Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: AJD on November 21, 2011, 12:30:08 pm
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So as we all know, you can reveal the same Reaction multiple times in response to the same event. So if you reveal Secret Chamber "when another player plays an Attack", and go through the whole draw-and-discard rigmarole, once you're done with that it's still "when another player plays an Attack" and you can reveal the Secret Chamber again if you want to (or some other when-Attack reaction).
Isotropic implements this correctly for Secret Chamber, Moat, and arguably Trader. For Horse Traders and Fool's Gold it's moot, because once you've used it to React once it's no longer available to be revealed again.
For Watchtower, should you be able to (pointlessly) reveal it multiple times for the same when-gain event, bouncing the gained card back and forth between the trash and your deck until you decide where you want it? Does this have something to do with the losing-track principle?
And perhaps more meaningfully, I can't figure out what in the rules prevents you from revealing the same Tunnel more than once as it's being discarded. The losing-track principle can't be involved here; if gaining a Gold caused you to lose track of the discarded Tunnel, it would (since Donald tells us discarding happens simultaneously) cause you to lose track of other discarded Tunnels as well, and we know that's not true since you can reveal multiple distinct Tunnels in reaction to the same discard event. So why can't you reveal the same Tunnel more than once? (Note: I'm not claiming you can; I just don't understand why you can't.)
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Your point about Watchtower seems to be incorrect. If I am remembering the card correctly, it triggers on a card being gained. You only gain the curse once per Witch (or whatever attack have you) being played. Thus, you get to put the card in the trash or on top of your deck, but you are no longer gaining it. It has been placed somewhere else and you are no longer gaining it. I am not sure about Tunnel, though.
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Your point about Watchtower seems to be incorrect. If I am remembering the card correctly, it triggers on a card being gained. You only gain the curse once per Witch (or whatever attack have you) being played. Thus, you get to put the card in the trash or on top of your deck, but you are no longer gaining it. It has been placed somewhere else and you are no longer gaining it.
So it seems to me that ordinarily reactions take zero game time (as it were), right? That is, someone plays a Pirate Ship, and you reveal a Secret Chamber and spend five minutes fiddling with the top cards of your deck, and once you're done, it's still "when another player plays an Attack" and you can reveal the Secret Chamber again and start over, right? Why wouldn't this apply to Watchtower equally? You gain a card, you reveal the Watchtower and move the gained card somewhere; but once you're finished doing that, no time has passed and it's still "when you gain a card".
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So why can't you reveal the same Tunnel more than once? (Note: I'm not claiming you can; I just don't understand why you can't.)
(...And to clarify again here, of course I understand why you can't in the sense of "because if you could, it would be terrible and mean the card would be broken". I agree! But given that it would be terrible and broken for the card to allow you to do it, why can't I figure out what in the rules of the game stops the card from allowing you to do that?)
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But given that it would be terrible and broken for the card to allow you to do it, why can't I figure out what in the rules of the game stops the card from allowing you to do that?
It's probably the same thing that stops a player from reacting to an event repeatedly, continuously, without end, creating an infinite game that has no conclusion. Common sense!
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But given that it would be terrible and broken for the card to allow you to do it, why can't I figure out what in the rules of the game stops the card from allowing you to do that?
It's probably the same thing that stops a player from reacting to an event repeatedly, continuously, without end, creating an infinite game that has no conclusion. Common sense!
Hmm? Common sense would dictate that, upon discarding my Tunnel, I should repeatedly reveal it until all the Golds are in my deck, and then stop revealing it and proceed. Clearly I'm actually not allowed to do that; it's not just common sense or common courtesy that prevents me.
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I hope Donald weighs in on this one... you seem to have a really good point, and I'm not quite sure what stops Tunnel from doing that. Actually, can't you say the exact same thing about the "When gain" cards? They aren't listed as reactions, but they do react to being gained. So, when you gain Border Village, what stops you from saying "I react to Border Village being gained by gaining Torturer. Now I react to Border Village being gained by gaining a Torturer again."
The wording seems to be the exact same. "When another player plays an attack card." "When you gain this." Both are things you can do "when something happens." Why can you do one of them only once, but the other multiple times?
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As for Watchtower, even without the Lose Track Rule, revealing it multiple times to bounce it back and forth between your deck and the trash is no different than revealing a Secret Chamber multiple times consecutively.
