is the cop? Is he, or is it also possible that the real cop decided not to counterclaim?

That leaves Shraeye and faust from the lynch pool of three--which I think Nik should be included in as well. Shraeye's last posts seem pretty townie to me.

Argh! Every time I feel like I've got a solid read, it just gets upended.

I do believe that Volt is town, but has anyone considered a Volt/Nik scumteam?

Because I am not really seeing Nik/faust myself.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 08, 2014, 02:33:42 pm
So first things first. I am not a Cop. I agree that the way things stand now, I probably need to claim this. But I do not think it should have come to this. People can easily hide behind "counterclaiming is what we're always doing, so we're doing it now". But that is not always the best course of action.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 08, 2014, 02:36:10 pm
whoa.  just saw that ADK claimed cop.  Well that should solve things.  Without a counterclaim, it's got to be Nik/faust then.  Perfect.

Voltaire, I have no idea why you will not look at Nik.  Check out the things I've posted this morning.  Nik is really really really suspicious.  Faust is also suspicious, but there are occasional saving graces.  I see no saving graces for Nik.  I mean, either one is a win.  So whatevs.

vote: Nik

It's "got to be" Nik/me? Seriously? Dude, you're way too sure of your reads. I mean, go look at D1 in case you have forgotten. I still think you're town, but dangerous town because you're wrong and seem to believe in your wrong opinions with all your heart.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 08, 2014, 02:36:41 pm
Also shraeye, can you point out to me why Voltaire is town?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 08, 2014, 02:37:25 pm
If Nik is scum, I see Voltaire as a potential partner.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 02:39:42 pm
his desire to drive the day; it feels like he's trying to discover the truth and explain it to us.  That's different than making up the truth and pushing that version.  He rethinks things.  What makes him scummy?

I'd do Nik.  If ichi/faust/me/wither are down with that, it's enough to lynch.

I don't understand how Nik has zero suspicion.  He's been real suspicious.  Read the things that I posted while catching up.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 02:41:12 pm
A benefit to Nik, is that I think he's more likely to be scum with the super-off chance people.  Voltaire, maybe Wither.  I don't see faust/Volt.  I haven't thought about faust/wither, I guess.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 08, 2014, 02:41:18 pm
Are Faust and Shraeye not going to claim now? 

Faust, you originally said ADK should claim.  What did you expect to happen if he claimed cop?  I had thought it was understood that, if the claim was false, the true cop would counterclaim.

I expected to be around when it happens. We could have postponed deciding on him until tomorrow, without any further claiming. By then he would either be dead or we'd have a counterclaim with result, which is like infinitely better than one without result.

PPE: 3
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 02:42:21 pm
ADK, get in here and help sort things out.  We need you/Ichi as much as possible.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 02:42:49 pm
Here's the Nik-wagon

vote: Nik
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 08, 2014, 02:43:59 pm
his desire to drive the day; it feels like he's trying to discover the truth and explain it to us.  That's different than making up the truth and pushing that version.  He rethinks things.  What makes him scummy?

These (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10647.msg364432#msg364432) are my thoughts on Voltaire. I thought you reread.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: faust on April 08, 2014, 02:45:10 pm
I can do Nik. Better than me, for sure. And he is my second highest scum read now.

Vote: Nik
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 08, 2014, 02:46:47 pm
I am totally on for Nik. I really do think he's scum, and has somehow managed to pass under our radar.

How many votes does he have on him now?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 02:48:46 pm
his desire to drive the day; it feels like he's trying to discover the truth and explain it to us.  That's different than making up the truth and pushing that version.  He rethinks things.  What makes him scummy?

These (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10647.msg364432#msg364432) are my thoughts on Voltaire. I thought you reread.
I read through taht, but there are just a lot of +points that I disagree with.  His post #91 is a townread on mcmc, and you say "considering that he helped lynch him later"...so he's scummy for changing his opinion over the course of day 1?
#226 I was the one who steered him off of ADK, so I don't assign any blame to him when I refused to let him consider alternatives.
#423 That's actually a great reason to vote.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 02:49:06 pm
2 votes on Nik...need 4 to lynch.  I think that's our state.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2014, 02:50:06 pm
Are Faust and Shraeye not going to claim now? 

Faust, you originally said ADK should claim.  What did you expect to happen if he claimed cop?  I had thought it was understood that, if the claim was false, the true cop would counterclaim.

I expected to be around when it happens. We could have postponed deciding on him until tomorrow, without any further claiming. By then he would either be dead or we'd have a counterclaim with result, which is like infinitely better than one without result.

PPE: 3

Okay, I didn't think of that resolution. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 08, 2014, 02:50:53 pm
vote: Nik that's L-1
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 02:51:33 pm
so......
Wither, what do you think about Nik?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2014, 02:56:03 pm
so......
Wither, what do you think about Nik?

Okay, soo... I really wanted him to respond first.  Because if Faust/Nik were the team I don't think Nik would have gone to vote for Faust.

I originally started suspecting Nik a long time ago, when no one was paying much attention.  The re-question of what L-1 meant sent off alarms for me.  In a Nik/X situation I wanted to lynch X, because I think the situation where just Nik is left as scum is easier than with X left as scum.  And I thought there would be information to gain from how Nik responds to getting X close to lynch.

I want Nik to come in and respond before we lynch.  I'm okay with voting for him, though.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 02:57:32 pm
The problem is that lynch deadline is in 63 minutes.  We can wait to see a few of Nik's words.  But you have to be ultra-cognizant of that ticking clock.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 1)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 08, 2014, 02:58:15 pm
Um...I didn't want people to think know I was scum, but now I realize that was a big mistake.
I'm still going to keep my Unvote, since Volitare is looking less scummy.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2014, 02:59:31 pm
The problem is that lynch deadline is in 63 minutes.  We can wait to see a few of Nik's words.  But you have to be ultra-cognizant of that ticking clock.

Okay, I'll be here for the deadline.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 03:08:20 pm
So Nik is rarely around during this time:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=profile;area=statistics;u=2570

Voltaire frequently is:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=profile;area=statistics;u=916

faust sometimes is, but not always:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=profile;area=statistics;u=2291

ADK is frequently:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=profile;area=statistics;u=714


ADK/Voltaire.  Please show up and comment?  Contribute?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2014, 03:19:25 pm
\prod Nik

You're about to get got dude.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 08, 2014, 03:25:11 pm
Vote: Nik
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 08, 2014, 03:27:51 pm
Damn.  This should be interesting.
I feel pretty confident that Nik is scum
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 08, 2014, 03:33:28 pm
Who do you think his most likely partner is?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2014, 03:33:57 pm
That's hammer. 

Okay.. thoughts in case I don't survive the night before the thread gets locked:

IF Nik turns out scum:

*Voltaire is super pushing the Nik-as-a-newbie case.  That's suspicious, but if I was Nik's scum partner I wouldn't want to be so obvoius about it.  However, I think we certainly cannot give Volt a free pass.
*Faust.. I found the things he's been saying scummy.  But then again I was really sure ADK was scum.  Well, he voted Nik as the second vote.  It could be that Faust knew Nik was caught and was going to get lynched, so it's safer to get on the lynching side for tomorrow's arguments
*Shraeye I have a townread on.

IF Nik turns out town:

Well.. I don't know what these interactions tell us.  My scummiest read is still Faust, but honestly it's more of a hunch/feeling than a finding evidence case. 

Really the best evidence-driven case we have against someone is Nik. 

PPE: 2, didn't read
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2014, 03:36:33 pm
Another point against Voltaire (and maybe others) if Nik flips scum:

I was the first one to point out Nik's super suspicious duplicate question to the already-answered question.  Voltaire has been super on the dot, so I'm surprised he didn't see this until after I pointed it out.

I would have expected Faust to see it, too, but his time zone is different.  But I don't recall him saying much about it, even after I brought it up and Voltaire and Ichi commented on it.  Have to go back.

Shraeye I'm for sure certain would have jumped on it, but he was basically gone during the entire thing.  So probably can't conclude anything from that.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 08, 2014, 03:36:38 pm
Mm.  I believe both faust and Voltaire began defending him early on, citing reasons I never especially agreed with.  Come to think of it though, mcmc also defended him. . .
So I'd tend to say Faust or Voltaire.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2014, 03:40:48 pm
Mm.  I believe both faust and Voltaire began defending him early on, citing reasons I never especially agreed with.  Come to think of it though, mcmc also defended him. . .
So I'd tend to say Faust or Voltaire.

Can you find the example of Faust's defense?  The last thing I remember was like 7 pages ago.. Faust described Nik as something ot the effect of: "seems really scummy, but he's a newbie, so unsure.  But newbie scum seems likely".  Will dig up quote.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2014, 03:42:30 pm
Faust on analyzing the McMc wagon:

The mcmc wagon is less interesting than I thought. I believe there is scum on it.

shraeye pushed hard, like really hard for this lynch. I don't see that as a scum tactic. Well, that is, in most cases, there are players from which I would expect that. But not from shraeye. So I think he's town.

Voltaire's additude to this wagon was definitely more scummy. First he wants another lynch, but doesn't really do anything about it. He is then quite easily convinced and only sheeps shraeye's reasoning.

Ichi is town. Well.

Nik jumps late when then wagon seems to go through, and sheeps. That's classic scum beviour, and coming from a newbie, it's more likely to actually come from scum.

I am town.

So that would leave me with a slightly scummy feeling on Nik. Voltaire I have already analyzed.

Off-wagon are WW and ADK. Off-wagon is always something generically townie when it's a mislynch wagon. I need to look at the reasons for being off-wagon to make a clearer statement here.

Okay so he didn't use newbie as any excuse or defend Nik at all, and said that newbie scum is more likely.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 08, 2014, 03:42:47 pm
I missed ww's posts.  Pretty much what he said.
Ppe: I would except I switched to my phone now,  so can't effectively find it.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Teproc on April 08, 2014, 03:53:11 pm
THREAD LOCKED
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 08, 2014, 03:54:16 pm
Okay.

Without posting everything, the Voltaire/Nik dynamic is basically Voltaire is 10,000% sure Nik is town while Nik continually finds Voltaire scummy, votes for him but removes his vote once Voltaire tells him it's a bad idea.   

