Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: plasticbrain on November 19, 2011, 07:07:42 pm

Title: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 19, 2011, 07:07:42 pm
Hail, weary pilgrim... rest while I tell a dark tale of disaster.... and redemption!  On comes Plague, a dangerous new mini-expansion for Dominion. I hope you 'enjoy' Curses as much as I do... mwah ha ha HAAAA!!

... bear in mind, that only 5 of these 13 cards actually give Curses. I also designed them specifically so  while they have fun interactions amongst themselves, they could go into any random Dominion game and be fun individually. let me know what you think, but please spend a little time with them. Their dark, risky edge brings something pretty different to the Dominion universe, but that doesn't make them bad or not fun. My whole concept was to make Curses fun afterall!
--Don Riddle 'plasticbrain'

Scavenger – Action – 0$
“Choose one:  gain a card costing up to 2$; or gain a card costing up to 5$ from the trash pile.”

Rats – Action-Attack – 1$
"Trash this card and each other player gains a Curse.
Setup: Add an extra Kingdom card pile to the supply. Then, shuffle that pile and the Rats pile together into a single pile."

Poisoned Well – Action – 2$
+1 Action, +2$, “Return all Curses from the trash pile to the supply. When you gain this, gain a Curse.”

Medicine – Action – 2$
+1 Card, “You may trash a card from your hand. If that card is a Curse, +1 Action, +1$.”

Plague Doctor – Action-Reaction – 3$
+2$, "During your Buy Phase, cards from the Plague expansion cost 1$ less, but not less than 0$." / “When you would gain a card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, instead, trash that card; then at the start of your next turn, +1 Action and return this to your hand.”

Outbreak – Action-Attack – 3$
“Reveal your hand. If you reveal a Curse, each other player gains a Curse. Otherwise, gain a card costing up to 5$ and gain a Curse.”

Missionaries – Action – 3$
+1 Card, +1 Buy, “You may immediately look through your discard pile, reveal up to 2 cards with a cost of 0 from it, and trash them.”

Quarantine – Action – 3$
+1 Action, +1 Card, “When you play this, you may put 2 Curses from the supply onto your Quarantine mat. For every 2 Curses on your Quarantine mat, choose one: +1 Card; or +1 Buy; or +1$. Return all Curses on your Quarantine mat to your deck at the end of the game.”

Relief – Treasure – 3$
 +1 Buy, +1$, “ “If this is the first time you played a Treasure card this turn, you may immediately reveal your hand and discard all other Treasure cards from it. If you do, +3$."

Morgue – Action – 4$
"Reveal all cards in your discard pile. Choose one of them and put it into your hand."

Inheritance – Action – 5$
“Gain a Curse. If you do, gain a Duchy and a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."

Sewers – Action-Victory – 5$
“Worth 1 Victory for every 3 cards with a cost of 0$ in your deck (rounded down).” / “Trash a card from your hand. Gain a number of Coppers equal to its cost in coins."

Miracle – Action – 6$
+3 Action, +3 Buy, “Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. If all 3 cards have the same cost, gain a prize or a Duchy. Discard the revealed cards.”


that's all of them. thanks for looking... and commenting!
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Graystripe77 on November 19, 2011, 07:17:13 pm
Scavenger: I think there has been discussion about gaining from the trash, and it's really hard to balance out, so I would probably scrap the card.

Rats: Interesting concept, not quite sure how a $1 cost card could be very balanced though, kind of hard to tell now. Looks interesting with trashing on the board.

Poisoned Well: Hmmmmm, self cursing card. I don't know if it's good or bad, hard for me to tell.

Medicine: I have a similar card in my fan expansion that I'm going to put up soon. After some testing, it seemed a little strong for it's cost, maybe make it cost $4 since it's an optional effect.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 19, 2011, 08:08:44 pm
some changes
 from...
Poisoned Well – Action – 2$
+1 Action, +1$, “Each player (including you) gains a Curse.”
 to...
Poisoned Well – Action – 2$
+1 Action, +2$, “Return all Curses from the trash pile to the supply. When you gain this, gain a Curse.”

 and from...
Medicine – Action – 2$
+1 Card, +1 Action, “You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +1 Card.”
 to...
Medicine – Action – 2$
+1 Card, +1 Action, “You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +1$.”

also, changed Miracle cost from 5 to 6, to keep it from being bought/played too early, when decks are mostly Coppers.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Titandrake on November 19, 2011, 11:55:37 pm
With regards to Medicine:

I am pretty sure that $2 cost is too low for Medicine. I regularly buy Upgrade at $5 for the main purpose of trashing Coppers, which is essentially -$1. Sure, Upgrade lets you change Estates into Silvers (and Upgrades into Gold), but even the Copper trashing utility is quite good. I would maybe try it out at $4.

You know, now that I think about it, there aren't that many non-terminal trashers. Of the ones that exist (Apprentice, Upgrade, Governor kind of), they all cost $5 or more. The ability to chain them together is a strong effect that I find sometimes goes underrated.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: ChaosRed on November 20, 2011, 12:06:42 am
Medicine is indeed just a tad too strong at 2$.

Medicine – Action – 2$
+1 Card, +1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +1$.

You might find that removing the +1 Action will keep the card at 2$ however. A terminal that trashes a single card, is not that strong. In fact, it can test out to be quite weak. I tested this card for example:

(http://snazel.com/silver/Bailey.jpg)

...the above card isn't the same of course, it doesn't give you the same range of ability (it provides choice and defense instead), but I can tell you that card rated horribly as one of the worst buys that I tested. Also I had another card that allowed you to trash copper for +1 card, and it was also one of the worst rated cards. Bailey is getting a similar revision to what you've listed, for its next test (it has two +1$ effects one as the primary and one as the "reward" for trashing), but it remains terminal.

So a terminal card that trashes one card isn't that strong. A cantrip that trashes however will rate MUCH higher. Even the weakest trashers in my testing, tested really well if they had a +action to them, as they allowed the turn to continue, often allowing a stronger terminal to end the turn after the trashing.

You may find otherwise, but I would say Medicine is not costed right as it stands.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 20, 2011, 12:43:45 am
Medicine is indeed just a tad too strong at 2$.

i'm comparing Medicine to cards like Pearl Diver, Hamlet, Pawn and Cellar. i  think it's actually less powerful than all of those cards, or at least on par. i did change it from +1 Card on the conditional trash effect to +1$ because i realized that heavy trashing strategies would benefit too much. i think the 1$ bonus is incentive but not unfair value.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: chwhite on November 20, 2011, 12:54:05 am
Medicine is indeed just a tad too strong at 2$.

i'm comparing Medicine to cards like Pearl Diver, Hamlet, Pawn and Cellar. i  think it's actually less powerful than all of those cards, or at least on par. i did change it from +1 Card on the conditional trash effect to +1$ because i realized that heavy trashing strategies would benefit too much. i think the 1$ bonus is incentive but not unfair value.

Try comparing it to Upgrade, which is very often used to do the exact same thing on Coppers, without the $1 bonus.  It's way too strong at $2.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 20, 2011, 04:48:53 am
but seriously, before they were published, would you have said that Hamlet or Pawn were too strong at 2$? i think so. maybe Medicine pushes a little, but it's still totally reasonable. Upgrade is not a good comparison just because it trashes a card; what it can potentially do (despite how it's commoonly used) is much stronger than what Medicine does, which results in a greater cost.  if my playtesting proves otherwise, then i'll change it. but right now, i'm leaving Medicine alone. i've changed it's cost from 2$ to 3$.(note that i already weakened it once before based on feedback here).
and to show i'm listening, here's my tweak of Sewers to be more playable in decks without Curses...
from...
Sewers – Action-Victory – 5$
“Worth 1 Victory for every 2 Curses in your deck (rounded down).” / “Gain a Curse.”
to...
Sewers – Victory-Reaction – 5$
“Worth 1 Victory for every 3 cards with a cost of 0$ in your deck (rounded down).” / “When another player trashes a card with a cost of 0$, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, gain that card from the trash pile.”

also tweaked this from...
Rats – Action – 1$
+2 Actions, “Gain a Curse; put it into your hand. When you would discard this from play, instead, you may put this on top of your deck.”
 to...
Rats – Action – 1$
+2 Actions, “Gain a Curse; put it into your hand. When you would discard this from play, instead, you may put this on top of any player's deck.”
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: def on November 20, 2011, 06:06:09 am
Medicine looks still way to strong. There is a reason why a nonterminal trasher like lookout isn't doing much besides trashing and cycling another card, has the risk of forced trashing of good cards, and still costs 3 and is useful.

