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Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Qvist on March 11, 2014, 07:48:45 am

Title: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Qvist on March 11, 2014, 07:48:45 am
The Best $3 Cards - Part 1/3

129 votes on this list.

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/b7/Chancellor.jpg/200px-Chancellor.jpg)#34 =0 Chancellor (Base) Weighted Average: 8.2% ▲3.8pp / Unweighted Average: 9.7% / Median: 6.1% ▲2.9pp / Standard Deviation: 14.8%

Chancellor stays the worst card in this list, without any doubt as it has the least deviation. It gained a lot of points though, but it's still not enough. It was voted 42 times on the last rank and 3 times above average.

Being in the Base Set, most players (like me) didn't got the use of Chancellor at first. Yes, it costs $3 like Silver and gives also 2 coins, but it costs an action for what? To put your deck into your discard pile? Why do I want to do that? You can get your recently bought great cards faster! Yeah, that sounds great. But those great cards are mostly terminals and then Chancellor becomes a dead card. I think it would be a better card if it wasn't terminal. So it only shines in rare scenarios like Stash or maybe Counting House and can be good in Potion games. But if you want to get your recently bought cards earlier, use cards that put these cards on top of your deck like Royal Seal, Watchtower or Armory.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/d6/Woodcutter.jpg/200px-Woodcutter.jpg)#33 =0 Woodcutter (Base) Weighted Average: 15.3% ▲1.5pp / Unweighted Average: 16.5% / Median: 9.1% ▼0.6pp / Standard Deviation: 17.0%

We're making a jump of over 7pp and there is the next card from the base set. It's slightly better than last time with a significant worse median, but still second last. It has the fifth least deviation. It was voted 15 times on the last rank and 8 times above average.

It is mostly worse than Silver as its only use is its +Buy. Sure, +Buy can be pretty important, especially in engine games, but still that makes it no power card as you still only buy it when there's no other card that provides that +Buy. There's not really much to say about that simple card.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/95/Great_Hall.jpg/200px-Great_Hall.jpg)#32 ▼2 Great Hall (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 16.8% ▼4.6pp / Unweighted Average: 21.9% / Median: 18.2% ▼4.4pp / Standard Deviation: 19.6%

Great Hall lost again some points and is 2 ranks worse than last year. Its unweighted average is clearly higher, so unexperienced players seem to overvalue it. It was voted last 13 times and 12 time above average.

There is not much to say to Great Hall beside how difficult it is to rank. It's often a consolation prize over an Estate as it is 1 point that doesn't hurt your deck (as long as you don't draw it dead), so that's really nice. But it might even sort of hurt with Golem or Wandering Minstrel in your deck. You can buy it early if you have an additional buy and $3 left and don't need another Silver. You can even use Throne Room or King's Court with it for additional benefit if you're really desperate. It can enable Conspirator chains and other rare cases where another cantrip is useful. The best combo might be with Ironworks where you can pick it up and get a cantrip bonus. But it's never a card you use for your strategy, instead you buy it if you have $3 left and don't need more money, then you're glad to pick another VP. And you often buy Estates in the end game, Estates you will may never see in your hand. In those cases it doesn't even matter if you pick up a Great Hall or an Estate.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Develop.jpg/200px-Develop.jpg)#31 ▲1 Develop (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 22.9% ▲7.3pp / Unweighted Average: 23.3% / Median: 18.2% ▲8.5pp / Standard Deviation: 17.8%

We're making the next big jump of over 6pp. Develop is still gaining momentum and went up again quite a bit, so it's one rank higher than last time. But it was still voted last 7 times and 11 times above average.

A good trasher mostly has to be a good start buy. Develop can only trash one copper at a time without benefit. You get a Silver for a trashed Estate, which can be put on top of your deck. That's at least really nice. Later in the game you get 2 cards for trashing one. This is something you only want if there are a lot of really good cards in the supply and most important in a specific price range because you have to gain a card which cost exactly one more and one less than the trashed card. Those cases are rare, but when it is one of those cases, Develop can be pretty good. It's good with good $5s and $7s like developing a Gold into a King's Court and a Wharf putting both on top of the deck. In the end of the game you want victory cards. Developing a Silver in an Estate and a Silk Road can be really nice for example. But you have to put them on your deck, really nasty, so be sure to end the game this turn. So it often fails in being a good trasher, you have to see it as a gainer instead. That's something that makes it tricky to play. It's really good in engines with many power cards, but is otherwise often ignorable.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/50/Workshop.jpg/200px-Workshop.jpg)#30 ▲1 Workshop (Base) Weighted Average: 24.5% ▲5.4pp / Unweighted Average: 24.4% / Median: 21.2% ▲5.1pp / Standard Deviation: 18.5%

And there's already the third card from the base set with only one card left to come in this list. It also gained some points and is one rank higher. It was voted 6 times on the last rank and 15 times above average.

You must ask yourself: How many $3 or $4 cards do I want in my deck? With Gardens in the supply, you may answer "as many I can get". Silver, Gardens, Estates and more Workshops are all good cards. But in most situations you want $5 cards and Gold. And in comparism to Ironworks where you get at least a benefit and which isn't terminal if you gain action cards, it's a "wasted" action. The are only a few cards that you want as many you can get, e.g. Tournament, Caravan, Conspirator and any Village + card drawer like Smithy to build your engine. But for all you have to spend your action and you have to be sure there isn't another terminal action you want to play too.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/55/Fortune_Teller.jpg/200px-Fortune_Teller.jpg)#29 =0 Fortune Teller (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 25.7% ▲2.6pp / Unweighted Average: 28.0% / Median: 28.3% ▲7.9pp / Standard Deviation: 19.6%

Fortune Teller is one of the worst attacks in the game and the first attack of all lists so far. It stays on the same rank and gained a little bit in points. It's a little bit overvalued by newer players. It has 4 last ranks.

In games with trashers you want your Estates in hand and get rid of them, especially with Lookout Fortune Teller is bad. If you've trashed them, Fortune Teller just cycles through your deck, so your opponent mostly profits from your attack. In Tournament and Tunnel games you may help your opponent even more. And in all other occasions there are mostly cards that soft counter top-decked victory cards or get profit from them by discarding. If those cases all don't exist, Fortune Teller might be a good buy, but those cases are very rare too. It gets better in the end game, but in the end game mostly you don't waste your buy for a Fortune Teller. And in comparism to Rabble which can be very nasty, Fortune Teller doesn't even get more benefit if you play twice or more in one turn.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/11/Loan.jpg/200px-Loan.jpg)#28 ▼1 Loan (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 29.0% ▲0.2pp / Unweighted Average: 29.3% / Median: 24.2% ▼1.6pp / Standard Deviation: 23.9%

Loan lost again one rank although it has nearly the same average value. It has the fifth highest deviation in this list. It was voted last 8 times.

You can trash without spending an action, that's always great. It also gives at least one coin which is no big deal, but is still better than Trade Route early. And you don't need to trash a card from your hand, so you have still 4 cards in your hand you can play. Seems great so far, right? But this is also a problem: That involves a luck factor as it may find every time your only Silver in your deck which you even can't play in your next turn (and may discard all your good power terminals at the same time). Also it's limited to treasure cards and therefore basically to Copper. So it has advantages and disadvantages and with some powerful trashers for $3 released lately the alternatives are often superior.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/a7/Trade_Route.jpg/200px-Trade_Route.jpg)#27 ▼2 Trade Route (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 31.2% ▼3.7pp / Unweighted Average: 36.4% / Median: 30.3% ▼5.2pp / Standard Deviation: 25.3%

Trade Route lost 2 ranks with being nearly 4pp worse. It has the third highest deviation in this list. It was voted 3 times last and 19 times below 10%. It's also really overvalued by newer players and would be even three ranks higher in the unweighted list.

It's not a very good trasher as an opening buy as you don't get enough benefit until the end of the game unless you're building an engine with low cost cards and you desperately need the trashing or the +buy. It's better if there are additional victory cards in the supply, especially action/victory cards like Island or Nobles that get bought earlier, but still, as a trasher it's no good opening buy. Buying green cards earlier just to get more benefit is rarely a good decision as your opponent may buy Trade Routes too and get the same benefit without clogging up his own deck. Mostly you buy it if it's the only source of +Buy and you really need that +Buy and later in the game where you're going green and it's really a neck-and-neck-race, so Trade Routes are now worth $3, $4 or even more. Then they can be really powerful. The difference in strength through the game may be the reason for the disagreement in the votes.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/05/Smugglers.jpg/200px-Smugglers.jpg)#26 ▲2 Smugglers (Seaside) Weighted Average: 33.1% ▲5.6pp / Unweighted Average: 35.9% / Median: 33.3% ▲9.3pp / Standard Deviation: 23.0%

Smugglers is now 2 ranks higher with being over 5pp better. It was voted 4 times last and 15 times below 10%.

Its strenth depends of the board and the luck factor is high. Gainers are valued higher than they used to be, but if your opponent has bought a card which you don't want, it's a dead card, especially later in the game where he buys only Provinces. And with Smugglers in your deck, you have to commit to the strategy of your opponent and have a hard time getting better than him. Smuggle a Gold early or smuggle an additional Duchy (especially with Duke) in the late game is really nice, but with a supply with many terminals, you rather buy the good terminals and money instead of wasting your action for getting another Silver or another terminal you won't be able to play. But if there are many cantrips and you're going to build a neat engine, Smugglers can be a good buy. And if you're not going first you can compensate this disadvantage. King's Courting a Smugglers can also be very strong in a good running engine. We can say, Smugglers is very board-dependant and can be a very good buy on some boards, especially if you're not going first.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/70/Sage.jpg/200px-Sage.jpg)#25 ▼5 Sage (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 33.5% ▼13.0pp / Unweighted Average: 36.0% / Median: 33.3% ▼15.1pp / Standard Deviation: 20.5%

Sage is the big loser in this list. 5 ranks lower and 13pp worse, wow! It was voted 14 times below 10% and 7 times above 75%.

Sage can be a great opener, especially with Marauder or Sea Hag where it helps to play the curser basically every turn and also skip over Curses/Ruins later in the game. It helps also to get other key cards like Potion or trashers in your hand that you want to have early. Don't fear to add Silver to your deck because it still helps you to cycle faster. But otherwise it often plays as a weak Scheme because you can't choose the card you want to have in your hand. And it gets worse and worse the longer the game lasts and it soon may put a Province in your hand.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Wishing_Well.jpg/200px-Wishing_Well.jpg)#24 ▲2 Wishing Well (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 36.7% ▲1.9pp / Unweighted Average: 34.2% / Median: 30.3% ▼2.0pp / Standard Deviation: 22.0%

Wishing Well has a slightly better average, but is 2 ranks better. In the unweighted list it would be 3 ranks lower, so newer players undervalue it. It was voted on the last rank twice and even 21 times below 10%.

Wishing Well is both a high skill and a high luck-dependent card. How is that possible? First, it's a cantrip, so it rarely hurts. But if you don't guess correctly it does you no good and you rather buy a Silver. One problem is that you have to guess the second card, so that cards like Spy, Lookout that seem to synergize don't work. But with cards like Apothecary or Cartographer it works really well. Then it can be a guaranteed cheap Laboratory. In Colony games where you don't want to have many Silvers and especially when your money average is higher than $2, Wishing Well is a good choice. And in some decks you only buy a few different cards, so you can maximize your probability. And if you're really good with card counting, this is really a good card if there are few cards left in your draw pile. It's also a very good counter against Ghost Ship.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Qvist on March 11, 2014, 07:49:02 am
The Best $3 Cards - Part 2/3

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/8e/Shanty_Town.jpg/200px-Shanty_Town.jpg)#23 ▲1 Shanty Town (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 38.3% ▲3.2pp / Unweighted Average: 38.4% / Median: 36.4% ▲4.1pp / Standard Deviation: 23.1%

Shanty Town is over 3pp higher and one rank better. It was voted 12 times below 10% and 9 times above 75%.

Shanty Town is a very problematic village. If you want villages you have many terminals and want to build an engine. Shanty Town is bad as it only gives you +2 Actions and is actually a Necropolis. And if you have multiple Shanty Towns in hand and no terminals, it's even worse. The best use is to minimize bad draw luck, when you have many terminals, but have the bad luck to not draw them with your village. Then you have a second shot to draw them with your +2 Cards. And if you have 2 Shanty Towns and 1 terminal in hand, it's not bad after all. Play your first Shanty Town, then your terminal and then you can play the second one and hopefully draw more terminals. But the raw benefit is in this case the same as you would get out of a "normal" Village. And sometimes it's a neat addition to a deck with very few terminals, then Shanty Town serves like a Laboratory for you.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/09/Masterpiece.jpg/200px-Masterpiece.jpg)#22 Masterpiece (Guilds) Weighted Average: 38.6% / Unweighted Average: 39.2% / Median: 33.3% / Standard Deviation: 27.5%

Masterpiece is the first of the two new Guilds cards. It has the highest deviation in this list, with having 5 last ranks and being voted 23 times below 10% on one hand and having 3 first ranks and being voted 17 times above 75% on the other hand.

Masterpiece is the new shiny BM card. Beside the obvious mega-powerful Feodum combo, it's still very useful on BM boards. As the on-play effect is only a Copper, it's a bad card on its own and a great target for Swindler, so you really have to evaluate the overpay effect. You really don't buy it for $3 or $4 as a Silver is the better option. For $5 it's pretty similar to Cache as you get 3 cards with a value of $5 together, but Cache isn't a really strong card either. But with $6 or more Masterpiece really starts to shine. 3 Silvers and a Copper vs. a Gold is often a tough call and depends heavily on your deck, but we all know since Jack of All Trades that silver flood can be a very powerful strategy. If hit $7 or more early in the game and there aren't strong terminals that you still like to play regularly, Masterpiece a great buy.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c6/Lookout.jpg/200px-Lookout.jpg)#21 =0 Lookout (Seaside) Weighted Average: 41.5% ▲1.1pp / Unweighted Average: 42.7% / Median: 42.4% ▲5.7pp / Standard Deviation: 23.0%

We're making a jump of nearly 3pp and there's a card which stayed where it was and also has a similar average value.