I found this all very suspicious, but everything else Volt has done has felt very town.  So I'm not ready to run with this.

The Faust/Nik and Shraeye/Nik dynamic are much less present. 

Here are Nik's posts that involve either.  This line of reasoning is probably only helpful if Nik flips scum, but regardless having it handy may be useful.  These are only from day 2:

Well then, it's obvious who to vote for now.
Vote:Shraeye


It is entirely possible that faust/shraeye could be the scum team, which is why I want to hear more from ADK.
Alright, I'm going to Unvote. I'm still not sure about you, Volitare, but for now, you're less scummy.
Now, it's really between Faust, ADK, and Shraeye.
I'm also not really sure about you three. Faust is lurking, ADK, after reading the quote you see up there, seems scummy, and Shraeye is null. Could at least one of you post? (Yes, I know Shraeye just posted, all he said was that he won't be able to post.)

Here are my opinions on people so far:
Nik-Town, obviously
WW-Town
Ichi-Since no one has counter claimed, Town.
ADK-I don't really understand why everybody is saying he's scum. Is there something I missed? So far, I've got a townie read.
Shraeye-Null
Faust-Null
Volitare-Personally, I still find him scum.
So actaully, I'm going back to my original vote. Vote:Volitare.
Vote: Faust. He's lurking.

Yeah, Shraeye is not defending himself and just rambling. Vote: Shraeye
Faust seems more towny, but I'm keeping a close eye on him.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Teproc on April 08, 2014, 03:55:15 pm

THREAD LOCKED

For real this time.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Teproc on April 08, 2014, 03:57:50 pm
Final Vote Count

Nik (4): shraeye, faust, Ichimaru Gin, A Drowned Kernel

faust (1): Witherweaver

Not Voting (2): Voltaire, Nik

With 7 alive, it took 4 to lynch.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Teproc on April 08, 2014, 04:01:48 pm
After Claire and Zoe's demise, Frank's inner circle understood they had been looking at this the wrong way. Who, among Frank's friends, had never truly been a shark ? How among them was just a tool that Frank had picked up and was planning to discard. The answer was clear : it had to be Peter. He might be a drunken mess, but sobering up had helped him remember the reason he went into politics in the first place : help his local industry to work again, create jobs in his district, all that wide-eyed optimist crap.

It was only after outing Peter's relationship with his assistant Christina, as well as his numerous encounters with D.C. prositutes and lapses in sobriety, that they realized their mistake : Christina revealed that Peter was being groomed by Frank to take over his position as whip and that one of the compromises that he had to make for that was letting the shipyard he had been elected to defend be outsourced. Clearly, he was one of the sharks, and they would have to look elsewhere the next day.


Nik has been lynched. He was Peter Russo, the Corrupt Politician (Town Vanilla).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Teproc on April 08, 2014, 04:02:24 pm
Night 2 has begun. It will end tomorrow at 4pm. Any night actions submitted after that won't be taken into account.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: Teproc on April 09, 2014, 04:41:41 pm
Flavor will be added later.

Ichimaru Gin has been forced to leave politics. He was Linda Vasquez, the Corrupt Fixer (Town Odd-Night Doctor)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: Teproc on April 09, 2014, 04:42:41 pm
Day 3 begins ! Sorry for being late guys stuff came up IRL.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 04:43:16 pm
I investigated shraeye last night and it's him. Vote: shraeye
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 04:44:34 pm
I counterclaim!

Nice try.

I'm cop.  faust understands why I lied yesterday.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 04:44:56 pm
I was wondering why you left me alive.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 04:45:38 pm
Why'd you choose Shraeye?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: Teproc on April 09, 2014, 04:45:47 pm
Vote Count 3.1

shraeye (1) : A Drowned Kernel

Not Voting (4): Witherweaver, shraeye, faust, Voltaire

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 3 ends at 4:00 p.m. on April 16, 2014.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 04:45:56 pm
I counterclaim!

Nice try.

I'm cop.  faust understands why I lied yesterday.

Wow I saw that coming.  Who did you investigate?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 04:46:25 pm
you literally haven't even had time to think about the night actions.

You posted that like you've been ruminating on "why you were alive" for a while.

Which you have.  Because you knew that you'd eventually be counterclaimed.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 04:46:49 pm
That whole thing at the end of the day with Nik left me very suspicious of him. I'm guessing faust is his partner since he's appealing to Volt in his post.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 04:47:18 pm
It's the first thing you wonder when you're a cop and you're alive after claiming. I though scum might try something like this though.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 04:48:00 pm
Here's the death-note that I wrote yesterday. I was very worried of getting lynched yesterday when i didn't counterclaim.  Because when I let ADK get "conf-town" instead of countering, that lynch could have easily fallen on me.  Voltaire, a very loud speaker, had said that I was the backup lynch:

---------
damn.  I am the real cop, as you will soon find out.  I very carefully worded my 'reaction' to ADK's claim (which I absolutely read before doing my reread).
Quote
whoa.  just saw that ADK claimed cop.  Well that should solve things.  Without a counterclaim, it's got to be Nik/faust then.  Perfect.
This sentence is 100% true, and I specifically did not include the words "i am not cop" [gee thanks, wither ;)].  If I'm not lynched (and wither is scum), ADK claiming will solve things for me.

I am confident Wither is town.  ADK is obvscum.

So it comes down to (faust, Nik, voltaire).

I had wanted to lynch one, and investigate one of the remaining 2 tonight.


Nik is 100% my biggest suspect in that group.  faust is second, I waffle on him a lot more.  Volt I'm alllllmost sure is town.  But I really really wanted taht investigation to be sure.


Anyway.  Look hard hard hard at Nik tomorrow.  He should be the default suspect, and he has to do a lot of work to pull suspicion off of him.  His interactions with ADK do not look good.


[and one addendum: it took a LOOOOT of thought for me to decide not to counterclaim.  If I counterclaim, we will catch ADK, but I am very worried that his partner is not catchable.  There is a high likelihood that I'll be lynched for lying about my role, and that's justifiable.  Under normal circumstances, town should not lie.  I've probably even said that somewhere.  Still, after much debate, I decided this was the best course of action for this one game.]

________________
fallout from scum not being counterclaimed
Unfortunately, wither was the first person who was confused that there was no counterclaim.  Arg, that makes me mad.  Why does this game keep getting more complicated.

ruminations on ADK's partner
I guess when I think about it, ADK is not worried about trading 1-1 with the cop.  He's worried about the real cop finding his partner.  If Volt is serious about the ADK/faust/shraeye triple (and wither is ADK's partner), then ADK would win by getting lynched (he's scum, which will confirm to Volt that faust/shraeye are final scum).  So if ADK/wither is the scumteam, they are very worried that cop will out wither on day3?
Hmmmm, does that narrative actually make sense?

What if it's ADK/Nik...I guess same deal.  There hasn't been a ton of suspicion around Nik (well there has been, actually, but nobody's acted on it).

I think that ADK would have played differently if it were ADK/faust.  Because two scum are in the triple that Volt called out, I think that faust/ADK both push harder to get me mislynched, hoping that they can win a competing cop claim scenario on day3 (they only need 3 mislynches to win...mcmc/shraeye/cop...the only problem is they don't know I'm cop)
So I actually don't think that faust is ADK's partner.  I mean maybe, if ADK is playing scum well, I think he doesn't claim cop when faust is his partner. But it's possible that ADK isn't playing scum well.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 04:48:31 pm
also....NOBODY SHOULD VOTE UNTIL THIS GETS SORTED OUT.  ADK's partner can hammer me if town votes for me.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 04:50:11 pm
Here's the death-note that I wrote yesterday. I was very worried of getting lynched yesterday when i didn't counterclaim.  Because when I let ADK get "conf-town" instead of countering, that lynch could have easily fallen on me.  Voltaire, a very loud speaker, had said that I was the backup lynch:

---------
damn.  I am the real cop, as you will soon find out.  I very carefully worded my 'reaction' to ADK's claim (which I absolutely read before doing my reread).
Quote
whoa.  just saw that ADK claimed cop.  Well that should solve things.  Without a counterclaim, it's got to be Nik/faust then.  Perfect.
This sentence is 100% true, and I specifically did not include the words "i am not cop" [gee thanks, wither ;)].  If I'm not lynched (and wither is TOWN), ADK claiming will solve things for me.

I am confident Wither is town.  ADK is obvscum.
Hey! I found a typo!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 04:51:34 pm
So.. your investigation?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 04:52:27 pm
everything above the line was written after my full reread, before any posting.


Then I put my thoughts on the fallout after the line.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 04:53:32 pm
So.. your investigation?

you worried?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 04:56:12 pm
So.. your investigation?

you worried?

About you investigating me?  Not at all.  Well yes I am because that tells me nothing.

About you being scum, of course I am.

Why wouldn't you say immediately?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 04:56:49 pm
I guess the question is whether shraeye claims to have investigated his partner or someone he knows is town. If he's trying to get townies on his side I think it's a townie.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 04:57:22 pm
What's your result Shraeye?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 04:58:42 pm
I'm answering wither, because I don't even follow ADK's accusation.  I'll explain why he's obvscum later.

I'm trying to learn about you.  Because I didn't investigate you, and I didn't hit scum.  So there are 2 players who's alignment I don't confirmed-know.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 04:59:45 pm
I'm answering wither, because I don't even follow ADK's accusation.  I'll explain why he's obvscum later.

I'm trying to learn about you.  Because I didn't investigate you, and I didn't hit scum.  So there are 2 players who's alignment I don't confirmed-know.

There's no reason not to say who it is and what you got, unless you want to wait until more people post so that you can gauge their opinions and judge the best person to lie about.

So, I want you to say it now.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 05:01:10 pm
Are you talking about the accusation that you're scum? I'm not sure what's hard to follow about that. You have a fake investigation result to give, and I was wondering (mostly to WW) what makes the most sense from your position.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 05:04:16 pm
Here are a few reasons ADK is obvscum;
1. He claimed cop yesterday, didn't get counterclaimed, but only only showed up at the very end to hammer Nik.  I know not everybody cruises the who's Online feature, but for about 5-10 minutes before popping in this thread and hammering Nik, ADK was cruising the RMM game that mail-mi is running.  There is no way that the actual cop, in danger of being lynched, an then forced to claim, does this.  Not direct ANY of the fallout at all?  If I were run up yesterday and had to claim, I would have been looking all up at my wagon to see who scum was.  Doing anything at all to contribute in any small way.  ADK just sat back and waited for real cop to out himself.  When that didn't happen, he just hammered without word.

