Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Tournaments and Events => Dominion League => Topic started by: -Stef- on January 30, 2014, 09:51:19 am

Title: Dominion League?
Post by: -Stef- on January 30, 2014, 09:51:19 am
Hi everyone,


The intention of this post is to find out how people would feel about a Dominion League.
I've thought about it for a while and I think I would structure it like this, although many parameters are open for discussion:

Although I have nothing against the current Gokodom tournaments (in fact, I love them, many thanks to Kirian) I think I would prefer this. I would particularly like the following advantages:

Curious to find out how the rest of you think about it, so please let me know in a reply.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: RTT on January 30, 2014, 10:02:39 am
I guess Stef just wants another competition where he can be #1 :P

but seriously that sounds pretty good. I just would like to have bigger divisions and also longer seasons. like 12 players and 3 months at minimum. But thats just personal preference.

Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Ozle on January 30, 2014, 10:07:02 am
I think you'll face a problem towards the end where people know they cant get promoted or demoted so there's very little incentive to play that game. Which would mean you would need some sort of penalties...


If you're #2, #5 or #6, you get to play a one-on-one match 'first to 4 wins' for promotion/demotion.
If you're #3 or #4, you just stay where you are.

Not quite sure I understand this bit.
Does 5 play 6 to see who is demoted.
Who does 2 play?


I love the idea of the league, to see who can pull out wins at key times.
And #1 at the end should be the winner, no finals.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Awaclus on January 30, 2014, 10:07:40 am
I think this is a cool idea.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Kirian on January 30, 2014, 10:09:34 am
Interesting, I like it!  Kind of a King of the Hill style game, but enough different from a plain leaderboard to be interesting.  The flexibility of scheduling is definitely a plus as well, and it seems that having a division with 6 or 7 wouldn't be a terrible problem, though you'd have to work out a different promotion/demotion scheme.

As a tie-breaker criterion I would recommend the match between the two players who are tied, which is easy enough to figure out.

Let me see if I understand the playoff scheme, though.  So at the end of the round:

B-1-2nd plays B-2-2nd, winner is promoted, loser stays.
B-1-5th plays B-2-5th, and B1-6th plays B-2-6th, in each case winner stays, loser is demoted.

And in the A division, 1-4 stay, 5 and 6 have a playoff to see who falls, 7 and 8 automatically fall.

So basically three players switch between A and B each iteration; six between B and C; and so forth?
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: hsiale on January 30, 2014, 10:30:08 am
Let me see if I understand the playoff scheme, though.  So at the end of the round:

B-1-2nd plays B-2-2nd, winner is promoted, loser stays.
B-1-5th plays B-2-5th, and B1-6th plays B-2-6th, in each case winner stays, loser is demoted.
I think it should rather work this way:
Level X has 2^(X-1) people at 5th places and further 2^(X-1) people at 6th places. Level X+1 has 2^X people at 2nd places (because level X+1 has twice as many groups). At the end of the season people from first group (5s and 6s) are randomly paired against people from 2nd group. Each pair plays a match. If the player from 5th or 6th place wins, he defended his place and both players stay where they were the previous season. If the player from 2nd place wins, he won promotion and they switch groups.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Eevee on January 30, 2014, 10:35:21 am
I think you'll face a problem towards the end where people know they cant get promoted or demoted so there's very little incentive to play that game. Which would mean you would need some sort of penalties..
Surrendering more than say one match per season sounds like good grounds for disqualification from the league.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on January 30, 2014, 10:54:00 am
This sounds like a really awesome idea. Would you be willing to organize the whole thing yourself or would you ask some member(s) of the community to step forward?
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: AdamH on January 30, 2014, 11:44:58 am
I love me some tournaments and I would probably participate in every one I can find, but this one seems really exciting!
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: SCSN on January 30, 2014, 12:25:15 pm
I guess Stef just wants another competition where he can be #1 :P

I rather thought it was a meek attempt to avoid elimination ;)

I like the idea, count me in!
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Qvist on January 30, 2014, 12:57:42 pm
AFAIK there was a f.DS league and it died because of too many dropouts.
Dropouts have to be handled well, that's the key, not sure how though. Maybe only allow f.DS regulars in and all others have to qualify through a special division just to guarantee regular participation. I just don't want to join a league where half of the games are cancelled.

Other than this, I like the idea and love to take part as fodder to other players.
Regarding the format, I don't quite get the idea of promotion/relegation matches, can you explain the use of them, Stef? Because I'm not a fan of them. It adds extra tension, but I don't think that's needed in a league environment.

I'm also not sure about the size of the leagues, but the suggested 8-12 participants sound good.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: JOG on January 30, 2014, 01:12:43 pm
Sounds great.  I would suggest shorter cycles.  More movement between divisions would add interest and excitement.  And, it could be frustrating to play certain members regularly for a few months, have a few bad games, and then have to wait 2 months to play the members you're used to playing.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: SCSN on January 30, 2014, 01:25:38 pm
Sounds great.  I would suggest shorter cycles.  More movement between divisions would add interest and excitement.  And, it could be frustrating to play certain members regularly for a few months, have a few bad games, and then have to wait 2 months to play the members you're used to playing.

When you feel like you're playing below your level you can set yourself challenges like trying out really retarded stuff and still make it work. Well, often it won't, and then you're stuck for another 2 months, but it's a great learning experience.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Ozle on January 30, 2014, 01:48:39 pm

B-1-2nd plays B-2-2nd, winner is promoted, loser stays.
B-1-5th plays B-2-5th, and B1-6th plays B-2-6th, in each case winner stays, loser is demoted.

And in the A division, 1-4 stay, 5 and 6 have a playoff to see who falls, 7 and 8 automatically fall.

So basically three players switch between A and B each iteration; six between B and C; and so forth?

Ahh, Gotcha, didnt see the two divisions bit.

Although I would think B2-5 should play B1-6 and vice versa, otherwise you are rewarding the player who came 5th instead of 6th with a harder match in theory.



Surrendering more than say one match per season sounds like good grounds for disqualification from the league.

And the trouble with penalising dropouts with demotion is sometimes it can be hard to organise a game with people, what happens if a league has two of those people and you struggle to play them both Eevee, you have now failed two games and are disqualified

How is it possible to tell whose fault the game didnt get played?
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: -Stef- on January 30, 2014, 05:26:00 pm
Great to see so many people enthusiastic about the concept. I'll try to answer some questions.


Regarding the format, I don't quite get the idea of promotion/relegation matches, can you explain the use of them, Stef? Because I'm not a fan of them. It adds extra tension, but I don't think that's needed in a league environment.
hsiale got it right, and I'm sorry about my way too cryptic explanation.
The idea is that #1 gets promotion unconditional
#7 and #8 get demotion unconditional
#5 could get a demotion, and #2 could get a promotion: they play for it one on one
#6 could get a demotion, and #2 could get a promotion: they play for it one on one
(Since there are twice as many divisions one level lower, there will be two #2's available. #5 gets to choose who he plays.)