For Tunnel, I believe you reveal it as you discard it. So you're not really revealing it from your hand or from the discard pile. I suppose it's just implicit that you can't reveal it multiple times during the same discard, and after the first discard, it's in your discard pile. Compare this to most Reaction cards, which get revealed from your hand and placed back in your hand afterward. Because it's still in your hand, you can reveal it from your hand again.
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Hmm? Common sense would dictate that, upon discarding my Tunnel, I should repeatedly reveal it until all the Golds are in my deck, and then stop revealing it and proceed. Clearly I'm actually not allowed to do that; it's not just common sense or common courtesy that prevents me.
Quoting the base rulebook,
"Reveal" - when a player reveals a card, he shows a card to all players and then returns it to wherever it came from (unless instructed specifically to put it elsewhere). If the player is required to reveal cards from the top of his Deck, and he does not have enough cards, he shuffles in order to reveal the required number of cards.
I'd assume that for Tunnel, after you reveal it, it goes straight to the Discard. At that point, you are no longer discarding it, and thus can't reveal it.
I'm not sure about Watchtower though; I think your point probably holds that it's probably the same on-gain event that you can react to.
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As for Watchtower, even without the Lose Track Rule, revealing it multiple times to bounce it back and forth between your deck and the trash is no different than revealing a Secret Chamber multiple times consecutively.
True! But, you know, you're still allowed to reveal the Secret Chamber or even the Moat multiple times consecutively.
For Tunnel, I believe you reveal it as you discard it. So you're not really revealing it from your hand or from the discard pile. I suppose it's just implicit that you can't reveal it multiple times during the same discard, and after the first discard, it's in your discard pile. Compare this to most Reaction cards, which get revealed from your hand and placed back in your hand afterward. Because it's still in your hand, you can reveal it from your hand again.
<a href="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1004.msg15493#msg15493">This post from Donald</a> suggests that Tunnel actually gets revealed from the discard pile.
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Border Village causes something else to happen when you gain it (and Tunnel optionally does when it's discarded). You only gain it once so it only causes that thing to happen once.
The reason "when an opponent plays an attack card" is an exception to this is because we can't tell if you drew that Moat off of Secret Chamber or had it in your hand already, and if you had it in your hand you could use it, because you would just be picking the order to do two things you wanted to do at the same time. So we let you use it whether it was in your hand or not, and ditto a second Secret Chamber.
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So, to clarify, the reason you can reveal the same reaction card twice from your hand in response to a single event is because, since it's in your hand, the other players can't tell whether you're revealing one card or multiple copies, whereas with Tunnel the other players would be able to tell that you're revealing the same card twice?
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So, to clarify, the reason you can reveal the same reaction card twice from your hand in response to a single event is because, since it's in your hand, the other players can't tell whether you're revealing one card or multiple copies, whereas with Tunnel the other players would be able to tell that you're revealing the same card twice?
The reason that we let you reveal Moat / Secret Chamber twice is because we can't tell if you had multiples or what.
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So, to clarify, the reason you can reveal the same reaction card twice from your hand in response to a single event is because, since it's in your hand, the other players can't tell whether you're revealing one card or multiple copies, whereas with Tunnel the other players would be able to tell that you're revealing the same card twice?
The reason that we let you reveal Moat / Secret Chamber twice is because we can't tell if you had multiples or what.
I'll take that as a yes?
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I'll take that as a yes?
You did not get a "yes" because I wanted to be more accurate than you had been.
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I'll take that as a yes?
You did not get a "yes" because I wanted to be more accurate than you had been.
All right, I mean, I'm just— the rules for reactions are confusing, man, that's all. And not fully explained in the rulebooks, as far as I can tell.
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All right, I mean, I'm just— the rules for reactions are confusing, man, that's all. And not fully explained in the rulebooks, as far as I can tell.
It would have been nice to have a section in the main set rulebook that explained the types, for sure.
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event | |
reaction card | | multiple
show | | multiple
useful |
| attack played | | Horse Trader | | no | |
| attack played | | Moat | | yes | | no |
| attack played | | Secret Chamber | | yes | | yes |
| gain card | | Trader | | yes | | no |
| gain card | | Watchtower | | no | |
| Province gained | | Fool's Gold | | no | |
| discard | | Tunnel | | no | |
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event | |
reaction card | | multiple
show | | multiple
useful |
| attack played | | Horse Trader | | no | |
| attack played | | Moat | | yes | | no |
| attack played | | Secret Chamber | | yes | | yes |
| gain card | | Trader | | yes | | no |
| gain card | | Watchtower | | no | |
| Province gained | | Fool's Gold | | no | |
| discard | | Tunnel | | no | |
Nice. Is this the current Isotropic implementation of all these? I have a feeling that for Watchtower, you should be allowed to reveal it multiple times, according to the rules, for the same reason as the Moat and Secret Chamber. The reveal came from your hand and went back into your hand, so your opponent wouldn't be able to tell if you had another Watchtower to reveal, as opposed to revealing the same one multiple times.