Open two medicines. Unless you draw two coppers and three estates, you are guaranteed to trash at least one estate and a copper while buying two silvers in the next two turns. In hands with silver and medicine, you can buy a gold while still trashing bad cards. Soon, you got rid of all your bad cards while loading up with silver and gold. Medicine does not hurt your current hand in contrast to any other trasher but Masquerade (or Mine). Finally, one medicine can trash the other one. And then they are nonterminal, so you can buy militia, mountebank or anything useful instead of one or two silvers. You can even buy four medicines, they don't conflict with eachother.

Example:
turn 3 and 4 trash one estate and one copper, buy two silvers; reshuffle: deck: 6 coppers, two estates, two silvers, two medicines.
turn 5 and 6: let's say silver copper copper copper medicine, drawing a copper, trashing it, buying a gold, and copper, copper, estate, estate, medicine, drawing a silver, trashing an estate, buying a useful 5.
So now we have 5 coppers, one estate, two silvers, one gold, one useful 5, and two medicines.
From here on, you can pretty much buy gold or province every turn without clogging your deck since you are continuing to trash bad cards.
You can even buy three or four of them early on, it doesn't hurt (though i doubt it's better).

Missionaries has a similar problem, but it suffers from being drawn right after a reshuffle. Otherwise, trashing two bad cards while drawing two cards and improving the hand is really strong.

I'd like to see double medicine in simulation against double jack of all trades.

I don't want to go in detail with the other cards, but many seem to be in contrast to unwritten principles in Dominion.
Like, 0 and 1 cost kingdom cards, +3 buys which you won't need but in special situations. It's not bad per se to break with conventions, but, to put it carefully, some of your statements ("I'm comparing medicine with pearl diver") just give the impression that you misjudge some cards and basic concepts. Try to look around here, there are many useful threads and posts to help you like rinkworks' fan card creation guide.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Octo on November 20, 2011, 07:18:45 am
Very thematic and some really nice ideas, though a couple fundamental issues with some of the cards for me:

Rats: Donald X. (the maker) has specifically tried to remove game politics from dominion, which is why all the attacks cannot be target at anyone. Personally this is something I really like about the game. The most specific it gets is with cards like Tribute that target the person to your left. Your card, rats, is essentially an attack, and it allows you to pick on one player to be the victim.

Relic: this card will be no use in a game with no trashing (which is relatively common).

Poisoned Well: still some use when there's curse giving cards (+1 action, +2$) but then it's a very different card and will balance very differently. Would you buy a +1 action, +2$ card for 2 if you got a curse? Not really. Probably best to just take a copper if you're that desperate, or usually nothing at all.

Scavenger: again, no real use if there's no trashing cards. Sure you can gain a copper into hand, and maybe you might want to get it for some kind of counting house scenario, but then with no +action you'll want to be using something better for your action, so you'd probably be better off just buying a copper in the first place. Dunno. Also, 0$ for a card that get me a gold or province out of the trash? (God forbid a platinum or colony) Sheesh, that's crazy good. (They can be forced in by saboteur, rushed in by end-game acceleration.) But then most of the time it could be really useless as obviously most of it is junk (hence the 0$ cost) - so as mentioned by Graystripe77, gaining from the trash is super hard to balance.

Having said that, I like the way the theme interacts amongst the cards. I wonder if it's similar to Alchemy in the way that it would be best when there's 3 or 4 from the same set. I also wonder if, like Alchemy, you might be better served by adding a new card like "plague" or "contagion" that's similar to curses but allows you more freedom with the mechanics.

Quarantine: I like quarantine, but I think it's underpowered. Consider a Pawn. It gives you two of those benefits, only costs $2 (half the price) and doesn't involve getting 4 curses. So while quarantine could be super-charged, you'd need to take some serious curses to make that happen. Granted, those curses won't be clogging up your deck - which is an interesting feature - so it's just negative points, but would I really like to spend 4 actions and -8 VPs just to turn my quarantines into what is either a lvl2 city, a Worker's Village, a bazaar or a market? Sounds like too much hard work to me. I wonder what it would be like at one curse per increment. How has this card played out in your testing?

Outbreak - again, great theme. Not too sure about gaining the $5 card, but again I'm curious to hear how this has gone in playtesting. Overall I think this card is a nice idea - you need to be cursed to dish them out etc.

Hmm, overall though the strong theme and interactions are really appealing. Keep tweaking!
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: ChaosRed on November 20, 2011, 12:33:25 pm
i'm comparing Medicine to cards like Pearl Diver, Hamlet, Pawn and Cellar. i  think it's actually less powerful than all of those cards, or at least on par. i did change it from +1 Card on the conditional trash effect to +1$ because i realized that heavy trashing strategies would benefit too much. i think the 1$ bonus is incentive but not unfair value.

You might be right, your testing will inform you if you are right or not. I think the adjustments you made were good (changing it to 3$ in particular was the right move I think). One thing I learned is that a card's value and worth really only truly manifests in testing. Even in real expansions this is true. At first glance, Jack of all Trades seemed decent but not really strong, but the testing of the best players revealed it to be one of the best supporters of big money in the game.

That's the joy of testing, you begin to discover the hidden secrets of your own expansion, you didn't even see. I wish you great luck with your testing, it is great fun.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 20, 2011, 03:04:06 pm
@Octo: this was intended to be a "dark" expansion, so i like how rats breaks from the norm and can "attack" a single player. but i think it's balanced by the fact that it can only really hurt (curse) you if you use it. of course, using it is the only way to get rid of it! (other than trashing, which there's a lot of in this set.)
and i'm still believing in Scavenger. you say it could gain a Province from the trash? when? when is there a Province in the trash? yes, it could maybe get a Gold after somebody's Remodel, but that's what it's about. mostly, it'll be an enabler for some other strategy, but occassionally it can get something good, or slow down an opponent who's afraid of putting good stuff in the trash for you. i think, how small its effect is most times balances the unlikely but possible big effect it can have.

and now, some changes...
 first eveybody's favorite, from...
Medicine – Action – 3$
+1 Card, +1 Action, “You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +1$.”
 to...
Medicine – Action – 2$
+1 Card,^ “You may trash a card from your hand. If that card is a Curse, +1 Action, +1$.”

 and from...
Quarantine – Action – 4$
“When you play this, you may put 2 Curses from the supply onto your Quarantine mat. For every 2 Curses on your Quarantine mat, choose one: +1 Card; or +1 Action; or +1 Buy; or +1$. Return all Curses on your Quarantine mat to your deck at the end of the game.”
 to...
Quarantine – Action – 3$
+1 Action, “When you play this, you may put 2 Curses from the supply onto your Quarantine mat. For every 2 Curses on your Quarantine mat, choose one:+1 Card;^ or +1 Buy; or +1$. Return all Curses on your Quarantine mat to your deck at the end of the game.”

 and from...
Relic – Treasure – 4$
+1$, “When you play this, gain a card costing up to 1$ per every 2 cards in the trash pile (rounded down). If it’s a Victory card, trash this.”
 to...
Relief – Treasure – 5$
-1$, “When you play this, reveal your hand. +1$ for every card with a cost of 0 you have in your hand or in play.”

 and from...
Missionaries – Action – 3$
+2 Cards, “You may immediately look through your discard pile, reveal up to 2 cards from it, and trash them.”
 to...
Missionaries – Action – 3$
+2 Cards, “You may immediately look through your discard pile, reveal up to 2 non-Copper cards from it, and trash them.”

let me know what you think...
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Octo on November 20, 2011, 03:52:02 pm
Erm, when is there a province in the trash? Well, I trash provinces deliberately relatively often. You push your province advantage by trashing a province and just replace it with another - use either Forge, Remodel, Salvager or various other cards. It really is quite common I think. Saboteur is the other obvious province trasher. I'm pretty sure we've all had a province (or more than one) trashed by saboteur which is super painful, it would be ridiculous to  have it trash, then the other chap gain it for themselves in the same turn....a 20VP swing (if colonies) with 2 actions? And still a buy to go? That's a bit much.

