Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Qvist on February 09, 2014, 06:48:24 am
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Two years passed since the first Dominion Card Lists were compiled, the skill level of all players raised and a lot of new knowledge is gained. Also it's the first time we know ALL the cards. That means it's time for the 2014 edition of the Dominion Card Lists.
What do you have to do?
If you like to contribute, go to http://www.qvist.de/dommesh
I'm not the best web designer to make it look nice, but it works. There you can order the cards either all at once in a big list or by comparing two cards at a time. If you do the latter, the app will tell you when you're done and no new "card duel" is available anymore. I didn't include a registration or anything like that for this simple app. You can just login by your Goko name and any password you like. The next time you login you just have to remember the password you've set on your first login. I expect that nobody will trick me by using a user name of anyone else. I will also still accept PMs if you still want to do that in the old fashioned way. If you send me a PM please be sure that you put each card in order and don't miss any. If you don't know an expansion very well you can choose to leave it out. But be sure that if you want to include a card of a specific expansion, you have ro rank all cards of the expansion. There are no restriction with Promo cards, so if you don't know Governor very well, you can leave it out.
Cards are only counted if they are kingdom cards, so no Copper, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Potion, Estate, Duchy, Province, Colony, Curse, Prizes, Shelters, Ruins, Spoils, Madman, Mercenary or individual Knights are allowed. If you want to look up the card texts and also the last year's lists, just go to our wiki. http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com
If you submit your list, you also agree that I may give this to third party, like theory or rrenaud. If you don't agree send me a PM.
If you've submitted last year, I will not take your last submission into account.
But if you didn't save your last year's submission and you need it, feel free to PM me and I will send it to you.
Just arrange the cards for your ranking with the best card going first and the worst on the last position.
I included extra lists for Prizes, individual Knights and Ruins. These are optional, you don't have to rank them if you don't want.
You can also if you want rank all the kingdom cards in one big list, just like Wandering Winder did. This is also optional as this takes a lot of time.
If you want PM me, this list should be subdivided into several lists, containing:
22 $1-$2 cards, 34 $3 cards, 57 $4 cards, 66 $5 cards, 16 $6+ cards, 10 Potion cards = 205
Usual disclaimer: This list should cause discussion not hassle. Of course it's difficult to compare some of the cards because pretty much every card has some situations where it shines and situations where it doesn't. This isn't a scientific list, just a compiled list of the community's opinion of the best cards.
Card List:
22 $1-$2 cards
Cellar (Base)
Chapel (Base)
Moat (Base)
Courtyard (Intrigue)
Pawn (Intrigue)
Secret Chamber (Intrigue)
Embargo (Seaside)
Haven (Seaside)
Lighthouse (Seaside)
Native Village (Seaside)
Pearl Diver (Seaside)
Herbalist (Alchemy)
Hamlet (Cornucopia)
Crossroads (Hinterlands)
Duchess (Hinterlands)
Fool's Gold (Hinterlands)
Beggar (Dark Ages)
Poor House (Dark Ages)
Squire (Dark Ages)
Vagrant (Dark Ages)
Candlestick Maker (Guilds)
Stonemason (Guilds)
34 $3 cards
Chancellor (Base)
Village (Base)
Woodcutter (Base)
Workshop (Base)
Great Hall (Intrigue)
Masquerade (Intrigue)
Shanty Town (Intrigue)
Steward (Intrigue)
Swindler (Intrigue)
Wishing Well (Intrigue)
Ambassador (Seaside)
Fishing Village (Seaside)
Lookout (Seaside)
Smugglers (Seaside)
Warehouse (Seaside)
Loan (Prosperity)
Trade Route (Prosperity)
Watchtower (Prosperity)
Fortune Teller (Cornucopia)
Menagerie (Cornucopia)
Develop (Hinterlands)
Oasis (Hinterlands)
Oracle (Hinterlands)
Scheme (Hinterlands)
Tunnel (Hinterlands)
Forager (Dark Ages)
Hermit/Madman (Dark Ages)
Market Square (Dark Ages)
Sage (Dark Ages)
Storeroom (Dark Ages)
Urchin/Mercenary (Dark Ages)
Doctor (Guilds)
Masterpiece (Guilds)
Black Market (Promo)
57 $4 cards
Bureaucrat (Base)
Feast (Base)
Gardens (Base)
Militia (Base)
Moneylender (Base)
Remodel (Base)
Smithy (Base)
Spy (Base)
Thief (Base)
Throne Room (Base)
Baron (Intrigue)
Bridge (Intrigue)
Conspirator (Intrigue)
Coppersmith (Intrigue)
Ironworks (Intrigue)
Mining Village (Intrigue)
Scout (Intrigue)
Caravan (Seaside)
Cutpurse (Seaside)
Island (Seaside)
Navigator (Seaside)
Pirate Ship (Seaside)
Salvager (Seaside)
Sea Hag (Seaside)
Treasure Map (Seaside)
Bishop (Prosperity)
Monument (Prosperity)
Quarry (Prosperity)
Talisman (Prosperity)
Worker's Village (Prosperity)
Farming Village (Cornucopia)
Horse Traders (Cornucopia)
Remake (Cornucopia)
Tournament (Cornucopia)
Young Witch (Cornucopia)
Jack of all Trades (Hinterlands)
Noble Brigand (Hinterlands)
Nomad Camp (Hinterlands)
Silk Road (Hinterlands)
Spice Merchant (Hinterlands)
Trader (Hinterlands)
Armory (Dark Ages)
Death Cart (Dark Ages)
Feodum (Dark Ages)
Fortress (Dark Ages)
Ironmonger (Dark Ages)
Marauder (Dark Ages)
Procession (Dark Ages)
Rats (Dark Ages)
Scavenger (Dark Ages)
Wandering Minstrel (Dark Ages)
Advisor (Guilds)
Herald (Guilds)
Plaza (Guilds)
Taxman (Guilds)
Envoy (Promo)
Walled Village (Promo)
66 $5 cards
Council Room (Base)
Festival (Base)
Laboratory (Base)
Library (Base)
Market (Base)
Mine (Base)
Witch (Base)
Duke (Intrigue)
Minion (Intrigue)
Saboteur (Intrigue)
Torturer (Intrigue)
Trading Post (Intrigue)
Tribute (Intrigue)
Upgrade (Intrigue)
Bazaar (Seaside)
Explorer (Seaside)
Ghost Ship (Seaside)
Merchant Ship (Seaside)
Outpost (Seaside)
Tactician (Seaside)
Treasury (Seaside)
Wharf (Seaside)
Apprentice (Alchemy)
City (Prosperity)
Contraband (Prosperity)
Counting House (Prosperity)
Mint (Prosperity)
Mountebank (Prosperity)
Rabble (Prosperity)
Royal Seal (Prosperity)
Vault (Prosperity)
Venture (Prosperity)
Harvest (Cornucopia)
Horn of Plenty (Cornucopia)
Hunting Party (Cornucopia)
Jester (Cornucopia)
Cache (Hinterlands)
Cartographer (Hinterlands)
Embassy (Hinterlands)
Haggler (Hinterlands)
Highway (Hinterlands)
Ill-Gotten Gains (Hinterlands)
Inn (Hinterlands)
Mandarin (Hinterlands)
Margrave (Hinterlands)
Stables (Hinterlands)
Bandit Camp (Dark Ages)
Band of Misfits (Dark Ages)
Catacombs (Dark Ages)
Counterfeit (Dark Ages)
Count (Dark Ages)
Cultist (Dark Ages)
Graverobber (Dark Ages)
Junk Dealer (Dark Ages)
Knights (Dark Ages)
Mystic (Dark Ages)
Pillage (Dark Ages)
Rebuild (Dark Ages)
Rogue (Dark Ages)
Baker (Guilds)
Butcher (Guilds)
Journeyman (Guilds)
Merchant Guild (Guilds)
Soothsayer (Guilds)
Governor (Promo)
Stash (Promo)
16 $6+ cards
Adventurer (Base)
Harem (Intrigue)
Nobles (Intrigue)
Goons (Prosperity)
Grand Market (Prosperity)
Hoard (Prosperity)
Bank (Prosperity)
Expand (Prosperity)
Forge (Prosperity)
King's Court (Prosperity)
Peddler (Prosperity)
Fairgrounds (Cornucopia)
Border Village (Hinterlands)
Farmland (Hinterlands)
Altar (Dark Ages)
Hunting Grounds (Dark Ages)
10 Potion cards
Transmute (Alchemy)
Vineyard (Alchemy)
Apothecary (Alchemy)
Scrying Pool (Alchemy)
University (Alchemy)
Alchemist (Alchemy)
Familiar (Alchemy)
Philosopher's Stone (Alchemy)
Golem (Alchemy)
Possession (Alchemy)
What else?
Submission deadline is the 23th of February 11:59pm UTC.
Each card will get a percentage value based on the rank. So your best card gets 100% and your worst gets 0%. This will result in a compiled list of all of your lists.
When I post the results, I will also include the ususal statistic data. I will change a little bit on the comments to not let you wait that long until I post all the results.
If you encounter some bugs, just send me a PM and I'll fix them ASAP.
Let's see how many submissions we get this time. The more we get the better the rankings will be. I can't wait to get your submissions. If you have any questions, ask them here.
Results:
Ruins (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10571.0)
$1-$2 cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10578.0)
$3 cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10623.0)
$4 cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10714.0)
$5 cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10850.0)
Knights (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11199.0)
$6+ cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11791.0)
Potion cost cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11893.0)
Prizes
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What sorting algorithm do you use for the duels? I had a few come up that seemed inconsequential based on my earlier duels when I was sorting $6 cards.
Otherwise, so glad this got implemented for this round of sorting!
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The number of cards in each category inside the code block wasn't updated after the Guilds cards were added to it. For example, there are 22 cards from 1-2 instead of 20. The OP specifies this though.
I'm really excited for this, as it will be my first time submitting a card list for the rankings.
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Ambassador never showed up as I did the "All Kingdom cards" sort. All the other cards did.
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What sorting algorithm do you use for the duels? I had a few come up that seemed inconsequential based on my earlier duels when I was sorting $6 cards.
Otherwise, so glad this got implemented for this round of sorting!
Sorting mechanisms didn't quite work. Or at least not how I wanted it to work. I build a graph with all the relations. Therefore the algorithm shouldn't "ask you" something redundantly, that's basically impossible, but I'm not convinced that I use the fastest method.
The number of cards in each category inside the code block wasn't updated after the Guilds cards were added to it. For example, there are 22 cards from 1-2 instead of 20. The OP specifies this though.
Fixed.
Ambassador never showed up as I did the "All Kingdom cards" sort. All the other cards did.
Weird. Thanks for reporting. Let me have a look.
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Ambassador never showed up as I did the "All Kingdom cards" sort. All the other cards did.
Weird. Thanks for reporting. Let me have a look.
Bug should be fixed. Please try again.
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Wishing Well didn't show up for me until the very end. Was a little tedious sorting it at that point, but otherwise things seemed to go OK.
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What sorting algorithm do you use for the duels? I had a few come up that seemed inconsequential based on my earlier duels when I was sorting $6 cards.
Otherwise, so glad this got implemented for this round of sorting!
Sorting mechanisms didn't quite work. Or at least not how I wanted it to work. I build a graph with all the relations. Therefore the algorithm shouldn't "ask you" something redundantly, that's basically impossible, but I'm not convinced that I use the fastest method.
I don't know what you mean by this. You are sorting a list of cards based on comparisons of two cards -- this is exactly what a sorting algorithm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_algorithm) does. It sounds like you created your own sorting algorithm. If it's inefficient, it will be fine for smaller lists, but a huge pain for the longer ones.
The Dominion Card Sorter (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9221.0) that I wrote uses Python's default sorting mechanism, which I believe is a variant of quicksort. That code is open-source, so feel free to use it if you like. Others wanting to send in lists by PM can also use it if they know how to run Python scripts.