I think you'll face a problem towards the end where people know they cant get promoted or demoted so there's very little incentive to play that game. Which would mean you would need some sort of penalties...
I'm strongly against penalties unless absolutely necessary. This is why I included this system for promotion/demotion matches. It matters if you end up #1, #2, (#3 or #4), #5, #6, (#7 or #8). Although still possible, it's not very likely you'll be sure of your final ranking before the last match(es) are played. There is one important exception to this case: the lowest division(s). There only #1 and #2 are special, since you can't demote anyway. Then again, the bottom divisions automatically function as some kind of...
AFAIK there was a f.DS league and it died because of too many dropouts.
Dropouts have to be handled well, that's the key, not sure how though. Maybe only allow f.DS regulars in and all others have to qualify through a special division just to guarantee regular participation. I just don't want to join a league where half of the games are cancelled.
... buffer to get into the divisions with the more serious players, who already have shown the commitment to actually play out the games they scheduled.

Surrendering more than say one match per season sounds like good grounds for disqualification from the league.

And the trouble with penalising dropouts with demotion is sometimes it can be hard to organise a game with people, what happens if a league has two of those people and you struggle to play them both Eevee, you have now failed two games and are disqualified

How is it possible to tell whose fault the game didnt get played?
For these kind of problems, no formal rules will exist. In stead we'll go for the common sense / judgement of the 'league organizing committee' (whomever that may be). Usually it's clear who is trying to get the match scheduled and who is completely non-responsive. If both players are willing, and you have 7 weeks available, I'm pretty sure you'll manage.

And #1 at the end should be the winner, no finals.
I think I agree with you.

I like the idea, count me in!
Just to be clear: no counting has started yet. I would definitely not start this before Gokodom 3 ends. But great to hear you would be in.

This sounds like a really awesome idea. Would you be willing to organize the whole thing yourself or would you ask some member(s) of the community to step forward?
Still in doubt here. Someone stepping forward is always good, but I wouldn't accept just about everybody.
No matter what, I'd like this thing to be organized by >1 person.

I just would like to have bigger divisions and also longer seasons. like 12 players and 3 months at minimum. But thats just personal preference.
If a lot of people feel this way I'd reconsider, but for me 8 is already high. I was also considering 6 for a while.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Voltaire on January 30, 2014, 05:30:21 pm
This concept sounds fantastic, and hopefully would hit a sweet spot for people like me whose availability is sporadic enough it's hard to commit to a short-term tournament.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: markusin on January 30, 2014, 09:14:33 pm
This sounds like a really cool way to find opponents at your level and hopefully have friendly chats with them too. It sounds like a big time commitment on the part of the organizer. Also, how would it handle players who wish to drop out of the league?
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Emeric on January 31, 2014, 05:33:04 am
Very nice idea.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Qvist on January 31, 2014, 06:15:10 am
Regarding the format, I don't quite get the idea of promotion/relegation matches, can you explain the use of them, Stef? Because I'm not a fan of them. It adds extra tension, but I don't think that's needed in a league environment.
hsiale got it right, and I'm sorry about my way too cryptic explanation.
The idea is that #1 gets promotion unconditional
#7 and #8 get demotion unconditional
#5 could get a demotion, and #2 could get a promotion: they play for it one on one
#6 could get a demotion, and #2 could get a promotion: they play for it one on one
(Since there are twice as many divisions one level lower, there will be two #2's available. #5 gets to choose who he plays.)

Sorry, but I think my question was misunderstood. I got the idea of the relegation matches, but what is the intention behind them? Why not just promote the first and demote #7 and #8. Why do the #2 and #5 and #6 all have to play relegation matches? I just don't like when after a league all comes down to one single game. Either promote (demote) only 1 (2) in each league or do it with 2 (4) right away.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: yed on January 31, 2014, 06:35:04 am
Regarding the format, I don't quite get the idea of promotion/relegation matches, can you explain the use of them, Stef? Because I'm not a fan of them. It adds extra tension, but I don't think that's needed in a league environment.
hsiale got it right, and I'm sorry about my way too cryptic explanation.
The idea is that #1 gets promotion unconditional
#7 and #8 get demotion unconditional
#5 could get a demotion, and #2 could get a promotion: they play for it one on one
#6 could get a demotion, and #2 could get a promotion: they play for it one on one
(Since there are twice as many divisions one level lower, there will be two #2's available. #5 gets to choose who he plays.)

Sorry, but I think my question was misunderstood. I got the idea of the relegation matches, but what is the intention behind them? Why not just promote the first and demote #7 and #8. Why do the #2 and #5 and #6 all have to play relegation matches? I just don't like when after a league all comes down to one single game. Either promote (demote) only 1 (2) in each league or do it with 2 (4) right away.

I like it how Stef proposed it. Because only promoting #1 is not enough and demoting 4 people (1/2 of a league, so that you can promote 2) is too much.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: yed on January 31, 2014, 06:38:12 am
Also the 8 people groups at same league level (2nd and more) can be somehow shuffled together so that you play with different people each season.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Davio on January 31, 2014, 07:03:22 am
Also the 8 people groups at same league level (2nd and more) can be somehow shuffled together so that you play with different people each season.
Nah, you should just have timezone divisions to make scheduling easier.

I.E:

- Division A would be essentially a "World" division, no way around it
- Division B could be divided roughly into Europe/Africa and USA/Asia/Oceania
- There are 4 Division C's, so these will be mostly people in the same timezones, not more than 3 hours apart
Etc...

The fun part about having regional divisions is that you could choose to play your match in real life if you wanted to. :D
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Emeric on January 31, 2014, 09:04:51 am
A few question about the league :
-How do you take care of new player (specially strong player who decide to integrate the league later)
-How do you take care of player who is absent for a long period (I want to go three month in tuvalu and don't know if I will find any connection so I prefer not play next season) ?
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: -Stef- on January 31, 2014, 10:20:26 am
Sorry, but I think my question was misunderstood. I got the idea of the relegation matches, but what is the intention behind them? Why not just promote the first and demote #7 and #8. Why do the #2 and #5 and #6 all have to play relegation matches? I just don't like when after a league all comes down to one single game. Either promote (demote) only 1 (2) in each league or do it with 2 (4) right away.
I want as many rankings as possible to be 'special' in the end from a perspective of promotion/demotion. Using 5 categories (promotion, conditional promotion, nothing, conditional demotion, demotion) in stead of 3 increases the chance that your last match(es) will still matter for the category you end up in. This decreases the chance you're unwilling to play them. That, and I think it's more fun this way.