" i think, how small its effect is most times balances the unlikely but possible big effect it can have." - this is classic pitfall of game balance (computer games or whatever). "Item A is generally pretty useless, but occasionally it's fucking awesome" just smacks of ropey balance to me. It makes game really really swingy, which detracts from the feeling that you're in control of the game. Note also that just because you can both buy it, doesn't make it a balanced card.

Now, you could argue that the presence of scavenger what deter you from trashing stuff, which is fair enough, but the fact that you can't get things back from the trash is inherent in the benefits you gain in trashing. Take apprentice. (+1 action, Trash a card, get +cards equal to its cost). That's going to be silly good - trash a province or colony, knowing full well you'll have a scavenger in there eventually which cost you nothing, use the extra cards to buy another province and scavenge the old one back in the meantime. That's crazy good. The whole reason you get 8 cards for trashing a province (8 cards is loads!) is because it's working under the assumption that you are genuinely trashing that and giving it up. How about Upgrade - trash a province into a platinum, then gain the province back immediately after. Free platinum, due to 0$ cost card. I dunno.

Anyway, I don't understand quite why you'd want it normally. Most of the stuff in the trash is junk, obviously. I'll be a little more constructive and say how about scavenging through your discard pile and putting something on the top of your deck?

As with all these cards, I'd be interested to hear how they performed in play-testing.

Rats - Ah I misunderstood Rats, right, you put the RATS on top of their deck, and not the curse. I see. Hmm, bit more complex that way. With the abundance of villages out there, I'd surprised if I found myself need +2 actions at the risk of gaining a curse. Still, if its the Rats getting passed that make it more interesting and less of an attack.

Quarantine - dunno, 2 curses each time is just a lot for one bonus I think. they don't clog up your deck, but the extra VPs you'll need to compensate will. 4 curses will require 2 VP cards to compensate (assuming a 4/4 split), and that's only going to gain you a laboratory really, or worse a treasury without the benefit. The versatility is nice, sure, but I'm not sure it's adequate compensation. The flip-side however is that turns into an absolute monster of a card if you take 8 curses. +4 cards + 1 action - hard to balance for sure. Needs play-testing for sure. Might be worth considering a max limit to number of bonuses. Or 1 bonus per curse etc.

Missionaries - in a game where you don't get cursed, there's very little else you're going to want to trash other than copper and the starting estates. Compare to steward, which can do both things, but only one at a time - this card does both (+2 cards, and 2 trashes) and without gimping your hand from trashes too.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 20, 2011, 04:09:01 pm
Missionaries - in a game where you don't get cursed, there's very little else you're going to want to trash other than copper and the starting estates. Compare to steward, which can do both things, but only one at a time - this card does both (+2 cards, and 2 trashes) and without gimping your hand from trashes too.
but you can't trash Coppers. i think you answered your own question there. i fixed this card. yes, it can do both, but only to get rid of non-Copper stuff which is very different from straight up trashing.

but you HAVE convinced me to change Scavenger... a little...
 from...
Scavenger – Action – 0$
“Choose one: gain a card from the trash pile; or gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.”
 to...
Scavenger – Action – 0$
“Choose one: gain a card costing up to 5$ from the trash pile; or gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.”
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Octo on November 20, 2011, 07:07:45 pm
Yes, you can't trash coppers. My point I guess that if you can't trash coppers and you're not getting cursed, then really, what's it for? If you are getting cursed, then it's great, too good probably - timing is far less an issue than other trashers, and unlike other trashers it doesn't reduce your hand size, so it's similar too but way better than a steward. If you CAN trash coppers it's - as mentioned before - too good also, for the same reasons.

An interesting idea could be you must trash two things from your discard pile. Bear in mind that you're not allowed to look through your discard pile. However, that's not as thematic.

Scavenger - definitely an improvement. Needs playtesting. Still, a cost of $0 though, bit odd. Don't think anyone will ever use it to gain a copper though.

Relic: -1$, needs clarification if you're going to keep that - what happens if I have -1 total money? (i.e. Relic on its own) Further, you need a Relic, and two $0s just to make it to $1 to spend from the relic.....3 cards to get $1 that's ... well, that's terrible. And it costs $5. You need a lot of junk in your hand to make this worth it. Even with the possibility of getting 2 curses and coppers + relic in my hand say, I reckon I'd still buy a silver as there's more occasions that it will be useful.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 20, 2011, 08:15:42 pm
Yes, you can't trash coppers. My point I guess that if you can't trash coppers and you're not getting cursed, then really, what's it for? If you are getting cursed, then it's great, too good probably - timing is far less an issue than other trashers, and unlike other trashers it doesn't reduce your hand size, so it's similar too but way better than a steward. If you CAN trash coppers it's - as mentioned before - too good also, for the same reasons.
Steward has a 3rd option (+2$) and is way less limited in its trashing than Missionaries. Missionaries is not stronger than Steward. it's really very different. it has its own particular strengths and weaknesses.

Quote
Bear in mind that you're not allowed to look through your discard pile. However, that's not as thematic.
that's why it has the text "You may immediately look through your discard pile." card text trumps rules. the Hinterlands card Inn lets you look through your discard pile, too, so it's not a new effect.

Quote
Scavenger - definitely an improvement. Needs playtesting. Still, a cost of $0 though, bit odd. Don't think anyone will ever use it to gain a copper though.
i'm glad you like this at least  :D i must admit, i think it's better now. but i also think it will definitely get used to gain the Copper! remember, it goes to your hand, so when you need that 1$ more to buy that Gold or Victory card, you're gonna use this.

Quote
Relic: -1$, needs clarification if you're going to keep that - what happens if I have -1 total money? (i.e. Relic on its own) Further, you need a Relic, and two $0s just to make it to $1 to spend from the relic.....3 cards to get $1 that's ... well, that's terrible. And it costs $5. You need a lot of junk in your hand to make this worth it. Even with the possibility of getting 2 curses and coppers + relic in my hand say, I reckon I'd still buy a silver as there's more occasions that it will be useful.
you don't have to play any Treasure card. and i think it's rather obvious what happens when you have negative money: same as when you have no money. and as far as the cost, it has to be 5$ because with Coppers, and curses (and maybe even a Scavenger  ;) ) around, and any card drawing, this can often be a Gold in the early game. i'd like to make it cost 4$ but i don't think i can. i'd be interested what other folks think on this... also, this is one of those cards that rewards you for holding onto/gaining coppers. and a sub-theme to my set is the poverity caused by plague, so rewarding the player for Coppers rather than big money.