The positive part is: It's a non-terminal trasher which is of course very powerful. It can trash a card which is even not in your hand. It also counters top-deck-attacks, especially Sea Hag, very well. And with the support of "spying" cards you are guaranteed trashing a bad card. All this is similar to Loan. But Loan can only trash the first card. With Lookout you can even choose between three cards. But in the late game, it's a dead card in your hand, because it becomes dangerous. Who doesn't fear drawing 3 Provinces or even Colonies and having to trash one? The fear isn't justified mostly, but you have to keep that in mind. But like Loan, Lookout has also the problem of having tough competition as there were strong $3 trashers released lately.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/b4/Storeroom.jpg/200px-Storeroom.jpg)#20 ▼2 Storeroom (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 43.4% ▼7.6pp / Unweighted Average: 45.0% / Median: 45.5% ▼6.1pp / Standard Deviation: 21.5%

Storeroom is the next big Dark Ages loser. It lost 2 ranks and over 7pps. It was voted 17 times below 20% and 10 times above 75%.

Storeroom is generally a weak card, but can shine in a handful of situations. It is more like an upgraded Secret Chamber, than an upgraded Cellar. Its discarding makes it one of the best Tunnel enablers, and it comboes well with Tactician, Scrying Pool and in draw-up-to-X engines or Menagerie. But it works especially well with important treasure cards. Almost every Potion cost card synergizes well with it and Storeroom+Philosopher's Stone might be the best one as it is similar to Herbalist+Philosopher's Stone. But the buy and cycling is also great with Fool's Gold, Quarry and decent with Ill-Gotten-Gains. It also guarantees to get to $4 for sure in games without discarding attacks which is great with Gardens. But in most other games this card isn't worth picking up.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/fc/Oasis.jpg/200px-Oasis.jpg)#19 ▲1 Oasis (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 43.7% ▲1.4pp / Unweighted Average: 45.2% / Median: 45.5% ▲0.5pp / Standard Deviation: 20.3%

Oasis is again one rank higher than last year with 17 votes below 20% and only 9 voted above 75%.

At first I read it as "+1 Action $1", basically a Copper. But it's much better as you get money out of your victory cards or curses, like Vault or Secret Chamber do. It's limited to one card, but it is a cantrip. It's not a very strong card, but it is a very nice addition to many strategies, especially if there's no heavy trashing possible and is especially good on cursing boards or on boards with early greening. If there are hand-size reducing attacks on the board, Oasis is on the other side rarely a good buy. It synergizes well with "draw up to" cards like Jack of All Trades.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/fa/Black_Market.jpg/200px-Black_Market.jpg)#18 ▲4 Black Market (Promo) Weighted Average: 45.3% ▲8.3pp / Unweighted Average: 45.9% / Median: 42.4% ▲6.4pp / Standard Deviation: 25.3%

Black Market is a big winner this year. It is 4 ranks higher and over 8pp better. But it has still a high deviation, the fourth highest in this list as it was voted last 5 times and 7 times first. :O

It's hated by many players as it has a very high luck factor. You may draw in turn 3 the only curse-giving attack in the game, but you may also draw Treasure Map, Fool's Gold and Peddler. Or you draw 3 potion cost cards when you don't have a Potion in play or even in your deck. Playing your treasures in the buy phase can lead to many confusing rules questions, but can also lead to the well-known Tactician + Black Market combo where you can discard your hand in a Tactician turn with another Tactician after you've played all your treasures with Black Market. Many Cornucopia cards also benefit from the diversity you add to your deck by buying many cards from Black Market. The most famous combo may be Fairgrounds + Black Market where Fairgrounds can easily be worth 6VP but even 8VP or more are possible. But also cards like Harvest or Menagerie benefit from such diverse decks you can get from Black Market. So when do you really want to buy a Black Market when there's no Fairgrounds or Tactician in the supply? On weak boards it might worth it or you know there are many good attacks in the Black Market pile and don't want your opponent get them or you don't want to win at all costs and just have fun playing with it and your friends and rely on your luck.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c2/Tunnel.jpg/200px-Tunnel.jpg)#17 ▼4 Tunnel (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 47.0% ▼11.8pp / Unweighted Average: 50.8% / Median: 54.6% ▼5.4pp / Standard Deviation: 21.3%

Tunnel is the next big loser in this list. It lost 4 ranks and nearly 12 percentage points. That's a lot. It would be still 2 ranks higher in the unweighted list.

Tunnels 2VP for only $3 is already very good. You have to pay $2 more for getting one point more. And the Reaction part is really strong. Mostly there is at least one card on the board which can trigger it. It combos great with Vault, Embassy, Warehouse, Cartographer, Storeroom, Young Witch and such. Tunnel can be one of the rare scenarios when buying a victory card as an opening buy can be really good (beside Island). It's also a great defense card against Discarding Attacks like Militia, Goons or Margrave or even Minion. On boards with many discarding synergies, you mostly can observe a rush for Tunnels. And then not only the Tunnels can deplete, the Gold pile can too. But still it's very situational. If there's no action which can discard, Tunnel is nice in the late game if you miss $5, but no game changer.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/b2/Doctor.jpg/200px-Doctor.jpg)#16 Doctor (Guilds) Weighted Average: 48.8% / Unweighted Average: 49.7% / Median: 51.5% / Standard Deviation: 26.6%

Doctor is the better rated Guilds card and the card with the second highest deviation in this list.

Doctor is a cross between Chapel and Lookout. It can trash as fast as Chapel but behaves similar as Lookout. What makes the card strong is that you can trash immediately 2 cards on a 5/2 opening and maybe even play it on turn 2 again to trash again, what makes it incredibly fast. Another advantage is that it trashes cards that are not in your hand, so you can trash up to 3 cards and still buy something what can be very powerful. But this can also be a disadvantage when you are down to 5 cards, as you can't trash the last couple of bad cards. Another disadvantage is that you have to name the card you want to trash what makes it weak with Shelters and against Looter attacks and also very swingy after the first few shuffles. Of course another disadvantage in comparism to Lookout is that it is terminal. You can also pick up Doctor mid-game with a huge overpay and as long as you don't use your Coppers to overpay for it, it can be a very powerful move. All the advantages and disadvantages made it end up in the middle of this list.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/97/Oracle.jpg/200px-Oracle.jpg)#15 ▼1 Oracle (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 49.4% ▼4.3pp / Unweighted Average: 47.5% / Median: 48.5% ▼3.1pp / Standard Deviation: 21.8%

Oracle lost over 4pp and one rank. It would be 2 ranks lower in the unweighted list.

A 2 card-drawer with a spy-effect seems so innocent. But sometimes you even prefer it to Smithy which itself is a good $4 card. You can use it very well in Big Money games where the additional attack part comes handy. The problem with the attack is - like Spy - you do little damage with messing up the top cards. But discarding 2 cards to draw the next two helps cycling through your deck in the early game. But you draw still only 2 cards what is still not very good if you use it in an engine. And the luck factor is high and you have to make hard decisions. Do you want to make your opponent discard the Silver and Estate? It really depends on the cards he has in hand, but you don't know that. On the other side, it's great if you can discard two Golds. So, the attack part is weak, mostly you buy it because you need the +2 cards with the minimized draw luck, which is good in Big Money.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/5a/Village.jpg/200px-Village.jpg)#14 ▲1 Village (Base) Weighted Average: 52.5% ▲0.3pp / Unweighted Average: 52.1% / Median: 54.6% ▲6.2pp / Standard Deviation: 20.6%

Village is the first above average card. It has nearly the same average value, but is one rank higher.

Vanilla village is very hard to rank. How do you rank a card that does nothing beside giving an additional action? It's a card that is important for all engines, but is useless if "Big Money" is the dominant strategy. It's no exciting card for sure, when there are all other engine components there you're glad to have it. Its ranking greatly reflects the relevance of engines on an average board.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f1/Market_Square.jpg/200px-Market_Square.jpg)#13 ▼3 Market Square (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 57.8% ▼4.3pp / Unweighted Average: 57.8% / Median: 60.6% ▼7.1pp / Standard Deviation: 19.3%

We're making a jump of over 5 percentage points. Market Square clearly isn't the best Dark Ages card in this list anymore. It lost over 4 percentage points and even 3 ranks.

Both gold gaining Reaction cards lost a significant amount of points. The Gold gaining is even easier to activate on average than with Tunnel and it's a cantrip, so it doesn't hurt if you don't draw it with a trashing card. Market Square + Masquerade is great because you can convert Coppers into Golds and you can still play Market Square for the cantrip +buy if you want to. Even more powerful is the amazing Hermit/Market Square combo, and Apprentice/Market Square is also great. Speaking of cantrip +Buy. On every board where you want +Buy, a cantrip +Buy alone is even reason enough gaining one Market Square. And Market Square is great as a defense against trashing attacks like Swindler or Knights.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/8d/Scheme.jpg/200px-Scheme.jpg)#12 ▼3 Scheme (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 58.2% ▼6.7pp / Unweighted Average: 60.1% / Median: 63.6% ▼0.9pp / Standard Deviation: 19.5%

Just like Market Square, Scheme also lost 3 ranks and even more value, nearly 7 percentage points! It was voted 9 times below 30% and would be one rank higher in the unweighted list.

Scheme is a cantrip and mostly don't hurt in your deck as long as you don't draw it dead. But how big is the benefit? If you're building an engine around a key card (like Hunting Party), Scheme is very handy as you can be sure to have that card in hand nearly every turn. With +Buy you could even buy more Schemes to add to your engine. Even with a simpler strategy, but a strong attack, Scheme is very nice, as is basically replaces the second copy of that strong attack card and you eliminate the possibility of colliding. As Double Ambassador is already a strong opening, on those boards you really want to open Ambassador/Scheme and you can later use the Scheme to top deck another card if you want to. The same applies to other strong attacks like Sea Hag. Be aware of Minion, as Minion could completely destroy your top-decking. Scrying Pool + Scheme is good, Golem + Scheme + strong attack is strong and King's Court + Scheme is just crazy. On the other hand, in big money games or with very thin decks, Scheme is not worth a buy.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/74/Urchin.jpg/200px-Urchin.jpg)#11 ▲5 Urchin (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 60.3% ▲9.3pp / Unweighted Average: 58.0% / Median: 60.6% ▲2.5pp / Standard Deviation: 21.8%

Urchin made a big jump of 5 ranks and over 9pp and is a big winner. It was still voted 16 times below 30%.

Urchin is a weak attack. It hurts rarely, only in really thin decks and is in the beginning at best a cantrip Cutpurse, but often worse because you have mostly an Estate/Shelter in hand. Its best use is to use its ability to convert it into a Mercenary. Mercenary itself is a big deal on many boards, especially if it is the only trasher on the board. You often open triple Urchin, just to be able to get one or two Mercenaries as fast as possible. Later in the game you might run out of fodder for Mercenary, but then your deck is usually in a very good shape, so you don't care anymore.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Qvist on March 11, 2014, 07:49:09 am
The Best $3 Cards - Part 3/3
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Warehouse.jpg/200px-Warehouse.jpg)#10 ▼3 Warehouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 65.0% ▼5.8pp / Unweighted Average: 64.3% / Median: 69.7% ▼4.5pp / Standard Deviation: 19.9%

Warehouse is 3 ranks and nearly 6pp lower than last year. It was voted 28 times below average and 3 times first. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list.

Warehouse is the better Cellar, it is a very useful deck sifter. You can draw 3 cards and discard the most useless ones. It's also a card that works fine with Tunnel and of course with any Attack as it is non-terminal and can draw your terminals more often. It's also great if you want cards together that gain strength when they collide, like Fool's Gold or Treasure Map. Because you have one card less in hand after you played it, it synergizes with "draw up to" cards. And you can even play it if your hand is good and discard the useless cards on top of your deck (which are coincidental there or from any Attack like Rabble). It loses power on boards with discard attacks, but with cursing attacks it's great. It's a great addition to any deck which isn't a terminal draw Big Money deck.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/8e/Hermit.jpg/200px-Hermit.jpg)#9 ▲2 Hermit (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 68.0% ▲7.5pp / Unweighted Average: 63.7% / Median: 69.7% ▲5.2pp / Standard Deviation: 22.6%

Hermit is 2 ranks and over 7pp better, but still not the best Dark Ages card. It was voted 34 times below average and 2 times first. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted list.

Some call it already "Jack-of-all-Trades light". Trashing from your discard pile is great, especially in cursing games and therefore even better than JaoT's trashing ability. It can also gain Silver, but also more Hermits or whatever you want for $3 less, the gaining is therefore even more flexible. On the other side it cannot defend against discarding attacks or top-decking attacks like Jack can. But it can transform into a Madmen, a double-your-handsize village which is great on boards with +Buy and also not so great on boards with discarding attacks. It's also part of the amazingly powerful Hermit/Market Square combo. So, alltogether it's a very versatile card.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c2/Watchtower.jpg/200px-Watchtower.jpg)#8 =0 Watchtower (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 71.6% ▲2.2pp / Unweighted Average: 69.1% / Median: 72.7 ▼1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 19.8%

Watchtower is slightly better, but stayed where it was. It was voted 19 times below average and 3 times first.

Watchtower is still the best of the 3 Reaction cards. Watchtower is very versatile what makes it a great card. At first it can draw up to 6 cards what makes it a worse Library and is great in Hamlet, Fishing Village, Festival and especially University or other decks where the non-terminals draw equal or less cards than you discard. Then it is even an Smithy equivalent. Even if two Watchtowers collide you can use the Reaction part from the second Watchtower for the card you buy. You can put your new card on top of your deck and have it in your hand in the next turn. But Watchtower is even a better defense card. The strongest attacks are Cursing and Discarding Attacks. You can trash the gained Curses immediately and can draw to a more than full hand after discarding. And, with one of the discarding attacks it combos too: Goons / Watchtower is great as you can buy additional Coppers or Curses for VPs and can trash them immediately without clogging up. And with Dark Ages it got a big boost. With a gainer you can trigger all the on-trash effects on gain. This allows crazy stuff like playing a Goons and a Familiar turn 3 with Squire or gain a Fortress with Workshop and put it directly into your hand or remodel into a Cultist just to trash it and draw 3 cards.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e6/Forager.jpg/200px-Forager.jpg)#7 ▲6 Forager (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 76.7% ▲19.9pp / Unweighted Average: 72.8% / Median: 78.8% ▲17.5pp / Standard Deviation: 20.7%

Forager is now the best Dark Ages card in this list. And it is THE winner of this list. It's nearly 20pp better and is 6 ranks higher, that's impressive. It was voted 16 times below average and first once.