Sounds great.  I would suggest shorter cycles.  More movement between divisions would add interest and excitement.  And, it could be frustrating to play certain members regularly for a few months, have a few bad games, and then have to wait 2 months to play the members you're used to playing.
I play in a bridge competition, and we're playing almost exactly the same teams this year as last year. I actually really enjoy that part - in stead of playing new people every time we don't know, we can now try to do better then last year and win from those !%@# that cost us promotion last time around.
Anyway, assuming you'll stay in the same division as last time, from your 7 opponents 3 would be new for sure, 3 could be new and 1 would be the same for sure. Doesn't really sound like playing the same people over and over again to me.

Also, how would it handle players who wish to drop out of the league?
A few question about the league :
-How do you take care of new player (specially strong player who decide to integrate the league later)
-How do you take care of player who is absent for a long period (I want to go three month in tuvalu and don't know if I will find any connection so I prefer not play next season) ?
As I said, no formal rules will exist. The organizing committee will off course follow certain guidelines:

- Division A would be essentially a "World" division, no way around it
- Division B could be divided roughly into Europe/Africa and USA/Asia/Oceania
- There are 4 Division C's, so these will be mostly people in the same timezones, not more than 3 hours apart
Etc...

The fun part about having regional divisions is that you could choose to play your match in real life if you wanted to. :D
Yes that sounds like a good plan.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: TheMirrorMan on January 31, 2014, 10:33:06 am
Very exciting idea. I'm in!
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Qvist on January 31, 2014, 11:04:13 am
Sorry, but I think my question was misunderstood. I got the idea of the relegation matches, but what is the intention behind them? Why not just promote the first and demote #7 and #8. Why do the #2 and #5 and #6 all have to play relegation matches? I just don't like when after a league all comes down to one single game. Either promote (demote) only 1 (2) in each league or do it with 2 (4) right away.
I want as many rankings as possible to be 'special' in the end from a perspective of promotion/demotion. Using 5 categories (promotion, conditional promotion, nothing, conditional demotion, demotion) in stead of 3 increases the chance that your last match(es) will still matter for the category you end up in. This decreases the chance you're unwilling to play them. That, and I think it's more fun this way.

I'm not a big fan of relegation matches, but I see what you are trying to achieve with this. For me every rank counts and I would play every match with the same "passion" no matter if it would be for rank #1 or rank #4. But I guess not everyone would do that.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Monsieur X on January 31, 2014, 11:05:48 am
I like your idea Stef. A dominion League coud be great!

I 'm not so enthusiastic about matches for demotion/promotion. I dont like when there are mix between league and "one match decision".
And also it can be very difficult to go in the better division.

Why not putting more players in each division (maybe 10) and only one division for each level?

For example

Divison 1  10 players    Last #9 #10 demotion
Division 2  10 players    #1 and #2 promotion    #9 #10 demotion
Division 3 10 players   the same
...

Championships would be more challenging. I dont know for other players, but  i prefer to play in division 3 with 2 promotions, than in one of the two divisions 2 with less possibilities to go on division 1.

I dont know if you understand my point of view,  my english is not very good


Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: yed on January 31, 2014, 11:21:43 am
Why not putting more players in each division (maybe 10) and only one division for each level?

For example

Divison 1  10 players    Last #9 #10 demotion
Division 2  10 players    #1 and #2 promotion    #9 #10 demotion
Division 3 10 players   the same
...

Championships would be more challenging. I dont know for other players, but  i prefer to play in division 3 with 2 promotions, than in one of the two divisions 2 with less possibilities to go on division 1.
I don't like this because if 100 people participate, new player would need 10 seasons (2 years) to get to the top. And with 200 people it is 4 years.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Kirian on January 31, 2014, 11:40:51 am
Maybe the way to reconcile the last few posts is just to demote/promote more people?  5 to 8 always fall, 1 and 2 always get promoted.  That gets rid of all the extra matches, though it does cause a higher churn rate.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Voltaire on January 31, 2014, 11:42:44 am
I personally think the original proposal strikes the right balance.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Davio on February 01, 2014, 03:27:15 am
Will we do the initial seeding based on Isotropish ranking?

And we might as well start a sign-up topic just to see how many divisions we're actually talking about.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Jimmmmm on February 01, 2014, 03:48:16 am
/in
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: soulnet on February 01, 2014, 07:28:13 am
Also the 8 people groups at same league level (2nd and more) can be somehow shuffled together so that you play with different people each season.
Nah, you should just have timezone divisions to make scheduling easier.

I.E:

- Division A would be essentially a "World" division, no way around it
- Division B could be divided roughly into Europe/Africa and USA/Asia/Oceania
- There are 4 Division C's, so these will be mostly people in the same timezones, not more than 3 hours apart
Etc...

The fun part about having regional divisions is that you could choose to play your match in real life if you wanted to. :D

I like the regional divisions, like in the Davis Cup, but I don't like your view of what the world is. Where did the entire American continent went, besides the US?
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: soulnet on February 01, 2014, 07:33:28 am
Notice that the extra promotion matches would not have the flexible scheduling the rest of the league has, because I can't imagine a 7 week stop in between seasons to schedule promotion/demotion matches. I think any of the ideas without the promotion/demotion extra games are better because of this. Also, handling the matching of the promotion/demotion games seems a lot of extra organizing work for little reward.

My proposal would be 9 people in each division, 2 promote, 3 stay, 4 demote. I think it is better to have a larger number of non-demotes than demotes, and while in this proposal is only slightly higher, is the best I could do while maintaining small divisions and at least 2 promotions.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: lespeutere on February 01, 2014, 11:59:30 am
How do you arrive at 7 week stops if there are only single matches played for ~motion?

A 2-3 weeks break between seasons is fine and I don't see that much of a problem scheduling a single match within this period.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: soulnet on February 01, 2014, 12:14:19 pm
How do you arrive at 7 week stops if there are only single matches played for ~motion?

A 2-3 weeks break between seasons is fine and I don't see that much of a problem scheduling a single match within this period.

It was mentioned as a good property of the format that the scheduling was comfortable because there was a 7 weeks window to schedule each match. Unless there is that time in between regular seasons, scheduling promotion matches would be more difficult, and for some unfortunate people, it may be exactly in their busy time (family vacations away from the computer, deadlines, whatever).

Making the gap longer makes this scheduling easier, but it also leaves a lot of people that do not play promotion matches without any kind of match for a long time. I would have each season starting immediately after the previous ended. Since there is a large time window to schedule matches, people that prefer to have breaks can have one or two weeks off and schedule their 7 matches in the rest of the window.

(replace all the 7 by N-1 if N not equal to 8 is chosen for division size)
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Kirian on February 01, 2014, 12:20:59 pm
Also, the divisions shouldn't be A-B-etc.  They should be

Platinum (8 players)
Gold (16 players)
Silver (32 players)
Copper (64 players)
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: SCSN on February 01, 2014, 12:24:23 pm
I'd prefer:

King's Court
Throne Room
Great Hall
Secret Chamber
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: lespeutere on February 01, 2014, 03:23:35 pm
It was mentioned as a good property of the format that the scheduling was comfortable because there was a 7 weeks window to schedule each match. Unless there is that time in between regular seasons, scheduling promotion matches would be more difficult, and for some unfortunate people, it may be exactly in their busy time (family vacations away from the computer, deadlines, whatever).