Of course, doing that would be in the "not useful" category, at least right now. But there could easily be a reaction card later that's "when you trash a card, you may reveal this from your hand..." In that case, it would be important to know, could I gain a card, then reveal Watchtower to trash it, reveal the new card to do something upon the trashing, and then reveal Watchtower again to put the card on top of my deck? It seems to me that you should be able to do that.
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I have a feeling that for Watchtower, you should be allowed to reveal it multiple times, according to the rules, for the same reason as the Moat and Secret Chamber. The reveal came from your hand and went back into your hand, so your opponent wouldn't be able to tell if you had another Watchtower to reveal, as opposed to revealing the same one multiple times.
I think the difference is, when you've finished revealing + resolving Moat or Secret Chamber, it's still at the point of "Opponent has played an attack card", but when you've finished with Watchtower, it's moved past the point of "Gained a card" and is now at the point of "Trashed a card" or "Put a card on top of your deck". You can't reveal another Watchtower because the event that it would be reacting to has come and gone.
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I can see that logic too, but there doesn't seem to be a defined rule on when the event to react to actually ends. It seems like "when your opponent plays an attack card" is 1 exact moment in time, it doesn't last for any duration of time (time in terms of game events, of course). But events such as reveal, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, take 0 time. So after the reveal, you pick up exactly where you left off. It is still "when your opponent plays an attack" because no time has passed. I'm not sure why "when you gain a card" would be different.
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AFAIK one may play Watchtower and Trader to the same event, e.g. when gaining a curse changing it in silver and then putting it on deck.
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AFAIK one may play Watchtower and Trader to the same event, e.g. when gaining a curse changing it in silver and then putting it on deck.
Strictly speaking Watchtower and Trader aren't revealed to the same event: Trader is revealed before you gain a card, and Watchtower is revealed after you gain it.
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D'accord. And in reversed order Trader would be to late!
event | |
reaction card | | multiple
show | | multiple
useful |
| attack played | | Horse Trader | | no | |
| attack played | | Moat | | yes | | no |
| attack played | | Secret Chamber | | yes | | yes |
| before gaining card | | Trader | | yes | | no |
| after gaining card | | Watchtower | | no | |
| Province gained | | Fool's Gold | | no | |
| discard | | Tunnel | | no | |
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I have a feeling that for Watchtower, you should be allowed to reveal it multiple times, according to the rules, for the same reason as the Moat and Secret Chamber. The reveal came from your hand and went back into your hand, so your opponent wouldn't be able to tell if you had another Watchtower to reveal, as opposed to revealing the same one multiple times.
Of course, doing that would be in the "not useful" category, at least right now. But there could easily be a reaction card later that's "when you trash a card, you may reveal this from your hand..." In that case, it would be important to know, could I gain a card, then reveal Watchtower to trash it, reveal the new card to do something upon the trashing, and then reveal Watchtower again to put the card on top of my deck? It seems to me that you should be able to do that.
Donald, can we get a ruling on this? I know that it doesn't actually make a difference currently (other than letting you trash a card, and then quickly change your mind and top-deck it instead... something that would protect against misclicks in ISO, but nothing else), but it would be nice to know for a good understanding of the rules in play. Could I trash a card, and then reveal the same Watchtower again, and top-deck it? What about 2 different Watchtowers?
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I have a feeling that for Watchtower, you should be allowed to reveal it multiple times, according to the rules, for the same reason as the Moat and Secret Chamber. The reveal came from your hand and went back into your hand, so your opponent wouldn't be able to tell if you had another Watchtower to reveal, as opposed to revealing the same one multiple times.
Of course, doing that would be in the "not useful" category, at least right now. But there could easily be a reaction card later that's "when you trash a card, you may reveal this from your hand..." In that case, it would be important to know, could I gain a card, then reveal Watchtower to trash it, reveal the new card to do something upon the trashing, and then reveal Watchtower again to put the card on top of my deck? It seems to me that you should be able to do that.
Donald, can we get a ruling on this? I know that it doesn't actually make a difference currently (other than letting you trash a card, and then quickly change your mind and top-deck it instead... something that would protect against misclicks in ISO, but nothing else), but it would be nice to know for a good understanding of the rules in play. Could I trash a card, and then reveal the same Watchtower again, and top-deck it? What about 2 different Watchtowers?