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I think the "No new duels" message shows up too soon sometimes. There will be cards I haven't compared directly that would definitely need direct comparison to determine their ranking (i.e. the bottom two or three cards on the list). When the message shows up early (or it seems to be early), if I keep choosing cards in the comparison box the message will disappear after one or two selections.
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it's really hard to rank stonemason - more so than any other of the overpay cards - because it's so board-dependent.
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The rerank feature is also broken in some way. After I completed the $2 list, I wanted to switch #19-20, so I clicked on #19 to rerank. It seemingly pairs #19 with a (seemingly) random card from the list, after I choose the winner, it tells me all the duels are completed again. It doesn't matter which card I choose to rerank, it offers me one comparison choice and then says all the duels are complete. Is the intended behavior that reranking a card will wipe all comparison info for that particular card? Because that isn't happening at the moment.
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the other difficulty i'm having is comparing cards like beggar vs pawn. pawn is more useful in an engine, where beggar is useful in slogs. engines are usually best, but pawn isn't such a great engine card; contrariwise, when beggar shines it shines really bright, but those occasions are fairly rare. So I feel like I'm rating engines vs slogs rather than two cards.
I've never participated in these rankings before! What do I do!? AHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!
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It would be nice if, when switching ranking mode, it would remember the rankings I gave it from the duels.
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I think the "No new duels" message shows up too soon sometimes. There will be cards I haven't compared directly that would definitely need direct comparison to determine their ranking (i.e. the bottom two or three cards on the list). When the message shows up early (or it seems to be early), if I keep choosing cards in the comparison box the message will disappear after one or two selections.
I don't think that is possible. I've tested it dozens of times. You don't have to compare each card directly so that a correct ranking is determined, that is the intention of any sorting algorithm.
Regarding the rerank feature, it only wipes all comparisms when you vote differently, if you vote in the same way again, there is no need for a wipe, so there is no new duel available.
I agree, it's not perfect yet. I agree. I'll fix it.
It would be nice if, when switching ranking mode, it would remember the rankings I gave it from the duels.
True. I missed that. I'll add this.
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Two years passed since the first Dominion Card Lists were compiled, the skill level of all players raised and a lot of new knowledge is gained. Also it's the first time we know ALL the cards. That means it's time for the 2014 edition of the Dominion Card Lists.
Sorry to nitpick, but this isn't technically true. We're liable to see at least a few more promos.
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I think the "No new duels" message shows up too soon sometimes. There will be cards I haven't compared directly that would definitely need direct comparison to determine their ranking (i.e. the bottom two or three cards on the list). When the message shows up early (or it seems to be early), if I keep choosing cards in the comparison box the message will disappear after one or two selections.
I don't think that is possible. I've tested it dozens of times. You don't have to compare each card directly so that a correct ranking is determined, that is the intention of any sorting algorithm.
Regarding the rerank feature, it only wipes all comparisms when you vote differently, if you vote in the same way again, there is no need for a wipe, so there is no new duel available.
I agree, it's not perfect yet. I agree. I'll fix it.
I realize you don't have to compare each card directly, but you certainly have to compare the bottom two directly, which I why I specifically mentioned this in my post. I can keep running lists again, but I'm fairly certain I had not compared the bottom two in my list which would be a bug.
For the rerank thing, your method isn't very effective since the single new comparison is apparently random. If I want to tweak my ranking of card #20 and it randomly compares it to card #1 this is useless. The rerank should just reset the info for that particular card. Or you should make it more clear how the rerank feature is implemented.
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It would be nice if, when switching ranking mode, it would remember the rankings I gave it from the duels.
Added. Should work now.
I think the "No new duels" message shows up too soon sometimes. There will be cards I haven't compared directly that would definitely need direct comparison to determine their ranking (i.e. the bottom two or three cards on the list). When the message shows up early (or it seems to be early), if I keep choosing cards in the comparison box the message will disappear after one or two selections.
I don't think that is possible. I've tested it dozens of times. You don't have to compare each card directly so that a correct ranking is determined, that is the intention of any sorting algorithm.
Regarding the rerank feature, it only wipes all comparisms when you vote differently, if you vote in the same way again, there is no need for a wipe, so there is no new duel available.
I agree, it's not perfect yet. I agree. I'll fix it.
I realize you don't have to compare each card directly, but you certainly have to compare the bottom two directly, which I why I specifically mentioned this in my post. I can keep running lists again, but I'm fairly certain I had not compared the bottom two in my list which would be a bug.
For the rerank thing, your method isn't very effective since the single new comparison is apparently random. If I want to tweak my ranking of card #20 and it randomly compares it to card #1 this is useless. The rerank should just reset the info for that particular card. Or you should make it more clear how the rerank feature is implemented.
Well, you should now be able to swap the two cards if you switch modes. I'll fix the rerank feature at a later time. I totally agree with you that it's confusing currently. Sorry for any confusion.
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It would be nice if, when switching ranking mode, it would remember the rankings I gave it from the duels.
Added. Should work now.
awesomesauce. (yes it's working.)
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Would it be possible for you to add a Test list that just has numbers 1-25 or something? I really think there is a bug in your sorting algorithm, it is the same problem as before: I am seeing "no new duel" while doing the $3 dollar list, I think I've chosen Masquerade as the winner in every pairing so far and it is #9 in my list.
edit: is possible I am just screwing up what I click on. I tried a ranking of the $2s just based on alphabetic order and it worked correctly. It might be nice to include a feature to clear a list entirely.
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mh... is it possible to get a card "back" when you accidently clicked on "I don't know this card"?
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I'm excited for this. I am curious to see the results!
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Would it be possible for you to add a Test list that just has numbers 1-25 or something? I really think there is a bug in your sorting algorithm, it is the same problem as before: I am seeing "no new duel" while doing the $3 dollar list, I think I've chosen Masquerade as the winner in every pairing so far and it is #9 in my list.
edit: is possible I am just screwing up what I click on. I tried a ranking of the $2s just based on alphabetic order and it worked correctly. It might be nice to include a feature to clear a list entirely.
I double-checked the algorithm. I can't find any errors, at least.
I now implemented a change to the rerank feature. You can either click on the card to get a random match-up/comparism or click on the red X to delete all votes of a card.
mh... is it possible to get a card "back" when you accidently clicked on "I don't know this card"?
This should be now possible. Just click on the red X beside the card in the section "Ignored cards".
What sorting algorithm do you use for the duels? I had a few come up that seemed inconsequential based on my earlier duels when I was sorting $6 cards.
Otherwise, so glad this got implemented for this round of sorting!
Sorting mechanisms didn't quite work. Or at least not how I wanted it to work. I build a graph with all the relations. Therefore the algorithm shouldn't "ask you" something redundantly, that's basically impossible, but I'm not convinced that I use the fastest method.
I don't know what you mean by this. You are sorting a list of cards based on comparisons of two cards -- this is exactly what a sorting algorithm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_algorithm) does. It sounds like you created your own sorting algorithm. If it's inefficient, it will be fine for smaller lists, but a huge pain for the longer ones.
The Dominion Card Sorter (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9221.0) that I wrote uses Python's default sorting mechanism, which I believe is a variant of quicksort. That code is open-source, so feel free to use it if you like. Others wanting to send in lists by PM can also use it if they know how to run Python scripts.
I thought about this a little bit. But I'm pretty sure it's not as easy as a single sorting algorithm. A sorting algorithm has no state, you can't interrupt it and continue at a later time. The internet is state-less, so first you need a way to save the state of a sorting algorithm. Also I want to give the user some possibilities like select a card he likes to rank or remove a card from the list if he doesn't know it etc. Also someone can change his mind and "correct" a duel he has made earlier. How do you handle that? Unless I miss some easy way, there isn't just an easy way like a sorting algorithm.
I use the following approach: Every card is a vertex in a graph and each comparism/duel is an edge in a directed graph which gets saved in a database. For "sorting" I first try to merge all little graphs into a big one and then compare sister vertices until I have a graph where every vertix has at most one predecessor and one successor.
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I thought about this a little bit. But I'm pretty sure it's not as easy as a single sorting algorithm. A sorting algorithm has no state, you can't interrupt it and continue at a later time. The internet is state-less, so first you need a way to save the state of a sorting algorithm. Also I want to give the user some possibilities like select a card he likes to rank or remove a card from the list if he doesn't know it etc. Also someone can change his mind and "correct" a duel he has made earlier. How do you handle that? Unless I miss some easy way, there isn't just an easy way like a sorting algorithm.
I use the following approach: Every card is a vertex in a graph and each comparism/duel is an edge in a directed graph which gets saved in a database. For "sorting" I first try to merge all little graphs into a big one and then compare sister vertices until I have a graph where every vertix has at most one predecessor and one successor.
Any method of sorting is a "sorting algorithm". I'm not sure what you mean about sorting algorithms not having state. It sounds like you're using a variation of merge sort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merge_sort) where the items are stored in a graph. You could probably just store them in sorted sublists with the same effect. But, it sounds like what you're doing should be pretty efficient, since merge sort has good performance.
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This should be now possible. Just click on the red X beside the card in the section "Ignored cards".
yap. thanks
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Will you be counting partially completed lists? (Like if someone ranked the $2s but not the other costs). I logged on and ranked a couple lists just to see how the thing works and give my opinions, but since I am not really familiar with Guilds, and also haven't played a lot of Dominion since Iso went away, it's probably best if you just ignore my submissions.
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Will you be counting partially completed lists? (Like if someone ranked the $2s but not the other costs). I logged on and ranked a couple lists just to see how the thing works and give my opinions, but since I am not really familiar with Guilds, and also haven't played a lot of Dominion since Iso went away, it's probably best if you just ignore my submissions.
Well, if you haven't played much Dominion since Iso, chances are your Goko rating (or Isotropish, more likely) will be pretty low, so your list won't have all that much influence.
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Will you be counting partially completed lists? (Like if someone ranked the $2s but not the other costs). I logged on and ranked a couple lists just to see how the thing works and give my opinions, but since I am not really familiar with Guilds, and also haven't played a lot of Dominion since Iso went away, it's probably best if you just ignore my submissions.
I'd just advise you to just click on "I don't know this card" if it is from Guilds or even Dark Ages and you can easily complete the ranking.
And Tables has also a valid point.
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Will you be counting partially completed lists? (Like if someone ranked the $2s but not the other costs). I logged on and ranked a couple lists just to see how the thing works and give my opinions, but since I am not really familiar with Guilds, and also haven't played a lot of Dominion since Iso went away, it's probably best if you just ignore my submissions.
I'd just advise you to just click on "I don't know this card" if it is from Guilds or even Dark Ages and you can easily complete the ranking.
And Tables has also a valid point.
Our list validity is based on our ranking?
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Will you be counting partially completed lists? (Like if someone ranked the $2s but not the other costs). I logged on and ranked a couple lists just to see how the thing works and give my opinions, but since I am not really familiar with Guilds, and also haven't played a lot of Dominion since Iso went away, it's probably best if you just ignore my submissions.
I'd just advise you to just click on "I don't know this card" if it is from Guilds or even Dark Ages and you can easily complete the ranking.
And Tables has also a valid point.
Our list validity is based on our ranking?
There will probably be a weighted and unweighted list as there usually is.
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I log into Goko using my Facebook account, so I don't have a specific Goko password. What am I supposed to do?
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You're not supposed to use your real password for that site. Just make something up and remember it for next time you want to log in.
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Submitted for the first time and it feels so good!
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You're not supposed to use your real password for that site. Just make something up and remember it for next time you want to log in.
In fact, you probably shouldn't be using a password that you use anywhere else here, since I assume the transmission and storage of the password is probably nowhere near as secure as where you usually enter passwords.
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Yeah. Don't use any password you use elsewhere. That's a rule you should always follow. If it feels you safer, I don't safe your password in clear text only in hashes, so I don't know any password by myself.