Making the gap longer makes this scheduling easier, but it also leaves a lot of people that do not play promotion matches without any kind of match for a long time. I would have each season starting immediately after the previous ended. Since there is a large time window to schedule matches, people that prefer to have breaks can have one or two weeks off and schedule their 7 matches in the rest of the window.

Fair enough, breaks or no breaks seems to be open to debate then. I'd prefer short breaks just to not have one (seemingly) endless thing, but separate seasons.

Also, the divisions shouldn't be A-B-etc.  They should be

Platinum (8 players)
Gold (16 players)
Silver (32 players)
Copper (64 players)

Shame on you, Alchemist! Where is that potion?
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Davio on February 02, 2014, 05:40:54 am
Okay, we have 8 players in a division; #1 promotes, #8 demotes.

I think #2 should play a match vs #7 of the division above him for promotion/demotion.

How about 3 - 6?

I think we should just let 4 and 5 alone.

You could have #3 play #6, this way you have more chances to move up or down.

This is slightly different from Stef's proposal in that 5 can't get demoted anymore, I think it's a bit silly that you could get demoted if you end up about halfway in your division. 4 has 3 above him and 5 has 3 below him, nothing wrong with that. The incentive for #4 and #5 are of course to get either 3rd or NOT 6th. But sometimes you will still have games that don't matter at the end, there's nothing wrong with that though.

I think naming the divisions Colony through Estate makes a bit more sense. You could always go down to Curse if more than 120 people show up.

Another thing; the bottom divisions probably do not all have 8 players. But we can cross that bridge when we get there and see how we divide things up.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: ashersky on February 02, 2014, 08:25:07 am
I'd play.

How would you work out card ownership?   (That is, can those who haven't paid Goko play in the league?)
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Teproc on February 02, 2014, 08:47:52 am
Seems like a neat idea. Like Qvist, I'm not a fan of relegation matches, and would play for ranking regardless (ie it matters to me being 3rd over 4th, regardless of the rewards attached to it).

Regional divisions seem good, although it causes a problem at the Gold level. Europe/America is a fine division, but kind of leaves Asian/Australian players hanging. Maybe Pacific/Atlantic ? This is bad for people in Russia or the Middle East, but I don't think there are a lot of them here, right ?
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Davio on February 02, 2014, 12:00:34 pm
It's probably easier to do the actual divides when we know how many players from what continents we are dealing with.

If anyone knows a super handy site for registration, let us know. We should pick a deadline though for the current rankings to base the initial seeding on.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: soulnet on February 02, 2014, 12:22:26 pm
A Form by Google should be easy enough (much easier than /inning in some forum thread). In any case, I would polish the format and open the signups a couple of weeks before actually starting, otherwise we may see a lot of signing ups being canceled.

About the names, I grant that Victory card names make more sense, but basic Treasures feel better for divisions names in my head.

I would also like:

Necropolis
Hamlet
Village
Plaza / Fortress
City

which fits the theme "places where people gather".

EDIT: We may even use different names of cards of the same cost with a name representing a place for the divisions in the same level, even though there are not enough Villages.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on February 02, 2014, 12:23:27 pm
Okay, we have 8 players in a division; #1 promotes, #8 demotes.

I think #2 should play a match vs #7 of the division above him for promotion/demotion.

You could have #3 play #6, this way you have more chances to move up or down.

This is slightly different from Stef's proposal in that 5 can't get demoted anymore, I think it's a bit silly that you could get demoted if you end up about halfway in your division. 4 has 3 above him and 5 has 3 below him, nothing wrong with that. The incentive for #4 and #5 are of course to get either 3rd or NOT 6th. But sometimes you will still have games that don't matter at the end, there's nothing wrong with that though.

This does not work with the proposed structure, the tiers are like this:
     A
  B     B
C C   C C
etc. There are two #2s vying for a spot in the higher division. That is why Stef's proposal always has more possible demotions than promotions per division, promotions/demotions aren't symmetric.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: GeoLib on February 02, 2014, 03:34:48 pm
Okay, we have 8 players in a division; #1 promotes, #8 demotes.

I think #2 should play a match vs #7 of the division above him for promotion/demotion.

You could have #3 play #6, this way you have more chances to move up or down.

This is slightly different from Stef's proposal in that 5 can't get demoted anymore, I think it's a bit silly that you could get demoted if you end up about halfway in your division. 4 has 3 above him and 5 has 3 below him, nothing wrong with that. The incentive for #4 and #5 are of course to get either 3rd or NOT 6th. But sometimes you will still have games that don't matter at the end, there's nothing wrong with that though.

This does not work with the proposed structure, the tiers are like this:
     A
  B     B
C C   C C
etc. There are two #2s vying for a spot in the higher division. That is why Stef's proposal always has more possible demotions than promotions per division, promotions/demotions aren't symmetric.

Why are you derailing the thread with this talk of how to set up the divisions when we haven't even decided what they're going to be called??
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Davio on February 03, 2014, 02:47:27 am
Okay, we have 8 players in a division; #1 promotes, #8 demotes.

I think #2 should play a match vs #7 of the division above him for promotion/demotion.

You could have #3 play #6, this way you have more chances to move up or down.

This is slightly different from Stef's proposal in that 5 can't get demoted anymore, I think it's a bit silly that you could get demoted if you end up about halfway in your division. 4 has 3 above him and 5 has 3 below him, nothing wrong with that. The incentive for #4 and #5 are of course to get either 3rd or NOT 6th. But sometimes you will still have games that don't matter at the end, there's nothing wrong with that though.

This does not work with the proposed structure, the tiers are like this:
     A
  B     B
C C   C C
etc. There are two #2s vying for a spot in the higher division. That is why Stef's proposal always has more possible demotions than promotions per division, promotions/demotions aren't symmetric.
Oh, right, somehow I missed that.

In that case I would just pit #2's from B against #6 and #7 from A.

This means that #3 to #5 from division B downwards are done at the end, but I don't think that's wrong or that there need to be more matches at the end. This isn't a TV sport where we need more matches to bring in more money.

I mean, if you're going to the trouble to compete, you're also likely to try your best and play for the highest possible spot. And if not, well no one's stopping you from trying out a wacky strategy in your final game.

If I'm going to end up 3rd, I'm not going to be bothered by the fact that I can't promote.

My main incentive for competing would be that I get to play interesting matches at roughly my own level and if my play gets me 3rd, well, I guess that's the division I belong in.