I'm pretty sure the answer is no because by the time you've finished reacting with one Watchtower it's no longer "when you gain a card" in the same way that it's still "when an attack is played" with Moat/Secret Chamber.
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I have a feeling that for Watchtower, you should be allowed to reveal it multiple times, according to the rules, for the same reason as the Moat and Secret Chamber. The reveal came from your hand and went back into your hand, so your opponent wouldn't be able to tell if you had another Watchtower to reveal, as opposed to revealing the same one multiple times.
Of course, doing that would be in the "not useful" category, at least right now. But there could easily be a reaction card later that's "when you trash a card, you may reveal this from your hand..." In that case, it would be important to know, could I gain a card, then reveal Watchtower to trash it, reveal the new card to do something upon the trashing, and then reveal Watchtower again to put the card on top of my deck? It seems to me that you should be able to do that.
Donald, can we get a ruling on this? I know that it doesn't actually make a difference currently (other than letting you trash a card, and then quickly change your mind and top-deck it instead... something that would protect against misclicks in ISO, but nothing else), but it would be nice to know for a good understanding of the rules in play. Could I trash a card, and then reveal the same Watchtower again, and top-deck it? What about 2 different Watchtowers?
Watchtower can't find the card once a Watchtower has trashed/topped it, so no, a 2nd Watchtower can't do anything. The as-yet unpublished "lose track" rule.
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I'm pretty sure the answer is no because by the time you've finished reacting with one Watchtower it's no longer "when you gain a card" in the same way that it's still "when an attack is played" with Moat/Secret Chamber.
This doesn't make any sense to me. If revealing a Secret Chamber and doing what it says takes no "time", why should revealing a Watchtower?
...The losing-track principle is what I expected the answer to this one would turn out to be.
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The as-yet unpublished "lose track" rule.
This should be good.
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Trader seems to relate to itself. When you are about to gain a card, you can gain a silver instead as a reaction. Without errata, what is the proper resolution of the original gained card? If it is trashed, then the silver itself is trashable, and Trader can cause an infinite loop to burn all the silver cards. This can be useful to empty a pile or deprive the other players of silver.
If it isn't trashed, then what is the fate of the card? In the case of Witch it may be implied that the curse never leaves the supply. With Ambassador it might also be assumed the card doesn't leave the supply. However, what happens to a card passed in Masquerade? Is it considered a gained card that can trigger a Trader event to alter the card to silver? If so, is the passed card trashed or returned to the supply?
AFAIK one may play Watchtower and Trader to the same event, e.g. when gaining a curse changing it in silver and then putting it on deck.
Strictly speaking Watchtower and Trader aren't revealed to the same event: Trader is revealed before you gain a card, and Watchtower is revealed after you gain it.
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Trader seems to relate to itself. When you are about to gain a card, you can gain a silver instead as a reaction. Without errata, what is the proper resolution of the original gained card? If it is trashed, then the silver itself is trashable, and Trader can cause an infinite loop to burn all the silver cards. This can be useful to empty a pile or deprive the other players of silver.
If it isn't trashed, then what is the fate of the card? In the case of Witch it may be implied that the curse never leaves the supply. With Ambassador it might also be assumed the card doesn't leave the supply. However, what happens to a card passed in Masquerade? Is it considered a gained card that can trigger a Trader event to alter the card to silver? If so, is the passed card trashed or returned to the supply?
AFAIK one may play Watchtower and Trader to the same event, e.g. when gaining a curse changing it in silver and then putting it on deck.
Strictly speaking Watchtower and Trader aren't revealed to the same event: Trader is revealed before you gain a card, and Watchtower is revealed after you gain it.
A passed card is not a gained card. Neither Trader or Watchtower can react to Masquerade. A gained card always comes from the supply (or the Black Market deck or Prize pile - you know, some sort of unclaimed pile). So with Trader, it simply stays in the pile it was already in.
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Trader ... instead ... of the original ...
Allthough english is not my mother language, i thougt, "instead" has a simple meaning / translation. If one (would) need a rulebook for such wording, the game certainly would be broken.
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A gained card always comes from the supply (or the Black Market deck or Prize pile - you know, some sort of unclaimed pile).
(Or the trash, in the case of Thief / Noble Brigand.)