2. His insta-post here.  Again, he was cruising the forums at 4pm, viewing this game's thread.  Teproc wasn't even online yet.  His goal was to force a mislynch on a false target, quickly, BEFORE the real cop could get in and wise up.  He only needs 1 townie to believe him.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 05:05:46 pm
Just answer.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 05:06:24 pm
There's no reason not to say who it is and what you got, unless you want to wait until more people post so that you can gauge their opinions and judge the best person to lie about.

So, I want you to say it now.
I don't take orders. From nobody. Never.

What I'm REALLLLLY curious about, is trying to figure out if ADK knew that I was the cop.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 05:07:53 pm
But you know I'm correct.   You not stating your result is just adding to suspicion. 

If ADK knew you were the cop, he would have killed you instead of Ichi.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 05:08:24 pm
Okay well maybe not, he also could have left you alive for exactly this type of scenario.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 05:09:24 pm
Okay well maybe not, he also could have left you alive for exactly this type of scenario.
exactly.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 05:11:11 pm
But you know I'm correct.   You not stating your result is just adding to suspicion. 

If ADK knew you were the cop, he would have killed you instead of Ichi.

Me telling half-truths yesterday and pretending not to be teh cop already jacked my suspicion level up to infinity.  I know that.  I'm prepared to deal with that, because as faust stated yesterday, a counterclaim with a result is soooooo much better than a counterclaim yesterday day.

Me not stating my result might make me more suspicious.  But I don't care about my suspicion level.  ADK is provably scum.  So I'm the shady-suspicious-cop.  Whatever.  My ONLY goal is to find the final scum.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 05:11:45 pm
So.  You investigated one of {Faust, Volt} and found town.  So all we have to do is lynch the other one.  Then lynch ADK tomorrow.  So which one was it?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 05:12:56 pm
So.  You investigated one of {Faust, Volt} and found town.  So all we have to do is lynch the other one.  Then lynch ADK tomorrow.  So which one was it?
Problem is...I don't conf-know that you're town.

And I most definitely want the time to hash that out with the person that I conf-know is town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 05:16:06 pm
Okay, fine, great.  One of {ADK, Shraeye} is scum.  Unless Faust and Volt want to jump in here and claim cop too.  One of {Volt, Faust} is the other scum.  I don't think it's Volt

<b>Vote: Faust</b>
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 05:16:36 pm
imma go teach a review session.


We have 7 days.  ADK's first post obviously wanted the day to end instantly.  I don't want that.


Speaking of, even IF ADK didn't have the other two suspicious marks on him...that is a stupid idea to end the day so quick.  If he were actually cop, ADK would be an auto-NK tonight.  And then 3 people would be around in a LYLO situation.  True town always wants to maximize their chances of winning.  That means to hash things out and discover connections before dropping your scum-investigation-knowledge on people.

ADK made a play which benefits only only only if he's scum.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 05:16:51 pm
That's not a scumslip, though ironic.  I've been writing in XML.  Vote: Faust
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 05:18:00 pm
Okay, fine, great.  One of {ADK, Shraeye} is scum.  Unless Faust and Volt want to jump in here and claim cop too.  One of {Volt, Faust} is the other scum.  I don't think it's Volt

<b>Vote: Faust</b>
I appreciate if this was a "vote in spirit".  Please don't correct this if it was a mistake.  Don't vote without discussion, we are in LYLO situation.

Because there are 2 mafia and 5 town.  if only ONE townie misvotes, the mafia can join them and win the game via "endgaming"
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 05:18:26 pm
please recorrect your vote.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 05:18:49 pm
Bah, Unvote
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 05:20:33 pm
I'm going to teach a review session and stuff.  Then do dinner and stuff.  Life carries on.  In the meantime, do keep posting people.  Don't vote.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 05:20:59 pm
imma go teach a review session.


We have 7 days.  ADK's first post obviously wanted the day to end instantly.  I don't want that.


Speaking of, even IF ADK didn't have the other two suspicious marks on him...that is a stupid idea to end the day so quick.  If he were actually cop, ADK would be an auto-NK tonight.  And then 3 people would be around in a LYLO situation.  True town always wants to maximize their chances of winning.  That means to hash things out and discover connections before dropping your scum-investigation-knowledge on people.

ADK made a play which benefits only only only if he's scum.

Or he could not be as an experienced player as you and not thought it out.  If I was cop, I probably would have posted right away too.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: shraeye on April 09, 2014, 05:22:36 pm
imma go teach a review session.


We have 7 days.  ADK's first post obviously wanted the day to end instantly.  I don't want that.


Speaking of, even IF ADK didn't have the other two suspicious marks on him...that is a stupid idea to end the day so quick.  If he were actually cop, ADK would be an auto-NK tonight.  And then 3 people would be around in a LYLO situation.  True town always wants to maximize their chances of winning.  That means to hash things out and discover connections before dropping your scum-investigation-knowledge on people.

ADK made a play which benefits only only only if he's scum.

Or he could not be as an experienced player as you and not thought it out.  If I was cop, I probably would have posted right away too.
This is possible; though you are more of a newbie than ADK.  I will check in the games he's played to see if any cops did the 'delayed result'.  It's generally a good idea.  ESPECIALLY in a situation where there's still one scum to catch.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 05:28:07 pm
imma go teach a review session.


We have 7 days.  ADK's first post obviously wanted the day to end instantly.  I don't want that.


Speaking of, even IF ADK didn't have the other two suspicious marks on him...that is a stupid idea to end the day so quick.  If he were actually cop, ADK would be an auto-NK tonight.  And then 3 people would be around in a LYLO situation.  True town always wants to maximize their chances of winning.  That means to hash things out and discover connections before dropping your scum-investigation-knowledge on people.

ADK made a play which benefits only only only if he's scum.

Or he could not be as an experienced player as you and not thought it out.  If I was cop, I probably would have posted right away too.
This is possible; though you are more of a newbie than ADK.  I will check in the games he's played to see if any cops did the 'delayed result'.  It's generally a good idea.  ESPECIALLY in a situation where there's still one scum to catch.

Generally a good idea when the person claiming cop was not already established to have lied on the previous day.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 06:03:00 pm
But you know I'm correct.   You not stating your result is just adding to suspicion. 

If ADK knew you were the cop, he would have killed you instead of Ichi.

Me telling half-truths yesterday and pretending not to be teh cop already jacked my suspicion level up to infinity.  I know that.  I'm prepared to deal with that, because as faust stated yesterday, a counterclaim with a result is soooooo much better than a counterclaim yesterday day.

Me not stating my result might make me more suspicious.  But I don't care about my suspicion level.  ADK is provably scum.  So I'm the shady-suspicious-cop.  Whatever.  My ONLY goal is to find the final scum.

But you know it's whichever of {Faust, Voltaire} didn't turn up town.  Okay, 95%Know or whatever.  I believe that you're very confident that I'm town, and I am, so in the world where you're not lying you have all the information to a very high confidence interval.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 06:20:58 pm
Are you talking about the accusation that you're scum? I'm not sure what's hard to follow about that. You have a fake investigation result to give, and I was wondering (mostly to WW) what makes the most sense from your position.

So, as came out in my discussion with Shraeye, I really wanted him to say it now.  As scum!Shraeye, waiting to say anything means he can judge how the town of {Volt, Faust} reacts and what their thoughts are, and how I react and what my thoughts are, in order to best decide who he should make a statement about in order to let us believe his claim. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 06:40:25 pm
The thing is is that I don't believe lying yesterday was the right move.  Let's say Shraeye really is the cop.  Then if he claims, ADK is for sure getting lynched, as we were surely going to choose him over Shraeye.  So we enter today as 4-1 instead of 3-2.  Yes Shraeye is probably dead, but we still have Ichi.  So this scenario is:

WW, Volt, Nik, Faust, Ichi (doctor).

Only one scum here, and we're voting Faust like 100% (even if wrong, that was going to happen).  Even if we're wrong, we enter tomorrow 2 town 1 scum (assuming they kill Ichi).  This still seems a better chance of success than cop!Shraeye convincing everyone today that ADK is lying. 

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 06:47:19 pm

I think that ADK would have played differently if it were ADK/faust.  Because two scum are in the triple that Volt called out, I think that faust/ADK both push harder to get me mislynched, hoping that they can win a competing cop claim scenario on day3 (they only need 3 mislynches to win...mcmc/shraeye/cop...the only problem is they don't know I'm cop)
So I actually don't think that faust is ADK's partner.  I mean maybe, if ADK is playing scum well, I think he doesn't claim cop when faust is his partner. But it's possible that ADK isn't playing scum well.

ADK/Faust does know you're cop.  ADK fake claims cop and knows that the true cop must be {Nik, WW, Volt, Shraeye}  He knows I'm not going to pull what you did, and Nik isn't either.  I really really don't believe Volt would make such a move, and I more strongly believe that ADK/Faust believe Volt wouldn't do this.  I think at least Faust if not both ADK/Faust know that you're the only player here that would do this (other than possibly Faust, and I'm not sure he would). 

So I think, in the ADK/Faust scum scenario, they knew you were cop once Volt, Nik, and myself responded.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 06:50:35 pm
ADK why didn't you investigate Volt when you were so convinced of his scumminess yesterday?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 07:07:57 pm
shraeye drew a lot more of my suspicion once Nik flipped town. I debated it for a long time, though, and the scum team could definitely be shraeye/Volt.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 07:15:18 pm
Okay I've calmed down a little.  I was really annoyed because I had things figured out if ADK died during night.  I thought about this scenario briefly at one point and I think I realized it would be bad.  Then I put it away and didn't think about it more

Plus, it's scum did exactly the correct thing for them.  So, much annoyance.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 07:15:51 pm
shraeye drew a lot more of my suspicion once Nik flipped town. I debated it for a long time, though, and the scum team could definitely be shraeye/Volt.