This only differs from Stef's original plan in that #7 doesn't demote directly.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: yed on February 03, 2014, 06:53:13 am
In that case I would just pit #2's from B against #6 and #7 from A.
That does not work. You have two #1s from B, so they take place #7 and #8 from A.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Emeric on February 03, 2014, 08:24:09 am
int this model
     A
  B     B
C C   C C
I think the best way is :
from Division A 3 demotion (#6, #7 and #8)
from Division B 3 promotion (#1 of each group and the winner of a match beetween #2 of each group).
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Emeric on February 03, 2014, 08:28:22 am
Also the 8 people groups at same league level (2nd and more) can be somehow shuffled together so that you play with different people each season.
Nah, you should just have timezone divisions to make scheduling easier.

I.E:

- Division A would be essentially a "World" division, no way around it
- Division B could be divided roughly into Europe/Africa and USA/Asia/Oceania
- There are 4 Division C's, so these will be mostly people in the same timezones, not more than 3 hours apart
Etc...

The fun part about having regional divisions is that you could choose to play your match in real life if you wanted to. :D

I like the regional divisions, like in the Davis Cup, but I don't like your view of what the world is. Where did the entire American continent went, besides the US?

I dislike regional divisions.
In sports in the real life, regional division are in place to reduce the cost of the sport. For exemple when I am a poor player in a poor division I don't like to cross all over France to play against another poor player of my poor division.

But with online competition, I want to play against Japan, American, Brazilian or other pepople from Tuvalu ! And not only if I am in the first division.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Emeric on February 03, 2014, 08:29:23 am
I'd prefer:

King's Court
Throne Room
Great Hall
Secret Chamber
and "poor house" when 128 more players join the league !
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Davio on February 03, 2014, 09:36:56 am
Well, I can only play during the evening and if someone else in Japan can only play during his, that's going to be a problem. But since division 1 is going to be , all Holland, it's going to be ok. I just don't think we need to have these problems as much in lower as in higher divisions.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: -Stef- on February 03, 2014, 12:47:36 pm
Thanks to everyone for so much discussion about the format.
I think I'll let the discussion go on for about three more weeks and then put it to a vote along the most sensible options.
Maybe 2-3 options we've heard so far, maybe someone still thinks of something clever in the near future.
Could be a second vote on the names of the divisions if people really want that (more suggestions for names welcome)

If I find the time to code some scheduling / results aggravating thingy that would be great because otherwise organizing it actually does look like a lot of work.

At this point, my personal favorite structure is still the original one. I really don't want 4 people to demote unconditional, because I think that's way too depressing for the one on the bottom of the rankings. Demotion becomes inevitable probably 3 matches before the end. I believe the people here claiming they would play on, and so would I. But the people not discussing the format so actively might be a bigger problem.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Joseph2302 on February 03, 2014, 01:14:46 pm
Well, I can only play during the evening and if someone else in Japan can only play during his, that's going to be a problem. But since division 1 is going to be , all Holland, it's going to be ok. I just don't think we need to have these problems as much in lower as in higher divisions.

I completely agree, I would love to play people all over the world, but logistically it can be a nightmare. Playing in GokoDom tournaments, it can be very hard to schedule with people in North America or Asia, and I've ended up playing games at silly times like 11pm or 9am (I'm a student, so 9am is very early for me), because that's the only time we could play. So a European (or European timezone) group would be better, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Watno on February 03, 2014, 01:36:48 pm
Well, I can only play during the evening and if someone else in Japan can only play during his, that's going to be a problem. But since division 1 is going to be , all Holland, it's going to be ok. I just don't think we need to have these problems as much in lower as in higher divisions.

I completely agree, I would love to play people all over the world, but logistically it can be a nightmare. Playing in GokoDom tournaments, it can be very hard to schedule with people in North America or Asia, and I've ended up playing games at silly times like 11pm or 9am (I'm a student, so 9am is very early for me), because that's the only time we could play. So a European (or European timezone) group would be better, in my opinion.
I agree with 9 am, but how is 11 pm stupid?
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Monsieur X on February 03, 2014, 01:45:13 pm
int this model
     A
  B     B
C C   C C
I think the best way is :
from Division A 3 demotion (#6, #7 and #8)
from Division B 3 promotion (#1 of each group and the winner of a match beetween #2 of each group).

Yes i agree with that. For me #5  stay in his division   and just  "one match decision" for promotion is attractive
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Watno on February 03, 2014, 01:51:43 pm
I used to run something similar to this on BSW by the way, and also had fancy names for the leagues.
Some things you might want to consider:
1) You will probably not get a number of players divisible by 10, unless you cut off registrations at some point, which seems unnecessary
2) People drop out. In my experience this especially applies to people who are about to be demoted,  but anyway this will affect how many free spots there are for pro-/demotion
3) Consider having a rule to prevent people from delaying all games until the last week of the season, because that is likely not to work.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Monsieur X on February 03, 2014, 02:01:59 pm
Well, I can only play during the evening and if someone else in Japan can only play during his, that's going to be a problem. But since division 1 is going to be , all Holland, it's going to be ok. I just don't think we need to have these problems as much in lower as in higher divisions.

I completely agree, I would love to play people all over the world, but logistically it can be a nightmare. Playing in GokoDom tournaments, it can be very hard to schedule with people in North America or Asia, and I've ended up playing games at silly times like 11pm or 9am (I'm a student, so 9am is very early for me), because that's the only time we could play. So a European (or European timezone) group would be better, in my opinion.

I understand but on the other side, with lower divisions by regions we can have big differences of levels and make more or less competitive  divisons.
for example i saw during the country tournament there were 2 USA and Japon teams with very good players and with a lot of substitutes.
France and Belgium needed to play both to have 4 players!

I think the better would be to sign up for this dominion league and see next knowing how many players of each "region" will play...

And if the players who are demoting are all from USA.... where will they go in regional division??


Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: lespeutere on February 04, 2014, 03:23:46 am
I don't think, anybody disputed that strength of play decides at what level of division people are playing. It's just that if there are 16 players for divisions B, one would try to have as little time difference as possible (based on f.ds championships data, that would probably be B1: America, B2: rest, i.e. mainly Europe and Japan).
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: EgorK on February 05, 2014, 10:54:12 am
My 2 cents:

1. 5 player divisions with 4 week schedule and 1 week intermission between seasons, this way no need for promotion relegation matches and there is still not much of "swamp" in the middle with #1 promoted, #4 and #5 relegated and #3 and #4 stays where they are. Also this way if you bail out from one season - it would be only about a month.

2. Vacant places should always be filled. First priority should be given to those returned from vacation, but in any way all vacant places should be treated as wild cards and distributed by organizers. Only lowest division can have less then 5 per zone

3. Partition by time zone seems most logical
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Emeric on February 05, 2014, 11:37:39 am
With 5 players in a division you need 5 weeks for schedule due to the bye every week.