Non-terminal trashers are always strong and Forager is the best out of the comparable Lookout and Loan in this list. It has also the important buy you often need for engines. It's also a weaker version of Spice Merchant as it both offers the buy and is non-terminal, but it lacks the draw what is the biggest drawback of this card as it decreases the handsize by two (Lookout and Loan don't do that). The variable bonus part makes it similar to Trade Route, but is non-terminal and gets more coins in the beginning what makes it a way better opening. This is also great with trashing attacks or trash for benefit cards where Gold and Silver easily gets in the trash.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/71/Menagerie.jpg/200px-Menagerie.jpg)#6 ▼2 Menagerie (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 79.3% ▼6.5pp / Unweighted Average: 78.1% / Median: 81.8% ▼5.3pp / Standard Deviation: 17.1%

Menagerie lost over 6pp and 2 ranks. It was voted only 10 times below average and was voted first twice.

Menagerie can be very strong, a double-Laboratory, or only a cantrip. Ok, it only hurts when you draw it dead, but it sill needs enablers like cards that can discard (best: non-terminal like Warehouse or Hamlet) or heavy-trashing (to get rid of your Coppers) to use its full strength. Its best use may be to counter Discarding attacks. After a Militia or Goons attacks, just play Menagerie and you have a 5-card-hand again. Of course it's also good if there are many good cards on the board you want to have, or you buy many good cards out of the Black Market deck, so you can maximize the possibilty to have different cards in the deck. In comparism to Warehouse its not always a good addition to your deck, but when it is, it's so good. You definitely need luck to enable it, but you get different cards so fast and if you get rid of your Coppers, that's often the case.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e7/Swindler.jpg/200px-Swindler.jpg)#5 =0 Swindler (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 80.8% ▼0.1pp / Unweighted Average: 78.7% / Median: 84.9% ▲0.9pp / Standard Deviation: 18.5%

Swindler basically didn't change at all. It was voted 11 times below average and first twice.

Swindler is the second best of the five $3 Attack cards. It's a great opening buy and can turn the Coppers of the opponents into Curses. Later in the game it can turn the new good $5 cards into Duchies. With special cards on the board, the punishing can even be worse, like swindling the only Potion into a Treasure Map or Coppersmith or vice versa, turning the Sea Hag into a Potion. But it's highly luck-dependant. Both players may open Swindler and one can turn the other Swindler into a Chancellor. Or you hit 3 Coppers and turn them into Curses and your opponent hit 3 Estates and turn them into ... Estates. Bad luck! With Dark Ages, Swindler is even more luck-dependant, hitting an Overgrown Estate let your opponent draw a card and trash it without replacement. Of course you can decrease bad luck by adding a Spy-like attack, but most of the time it's not worth it. Beware with Peddler on board. Trashing a Province and turning into a Peddler, great. Hitting a Peddler when the Peddlers are out, bad! And beware in the end game. Hitting a Curse when the Curses are out is suboptimal, but hitting a Province and giving your opponent the last Province, can win or lose you the game.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/88/Steward.jpg/200px-Steward.jpg)#4 ▲2 Steward (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 84.5% ▲5.0pp / Unweighted Average: 81.4% / Median: 84.9% ▲1.0pp / Standard Deviation: 15.7%

Steward is now in the Top 5 and is 5pp better. It has the third lowest deviation in this list. It was voted 7 times below average and 3 times first.

Steward's strength is its flexibility. It's one of the rare trashers that are good openers and still good later in the game, in this case for $2 or 2 cards. It leads to very difficult decisions (Steward and 4 Coppers: Trashing or Gold?) but either decision is strong. And it is also rare for a non-attack card that is terminal to say about: "It is usually a good buy", so good that you often want to open double Steward, just to guarantee to trash fast enough.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3b/Fishing_Village.jpg/200px-Fishing_Village.jpg)#3 =0 Fishing Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 85.8% ▼6.4pp / Unweighted Average: 84.8% / Median: 87.9% ▼5.6pp / Standard Deviation: 15.4%

Fishing Village had quite a lead, so it's still on #3 even though it lost over 6 percentage points. It has the second lowest deviation in this list, was voted 6 times below average and 5 times first.

What makes Fishing Village a good village, one of the best in the game? It hasn't 2 of the biggest problems in combination with villages. 1.) A Smithy-Village chain still may lack the money. FV gives money instead of a card. 2.) You draw 2 terminals with no village in hand. FV gives also an additional action in the following turn and therefore a total of 3 actions, minimizing the chances of not being able to play colliding terminals. So, if you're definitely going to build an unstoppable engine, buy as many FVs as you can. FV / Wharf is so much superior than Smithy / Village and FV / Torturer can hurt so much. You only don't want to buy it if you're going BM.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/74/Ambassador.jpg/200px-Ambassador.jpg)#2 ▼1 Ambassador (Seaside) Weighted Average: 93.6% ▼3.9pp / Unweighted Average: 89.8% / Median: 97.0% ▼3.0pp / Standard Deviation: 18.0%

We're crossing a gap of nearly 8pp and Ambassador isn't the strongest card in this list anymore. It's underrated by newer players, but it would still be #1 in the unweighted list. It was voted 6 times below average and 36 times on the first rank.

Let's start Ambassador war! In some games the ping-pong of Estates of Coppers is so important that you rather risk open Double-Ambassador and colliding two Ambassadors instead of losing the Ambassador war. Some say it's undercosted and the best attack relative to its cost. You can even buy a curse and turn Ambassador into a Curser. If you lose the Ambassador war badly, there's no good chance to recover and building a good engine. But beware: Don't forget building up your own economy. Your opponent is flooded with Coppers and Estates. But he can buy good cards too, so don't forget that. But the power is undeniable. Tournament / Ambassador used to be the overall second best opening on Councilroom with many other good openings in the Top 100. But it lost a bit in strength since Dark Ages as Shelters weaken it significantly.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/0e/Masquerade.jpg/200px-Masquerade.jpg)#1 ▲1 Masquerade (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 93.6% ▼0.3pp / Unweighted Average: 89.3% / Median: 97.0% ▲0.3pp / Standard Deviation: 15.7%

It was so close. Only 0.02pp was Masquerade better than Ambassador. In the unweighted list Ambassador is rated higher. Masquerade was voted 7 times below average, but 45 times on the first rank (9 more than Ambassador).

At first it seems so harmless (at least to me). Even though it is no attack by definition, it can feel like it is one. I cannot desribe the power of Masquerade better than theory did: "By drawing 2 cards, Masquerade combines solid buying power with its deck-thinning, thus allowing you to improve your deck along two axes at once." It's a hard counter to cursing attacks, so you may even choose not to go for the cursing attack with Masquerade on the board. And if you have a discarding attack and play Masquerade afterwards it's even a harder attack, allowing the (in)famous Masquerade pin. It dominates nearly all games; it's great for simple Big Money and it's great in engines too and it's a defense against cursing what do you want more?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: jsh357 on March 11, 2014, 09:08:10 am
This list... I have some major disagreements here.

Pretty sick of seeing Chancellor at the bottom of the $3 pile.  Its ability is much more useful than people give it credit, especially in games where you need to reset your shuffle (Potion games) more often.  I mean, I had it as third worst, but it's the principle of the thing.  I'll admit that Scavenger is what made me see Chancellor is a new light, but I'm glad I did.  Not that Scavenger isn't way better.

Woodcutter is a +buy.  I'm sorry, but that makes it better than a Great Hall to me. 

I could say similar things about Workshop, though I probably had it rated way too highly (#26).

Develop remains the most egregious misrank.  I had it at #18 personally.  It's true that a lot of people don't understand how to play it effectively, but the combination of topdecking and gaining two potentially good cards is a clearly overlooked benefit.  I have found the key to Develop is not to see it as an earlygame trasher but a midgame Remodel variant, which is where it truly shines and proves it's far better than #31 at any rate.

Sage should be even lower than it dropped to, in my opinion.  It has uses, but often does very little for you over other $3 options.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: silverspawn on March 11, 2014, 09:20:53 am
Yea, i think the "oh it doesn't hurt" benefit is a little bit overappreciated. I also had woodcutter over great hall.

aside from that, i think workshop, develop and smugglers are too low. i'd rather have oasis or oracle included in the bottom 10
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Jean-Michel on March 11, 2014, 09:35:56 am
Sage is a bit like Feast. It's useful but it provides only a small benefit. Usually Silver is better.

I really think that Wishing Well and Develop should swap places.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on March 11, 2014, 12:48:42 pm
Ehh, I don't have much thoughts so far.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Robz888 on March 11, 2014, 12:52:20 pm
This list is fine. Fortune Teller should be higher, though. Higher than Loan. Fortune Teller hurts.

Wishing Well is too low.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: markusin on March 11, 2014, 01:35:31 pm
This list is fine. Fortune Teller should be higher, though. Higher than Loan. Fortune Teller hurts.

Wishing Well is too low.
I agree with the Fortune Teller being higher than Loan. For some reason though, I have Wishing Well lower than where it is. I mean, I think it's way better than Great Hall, but my ranking doesn't quite reflect that.

I only card here I don't have in my 24th and lower ranking is Smugglers, which I have at 19. It's really neat in mirror matches. I have Masterpiece at 24th instead.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 11, 2014, 01:42:16 pm
This list is fine. Fortune Teller should be higher, though. Higher than Loan. Fortune Teller hurts.

Wishing Well is too low.
I agree with the Fortune Teller being higher than Loan. For some reason though, I have Wishing Well lower than where it is. I mean, I think it's way better than Great Hall, but my ranking doesn't quite reflect that.

I only card here I don't have in my 24th and lower ranking is Smugglers, which I have at 19. It's really neat in mirror matches. I have Masterpiece at 24th instead.
I had Masterpiece at 5th. I might be biased because I often get games with Masterpiece and Council Room due to the small amount of expansions I own on Goko, though.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Robz888 on March 11, 2014, 01:44:02 pm
Oh yeah, well Masterpiece belongs down here. Masterpiece got ranked higher than Wishing Well????!!!!

I had Masterpiece at 5th. I might be biased because I often get games with Masterpiece and Council Room due to the small amount of expansions I own on Goko, though.

Um, yeah, absolutely. Masterpiece is good in BM, but BM sucks. It's part of the ridiculously strong Feodum combo, but that's about all.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: jaybeez on March 11, 2014, 01:48:13 pm
Wishing Well, they done you wrong.  #24, people?  Really?  And to think that represents an improvement.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 11, 2014, 01:53:31 pm
Um, yeah, absolutely. Masterpiece is good in BM, but BM without Masterpiece sucks.
FTFY
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Jean-Michel on March 11, 2014, 01:55:39 pm
I think Wishing Well is terrible. It almost never draws anything except Copper and maybe something better at the end of the shuffle. Yes, it's a cantrip but does being not harmful mean the card is good (scout)?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on March 11, 2014, 02:02:57 pm
I think Wishing Well is terrible. It almost never draws anything except Copper and maybe something better at the end of the shuffle. Yes, it's a cantrip but does being not harmful mean the card is good (scout)?

It is a cantrip opening which lets you hit $5 in the early game. Being able to develop your deck quickly without excessive early Silvers is a big deal.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 11, 2014, 02:07:04 pm
I think Wishing Well is terrible. It almost never draws anything except Copper and maybe something better at the end of the shuffle. Yes, it's a cantrip but does being not harmful mean the card is good (scout)?
Drawing Copper is pretty good, since not only does it give you an extra $1 this turn, it also replaces a Copper from your next hand with another card. That's as good as Ironmonger hitting a Copper, and that's a powerful $4 card.

And Scout is actually slightly harmful quite often.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Polk5440 on March 11, 2014, 02:13:40 pm
I was expecting Develop to remain underrated, but Workshop? Bigger mis-ranking than anything on the lists so far. Wishing well is a little low, too, but only if you have the skill to know what to guess.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: DStu on March 11, 2014, 02:19:13 pm
I was expecting Develop to remain underrated, but Workshop? Bigger mis-ranking than anything on the lists so far. Wishing well is a little low, too, but only if you have the skill to know what to guess.
Workshop is bad because Armory exists...
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 11, 2014, 02:25:36 pm
I was expecting Develop to remain underrated, but Workshop? Bigger mis-ranking than anything on the lists so far. Wishing well is a little low, too, but only if you have the skill to know what to guess.
Workshop is bad because Armory exists...
Cellar is bad because Warehouse exists.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: AHoppy on March 11, 2014, 02:51:19 pm
I was expecting Develop to remain underrated, but Workshop? Bigger mis-ranking than anything on the lists so far. Wishing well is a little low, too, but only if you have the skill to know what to guess.
Workshop is bad because Armory exists...
Armory is bad because Ironworks exists

Not that armory is bad, I just prefer Ironworks in more situations...
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Alexmf on March 11, 2014, 03:02:15 pm
My thoughts on the first part of this list:

- In the ruins-list, people put ruined market on #2 because it might be the only +buy in the game. Here, Woodcutter is second-last. Strange.
- Great Hall is really not a great card, but of course it is still bought in a reasonable number of games because of its dual-type nature, its cantrip nature and because it's better than estate. Thus I don't think it belongs even lower on this list.
- Workshop and Wishing Well seem underrated to me
- Sage's drop is well justified, in my opinion
- very surprised to not see Masterpiece down here. I had it on #27 and thought that was way too high
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Tables on March 11, 2014, 03:12:37 pm
Workshop is bad because Armory exists
Armory is bad because Ironworks exists
Ironworks is bad because Workshop exists.

No I don't actually believe this to be the case.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: shark_bait on March 11, 2014, 03:12:48 pm
Awaclus, my fellow Masterpiece lover, your partner is here.

I don't understand the Masterpiece hate, it really is the best addition to BM that we've seen since JoaT.  What Masterpiece excels at is greening on Duchies.  While normal BM strategies usually wait until 4 Provinces left to buy Duchies, Masterpiece decks start greening on Duchies with upwards of 6 Provinces left in deck (possibility even 8 if a dud draw is had at the start of a draw deck).  Despite earlier greening, the ability to buy Province is retained.  This constant stream of points puts pressure of an engine player that can't handle as much green.

I wish CR had stats up for Goko, I'm convinced that my Win Rate when Gained for Masterpiece would be extremely high.  Obviously you won't do Masterpiece on every board but it is an extremely strong BM enabler and I think that it has a very large niche wherein it fills that role exceptionally well.

For reference, I had Masterpiece at #13 in my list.