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Too bad I missed this thread until now because reaction timing is my pedantic forum posting specialty, and all the questions have been answered already ;)
It had never occurred to me to wonder about multi-revealing Watchtower, but yes, if you know about lose-track the answer is pretty clear: You can reveal and trigger Watchtower as many times as you want, but after the first time it won't be able to find the card it's looking for. So yeah, technically it's in the "multiple show but not usefully" category.
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... multi-revealing Watchtower, but yes, if you know about lose-track ... technically it's in the "multiple show but not usefully" category.
Because of the lose-track i thought of it as single-show : more comparable with Horse Trader than with Trader.
The "not usefully" category was meant for "yes = you can change your intention and redo" or "no = you can, but that does not change anything". OK, that applies also to above definition, but the play situation has already progressed then (card moved, event is past). Opposed to Moat and Trader, which change the outcome, but do not leave the event.
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The event isn't past though. After you finish resolving Watchtower it's still "when you gain a card" - same concept as being able to reveal Secret Chamber again after it's already finished resolving its game effects from the first time you revealed it.
Of course this is certainly not important since it is never useful to reveal it again. Like, I would not suggest isotropic should give you the option to keep revealing Watchtower ;)
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The event isn't past though. After you finish resolving Watchtower it's still "when you gain a card" ...
I am not so sure about that anymore: If you use Watchtower first and can not use it again because lose-track, is the gained card then not lose-track for any other "When gain" also ?
Is lose-track a general state?
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I am not so sure about that anymore: If you use Watchtower first and can not use it again because lose-track, is the gained card then not lose-track for any other "When gain" also ?
Presumably? The only other cards I can think of that that would affect, though, is Nomad Camp, which is the same as the multiple-Watchtower case: if you use Watchtower to trash a Nomad Camp, it doesn't bounce back out of the trash and onto your deck under its own power.
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I am not so sure about that anymore: If you use Watchtower first and can not use it again because lose-track, is the gained card then not lose-track for any other "When gain" also ?
Is lose-track a general state?
Lose-track isn't a timing issue; it's a location issue. Watchtower's reaction effect expects the gained card to be on the discard pile (where it would normally be immediately after gaining it). If the gained card is actually somewhere else (top of your deck, trash) Watchtower can't find it. Other when-gain movement effects also expect the card to be on the discard pile, so they similarly lose track of the card after Watchtower moves it.
Lose-track is unpublished and AFAIK Donald has never even publicly expressed a precise/final statement of the rule. The gist is that any card-movement effect has a well-defined expectation for where the moved card is coming from, and if it isn't in that place the effect can't find the card to move it. There's also the idea that if you really lose track of a card (because it got shuffled into a draw pile or something like that) then no movement effects can find it either, but I've never seen any rigorous statement of that principle.
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Another thorny interaction occurs to me, since I enjoy thinking about these bizarre edge cases: Border Village + Watchtower. I gain a BV and put it on my discard pile, I gain another card from BV's when-gain effect and put it on my discard pile, and then I want to reveal my Watchtower to put the 2nd card on top of my deck followed by the BV on top of that. Has Watchtower lost track of BV since it got covered up by the 2nd gained card? I wouldn't feel confident making a ruling on this myself without appealing to Donald, but if I was forced to decide in a FtF game I would probably say Watchtower has indeed lost track of BV and cannot move it. I could have revealed Watchtower to put BV on my deck before gaining the 2nd card, but not after.
Inn + Watchtower is maybe an even weirder case. I gain the Inn and put it on my discard, then dig through and reveal some other action cards to shuffle into the deck but not the gained Inn. Now I want to reveal Watchtower to put the gained Inn on top of my deck after shuffling. Did digging through my discard make Watchtower lose track of the Inn, even though it never moved from the top of the discard pile during that process? I'd be inclined to say Watchtower can find the Inn, but again I'm not confident.
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Another thorny interaction occurs to me, since I enjoy thinking about these bizarre edge cases: Border Village + Watchtower. I gain a BV and put it on my discard pile, I gain another card from BV's when-gain effect and put it on my discard pile, and then I want to reveal my Watchtower to put the 2nd card on top of my deck followed by the BV on top of that. Has Watchtower lost track of BV since it got covered up by the 2nd gained card? I wouldn't feel confident making a ruling on this myself without appealing to Donald, but if I was forced to decide in a FtF game I would probably say Watchtower has indeed lost track of BV and cannot move it. I could have revealed Watchtower to put BV on my deck before gaining the 2nd card, but not after.