WeekGame 1Game 2Bye
1A-BC-DE
2A-CB-ED
3A-DC-EB
4A-EB-DC
5B-CD-EA
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: soulnet on February 05, 2014, 11:48:38 am
With 5 players in a division you need 5 weeks for schedule due to the bye every week.

There is no bye nor fixed pairings. Each pair of players can schedule their game in any of the weeks of the season (having that flexibility is part of the core of the idea). Thus, the length of the seasons does not need to be exactly N-1 weeks, where N is the number of players of each division. That is just meant to have an average of 1 game a week, but having a bit more or a bit less than that should also be fine.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Kirian on February 05, 2014, 12:53:31 pm
My 2 cents:

1. 5 player divisions with 4 week schedule and 1 week intermission between seasons, this way no need for promotion relegation matches and there is still not much of "swamp" in the middle with #1 promoted, #4 and #5 relegated and #3 and #4 stays where they are. Also this way if you bail out from one season - it would be only about a month.

2. Vacant places should always be filled. First priority should be given to those returned from vacation, but in any way all vacant places should be treated as wild cards and distributed by organizers. Only lowest division can have less then 5 per zone

3. Partition by time zone seems most logical

Huh, I had not considered 5 player divisions.  That's quite an interesting idea actually.  No bonus matches, and seasons are faster.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: lespeutere on February 05, 2014, 04:21:37 pm
Maybe I'm football (i.e. 'soccer') and Europe biased but 5 teams is barely a league, at most a group, e.g. something to start a world cup tournament or champions league with.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Voltaire on February 05, 2014, 04:22:43 pm
Maybe I'm football (i.e. 'soccer') and Europe biased but 5 teams is barely a league, at most a group, e.g. something to start a world cup tournament or champions league with.

The league would be comprised of many groups of 5 (or whatever number is ultimately picked)...unless I'm misunderstanding you.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: lespeutere on February 05, 2014, 04:27:51 pm
Maybe I'm football (i.e. 'soccer') and Europe biased but 5 teams is barely a league, at most a group, e.g. something to start a world cup tournament or champions league with.

The league would be comprised of many groups of 5 (or whatever number is ultimately picked)...unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Maybe some terminology issue. For me, 'league' is the same as division. So we're aiming at a league system with e.g. Colony League, Province Leagues A and B, Duchy Leagues A, B, C, D, etc.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Kirian on February 05, 2014, 09:41:33 pm
Maybe I'm football (i.e. 'soccer') and Europe biased but 5 teams is barely a league, at most a group, e.g. something to start a world cup tournament or champions league with.

The league would be comprised of many groups of 5 (or whatever number is ultimately picked)...unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Maybe some terminology issue. For me, 'league' is the same as division. So we're aiming at a league system with e.g. Colony League, Province Leagues A and B, Duchy Leagues A, B, C, D, etc.

Yeah, that sounds like a translation issue, though as I think about it, I've seen "league" interpreted multiple different ways in various sports in the US.  At the high school level, the league is the group of nearby high schools against which you normally compete.  At the college level, it denotes nearby colleges--though "nearby" now means a day's drive rather than an hour's.

And then of course there are the different levels, which are sometimes leagues (pro baseball, for example) and sometimes divisions (various school sizes at the college level).  It's... all a bit confusing.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: rrwoods on February 06, 2014, 12:02:30 pm
This sounds pretty awesome.

I'd be in favor of either smaller divisions (5-6ish?) or longer seasons.  8 weeks to play seven sets could get a bit tight schedule-wise, depending on the occupations of the players and what time zones they happen to fall in.  Probably smaller divisions > longer seasons but I don't have a strong preference.

Either way, I'd definitely be interested in the first go-around of this.  I've been thinking about GokoDom but I'm intimidated and unfortunately there's no way I could commit to the schedule.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Davio on February 07, 2014, 02:30:03 am
I created a signup thread (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10385) for the League in which you will find a link to an entry form on Google Docs. Please fill it in if you're interested so we can see how many people we're talking about.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Monsieur X on February 14, 2014, 07:44:09 am
knock knock! Is there still someone on this topic?

Well i have an other idea : why not leagues with 14 players, with 2 promotions and 4 demotions

Platinium  one league with 14 players
gold  2 leagues with 14 players
silver  4 regional leagues with 14 players

1/ It would allow 98 players to play  (is that an argument??? not sure but i put it)
2/ if you lose your first games you have more possibilities to come back and hope promotion than in a 8 players' league
3/ More stability in each league with 8/14 players remaining in the league
4/ no promotion or demotion matches between 2 players at the end of league


Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on February 14, 2014, 12:14:52 pm
I think the idea has been tabled until the end of Gokodom.

The problem with a larger league is then you have to play and schedule more matches per season, with 14 players that's 13 matches that each player has to schedule, so you'll probably need more than 2 months. Maybe a longer season isn't so bad but you don't want to stretch it out interminably or people are going to lose interest. Also based on the turn-out for Gokodom I think that the setup needs to accommodate more than 100 players (based on how many of the first-time posters in Gokodom see it through).
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: -Stef- on February 15, 2014, 10:17:17 am
Don't worry, it's still going to happen :) It might take a little longer to start as gokodom gets delayed indeed.

division sizes
I really like the ideas with small divisons with 5 or 6 players. Shorter seasons also means it's easier for new good players to advance to higher levels.
However, lots of opinions on this subject so there will be a vote. Probably between small (5/6), medium (8 ) and big (12/14)

time between seasons
For organisational purposes, I really want 1-2 weeks between the seasons. Also as a player I think I'd prefer it this way.

relegation matches
I still like them but almost everyone else seems to be against it so I'll just drop this idea.

maximum number of players
I really see no reason to have a maximum. The format scales very well. We just add more layers as more people want to join, regardless of division sizes.

division names
I will create a vote for this after we have a sensible guess on the number of names we need. Suggestions still welcome.

time zones / regions
I would try to put people with similar timezones together because that makes it easier to schedule. However, there were also some misunderstandings about the execution. Timezones are just indications and not leading. i.e. if we're to divide 12 players in 2 B-divisions, both divisions would always end up with 6 players. I'd just sort the players on timezone and draw a line somewhere to split them. This split could be but is not necessarily related to some border in the real world.

number of games per match
In the discussion so far this has been fixed to 6 and that's ok with me. But maybe it's worth a discussion anyway. An alternative is this:
Everyone picks his personal favorite number of games to play: 6, 8 or 10. When two players play against eachother, they play the minimum number of games between their two preferences.  We would need to add some formula to make it fair, but I'm sure we would manage. (i.e. if you play 6 games each game is worth 20 points, 8 -> 15 points, 10 -> 12 points).
Maybe we should even allow 4 games per match in the lowest division? Or is this just not worth the trouble and "6 always" is best?

empty slots
Empty slots are only possible in the lowest division. If people leave on higher divisions, we'll just fill it with free promotions and/or new players.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on February 15, 2014, 10:34:40 am
For the record I liked the idea of relegation matches, it adds a bit of excitement to the tie-breaking match.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: yed on February 15, 2014, 03:48:18 pm
For the record I liked the idea of relegation matches, it adds a bit of excitement to the tie-breaking match.
Me too!
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: florrat on February 15, 2014, 04:46:46 pm
I think we should also vote for the relegation matches. People who were against the idea commented on it, while people in favor stayed more quiet. I'm also slightly in favor of the relegation matches.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: soulnet on February 16, 2014, 03:07:15 pm
I think we should also vote for the relegation matches. People who were against the idea commented on it, while people in favor stayed more quiet. I'm also slightly in favor of the relegation matches.