Look at the following reference that I wrote awhile back as to why Masterpiece is under-rated.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9376.msg320971#msg320971
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: silverspawn on March 11, 2014, 03:26:30 pm
masterpiece is most definitely not deserving of a bottom #10 place. I had it at #12. it says it likes it up there.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: eHalcyon on March 11, 2014, 03:50:27 pm
Yea, i think the "oh it doesn't hurt" benefit is a little bit overappreciated. I also had woodcutter over great hall.

aside from that, i think workshop, develop and smugglers are too low. i'd rather have oasis or oracle included in the bottom 10

Booooo, Oasis and Oracle are both good cards.  Workshop is not useful often enough and there are usually better alternatives, while Smugglers is just too unreliable most of the time.  Develop definitely deserves better.  Oasis is useful quite often and Oracle is a very decent drawer thanks to the filtering.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: silverspawn on March 11, 2014, 03:56:35 pm
I know that oracle has some fans, but oasis? come on...
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: eHalcyon on March 11, 2014, 03:58:06 pm
I know that oracle has some fans, but oasis? come on...

Oasis is no star, but it's a solid card and a fine addition to most decks. :)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Witherweaver on March 11, 2014, 04:02:21 pm
Huh, I always kind of confuse Oracle and Fortune Teller, but when I remember which one is which I often think of Fortune Teller as the stronger one.  Everyone thinks Oracle is a lot better?  Because of the filtering option?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: jsh357 on March 11, 2014, 04:04:45 pm
Huh, I always kind of confuse Oracle and Fortune Teller, but when I remember which one is which I often think of Fortune Teller as the stronger one.  Everyone thinks Oracle is a lot better?  Because of the filtering option?

Oracle is a pretty good terminal draw card in my opinion.  The attack is a bonus.  It's not the best terminal draw, but the low cost is good in Kingdoms where the village is expensive (Bandit Camp, BV, etc)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: silverspawn on March 11, 2014, 04:07:52 pm
I know that oracle has some fans, but oasis? come on...

Oasis is no star, but it's a solid card and a fine addition to most decks. :)

and what about all those times when workshop dominates a board? can your oasis do that?  :P
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 11, 2014, 04:13:16 pm
If Oasis is on the board, I rarely play the game without a single Oasis in my deck. Early, it's pretty nice because you can discard the Estates, and later, it's not a stop card. I have it at 21 and now I think that's a little too low (should have been higher than Storeroom).

Oracle is sometimes ignorable, but usually pretty good. Its sometimes possible to build an engine with Oracle as the main draw, and that's very impressive for a $3 card. It also goes pretty well as a secondary draw in an engine, and it's also usable as a Big Money terminal if the board sucks. I have it at 13.

In the bottom 11, I had Tunnel, Black Market and Lookout instead of Smugglers, Sage and Wishing Well.

and what about all those times when workshop dominates a board? can your oasis do that?  :P
What about all those times when Scout gives +1 action? Can your Workshop do that?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 11, 2014, 04:18:12 pm
This list is fine. Fortune Teller should be higher, though. Higher than Loan. Fortune Teller hurts.

I thought Fortune Teller is only second most underrated card here... behind Loan. I guess I have a hard time believing that Loan isn't good. There are enough better trashers that it's not worth it often enough? I would think there's also enough better attacks that Fortune Teller isn't worth it even more often.

Huh, I always kind of confuse Oracle and Fortune Teller, but when I remember which one is which I often think of Fortune Teller as the stronger one.  Everyone thinks Oracle is a lot better?  Because of the filtering option?

Oracle is better because the draw is more useful that +$2 in most relevant situations.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Witherweaver on March 11, 2014, 04:22:18 pm
This list is fine. Fortune Teller should be higher, though. Higher than Loan. Fortune Teller hurts.

I thought Fortune Teller is only second most underrated card here... behind Loan. I guess I have a hard time believing that Loan isn't good. There are enough better trashers that it's not worth it often enough? I would think there's also enough better attacks that Fortune Teller isn't worth it even more often.

Huh, I always kind of confuse Oracle and Fortune Teller, but when I remember which one is which I often think of Fortune Teller as the stronger one.  Everyone thinks Oracle is a lot better?  Because of the filtering option?

Oracle is better because the draw is more useful that +$2 in most relevant situations.

Maybe I'm focusing more on the attacks than on the benefits.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: eHalcyon on March 11, 2014, 04:25:29 pm
I know that oracle has some fans, but oasis? come on...

Oasis is no star, but it's a solid card and a fine addition to most decks. :)

and what about all those times when workshop dominates a board? can your oasis do that?  :P

As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.  This is the classic subjective valuation thing.  Do you rate a card higher for being strong rarely even though it's weak the majority of the time, or do you rate it higher for being solid every time even if it's never a standout power card?  You have to think about both, and everybody will weigh those scales differently.  Personally, I just find Workshop to be weak too often, and even when it's good it isn't stellar.  Oasis may never dominate but it is almost always useful. 
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 11, 2014, 05:43:44 pm
I know that oracle has some fans, but oasis? come on...

Oasis is no star, but it's a solid card and a fine addition to most decks. :)

and what about all those times when workshop dominates a board? can your oasis do that?  :P

As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.  This is the classic subjective valuation thing.  Do you rate a card higher for being strong rarely even though it's weak the majority of the time, or do you rate it higher for being solid every time even if it's never a standout power card?  You have to think about both, and everybody will weigh those scales differently.  Personally, I just find Workshop to be weak too often, and even when it's good it isn't stellar.  Oasis may never dominate but it is almost always useful.

"Almost always" seems like a bit of a stretch to me. It's probably not that much more often than Workshop.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Asper on March 11, 2014, 07:50:12 pm
I know that oracle has some fans, but oasis? come on...

Oasis is no star, but it's a solid card and a fine addition to most decks. :)

and what about all those times when workshop dominates a board? can your oasis do that?  :P

As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.  This is the classic subjective valuation thing.  Do you rate a card higher for being strong rarely even though it's weak the majority of the time, or do you rate it higher for being solid every time even if it's never a standout power card?  You have to think about both, and everybody will weigh those scales differently.  Personally, I just find Workshop to be weak too often, and even when it's good it isn't stellar.  Oasis may never dominate but it is almost always useful.

"Almost always" seems like a bit of a stretch to me. It's probably not that much more often than Workshop.

At least you can gain Oases with Workshop. Ha! Can your Oasis do that?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: scott_pilgrim on March 11, 2014, 07:53:03 pm
My thoughts on the list so far:

1. I would at least flip Woodcutter and Great Hall, and maybe put Woodcutter above Develop and Great Hall below Chancellor.  Woodcutter is a "terrible" card, but sometimes it's the only +buy on the board, and when it is, it can be a complete game changer.  It's sometimes the last piece that turns a kingdom from BM into engine (or at least from a BM-hybrid type deck into an engine deck).  Great Hall, on the other hand, very rarely has much impact on the game.  Sure, it rarely hurts your deck, but the benefit is also very small.  It's not even that great with the iron cards.  It can build up a small lead, but that's usually not worth the trouble unless you want the Ironworks anyway; and in that case, you want IW to pick up whatever other $4 cards you wanted, not GH's.  And actually spending $3 and a buy for one point and a chance to hit it with Ironmonger is a lot of trouble to go to for not much benefit.  Develop I still don't really understand, so it's possible I'm underrating it, but it seems very situational; even on the boards with good cards at each price you want to pick up and top-deck, it's a terminal one-card trasher, which means you're giving up most of this turn's hand.

2. Fortune Teller is underrated.  I think this is generally because it's hard to actually see the effect of the attack.  According to Geronimoo's simulator, Fortune Teller-BM only loses to Militia-BM by 42/52/6, and Militia is considered a great $4.  Of course, BM is not a good comparison, since attacks generally encourage engines, and other cards may offer better responses to FT than they do to Militia (on average).  Still, it gives a good sense of how much the attack hurts.  I had Fortune Teller at #24; it's not great, but it's not as bad as people seem to think it is.

3. Sage is overrated.  It can be good at the beginning of the game, but it becomes worse and worse as the game progresses (maybe it gets slightly better early on, but in the long run it gets worse).  It shouldn't be above Trade Route, Loan, or Smugglers.

4. Loan is underrated.  It's a pretty decent non-terminal trasher, and it can't be drawn dead either.  The existence of Forager makes it look pretty bad I guess, but Forager is outstanding.  Loan is not a great $3, but it's decent.  I had it at #21.

5. Masterpiece is overrated.  I don't know where it is yet, but we should have seen it by now.  I had it at #27, which is maybe low, but it's a very dedicated Silver flooder, which means if you go for it at all, you're probably not going to be seeing your other kingdom cards very much.  Most of the kingdom cards are "better" than Silver, though that's not quite fair because you would usually rather be flooded with Silver than with X for a random kingdom card X (i.e. kingdom cards generally prefer to connect with other kingdom cards, whereas Silver is just money that can come up anywhere in your deck).  Still, it's not often that the other 9 kingdom cards don't provide you with something better to do than flood your deck with Silver.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: 7string on March 11, 2014, 08:58:17 pm
Really interesting dialog on these $3 cards!  Can't wait to see how it goes with the next couple lists.  This time I only had a single card with the exact same ranking (Wishing Well at #24).  All my others were different, and I had 2 cards in the bottom 11 which didn't show up on this list...

I do think Woodcutter deserves a little better than #33.  As someone said - it is a buy.  To me, the hardest thing to find is an extra buy, and there are so many games without it.  Woodcutter certainly is not strong, and of course I would rather have a Forager or better card, but if there are no other buys in the game Woodcutter at $3 often helps.  Especially if you have to catch up near the end of the game and need extra buys in an engine.

I agree with most of the comments on Sage, but I do think it can sometimes be very strong early in the game...especially to find key attack cards like any of the witches or cursers.  To me, early in the game, Sage can zero in on those essential cards like a Hunting Party.  Obviously not great as the game progresses and greening starts, but fast deck cycling early in the game, and ability to increase the frequency of playing cursers seems to me to warrant a little more respect.  I had it at #22...

And all your comments will have me taking a 2nd look at Develop and Masterpiece...neither of which I often buy.  I also had Lookout in this bottom group.  I'm probably underrating it, but I can't seem to get beyond the memory of having too many times when 3 good cards are on the top of my deck and I had to decide whether to trash (for example) a Gold, a Province, or a Grand Market ; )

Keep up the good comments...to me the dialog is the important learning part of this process, and often more important than the actual new rankings themselves.

Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: shark_bait on March 11, 2014, 10:26:36 pm
5. Masterpiece is overrated.  I don't know where it is yet, but we should have seen it by now.  I had it at #27, which is maybe low, but it's a very dedicated Silver flooder, which means if you go for it at all, you're probably not going to be seeing your other kingdom cards very much.  Most of the kingdom cards are "better" than Silver, though that's not quite fair because you would usually rather be flooded with Silver than with X for a random kingdom card X (i.e. kingdom cards generally prefer to connect with other kingdom cards, whereas Silver is just money that can come up anywhere in your deck).  Still, it's not often that the other 9 kingdom cards don't provide you with something better to do than flood your deck with Silver.

The thing is, this list isn't "The Best Cards for Dominion Engines".  Masterpiece is a BM enabler.  Yeah, you won't often see your other cards in a Masterpiece deck.  But in the absence of discard attacks you don't need to as it's very easy to get to $8 with boatloads of Silver and a few Copper.

I will agree that there are often Kingdoms that I play with Masterpiece where I say, "Man, I wish I could go Masterpiece but it's just not viable."  However on the flip side Masterpiece is an extremely reliable BM deck to play that greens exceptionally well.  It's also relevant in Slog type games wherein you are not looking to recover to engine but instead looking for a more money based recovery. 

So yeah, in terms of engine use, this card is terrible.  But the degree to which it improves BM warrants a good ranking above many of the $3-cost cards.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Robz888 on March 11, 2014, 10:56:37 pm
This list is fine. Fortune Teller should be higher, though. Higher than Loan. Fortune Teller hurts.

I thought Fortune Teller is only second most underrated card here... behind Loan. I guess I have a hard time believing that Loan isn't good. There are enough better trashers that it's not worth it often enough? I would think there's also enough better attacks that Fortune Teller isn't worth it even more often.

Trashing is underrated and hugely important... but Loan is bad. There's almost always a better way to trash.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: scott_pilgrim on March 12, 2014, 12:49:05 am
5. Masterpiece is overrated.  I don't know where it is yet, but we should have seen it by now.  I had it at #27, which is maybe low, but it's a very dedicated Silver flooder, which means if you go for it at all, you're probably not going to be seeing your other kingdom cards very much.  Most of the kingdom cards are "better" than Silver, though that's not quite fair because you would usually rather be flooded with Silver than with X for a random kingdom card X (i.e. kingdom cards generally prefer to connect with other kingdom cards, whereas Silver is just money that can come up anywhere in your deck).  Still, it's not often that the other 9 kingdom cards don't provide you with something better to do than flood your deck with Silver.

The thing is, this list isn't "The Best Cards for Dominion Engines".  Masterpiece is a BM enabler.  Yeah, you won't often see your other cards in a Masterpiece deck.  But in the absence of discard attacks you don't need to as it's very easy to get to $8 with boatloads of Silver and a few Copper.

I will agree that there are often Kingdoms that I play with Masterpiece where I say, "Man, I wish I could go Masterpiece but it's just not viable."  However on the flip side Masterpiece is an extremely reliable BM deck to play that greens exceptionally well.  It's also relevant in Slog type games wherein you are not looking to recover to engine but instead looking for a more money based recovery. 

So yeah, in terms of engine use, this card is terrible.  But the degree to which it improves BM warrants a good ranking above many of the $3-cost cards.

Yeah, I agree with this, but that last sentence I said, that the other 9 kingdom cards usually offer something better to do than Masterpiece-BM, is where we disagree I guess.  I think having it at #23 or better is an overestimate of how often "good" BM is the winning strategy.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Donald X. on March 12, 2014, 01:13:44 am
As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.
How do you like it on this board: Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: eHalcyon on March 12, 2014, 03:16:59 am
As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.
How do you like it on this board: Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop.

I like it on that board. :P
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: markusin on March 12, 2014, 09:04:13 am
As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.
How do you like it on this board: Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop.

I like it on that board. :P
Particularly in 2-player.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: AHoppy on March 12, 2014, 09:12:28 am
I just played an IRL game that featured workshop, Ironmonger, Tunnel, Native village, Noble Brigand, Journeyman, Rogue, fortune teller, and 2 other cards I'm forgetting.  It was 3P, so we all ended up with 2 workshops, I got 6 tunnels and most of the ironmongers off workshops, then since there were only 4 workshops, piled those for the win.  Sure, it wouldn't have been as short as 2P, but workshop would still be dominant here
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: silverspawn on March 12, 2014, 09:12:38 am
As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.
How do you like it on this board: Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop.