So why not still investigate volt?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 07:38:50 pm
It felt like it would be more informative knowing if shraeye was scum or town. If I had investigated volt and gotten a scum result, I still would have had to find his partner. During the night I was pretty sure that volt was scum, so I thought I had to find the other one, or at least get more information.

I'm starting to regret that a little, as looking back I'm wavering a little on Volt being the other scum, considering how shraeye brought him up right away.

faust understands why I lied yesterday.

This could be him buddying with his partner, but it looks a lot like trying to get a townie on his side. Maybe I should just stick with my original gut read though.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 08:10:06 pm
HERE AND CATCHING UP

Sorry I missed the deadline, real life, WHY THE #(^#)(^&#)(&^)@#*(&^@(*#& DID YOU GUYS LET SCUM TALK YOU INTO LYNCHING NIK WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

now that that's out of my system

It's faust/shraeye. Let's lynch shraeye.

They had to keep the cop alive because my reads are 100% and they are caught. They have to play the WIFOM and have shraeye do this madness to have any chance.

I believe nothing about shraeye's faked reasoning post. I'll re-read it, but bah. Nope nope nope.

I was actually more sure of faust based on the way he behaved at deadline (I'll pull up the post) so let's say faust is 125% scum and shraeye is 100% scum?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 08:12:02 pm
I'm answering wither, because I don't even follow ADK's accusation.  I'll explain why he's obvscum later.

I'm trying to learn about you.  Because I didn't investigate you, and I didn't hit scum.  So there are 2 players who's alignment I don't confirmed-know.

Then you should know that those two players are scum.  :P :P :P :P :P :P :P ::)

You - town (ha ahahahahahaha not really but to you)
your result (a VT)
IG - doc
2 other players left - THE SCUM TEAM!


See guys, it doesn't work.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 08:14:57 pm
Okay I've calmed down a little.  I was really annoyed because I had things figured out if ADK died during night.  I thought about this scenario briefly at one point and I think I realized it would be bad.  Then I put it away and didn't think about it more

Plus, it's scum did exactly the correct thing for them.  So, much annoyance.

This WIFOM was their only chance.

Wanna hammer shraeye?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 08:15:32 pm
With me, of course, I mean. YOu don't have to commit now if you don't want to, I'm still catching up and I can do more reasonable posts if they'll be helpful but I mean it's 10000000000000000000% obvious to me right now.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 08:20:35 pm
I'm answering wither, because I don't even follow ADK's accusation.  I'll explain why he's obvscum later.

I'm trying to learn about you.  Because I didn't investigate you, and I didn't hit scum.  So there are 2 players who's alignment I don't confirmed-know.

Then you should know that those two players are scum.  :P :P :P :P :P :P :P ::)

You - town (ha ahahahahahaha not really but to you)
your result (a VT)
IG - doc
2 other players left - THE SCUM TEAM!


See guys, it doesn't work.

This above is the reason why it is ok to lynch shraeye now.

Oh, it was faust who drew votes, not shraeye?

Well, let's go with the 100%.

vote: shraeye

Shraeye, if you really were the cop, you should have gotten us to lynch ADK, not Nik. But that's ok, you're just scum.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Night 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 08:24:28 pm
I'm answering wither, because I don't even follow ADK's accusation.  I'll explain why he's obvscum later.

I'm trying to learn about you.  Because I didn't investigate you, and I didn't hit scum.  So there are 2 players who's alignment I don't confirmed-know.

Then you should know that those two players are scum.  :P :P :P :P :P :P :P ::)

You - town (ha ahahahahahaha not really but to you)
your result (a VT)
IG - doc
2 other players left - THE SCUM TEAM!


See guys, it doesn't work.

It's even worse than this. Shraeye should "know" that ADK is "scum".

shraeye - "town"
IG - doc, town
ADK - "claimed" cop, "scum"
faust/Voltaire - one is his "town" result, the other is the remaining scum

Shraeye should be able to 100% POE the team right now, but he hasn't.

 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) ;D
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 08:38:05 pm
Oh, IG is dead.

unvote

 :P ::)

All the dumb emoticons for me!

It's still faust/shraeye though.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 08:47:57 pm
No, I'm still that confident.

vote: shraeye
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 08:51:53 pm
unvote

checking something real quick
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 08:56:44 pm
It felt like it would be more informative knowing if shraeye was scum or town. If I had investigated volt and gotten a scum result, I still would have had to find his partner. During the night I was pretty sure that volt was scum, so I thought I had to find the other one, or at least get more information.

I'm starting to regret that a little, as looking back I'm wavering a little on Volt being the other scum, considering how shraeye brought him up right away.

faust understands why I lied yesterday.

This could be him buddying with his partner, but it looks a lot like trying to get a townie on his side. Maybe I should just stick with my original gut read though.

Why buddy his partner?  Mislynch means he wins, and if we lynch him and he's scum, why buddy Faust?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 08:58:09 pm
I want Faust.  We can figure out Shraye/ADK tomorrow.

/vote Faust
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 09:00:04 pm
I want Faust.  We can figure out Shraye/ADK tomorrow.

/vote Faust

I mean, yes, but the world in which you are scum!MVP requires this. We literally have two claimed cops. There can only be one. I am not lynching anyone but shraeye or ADK today, and I am not lynching ADK who is the cop.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 09:01:46 pm
But whether Shraeye or ADK is scum, I think Faust is the partner.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 09:03:39 pm
But whether Shraeye or ADK is scum, I think Faust is the partner.

Oh, I agree.

But you see why I have to check against the scenario where you are scum, right?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 09:05:13 pm
But whether Shraeye or ADK is scum, I think Faust is the partner.

Sure, but I want to win.
Oh, I agree.

But you see why I have to check against the scenario where you are scum, right?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 09:05:51 pm
Grr, quote fail.  Reply:

Sure, but I want to win.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 09:08:55 pm
Uhh, do we really want to do this? Major FOS on Voltaire for urging people to mass-claim without discussion. If ADK is the Cop, well we'll know by tomorrow because scum is gonna kill him 100%. If he's not, he's successfully trying to get the Cop outed. And Voltaire helps with that.

And then instantly saying "let's lynch either faust or shraeye" without considering other options with this new information...

No, FOS is not enough. Vote: Voltaire.

This is faust's "Hi, I'm scum!" post. He:

1) accused me of starting a mass-claim, something that had been debated extensively and given the go-ahead by the IC
2) not considering that ADK's claim prevented his lynch
3) accusing me of "instantly" saying I would lynch either him or shraeye, when I spent almost the entire day scumhunting and POEing and everything down to a pool where 2 of 3 are scum, and with 1 of those players confirmed town, wanting to lynch the scum team

It's desperate, it's weak, it's scum.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 09:09:14 pm
Grr, quote fail.  Reply:

Sure, but I want to win.

What do you mean?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 09:20:43 pm
Grr, quote fail.  Reply:

Sure, but I want to win.

What do you mean?

WW?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 09:25:35 pm
I know from your point of view you don't know I'm town, buy *I* do, so I'm not considering the scenario where  I am.

In my mind, it's FaustU{ADK,Shraeye}.  I also need to consider the case where you're scum, and I think I'm at bigger risk than you.  This is my very first game (well, simultaneous) and I would not know how to get this level of accepted towniness if I tried.  I don't really know why I did.  I've just been posting what I think, and I'm starting to think that's not the best srategy because it shows scum um your hand

The bigger risk is an experienced player that is scum buddying me and getting me to go along with him.  So my exposure to you is much more than your exposure to me.

On the other hand, as a first-time
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 09:26:56 pm
Was on subway and on phone now.  Previous reply was to your question.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 09:30:28 pm
Not sure what to think of this. I guess faust really is the partner? I mean, maybe, MAYBE it's ww. But with volt, I don't think scum busses this hard, or this fast. I need to reassess.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 2)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 09:32:38 pm
OK, I was re-reading shraeye at the end of D2 after he showed up post-ADK claim. Let's look at this whole post:

whoa.  just saw that ADK claimed cop.  Well that should solve things.  Without a counterclaim, it's got to be Nik/faust then.  Perfect.

Voltaire, I have no idea why you will not look at Nik.  Check out the things I've posted this morning.  Nik is really really really suspicious.  Faust is also suspicious, but there are occasional saving graces.  I see no saving graces for Nik.  I mean, either one is a win.  So whatevs.

vote: Nik

this is not the kind of post the town cop makes. The town cop does not vote for a player they are uncertain about alignment-wise when they know 1 player is scum 100%. They don't don't don't don't don't. Sure, there's a narrative there, but it requires dangerous risky bad play that shraeye would never do.

Plus, if shraeye did do this dangerous, risky, bad thing then he needs to sell us on why. Which he has not done. Horribly. Just horribly.

Are Faust and Shraeye not going to claim now? 
What do you mean by this?  I thought we both did.

Also not this.

Oh, I see that I was the one who misread Faust. 

Faust, the cats out of the bag, whether you like it or not.  Are you cop? Or is ADK cop?

Or this.

A benefit to Nik, is that I think he's more likely to be scum with the super-off chance people.  Voltaire, maybe Wither.  I don't see faust/Volt.  I haven't thought about faust/wither, I guess.

Or this.

ADK, get in here and help sort things out.  We need you/Ichi as much as possible.

OR THIS!

Here are a few reasons ADK is obvscum;
1. He claimed cop yesterday, didn't get counterclaimed, but only only showed up at the very end to hammer Nik.  I know not everybody cruises the who's Online feature, but for about 5-10 minutes before popping in this thread and hammering Nik, ADK was cruising the RMM game that mail-mi is running.  There is no way that the actual cop, in danger of being lynched, an then forced to claim, does this.  Not direct ANY of the fallout at all?  If I were run up yesterday and had to claim, I would have been looking all up at my wagon to see who scum was.  Doing anything at all to contribute in any small way.  ADK just sat back and waited for real cop to out himself.  When that didn't happen, he just hammered without word.

2. His insta-post here.  Again, he was cruising the forums at 4pm, viewing this game's thread.  Teproc wasn't even online yet.  His goal was to force a mislynch on a false target, quickly, BEFORE the real cop could get in and wise up.  He only needs 1 townie to believe him.