I think that, and also some text, is an indicator that people against relegation matches feel more strongly on the subject. I would not like the gap between seasons to be large, but also would hate to be demoted just for being unavailable to play in a particular gap, especially since it is impossible to know in advance if I have to.

Stef, I think there should be a rule on whether people staying (no promotion or demotion) in a division other than the top will always stay together or they would be shuffled (random or non-randomly) with the others at the same level. I would prefer the latter, as it will give more dynamism to lower divisions, which seems fun.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: shraeye on February 16, 2014, 09:38:11 pm
I think you'll face a problem towards the end where people know they cant get promoted or demoted so there's very little incentive to play that game. Which would mean you would need some sort of penalties..
Surrendering more than say one match per season sounds like good grounds for disqualification from the league.
Not disqualification, but perhaps auto-demotion.  Although surrendered matches are a sure way to end up at the bottom of a division's table.

Sounds great.  I would suggest shorter cycles.  More movement between divisions would add interest and excitement.  And, it could be frustrating to play certain members regularly for a few months, have a few bad games, and then have to wait 2 months to play the members you're used to playing.
I like the idea of playing mostly the same people.  It's kinda a bonding thing, in a way.  If I'm not great enough for promotion (and I'm not), I get the benefit of a small community of 3-4 people who I play semi-regularly against.  It's fun, even if I'm not successful.

Also the 8 people groups at same league level (2nd and more) can be somehow shuffled together so that you play with different people each season.
Nah, you should just have timezone divisions to make scheduling easier.

I.E:

- Division A would be essentially a "World" division, no way around it
- Division B could be divided roughly into Europe/Africa and USA/Asia/Oceania
- There are 4 Division C's, so these will be mostly people in the same timezones, not more than 3 hours apart
Etc...

The fun part about having regional divisions is that you could choose to play your match in real life if you wanted to. :D
Love it.  The people who are dedicated enough to be in the top division are also dedicated enough to make the more awkward match-times.  I'm simply not good enough to justify moving around my non-dominion schedule at all in order to make a match.  So the lower divisions would have the convenience of easy-to-schedule matches.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: shraeye on February 16, 2014, 09:46:55 pm

I agree completely with your views on the division sizes.

Relegation matches: I'm completely for them.  If you simply decree that #1/2 move up and #5/6/7/8 down, that is WAAAYYY too much movement for a "league" system.  Giving a few auto-relegation/promotion spots with some spots that have a play-off for relegation/promotion is the best.  Sometimes #2 will ALSO be strong enough to deserve a spot in the next-highest league, and sometimes, in a weaker division, only #1 will deserve it, but #2 isn't as strong as numbers 5/6 from the higher league.  The relegation/promotion matches will sort all that out nicely.

number of games per match:  my preference is for smaller matches, as it's easier for me to commit to.  I understand that the better players want more games as it reduces variance and focuses more strictly on skill.  Perhaps there could be a player-preference set, and whichever system has the most votes in a division is the set of rules under which that division plays.  If there are multiple people in the same time-zone, perhaps they could also be grouped by #ofGames preference so everybody is maximally happy.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Temron on February 17, 2014, 04:38:53 pm
I would be interested in this as well. After reading all the arguments I would like to chime in and say that I like idea of relegation matches! Everything else looks good to me.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: GeoLib on February 17, 2014, 05:53:49 pm
What about as a compromise on relegation matches, we have challenge matches? So a #2 can challenge a #5 or #6 from the division(s) directly above if they think they have a shot of making it in?
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Voltaire on February 17, 2014, 05:56:02 pm
What about as a compromise on relegation matches, we have challenge matches? So a #2 can challenge a #5 or #6 from the division(s) directly above if they think they have a shot of making it in?

Why would someone not challenge?
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: GeoLib on February 17, 2014, 06:16:51 pm
What about as a compromise on relegation matches, we have challenge matches? So a #2 can challenge a #5 or #6 from the division(s) directly above if they think they have a shot of making it in?

Why would someone not challenge?

They don't have time/want to take a break during the off season. I thought that was one of the major complaints about relegation matches. Though I suppose it doesn't solve the problem if the challenged doesn't have time.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: silverspawn on February 25, 2014, 02:37:04 am
I'll be in
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: hvb on March 03, 2014, 04:53:12 pm
I have a proposal that belongs to the league names as well as to the modus

1: 1 World League              World League

2: 3 Continental Leagues:   America League
                                        Europe League (incl. Africa)
                                        Asia League (incl. Australia)

3: 9 National Leagues:       US Pacific
                                        US Atlantic
                                        Columbus (canada and the rest of N+S-America)
                                        Baltic Sea (Scandinavia + Germany)
                                        North Sea (Netherlands, Belgium, UK, France)
                                        Mediterranian East (South and East Europe)
                                        Far East (Japan, Korea, China)
                                        Australia (Australia, NZL, Tiger States)
                                        Central Asia (Russia, India, Middle East and the Rest of Asia)

4: Regional Leagues:          best would be 3 per National League, will highly depend how many player will sign up in the Regions


I think that would be a clear modus and everybody (except the 1 world league) could play without big time differences. The borders in the National Leagues can get modified, depending on the player base in the countries.



It that modus 6-8 players per league would be perfect. The first of each league goes up, the last 3 go down. For example with 8 players (without play-offs):

1.        goes up
2. - 5.  stays
6. - 8.  go down


8 players with play-off:

1. - 4. play for 1 slot to go up in a final four:    semis 1. vs. 4. and 2. vs. 3. + final. a 3-3 draw could count as win for the higher seeded
5. - 8. play for 1 slot to stay in the league:       semis 5. vs. 8. ang 6. vs. 7. +final. a 3-3 draw could count as win for the higher seeded

i think play offs would be nice cause everybody is motivated till the end in group stage, so noone is induced to play bad cause he cant go up anymore or goes down anyway. and play-offs are thriller with a lot of adrenalin.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Simon (DK) on March 04, 2014, 04:26:03 pm
I haven't seen this thread untill recently, and didn't have time to read it through before today.
I've had pretty much the same idea before, but didn't feel that up to organizing it.
I think it's a very good idea, and I would love participating.