I like it on that board. :P
Particularly in 2-player.

i recently played on this board when we had a couple of relatives here for visit. i opened double workshop, they collided on turn 5. great card.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: markusin on March 12, 2014, 09:18:02 am
As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.
How do you like it on this board: Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop.

I like it on that board. :P
Particularly in 2-player.

i recently played on this board when we had a couple of relatives here for visit. i opened double workshop, they collided on turn 5. great card.
It could have happened with Ambassador or Swindler too and you'd have to come to the same conclusion. Any of your openings finding themselves on turn 5 makes the card suck, including Chapel.

I've played this board a bunch with the bots, and I've found Remodel/Workshop to be an effective opening I think. What are people's thoughts here? Or should I just check the winning bot of the simulation challenge?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: shark_bait on March 12, 2014, 09:36:24 am
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140312/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1394628603603.txt

Masterpiece overcomes 7/3 Curse split from Sea Hag with help from Baker and Merchant Guild tokens.  Opponent opts for Gold/Bank over Masterpiece.  Masterpiece wins.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140301/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1393691774544.txt

BM/Smith/Masterpiece eats up 4 Provinces and 5 Duchies in 16 turns.  Opponent went for a Spice Merchant/Steward/Market Square trash to mass Gold strategy.  Masterpiece wins as opponents deck stalls on the last few green cards.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140220/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1392936190334.txt

BM/Smithy/Masterpiece loses vs. a draw engine with Silver as payload.  I'm convinced Masterpiece was the right move here.  Masterpiece has 3 Provinces after 11 turns with a total of 16 Silver and 2 Smithies in deck.  Turn 12 nets $4.  Turn 13 nets $6.  Turn 14 nets $4.  Turn 15 nets $5.  Turn 15 nets $5.  Turn 17 finally has enough for Province and game is lost by 1 point due to 1st player advantage.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140214/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1392421581526.txt

Mirror match of BM/Wharf/Masterpiece.  Masterpiece wins.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131216/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1387257340226.txt

Masterpiece helps overcome a 7/3 Curse loss.  First Masterpiece should have been Gold in order to play Witch more and not lose the split as bad.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131212/log.505f216aa2e6714a97eee440.1386888935911.txt

Trader/Masterpiece/CR.  I lose as I follow PPR although Masterpiece was still the key card in both of our decks.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131208/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1386528094203.txt

Masterpiece bane overcomes Young Witch cursing.

Alright, so that is my entire history of Goko games with Masterpiece wherein Masterpiece was used.  I played a total of 21 games which included Masterpiece.  So of my 21 games 7 utilized Masterpiece as a key component.  Of these 7 games 2 were mirror matches and the other 5 were not.  Only 1 of the non mirror matches was lost and I'm partially convinced a slew of poor draws combined with 1st player advantage caused that loss.  So in my games I utilized Masterpiece 33% of the time.  In games where opponents ignored Masterpiece win percentage is 80% (4/5) and total win percentage is 71%.  My win percentage for all games is 60%.  I guess 7 games is a rather low sample set but it's not like I'm losing when I utilized Masterpiece.  Only using it 33% of the time may be low when you think of other cards that are picked up around 100% of the time that they are in the Kingdom like Masquerade, Fishing Village, etc.  But I think the real power is shown that Masterpiece is able to win despite losing curse splits against opponents who ignore Masterpiece.

Masterpiece certainly doesn't deserve a spot among the top 10.  In making this list I've thought a bit about my ranking of the card and I certainly believe it is a very good $3-cost card.  It is unique in the $3 cost cards in that it is the only treasure and that apart from Masquerade it is really the only card that is really good for BM (although Masquerade is also phenomenal in engines).  That makes it really hard to rate against the other cards.  This is making me want to have compartmentalized lists for things like Engine, BM and Slog.  That could allow more niche cards to be rated solely in an area where they shine more rather than have these lists where people may be putting emphasis more on a particular deck archetype.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: michaeljb on March 12, 2014, 06:03:00 pm
As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.
How do you like it on this board: Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop.

I like it on that board. :P
Particularly in 2-player.

i recently played on this board when we had a couple of relatives here for visit. i opened double workshop, they collided on turn 5. great card.
It could have happened with Ambassador or Swindler too and you'd have to come to the same conclusion. Any of your openings finding themselves on turn 5 makes the card suck, including Chapel.

I've played this board a bunch with the bots, and I've found Remodel/Workshop to be an effective opening I think. What are people's thoughts here? Or should I just check the winning bot of the simulation challenge?

Remodel/Workshop is pretty solid.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: ftl on March 12, 2014, 10:41:20 pm
As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.
How do you like it on this board: Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop.

I like it on that board. :P
Particularly in 2-player.

i recently played on this board when we had a couple of relatives here for visit. i opened double workshop, they collided on turn 5. great card.
It could have happened with Ambassador or Swindler too and you'd have to come to the same conclusion. Any of your openings finding themselves on turn 5 makes the card suck, including Chapel.

I've played this board a bunch with the bots, and I've found Remodel/Workshop to be an effective opening I think. What are people's thoughts here? Or should I just check the winning bot of the simulation challenge?

Remodel/Workshop is pretty solid.

http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/07/30/building-the-first-game-engine/ for those who don't get the reference.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Psyduck on March 13, 2014, 09:32:36 am
I must certainly agree to what shark_bait said about Masterpiece. It *is* a strong card under certain conditions. These conditions are a) BM, b) slogs with junking and c) Feodum. True, sometimes there are faster options on the board, But sometimes Masterpiece is a really good choice, so it should not be in the bottom $3 cards. Personally, I had it on #14 I think, which might me a little too high actually.

One card I'm missing in the list so far is Doctor. This cards feels awful! Okay, it's a trasher, and trashing is good as we know. But you need to be lucky (and/or track you deck) for Doctor to be really effective. Often you just name the wrong cards and Doctor just wasts your action. It's a big deal that it's terminal. A non-terminal doctor would be a lot stronger. The on-play effect is really weak in my opinion and mostly helps to get rid of some coppers in the early game.
The on-buy effect is much better, but you need to have some money to do it effectively. In games with strong junking, where trashing the junk would help a lot, you don't have much money in your hands because of the junk. And then you get the on-buy effect only once and afterwards have one more junk card in you deck.
I feel that more often than not Doctor is just not worth the effort to buy and play it.

Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: silverspawn on March 13, 2014, 10:04:03 am
nope, doctor is strong. just get him early enough.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 13, 2014, 10:14:26 am
One card I'm missing in the list so far is Doctor. This cards feels awful! Okay, it's a trasher, and trashing is good as we know. But you need to be lucky (and/or track you deck) for Doctor to be really effective. Often you just name the wrong cards and Doctor just wasts your action.
Why wouldn't you track your deck?

Doctor shines in engine games without junking, it's almost as fast as Chapel as long as you can clear out most of the starting 10 before you have a deck full of cards that you don't want to trash. It's also nice that it can trigger a reshuffle without having to trash anything in the late game, though it's also a part of the reason why you want to trigger the reshuffle so...  ::)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Witherweaver on March 13, 2014, 10:17:32 am
nope, doctor is strong. just get him early enough.

Doctor, doctor, gimme the news
I got a bad case of lovin' you
No pill's gonna cure my ill
I got a bad case of lovin' you
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: jsh357 on March 13, 2014, 10:24:12 am
I also think doctor is pretty bad, but the times it comes through are more valuable than the benefits of the worst 3 cost cards.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on March 13, 2014, 01:19:42 pm
The only thing I have against Doctor is that we don't have equal starting hands. A player opening 5/2 w/Doctor has a huge advantage. Even a player opening 4/3 against a 3/4 opening has a huge advantage with Doctor. A good early Doctor opening really unbalances the game if the opposing player doesn't get the same opening opportunity. So, in other words, I think Doctor is strong, but also swingy because we don't have the option of starting with the same starting hands.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Psyduck on March 13, 2014, 02:57:21 pm
One card I'm missing in the list so far is Doctor. This cards feels awful! Okay, it's a trasher, and trashing is good as we know. But you need to be lucky (and/or track you deck) for Doctor to be really effective. Often you just name the wrong cards and Doctor just wasts your action.
Why wouldn't you track your deck?

Doctor shines in engine games without junking, it's almost as fast as Chapel as long as you can clear out most of the starting 10 before you have a deck full of cards that you don't want to trash. It's also nice that it can trigger a reshuffle without having to trash anything in the late game, though it's also a part of the reason why you want to trigger the reshuffle so...  ::)

Because I can't. Of course I can during the second shuffle and the third shuffle usually works quite well, too. But from then on I can't remember all cards I've seen during that shuffle, which didn't miss it, along with reconsidering and following a strategy, making tatctical decisions, adapting to opponent and draws etc.
You might argue that this is a problem of my play rather than of the card, but I'm no memory artist and dominion is just a hobby. I feel that the vast majority of players can't track their deck completely.

You compare Doctor with Chapel? Really?? ??? Chapel is so much stronger. I don't think I would ever buy Doctor over Chapel in any game.
I've never thought about Doctor's reshuffle-triggering ability in this context, though. :D
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Holger on March 13, 2014, 03:08:13 pm
You compare Doctor with Chapel? Really?? ??? Chapel is so much stronger. I don't think I would ever buy Doctor over Chapel in any game.

With a 5/2 opening, a $5 Doctor usually trashes faster than Chapel - 2 cards on turn 1, and usually another 2 cards on turn 2 or 3 when you first draw it, and so on (except for the last few remaining starting cards). With this opening, I think I'd prefer it over Chapel as an opening buy e.g. in a Fool's Gold game. Of course Doctor is much weaker with a 4/3 or even 3/4 opening (and in Shelter games).
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: eHalcyon on March 13, 2014, 04:00:11 pm
You compare Doctor with Chapel? Really?? ??? Chapel is so much stronger. I don't think I would ever buy Doctor over Chapel in any game.

With a 5/2 opening, a $5 Doctor usually trashes faster than Chapel - 2 cards on turn 1, and usually another 2 cards on turn 2 or 3 when you first draw it, and so on (except for the last few remaining starting cards). With this opening, I think I'd prefer it over Chapel as an opening buy e.g. in a Fool's Gold game. Of course Doctor is much weaker with a 4/3 or even 3/4 opening (and in Shelter games).

But if you open $5 Doctor, you may be giving up the $5 power card that you would get alongside Chapel (especially if you get the $5 on turn 2).  It might be worthwhile sometimes, but it's certainly not cut-and-dried.  I would expect the Chapel opening to be better most of the time, depending on what other $2s and $5s were on the board.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 13, 2014, 04:16:47 pm
Obviously Chapel is much better, but Doctor can be as fast (while being worse in other ways).
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: silverspawn on March 13, 2014, 04:49:50 pm
$5 doctor is better than any chapel opening i think
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: eHalcyon on March 13, 2014, 05:26:29 pm
$5 doctor is better than any chapel opening i think

I would not give up opening Wharf or Witch/Mountebank/Cultist just to get Doctor, just to name a few.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: markusin on March 13, 2014, 06:10:58 pm
$5 doctor is better than any chapel opening i think

I would not give up opening Wharf or Witch/Mountebank/Cultist just to get Doctor, just to name a few.
Even better if you can pick those cards up with a Chapel.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on March 13, 2014, 06:16:42 pm
You compare Doctor with Chapel? Really?? ??? Chapel is so much stronger. I don't think I would ever buy Doctor over Chapel in any game.

With a 5/2 opening, a $5 Doctor usually trashes faster than Chapel - 2 cards on turn 1, and usually another 2 cards on turn 2 or 3 when you first draw it, and so on (except for the last few remaining starting cards). With this opening, I think I'd prefer it over Chapel as an opening buy e.g. in a Fool's Gold game. Of course Doctor is much weaker with a 4/3 or even 3/4 opening (and in Shelter games).

But if you open $5 Doctor, you may be giving up the $5 power card that you would get alongside Chapel (especially if you get the $5 on turn 2).  It might be worthwhile sometimes, but it's certainly not cut-and-dried.  I would expect the Chapel opening to be better most of the time, depending on what other $2s and $5s were on the board.

I always open 5/2 if Doctor is on the board and we have a Witch or Mountebank or any sort of engine. You are not giving up the power card by getting Doctor first. Instead you are very effectively clearing your deck so that when you do get the power $5, you can play it more often and more effectively.

The only exception to that is if Chapel is also on the board, I would likely take Chapel and the power $5, but in my experience a 5/2 Doctor is faster at trashing than Chapel.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: hsiale on March 13, 2014, 06:24:42 pm
I always open 5/2 if Doctor is on the board
I'd like to know how you do this, seems useful.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: silverspawn on March 13, 2014, 07:48:29 pm
$5 doctor is better than any chapel opening i think

I would not give up opening Wharf or Witch/Mountebank/Cultist just to get Doctor, just to name a few.

i would. i really think $5 doctor opening is as good as it gets. you trash 2 cards immediately, your deck is then so small that you are likely to hit at least 2 cards with doctor, often 3, without giving up on your current turn.

i once opened doctor for $6 and hit all three estates
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Twistedarcher on March 13, 2014, 10:25:41 pm
My main differences:

I had Woodcutter and Trade Route, both with +buy, much higher than average. They're often extremely relevant just by virtue of being the only +buy in the game.

I had Loan and Doctor, both trashers, lower than average. Loan's never spectacular -- if it's the only trasher, I may get it, but it's about last in terms of trashing. I also find I rarely buy doctor unless I open 5/2.

I guess I seriously seriously underrate Storeroom -- I had it in this section, although I haven't played with it much.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: eHalcyon on March 14, 2014, 05:59:07 pm
I always open 5/2 if Doctor is on the board and we have a Witch or Mountebank or any sort of engine. You are not giving up the power card by getting Doctor first. Instead you are very effectively clearing your deck so that when you do get the power $5, you can play it more often and more effectively.

The only exception to that is if Chapel is also on the board, I would likely take Chapel and the power $5, but in my experience a 5/2 Doctor is faster at trashing than Chapel.