I use Isotropish ranking to weight the submissions, but, as usual, will point out in the results the unweighted ranking.
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You're not supposed to use your real password for that site. Just make something up and remember it for next time you want to log in.
I'm thinking maybe that should be spelled out on the site, that will stop people coming over here to find out.
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Submitted. Since this was my first card ranking, I decided to sort the cards without the duel comparator, WW style. Okay, I first ranked them in their cost groups and then merged them into one list.
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Sorry, I thought this was pretty clear not to use your Goko password. I even talked about it in the OP. I've added a line on the website.
Also, if you PM me, I reset your password and you may set a new one.
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I think something is funny with thr sorting algorithm -- ranking the 2s, I always voted for chapel, yet I was told there were no rankings left to do and it was in third place. I think maybe there is a bug when the user makes contradictory ratings.
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Oh boy, Pearl Diver vs Spy, that's a tough one!
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I think something is funny with thr sorting algorithm -- ranking the 2s, I always voted for chapel, yet I was told there were no rankings left to do and it was in third place. I think maybe there is a bug when the user makes contradictory ratings.
I'll have a look.
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Oh boy, Pearl Diver vs Spy, that's a tough one!
Hehe...it was a fun way to rank cards. It's easy to have illogical preferences when you have battles like this because you can spend so much energy convincing yourself that OMG spy should not cost 4 dollars that the next time you see it you rank it below rats or adventurer or something. I also like when you get something like Goons vs. Transmute.
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I think something is funny with thr sorting algorithm -- ranking the 2s, I always voted for chapel, yet I was told there were no rankings left to do and it was in third place. I think maybe there is a bug when the user makes contradictory ratings.
I'll have a look.
I would not at all be surprised if there were chains of the form a>b>c>d>a in my rankings because there were so many pairings I decided on a whim. I hope the minimum number of distinct cards in such a chain was 3...
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I think something is funny with thr sorting algorithm -- ranking the 2s, I always voted for chapel, yet I was told there were no rankings left to do and it was in third place. I think maybe there is a bug when the user makes contradictory ratings.
I'll have a look.
I would not at all be surprised if there were chains of the form a>b>c>d>a in my rankings because there were so many pairings I decided on a whim. I hope the minimum number of distinct cards in such a chain was 3...
I deal with circles, that's not the problem. I found the problem though and tried to fix it. Those darn edge cases, I hate you, Dominion. I had a wrong end condition when you sort all cards and the normal lists at the same time, that might have been the same problem Mic Qsenoch had. I hope that it works now. I haven't tested the fix a lot, but it should work now.
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Lists like these can also surprise you.
Apparently, I think Altar is a pretty strong card.
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does it even make sense to use the duel mode? i understand its appeal, but it's so tedius. you need at least n log(n) duels, that's about 400 duels for the 5$ cards. in the alternative mode, i find myself using something similiar to insertion sort, which in theory takes a lot longer, but it doesn't really take long, because you just look at f.e. igg and you instantly know it needs to be somehwere near the top. you just have to find the perfect spot.
circles will also happen a lot more often in the duel mode. it's still cool though.
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does it even make sense to use the duel mode? i understand its appeal, but it's so tedius. you need at least n log(n) duels, that's about 400 duels for the 5$ cards. in the alternative mode, i find myself using something similiar to insertion sort, which in theory takes a lot longer, but it doesn't really take long, because you just look at f.e. igg and you instantly know it needs to be somehwere near the top. you just have to find the perfect spot.
circles will also happen a lot more often in the duel mode. it's still cool though.
I used the duel mode, that way you don't have to spend too much time thinking and at least I got lists that I was perfectly happy with; I think it would take a lot longer to put the cards in the correct order manually and even then, I might not be completely satisfied with any list.
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does it even make sense to use the duel mode? i understand its appeal, but it's so tedius. you need at least n log(n) duels, that's about 400 duels for the 5$ cards. in the alternative mode, i find myself using something similiar to insertion sort, which in theory takes a lot longer, but it doesn't really take long, because you just look at f.e. igg and you instantly know it needs to be somehwere near the top. you just have to find the perfect spot.
circles will also happen a lot more often in the duel mode. it's still cool though.
I used the duel mode, that way you don't have to spend too much time thinking and at least I got lists that I was perfectly happy with; I think it would take a lot longer to put the cards in the correct order manually and even then, I might not be completely satisfied with any list.
Agreed. It's not perfect but it allows you to do it in a kind of intuitive way that feels satisfying.
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does it even make sense to use the duel mode? i understand its appeal, but it's so tedius. you need at least n log(n) duels, that's about 400 duels for the 5$ cards. in the alternative mode, i find myself using something similiar to insertion sort, which in theory takes a lot longer, but it doesn't really take long, because you just look at f.e. igg and you instantly know it needs to be somehwere near the top. you just have to find the perfect spot.
circles will also happen a lot more often in the duel mode. it's still cool though.
I did the full list thing. Even though I was just copying what I had on a spreadsheet, it still took me about 30 minutes to do the sort.
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I think something is funny with thr sorting algorithm -- ranking the 2s, I always voted for chapel, yet I was told there were no rankings left to do and it was in third place. I think maybe there is a bug when the user makes contradictory ratings.
I'll have a look.
I would not at all be surprised if there were chains of the form a>b>c>d>a in my rankings because there were so many pairings I decided on a whim. I hope the minimum number of distinct cards in such a chain was 3...
I deal with circles, that's not the problem. I found the problem though and tried to fix it. Those darn edge cases, I hate you, Dominion. I had a wrong end condition when you sort all cards and the normal lists at the same time, that might have been the same problem Mic Qsenoch had. I hope that it works now. I haven't tested the fix a lot, but it should work now.
When I first logged on I sorted in the All Cards list for a while and then I got bored and switched to the separate lists, so this is almost certainly the issue I had. Good to know I wasn't crazy though.
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does it even make sense to use the duel mode? i understand its appeal, but it's so tedius. you need at least n log(n) duels, that's about 400 duels for the 5$ cards. in the alternative mode, i find myself using something similiar to insertion sort, which in theory takes a lot longer, but it doesn't really take long, because you just look at f.e. igg and you instantly know it needs to be somehwere near the top. you just have to find the perfect spot.
circles will also happen a lot more often in the duel mode. it's still cool though.
I did the full list thing. Even though I was just copying what I had on a spreadsheet, it still took me about 30 minutes to do the sort.
getting through all cards with duel mode equals ~ 200*ld(256) = 1600 duels. if you spend 5 sec thinking for each duel, that's 8000 sec ~ two and a half hour. and that's assuming ld(n)*n, when in reality all sorting algorithms need more than that.
unless you already sorted all individual lists and it takes that into accout. don't know how much that would change.
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getting through all cards with duel mode equals ~ 200*ld(256) = 1600 duels. if you spend 5 sec thinking for each duel, that's 8000 sec ~ two and a half hour. and that's assuming ld(n)*n, when in reality all sorting algorithms need more than that.
unless you already sorted all individual lists and it takes that into accout. don't know how much that would change.
I spent about 1 sec thinking for each duel.
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I think I put quarry somewhere in the top 60. That's not gonna be a common sentiment. Also, my number 1 and number 2 were neither Rebuild nor trashers. Those were basically 3-7, but there are two and only two cards that I can honestly say exceed those.
Care to guess?
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I think I put quarry somewhere in the top 60. That's not gonna be a common sentiment. Also, my number 1 and number 2 were neither Rebuild nor trashers. Those were basically 3-7, but there are two and only two cards that I can honestly say exceed those.
Care to guess?
Cultist and Tournament?
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I think I put quarry somewhere in the top 60. That's not gonna be a common sentiment. Also, my number 1 and number 2 were neither Rebuild nor trashers. Those were basically 3-7, but there are two and only two cards that I can honestly say exceed those.
Care to guess?
Cultist and Tournament?
Explorer and Scavenger?
You could think any card is good...
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I think I put quarry somewhere in the top 60. That's not gonna be a common sentiment. Also, my number 1 and number 2 were neither Rebuild nor trashers. Those were basically 3-7, but there are two and only two cards that I can honestly say exceed those.
Care to guess?
Cultist and Tournament?
Explorer and Scavenger?
You could think any card is good...
Exactly. They might also be Alchemist and Procession, respectively.
In my ranking, I ranked Procession directly below Alchemist. I ranked Alchemist at the position:
One position lower than the difference between where you ranked Quarry and where I ranked it.
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I think I put quarry somewhere in the top 60. That's not gonna be a common sentiment. Also, my number 1 and number 2 were neither Rebuild nor trashers. Those were basically 3-7, but there are two and only two cards that I can honestly say exceed those.
Care to guess?
Cultist and Tournament?
Explorer and Scavenger?
You could think any card is good...
Exactly. They might also be Alchemist and Procession, respectively.
In my ranking, I ranked Procession directly below Alchemist. I ranked Alchemist at the position:
One position lower than the difference between where you ranked Quarry and where I ranked it.
However Quarry doesn't like to be next to Moat. Moat is taller than Procession, but not as tall as Jester. Tunnel does not live in a yellow house and either has a dog or a bird as a pet.
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Goons and Wharf, actually. The second works well in the two most common deck types (engine and BM) while Goons's extra victory points make it something of a soft counter to Rebuild, as well as being dominant in its own right.
Markusin, did you put quarry near the bottom? I can't see Alchemist being too high up there, and if it's at position 100 or so, quarry must be at about 150.
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Goons and Wharf, actually. The second works well in the two most common deck types (engine and BM) while Goons's extra victory points make it something of a soft counter to Rebuild, as well as being dominant in its own right.
Markusin, did you put quarry near the bottom? I can't see Alchemist being too high up there, and if it's at position 100 or so, quarry must be at about 150.
I suspected Goons and Wharf might be on top. Those two are very high on my list.
I really did put Alchemist at about 100. This means I put Quarry at about 160, where it's most likely underrated. It's just, I think there are 160 cards above it.
I don't feel like arguing about it now and don't feel like divulging any more info about my list. Let's save that for when the results are revealed.
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I think I am overrating several cards that I want to be better than they are.
I'm also rating some cards high because they're so much better in the format I mostly play, like Contraband, Counting House, and P. Stone. I'm less upset about that, though.
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About 3-quarters through dueling mode, I was frustrated that my list didn't make any sense. But when I was finished, I was definitely happy with it. I like the way it sorted the cards. I value Harem very high apparently.
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i just wanted to request that when the rankings come out, you allow us to log in to the website and see our rankings placed alongside the final result, preferably with a Spearman rank correlation between the two. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spearman's_rank_correlation_coefficient )
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For future reference, someone at Cornell already created an algorithm that allows people to submit ranked lists and then uses Condorcet's method for generating an aggregate list:
http://civs.cs.cornell.edu/
It will definitely save you a lot of work, and it's a bit of a nicer interface for creating the rankings (though it doesn't have the "duel" option).
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Which particular Condorcet method? There are tons of Condorcet methods.
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Thank you for putting the effort in again, Qvist!
I'm already looking forward to the rankings.
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Is it possible to only rank cards of some price categories, but not all prices? E.g. I've only ranked $5 and $6+ cards.
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Will you be counting partially completed lists? (Like if someone ranked the $2s but not the other costs). I logged on and ranked a couple lists just to see how the thing works and give my opinions, but since I am not really familiar with Guilds, and also haven't played a lot of Dominion since Iso went away, it's probably best if you just ignore my submissions.
Same ! I didnt finish -- please dont count mine
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First of all, I would like to give a big thanks to Qvist for coordinating all of the effort that goes into compiling these lists!! I am looking forward to seeing the final results. I am new to this forum, and relatively new to Dominion. I discovered the physical card game a couple years ago, but only began playing online about a year ago at Goko, and unfortunately never had the experience of playing on Isotropic. I can tell you that as a new player working my way up through first the Adventures and then Multiplayer to learn all the expansions, the information on the Qvist rankings and all of the great strategy descriptions on the cards were absolutely invaluable to me. They have made the game much more interesting and fun, and have made me a better player...although I still have a long way to go to match some of the senior level players on this forum!