I would be willing to help on the organizing team. I know I'm not a respected dominion player, but I have experience with leagues. For years I've been playing on a site called shockplay, that has integrated leagues (there's 7 different games that has a league each), and I've been admin for 1 of the leagues, so I had to make the hard decisions every time something happened. I think that experience could be good here in some situations.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: EgorK on March 05, 2014, 12:33:32 am
I have a proposal that belongs to the league names as well as to the modus

1: 1 World League              World League

2: 3 Continental Leagues:   America League
                                        Europe League (incl. Africa)
                                        Asia League (incl. Australia)


Now suppose 2 american and asian player would get demoted from World League, what would you do? I think best way is to divide whoever is in given league based on timezone, but with no fixed regions. Also having all of Russia in single division is not good thing to do - we have difference of 9 hours between eastmost and westmost timezones
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: TheMirrorMan on March 05, 2014, 09:31:51 am
Is the timezone problem such an issue ? I mean, GokoDom proves it can get sorted.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: hvb on March 05, 2014, 11:23:07 am

Now suppose 2 american and asian player would get demoted from World League, what would you do? I think best way is to divide whoever is in given league based on timezone, but with no fixed regions. Also having all of Russia in single division is not good thing to do - we have difference of 9 hours between eastmost and westmost timezones

In that case, you have to adapt the number of demoters in the lower leagues. In your case 3 would demote from asia league, 4 would demote from america league and 2 demote from europe league.
Thats a mode you can in a lot offind  sport leagues with regional borders. I know it from field hockey in germany. The first league is german-wide. There are 2 second leagues, north and south. 2 teams demote every season from first league. If they are lets say both from north, then there are 3 teams that demote from 2nd league north and just one from the south. The system works fine at all.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: EgorK on March 06, 2014, 05:42:26 am

Now suppose 2 american and asian player would get demoted from World League, what would you do? I think best way is to divide whoever is in given league based on timezone, but with no fixed regions. Also having all of Russia in single division is not good thing to do - we have difference of 9 hours between eastmost and westmost timezones

In that case, you have to adapt the number of demoters in the lower leagues. In your case 3 would demote from asia league, 4 would demote from america league and 2 demote from europe league.
Thats a mode you can in a lot offind  sport leagues with regional borders. I know it from field hockey in germany. The first league is german-wide. There are 2 second leagues, north and south. 2 teams demote every season from first league. If they are lets say both from north, then there are 3 teams that demote from 2nd league north and just one from the south. The system works fine at all.

Seems a tad unfair to me
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: lespeutere on March 06, 2014, 07:00:41 am
Is the timezone problem such an issue ? I mean, GokoDom proves it can get sorted.

This, mostly. I mean, it's played on the internet, it's not like flying 10 h to meet manzi in Japan.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 06, 2014, 11:28:44 am
It can be hard to find matching times when timezones are way off, but sometimes its hard even in the same timezone, just due to schedules and the fact that Dominion isn't everyone's #1 priority. Matching up timezones is a nice secondary objective for sorting players into divisions within a tier, but it definitely shouldn't affect the promotion/relegation structure, imo.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: GeoLib on March 06, 2014, 04:50:35 pm
It can be hard to find matching times when timezones are way off, but sometimes its hard even in the same timezone, just due to schedules and the fact that Dominion isn't everyone's #1 priority. Matching up timezones is a nice secondary objective for sorting players into divisions within a tier, but it definitely shouldn't affect the promotion/relegation structure, imo.

I strongly agree. Not to mention that this just makes it more of a headache for the organizers. Within each level with more than one division, sure break them up by approximate time zones, but don't structure the league around this.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: -Stef- on March 06, 2014, 05:39:21 pm
Timezones never were a problem in any tournament, and they won't be in this league either.
Off course promotions/demotions won't depend on your time offset.

But hey, this is f.ds, where people claiming scout is good or lookout the best $3 trasher get maximum response.
Why would it be any different when organizing a tournament? Off course we spend a lot of time debating timezones and division names.
That's all fine with me, as long as you also take a moment to vote (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10561.0) on stuff that actually matters.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 07, 2014, 05:10:28 pm
Timezones never were a problem in any tournament,
This is definitely false.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: Kirian on March 08, 2014, 01:47:05 am
Timezones never were a problem in any tournament,
This is definitely false.

Yes.  Several matches in GokoDom have been left unplayed (bye by default) due to scheduling difficulties.  With the league setup, this shouldn't be as bad because you'll have two months in which to schedule matches (except of course for relegation matches if they exist).  On the other hand, it presents a definite extra problem as GokoDom has rules in place to deal with these defaults, whereas the league couldn't reasonably hand a 3-3 tie to each player, as that's abusable as all hell.  On the gripping hand, trying to generate groups by TZ is going to be really difficult, as you might have a group of three players in East Asia/Oceania (UTC+7 to UTC+12), yet have three full groups in the Americas (UTC-9 to UTC-3).  In the upper leagues, those are going to get smashed together anyway.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: dominion123 on March 28, 2014, 04:16:45 pm
When can I sign up for this?
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: florrat on March 28, 2014, 06:00:18 pm
When can I sign up for this?
You cannot sign up yet. That still has to start. Check this subforum regularly to see whether they have opened.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: dominion123 on March 28, 2014, 06:01:29 pm
When can I sign up for this?
You cannot sign up yet. That still has to start. Check this subforum regularly to see whether they have opened.

are there any tournaments I can sign up to now?
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: TheMirrorMan on May 02, 2014, 09:29:49 am
A little suggestion for the Dominion League :

How about putting together a small Doodle per division, showing the days that people are unavailable ? Not in the sense of time, but more days off with other priorities (holiday, festivities ...). That way you can quickly organize who to play when.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: yed on May 02, 2014, 09:37:43 am
A little suggestion for the Dominion League :

How about putting together a small Doodle per division, showing the days that people are unavailable ? Not in the sense of time, but more days off with other priorities (holiday, festivities ...). That way you can quickly organize who to play when.
But we don't have days in the same time... time zones...
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: TheMirrorMan on May 02, 2014, 09:52:20 am
But we don't have days in the same time... time zones...

True for the top division, not necessarily for the lower ones. And like I said, it's just an indication of when the best day could be to schedule the match.
Title: Re: Dominion League?
Post by: -Stef- on May 02, 2014, 10:22:53 am
But we don't have days in the same time... time zones...

True for the top division, not necessarily for the lower ones. And like I said, it's just an indication of when the best day could be to schedule the match.

There will be a scheduling-thread for each division.
People can post a message in it with some summary of their week schedule (days of the week you would like to play, days you can never play, ...)

Nothing obligatory and maybe not as structured as you hoped, but I think this will cover the basic needs.