EDIT: added +1 Buy to Relief for 2 reasons: 1) i needed another + Buy card in the set, and 2) this card needed a bit more to justify the 5$ cost.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 20, 2011, 11:20:01 pm
Relief – Treasure – 5$
-1$, “When you play this, reveal your hand. +1$ for every card with a cost of 0 you have in your hand or in play.”
This combos spectacularly well with Highway.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: dondon151 on November 21, 2011, 12:59:32 am
Steward has a 3rd option (+2$) and is way less limited in its trashing than Missionaries. Missionaries is not stronger than Steward. it's really very different. it has its own particular strengths and weaknesses.
Did you actually test this? As in, play enough games to produce a statistically significant win rate with / win rate without figure?

Plus, if Jack of All Trades is any indication, you don't need to trash Coppers to win an assisted Big Money game. Granted, JoAT does flood your deck with Silver, but still. You can also compared this to Masquerade, which is one of the best Big Money enablers - Masquerade has the same draw effect, and has a lesser trashing ability (it only trashes 1 card at a time). Missionaries can't trash Coppers, but the primary function of Masquerade is to trash Estates, not Coppers, since Estates drag down your average deck value more. I suppose the only problem with this card is if you open with it and there is nothing in your discard.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 21, 2011, 02:16:45 am
I suppose the only problem with this card is if you open with it and there is nothing in your discard.
this 'problem' is more of a limitation and is a part of the reason i think the card is fair and not as powerful as cards like Masquerade.

but, no, i haven't tested it enough yet, so we'll see...
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on November 21, 2011, 10:19:07 am
I'm late to this thread, and others have already said most of the things I would.  But here's one card that jumped out at me as a problem:

Inheritance – Action – 4$
+2 Cards, +2$, “When you would discard this from play, instead, you may put this on the bottom of your deck.”

A card that was merely +2 Cards and +$2 would all by itself be a ~$7 card.  Basically you can think of +1 Card as being roughly as powerful as +$1, though one might be rather more powerful than the other in any given situation.  You can tell this based on what your average card value is.   It's $0.7 at the start of the game, usually well above $1 or even $2 in the mid-game, and drops again once you start greening.

Anyway, just by looking at the base treasure cards, you can tell that each extra +$1 results in a price jump of about $3.  Similarly, you can see this same increase when you compare Moat and Smithy.  Moat is +2 Cards AND an extra benefit, so figure that a card merely offering +2 Cards should cost less than $2.   Smithy, meanwhile, offers +3 Cards and costs $4.  So again, approximately a $3 price jump.

Now, how much should +2 Cards, +$2 cost?  Start with a reactionless Moat, assuming a cost of $1.  Now throw in +$1, raising the price to $4.  Do it again, raising the price to $7.  Alternately, start with Smithy.  Swap out one of the +Cards for +$1.  Now add another +$1, increasing the price by $3 to $7.

You have to take calculations like that with a grain of salt.  The cost scale is not linear, and the overall effect of a card might strengthen or weaken the power of any of its individual effects.  Nonetheless, a card that is merely "+2 Cards, +$2" is very simple and well-understood; thus, calculations like this will be more precise than they would with something more exotic.

Anyway, so you have this $7 card and throw on its "when you discard" effect.  To be able to drop the price down all the way to $4, this effect had better be a huge, huge drawback.  In fact, it is not.  At the beginning of the game, and any game with heavy trashing, you'll be able to play this card about as often as you would anyway.  At first glance, I thought this would cause the card to miss every other shuffle, but it really doesn't.  In fact, I think it speeds up the frequency with which you get to use it.

If it's at the beginning or middle of your deck when you first shuffle it in, you get to use it and then use it AGAIN on that same shuffle.  If it's at the end, the reshuffle happens during the hand you draw it (either as you draw that hand or after playing the card), and then you STILL get to it again faster than you would if you had merely discarded it normally after play.

So basically in all cases, the card is played more frequently.  The "When you discard" clause is a clear benefit, thus raising the power level of the card further.  Though costs are more negotiable at the upper tiers, it seems like $8 might be reasonable.  That's pretty crazy.

I think if you knock out one of the +Cards or one of the +$s, you'd have a fine $5 card on your hands.  I guess I'd prefer to lose a +Card, for two reasons:  (1) to differentiate it more from Smithy, and (2) because the official cards seem to value terminal $ slightly more than terminal draw (compare Moat to Duchess), and I'm not sure the "when you discard" clause is enough by itself to cross the critical $4->$5 price gap.

Testing will help you figure this balance out.  I'm kind of interested to hear how the "when you discard" behavior feels in an actual game.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: ChaosRed on November 21, 2011, 10:45:10 am
Did you actually test this? As in, play enough games to produce a statistically significant win rate with / win rate without figure?

I know I keep preaching this, but testing is just so key. It is vital to refining any variant. rink's advice is platinum, but even he'd concede that all his advice has to be tested, there's just no substitute for it.

plastic, take our advice here with a grain of salt. Ultimately this is your creation, and ultimately the power-balance of the variant should reflect your own tastes and preference. It might seem we are overly critical or pedantic in our review of your work. Don't take that the wrong way.

I am an exception in that I don't know Dominion that well, but others here are quite well-versed in the game. Naturally, they are going to bring their great experience to bear in their analysis. I can tell you however, that when I heeded the advice they gave me, my set improved vastly. There is some validity to the "wisdom of crowds".

But don't take that as a sign we don't appreciate or admire your effort here, and ultimately if you feel strongly about a card's value/power then stick to your guns. But do test it out, nothing will prove your evaluation better than a strong set of test data.

I think you have a fascinating set of cards here.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Qvist on November 21, 2011, 11:42:42 am
Most things were said. But I like to add my opinions too.
Scavenger: As already been said, gaining from the trash pile seems straight forward, but is problematic. I think the most problematic thing is, that every card should give at least some benefit on every board. With a board with no trashers, this is a dead card. So if you really want to add the "gain from trash"-thematic, please let the card it self be a trasher. “Choose one:  gain a card costing up to 5$ from the trash pile; or trash a card from your hand.”

Rats: Why do you cost it $1? I can't see any reason for this. I have no problem for a card costing $1. But when, I think you have to do this on purpose, for a good reason. Letting it cost $2 doesn't change much. The bigger problem is: Dominion is designed to be a non-political game. A targeted "attack" is something I personally don't like, and if you do that, it may be a theme of a whole expansion I think. Why not: "put this on top of the deck from the player to your left".
With the 2 fixes, the card could be interesting, but needs to be playtested for sure.

Poisoned Well: +1 Action, +2$ is at least a $3-card. You try to fix that with gaining a curse. I'm not sure, but using this as a cheap silver could work, but returning all curses to the supply, could get crazy if you try to build a witch-heavy deck. I even think this could end in a lockout, in which one player is cursing and the other player tries to trash them indefinitely ... This needs to be play-tested.

Medicine: Looks nice. But this may also a dead card, if there are no curse-giving cards on the board, especially if Chapel is there too. Changing that into "If that card costs $0" may work.

Plague Doctor: Nice one, seems a little bit weak in comparism to Trader with only $1 cheaper. Maybe let it cost $2?

Outbreak: Nice conditional curser. First one I really like as-is.

Missionaries: I suggest changing it to +2$ instead of +2 cards. Trigger a reshuffle with this could really be frustrating. Trashing cards that are not in hand is new and nice, but I don't know how this may be priced. It seems a little bit strong, but as a little bit of luck is involved (size of discard pile), the card may be priced right.

Quarantine: Hm, very interesting card. I like it. It kept me thinking a while. It could work, seems like fun.

Inheritance: This is strictly superior than Smithy at the start. Smithy gives you 3 cards with a rough average of 0.8$ per card if you open Smithy/Silver. So Smithy gives you 2.4$ in average. Inheritance gives you $3.6 in average. So this is at least a $6-card. Then comes the additional effect which makes it a little stronger. Pricing it $7 or changing the effects seems necessary.