So I was happy to be able to participate in giving input for this ranking. I found that the exercise of evaluating the relative worth of the cards really made me think, and more importantly caused me to re-evalutate some of the cards I don't use as often. Overall it was fun and illuminating!!
A couple questions I have are:
1) Will the 2014 rankings just be published by card cost, or will there also be a summary ranking of All Cards as there was in the entry list? I'm not sure how many people actually took the time to rank all the cards independent of cost. I myself did that, but found it a challenging task which took many hours of consideration and rethinking. If I could choose how I would like to see the final result, it would be something like a spreadsheet where you could choose to filter and sort the cards ranked by various attributes such as: Card Cost, All Cards, Expansion Set, etc...and maybe even more discrete attributes like Victory Cards, Attack Cards etc...
2) Will I be able to access my final lists and print or save them after the compilation is complete?
And finally, here are a few of my random thoughts and observations from the ranking process:
- The duel method didn't work as well as I hoped. I went through it all, and the next day I looked at it again and realized many of the rankings didn't make sense. It was not possible to use the duel to get them in the order I felt they belonged, so I went back to manual method, and found that I was waking up with fresh ideas every day that caused me to tweak the order for about 5 days or so.
- Also, during the duels, I found the site was painfully slow (as in minutes) to respond, and I had to reload the page about every 2 or 3 duels. When I did the manual ranking it was not as much of an issue.
- Overall I found most of my rankings to be similar to what had been done in the past, but I had a lot of fun considering where the Guilds cards belong... I love the flexibility of spending coin tokens on future turns when needed, and I think that there are a number of Guilds cards which should rank pretty high. And probably some of the more esoteric Dark Ages cards may move up as well.
But there were a few areas where I probably diverged from the crowd...
- Maybe I'm still too new a player, but overall I have always found the villages to be underrated. Sure, they are not the top ranked cards, but when I consider how many of my top ranked cards are terminal actions, I realized that I would never be able to play more than one of those in a turn if it was not for villages or variants which supply +2 Actions. This resulted in me bumping up the most of the Villages a bit...not to the top, but mostly above the middle of the pack.
- Likewise, although I will often buy a curser or witch variant as soon as possible (because they definitely can be powerful), I sometimes think they are just a little overrated. Too many times I have seen Montebank just become a terminal silver because someone can discard a curse (especially in 3 or 4 person games). I'm just not a fan of Young Witch much at all since often there is a valuable Bane which protects, and sometimes I won't even buy a single one if there is Remake or another trasher in the mix. And Sea Hag is never worth more than one for me unless I have a trasher to get rid of it later. For me, I have found my highest win rates among cursers usually occur with Ill Gotten Gains because of the ability to give out a curse almost every turn as opposed to every deck cycle with a Witch type card. But then I may still have more to learn ; )
- It was hard to rank gainer type cards like Stonemason which may not do a lot during mid-game except perhaps trashing curses, but allow for a quick way to gain 2 cards costing $4 or $5 early in the game, and are very strong end game for trashing Golds to get 2 Duchies. Similar thoughts apply to several of the Hinterlands cards with on-gain effects.
- I probably struggled the most with some of the exotic cards from Dark Ages which I have not played as much. It caused me to go back and rethink whether I should more often be buying cards like Count, Hermit, Procession, Rats etc...
- My personal favorite card? I thought it would be King's Court or Goons or Grand Market, but as of this moment I'm leaning towards Governor...even if perhaps the others may be ranked higher. Yes it gives the opponent a benefit, but the versatility and power of the card is pretty awesome...especially if chained together with some buys.
P.S. In addition to thanking Qvist for his efforts, I would like very much to thank all the good folks on this forum who have contributed to the write-ups and strategy articles for the individual cards. They have been an amazing help to me!
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Me too wants to thank Qvist for the great job, he's doing here. This is a lot work to make these lists, just to inform us about the strenght of the cards and to make us happy ;-)
I really enjoyed the duell-mode. I found it much more easy (and funny!) to compare them like this. In the beginning I was afraid of the result as I saw the ranking beside the duells. But in the end, after making all duells the ranking is as I think it should be.
And I would be happy, if you could show us the ranking with all cards, because some cards a much higher or lower ranked as their costs. And we can't see that if we only get the lists sorted by the costs. If this is possible and not too much work for you, it would be great to have this.
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Frankly spoken, given the method I and probably many people used to sort the cards (duel mode, separated cards by cost), it is just not possible to put together a complete list because there a comparison between cards with different cost never occurred. E.g., if I put Chapel > all other $1-2 cost cards and Ambassador > all other $3 cost cards, there is no way to determine whether Chapel > Ambassador or Ambassador > Chapel.
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Frankly spoken, given the method I and probably many people used to sort the cards (duel mode, separated cards by cost), it is just not possible to put together a complete list because there a comparison between cards with different cost never occurred. E.g., if I put Chapel > all other $1-2 cost cards and Ambassador > all other $3 cost cards, there is no way to determine whether Chapel > Ambassador or Ambassador > Chapel.
I know. But if enough people made the whole list thing, it would work.
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I think you have much to learn young padawan :)
But welcome! And, I used to be like you, until I played against amazing players. I have learned a lot.
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Is it possible to only rank cards of some price categories, but not all prices? E.g. I've only ranked $5 and $6+ cards.
Will you be counting partially completed lists? (Like if someone ranked the $2s but not the other costs). I logged on and ranked a couple lists just to see how the thing works and give my opinions, but since I am not really familiar with Guilds, and also haven't played a lot of Dominion since Iso went away, it's probably best if you just ignore my submissions.
Same ! I didnt finish -- please dont count mine
I'm currently checking the lists. I had a lot of submissions, more than 120. :o
So, I'm inclined to count partially completed lists as most of the lists were completed and the few partially completed lists won't change a lot.
But if you really don't want that I count your submission, just tell me, then I will ignore your votes.
1) Will the 2014 rankings just be published by card cost, or will there also be a summary ranking of All Cards as there was in the entry list? I'm not sure how many people actually took the time to rank all the cards independent of cost. I myself did that, but found it a challenging task which took many hours of consideration and rethinking. If I could choose how I would like to see the final result, it would be something like a spreadsheet where you could choose to filter and sort the cards ranked by various attributes such as: Card Cost, All Cards, Expansion Set, etc...and maybe even more discrete attributes like Victory Cards, Attack Cards etc...
2) Will I be able to access my final lists and print or save them after the compilation is complete?
And finally, here are a few of my random thoughts and observations from the ranking process:
- The duel method didn't work as well as I hoped. I went through it all, and the next day I looked at it again and realized many of the rankings didn't make sense. It was not possible to use the duel to get them in the order I felt they belonged, so I went back to manual method, and found that I was waking up with fresh ideas every day that caused me to tweak the order for about 5 days or so.
- Also, during the duels, I found the site was painfully slow (as in minutes) to respond, and I had to reload the page about every 2 or 3 duels. When I did the manual ranking it was not as much of an issue.
The lists will be published by card cost as before. At the end I will post a list of all the cards ignoring cost.
You can still login on the website to see your ranking.
Well, the duel mode works fine. If you did it until the "no new duel available" message appeared, then the list is finished. This means that the app could calculate a error-free list from your votes. If there's something that looks different than you think it should look like, then you made the wrong decisions in the duels. Well, there was a bug that showed the "no new duel available" message too early, but that should be fixed since a while.
Sorry if the page was slow. In my tests that never ocurred to me. Not sure why that happened to you. Maybe a lot of people voted at the same time, just guessing. Sorry.
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I'm currently checking the lists. I had a lot of submissions, more than 120. :o
That is great news! Well, it probably means more work for you, so possibly not great in that way ::), but I think in regard to Dominion and the community here that is a very positive sign concerning the future.
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Wow, 120 submissions! I'm really looking forward to the lists.
Btw, one comment (feel free to completely ignore it). In the past lists you've focused a lot on outliers in votes. You note what the highest and lowest votes are for each card, and you often also comment on it (for example: this card got so-and-so many #1 votes, but also so one last rank vote). I think these observations have next-to-zero informational content. So some player completely over/under-rates this card, or perhaps they saved a list which was only half-finished (and then forgot to complete it). I'd much rather see the first and third quartile (and perhaps the 10th and 90th percentile).
Other than that, I really enjoy all list. Thanks for making them!
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I'm currently checking the lists. I had a lot of submissions, more than 120. :o
So, I'm inclined to count partially completed lists as most of the lists were completed and the few partially completed lists won't change a lot.
But if you really don't want that I count your submission, just tell me, then I will ignore your votes.
Mine aren't finished yet, but I plan to do so before midnight. If I'm already too late please ignore my votes.
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I never really had a chance to finish the complete lists of cards without costs. Can you please ignore that list, but count all other lists, the ones with costs? Thanks.
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I'm currently checking the lists. I had a lot of submissions, more than 120. :o
So, I'm inclined to count partially completed lists as most of the lists were completed and the few partially completed lists won't change a lot.
But if you really don't want that I count your submission, just tell me, then I will ignore your votes.
Mine aren't finished yet, but I plan to do so before midnight. If I'm already too late please ignore my votes.
No, just continue. I will copy the database at midnight.
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I assume you're refering to German midnight, which would be February 23, 2014, 06:00:00 pm (this time automatically adjusts to whichever time zone setting you are using on the forum)
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Wow, 120 submissions! I'm really looking forward to the lists.
Btw, one comment (feel free to completely ignore it). In the past lists you've focused a lot on outliers in votes. You note what the highest and lowest votes are for each card, and you often also comment on it (for example: this card got so-and-so many #1 votes, but also so one last rank vote). I think these observations have next-to-zero informational content. So some player completely over/under-rates this card, or perhaps they saved a list which was only half-finished (and then forgot to complete it). I'd much rather see the first and third quartile (and perhaps the 10th and 90th percentile).
Other than that, I really enjoy all list. Thanks for making them!
I actually enjoy those. It's not any help with learning about the card, but it still is interesting.
Also, will it accept a list from an unfinished duel mode?
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I assume you're refering to German midnight, which would be February 23, 2014, 06:00:00 pm (this time automatically adjusts to whichever time zone setting you are using on the forum)
Submission deadline is the 23th of February 11:59pm UTC.
2 hours to go
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I'm currently checking the lists. I had a lot of submissions, more than 120. :o
So, I'm inclined to count partially completed lists as most of the lists were completed and the few partially completed lists won't change a lot.
But if you really don't want that I count your submission, just tell me, then I will ignore your votes.
Mine aren't finished yet, but I plan to do so before midnight. If I'm already too late please ignore my votes.
No, just continue. I will copy the database at midnight.
Thanks, I'm done. With the longer lists I found it quite easy to rank the top and the bottom, but quite hard to rank everything in between. What would really have helped me is the option to fix certain cards at certain positions (e.g. I fix the 7 best and 5 worst 5 costs) and rank only the others via your match up system, so that the fixed cards don't show up in the "which card is better?" queries, thus saving quite a bit of time. Maybe something to consider for next year; I think you did a great job organizing this regardless!
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I'm currently checking the lists. I had a lot of submissions, more than 120. :o
So, I'm inclined to count partially completed lists as most of the lists were completed and the few partially completed lists won't change a lot.
But if you really don't want that I count your submission, just tell me, then I will ignore your votes.
Mine aren't finished yet, but I plan to do so before midnight. If I'm already too late please ignore my votes.
Insert random Mine/Mint-joke here :-P
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I have no idea what happened to my lists on your site, some cards are in the right spot but some are completely wrong (Contraband is the third best $5, it should be near the bottom; Soothsayer is second-last and should be near the top). So, please don't count mine. If I have time I may PM you my lists tonight if I can manage to do that before the deadline, but don't count my lists on the site. Thanks!