Inn + Watchtower is maybe an even weirder case. I gain the Inn and put it on my discard, then dig through and reveal some other action cards to shuffle into the deck but not the gained Inn. Now I want to reveal Watchtower to put the gained Inn on top of my deck after shuffling. Did digging through my discard make Watchtower lose track of the Inn, even though it never moved from the top of the discard pile during that process? I'd be inclined to say Watchtower can find the Inn, but again I'm not confident.
Until there's a published rule, let's say that Watchtower works in those two cases, because man everyone is going to think it does. And I think I already ruled somewhere that Watchtower/Border Village worked either way.
The lose-track rule doesn't have a special case for really losing track; that's just something I mention when discussing it. The rule can't be "you don't lose track" because you could really lose track, and Inn at last provides an example.
For the basic Watchtower question people were discussing, the trick is, lose-track only stops you from moving cards that have been lost track of. If you had a card Throw in a Silver, "you may reveal this when you gain a card other than Silver, to also gain a Silver," you could buy Curse, reveal Watchtower to trash it, then reveal Throw in a Silver to also gain a Silver. Throw in a Silver isn't trying to move the Curse, so using Watchtower first doesn't bother it.
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Here's another way to look at it that might put AJD's and others' minds at ease. (Going by guided's wisdom--which I'm inclined to do--this isn't technically correct, but in my opinion equivalent.)
The default rule for a reaction or reaction-like effect is that (1) an event or state triggers it, (2) the reaction is revealed if necessary and resolved, (3) and then the game continues. There's no need to think about "time".
Now there are two (well really one-and-a-half) exceptions thus far, both of them being cards that are revealed from, and remain in, the hand in reaction to an attack. So Secret Chamber and Moat (uselessly, except that it can follow after another reaction to the same event) are actually the exceptions to the rule. (FWIW, Trader is not an exception, and doesn't "freeze time"; it just can continue to react to its own effect each time it resolves, literally as the card text allows, ad nauseum.)
Now this is obviously confusing since those were the first two reactions printed in Dominion. But I just think that when you tell yourself that they are the only exception (so far), then you won't get hung up on the reaction mechanic anymore. I hope that helps even just a couple of people. If not, oh well. ::)
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The default rule for a reaction or reaction-like effect is that (1) an event or state triggers it, (2) the reaction is revealed if necessary and resolved, (3) and then the game continues. There's no need to think about "time".
There's only one rule with no exceptions, really.
(1) A triggering event occurs.
(2) Any and all reactions (and other effects) triggered off the above effect occur in series (with ordering based on published ordering rules).
With respect to reaction cards, one of the rulebooks states that each reaction card is revealed and resolved before the next reaction card is revealed.
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For the basic Watchtower question people were discussing, the trick is, lose-track only stops you from moving cards that have been lost track of. If you had a card Throw in a Silver, "you may reveal this when you gain a card other than Silver, to also gain a Silver," you could buy Curse, reveal Watchtower to trash it, then reveal Throw in a Silver to also gain a Silver. Throw in a Silver isn't trying to move the Curse, so using Watchtower first doesn't bother it.
Wasn't there a rule for "when gain", one must gain to trigger it? Need to gain Cache for Trader changing Copper - if Trader changed Cache then no Copper? Or is this a multiple event, which resolving order the player decide?
There's only one rule with no exceptions, really.
(1) A triggering event occurs.
(2) Any and all reactions (and other effects) triggered off the above effect occur in series (with ordering based on published ordering rules).
With respect to reaction cards, one of the rulebooks states that each reaction card is revealed and resolved before the next reaction card is revealed.
Does "ordering" mean rules which reactions has to be revealed and resolved before others or they cant use its effects e.g. due to lose-track?
And just from that rule is OP question understandable: Why should one (having changed mind) not be allowed or not be able to reveal Watchtower a second time and redirect from first choosed destination to the other? OK we know it now, the Watchtower lose track of it, but is the losed track a then aquired general state for that card, so any further "when gain" also could not find it? From Donald's last post i assume so! Example: One has to use Trader first on curse and then Watchtower on the Silver. If one use Watchtower first, one can't react with Trader as second reaction and then again Watchtower.
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Wasn't there a rule for "when gain", one must gain to trigger it? Need to gain Cache for Trader changing Copper - if Trader changed Cache then no Copper?
Yes, but Watchtower does not stop you from gaining a card (though Trader does); you gain the card, then do something with it with Watchtower.
OK we know it now, the Watchtower lose track of it, but is the losed track a then aquired general state for that card, so any further "when gain" also could not find it? From Donald's last post i assume so!