Worst case EVAH
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 09:33:23 pm
Not sure what to think of this. I guess faust really is the partner? I mean, maybe, MAYBE it's ww. But with volt, I don't think scum busses this hard, or this fast. I need to reassess.

Yup, it's faust/shraeye.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 09:34:54 pm
I know from your point of view you don't know I'm town, buy *I* do, so I'm not considering the scenario where  I am.

That makes sense. We're the two VTs, so we should have this same symmetrical view about each other.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 09:35:11 pm
ADK, walk me through why you investigated shraeye again.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 09:43:05 pm
During day two I had you as my biggest scum read, and that was still around in the night. I was feeling very towny on shraeye at the end of the day until Nik flipped town, and I looked back and realized shraeye had talked everyone into a mislynch. So I thought about it, and I decided he was worth investigating, since if shraeye was town that would narrow it down to you, faust, and ww, and I was pretty sure in that scenario you and faust was the most likely option, whereas if I investigated you I would have been way more in the dark on shraeye. Basically my read was stronger on you so I thought shraeye would give me more info.

What threw me off was that quote I pulled up earlier, about "faust understands". It seemed to me like the sort of thing scum would say to get a townie on their side, like "you and I are both good at this game, we got this bro". And now the way you're going after him, I mean, maybe that's some ridiculous scum tactic? It's just as brazen as shraeye's counterclaim. But again, maybe one more reread.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 09:44:06 pm
Nah, I don't need it.

I've just been posting what I think, and I'm starting to think that's not the best srategy because it shows scum um your hand

That's the perfect way to play. It's more important to prove to your fellow townies that you are town. Your play let me POE the scum team. Because I had it down to 4, and the 2 town were the cop and the doc! You're the reason that was possible, in my eyes the cop played very scummy and the doc didn't play quite town enough (I gave in to scum's fakecases on IG, sadly, and changed my read on him from town to null).

Anyway. If you're (referring to WW) scum, here's the game:

vote: shraeye

Otherwise, please hammer scum.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 09:44:43 pm
Oh, I see you answered ADK. That makes complete sense.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 09:47:03 pm
That is, the only thing I am betting against is ADK/WW, specifically. Makes me feel even better.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 09:55:23 pm
unvote
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 09:56:10 pm
I saw WW popped back into the thread after reading another game, and I could never forgive myself in the 1% of the world where I am wrong.

Let me keep re-reading thinking the team is ADK/WW. It doesn't make any damn sense right now.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 09:59:57 pm
I really blame Nik for all this.  If he hadn't double-posted that question, then the case against him would have fallen apart easily.   I didn't vote against him but I would have hammered before deadline if I had to.

No offense Nik :)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 10:00:35 pm
I saw WW popped back into the thread after reading another game, and I could never forgive myself in the 1% of the world where I am wrong.

Let me keep re-reading thinking the team is ADK/WW. It doesn't make any damn sense right now.

What about ADK/Faust?  That's what I'm worried about. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 10:02:24 pm
I saw WW popped back into the thread after reading another game, and I could never forgive myself in the 1% of the world where I am wrong.

Let me keep re-reading thinking the team is ADK/WW. It doesn't make any damn sense right now.

What about ADK/Faust?  That's what I'm worried about.

Oh! Right! Um...um...why wasn't I think about that?

Yeah, I'll check that out too.

You/ADK makes no damn sense (still re-reading)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 10:05:39 pm
I know from your point of view you don't know I'm town, buy *I* do, so I'm not considering the scenario where  I am.

In my mind, it's FaustU{ADK,Shraeye}.  I also need to consider the case where you're scum, and I think I'm at bigger risk than you.  This is my very first game (well, simultaneous) and I would not know how to get this level of accepted towniness if I tried.  I don't really know why I did.  I've just been posting what I think, and I'm starting to think that's not the best srategy because it shows scum um your hand

The bigger risk is an experienced player that is scum buddying me and getting me to go along with him.  So my exposure to you is much more than your exposure to me.

On the other hand, as a first-time

Oh this got messed up.  The dangling phrase should have been part of a lead-in to the point where the bigger risk is scum leading me along.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 10:07:26 pm
It felt like it would be more informative knowing if shraeye was scum or town. If I had investigated volt and gotten a scum result, I still would have had to find his partner. During the night I was pretty sure that volt was scum, so I thought I had to find the other one, or at least get more information.

I'm starting to regret that a little, as looking back I'm wavering a little on Volt being the other scum, considering how shraeye brought him up right away.

faust understands why I lied yesterday.

This could be him buddying with his partner, but it looks a lot like trying to get a townie on his side. Maybe I should just stick with my original gut read though.

Grr I replied before but it got lost.

Why would he buddy his partner?  For scum!Shraeye, a lynch against you is a winning mislynch.  That's the only point he needs to make.  If we instead (correctly in this scenario) lynch Shraeye, why would he wanted to have buddied Faust?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 10:18:54 pm
This is what shraeye wants, btw - us to tell him who his town result should be on.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 10:20:42 pm
This is what shraeye wants, btw - us to tell him who his town result should be on.

That was my point with my frustrated posting before
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 10:22:22 pm
The big problem is that theory!Shraeye always seems to be correct!Shraeye.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 10:28:11 pm
The big problem is that theory!Shraeye always seems to be correct!Shraeye.

The fact that I am entertaining the idea of shraeye playing as horribly as him being town would require is sad sad sad. (and I am entertaining this idea, or I would be voting shraeye right now and risking your/faust's hammer)

I say, while I re-read the whole thread, can you do a specific re-read of the wagon on Nik yesterday, thinking of each team? (Hell, even do one involving me lurking away from it if it makes you feel better) That should be useful I would think.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 11:00:13 pm
Even though I started out with a null/townish read on shraeye D1, everything he has done since has just further and further driven him into scum territory, with the big capper being this alleged "I didn't counterclaim the cop" nonsense. I am willing to bet the game on shraeye not playing that badly as town (also because I can combine it with a million other reasons too).
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 11:04:53 pm
Faust looks scummiest.  I particular don't like his response to the claims and the "better Nik than me" vote. 

As for teams:

Faust/Shraeye argue with eachother.  Shraeye specifically implies the scum team is Nik/Faust:*

whoa.  just saw that ADK claimed cop.  Well that should solve things.  Without a counterclaim, it's got to be Nik/faust then.  Perfect.

Voltaire, I have no idea why you will not look at Nik.  Check out the things I've posted this morning.  Nik is really really really suspicious.  Faust is also suspicious, but there are occasional saving graces.  I see no saving graces for Nik.  I mean, either one is a win.  So whatevs.

vote: Nik

But with Nik's mistake, there's a really good chance of pushing a Nik lynch through.  A scum!Shraeye with scum!Faust partner believes he can push Nik through instead of Faust, but has committed to a position against Faust for towncred in case Faust actually does get caught.

Faust and Shraeye disagree about Voltaire too.  Faust is voting against Voltaire, Shraeye thinks he's town.  This makes sense as trying to undermine the validity of a Faust/Shraeye team, but that's because it makes sense as them not being a team.  So WIFOM type of thing.

ADK comes in and hammers out of nowhere, with 35 minutes left, and after I announced I'd be willing to do it before the deadline.  Without saying anything and not talking before.  Now, scum!ADK knows he lied and should know that Shraeye is the cop.  He therefore knows that (1) it's important to get a mislynch through today, and (2) Shraeye's claim tomorrow is going to be pretty hard to believe.  The question here is would scum!ADK hammer here?  I have trouble answering this question.

ADK/Shraeye not possible. 

ADK/Faust.. Well, that was my read back before ADK claimed.  There is very little interaction between ADK and Faust during the Nik wagon.  I can't decide if that makes that team more or less likely.  I think if I was scum!Faust knowing that scum!ADK just fake claimed, I'd want to minimize our interactions. But some scum players might want to have some back and forths to undermine that.  So WIFOM again.  Faust goes after Volt here in response to ADK and subsequent claims.  ADK also wants volt. 

Volt.. suspicious absent during the entire Nik discussion, when he was the most vocal Nik town person.  And even though that time is a normal high activity time (Shraeye nice enough to post those), and he knew the deadline was coming.  This is suspicious.

I don't think an ADK/Volt team is going to have Volt be so adamant about ADK.  ADK being adamant about volt makes sense, because Volt had no risk of being lynched and ADK can give Volt towncred it he goes down.  I don't see this likely though.

What about Shraeye/Volt?  I have trouble seeing this.  But... Shraeye super towncreds Volt than pushes the Nik lynch through while Volt (who would be obligated to argue) is gone. 

And Faust/Volt?  Not possible since one of scum needs to be Shraeye or ADK.

Okay.. most likely looks like Faust/Shraeye.  Then ADK/Faust, then Volt/Shraeye, then Volt/ADK.

*while cleverly leaving open the alternate interpretation that Nik/Faust is the choice for ADK's partner.  I have to give him props for this, whether he's town or scum.  He had this play planned before writing that post.  Note there are 10 minutes between his previous post and that one (~8:50 vs. ~9:00).  That's the time he used to figure out his strategy.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 11:05:10 pm
Even though I started out with a null/townish read on shraeye D1, everything he has done since has just further and further driven him into scum territory, with the big capper being this alleged "I didn't counterclaim the cop" nonsense. I am willing to bet the game on shraeye not playing that badly as town (also because I can combine it with a million other reasons too).

Why could this not be the correct play as town?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 11:14:25 pm
Even though I started out with a null/townish read on shraeye D1, everything he has done since has just further and further driven him into scum territory, with the big capper being this alleged "I didn't counterclaim the cop" nonsense. I am willing to bet the game on shraeye not playing that badly as town (also because I can combine it with a million other reasons too).

Why could this not be the correct play as town?

Why, as the cop, do you go after someone's partner? You would have to be 100% that you have caught the scum team (without an investigation, btw) due to a counter-claim.

shraeye claims that he thought ADK's partner would be uncatchable. No way town thinks that. Give us the chance, man! I have literally never heard a town player argue that having the first player flip scum decreases the odds town wins.