Relief: If I understand it right, an 5/2 opening, buying Relief and then a hand with Relief and 4 Coppers could give you $6. But this very unlikely, so an opening buy seems too weak. It could get crazy with a good running engine of Bridges or Highways and massive drawers. I would change the cost to $4 and change the text to only "in your hand" instead of "in play". But this is a subjective opinion.

Morgue: Wow. +4 cards. I think that each player may trash a card from their hands is not that big penalty, because you can too. I think you either change that to $6 or remove the "(including you)" clause.

Sewers: I think this is too expensive. If your deck is clogged up with curses or coppers it is difficult to get $5. Compare it to the Gardens strategy. If you price it $5, you basically say: "With no big strategy this is worth 3VP, because you could easily buy a Duchy too". I like the card, but I would price it $4.

Miracle: Crazy card. This card need big supporters, like good drawers or cards like Bridge. Do you mean by "Price" the Cornucopia prices? I have no idea if this is a good card, really.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on November 21, 2011, 01:28:31 pm
Morgue: Wow. +4 cards. I think that each player may trash a card from their hands is not that big penalty, because you can too. I think you either change that to $6 or remove the "(including you)" clause.

How'd I miss that?  Yeah, Morgue is also overpowered.  With the trashing option being equally beneficial for you and your opponents, it can be dismissed from price/power considerations.  The extra card up from Smithy should put its cost around $6-$7.

You might look at Envoy and Council Room for examples of how +4 Cards can work at a lower price, but Envoy's penalty -- losing your best card for a whole shuffle -- is kind of a big deal in many if not most decks.  As for Council Room, it's nerfed by a big benefit to your opponents.  The +1 Card for your opponents is actually quite a bit more powerful than one of the +Cards you get, because it's a terminal drawer for you but not for them.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Octo on November 21, 2011, 03:33:31 pm
The problem with Relic for me is that, well it almost costs as much as a gold, yet requires the presence of 4 other cards to get there. But you're saying it can be a gold with a drawing card - so it depends on a even better cards now to be worth it? And even then it might just be a silver if that doesn't pay off? Sure, they stack etc., but the point I didn't make about the big mega turns that you envisage where it's worth super dosh is that they will be so rare because, well, your deck has to be full of crap for the Relic's to be worth anything, so if it's full of crap how are you going to draw shit loads of cards? Counting House only works by virtue of scooping out the discard pile. Getting big hands takes some doing, and we try and do that at the best of times, let alone when we have a deck chocked with junk (and curses!). It combos well with Highway as pointed out, but then you're can competently avoid having crap like that (and in fact that's the only way you'll manage to play enough Highways to have an effect), which is not how you envisage the card clearly. Again, would be interesting to see it in play, if only for me to be proved wrong.

As for the -1$ - can I still take a copper with -1$ money? I know it would be silly to play it in that circumstance, but the fact that you can play it means you have to have an answer for that. Just a note about how you cannot have less than 0 money on the card somehow is needed.

Note: just add to what ChaosRed said, it's because the ideas here are actually quite interesting and intriguing that this is getting some real critique, so yeah, salt etc. :)
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on November 21, 2011, 04:11:00 pm
Relief is basically a Coppersmith that offers some money for Curses and incurs a penalty all the time.  Many games won't use Curses, so it'll be a weaker Coppersmith (already a weak -- or shall we say situational -- card at $4).  True, if you're inundated with Curses, this card might help save the day, but in that case you might well prefer to have Secret Chamber instead, as that will turn not only Curses into $1 apiece but will also do that for victory cards and dead terminals.

I'm pretty sure that the current version of the card, which I understand to be this:

Quote
-1$, +1 Buy, “When you play this, reveal your hand. +1$ for every card with a cost of 0 you have in your hand or in play.”

...is a fine $2 card -- or would be, if the ability to open double Relief wouldn't be make for too strong a second shuffle.  Beyond that second shuffle, though, it's not that great:  if you truly need the +Buy, it'll sometimes be better than Coppersmith or Secret Chamber, but if you don't, it's basically strictly weaker than both.

As for the combo potential with Highway/Bridge (reducing costs of other cards to 0 in order to make them count as $0-cost cards), that's a sweet little combo but quite negligible as far as pricing goes, since that type of combo will only be available in a small minority of games and possibly difficult to pull off even when it is.

Basically I think it's broken if you can open with two of them but not strong enough to warrant costing $4 or more.  I considered suggesting you change the -$1 to +$1 and see how that plays at a cost of $5, but I think then it is clearly too much superior to Coppersmith to allow a cost increase of only $1.  So maybe with no flat adjustment at all it's fine at $5.  Then it would be Coppersmith-with-a-buy-and-curse-compensation, which feels like it's probably balanced, though even more situational than Coppersmith already is.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on November 21, 2011, 04:16:59 pm
I've been kind of negative about a few of these cards, but here's a positive:  I love the idea of Miracle.  I don't know if it would actually work as written, but the central idea of caring about different card costs is interesting to me.  I half wonder if it might be better to require all different card costs, rather than them all being the same, but I still see that as the same basic idea.  I'm curious to know how you find that it plays.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 21, 2011, 05:40:55 pm
you guys are amazing. thanks for all the thoughtful feedback. it's really helping. and i'll admit i didn't at first realize how much help i needed. but i got a chance to do some playtesting last night... and a lot of what you guys have said is right on the money.
so, now come some changes....
i'm going to go through the changes to each card here, with why i either changed it or didn't. to just see the new cards look at first post.

 from...
Scavenger – Action – 0$
“Choose one:  gain a card costing up to 5$ from the trash pile; or gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.”
 to...
Scavenger – Action – 0$
“Choose one:  gain a card costing up to 2$; or gain a card costing up to 5$ from the trash pile.”

^i liked this card before, but i'm thinking it will see more use now.

 from...
Rats – Action – 1$
+2 Actions, “Gain a Curse; put it into your hand. When you would discard this from play, instead, you may put this on top of any player's deck.”
 to...
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Curse."

^this card was just not getting picked. this is a more tempting, and more dangerous buy. i didn't like the 'targeting' either. i also think this as an improvement flavor-wise. i really like the 1$ price because it feels like a discount, when it's usually not, and thus makes the Rats seem 'smaller.'

i'm leaving Poisoned Well alone for now. was attractive and fair during games i played.
i'm also leaving Medicine alone. it does 2 things that are valuable in any game, with a possibilty of being slightly stronger in a cursing game.

from...
Plague Doctor – Action-Reaction – 3$
+2$ / “When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Copper.”
 to...
Plague Doctor – Action-Reaction – 3$
+2$ / “When you would gain a card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Copper; then at the start of your next turn, +1 Action and return this to your hand.”

^this need a little livening up.

i'm leaving Outbreak alone because i like it as much as you guys seem to, and in playtesting it worked as intended.

 from...
Missionaries – Action – 3$
+2 Cards, “You may immediately look through your discard pile, reveal up to 2 non-Copper cards from it, and trash them.”
 to...
Missionaries – Action – 3$
+1 Card, +1 Buy, “You may immediately look through your discard pile, reveal up to 2 cards with a cost of 0 from it, and trash them.”

^this card needed some nerfing, but i like it. i also needed more + Buys and less + Cards in the deck to encourage using the cheaper cards.