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I didn't have time to finish. Please do not count mine.
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I didn't have time to finish. Please do not count mine.
same here
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Well, would it help if I extend the deadline?
I already got a couple of messages that someone hasn't finished it yet. It would be sad to ignore all those submissions.
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I haven't finished mine yet. I was thinking it wouldn't get accepted if I hadn't finished it yet.
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I haven't finished mine yet.
How is it possible that there's just one card that you haven't finished ranking?
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I haven't finished mine yet.
How is it possible that there's just one card that you haven't finished ranking?
It's hard to figure out where it goes. Its on play effect and on buy effect are so different that it's hard to tell where to put it.
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uhm i also didn't finish the ranking of the big list (with all cards), so don't count that one. i did finish the one for each prize level though
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I finished some of the price levels, but not the full list... probably easier just to throw mine out entirely
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Well, would it help if I extend the deadline?
I already got a couple of messages that someone hasn't finished it yet. It would be sad to ignore all those submissions.
Yes for me... I could complete my ranking within the next 24 hours... if you are extending the deadline.
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Well, would it help if I extend the deadline?
I already got a couple of messages that someone hasn't finished it yet. It would be sad to ignore all those submissions.
Yes for me... I could complete my ranking within the next 24 hours... if you are extending the deadline.
Same for me. I'll be done shortly, but no later than tomorrow/today because it's 12:01 here.
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New deadline: Friday, 28th of February 11:59pm UTC.
Please be sure to finish your lists until then.
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Just to clarify: you don't have to finish the big list, right? And each list is considered to be "finished" if you either went through the duel mode or clicked on "save" in the alternative ranking mode. On each finished list it displays the No new duel available. To rerank click on a card on the right msg. If it doesn't display it, the list isn't finished, if it does, it is. So if I don't want to finish the big list, I can just not do so and my other lists will still be considered.
Is that correct?
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Just to clarify: you don't have to finish the big list, right? And each list is considered to be "finished" if you either went through the duel mode or clicked on "save" in the alternative ranking mode. On each finished list it displays the No new duel available. To rerank click on a card on the right msg. If it doesn't display it, the list isn't finished, if it does, it is. So if I don't want to finish the big list, I can just not do so and my other lists will still be considered.
Is that correct?
Correct.
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There wasn't a send button, so I don't know if it's been sent...if not, here's the list:
1.) Soothsayer [X]
2.) Quarry [X]
3.) Royal Seal [X]
4.) Smugglers [X]
5.) Mine [X]
6.) Sea Hag [X]
7.) Herbalist [X]
8.) Counting House [X]
9.) Throne Room [X]
10.) Festival [X]
11.) King's Court [X]
12.) Steward [X]
13.) Witch [X]
14.) Marauder [X]
15.) Jester [X]
16.) Squire [X]
17.) Moneylender [X]
18.) Fishing Village [X]
19.) Familiar [X]
20.) Band of Misfits [X]
21.) Mountebank [X]
22.) Noble Brigand [X]
23.) Rebuild [X]
24.) Expand [X]
25.) Fortune Teller [X]
26.) Monument [X]
27.) Highway [X]
28.) Courtyard [X]
29.) Mandarin [X]
30.) Procession [X]
31.) Merchant Ship [X]
32.) Scheme [X]
33.) Smithy [X]
34.) Council Room [X]
35.) Margrave [X]
36.) Pawn [X]
37.) Navigator [X]
38.) Adventurer [X]
39.) Village [X]
40.) Golem [X]
41.) Graverobber [X]
42.) Horse Traders [X]
43.) Rabble [X]
44.) Minion [X]
45.) Remodel [X]
46.) Chancellor [X]
47.) Native Village [X]
48.) Journeyman [X]
49.) Nomad Camp [X]
50.) Bazaar [X]
51.) Hoard [X]
52.) Torturer [X]
53.) Forager [X]
54.) Bureaucrat [X]
55.) Venture [X]
56.) Haven [X]
57.) Scavenger [X]
58.) Baker [X]
59.) Market Square [X]
60.) University [X]
61.) Catacombs [X]
62.) Tournament [X]
63.) Saboteur [X]
64.) Goons [X]
65.) Spy [X]
66.) Laboratory [X]
67.) Oracle [X]
68.) Cellar [X]
69.) Wharf [X]
70.) Ironmonger [X]
71.) Cultist [X]
72.) Counterfeit [X]
73.) Bridge [X]
74.) Urchin [X]
75.) Merchant Guild [X]
76.) Chapel [X]
77.) Herald [X]
78.) Harem [X]
79.) Library [X]
80.) Watchtower [X]
81.) Possession [X]
82.) Explorer [X]
83.) Island [X]
84.) Stash [X]
85.) Farming Village [X]
86.) Tactician [X]
87.) Lighthouse [X]
88.) Woodcutter [X]
89.) Inn [X]
90.) Militia [X]
91.) Border Village [X]
92.) Rogue [X]
93.) Wandering Minstrel [X]
94.) Ambassador [X]
95.) Tribute [X]
96.) Candlestick Maker [X]
97.) Upgrade [X]
98.) Worker's Village [X]
99.) Embassy [X]
100.) Oasis [X]
101.) Alchemist [X]
102.) Scout [X]
103.) Count [X]
104.) Nobles [X]
105.) Trading Post [X]
106.) Death Cart [X]
107.) Secret Chamber [X]
108.) Junk Dealer [X]
109.) Great Hall [X]
110.) Pirate Ship [X]
111.) Apprentice [X]
112.) Outpost [X]
113.) Treasure Map [X]
114.) Sage [X]
115.) Haggler [X]
116.) Moat [X]
117.) Caravan [X]
118.) Ghost Ship [X]
119.) Altar [X]
120.) Market [X]
121.) Envoy [X]
122.) Masquerade [X]
123.) Scrying Pool [X]
124.) Hunting Party [X]
125.) Young Witch [X]
126.) Cache [X]
127.) Vagrant [X]
128.) Contraband [X]
129.) Masterpiece [X]
130.) Bishop [X]
131.) Butcher [X]
132.) Bank [X]
133.) Feodum [X]
134.) Stables [X]
135.) Black Market [X]
136.) Crossroads [X]
137.) Duke [X]
138.) Mystic [X]
139.) Treasury [X]
140.) Lookout [X]
141.) Apothecary [X]
142.) Harvest [X]
143.) Forge [X]
144.) Hamlet [X]
145.) Cartographer [X]
146.) Horn of Plenty [X]
147.) Develop [X]
148.) City [X]
149.) Vault [X]
150.) Beggar [X]
151.) Storeroom [X]
152.) Pillage [X]
153.) Hunting Grounds [X]
154.) Ill-Gotten Gains [X]
155.) Mint [X]
156.) Tunnel [X]
157.) Philosopher's Stone [X]
158.) Bandit Camp [X]
159.) Fool's Gold [X]
160.) Shanty Town [X]
161.) Fairgrounds [X]
162.) Pearl Diver [X]
163.) Swindler [X]
164.) Salvager [X]
165.) Warehouse [X]
166.) Vineyard [X]
167.) Peddler [X]
168.) Duchess [X]
169.) Armory [X]
170.) Thief [X]
171.) Feast [X]
172.) Menagerie [X]
173.) Gardens [X]
174.) Jack of all Trades [X]
175.) Talisman [X]
176.) Stonemason [X]
177.) Conspirator [X]
178.) Loan [X]
179.) Farmland [X]
180.) Coppersmith [X]
181.) Cutpurse [X]
182.) Silk Road [X]
183.) Baron [X]
184.) Workshop [X]
185.) Transmute [X]
186.) Embargo [X]
187.) Walled Village [X]
188.) Remake [X]
189.) Plaza [X]
190.) Wishing Well [X]
191.) Grand Market [X]
192.) Ironworks [X]
193.) Advisor [X]
194.) Poor House [X]
195.) Spice Merchant [X]
196.) Trader [X]
197.) Doctor [X]
198.) Fortress [X]
199.) Mining Village [X]
200.) Rats [X]
Ignored cards
Trade Route [X]
Hermit [X]
Knights [X]
Taxman [X]
Governor [X]
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Okay, finished my list. Pretty happy with it.
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My top 10....
10) King's Court
9) Upgrade
8) Junk Dealer
7) Rebuild
6) Steward
5) Mountebank
4) Chapel
3) Cultist
2) Ambassador
1) Masquerade
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8)
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Are we sharing lists??? I LOVE LISTS!
Overall:
1.) Masquerade [X]
2.) Ambassador [X]
3.) Mountebank [X]
4.) Rebuild [X]
5.) Chapel [X]
6.) Wharf [X]
7.) King's Court [X]
8.) Junk Dealer [X]
9.) Goons [X]
10.) Witch [X]
Bottom 10:
196.) Harvest [X]
197.) Pirate Ship [X]
198.) Taxman [X]
199.) Pearl Diver [X]
200.) Duchess [X]
201.) Thief [X]
202.) Secret Chamber [X]
203.) Transmute [X]
204.) Adventurer [X]
205.) Scout [X]
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i want in!! mh i haven't actually done the big list, but if I did my top 8 would look like this:
1: Mountebank
2. Wharf
3. Rebuild
4. Chapel
5. Fishing Village
6. Ambassador
7. King's Court
8. Masquerade
no just kidding obv. Lookout is #1
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Qvist, I'm not sure if I'll get the list done in time. Don't count my submission unless I've told you that I finished it.
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1.) Rebuild [X]
2.) Tournament [X]
3.) Cultist [X]
4.) Goons [X]
5.) Masquerade [X]
6.) Stonemason [X]
7.) Chapel [X]
8.) Mountebank [X]
9.) Jack of all Trades [X]
10.) Sea Hag [X]
196.) Counting House [X]
197.) Stash [X]
198.) Horn of Plenty [X]
199.) Chancellor [X]
200.) Duchess [X]
201.) Transmute [X]
202.) Contraband [X]
203.) Secret Chamber [X]
204.) Trade Route [X]
205.) Scout [X]
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Was taking a look at the old list, and the Knights stuck out to me:
Card 2013 Ed. 1
Sir Michael 1
Sir Bailey 2
Dame Sylvia 3
Dame Molly 4
Dame Anna 5
Sir Destry 6
Dame Josephine 7
Sir Vander 8
Sir Martin 9
Dame Natalie 10
I have the feeling these are going to change completely, at least if everyone's caught on to Knight games by this point... -Stef- was right all along that Dame Natalie is a contender for the best (surprise surprise huh), and there is just no way Sir Destry is #6!
My list is: Destry > Natalie > Sylvia > Michael > Bailey > Molly > Anna > Martin > Vander > Josephine
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Making some last minute edits:
1.) Ambassador [X]
2.) Masquerade [X]
3.) Goons [X]
4.) Rebuild [X]
5.) Mountebank [X]
6.) Wharf [X]
7.) King's Court [X]
8.) Junk Dealer [X]
9.) Chapel [X]
10.) Steward [X]
Menagerie almost made it to the top 10.
196.) Philosopher's Stone [X]
197.) Thief [X]
198.) Duchess [X]
199.) Woodcutter [X]
200.) Stash [X]
201.) Secret Chamber [X]
202.) Transmute [X]
203.) Harvest [X]
204.) Feast [X]
205.) Scout [X]
Oh hey, Adventurer isn't in my bottom 10.
Was taking a look at the old list, and the Knights stuck out to me:
Card 2013 Ed. 1
Sir Michael 1
Sir Bailey 2
Dame Sylvia 3
Dame Molly 4
Dame Anna 5
Sir Destry 6
Dame Josephine 7
Sir Vander 8
Sir Martin 9
Dame Natalie 10
I have the feeling these are going to change completely, at least if everyone's caught on to Knight games by this point... -Stef- was right all along that Dame Natalie is a contender for the best (surprise surprise huh), and there is just no way Sir Destry is #6!