I was talking about the situation with Chapel on the board. :)

$5 doctor is better than any chapel opening i think

I would not give up opening Wharf or Witch/Mountebank/Cultist just to get Doctor, just to name a few.

i would. i really think $5 doctor opening is as good as it gets. you trash 2 cards immediately, your deck is then so small that you are likely to hit at least 2 cards with doctor, often 3, without giving up on your current turn.

i once opened doctor for $6 and hit all three estates

You trash 2 cards immediately, then your deck still has 9 cards in it.  There's no guarantee that you'll hit your Estates either, and if you don't then it could take a few turns to hit $5.  It gets even worse if you then draw your Doctor with your remaining Estates, killing your current turn and discouraging you from even playing Doctor, because you don't want to completely destroy your economy.  In the meantime, any Curses from the opponent will be a significant portion of your think deck, making it even harder to hit $5.  Don't get me wrong, I'm sure $5 Doctor opening can be very good, but I seriously doubt that it is as good as it gets.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: luser on March 14, 2014, 10:41:29 pm
I always open 5/2 if Doctor is on the board and we have a Witch or Mountebank or any sort of engine. You are not giving up the power card by getting Doctor first. Instead you are very effectively clearing your deck so that when you do get the power $5, you can play it more often and more effectively.

The only exception to that is if Chapel is also on the board, I would likely take Chapel and the power $5, but in my experience a 5/2 Doctor is faster at trashing than Chapel.

I was talking about the situation with Chapel on the board. :)

$5 doctor is better than any chapel opening i think

I would not give up opening Wharf or Witch/Mountebank/Cultist just to get Doctor, just to name a few.

i would. i really think $5 doctor opening is as good as it gets. you trash 2 cards immediately, your deck is then so small that you are likely to hit at least 2 cards with doctor, often 3, without giving up on your current turn.

i once opened doctor for $6 and hit all three estates

You trash 2 cards immediately, then your deck still has 9 cards in it.  There's no guarantee that you'll hit your Estates either,

The probability of hitting 2 coppers and not three estates is 1/10. That is pretty good given that with probability 1/6 chapel misses shuffle and you first use it in turn 5.

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and if you don't then it could take a few turns to hit $5.  It gets even worse if you then draw your Doctor with your remaining Estates, killing your current turn and discouraging you from even playing Doctor, because you don't want to completely destroy your economy.
That is a 1/40 probability event which is simply a bad luck.

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In the meantime, any Curses from the opponent will be a significant portion of your think deck, making it even harder to hit $5.  Don't get me wrong, I'm sure $5 Doctor opening can be very good, but I seriously doubt that it is as good as it gets.

With junker you need chapel anyway as doctor is weak when it needs to deal with curses estates and copper so by opening chapel you saved one buy.

Also a wharf/governor/tactician considerably strengthen chapel as with 7+ card hand you could trash and do something useful.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: brokoli on March 15, 2014, 10:40:52 am
I think my new worst $3 card is Trade route. It's a bad opening card because in the opening there is almost always something better than a poor soft trasher. Trade route at the begining of the game really slow down. Even as the only source of +buy, you don't want it too early and later in the game it's usually too late because you are already greening. Overall, Trade route is a card I'll take at the end of the game when I have nothing else to buy, and I play it a single time in the whole game.

It's not a terrible card, I already had games where Trade route helped me a lot for a three pile ending or to take the last province, but I think the benefit of a card like chancellor, during the whole game, is more valuable than a trade route that is only really useful at the end of the game.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Polk5440 on March 16, 2014, 12:37:24 pm
Masterpiece certainly doesn't deserve a spot among the top 10.  In making this list I've thought a bit about my ranking of the card and I certainly believe it is a very good $3-cost card.  It is unique in the $3 cost cards in that it is the only treasure and that apart from Masquerade it is really the only card that is really good for BM (although Masquerade is also phenomenal in engines).  That makes it really hard to rate against the other cards.  This is making me want to have compartmentalized lists for things like Engine, BM and Slog.  That could allow more niche cards to be rated solely in an area where they shine more rather than have these lists where people may be putting emphasis more on a particular deck archetype.

I think Masterpiece deserves to be in the top 10 of the $3 cost cards. I put it at #8.

A game I played last night reminded me of shark_bait's post. My record is quite good with this card -- I kind of hope everyone else keeps under-rating it! Of my last 20 online games where Masterpiece appeared, it was purchased in 12 games; I purchase it in 10 of the games. I won 7 of those 10. Of the three I lost, one was very close and one was a 3 player mirror match and one was a two-player mirror match. Of the two in which I didn't purchase it, one time was correct (and I won without it), and the other time was questionable (but I won). In reverse-chronological order:

1. Polk5440 def. No Pawns Intended and Bella Cullen. (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140315/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1394939213681.txt) I buy only Silvers, Masterpiece, and green against two Rebuilders and win convincingly.
2.  Polk5440 def. vogue (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140307/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1394250990634.txt). Colony, Menagerie game. Vogue buys Masterpiece (a mistake) and loses.
3.  Polk5440 def. Wandering Winder (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140303/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1393899228645.txt). Soothsayer/Masterpiece mirror match.
4.  Polk5440 def. TheMirrorMan. (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140202/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1391392012084.txt). Masterpiece-Feodum-Monument almost-mirror where the only difference was my Explorer to his Hunting Grounds, Trading Post, and Talisman. I win the Silver split. :P
5.  Polk5440 def. Kirian. (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140129/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1391050828476.txt) Masterpiece-Scavenger vs. Knights and Graverobber. Colony game. Masterpiece rushing Provinces wins convincingly.
6. No Pawns Intended def. Bella Cullen and Polk5440. (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140125/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1390696785508.txt) Masquerade, Masterpiece, and Hoard mirror.
7.  lightbulb def. Polk5440 (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140122/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1390446243401.txt). Chapel, Lighthouse, Stonemason, Masquerade, Masterpiece, Swindler, Gardens, Remodel, Salvager, Worker's Village, Young Witch. A pretty interesting game where Masterpiece was the bane; I lose by one point. I am not sure how my turn 8 and 9 Masterpiece buys rate.
8.  Polk5440 def. frankdom. (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140116/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1389921885890.txt) Essentially Masterpiece-Jack of All Trades for me versus  Knights. Masterpiece-Jack wins convincingly.
9.  Polk5440 def. No Pawns Intended and Bella Cullen. (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140112/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1389558683539.txt) They rely on Masterpiece to get a few silvers into Grand Markets. I go crazy with Sage-Border Village-Couting House-Coppersmith. I win, but only because No Pawns Intended played kingmaker at the end. But it was very close.
10.  Polk5440 def. Perry Green (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140109/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1389323371794.txt). Crossroads, Masterpiece, Smugglers, Warehouse, Baron, Gardens, Ironmonger, Mine, Royal Seal, Saboteur. Often, I go with Masterpiece buys on $4; he avoids them. I win.
11.  Polk5440 def. Perry Green. (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140109/log.513bdc80e4b0da6e3de056bb.1389322446374.txt). Here I buy Masterpiece on $4 to beef up Fairgrounds midgame. Not that important. But it was an interesting Rebuild game!
12.  Erazure def. Polk5440.  (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140106/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1389064690606.txt) Masquerade-Masterpiece mirror match.

In summary, Masterpiece is good when you want lots of silvers or lots of cards. It's a great defense against Knights, great with Feodum, great as a quick infusion of cash.

Edited counts.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: MarkowKette on March 17, 2014, 10:36:21 am
I have to say i do mainly agree with the list so far. Yeah maybe theese and those 2 cards on places X and X+1 should swap places but that is minor.
So far i read "card Y should be a lot higher, how is it in the bottom 10?" followed by a reason why this card is actually good. But most of the time that person doesn't name a card which should be placed in the bottom 10 instead.
The thing with $3 cards is, there just arn't any real bad ones. There is a reason why on almoast every board you are really happy when your $3 card gets swindled.(yes i know $2 and $5 cards can bbe swapped with green cards and coppers with curses so for those numbers there is always a really bad replacement, but if you just compare this effect to swindled $4 cards you will see what i mean)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Qvist on March 17, 2014, 01:18:31 pm
Part 2 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10623.msg352972#msg352972)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Tables on March 17, 2014, 01:24:14 pm
Lookout is 2.9pp higher than Masterpiece... I mean I guess you could say that's a jump of nearly 4pp, but I think you probably meant 3pp there?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: eHalcyon on March 17, 2014, 04:01:27 pm
The probability of hitting 2 coppers and not three estates is 1/10. That is pretty good given that with probability 1/6 chapel misses shuffle and you first use it in turn 5.

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and if you don't then it could take a few turns to hit $5.  It gets even worse if you then draw your Doctor with your remaining Estates, killing your current turn and discouraging you from even playing Doctor, because you don't want to completely destroy your economy.
That is a 1/40 probability event which is simply a bad luck.

Might be a 1/10 chance for hitting two copper, but there's also the chance of hitting one copper which also isn't that great.  You have 24% chance of hitting two Estates.  But hey, this is assuming you open 5/2.  What if you open 2/5?  You'll be an additional turn behind if you skip the $2 hand, or you'll drop the percentages for a good Doctor overpay if you buy something.

Again, Doctor is a good opening.  I am not arguing against that.  But silerspawn said that $5 Doctor is the BEST opening, better than any Chapel opening and "as good as it gets".  I am saying that it isn't at all clear that Doctor is the very best, and that there are certainly boards where Chapel would be the better choice.

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In the meantime, any Curses from the opponent will be a significant portion of your think deck, making it even harder to hit $5.  Don't get me wrong, I'm sure $5 Doctor opening can be very good, but I seriously doubt that it is as good as it gets.

With junker you need chapel anyway as doctor is weak when it needs to deal with curses estates and copper so by opening chapel you saved one buy.

Also a wharf/governor/tactician considerably strengthen chapel as with 7+ card hand you could trash and do something useful.

So you agree that Chapel with a strong junker or Wharf (or Governor, which I didn't call out myself) would beat out a $5 Doctor opening?  If so, I don't think we are in disagreement.  I'm not saying that Doctor is weak.  I'm just saying that it isn't the best $5 opening ever when there is Chapel and a strong power $5 on the board to consider.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: silverspawn on March 17, 2014, 10:13:17 pm
Might be a 1/10 chance for hitting two copper, but there's also the chance of hitting one copper which also isn't that great.  You have 24% chance of hitting two Estates.  But hey, this is assuming you open 5/2.  What if you open 2/5?  You'll be an additional turn behind if you skip the $2 hand, or you'll drop the percentages for a good Doctor overpay if you buy something.
I would rarely open doctor with 2/5, and certainly not if there's chapel. 5/2 doctor is extremely strong, but man, one turn difference is huge.

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Again, Doctor is a good opening.  I am not arguing against that.  But silerspawn said that $5 Doctor is the BEST opening, better than any Chapel opening and "as good as it gets".  I am saying that it isn't at all clear that Doctor is the very best, and that there are certainly boards where Chapel would be the better choice.
Well, it's only the best if you want to trash down quickly. If you go for a garden rush, it's a terrible opening. You can compare it to chapel because you generally want to do the same thing with both. Are there boards where chapel is better? Yea, every shelter board. Trashing shelters with doctor is such a pain. Aside from that though, I don't think it really depends on the board. Maybe the importance of hitting 5$ is a factor, but generally they will behave similar on most boards, since you want to do the same thing with both of them. I just feel like 5$ doctor kills junk faster than chapel and has more buying power, so it's just better no matter what the rest of the board looks like. I'm not certain, even though I've played quite a lot of games with both, it's possible that I was lucky with doctor in most of them. This is actually something simulations could give answers to.

Can't believe this is the second time I'm defending a $3 trasher. Uh, but overall chapel is defintely better. 5$ doctor opening is great, but you only open with 5$ in... *doing maths* 8,3% of all games. Doctor is like trading post, very good early but loses strength really fast.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 18, 2014, 12:22:38 am
I have a few comments about the text:

Shanty Town: It's worth mentioning that the Lab effect works a lot of the time in the early game, allowing you to get a village early without giving up much economy.

Tunnel: You say buying it as an opening can be really good, but I don't think this is really the case. Sure the upside is an early Gold, but I don't know that it ever really makes up for downside of it just being dead. Also, I'm even more sure that it's not a "great defense" against discard attacks. You still have to discard.

Urchin: I think you're underselling the attack. It doesn't hurt much early on when you have a high concentration of Estates. But later on, if your deck isn't drawing a lot, it hurts a lot.

As far as the rankings go, I think Lookout, Shanty Town, and Black Market are underrated, and Tunnel and Market Square are overrated. Gold gain is not that good.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: serakfalcon on March 18, 2014, 01:05:08 am

Shanty Town: It's worth mentioning that the Lab effect works a lot of the time in the early game, allowing you to get a village early without giving up much economy.


in combination with discarding (oasis, embassy, minion), or basically any non-terminal actions shanty towns can be made to act like a lab more often than not. if you have cards that let you rearrange the top of your deck, you can line it up. So it can be very useful in certain conditions.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: brokoli on March 18, 2014, 04:26:31 am
Many disagreements for this part :

- Tunnel is points, and again victory cards are ranked way too low. Tunnel is without a doubt a top 5 card.
- Storeroom is so underrated. It's a key piece for all those engines with little to heavy draw. I think in general cellar and secret chamber are underrated (though I agree SC one of the worst $2), SC can be sometimes a nice source of money (especially powerful when you can draw again what you discarded). Storeroom is just a better secret chamber, the +buy helps a lot and the cellar effect adds flexibility.
- Oracle… one of my favourite opening cards, a very effective cheap drawer, a nice support card, it should be ranked higher than #15.

I would rank all those higher than Village, Urchin, Scheme and Market Square. Especially market square. Market square is just not that good.

I think Warehouse is overrated too. It was a top 10 $3 before Cornucopia, Hinterlands, Dark Ages and Guilds but now I think it's only a good support card, but not more than that. I would definitely rank it lower than Tunnel, Storeroom and Oracle.

About the first part, as always I think Fortune teller is underrated.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Qvist on March 18, 2014, 06:33:43 am
Part 3 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10623.msg352972#msg352972)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: brokoli on March 18, 2014, 07:15:30 am
Forager \o/ I can only agree. Such an awesome trasher.
Masquerade higher than ambassador, that's another victory :D

However Menagerie lower than Steward… and Swindler ? Really ? I don't understand why everybody loves swindler so much.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: SCSN on March 18, 2014, 07:27:54 am
I absolutely detest Swindler and think the game would be much better off without it, but it's still in my top 5; these lists are not popularity contests.