Quarantine also works well as intended. i think reducing the Curse card gain from 2 to 1 would cause the card to be broken. another useful but fair card.

 from...
Inheritance – Action – 4$
+2 Cards, +2$, “When you would discard this from play, instead, you may put this on the bottom of your deck.”
 to...
Inheritance – Action – 4$
“Immediately put your deck into your discard pile.”  +1 Card, +2$

^as several of you pointed out, this card was broken. hopefully, i've fixed it. like Oracle, this card now causes an effect before the card draw. in this case the result is that you will have to shuffle a new deck to draw that card and Inheritance will be among the first cards of your new discard pile, thus, you will see it less often, which was my original intent.

 from...
Relief – Treasure – 5$
-1$, +1 Buy, “When you play this, reveal your hand. +1$ for every card with a cost of 0 you have in your hand or in play.”
 to...
Relief – Treasure – 4$
+0$, +1 Buy, “When you play this, count the cards in the trash pile. If there are no cards in the trash pile, gain a Silver, putting it into your hand. Otherwise, +1$ for every 2 cards in the trash pile (rounded down).”

^i found that the -1 effect was confusing even when you had 0 cost cards in hand, so i went back to the original Relic design and made some fixes so it's never a dead card in your hand.

 from...
Morgue – Action – 5$
+4 Cards, “Each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.”
 to...
Morgue – Action – 5$
+4 Cards, “Gain a curse."

^another obvious problem card. i went for a more thematic and punishing downside.

 from...
Sewers – Victory-Reaction – 5$
“Worth 1 Victory for every 3 cards with a cost of 0$ in your deck (rounded down).” / “When another player trashes a card with a cost of 0$, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, gain that card from the trash pile.”
 to...
Sewers – Action-Victory – 5$
“Worth 1 Victory for every 3 cards with a cost of 0$ in your deck (rounded down).” / “Trash a card from your hand. Gain a number of Coppers equal to its cost in coins."

^this is actually pretty solid, but its reaction wasn't being used much, so i gave it a better Action effect.

i'm leaving Miracle alone, since i haven't had its 'miracle' effect happen once yet! but i know it will happen someday, though it might take a... nevertheless, i got a close a couple of times and it was never a dead card, always useful.

there you have it. a real overhaul. let me know how i did. (in the meantime, i will continue playtesting.)

EDIT: tweaked Rats a little more.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: ChaosRed on November 21, 2011, 06:10:52 pm
I'll leave commentary on the individual cards to brighter minds than mine.

I will say I am very pleased you've started testing and that your testing revealed all kinds of cool data for you. I am really excited about this, because I eventually want to discuss HOW to test cards, and discuss what methods yielded good test data and what did not - and how best to track how a card fared.

I test a lot, but I am still unsure if my testing methods are really as stringent or as valid as they could be. The more people who actually test their variants and share their test methods, the better I think we can all be at testing them.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Octo on November 21, 2011, 07:25:18 pm
Oooo, wowzer, very interesting stuff. Lots of thoughtful changes on first glance, will give some feedback in a bit.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on November 23, 2011, 09:22:25 am
Solid changes, for the most part, though still a few problems.  You asked if I'd respond to your revisions, so here we go:

Scavenger – Action – 0$
“Choose one:  gain a card costing up to 5$ from the trash pile; or gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.”
 to...
Scavenger – Action – 0$
“Choose one:  gain a card costing up to 2$; or gain a card costing up to 5$ from the trash pile.”

I actually like this about equally either way.  Ill-Gotten Gains shows how much gaining a Copper to hand might actually be a good thing.  The second version is quite different and depends a lot on whether there are any $2 cantrips.  If not, it's an Estate-gainer in the end game.  I still don't like trash-retrievers on principle, but having an alternative option makes it playable.

^i liked this card before, but i'm thinking it will see more use now.

Quote
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Curse."

At $1, this card shouldn't be powerful, but it's really not powerful.  If you have just one, all it does is replace itself, exactly as if you hadn't bought it at all.  If you have two, you get a level 2 City effect and get cursed.  I can't imagine when you'd ever want these.  If you took the cursing out, it's probably balanced at $1, but since your average income per turn starts at $3.5 and goes up from there, when would you ever want to burn a buy on one, let alone two?

^this card was just not getting picked. this is a more tempting, and more dangerous buy. i didn't like the 'targeting' either. i also think this as an improvement flavor-wise. i really like the 1$ price because it feels like a discount, when it's usually not, and thus makes the Rats seem 'smaller.'

Quote
Plague Doctor – Action-Reaction – 3$
+2$ / “When you would gain a card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Copper; then at the start of your next turn, +1 Action and return this to your hand.”

This is only useful as a response to Cursing attacks, and then Moat/Lighthouse/Watchtower/Trader are still vastly superior.  Gaining Copper is almost always a bad thing, so exchanging a Curse for a Copper is barely an improvement.  You'd rather not gain anything.  So on non-cursing boards, this is strictly worse than Silver; on cursing boards, I'd still pass this up, preferring to take the Curses rather than clog my deck up with this card.

That's the problem with the base treasure cards -- the scale is so granular.  Copper is terrible, Silver is okay, and Gold is fantastic.  There's nothing in between:  if you want to have a good inexpensive card that helps you gain lots of one of them, Silver is the only one of the three that works.

Quote
Missionaries – Action – 3$
+1 Card, +1 Buy, “You may immediately look through your discard pile, reveal up to 2 cards with a cost of 0 from it, and trash them.”

^this card needed some nerfing, but i like it. i also needed more + Buys and less + Cards in the deck to encourage using the cheaper cards.

I like the reasoning.  This card seems fine.

Quote
Inheritance – Action – 4$
+2 Cards, +2$, “When you would discard this from play, instead, you may put this on the bottom of your deck.”
 to...
Inheritance – Action – 4$
“Immediately put your deck into your discard pile.”  +1 Card, +2$

Seems perfect now.  Nice idea.

Quote
Relief – Treasure – 5$
-1$, +1 Buy, “When you play this, reveal your hand. +1$ for every card with a cost of 0 you have in your hand or in play.”
 to...
Relief – Treasure – 4$
+0$, +1 Buy, “When you play this, count the cards in the trash pile. If there are no cards in the trash pile, gain a Silver, putting it into your hand. Otherwise, +1$ for every 2 cards in the trash pile (rounded down).”

This seems like a very strange hybrid.  I don't really understand the synergy between the different pieces.  Also note that while some games have 0 cards in the trash (which you've accounted for), some games have dozens of cards in the trash pile, which would make this a powerhouse of epic proportions.  It's good if a card is good sometimes and bad other times, but the variance on this is huge.

Quote
Morgue – Action – 5$
+4 Cards, “Each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.”
 to...
Morgue – Action – 5$
+4 Cards, “Gain a curse."

Much better but still a problem.  For one thing, cursing is harmful enough that I'd want to see +5 Cards or drop the price.  But never mind:  the main problem is that once the curses run out, they become juggernauts.  This is a fairly exhaustively discussed in other threads in this subforum (and has an entry in my fan card guide).  The easiest fix is "Gain a curse.  If you do...."  Alternately, invent a "curse token," something that's worth -1 VP at the end of the game but is unlimited and doesn't go into your deck.  If you do that, note that curse tokens are a LOT less harmful (usually) than curse cards, so you have to take that into account when adjusting the power level of the card as a whole.

Quote
Sewers – Action-Victory – 5$
“Worth 1 Victory for every 3 cards with a cost of 0$ in your deck (rounded down).” / “Trash a card from your hand. Gain a number of Coppers equal to its cost in coins."

Now that's synergy.  I like that.  I'd suggest trying a cost of $4, not for power-level reasons but just because that makes it a much easier card to try to race for when you're playing a Copper strategy, as you would be if you played this card at all.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 23, 2011, 11:08:13 am
firstly, what do you guys think of rinkworks suggestions?

secondly, here are some maybe changes... things i'm considering based on rinkworks suggestions...

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Rats."

Plague Doctor – Action-Reaction – 3$
+2$ "During your Buy Phase, cards from the Plague expansion cost 1$ less, but not less than 0$." / “When you would gain a card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, instead, trash that card; then at the start of your next turn, +1 Action and return this to your hand.”