My list is: Destry > Natalie > Sylvia > Michael > Bailey > Molly > Anna > Martin > Vander > Josephine
Had a tough time with the Knights. I think Sir Vander is better than people give him credit for.
I have: Michael > Bailey > Sylvia > Natalie > Destry > Molly > Anna > Vander > Martin > Josephine
WanderingWinder sure seems to be changing his mind a lot about the card rankings. You know, since we're all him.
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Was taking a look at the old list, and the Knights stuck out to me:
Card 2013 Ed. 1
Sir Michael 1
Sir Bailey 2
Dame Sylvia 3
Dame Molly 4
Dame Anna 5
Sir Destry 6
Dame Josephine 7
Sir Vander 8
Sir Martin 9
Dame Natalie 10
I have the feeling these are going to change completely, at least if everyone's caught on to Knight games by this point... -Stef- was right all along that Dame Natalie is a contender for the best (surprise surprise huh), and there is just no way Sir Destry is #6!
My list is: Destry > Natalie > Sylvia > Michael > Bailey > Molly > Anna > Martin > Vander > Josephine
Oh, I disagree with you, sort of. I think Sir Michael (Discard), Sir Destry (Draw), Sir Bailey (Cantrip), and Dame Molly (Actions) are pretty much a tie for first place. Destry and Michael, because their bonuses are good in a vacuum, and Molly and Bailey because they are the only nonterminal Knights, and intrinsically allow you to play other Knights, which is something you want to do.
Dame Anna, Dame Natalie, and and Dame Sylvia come next, roughly in that order, I would say. They are always fine, occasionally better or worse.
Sir Vander is in a tier by himself--a little worse than the girls but not as bad as Martin and Josephine.
Sir Martin is significantly worse than Vander. I guess occasionally he is the only source of extra buy, but you aren't going to hang onto him for long enough for it to matter. If he's on top, you can open with him, but that's often just a trap. He gives you no economy, meaning your opponent actually has a better shot of buying the next Knight, which is always going to be better than Martin unless it's...
Dame Josephine. The worst Knight by a landslide. She has to survive the game to get any sort of bonus. This just doesn't typically happen, and it's hardly worth it anyway.
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Nik, is that your list of favorite cards, or best cards? Because Spy over Wharf is utter lunacy.
Heck, my list of favorite cards would have Quarry in basically the same spot you have it, but no one in their right mind would put it in the top 10 straight-up best cards. I mean, it's severely board dependent, only truly shining in +buy heavy engines (where it is beautiful).
Spy over Wharf isn't even the biggest issue in that list. Not by a long shot. Is there some sort of mistake?
Herbalist at 7. Chancellor over Goons. It's... random, almost.
My own top 10:
1. Wharf
2. Ambassador
3. Chapel
4. Goons
5. Masquerade
6. Cultist
7. Mountebank
8. King's Court
9. Steward
10. Tournament
And Bottom 10!
196. Spy
197. Adventurer
198. Contraband
199. Harvest
200. Stash
201. Transmute
202. Thief
203. Bureaucrat
204. Philosopher's Stone
205. Scout
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I actaully never previewed the list... :-[
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Hey, it's okay. You can always switch the cards around a little more as you see fit. Still, that list seems kinda off to me. For crying out loud, Goons isn't in the top 60.
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After finishing my individual cost lists last Sunday, I played around a bit with the total list on Monday, leaving all the other lists alone. Checking again just now, I noticed that my $1-4 and $6+ cost lists are completely messed up to the point of being entirely random. Let me quote the 6+ cost one for illustration, kicks and giggles:
1.) Peddler
2.) Harem
3.) Hunting Grounds
4.) Expand
5.) Border Village
6.) Adventurer
7.) Grand Market
8.) Farmland
9.) Bank
10.) Goons
11.) Fairgrounds
12.) Nobles
13.) Hoard
14.) King's Court
15.) Forge
16.) Altar
I don't feel like doing everything from scratch again and I have little confidence in a re-entry being correctly preserved anyway, so please ignore my submission entirely.
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Crud. During an attempt to adjust the ranking of fishing village, I turned my main cards list completely upside-down. There's something funny going on with the ranking system. First Nik, then SheCan'tSayNo, then this. Qvist, I know you've postponed the deadline enough as is, but I really feel we should delay the results until we know what the problem here is.
Farmland is now my 3rd-highest ranked card. That's how bad it is. :o
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After finishing my individual cost lists last Sunday, I played around a bit with the total list on Monday, leaving all the other lists alone. Checking again just now, I noticed that my $1-4 and $6+ cost lists are completely messed up to the point of being entirely random. Let me quote the 6+ cost one for illustration, kicks and giggles:
1.) Peddler
2.) Harem
3.) Hunting Grounds
4.) Expand
5.) Border Village
6.) Adventurer
7.) Grand Market
8.) Farmland
9.) Bank
10.) Goons
11.) Fairgrounds
12.) Nobles
13.) Hoard
14.) King's Court
15.) Forge
16.) Altar
I don't feel like doing everything from scratch again and I have little confidence in a re-entry being correctly preserved anyway, so please ignore my submission entirely.
I don't normally use smilies, but...
Adventurer over Goons :o?
It appears to me that the rankings break down totally when trying to build the total cost list from the bottom up. Either you rank the full list right from the get go and never touch the sub-lists, or you make all your sub-lists and never touch the full list ranking mode. I did the former, so I was fortunate enough to not have these problems.
I don't like all these "ignore my submission" posts that I'm reading here. Dare I ask, is another deadline extension possible?
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I don't normally use smilies, but...
Adventurer over Goons :o?
Goons is mostly a rather weird combination of a very weak 3-cost (Woodcutter) and two decent 4-costs (Militia and Monument), which--don't get me wrong--certainly isn't bad, but at $6 it directly competes with Gold so you'd really expect something at least equally appealing.
Adventurer, when properly played, draws you two Platina, making it a terminal $10; and in the hands of a true expert it can draw two Horns of Plenty which might enable you to double Colony, making the card effectively a "+$22, +2 buys".
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I don't normally use smilies, but...
Adventurer over Goons :o?
Goons is mostly a rather weird combination of a very weak 3-cost (Woodcutter) and two decent 4-costs (Militia and Monument), which--don't get me wrong--certainly isn't bad, but at $6 it directly competes with Gold so you'd really expect something at least equally appealing.
Adventurer, when properly played, draws you two Platina, making it a terminal $10; and in the hands of a true expert it can draw two Horns of Plenty which might enable you to double Colony, making the card effectively a "+$22, +2 buys".
FTFY
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My top 10:
1.) Goons [X]
2.) Rebuild [X]
3.) Mountebank [X]
4.) King's Court [X]
5.) Masquerade [X]
6.) Familiar [X]
7.) Witch [X]
8.) Chapel [X]
9.) Grand Market [X]
10.) Scrying Pool [X]
my bottom 10:
196.) Feast [X]
197.) Adventurer [X]
198.) Great Hall [X]
199.) Counting House [X]
200.) Herbalist [X]
201.) Woodcutter [X]
202.) Duchess [X]
203.) Contraband [X]
204.) Chancellor [X]
205.) Scout [X]
Altogether I'm happy with this list. When I first did the face-offs there were a few cards that looked out of place, so I popped them out with the [X] and usually that put them where they needed to be.
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Ok, here my tops and bottoms. I did the duell-mode, if this is interesting for you...
1.) King's Court [X]
2.) Rebuild [X]
3.) Grand Market [X]
4.) Goons [X]
5.) Possession [X]
6.) Golem [X]
7.) Torturer [X]
8.) Familiar [X]
9.) Bank [X]
10.) Governor [X]
Not sure about Familiar there, but I'm quit happy with the others.
196.) Develop [X]
197.) Beggar [X]
198.) Secret Chamber [X]
199.) Pawn [X]
200.) Vagrant [X]
201.) Transmute [X]
202.) Duchess [X]
203.) Scout [X]
204.) Pearl Diver [X]
205.) Herbalist [X]
And yes, Scout is NOT last one ;-) But maybe he could change with Pearl Diver...
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There wasn't a send button, so I don't know if it's been sent...if not, here's the list:
No need to post it here. I grab the lists directly from the database.
Crud. During an attempt to adjust the ranking of fishing village, I turned my main cards list completely upside-down. There's something funny going on with the ranking system. First Nik, then SheCan'tSayNo, then this. Qvist, I know you've postponed the deadline enough as is, but I really feel we should delay the results until we know what the problem here is.
Farmland is now my 3rd-highest ranked card. That's how bad it is. :o
Darn. That's ... weird. Not sure what is causing this. I will look into it.
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Why should Scout be THE last one ? After all jokes about it, it would be shameful if it were still last (though it may be at least in the bottom 10%, maybe even 5%).
Oh, and I didn't vote, but last year, my favourite cards were Fishing village (#1), Chapel Apprentice Bishop (#2 #3 #4), forgot which one came first, my first attack was Torturer (#7 or something) and King's court was pretty well ranked too. But I don't remember much about the bottom. (except that #156 and #157 was Possession and Black market, because in Dominion, you must build YOUR OWN deck, with cards from the SUPPLY, according to me).
And do you know when last year's rersults will come up ? ^^
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As I wrote, I don't know what happened with Familiar, but I did the duell-mode and want to lat it as it is.
I don't think that Possession is that bad. I really think it is good. Of course, it is not when you look at the costs and want to buy it. Me too, nearly never buy it, because it is so expensive. But the card as it is, is good. You get an extra turn!
I hope I understood the lists right and we shouldn't list their strenght relative to their costs. And if I'm right, I think Possession is ok where it is.
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As I wrote, I don't know what happened with Familiar, but I did the duell-mode and want to lat it as it is.
I don't think that Possession is that bad. I really think it is good. Of course, it is not when you look at the costs and want to buy it. Me too, nearly never buy it, because it is so expensive. But the card as it is, is good. You get an extra turn!
I hope I understood the lists right and we shouldn't list their strenght relative to their costs. And if I'm right, I think Possession is ok where it is.
of course we list strength relative to their cost
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Oh, if this is right, you should not count my full list :-(
The others you can count of course.
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Crud. During an attempt to adjust the ranking of fishing village, I turned my main cards list completely upside-down. There's something funny going on with the ranking system. First Nik, then SheCan'tSayNo, then this. Qvist, I know you've postponed the deadline enough as is, but I really feel we should delay the results until we know what the problem here is.
Farmland is now my 3rd-highest ranked card. That's how bad it is. :o
I think I know what might have happened to you. Maybe it's the same for SCSN.
So, I assume you clicked on the red X on Fishing Village to adjust its ranking.
Well, what it currently does, is the following:
Let's assume you voted that card A is better than B and card B is better than card C. A -> B -> C
Now you delete card B. The two votes (A->B and B->C) get deleted. What I didn't do (as this was a feature I added later) is carrying over the information of A -> C.
I will fix it in the next update.
But, you should be able to recreate the old order by following the duel mode pretty fast as there is only one connection missing (even though the current order seems messed up).
Edit: New update is online.
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Replying to Qvist's last comment. I can't quite figure out how to make the quote work in my comment...
I can confirm that the problem with the cards reverting to random order exists without deleting a card, so the update may not entirely prevent it occurring again. I had my lists revert to random order twice, and I never deleted a card - not a single time. The first time I'm pretty sure it was after I tried to do a duel on a single card from the All Cards list after all my other lists were complete and I was trying to see if the duel could rearrange one card. Afterwards, all lists from $2-$6 plus potions were out of order. The second time I was not making any changes at all. I was merely going into the "Switch Rank Mode" so that I could do a copy/paste of my lists into an Excel spreadsheet to preserve the order of the lists I had completely re-created a 2nd time. The good news was that I made it through all of the lists but one before it happened, but the bad news was I did have to completely redo the $5 list. The other lists I had saved the order, so was able to manually restore them within an hour or so. But to emphasize...this time I was doing NO changes at all...I was just doing copy/paste to preserve the lists. The one thing I might have done that perhaps I should not have was to do a go-back in the browser rather than saving each list (since I was not making any changes I didn't see why they should need to be saved again).