If shraeye was the cop, he should have tried to get ADK lynched yesterday. I mean, he should have claimed. Then we lynch ADK (and by god, I would have made sure we lynched ADK)*, and we've caught scum and can read for interactions! That's best-case scenario! The cop catches scum! Why in the world would you wait to counter? When you already know one of the scum? It's horrible play.

Shraeye's reasoning is entirely empty/horrible/nonsensical. See above.

*as far as being gone at deadline, I had a real-life positive emergency (I was offed $$$ in exchange for my time, some people call those things jobs) and was unexpectedly gone. I didn't even have time to post in advance in the V/LA thread, so I understand that by the rules and respect we have going in this community my disappearance is open to question under the idea I am scum lying about it. But I'm town who dropped the ball due to real life, and you deserve to know why.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 11:19:49 pm
I didn't answer the first part - in addition to shraeye's counter-claim, he lurked D2 hard after driving a mislynch D1 and only kinda sorta reflecting on what mcmc flipping town meant (I had to press him hard to get a straight-ish answer). That was incredibly scummy.

Also, know that shraeye knows he is going down. His goal is to hide his partner. Everything he says will have the goal of chaotic misdirection.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 11:24:42 pm
So I posted this before:

The thing is is that I don't believe lying yesterday was the right move.  Let's say Shraeye really is the cop.  Then if he claims, ADK is for sure getting lynched, as we were surely going to choose him over Shraeye.  So we enter today as 4-1 instead of 3-2.  Yes Shraeye is probably dead, but we still have Ichi.  So this scenario is:

WW, Volt, Nik, Faust, Ichi (doctor).

Only one scum here, and we're voting Faust like 100% (even if wrong, that was going to happen).  Even if we're wrong, we enter tomorrow 2 town 1 scum (assuming they kill Ichi).  This still seems a better chance of success than cop!Shraeye convincing everyone today that ADK is lying.

So from cop!Shraeye's perspective, it's only the right move if he thinks he chance of convincing everyone to understand why he lied yesterday is better than the chance that Faust is scum.  Because lynch ADK yesterday (100% happening), lynch Faust today (99.9999% happening) is win.

Which means cop!Shraeye needs to have a significant amount of doubt of Faust's scumminess.

BUT Shraeye's self-admitted scum read was Nik and Faust.  He said himself he'd be up for lynching either yesterday.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 11:28:02 pm
Another thought: Why is this you and me going through this discussion with only ADK chiming in occasionally?  If I was ADK, I'd be throwing out all sorts of arguments and be really concerned about how this discussion is going down.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 11:29:42 pm
Yup, WW, that's more proof.

Fuck it.

vote: shraeye That's the game if you're scum. If I'm wrong, I maintain that I am super-happy to lose the game to you. (Amazing, since it would involve you debating me perfectly, waiting in the thread for me to vote again...but this stage of the game always involves paranoia)

Another thought: Why is this you and me going through this discussion with only ADK chiming in occasionally?  If I was ADK, I'd be throwing out all sorts of arguments and be really concerned about how this discussion is going down.

He is in multiple games and appears to have a playstyle that is on the lurky side.

I mean, in my mind he's been scummy all game, but I knew that between faust, ADK, and shraeye there was a town player acting like scum. It happens.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 11:40:33 pm
Eh, fine, I didn't actually make any of the lynching decisions this game, so I guess I'll make the last one.

Sorry for cutting the game short if I'm wrong.  Though in all honesty I don't think we'll gain much more than confusion by waiting the full day, and in the end we'll probably just have the same kind of uncertainties. 

I hope we're not wrong, and I hope Voltaire didn't play me!

Vote: Shraeye.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 11:41:55 pm
So that's the lynch, it's locked in. Please tell me if you are scum right now or I will die of worry. You would have won, it would be ok.

I am town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 11:42:42 pm
I am town.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 11:43:36 pm
Thank god.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 11:43:53 pm
Sorry you didn't get to claim your fake result, shraeye!  :'(
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 11:44:00 pm
Still have to worry about ADK.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 11:44:44 pm
Man, didn't even have to wait for faust to come in and hammer.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 11:45:58 pm
Man, didn't even have to wait for faust to come in and hammer.

It was you two?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 11:46:20 pm
Gah I told you!  We should have just lynched Faust :(
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 11:46:37 pm
Gah I told you!  We should have just lynched Faust :(

This game is 100% on me.  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( LVP! LVP!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 11:47:18 pm
Gah I told you!  We should have just lynched Faust :(

I am truly sorry.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 11:47:39 pm
Yeah. I can't believe it went down like that. I thought shraeye had me for sure. Well he did, I'm just amazed no one believed him.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 11:47:47 pm
Curious to see who in the speccy was raging at me for being an idiot and how long...
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 11:49:44 pm
Yeah. I can't believe it went down like that. I thought shraeye had me for sure. Well he did, I'm just amazed no one believed him.

I cannot believe he played the way he did. I am open to counter-arguments, but man...I do not see how anything he did yesterday/today made sense as town...

someone in the speccy post the link I want it NAOW

So what happened here is that I correctly called scum D1 (faust), then let misguided town (shraeye) talk me into a mislynch (mcmc). Then I was dead-set on lynching scum D2 (ADK) until I believed the fakeclaim because the cop DIDN'T FREAKING COUNTER, so I would have lynched town (shraeye).

I um might not be the idiot I think I am.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 11:50:37 pm
OK well deadset on lynching scum D2 is giving myself WAY too much credit. I'll shut up now and go hide in my shame corner.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 11:51:02 pm
I feel like I need a outsiders perspective on this, because I thought shraeye had me for sure for sure, that Voltaire especially would buy his gambit and i'd be sunk. But maybe that's just because I knew he was right? Did people in the speccy still think shraeye was scummy at the start of today?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 11:52:07 pm
Darn I wish I would have trusted my gut.  I really thought Shraeye was town until he pulled the cop thing.  ADK and Faust were my top choices Day 2.  And Faust was my top choice today.

Well, regardless, I know this is my first game, but I don't think Shraeye's move was the right one.  I really believed Faust was scummy, and I think Shraeye thought so, too.  And it was clear that we were going to look to Faust today.  And Shraeye KNEW that ADK was scum, and Shraeye claiming means ADK gets lynched yesterday and Faust most surely today.  I think us winning in that situation is highly more probable than the gambit.

Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 11:52:43 pm
I mean I was pretty sure he was the cop at the end of day two, and that he was trying to get me to out my partner, and then froze and then jumped on the nik wagon like an idiot. The smarter move I think would have been to push for him but we were right at deadline.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 11:53:29 pm
Yeah. I can't believe it went down like that. I thought shraeye had me for sure. Well he did, I'm just amazed no one believed him.

Gah I really did though..  Everytime I went back and read Shraeye's explanations, they were so perfect.  But then I started thinking maybe he was an evil mastermind and was just that good as scum and planned all this out.  And then I found him suspecting Faust which didn't make his gambit (from my perspective, I could totally be wrong) a good play. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 11:54:04 pm
I completely agree that a shraeye counter leads to an ADK lynch (guaranteed) and then a faust lynch. The only possible alternative is that we mislynch Nik first, but definitely faust after that.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 11:56:05 pm
Yeah, and I don't see why Shraeye didn't see that.

Well, at least my reads weren't that bad.  Day 1 I was pretty sure McMc was innocent, though I incorrectly voted for Ichi.  Day 2 I was right on with Faust/ADK.  Day 3 I was right about Faust but got talked into and convinced myself to go for Shraeye :(

Though, there was probably 0 chance of me pushing the Faust lynch through.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 11:56:25 pm
I don't think I played this game well at all and I'm amazed we won. shraeye, you investigated volt, right?

And yeah, my claim was basically a last-ditch suicide move to try and buy a chance for faust. I didn't expect to have to post after that.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 11:57:10 pm
Everyone was dead-on about me this game, I have to give props where they're due.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Robz888 on April 09, 2014, 11:57:23 pm
It's well and truly over? I can post the speccy... I think Tepoc would be okay with that.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 11:57:52 pm
Everyone was dead-on about me this game, I have to give props where they're due.

I think no one could stand to pull the trigger because of the star-crossed lover post. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 09, 2014, 11:58:22 pm
I don't think I played this game well at all and I'm amazed we won. shraeye, you investigated volt, right?

I was so sure you were scum, but you claimed cop and the real cop played exactly how scum would play...it's so bizarre.

It's well and truly over? I can post the speccy... I think Tepoc would be okay with that.

YES YES YES YES
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 09, 2014, 11:58:29 pm
It's well and truly over? I can post the speccy... I think Tepoc would be okay with that.

Well I assume so.  Shraeye is hammered and ADK is admitting he and Faust are the scum team.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 09, 2014, 11:59:11 pm
I quadruple checked before I made my post, that was the lynch, shraeye is town, scum wins. Somehow.

PPE: well I guess that means I do have to put the dramatic reading up on youtube then.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Robz888 on April 10, 2014, 12:01:47 am
Uh, okay then: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/nrXb5VNyxsYe

You'll note that the speccy was unanimously convinced that shraeye was scum, and would have made precisely the same error as Voltaire.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 10, 2014, 12:02:15 am
Uh, okay then: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/nrXb5VNyxsYe

You'll note that the speccy was unanimously convinced that shraeye was scum, and would have made precisely the same error as Voltaire.

ohthankgodifeelsomuchbetter
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 10, 2014, 12:05:29 am
From Yuma in the speccy thread:  (I can post this, right?)

Quote
Yuma:WW talking about the "what if we lynch mcmc and he flips town" is interesting. I like it, but we don't really do that... ever.

I almost feel like it is taboo in a way. As actually kinda discouraging thinking about "what ifs" until we know the ifs. And it does have some drawbacks... for example if he is mafia then Ichimaru basically just laid out a script for WW to walk and hammer mcmc w/o getting any suspicion (at least from Ichimaru). Asking the question is good I think but the discussion can be used by mafia to manipulate for their own benefit.