I'm not sure I understand your question. The lose-track rule doesn't stop things from happening that don't involve moving cards-lost-track-of. If you buy Cache and use Watchtower to put it on your deck, you still have those two Coppers incoming because that rule doesn't care where Cache is. The only thing you can't do once you've moved Cache is move that Cache again.
Example: One has to use Trader first on curse and then Watchtower on the Silver. If one use Watchtower first, one can't react with Trader as second reaction and then again Watchtower.
Trader and Watchtower trigger at different times - Trader is "when you would gain" and Watchtower is "when you gain." You have to use Trader first because its trigger comes first!
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Thanks for your reply, Donald! Now most of my uncertainities are gone.
Wasn't there a rule for "when gain", ...
Yes, but Watchtower does not stop you from gaining a card (though Trader does); you gain the card, then do something with it with Watchtower.
Should not have used that example. Wanted to ask about the order in your "Throw in" example:
If you had a card Throw in a Silver, "you may reveal this when you gain a card other than Silver, to also gain a Silver," you could buy Curse, reveal Watchtower to trash it, then reveal Throw in a Silver to also gain a Silver. Throw in a Silver isn't trying to move the Curse, so using Watchtower first doesn't bother it.
I would have assumed, that because the curse is trashed first, no card is gained, so TiaS is not triggered anymore. In reversed order no problem. But of course one has to gain the curse first, before it can be trashed with Watchtower, so we have a "When gaining ..." event, to which one can reveal any proper reaction. Mixed that up with the usual habit in RL-game, to move the Watchtowered card directly from supply to trash.
The lose-track rule doesn't stop things from happening that don't involve moving cards-lost-track-of.
That answered my question. (And i assumed wrong)
Trader and Watchtower trigger at different times - Trader is "when you would gain" and Watchtower is "when you gain."
Argh - forgot my own corrections.
Thanks again.
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I hope Donald weighs in on this one... you seem to have a really good point, and I'm not quite sure what stops Tunnel from doing that. Actually, can't you say the exact same thing about the "When gain" cards? They aren't listed as reactions, but they do react to being gained. So, when you gain Border Village, what stops you from saying "I react to Border Village being gained by gaining Torturer. Now I react to Border Village being gained by gaining a Torturer again."
The wording seems to be the exact same. "When another player plays an attack card." "When you gain this." Both are things you can do "when something happens." Why can you do one of them only once, but the other multiple times?
It's funny, I was also thinking about this a while ago. If you can reveal a reaction from your hand several times when something happens, why can't you reveal a Tunnel several times when discarding it? Then that question becomes: when a card tells me to gain a card a card when something happens, why can't I do that several times? Which leads to: when Goons tells me to gain a VP when I buy a card, why can't I do that several times (effectively gaining infinite VPs)? Which even ultimately means: why can't I do what a card tells me to do several times (even without TR/KC), since the effect of a card is an event that happens when you play it? :)
I guess the answer was that this only applies to cards you reveal from your hand, as a special rule. Although I was slightly confused as to why Donald didn't give a clear "yes" to AJD's post. Does it only apply to Secret Chamber and Moat? I thought it also applied to Trader and Watchtower? As of now I take it Secret Chamber is the only one where it would have a point. But there could be future cards.
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As a side note, I just started playing Cosmic Encounter last night, and now all of a sudden, all my Dominion timing-related questions seem so quaint ...
(For reference, the unofficial CE FAQ is about 200 pages long. It's still an awesome game, though.)
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I guess the answer was that this only applies to cards you reveal from your hand, as a special rule. Although I was slightly confused as to why Donald didn't give a clear "yes" to AJD's post.
I addressed this already.
Does it only apply to Secret Chamber and Moat? I thought it also applied to Trader and Watchtower? As of now I take it Secret Chamber is the only one where it would have a point. But there could be future cards.
In games, when you have a rule like "when x happens, do y," y only happens once per time that x happens. If y is optional, that doesn't change things.
Dominion has a special case for reactions revealed from your hand, for reasons having to do with how best to handle Secret Chamber. To be precise and clear then these reactions should be phrased differently; they aren't.
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I guess the answer was that this only applies to cards you reveal from your hand, as a special rule. Although I was slightly confused as to why Donald didn't give a clear "yes" to AJD's post.
I addressed this already.
Yes, that reply was what slightly confused me. :)
Dominion has a special case for reactions revealed from your hand, for reasons having to do with how best to handle Secret Chamber. To be precise and clear then these reactions should be phrased differently; they aren't.