So I had all lists except the All Cards list complete before the 2/28 deadline, and have not touched any of them since. Is the deadline being extended again to allow others to complete their lists, or are the lists closed now?
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I can confirm that the problem with the cards reverting to random order exists without deleting a card, so the update may not entirely prevent it occurring again. I had my lists revert to random order twice, and I never deleted a card - not a single time. The first time I'm pretty sure it was after I tried to do a duel on a single card from the All Cards list after all my other lists were complete and I was trying to see if the duel could rearrange one card. Afterwards, all lists from $2-$6 plus potions were out of order. The second time I was not making any changes at all. I was merely going into the "Switch Rank Mode" so that I could do a copy/paste of my lists into an Excel spreadsheet to preserve the order of the lists I had created. The good news was that I made it through all of the lists but one before it happened, but the bad news was I did have to completely redo the $5 list. The other lists I had saved the order, so was able to manually restore them within an hour or so. But to emphasize...this time I was doing NO changes at all...I was just doing copy/paste to preserve the lists. The one thing I might have done that perhaps I should not have was to do a go-back in the browser rather than saving each list (since I was not making any changes I didn't see why they should need to be saved again).
So I had all lists except the All Cards list complete before the 2/28 deadline, and have not touched any of them since. Is the deadline being extended again to allow others to complete their lists, or are the lists closed now?
Wow, this sounds really strange. Not sure what might cause this. Sorry for this. I'll look into the problem and let you know when I know more.
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While sorting, I realized I rate all of the $2-$4 villages at almost the same place to me...
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I can confirm that the problem with the cards reverting to random order exists without deleting a card, so the update may not entirely prevent it occurring again. I had my lists revert to random order twice, and I never deleted a card - not a single time. The first time I'm pretty sure it was after I tried to do a duel on a single card from the All Cards list after all my other lists were complete and I was trying to see if the duel could rearrange one card. Afterwards, all lists from $2-$6 plus potions were out of order. The second time I was not making any changes at all. I was merely going into the "Switch Rank Mode" so that I could do a copy/paste of my lists into an Excel spreadsheet to preserve the order of the lists I had created. The good news was that I made it through all of the lists but one before it happened, but the bad news was I did have to completely redo the $5 list. The other lists I had saved the order, so was able to manually restore them within an hour or so. But to emphasize...this time I was doing NO changes at all...I was just doing copy/paste to preserve the lists. The one thing I might have done that perhaps I should not have was to do a go-back in the browser rather than saving each list (since I was not making any changes I didn't see why they should need to be saved again).
So I had all lists except the All Cards list complete before the 2/28 deadline, and have not touched any of them since. Is the deadline being extended again to allow others to complete their lists, or are the lists closed now?
Wow, this sounds really strange. Not sure what might cause this. Sorry for this. I'll look into the problem and let you know when I know more.
Couldn't find the problem. It all works fine for me. If anyone encounters something like this in the future, please report in detail and I try to find out what is causing this.
I just did a backup of the database. Evaluation starts now...
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I use Isotropish ranking to weight the submissions
You mentioned using the "Isotropish" ranking to weight the submissions. I assume that you will now be using the Goko Pro ratings...is that correct? Hopefully you have an easy way to somehow extract those Pro ratings for all the people who submitted lists, since the Goko leaderboards don't currently have a search by user name feature. Do you know when you will be pulling the rankings?
Good luck, and thanks again for doing all this work!
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I use Isotropish ranking to weight the submissions
You mentioned using the "Isotropish" ranking to weight the submissions. I assume that you will now be using the Goko Pro ratings...is that correct? Hopefully you have an easy way to somehow extract those Pro ratings for all the people who submitted lists, since the Goko leaderboards don't currently have a search by user name feature. Do you know when you will be pulling the rankings?
Good luck, and thanks again for doing all this work!
I assume he means Isotropish (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/leaderboard/)
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I use Isotropish ranking to weight the submissions
You mentioned using the "Isotropish" ranking to weight the submissions. I assume that you will now be using the Goko Pro ratings...is that correct? Hopefully you have an easy way to somehow extract those Pro ratings for all the people who submitted lists, since the Goko leaderboards don't currently have a search by user name feature. Do you know when you will be pulling the rankings?
Good luck, and thanks again for doing all this work!
I assume he means Isotropish (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/leaderboard/)
This. I already assigned the users to their rankings.
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Ack! I had an internship application due yesterday and I didn't have time to finish my list (I also wasn't sure that the feature was working based on the reports here). Please do not count my list as it makes very little sense right now. I've gotten far enough that generally strong cards are closer to the top, but for example, Minion is #1 right now...
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Mine is still screwed up. Discount it. (sigh)
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Mine is still screwed up. Discount it. (sigh)
I'm guessing you have problems with where that card goes too?
Also, don't count my own submission. I didn't quite finish it.
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Mint is still screwed up. Discount it. (sigh)
FTFY
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Mint is still screwed up. Discount it. (sigh)
FTFY
NO.
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Mint is still screwed up. Discount it. (sigh)
FTFY
NO.
I can't help myself.
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I assume he means Isotropish (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/leaderboard/)
Thanks! I'm new to the forum, and I got into online Dominion with Goko, so I never played on Isotropic, and was not even aware that this Isotropish site was being maintained with different statistics. Takes me back to college stat courses, and I could have a lot of questions about how it is compiled and used for this process, but I would rather just let folks do their work to pull together the new list. Just interested mostly to know how much all the hours I put into my ranking will be weighted, and can't really determine that from the site since it doesn't tell me how the numbers are being applied to this effort. If there are any quick answers that would be great...otherwise I'm content to know that some people have put a lot of time into putting the stats together.
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I assume he means Isotropish (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/leaderboard/)
Thanks! I'm new to the forum, and I got into online Dominion with Goko, so I never played on Isotropic, and was not even aware that this Isotropish site was being maintained with different statistics. Takes me back to college stat courses, and I could have a lot of questions about how it is compiled and used for this process, but I would rather just let folks do their work to pull together the new list. Just interested mostly to know how much all the hours I put into my ranking will be weighted, and can't really determine that from the site since it doesn't tell me how the numbers are being applied to this effort. If there are any quick answers that would be great...otherwise I'm content to know that some people have put a lot of time into putting the stats together.
If you want to know how Isotropish works, check out this thread http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8900.0 It's a variation of TrueSkill.
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If you want to know how Isotropish works, check out this thread http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8900.0 It's a variation of TrueSkill.
Thanks much! The beginning of that dialog covers the basics of the design overview I was looking for, and I'm happy to leave the details of the number crunching to those who enjoy such things...but glad there are folks who do. ; )
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Wow, I'm still a level 41 on that leaderboard! I haven't even been able to access GOKO in 2014 ;D
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Wow, I'm still a level 41 on that leaderboard! I haven't even been able to access GOKO in 2014 ;D
Isotropish is way less sensitive to recent changes than goko. I'm not sure if AI ever implemented gradual rating degradation.
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Wow, I'm still a level 41 on that leaderboard! I haven't even been able to access GOKO in 2014 ;D
Isotropish is way less sensitive to recent changes than goko. I'm not sure if AI ever implemented gradual rating degradation.
I think he purposefully didn't
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Hmmm, so did my submission not get counted because I had never played a pro game? I just played one against a bot, so I'm on the "full" leaderboard now...
Also how heavily are the results weighted by your rank? Is it just a minor factor, or would a new player's ratings basically not count at all?
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Hmmm, so did my submission not get counted because I had never played a pro game? I just played one against a bot, so I'm on the "full" leaderboard now...
Also how heavily are the results weighted by your rank? Is it just a minor factor, or would a new player's ratings basically not count at all?
I posted it somewhere. I weight the votes by level+5 with a mininum level of 0. It's not the best metric, but simple and close enough to get reasonable results.
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Bumping this thread to make the link http://www.qvist.de/dommesh/ more findable (I really like it to compare the lists to my answers).
EDIT: only now realized the link to this thread is in Qvist's signature. Oh well.
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Maybe time to post the remaining 2014 Rating Lists??
- $6 Cards
- Potion Cards
- Prizes
I don't expect many (if any) changes in these groups, but am still interested in seeing if anything did change in player's perceptions.
Maybe next year it might be possible to think about an overall rating list for all cards regardless of price? It would be really nice to see people's thoughts on the relative value of cards regardless of cost. Particularly useful thinking for Potion cards.
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Maybe time to post the remaining 2014 Rating Lists??
- $6 Cards
- Potion Cards
- Prizes
I don't expect many (if any) changes in these groups, but am still interested in seeing if anything did change in player's perceptions.
Maybe next year it might be possible to think about an overall rating list for all cards regardless of price? It would be really nice to see people's thoughts on the relative value of cards regardless of cost. Particularly useful thinking for Potion cards.
you're forgetting knights. and if knights don't change, i'll lose a lot of faith in this community
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Maybe time to post the remaining 2014 Rating Lists??
- $6 Cards
- Potion Cards
- Prizes
I don't expect many (if any) changes in these groups, but am still interested in seeing if anything did change in player's perceptions.
Maybe next year it might be possible to think about an overall rating list for all cards regardless of price? It would be really nice to see people's thoughts on the relative value of cards regardless of cost. Particularly useful thinking for Potion cards.
you're forgetting knights. and if knights don't change, i'll lose a lot of faith in this community
Hate to tell you but the Knights don't change. Their armour is pretty sweaty and smelly right now...
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I think next year Doctor will go down in ranking and Urchin/Mercenary will go up.
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Maybe time to post the remaining 2014 Rating Lists??
- $6 Cards
- Potion Cards
- Prizes
I don't expect many (if any) changes in these groups, but am still interested in seeing if anything did change in player's perceptions.
Maybe next year it might be possible to think about an overall rating list for all cards regardless of price? It would be really nice to see people's thoughts on the relative value of cards regardless of cost. Particularly useful thinking for Potion cards.
you're forgetting knights. and if knights don't change, i'll lose a lot of faith in this community
Knights have been posted long ago:
The Best Knights
[...]
I thought the other lists ($6 etc.) had also already been posted and Qvist just forgot to add links at the OP, but maybe not...
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I've suspected 6 and above hasn't been released yet to allow more time for playing with Prince.
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I've suspected 6 and above hasn't been released yet to allow more time for playing with Prince.
The votes have been cast ages ago, though.
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I've suspected 6 and above hasn't been released yet to allow more time for playing with Prince.
The votes have been cast ages ago, though.
Indeed. And none of the "missing" lists contained any new cards, since Guilds (the only new cards at the time) doesn't have $6+ cards.
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Sorry, I try to post the $6, Potion and Prizes lists soon.
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Sorry, I try to post the $6, Potion and Prizes lists soon.
That's great Qvist - looking forward to them! As silverspawn noted, I did forget to mention the Knights list as well.
I cannot say enough how much the ratings and comments by the experienced players have helped me to understand the game better. As a relatively newer player, it really highlighted for me cards which I was underutilizing and underrating - especially the strategies for some of the Dark Ages cards which were not immediately obvious to me when I first saw them.
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Sorry, I try to post the $6, Potion and Prizes lists soon.
As silverspawn noted, I did forget to mention the Knights list as well.
oops...I see that the 2014 Knights list has already been published in the Forum. But what I see now is that the 2014 Knights list did not make it onto the website, as it still shows the 2013 ratings.
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i for one got confused because it's not in this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10398.0)
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I hope this doesn't count as necro but shouldn't this topic be the one stickied instead of the outdated 2013 one?