The thing that baffles me most is Black Market at 18. I have it at 4 and think it's more likely that I'm underrating than overrating it.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: dominion123 on March 18, 2014, 08:22:36 am
I'd rate black market much better than that.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 18, 2014, 08:25:20 am
Okay, so you guys can obviously see how I feel by going and comparing with the WW's power rankings thread. But here, the biggest two things to me are smugglers, which is way too low, and scheme, which is way too high. Smugglers is really nice for just about everything but the generally-weak traditional draw-based big-money, and REALLY nice for engine mirrors, and scheme just... doesn't do that much that often.

Black Market... definitely seems too low here, but #4? I really can't see it being that high - the rest of the board is strong enough to not need the extra card that often. You have it better than which of steward, swindler, masquerade, ambassador, hermit, forager....?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: brokoli on March 18, 2014, 08:30:20 am
I absolutely detest Swindler and think the game would be much better off without it, but it's still in my top 5; these lists are not popularity contests.
Of course, "love" is a manner of speaking. I personally like Swindler mechanically, but I often ignore it and still don't feel like I'm making a mistake. A deck with a curse instead of a copper is not the end of the world :P
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 18, 2014, 08:40:42 am
I absolutely detest Swindler and think the game would be much better off without it, but it's still in my top 5; these lists are not popularity contests.
Of course, "love" is a manner of speaking. I personally like Swindler mechanically, but I often ignore it and still don't feel like I'm making a mistake. A deck with a curse instead of a copper is not the end of the world :P
It's still comparable to a deck with a Silver instead of a Gold and giving your opponent a VP token, unless you can trash the Curse. And Swindler is still as good as a Silver if it doesn't collide with another terminal, so you aren't even losing momentum by buying one.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Tables on March 18, 2014, 09:02:23 am
Part 3 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10623.msg352972#msg352972)

That's a link to part 2, not part 3 (not that it really matters) :).

Masquerade and Ambassador being that close on the top two places is interesting. I had a feeling Masq might have taken the lead this time, but I think I agree that they're a tough pair to say one is better than the other. Both are really good.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Polk5440 on March 18, 2014, 09:05:22 am
Masterpiece (I put it 14 ranks higher) and Workshop (15 ranks higher) were my biggest differences by far. I really think these two cards are underutilized.

My biggest differences in the other direction were not as stark: Lookout (I put it 9 places lower -- I really think it's used too much), Oasis (8 lower -- a case where it's bought a lot, but isn't key often. I rank these cards lower than other people, I think), Scheme (more often than people realize you just want another copy of something else), and Black Market (8 places lower -- I torpedoed this because I hate it so much. I don't buy it as often as I should for the same reason. Just be happy I resisted the urge to put it last).
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: serakfalcon on March 18, 2014, 09:22:20 am
Many disagreements for this part :

- Tunnel is points, and again victory cards are ranked way too low. Tunnel is without a doubt a top 5 card.


That's not even remotely possible. All of the current top 5 are incredibly powerful 'game-changers'. When Tunnel has enablers, it is a decent addition that you have to watch carefully, lest it choke up your deck. When it doesn't have enablers, it's a poor man's duchy.

- Storeroom is so underrated. It's a key piece for all those engines with little to heavy draw. I think in general cellar and secret chamber are underrated (though I agree SC one of the worst $2), SC can be sometimes a nice source of money (especially powerful when you can draw again what you discarded). Storeroom is just a better secret chamber, the +buy helps a lot and the cellar effect adds flexibility.

Storeroom is a great card, and I usually get one, but it deserves to be where it is. It is a great compliment to any engine, and can help a little with BM, but it's only as strong as your engine, and almost never defines the game the way the more powerful cards do.

I would rank all those higher than Village, Urchin, Scheme and Market Square. Especially market square. Market square is just not that good.

I can't really understand that thinking. Market square lets you get gold for free by getting rid of cards that you wanted to get rid of anyways, AND is a cantrip +buy, how can that possibly be worse than tunnel?
Also, urchin is mediocre but mercenary is amazing. I definitely ranked urchin with that in mind.

About the first part, as always I think Fortune teller is underrated.

Especially with shelters, fortune teller is a bit of a joke. If you get it early, it doesn't set your opponents back that much, if you use it midgame it won't do anything, and in the end game, there usually are much better terminal actions to play. Lets not even get started about how it can topdeck nobles or harem for your opponent. It would be a better card if it's effect could stack. It's certainly the worst $3 attack, I'm a bit surprised it beat out develop but there you go.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: shark_bait on March 18, 2014, 09:26:08 am
I think Hermit/Madmen and Urchin/Mercenary are both underrated.  Hermit can trash from the discard and gain either Silver or $3-cost engine parts.  Mercenary allows for trashing while still having cash to buy in addition to a tangible attack.  I had them in my list at 8 and 9 and if I could redo it now I might put them a bit higher.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: brokoli on March 18, 2014, 09:41:02 am
That's not even remotely possible. All of the current top 5 are incredibly powerful 'game-changers'. When Tunnel has enablers, it is a decent addition that you have to watch carefully, lest it choke up your deck. When it doesn't have enablers, it's a poor man's duchy.
A poor man's duchy is a good buy. I mean, I rank the cards also based on how often I buy them and at the end of the game, if you have $3 don't buy that "poor man's duchy" you greatly decrese your chances to win the game.

Quote
Storeroom is a great card, and I usually get one, but it deserves to be where it is. It is a great compliment to any engine, and can help a little with BM, but it's only as strong as your engine, and almost never defines the game the way the more powerful cards do.
You could argue the same for Oasis, Market Square or Scheme… I simply think that storeroom does more things for you than scheme, because Storeroom shines in engines with no trashing, where sifting is the way to go, and there it can be a very important source of money, while Scheme or oasis is just a little support. I don't know, I simply see more power in storeroom than all above-cited.

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I would rank all those higher than Village, Urchin, Scheme and Market Square. Especially market square. Market square is just not that good.

I can't really understand that thinking. Market square lets you get gold for free by getting rid of cards that you wanted to get rid of anyways, AND is a cantrip +buy, how can that possibly be worse than tunnel?
Also, urchin is mediocre but mercenary is amazing. I definitely ranked urchin with that in mind.
Market square always cost you one card in hand when you reveal it. That's a pretty big drawback in my opinion. Sure there are amazing things like Hermit+Market Square. But with tunnel you can also build a nice combo deck (Tactician, crossroads, Storeroom…). And again, Tunnel is VP… after all, VP is the only thing that wins you the game.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 18, 2014, 10:42:59 am
That's not even remotely possible. All of the current top 5 are incredibly powerful 'game-changers'. When Tunnel has enablers, it is a decent addition that you have to watch carefully, lest it choke up your deck. When it doesn't have enablers, it's a poor man's duchy.
A poor man's duchy is a good buy. I mean, I rank the cards also based on how often I buy them and at the end of the game, if you have $3 don't buy that "poor man's duchy" you greatly decrese your chances to win the game.
It's hardly any better than Great Hall for that - it's strictly better than Estate, but if you lost the Province split, Tunnel isn't going to save you.

Quote
Market square always cost you one card in hand when you reveal it. That's a pretty big drawback in my opinion. Sure there are amazing things like Hermit+Market Square. But with tunnel you can also build a nice combo deck (Tactician, crossroads, Storeroom…). And again, Tunnel is VP… after all, VP is the only thing that wins you the game.
Tunnel always costs you one card in hand when you reveal it, too. It also costs you one card in hand even when you don't reveal it. That drawback is even bigger. Almost every time, there's a better use for Tactician than enabling Tunnel, Crossroads+Tunnel is more like a nombo than a combo, and Storeroom+Tunnel is pretty good but nowhere near Hermit+Market Square. VP is the only thing that wins you the game, but there are better ways to get VP than buying Tunnels.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: silverspawn on March 18, 2014, 11:03:25 am
well, it's not terrible. smugglers is way too low, hermit is way too low, steward is too high (come at me), masterpiece is too low. and basic village is really low, that thing is so great. overall the top looks pretty good though, except forager > hermit
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: GeoLib on March 18, 2014, 12:34:40 pm
I think village is underrated. Yeah, it's not exciting, but engines are critical and for that you need +actions (usually). Certainly I'd rank it higher than scheme and market square and maybe warehouse.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: KingZog3 on March 18, 2014, 01:09:34 pm
I think village is underrated. Yeah, it's not exciting, but engines are critical and for that you need +actions (usually). Certainly I'd rank it higher than scheme and market square and maybe warehouse.

I very much disagree. Scheme is just amazing for any engine. Warehouse is better in more cases. Market Square in cantrip +buy, with a Gold gaining reaction which comes in handy pretty often. Village is good, sure, but all $4 villages are better and not much more expensive that they will make engines stronger.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on March 18, 2014, 01:27:05 pm
I think village is underrated. Yeah, it's not exciting, but engines are critical and for that you need +actions (usually). Certainly I'd rank it higher than scheme and market square and maybe warehouse.

I very much disagree. Scheme is just amazing for any engine. Warehouse is better in more cases. Market Square in cantrip +buy, with a Gold gaining reaction which comes in handy pretty often. Village is good, sure, but all $4 villages are better and not much more expensive that they will make engines stronger.

There are many boards where Fortress is not better than Village.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: jaybeez on March 18, 2014, 01:37:02 pm
steward is too high (come at me)
Steward is one of the strongest cards in the game, I had it at #3.  If Steward is on the board, all you need is +actions and maybe +buy and an engine is possible.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 18, 2014, 01:58:28 pm
I think village is underrated. Yeah, it's not exciting, but engines are critical and for that you need +actions (usually). Certainly I'd rank it higher than scheme and market square and maybe warehouse.

I very much disagree. Scheme is just amazing for any engine. Warehouse is better in more cases. Market Square in cantrip +buy, with a Gold gaining reaction which comes in handy pretty often. Village is good, sure, but all $4 villages are better and not much more expensive that they will make engines stronger.

It depends on what you mean by "not much more expensive". When you're just buying 1-2 copies of a card, the difference between $3 and $4 is not that much, since you'll hit $4 often enough. But when you're building an engine and trying to buy multiple pieces per turn, that $1 matters a lot. You can buy TWO Villages for $6, but only one Farming Village. You can also gain then easily with Hermits or Upgrades. So while it's true that the $4 villages are better once they're in your deck, I think that vanilla Village's "benefit" of costing $1 less is actually a big enough deal that it's better than Fortress/Mining/Farming/Walled.

Scheme is not amazing for "any engine". It's just amazing for engines that need to draw specific cards first. If your deck is trimmed enough, you get appropriate draws nearly all the time anyway, so the Scheme is just a waste of a $3 buy. And even for the engines for which it's good, it's not critical most of the time. Lack of a village can be an absolute deal-breaker.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: GeoLib on March 18, 2014, 03:12:22 pm
I think village is underrated. Yeah, it's not exciting, but engines are critical and for that you need +actions (usually). Certainly I'd rank it higher than scheme and market square and maybe warehouse.

I very much disagree. Scheme is just amazing for any engine. Warehouse is better in more cases. Market Square in cantrip +buy, with a Gold gaining reaction which comes in handy pretty often. Village is good, sure, but all $4 villages are better and not much more expensive that they will make engines stronger.

Does the existence of worker's village make vanilla village bad?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Witherweaver on March 18, 2014, 03:20:06 pm
I think village is underrated. Yeah, it's not exciting, but engines are critical and for that you need +actions (usually). Certainly I'd rank it higher than scheme and market square and maybe warehouse.

I very much disagree. Scheme is just amazing for any engine. Warehouse is better in more cases. Market Square in cantrip +buy, with a Gold gaining reaction which comes in handy pretty often. Village is good, sure, but all $4 villages are better and not much more expensive that they will make engines stronger.

Does the existence of worker's village make vanilla village bad?

If all the workers moved there, yes.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: eHalcyon on March 18, 2014, 03:52:15 pm
Might be a 1/10 chance for hitting two copper, but there's also the chance of hitting one copper which also isn't that great.  You have 24% chance of hitting two Estates.  But hey, this is assuming you open 5/2.  What if you open 2/5?  You'll be an additional turn behind if you skip the $2 hand, or you'll drop the percentages for a good Doctor overpay if you buy something.
I would rarely open doctor with 2/5, and certainly not if there's chapel. 5/2 doctor is extremely strong, but man, one turn difference is huge.

Quote
Again, Doctor is a good opening.  I am not arguing against that.  But silerspawn said that $5 Doctor is the BEST opening, better than any Chapel opening and "as good as it gets".  I am saying that it isn't at all clear that Doctor is the very best, and that there are certainly boards where Chapel would be the better choice.
Well, it's only the best if you want to trash down quickly. If you go for a garden rush, it's a terrible opening. You can compare it to chapel because you generally want to do the same thing with both. Are there boards where chapel is better? Yea, every shelter board. Trashing shelters with doctor is such a pain. Aside from that though, I don't think it really depends on the board. Maybe the importance of hitting 5$ is a factor, but generally they will behave similar on most boards, since you want to do the same thing with both of them. I just feel like 5$ doctor kills junk faster than chapel and has more buying power, so it's just better no matter what the rest of the board looks like. I'm not certain, even though I've played quite a lot of games with both, it's possible that I was lucky with doctor in most of them. This is actually something simulations could give answers to.

Can't believe this is the second time I'm defending a $3 trasher. Uh, but overall chapel is defintely better. 5$ doctor opening is great, but you only open with 5$ in... *doing maths* 8,3% of all games. Doctor is like trading post, very good early but loses strength really fast.

It seems you are backing off of your earlier claims, so I'm not so much in disagreement.  Again, all I was saying is that $5 Doctor opening is not always the best, and that Chapel can win out sometimes and it isn't always clear which one has the adantage.  You say that the two can be fairly similar, and I can agree with that.

On a specific points, you say that Doctor trashes faster and has more buying power.  I don't think this is completely accurate.  Doctor is initially faster, whereas Chapel is faster overall.  That initial speed can be very important, but Chapel is more reliable against junking attacks as well as against bad shuffle luck, while still being almost as fast.  In the specific case of 5/2 opening hands, Chapel has much higher initial buying power (since you get to use that $5 hand to buy something awesome) while Doctor allows for more buying power on the hands when it is played.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: markusin on March 19, 2014, 07:31:35 am
Might be a 1/10 chance for hitting two copper, but there's also the chance of hitting one copper which also isn't that great.  You have 24% chance of hitting two Estates.  But hey, this is assuming you open 5/2.  What if you open 2/5?  You'll be an additional turn behind if you skip the $2 hand, or you'll drop the percentages for a good Doctor overpay if you buy something.
I would rarely open doctor with 2/5, and certainly not if there's chapel. 5/2 doctor is extremely strong, but man, one turn difference is huge.