AJD said "reactions revealed from your hand" and your more accurate reply stated only Moat and Secret Chamber. But since you're now confirming that it is indeed reactions revealed from your hand, it's all good. Thanks.
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This might be a BUG report, im not sure:
I don't know if it's a bug or it's the right way it is implemented in iso.
Secret Chamber was on the board as the bane card for the Young Witch.
I just played a game where my opponent attacked me with an Oracle.
Now it asked me to reveal Secret Chamber. I said yes and drew 2 cards and put back 2 cards.
Now it asked me again. I said again yes and drew 2 cards and put back 2 cards again.
Now it asked me again. Ok i thought it was repetive, so i leaved it by that, so nothing else happended.
Some rounds later my opponent attacked me with Torturer.
I revealed SC. Drew 2 cards and put back 2 cards.
It asked me again then... After the 3rd time i decided to select none this time and the attack went through.
So i have to decide if a want a curse in hand or discard 2 cards. BUG?
Next time my opponent played Young with.
This time i decided to reveal my SC every time and see how long it takes.
After the 4th time of revealing, drawing and put back 2 cards the event stopped.
Ok i don't know if it's the right way to be played like that, but if yes, i don't understand why it asked me 4 times. And if i don't reveal it 4 times the attack goes through. Can't reach the game report right now. Will post it if there is need for tomorrow, when its on councilroom.
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It asks you multiple times because you're allowed to reveal Secret Chamber multiple times. That is, if someone plays an Attack and you have a Secret Chamber in hand, you're allowed to swap out the top cards of your deck as many times as you want, as long as the Secret Chamber stays in your hand. (Occasionally this makes a difference.) Once you've swapped out your top cards as many times as you want, you can stop revealing Secret Chamber.
Secret Chamber never stops attacks from going through, except when it's the Bane for Young Witch. If someone plays Torturer and you have Secret Chamber in hand, you're going to be discarding or taking a curse no matter what.
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Ahhh thanks. It was so confusing because the oracel makes a similar thing and all cases went nuts here. :D But i guess its a good test for the uses of SC in multiple cases. :D
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I believe that for Secret Chamber as the bane for Young Witch, it should ask you separately whether you want to reveal it as a response to an attack (to flip around the top cards of your deck) and whether to reveal it as a Bane for Young Witch? Or something?
Secret chamber is weird. In general, reactions CAN be revealed multiple times, but in virtually all cases there's no benefit to doing so; in the case of Young Witch/Secret Chamber, you DO have to reveal it twice, for different reasons. So you might have to say 'yes, no, yes' to the isotropic prompts if you want to reveal it for its ability, then not reveal it again for its ability, and then reveal it for the bane.
I don't know why it asked you four times. Maybe Doug put in a thing where it only lets you reveal four times, because even though you COULD reveal it more according to the rules, that's just stupid and you should cut people off so they don't stall.
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It asks you multiple times because you're allowed to reveal Secret Chamber multiple times. That is, if someone plays an Attack and you have a Secret Chamber in hand, you're allowed to swap out the top cards of your deck as many times as you want, as long as the Secret Chamber stays in your hand. (Occasionally this makes a difference.)
Now I'm curious. When does it make a difference to reveal Secret Chamber multiple times in response to the same attack, thereby swapping cards around from your decktop/hand multiple times?
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Reveal a secret chamber. Draw a moat, put two cards back. Reveal the moat. Reveal the secret chamber, put the moat back on top of the deck.
I have never seen it actually happen, but it theoretically could. There might be other equally weird cases, which would equally never actually happen. (I don't even know whether ISO would handle that case properly, with multiple reactions like that...)
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Who told you that you can reveal a reaction card multiple times, in response to the same event?
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Who told you that you can reveal a reaction card multiple times, in response to the same event?
I believe the Intrigue rulebook says it. And it's been discussed a lot here and answered by Donald X more than once.
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Who told you that you can reveal a reaction card multiple times, in response to the same event?
You can reveal Secret Chamber multiple times for the same attack (whether or not you put another reaction in-between). It's still the window of time for revealing reactions in response to the attack, and we don't know if your Secret Chamber is the same one you revealed before or not. So you just get to keep doing it. This is spelled out in the Intrigue rulebook.
The main set rulebook doesn't talk about revealing Moat multiple times, because it's redundant. Secret Chamber possibly matters though (e.g. Secret Chamber, getting Moat from the top, then Moat, then Secret Chamber again to put the Moat back on top).