This was the kind of thing I was talking about with laying my cards on the table. 
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 10, 2014, 12:10:57 am
Gah, I'm to the point where everyone is saying "Yeah, as long as they lynch in ADK/Faust/Shraeye town should be fine".  And then town Shraeye---not scum Shraeye!!!---gets the Nik lynch going.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: AndrewisFTTW on April 10, 2014, 12:14:13 am
Wow. I think we all owe shraeye an apology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u0EL_u4nvw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Voltaire on April 10, 2014, 12:14:45 am
Reading the speccy...


Quote from: mcmc
Do they have 3 lynches? Because Faust/shraeye/Adk should totally win.

YES YES YES

so this game was lost by

1. the Nik lynch
2. the cop not countering (and shareye, I am happy to hear your defense of your play, but apparently it failed to work on all the townies in this game as well as the speccy (I haven't read that far yet))
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 10, 2014, 12:18:05 am
Another great quote, from Yuma, I assume in response to my voting for Faust today by the timestamp:

Quote from: Yuma
Good job WW!!! Hold to your principles!

Quote from: Yuma
or not...
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on April 10, 2014, 12:27:53 am
I am also in the "shraeye misplayed this" camp.  Sorry.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 10, 2014, 02:22:32 am
Good game everyone! Props to ww for some really solid play (especially for a new player). And wow, scum doesn't win that often either--so gotta give some credit there. Although town kind of botched it.

I should have done a better job of being IC while Volt was gone, and not have lynched Nik. It would have been so much easier if he wasn't so scummy though. Oh well, lesson learned for my next time as town. If I had universally trusted Volt, things would have turned out different.

I have to agree with Ash here though. Even if we ended up mislynching Shraeye yesterday because we didn't believe his counter-claim, we could have killed ADK and at least had another day. So he really should have claimed.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Teproc on April 10, 2014, 03:07:50 am
Final Vote Count

shraeye (3): A Drowned Kernel, Voltaire, Witherweaver

Not Voting (2): shraeye, faust

With 5 alive, it took 3 to lynch.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Teproc on April 10, 2014, 03:13:09 am
Flavor will be added later. Maybe.

shraeye has been forced to leave politics. He was Jacqueline Sharp, the Corrupt Whip (Town Even-Night Cop)

The Idealists (A Drowned Kernel and faust) win !

Voltaire and Witherweaver have been endgamed.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Day 3)
Post by: Teproc on April 10, 2014, 03:14:01 am
Speccy : http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/nrXb5VNyxsYe
Scum QT : http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/6EXDF2tZU8uDn
Mod QT : http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/tgD9C3pTigUsZ
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Teproc on April 10, 2014, 03:20:56 am
The Nik mislynch is really where the game went wrong for town. If faust or shraeye are lynched, shraeye's decision not to counterclaim would have worked, but Nik was a bad, bad lynch. Not saying shraeye made a good decision anyway, but he really needed to hit scum or die himself for it to work.

MVP goes to A Drowned Kernel for getting away with that cop claim. I mean yeah, part of that is that he didn't get counterclaimed and shraeye did not exactly play his best town game, but that was what scum needed to do in order to win, and he did it. He also succesfully identified shraeye as the cop in the scum QT, even thought they ended up killing Ichi (which was a good decision). faust was doing better initially, but by the end pretty much everyone thought/knew he was scum.

I will give an honorable mention (whatever that means) to Witherweaver for an excellent newbie town game. Would have been MVP if town had won.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Teproc on April 10, 2014, 03:29:34 am
Lessons from a modding standpoint :

1) Modding is fun. Yesterday I was having a lot of fun looking a the speccy raging over shraeye (as they had been all game), reminding me a lot of the DoP speccy were everyone knew faust was scum (he was not).

2) I suck at writing flavor, and I need to prepare it more.

3) This setup is pretty sweet. I still might prefer Matrix6 for future newbie games (I avoided it here only because Star Wars was so recent), but it made for some interesting gameplay here.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Mafia Wins !)
Post by: ashersky on April 10, 2014, 03:38:14 am
Nice job Tep!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: faust on April 10, 2014, 04:00:41 am
Nice work, ADK! Sorry I haven't been around, for some reason I thought this game would start a day later...

Agreed on the MVP. Driving this game home today was so, so crucial. And yes, the Nik lynch was what saved us here - would it have been any of Voltaire's three (shraeye, ADK, me), we'd probably have lost - either one of us dies or ADK's fake claim is obvious.

It was a really really tense game, I enjoyed that a lot. I already saw us losing on D2 with everyone agreeing with Voltaire - and then shraeye comes in and makes Nik a viable lynch!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Teproc on April 10, 2014, 06:56:10 am
By the way : I'm surprised nobody brough up the ADK/DD twinclaim when discussing the NK. I thought it was a risky choice as a kill for that reason, but maybe people just forgot about it ?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 10, 2014, 08:56:44 am
By the way : I'm surprised nobody brough up the ADK/DD twinclaim when discussing the NK. I thought it was a risky choice as a kill for that reason, but maybe people just forgot about it ?

Twinclaim?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Teproc on April 10, 2014, 08:59:33 am
By the way : I'm surprised nobody brough up the ADK/DD twinclaim when discussing the NK. I thought it was a risky choice as a kill for that reason, but maybe people just forgot about it ?

Twinclaim?

The fact that they know each other IRL. Twinclaim is referring to the first occurence of this in f.ds mafia, which was in mafia IV I believe : jotheonah and Glooble were both playing, and during day 2 they revealed that they were... twin brothers !

True story.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 10, 2014, 09:07:05 am
By the way : I'm surprised nobody brough up the ADK/DD twinclaim when discussing the NK. I thought it was a risky choice as a kill for that reason, but maybe people just forgot about it ?

Twinclaim?

The fact that they know each other IRL. Twinclaim is referring to the first occurence of this in f.ds mafia, which was in mafia IV I believe : jotheonah and Glooble were both playing, and during day 2 they revealed that they were... twin brothers !

True story.

Ohh.. But what does that imply about the nightkill?  Because DD might pick up something on real-life interactions with ADK, so he's more of a threat?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Teproc on April 10, 2014, 09:08:23 am
Presumably someone who knows you in real life will have an easier time reading you. I mean, it's not necessarily that strong an argument, but I was surprised it wasn't brought up at all.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 10, 2014, 09:09:20 am
Presumably someone who knows you in real life will have an easier time reading you. I mean, it's not necessarily that strong an argument, but I was surprised it wasn't brought up at all.

I had forgotten.  Actually in most of my rereads I didn't pay a lot of attention to the RVS stage.  Probably not a good idea.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: theorel on April 10, 2014, 09:56:21 am
Let this be a lesson to the new players...town should NEVER lie!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: faust on April 10, 2014, 10:06:26 am
Let this be a lesson to the new players...town should NEVER lie!

I don't think shraeye ever explicitly stated that he was not the cop, so technically he didn't lie.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: mcmcsalot on April 10, 2014, 11:05:55 am
Presumably someone who knows you in real life will have an easier time reading you. I mean, it's not necessarily that strong an argument, but I was surprised it wasn't brought up at all.

Yea because robz and I can read eachother super well...

I think the only reason it is brought up is because you will act slightly different toward your sibling than you will toward a random online stranger. So people were picking up on the fact that glooble and Joth had some strange relationship and thought it meant they were scum partners, so now two claims make it known right away.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 10, 2014, 11:29:22 am
Let this be a lesson to the new players...town should NEVER lie!

I don't think shraeye ever explicitly stated that he was not the cop, so technically he didn't lie.

I tried to get him to state that.  But he didn't.  Once he asked you "Is it you or ADK?" I took at as him claiming he was not.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: theorel on April 10, 2014, 11:49:13 am
whoa.  just saw that ADK claimed cop.  Well that should solve things.  Without a counterclaim, it's got to be Nik/faust then.  Perfect.

Voltaire, I have no idea why you will not look at Nik.  Check out the things I've posted this morning.  Nik is really really really suspicious.  Faust is also suspicious, but there are occasional saving graces.  I see no saving graces for Nik.  I mean, either one is a win.  So whatevs.

vote: Nik
Implicit claim of not cop "Without a counterclaim..."

Are Faust and Shraeye not going to claim now? 
What do you mean by this?  I thought we both did.
Explicit statement that he believed he and faust both claimed.  This means his implicit claim is in fact a claim, otherwise he would not be under this impression that he had already claimed.  Regardless this is 100% false.  He did NOT think that he had claimed, since he KNEW that he hadn't.

So, I'll say again, town should NOT lie.
Additionally, waiting to counter-claim until lylo is absolutely horrible play.  At lylo town has 1 chance to get it right.  If they're wrong they lose.  shraeye had already forfeited his trustworthiness by lying (see above), so IMO town should choose to believe adk in that situation, 100% of the time.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: shraeye on April 10, 2014, 12:15:57 pm
By the way : I'm surprised nobody brough up the ADK/DD twinclaim when discussing the NK. I thought it was a risky choice as a kill for that reason, but maybe people just forgot about it ?

Twinclaim?
I did bring it up.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: shraeye on April 10, 2014, 12:25:45 pm
From spec-thread yuma:
"the only way shraeye's way is superior is if you hit mafia yesterday. Then sure, town is in an incredibly awesome situation. But that wasn't going to happen with Nik--the lynch that he bulldozed through--and away from his partner faust."

Exactly.  It is brilliant if I hit scum.  And I ALWAYS assume I'm able to hit scum.  Hubris ain't hubris unless it brings you down into the depths of despair from time to time.  ;)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 10, 2014, 12:40:12 pm
From spec-thread yuma:
"the only way shraeye's way is superior is if you hit mafia yesterday. Then sure, town is in an incredibly awesome situation. But that wasn't going to happen with Nik--the lynch that he bulldozed through--and away from his partner faust."

Exactly.  It is brilliant if I hit scum.  And I ALWAYS assume I'm able to hit scum.  Hubris ain't hubris unless it brings you down into the depths of despair from time to time.  ;)

Why didn't you go with me on Faust?  He was so scum :(
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: sudgy on April 10, 2014, 12:43:59 pm
I think this newbie game was a lot better than the last two.  NMIV was way too lurky, and NMIII...
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: shraeye on April 10, 2014, 12:44:41 pm
I was fairly town between faust/Nik on that day2 lynch.  I was real sad to miss the scum-lynch.