Quote
Again, Doctor is a good opening.  I am not arguing against that.  But silerspawn said that $5 Doctor is the BEST opening, better than any Chapel opening and "as good as it gets".  I am saying that it isn't at all clear that Doctor is the very best, and that there are certainly boards where Chapel would be the better choice.
Well, it's only the best if you want to trash down quickly. If you go for a garden rush, it's a terrible opening. You can compare it to chapel because you generally want to do the same thing with both. Are there boards where chapel is better? Yea, every shelter board. Trashing shelters with doctor is such a pain. Aside from that though, I don't think it really depends on the board. Maybe the importance of hitting 5$ is a factor, but generally they will behave similar on most boards, since you want to do the same thing with both of them. I just feel like 5$ doctor kills junk faster than chapel and has more buying power, so it's just better no matter what the rest of the board looks like. I'm not certain, even though I've played quite a lot of games with both, it's possible that I was lucky with doctor in most of them. This is actually something simulations could give answers to.

Can't believe this is the second time I'm defending a $3 trasher. Uh, but overall chapel is defintely better. 5$ doctor opening is great, but you only open with 5$ in... *doing maths* 8,3% of all games. Doctor is like trading post, very good early but loses strength really fast.
You know what, 5/2 opening with doctor (or 6/2 or 5/3) really does sound good for trashing, especially if you hit Estates with the overpay. You just need good cards to get at low costs.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: shark_bait on March 19, 2014, 10:35:17 am
The thing with Doctor is that you just have to name the right card.  Assuming your deck isn't too large, with some knowledge of your deck state you can name the right card which probability says is the best card to name.  Just like chapel gets behind with a T5 draw, Doctor can get behind with only trashing 1-Card.  That really sets you back immensely as your deck doesn't get any smaller and you then have a harder time of knowing exactly what card to name.  Doctor games can swing quickly to one players favor based on differences in the opening hands and subsequent naming of cards. 
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Joseph2302 on March 19, 2014, 01:12:55 pm
Tunnel should be 2, and market square 1, they're just both amazing- my favourite 2 cards!!
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: KingZog3 on March 19, 2014, 04:07:36 pm
Tunnel should be 2, and market square 1, they're just both amazing- my favourite 2 cards!!

I think a lot of people had this phase. I ceratinly thought Tunnel was one of the best until I realized it's not.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: silverspawn on March 19, 2014, 04:58:38 pm
Tunnel should be 2, and market square 1, they're just both amazing- my favourite 2 cards!!

double market square opening will beat double amb almost 1 of 10000000000000 times
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: LastFootnote on March 19, 2014, 05:02:21 pm
Tunnel should be 2, and market square 1, they're just both amazing- my favourite 2 cards!!

double market square opening will beat double amb almost 1 of 10000000000000 times

Ha! My phone thinks "10000000000000" is a phone number and creates a link for it.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Tables on March 19, 2014, 08:01:50 pm
Tunnel should be 2, and market square 1, they're just both amazing- my favourite 2 cards!!

Wait, Tunnel isn't your favourite card any more? I remember the days of you always trying to include Tunnel in the kingdom...
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: KingZog3 on March 19, 2014, 08:55:14 pm
Tunnel should be 2, and market square 1, they're just both amazing- my favourite 2 cards!!

Wait, Tunnel isn't your favourite card any more? I remember the days of you always trying to include Tunnel in the kingdom...

Well Market Square can get the Golds while keeping a smaller deck. It's more engine friendly that's for sure. Plus it's a cantrip.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: markusin on March 20, 2014, 09:11:49 am
I'm more or less fine with this list, except I can't understand how Storeroom DROPPED in points. C'mon guys, most draw engines love Storeroom. Sifting, discarding green for coin, and even +buy. Storeroom's also great when it comes to getting potion cards.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 20, 2014, 09:22:31 am
I'm more or less fine with this list, except I can't understand how Storeroom DROPPED in points. C'mon guys, most draw engines love Storeroom. Sifting, discarding green for coin, and even +buy. Storeroom's also great when it comes to getting potion cards.
Terminal sifting isn't that great, and you don't want to have a lot of green to discard for coin usually. The +buy part is useful, though. It's mostly good for getting potion cards, double Tactician and draw-to-X and Scrying Pool engines, as well as getting early $5s if those are important, but other than that, it's usually skippable.

EDIT: Ah, I see now that this is pretty much exactly what Qvist said about it too. Well, at least I said one thing that wasn't in the Part 2/3 post!
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Joseph2302 on March 20, 2014, 09:56:14 am
Tunnel should be 2, and market square 1, they're just both amazing- my favourite 2 cards!!

Wait, Tunnel isn't your favourite card any more? I remember the days of you always trying to include Tunnel in the kingdom...

Nah market square is much more fun, more golds more easily etc. Also, now is a good time to point out my avatar is market square, so i obviously like it more.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: silverspawn on March 20, 2014, 10:11:39 am
you know there's a diffenrece between liking a card and estimating its power level?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Joseph2302 on March 20, 2014, 10:55:38 am
you know there's a diffenrece between liking a card and estimating its power level?

Yes, however I do tend to think cards I like are strong. Although, obviously I know Ambassador/Masquerade/Rebuild etc.. are strong, despite not particularly liking any of these.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: markusin on March 20, 2014, 02:51:41 pm
I'm more or less fine with this list, except I can't understand how Storeroom DROPPED in points. C'mon guys, most draw engines love Storeroom. Sifting, discarding green for coin, and even +buy. Storeroom's also great when it comes to getting potion cards.
Terminal sifting isn't that great, and you don't want to have a lot of green to discard for coin usually. The +buy part is useful, though. It's mostly good for getting potion cards, double Tactician and draw-to-X and Scrying Pool engines, as well as getting early $5s if those are important, but other than that, it's usually skippable.

EDIT: Ah, I see now that this is pretty much exactly what Qvist said about it too. Well, at least I said one thing that wasn't in the Part 2/3 post!
Storeroom works well in any Village-Smithy variant deck. Not sure how common those are anymore. So far, I've been pretty satisfied with Storeroom's performance to rate it higher. I'll see if I keep it there for the next card ranking.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 20, 2014, 02:55:51 pm
^It seems like you need a lot of spare actions to get use from the sifting. I feel like in the late game in a big engine it's mostly just Secret Chamber with a buy.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 20, 2014, 03:46:17 pm
^It seems like you need a lot of spare actions to get use from the sifting. I feel like in the late game in a big engine it's mostly just Secret Chamber with a buy.
This. I'd rather just have another Smithy instead. Maybe if you hit $3 and there are no other engine parts at $3 it can be worth it.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on March 20, 2014, 04:49:54 pm
Anyway, I am glad Masq. is number 1. I think prior to DA that Amb. was probably deserving of the number one spot but shelters, ruins and other strategies are causing me to buy Amb. less often, and I now find myself buying Masq. more often.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: KingZog3 on March 20, 2014, 06:30:41 pm
^It seems like you need a lot of spare actions to get use from the sifting. I feel like in the late game in a big engine it's mostly just Secret Chamber with a buy.
This. I'd rather just have another Smithy instead. Maybe if you hit $3 and there are no other engine parts at $3 it can be worth it.

I find Storeroom is best for BM or Alt-VP games. Cellar does much better job in an engine for sifting.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on March 20, 2014, 07:39:58 pm
^It seems like you need a lot of spare actions to get use from the sifting. I feel like in the late game in a big engine it's mostly just Secret Chamber with a buy.
This. I'd rather just have another Smithy instead. Maybe if you hit $3 and there are no other engine parts at $3 it can be worth it.

I find Storeroom is best for BM or Alt-VP games. Cellar does much better job in an engine for sifting.

inb4 Storeroom is worse because Cellar joke.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: GeoLib on March 20, 2014, 07:44:57 pm
^It seems like you need a lot of spare actions to get use from the sifting. I feel like in the late game in a big engine it's mostly just Secret Chamber with a buy.
This. I'd rather just have another Smithy instead. Maybe if you hit $3 and there are no other engine parts at $3 it can be worth it.


I find Storeroom is best for BM or Alt-VP games. Cellar does much better job in an engine for sifting.

inb4 Storeroom is worse because Cellar joke.

Storeroom is worse because cellar and Cellar is worse because warehouse
Storeroom is worse because warehouse
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 20, 2014, 07:47:20 pm
^It seems like you need a lot of spare actions to get use from the sifting. I feel like in the late game in a big engine it's mostly just Secret Chamber with a buy.
This. I'd rather just have another Smithy instead. Maybe if you hit $3 and there are no other engine parts at $3 it can be worth it.


I find Storeroom is best for BM or Alt-VP games. Cellar does much better job in an engine for sifting.

inb4 Storeroom is worse because Cellar joke.

Storeroom is worse because cellar and Cellar is worse because warehouse
Storeroom is worse because warehouse
+1 for the therefore
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: markusin on March 20, 2014, 07:50:09 pm
^It seems like you need a lot of spare actions to get use from the sifting. I feel like in the late game in a big engine it's mostly just Secret Chamber with a buy.
This. I'd rather just have another Smithy instead. Maybe if you hit $3 and there are no other engine parts at $3 it can be worth it.

I find Storeroom is best for BM or Alt-VP games. Cellar does much better job in an engine for sifting.
The Storeroom also provides +buy, a key component for engines. Otherwise yeah, I guess I'd prefer Cellar for the non-terminal-ness
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: DG on March 20, 2014, 08:04:50 pm
Storeroom is a top quality action when it is useful. Absolutely excellent when you want to pick out key cards and specific price points, such as 3 coins+potion. How do you balance that against general utility though?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on March 20, 2014, 11:27:59 pm
On most boards Storeroom is a weak card. On the boards it is useful, it is usually just average. So, that does not make it a strong card. I mean, sure there are some boards where it shines, but those are super rare and just about any card shines on the right board.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: brokoli on March 21, 2014, 03:22:22 am
On the boards it is useful, it is usually just average.
This is just… not true. A card that can turn a strategy that buy a province each turn, into one that can double-province each turn without being destroyed too hard by the greening… is not "just average".
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 21, 2014, 06:04:36 am
On the boards it is useful, it is usually just average.
This is just… not true. A card that can turn a strategy that buy a province each turn, into one that can double-province each turn without being destroyed too hard by the greening… is not "just average".
Well, Council Room can do that, too, and it is much better at it and still definitely "just average".
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: hsiale on March 21, 2014, 06:15:08 am
On the boards it is useful, it is usually just average.
This is just… not true. A card that can turn a strategy that buy a province each turn, into one that can double-province each turn without being destroyed too hard by the greening… is not "just average".
Well, Council Room can do that, too, and it is much better at it and still definitely "just average".
Council Room also costs $5 and benefits your opponent.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 21, 2014, 07:20:42 am
On the boards it is useful, it is usually just average.
This is just… not true. A card that can turn a strategy that buy a province each turn, into one that can double-province each turn without being destroyed too hard by the greening… is not "just average".
Well, Council Room can do that, too, and it is much better at it and still definitely "just average".
Council Room also costs $5 and benefits your opponent.
I took that into account.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: c4master on March 23, 2014, 01:15:11 pm
On the boards it is useful, it is usually just average.
This is just… not true. A card that can turn a strategy that buy a province each turn, into one that can double-province each turn without being destroyed too hard by the greening… is not "just average".
Well, Council Room can do that, too, and it is much better at it and still definitely "just average".
Council Room also costs $5 and benefits your opponent.
I took that into account.
Seems really tough to compare a $3 sifter (and discarder for $1 each) to a $5 drawer.
Besides, I think, Council Room is a strong card.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 23, 2014, 02:07:43 pm
Seems really tough to compare a $3 sifter (and discarder for $1 each) to a $5 drawer.
Besides, I think, Council Room is a strong card.
Council Room is a strong card, but a lot of $5 cards are stronger. And there isn't a $3 +buy giving drawer (which is, as I said earlier, a reason to buy Storeroom sometimes if you happen to hit $3), so I made a comparison with Council Room, which fills the same role in an engine as Storeroom does (+buy and +cards), but is stronger relative to its cost while still being a pretty average $5 card.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: 7string on April 18, 2014, 03:47:45 am
Reflections and lessons learned on $3 cards.

(see my comments on the $1-$2 cards for my process of analyzing my rankings versus the new 2014 consensus rankings)
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10578.msg368900#msg368900

I did not have as many exact ranking matches as with the $1-$2 cards…I only had 4 exact matches out of the 34 cards.

My most overrated cards were near the bottom.  I ranked both Great Hall and Woodcutter 5 and 6 spots higher respectively.  I don’t think either of them are great cards, but there are other cards I have just never been fond of which I ranked a little lower.  Some of those I have changed my mind on after reading the comments, so both of these would be a little lower if I rated them now.

My most underrated card was Lookout followed by Masterpiece.  I have never been much of a Lookout fan due to using it in situations where I was forced to trash a good card (probably my own mistake for playing too late in the game).  I will remember to consider it if no other trashers are available (and obviously for Sea Hag games).  Masterpiece I have completely rethought thanks to the comments, and I would definitely rank it quite a bit higher now.

Other than Lookout and Masterpiece, my biggest lesson learned had to be Hermit/Madman.  I had just not played that card/combo enough, but after playing the Hermit/Market Square combo a couple times, my eyes are now open to its possibilities!

Where I still differ…not too much in the $3 cards.  I’m still not sure about Masquerade in the #1 spot (I had Ambassador there), but am using it a lot more now.  I probably still think Watchtower, Scheme and Tunnel should be a bit higher.  But again…you all have me thinking…
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: terminalCopper on June 02, 2015, 09:51:00 am
It's over a year ago that I looked at this list, and now, there is one HUGE thing terrifying me: Why is urchin so low? I'd put it in top 3, close to masq and amb, even ahead of fishing village, which is excellent. But really, if you buy vanilla villages instead of fishing villages, you are less likely to lose than if you open with, say, multiple lookouts instead of urchins. Mostly, urchin is a must-buy, at least I think so.

Does anyone agree, or do I miss something?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: Mr Anderson on June 02, 2015, 10:02:48 am
Urchin should be lower than Steward, though, as Steward is faster than Mercenary, which in 95% of the time is the reason you get Urchins.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: jsh357 on June 02, 2015, 10:09:37 am
The power of Urchin was not well understood at the time this list was made.  It is virtually guaranteed to shoot up the ranking next list.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
Post by: werothegreat on June 02, 2015, 10:10:44 am
Hopefully the next one will be soon.