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I hope this doesn't count as necro but shouldn't this topic be the one stickied instead of the outdated 2013 one?
Ban! Ban the defiler!
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We're waiting until the new expansion to do another one of these, right?
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We're waiting until the new expansion to do another one of these, right?
Sounds good to me. I think we should do it right after release so that we can see how much perceptions change over the next year.
I wonder how much the playtesters will skew the results.
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(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/56733663.jpg)
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We're waiting until the new expansion to do another one of these, right?
Sounds good to me. I think we should do it right after release so that we can see how much perceptions change over the next year.
I wonder how much the playtesters will skew the results.
I'll rate everything a 10 to throw off the numbers
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(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/56733663.jpg)
Man, I need that hat.
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We're waiting until the new expansion to do another one of these, right?
Sounds good to me. I think we should do it right after release so that we can see how much perceptions change over the next year.
I wonder how much the playtesters will skew the results.
Can we at least wait like a week after its Goko release to get some feel with the cards :P
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We're waiting until the new expansion to do another one of these, right?
Not sure what I should do. If we wait, we have to give also a little bit of time after the new expansion has come out to let everyone gain experience. This means probably late Summer 2015. Not sure if this is worth the wait, especially as we don't know how fast the expansion will come out on Goko.
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We're waiting until the new expansion to do another one of these, right?
Not sure what I should do. If we wait, we have to give also a little bit of time after the new expansion has come out to let everyone gain experience. This means probably late Summer 2015. Not sure if this is worth the wait, especially as we don't know how fast the expansion will come out on Goko.
Guilds was out the same day on Goko, so I'm optimistic there, though obviously there's 400 cards worth of material here rather than the 150 that Guilds has.
I guess the question is, how much utility will we get from another ranking before the new cards come out?
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We're waiting until the new expansion to do another one of these, right?
Not sure what I should do. If we wait, we have to give also a little bit of time after the new expansion has come out to let everyone gain experience. This means probably late Summer 2015. Not sure if this is worth the wait, especially as we don't know how fast the expansion will come out on Goko.
Guilds was out the same day on Goko, so I'm optimistic there, though obviously there's 400 cards worth of material here rather than the 150 that Guilds has.
I guess the question is, how much utility will we get from another ranking before the new cards come out?
Exactly. Give it a week/month after it comes out on Goko. By that time, we'll have a much better idea of Guilds cards, and we'll just be randomly guessing on the new ones, which is what always happens anyway.
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We're waiting until the new expansion to do another one of these, right?
Not sure what I should do. If we wait, we have to give also a little bit of time after the new expansion has come out to let everyone gain experience. This means probably late Summer 2015. Not sure if this is worth the wait, especially as we don't know how fast the expansion will come out on Goko.
Guilds was out the same day on Goko, so I'm optimistic there, though obviously there's 400 cards worth of material here rather than the 150 that Guilds has.
I guess the question is, how much utility will we get from another ranking before the new cards come out?
However, Goko got Guilds in advance to work with. Donald has said that they might not get the new set early because Jay worries about leaks, so Goko might not see the cards until we see the cards which means no head start. It took them a month just to implement Prince which they did not know existed until its release.
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However, Goko got Guilds in advance to work with. Donald has said that they might not get the new set early because Jay worries about leaks, so Goko might not see the cards until we see the cards which means no head start. It took them a month just to implement Prince which they did not know existed until its release.
MF (not Goko) would like to get the cards in advance and have the new set online the same day it comes out in stores. I don't know yet if that will happen but it has yet to be ruled out.
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However, Goko got Guilds in advance to work with. Donald has said that they might not get the new set early because Jay worries about leaks, so Goko might not see the cards until we see the cards which means no head start. It took them a month just to implement Prince which they did not know existed until its release.
MF (not Goko) would like to get the cards in advance and have the new set online the same day it comes out in stores. I don't know yet if that will happen but it has yet to be ruled out.
If he's really worried about leakes he could also just tell them all the new concepts rather then actual cards (maybe with a few fake examples).
After you've got that coded it can't be more then a day to implement the actual cards, and perhaps a couple more to test it all.
(ok, that's the last assumption I'll ever make about goko code)
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That was a joke, right?
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If he's really worried about leakes he could also just tell them all the new concepts rather then actual cards (maybe with a few fake examples).
After you've got that coded it can't be more then a day to implement the actual cards, and perhaps a couple more to test it all.
(ok, that's the last assumption I'll ever make about goko code)
It wouldn't possibly do the trick for the AI. I mean, let's say the set is Intrigue. You explain choose one/two and action-victory/treasure-victory and pass and name a card and cost-modifying. They can get some of the code to handle those things up and running. But that doesn't set them up to have good AI for Pawn or Great Hall or Masquerade or Wishing Well or Bridge.
I don't know if Jay is worried about leaks or not. Goko leaked something, that is where the worry would come from. Jay was displeased. But obv. it's good to have the set come out online the same day. And it's hard to say just what the effect of a leak is, especially a late leak like this would presumably be.
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Goko leaked something, that is where the worry would come from. Jay was displeased. But obv. it's good to have the set come out online the same day. And it's hard to say just what the effect of a leak is, especially a late leak like this would presumably be.
Goko leaked something?
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Goko leaked something, that is where the worry would come from. Jay was displeased. But obv. it's good to have the set come out online the same day. And it's hard to say just what the effect of a leak is, especially a late leak like this would presumably be.
Goko leaked something?
Yup. Dark Ages cards. To the beta testers.
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Personally, given how long we might wait for the new expansion and how much I enjoy the card rankings, I'm fine with us doing an early 2015 ranking before the new set is released and then another afterward. The real reason not to do this is that it would double the workload for Qvist, and I'm pretty sure he has other things to do with his life than entertain us.
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Goko leaked something, that is where the worry would come from. Jay was displeased. But obv. it's good to have the set come out online the same day. And it's hard to say just what the effect of a leak is, especially a late leak like this would presumably be.
Goko leaked something?
Yup. Dark Ages cards. To the beta testers.
I thought it was to everybody.
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Goko leaked something, that is where the worry would come from. Jay was displeased. But obv. it's good to have the set come out online the same day. And it's hard to say just what the effect of a leak is, especially a late leak like this would presumably be.
Goko leaked something?
Yup. Dark Ages cards. To the beta testers.
I thought it was to everybody.
It wasn't released to the public then, I don't think. I seem to remember a certain amount of clamor for me to post more screenshots.
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On the topic of the lists, I have to say I'm looking forward to the remaining entries in all the various lists that are still unfinished. I've been compiling all of them and I'm hoping to do some basic data mining to see what I can see.
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Goko leaked something, that is where the worry would come from. Jay was displeased. But obv. it's good to have the set come out online the same day. And it's hard to say just what the effect of a leak is, especially a late leak like this would presumably be.
Goko leaked something?
Yah, but it was just a few days before DA officially released. I think it was about 3 days or so before Gen Con or wherever the set was released at.
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Goko leaked something, that is where the worry would come from. Jay was displeased. But obv. it's good to have the set come out online the same day. And it's hard to say just what the effect of a leak is, especially a late leak like this would presumably be.
Goko leaked something?
Yah, but it was just a few days before DA officially released. I think it was about 3 days or so before Gen Con or wherever the set was released at.
There had already been previews, which had been early *because* of leak fears.
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I guess I'm being super naïve here, but could someone please explain why leaked cards are such a big deal?
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I guess I'm being super naïve here, but could someone please explain why leaked cards are such a big deal?
I guess they don't want people to know what is in the set prior to release.
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There had already been previews, which had been early *because* of leak fears.
They were just a few days early - they were the week prior to the con, with no overlap, rather than the week leading up to the con, ending the day before the con (cons typically start on Wednesdays or Thursdays). This had been because a publisher had figured, close enough, and let whatever card information out a few days early. So the last couple previews were spoiled.
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I guess I'm being super naïve here, but could someone please explain why leaked cards are such a big deal?
It's not so clear how much it matters, depending on how far in advance it is. The smart move is probably to try to keep the sets a secret though. Wizards of the Coast's stance is, that they will drum up interest in a Magic set better themselves, via previews, than via uncontrolled leaks. And they believe this so much that they have sued people over it. I feel like, they have done this math; probably the leaks are actually bad.
It seems better to have information about a set show up right around when people can buy it. They read the spoilers, are excited over the awesome new stuff, and then there's the set, available for purchase. If the leak is way in advance, they aren't maintaining that excitement, and you have no tool for building it back up. A lot of people were buying however much of the Magic set anyway, or were buying that Dominion set anyway, but you know, I can see it having a negative effect. The new set is more exciting if you didn't read the cards 6 months ago, and if you don't buy every Dominion expansion, that could make the difference. Then too, if it's spoiled in advance, people have proxied the cards, simulated the cards, found whatever combos. You don't get to be the person on your block who found whatever obvious trick.
So anyway I personally think a Dominion set would like to be spoiled pretty close to release. If it were say two weeks early, that wouldn't matter much; it would just spoil the previews. The previews seem like a good way to promote the sets though; show up each day and find out about more cool stuff, then talk about it, turn it over in your mind, in manageable chunks. So it's probably better for us if those aren't spoiled either.
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Everyone here is speaking about beta-testers. (How) am I able to become a beta-tester for new cards?
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Everyone here is speaking about beta-testers. (How) am I able to become a beta-tester for new cards?
If you are talking about for Dominion Online, in the past they have contacted certain users when they wanted people to test.
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I guess I'm being super naïve here, but could someone please explain why leaked cards are such a big deal?
I guess they don't want people to know what is in the set prior to release.
I can't tell if you're serious... or... but tautology...
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Everyone here is speaking about beta-testers. (How) am I able to become a beta-tester for new cards?
By winning the Dominion Lottery. Thing is, I don't know how to buy tickets for it.
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Is there any reason that the Prizes do not have their own results thread? 2013 had those results posted, and Prizes are listed here as if they were going to have their own thread, but there's nothing there. I tried googling and got nothing.
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Is there any reason that the Prizes do not have their own results thread? 2013 had those results posted, and Prizes are listed here as if they were going to have their own thread, but there's nothing there. I tried googling and got nothing.
Qvist never posted them; he's a busy guy.
The order is either Followers > Steed > Princess > Bag > Diadem or Followers > Princess > Steed > Bag > Diadem depending on how right the voters were when this was run.
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Is there any reason that the Prizes do not have their own results thread? 2013 had those results posted, and Prizes are listed here as if they were going to have their own thread, but there's nothing there. I tried googling and got nothing.
Qvist never posted them; he's a busy guy.
The order is either Followers > Steed > Princess > Bag > Diadem or Followers > Princess > Steed > Bag > Diadem depending on how right the voters were when this was run.
I find myself getting Diadem more these days (perhaps more than Bag of Gold), mostly when nobody else revealed a Province and I want an immediate injection of cash.
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Is there any reason that the Prizes do not have their own results thread? 2013 had those results posted, and Prizes are listed here as if they were going to have their own thread, but there's nothing there. I tried googling and got nothing.
Qvist never posted them; he's a busy guy.
The order is either Followers > Steed > Princess > Bag > Diadem or Followers > Princess > Steed > Bag > Diadem depending on how right the voters were when this was run.
I would guess it's the less right order.
I find myself getting Diadem more these days (perhaps more than Bag of Gold), mostly when nobody else revealed a Province and I want an immediate injection of cash.
True, I think that Diadem is definitely better than Bag of Gold. It's not a very popular opinion, though.
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Is there any reason that the Prizes do not have their own results thread? 2013 had those results posted, and Prizes are listed here as if they were going to have their own thread, but there's nothing there. I tried googling and got nothing.
Oops. I never noticed that I forgot that.
The order was:
1. Followers 95.5%
2. Trusty Steed 73.2%
3. Princess 55.5%
4. Diadem 14.1%
5. Bag of Gold 11.9%