Relief – Treasure – 4$
+0$, +1 Buy, “When you play this, count the cards in the trash pile. If there are... 0 to 3 cards; +1$ /4 to 6 cards; +2$ / more than 6 cards; +3$.”

Morgue – Action – 5$
 “Gain a curse. if you do, +4 cards. Otherwise, +2 cards and you may trash a card from your hand."

Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 23, 2011, 11:34:40 am
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. During your Buy phase, you may buy a Rats even if you have no Buys left."
This is (a) grotesquely overpowered for its price and (b) a perpetual motion machine. Also, as written, the first person to play a Bridge, Quarry, Highway or Princess can then empty the Rats pile.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 23, 2011, 11:38:37 am
@Jack: thanks for the catch. what do you think of the previous version of Rats, which gained a Curse when you used the second one? rinkworks thought it underpowered. or what about this version?

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Rats."

Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 23, 2011, 11:43:25 am
Cards that gain Curses when you play them I would need to see in action. I'd specifically need to see them in action in Trader games, in Watchtower games, and in games with neither.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 23, 2011, 11:47:01 am
or what about this version?

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Rats."
Congratulations. You may have found the only possible kingdom card that makes Woodcutter/Woodcutter a good opening.

(A more serious response: the first person to get his Rats chaining will empty the Rats pile, and then he'll have a deck that can generate arbitrarily many actions as needed. Do you see the problem with this?)
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 23, 2011, 11:56:02 am
i've decided to make the change to Relief official. i just like the new version so much better than any previous one.

Relief – Treasure – 4$
+0$, +1 Buy, “When you play this, count the cards in the trash pile. If there are... 0 to 3 cards; +1$ / 4 to 6 cards; +2$ / more than 6 cards; +3$.”

but the jury's still out on the others, especially Rats. which version is the best, in your opinion? i like each of them for different reasons:
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play (including this one), immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Curse."
 or...
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play (including this one), immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Rats."
 or...
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 3 Rats in play (including this one), immediately trash them."
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on November 23, 2011, 11:58:29 am
or what about this version?

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Rats."
Congratulations. You may have found the only possible kingdom card that makes Woodcutter/Woodcutter a good opening.

(A more serious response: the first person to get his Rats chaining will empty the Rats pile, and then he'll have a deck that can generate arbitrarily many actions as needed. Do you see the problem with this?)

I wonder if we're interpreting the card differently.  The way I read it -- which may not be the intended way -- the first Rats is a cantrip, the second is a Lab/Village.  But then, since both Rats are discarded, the third Rats you play is only a cantrip again.  The fourth is another Lab/Village.  I don't see this has being very powerful, ultimately.  Considering how hard it is to link Fool's Gold, Crossroads, and Treasure Map together, I'd say this is usually a useless card and, when it hits, has the least benefit of any of those others.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: ChaosRed on November 23, 2011, 12:04:24 pm
One "advantage" to Rats is, you are pretty much guaranteed to pile-it once you buy two. That can be a useful thing in games.

I have tested variants that gain themselves as you play them, and it immediately opens up a fast opportunity to 3-pile. Games like that can be exciting, because you have to think about just how fast the game is going to be and it can change the structure of chasing Provinces (or it might not, chasing Provinces might still be the wiser route, which is good, that's what you want, you want alternate victory paths that sometimes work and sometimes don't).

I suspect, one of the things that makes Rats functional, isn't just the ability (which rinks breaks down perfectly), it's that its a virtual guarantee to pile without a lot of effort and without slowing you down on getting the other two piles to deplete.

Test it and see, I could be wrong, but the one card I had that provided this additional dynamic, was actually quite fun to both play and assess. It was a vastly different card and price, but cards that gain themselves and deplete their own supply make for some interesting tactics.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 23, 2011, 12:05:31 pm
@rinkworks: i hear you, but +2 Cards and +2 Actions at a 1$ cost is pretty good, and the first Rats helps you get to the 2nd if it isn't already in your hand. so, i'm trying to think of other ways to get more Rats into the deck to take advantage of this: 1) give them away during Buy phase, which Jack pointed out could easily be broken. 2) give them away when you use them, which Jack also thought would deplete the Rats pile, but i'm not so sure i'm with him on this one, or 3) my 3rd possible change (above) letting them go up to 3 rats high, but then trashing them, encouraging a Rats player to buy more simply based on possible power level.

please tell me which of 3 Rats options i've listed in Reply #35 you guys like best!
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on November 23, 2011, 12:15:31 pm
@rinkworks: i hear you, but +2 Cards and +2 Actions at a 1$ cost is pretty good, and the first Rats helps you get to the 2nd if it isn't already in your hand.

The first Rats doesn't help you at all.  +1 Card, +1 Action only gets you back to the hand you'd have had if you hadn't had that card at all.  As for +2 Cards, +2 Actions being great, yes it is.  But it's not as good as the $4 the second Fool's Gold gives you, or the four Golds Treasure Map gives you.  In fact, playing two Rats only gives you ONE extra card and ONE extra action above and beyond what you'd have had if you hadn't bought or played ANY Rats.  It's an extremely meager benefit for something you have to collide to earn.

The fact that it's a one-time bonus, too, instead of something you can chain like Laboratory (the chances of being able to chain four or more are extremely remote) makes it weaker still.

So far, I think the "gain a Rats" variation is the best one (provided my understanding, rather than Jack's, is what you intend), but I'm kind of doubtful that the card can really be balanced at all.  There's a reason, by the way, that there are no $1 cards.  A lot of it has to do with how easy it would be to deplete a pile of $1 cards if there are extra buys in play.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 23, 2011, 12:21:33 pm
I wonder if we're interpreting the card differently.  The way I read it -- which may not be the intended way -- the first Rats is a cantrip, the second is a Lab/Village.  But then, since both Rats are discarded, the third Rats you play is only a cantrip again.  The fourth is another Lab/Village.  I don't see this has being very powerful, ultimately.  Considering how hard it is to link Fool's Gold, Crossroads, and Treasure Map together, I'd say this is usually a useless card and, when it hits, has the least benefit of any of those others.
I think the discarding has a large effect here: When you've played two of them for the Village-Lab effect, they then go into your discard pile, so they can be called again... and again... and again... (this is, I grant you, thematically appropriate for rats). A sufficiently rat-infested deck can probably play as many terminals as it likes.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: ChaosRed on November 23, 2011, 12:27:26 pm
I think the discarding has a large effect here: When you've played two of them for the Village-Lab effect, they then go into your discard pile, so they can be called again... and again... and again... (this is, I grant you, thematically appropriate for rats). A sufficiently rat-infested deck can probably play as many terminals as it likes.

And it is easily depleted...really guys I can't emphasize enough how this changes the tactics of a kingdom. All it takes is one easy, effortless depletion to really change the entire dynamic of a kingdom.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 23, 2011, 01:33:03 pm
thanks for the input guys.
based on all your concerns, i think this is the version i'm going to go with:

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 3 Rats in play (including this one), immediately put them into your discard pile."

i think the possible power is enough to tempt folks into using extra Buys to pick them up. and they're fun to play with, and that should be taken into consideration. it's not all numbers.
rinkworks is wrong about the 1st Rat doing nothing but replacing itself. it also sets up the 2nd and 3rd Rats. this is crucial when considering their power. the power of the 3rd Rats justifies the weakness of the 1st one. going up to 3 Rats makes the netgain +3 Cards (rather than the +1 Card from 2 Rats played, as rinkworks pointed out).
as far as the 1$ cost, i think it's justified and fits/works.

as far as this being the best/perfect Dominion card. well, they can't all be, can they? as long as it's not broken and still useful, i like Rats enough to keep it. the flavor trumps minor questions about its possible utility.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Octo on November 23, 2011, 02:00:36 pm
I think you're both wrong - the first Rats does absolutely nothing!! The first time you play a Rats there are, unfortunately, no Rats in play. So you get nothing. Or at least that's how I understand it (considering that you can play cards without them ever being in play with KC/TR). So I think the wording needs to be fixed. :)

Strange variation suggestion (but cornucopia messes with the basic rules a fair bit here so...) - if the Rats get hammered, have you considered having a stack of 20? I think +1 card, +1 action for the first Rats is ok, I mean, pawn often gets used for that, and great halls have that and only cost one more than an estate for the luxury.