On the final day I was definitely behind a faust-lynch.  I investigated Volt and knew he was town.  So it was faust, or on a crazy-off-chance, it was you as ADK's partner.  I didn't expect Volt to blow up so much regarding my play.

I knew I had you convinced (which was maybe an act if you were scum).  And I totally agreed with faust's reasoning regarding claims yesterday, so figured I had him convinced (which would also be an act if he were scum).  So as long as Volt knows that I'm just crazy enough to do this...then I should have been safe to give time to explore between a faust/wither lynch.

Hindsight is great, but if you/me had just voted for faust, where I was leaning....then Volt wouldn't have been so convinced that I was faust's partner.  And possibly listened harder to my arguments on ADK.  Of course, if we're using hindsight, I could have always counterclaimed ADK on time  ;)
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 10, 2014, 12:51:37 pm
I was fairly town between faust/Nik on that day2 lynch.  I was real sad to miss the scum-lynch.

On the final day I was definitely behind a faust-lynch.  I investigated Volt and knew he was town.  So it was faust, or on a crazy-off-chance, it was you as ADK's partner.  I didn't expect Volt to blow up so much regarding my play.

I knew I had you convinced (which was maybe an act if you were scum).  And I totally agreed with faust's reasoning regarding claims yesterday, so figured I had him convinced (which would also be an act if he were scum).  So as long as Volt knows that I'm just crazy enough to do this...then I should have been safe to give time to explore between a faust/wither lynch.

Hindsight is great, but if you/me had just voted for faust, where I was leaning....then Volt wouldn't have been so convinced that I was faust's partner.  And possibly listened harder to my arguments on ADK.  Of course, if we're using hindsight, I could have always counterclaimed ADK on time  ;)

I think we hit an unlucky point on Day 2 close to lynch.  I had my vote on Faust, and you had even voted for him at some point, and Ichi would have voted too.  But both Voltaire and Nik were gone, so they couldn't vote against Faust. And I'm sure Volt would have steered the conversation away from Nik, and I had a much stronger scumread on Faust than on you, so I think we would have had him definitely. But with three votes and ADK not going to vote for Faust, we were in a situation in that last hour where we had to lynch Nik or get a no-lynch.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 10, 2014, 12:54:41 pm
Well also.. if we have 3 votes against Faust and ADK is refusing to hammer, then it makes the ADK/Faust team a lot more likely.

Quote
I knew I had you convinced (which was maybe an act if you were scum).  And I totally agreed with faust's reasoning regarding claims yesterday, so figured I had him convinced (which would also be an act if he were scum).  So as long as Volt knows that I'm just crazy enough to do this...then I should have been safe to give time to explore between a faust/wither lynch.

Had me convinced of which part?  I wasn't convinced that you weren't scum, but I was so sure Faust was by Day 3.  So I figured get rid of Faust and sort out the ADK/Shraeye thing tomorrow.

You shouldn't have told me to unvote Faust :P
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: shraeye on April 10, 2014, 12:56:05 pm
Had you convinced, in that I didn't expect you to hammer me or vote me.  I guess you did though...
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: shraeye on April 10, 2014, 12:57:20 pm
Although, with my info of Volt town, it's obvious that you voting for faust won't lead to a scum-quickhammer scneario.

But I really wanted to keep that info to myself, and let potential-scum faust sweat bullets trying to see if I'm onto him, or not.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 10, 2014, 01:08:51 pm
The frustrating thing was that your explanation of events was just so much better than ADK's.  I had a real hard time buying his voting for Shraeye instead of Volt. 

But this was the one problem I had with your explanation, and what made me ultimately vote for you:

So I posted this before:

The thing is is that I don't believe lying yesterday was the right move.  Let's say Shraeye really is the cop.  Then if he claims, ADK is for sure getting lynched, as we were surely going to choose him over Shraeye.  So we enter today as 4-1 instead of 3-2.  Yes Shraeye is probably dead, but we still have Ichi.  So this scenario is:

WW, Volt, Nik, Faust, Ichi (doctor).

Only one scum here, and we're voting Faust like 100% (even if wrong, that was going to happen).  Even if we're wrong, we enter tomorrow 2 town 1 scum (assuming they kill Ichi).  This still seems a better chance of success than cop!Shraeye convincing everyone today that ADK is lying.

So from cop!Shraeye's perspective, it's only the right move if he thinks he chance of convincing everyone to understand why he lied yesterday is better than the chance that Faust is scum.  Because lynch ADK yesterday (100% happening), lynch Faust today (99.9999% happening) is win.

Which means cop!Shraeye needs to have a significant amount of doubt of Faust's scumminess.

BUT Shraeye's self-admitted scum read was Nik and Faust.  He said himself he'd be up for lynching either yesterday.

I expected you to have the same outlook on how things would go that I did.  I was pretty sure that Faust was going to get voted against eventually.  So your explanation only made sense as town if you really didn't think Faust was going to get picked in any of the subsequent days---and lynching ADK would have given us two shots to get Faust.  So I concluded this didn't hold since you yourself admitted Faust was the other scum candidate on Day 2.

Ironically enough, I found your argument against ADK to be reasonable.  I was so surprised when he came out ((a) alive, (b) throwing the vote, and (c) so quickly).   I was constantly refreshing the forums until the thread was unlocked as well.  I had hit reply and was ready to type Vote: Faust (I didn't even think about the accounting possibility of scumhammer to win).  I expected to be the first person posting.  And then ADK beat me to it.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: shraeye on April 10, 2014, 01:18:16 pm
yeah, you were convinced of faust.  And I was just leaning faust.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 10, 2014, 01:19:42 pm
yeah, you were convinced of faust.  And I was just leaning faust.

But I think on the last day you should have known Faust to very high certainty.  The only other option was me being scum, and I think that had to be really, really unlikely from your perspective, given this is my very first day.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 10, 2014, 01:19:56 pm
First game I mean.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Voltaire on April 10, 2014, 01:27:53 pm
Exactly.  It is brilliant if I hit scum.  And I ALWAYS assume I'm able to hit scum.  Hubris ain't hubris unless it brings you down into the depths of despair from time to time.  ;)

 ;D

I do want to say, I hope this was a great game for all the newbies, I had fun playing, please sign up for more games, and thanks to Teproc for modding!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 10, 2014, 01:29:57 pm
Any advice/suggestions/comments for me?
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Voltaire on April 10, 2014, 01:33:23 pm
Any advice/suggestions/comments for me?

Um see my previous post about you being amazing and proving you were town to me? You played brilliantly and I agree with Teproc that you would have been MVP had we won. This is why: despite the fact you were a VT, and couldn't claim a PR to prove you were town, you posted so much, and laid out so much reasoning, and had so many reactions and interactions to re-read, I became convinced you were town. That's what allowed me to create the Volt "trifecta" in the first place - by eliminating you and Nik (who didn't play that well (not bad though!) but my one special skill is the ability to tell the difference between new misguided town and new scum (sometimes, fairly often)).

Seriously though, just keep doing what you're doing. You'll have to learn to play as a PR (that can be different sometimes) and as scum eventually, but you nailed it this game.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Witherweaver on April 10, 2014, 01:39:39 pm
Any advice/suggestions/comments for me?

Um see my previous post about you being amazing and proving you were town to me? You played brilliantly and I agree with Teproc that you would have been MVP had we won. This is why: despite the fact you were a VT, and couldn't claim a PR to prove you were town, you posted so much, and laid out so much reasoning, and had so many reactions and interactions to re-read, I became convinced you were town. That's what allowed me to create the Volt "trifecta" in the first place - by eliminating you and Nik (who didn't play that well (not bad though!) but my one special skill is the ability to tell the difference between new misguided town and new scum (sometimes, fairly often)).

Seriously though, just keep doing what you're doing. You'll have to learn to play as a PR (that can be different sometimes) and as scum eventually, but you nailed it this game.

Okay, thanks!
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: shraeye on April 10, 2014, 02:14:06 pm
Also, just a PSA.

Lying as town is a radical move.  It is frequently wrong.  I gambled hardcore here, and after much deliberation to try it.  I did not succeed.  A mafia-meta-game-state in which people made those gambles on the regular would be chaos.  Utter chaos.  There are very good players who will as a firm policy always vote for people who lie, regardless of the circumstances, for this very reason.

Do not take away from this game the idea that such actions are reasonable.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Voltaire on April 10, 2014, 02:17:07 pm
And I would like to say that, since lying as town is a horrible move 99% of the time, I long to witness/participate in situations where it's that 1% of the time when it is amazing. Unfortunately, 1% is really rare.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 10, 2014, 03:13:38 pm
I was actually convinced that this was the 1%. I came into day 3 fairly certain that shraeye was going to beat us.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Robz888 on April 10, 2014, 03:54:03 pm
Also, just a PSA.

Lying as town is a radical move.  It is frequently wrong.  I gambled hardcore here, and after much deliberation to try it.  I did not succeed.  A mafia-meta-game-state in which people made those gambles on the regular would be chaos.  Utter chaos.  There are very good players who will as a firm policy always vote for people who lie, regardless of the circumstances, for this very reason.

Do not take away from this game the idea that such actions are reasonable.

+1
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: faust on April 12, 2014, 05:54:34 am
Any advice/suggestions/comments for me?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10674.0
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: faust on April 12, 2014, 05:55:37 am
Oh, you're already in :D Good. Then I have no further advice, except maybe try RMM15 if you want something a bit more crazy.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: Ichimaru Gin on April 21, 2014, 04:20:27 pm
And. I know this is really late.  ;D

But I just realized that as the doc I protected Shraeye (the cop) the one night I could--without even knowing it.
Title: Re: NewMafia V : House of Cards (Game Over : Mafia Wins !)
Post by: yuma on May 19, 2014, 05:33:28 pm
BTW... I am now officially addicted to this show! Not quite binge watching... but getting pretty close.

It is really well done. I love the asides from Frank. w/o those the show would fall incredibly flat, but the breaking of the third wall and the introspective narrative and especially the tone he takes with the audience makes the show what it is, especially when he does it in a crowd of people or in the middle of an intimate meeting. One episode I am hoping we get an aside from Claire...

Thanks for introducing this to me!