As for gaining a curse....dunno, seems a bit rough. Why not have it trash one of the rats instead?

Relief - in trashing games, remodel games and multi-player this will be strictly better than Gold in no time - significantly cheaper and with a +Buy to boot. That's not good in my opinion. The times when there's useful stuff in the trash is not that often, I'll give you that, but the time when there's 6 or more cards in the trash is...well, that's pretty often I'd say. Often by the end of turn 4 in a 3 or 4 player game. You could up the card count, but would risk gimping it in 2 player.

Relief and Morgue both work too well with Chapel. Open Chapel, Relief - then trash 4, relief is now worth $2 with a +buy. Next time chapel shows, Relief is a gold. And you have free +buy so you can hammer the fuck of out them, with the hammer-the-fuck-out-of-them factor being self-multiplying by virtue of being able to freely play treasures, thus getting tons of +buys with the cash to boot. Morgue: Chapel allows you to remove the weakness of Morgue while reaping the most benefits with a concentrated deck. Still, Chapel is a powerful card and has that kind of effect. Not sure how people feels about this in perspective with other Chapel combos (eg Fool's Gold seems similar-ish)
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 23, 2011, 02:06:29 pm
I think you're both wrong - the first Rats does absolutely nothing!! The first time you play a Rats there are, unfortunately, no Rats in play. So you get nothing. Or at least that's how I understand it (considering that you can play cards without them ever being in play with KC/TR). So I think the wording needs to be fixed. :)
it's my understanding that a card being played is 'in play' at the same moment. which is to say a card doesn't 'do' anything (including count stuff), until it's 'in play.'
if this is not the case, please let me know, rules gurus!

and here's another version of Relief...
Relief – Treasure – 4$
+1 Buy, “If you play no other Treasure cards this turn, this is worth +4$. Otherwise, this is worth +1$."
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Deadlock39 on November 23, 2011, 02:34:24 pm
plasticbrain is correct on the effect of playing the first Rats.  For precedence see Conspirator.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Octo on November 23, 2011, 03:02:49 pm
Conspirator goes off actions in play? News to me. It goes off number of actions that you have played, which is different. Doesn't mean I'm right of course, but that example doesn't prove the point. It's not important either way though really.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 23, 2011, 03:06:44 pm
thanks Deadlock39 for the clarification.

so i'm thinking of changing the name of Inheritance to Morgue, and vice versa and then the new Inheritance (old Morgue) would be this:

Inheritance – Action – 4$
“Gain a curse. If you do, gain a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."

whatd'ya think of this?
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on November 23, 2011, 03:40:01 pm
Regarding whether a card just played is "in play," Octo is right that Conspirator is not a good example of this, since it goes off actions played.  But Bank and Horn of Plenty suggest that a card just played is indeed a card in play.  Attack cards are also subtle evidence of this:  Moat/Secret Chamber/Horse Traders trigger "when another player plays an attack card," during which time the attack card is in play.  Thus, it is certainly in play by the time the attacker can get back to acting upon it.

That said, it does make sense that Rats should have a "(counting this)" clarifier, just as Bank and Horn of Plenty (and coincidentally Conspirator) also do.

rinkworks is wrong about the 1st Rat doing nothing but replacing itself. it also sets up the 2nd and 3rd Rats. this is crucial when considering their power.

You're arguing semantics.  Obviously the first Rat paves the way for the second, but that doesn't make the first Rat powerful.  It makes the second Rat powerful.  The reason why it's important to look at it that way is because there may only BE one Rat.  And in that case, the first Rat, as I said, does nothing.

Fool's Gold is the same way.  You don't say, "Well, the second Fool's Gold is worth $4, which is pretty great, but WOW -- the FIRST Fool's Gold enables that, so it's extra powerful!"  On the contrary, the first Fool's Gold is a Copper and always a Copper and never anything but a Copper, and the whole reason you can price a $4 treasure at $2 is because that first one is so terrible.

That said, the version you have now, going up to three, is pretty stupendous.  You've basically got a Laboratory chain now that's a little harder to kick off but which provides lots of actions.  The reason why only going up to 2 is a lot weaker is because that first Rat doesn't really help you connect multiple Rats together.  But the second Rat does, and after playing the third you've just drawn enough cards into your hand that you'll probably easily be able to suck more into your hand.  Again, look at Laboratory chains to see this in action:  after three plays of a Laboratory, you'll have drawn exactly as many cards as three plays of a Rats will get you.  And usually after three plays of a Laboratory, you have no problem playing all the other Laboratories in your deck.

The difference is:  (1) after playing three Rats, you put those three Rats back into your deck to draw to and play, and (2) after three Rats, you have more than just your one action but all the actions you're ever likely to need.

All for a price of $1?  This is $5 easy now.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on November 23, 2011, 03:48:41 pm
Morgue – Action – 5$
 “Gain a curse. if you do, +4 cards. Otherwise, +2 cards and you may trash a card from your hand."

Inheritance – Action – 4$
“Gain a curse. If you do, gain a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."

I think you're underestimating the harm curses do.  Remember, being able to open Witch or Mountebank is sometimes enough to decide the game outright.  In this version of Inheritance, your average card value increases more if you just take the Silver.  So the Gold/Curse option is a worse deal strictly in monetary terms, never mind the negative effect of a Curse on your score.  The one good thing about the Gold/Curse option is that it increases the variance of your hands, which can be a good thing, but I can't see that making up for junking your own deck.

In the first example, you'd definitely never take the curse.  +2 Cards and optionally trashing a card is Masquerade without the card passing, which, despite being the flashiest part of that card, is the least important.  Morgue + Big Money, never playing Morgue with the curse option, probably wins most games.  When I suggested an "if you do" clause, I was not thinking it would have an "otherwise" clause at all.  You can have one, but it shouldn't be outright better than the "if you do" part.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 23, 2011, 03:57:26 pm
rink:
Inheritance – Action – 4$
“Gain a curse. If you do, gain a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."

i'm pretty sure this, game rule-wise, means: you HAVE to gain a curse if one is available. only if none are available to gain does the 'otherwise' kick in.
so at the start of the game, it gains curses and golds. only once curses have run out, will it start gaining you silvers instead.

you're treating the card as if it says:
"You may gain a Curse. If you do.... etc."


Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Octo on November 23, 2011, 03:59:42 pm
Aahh, bank, of course. I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 23, 2011, 04:17:38 pm
All for a price of $1?  This is $5 easy now.

all for the price of...
$3 ($1 for each Rats) and 3 cards (as opposed to a big effect on one card). big difference. not to mention you have to buy them on at least 3 occassions to have the 3 in your deck.

the more i thnk about it, the more i think going up to 3 Rats is quite fair. and, oddly, rinkworks, you're the one who convinced me of this, with your evaluation of the netgain. only the 3rd Rats does anything truly big, and it's an unlikely event, unless you really commit to then, which itself is unlikely. and the 3rd Rats isn't gamebreaking or out of hand. just big.

but how about this then?:

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play (including this one), immediately put them into the discard pile and each other player gains a Curse."

^ is this enough incentive to play them now? or is this crazy powerful because it mimics a Witch at the cost of 2$ and the luck of getting 2 copies in your hand.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 23, 2011, 04:29:24 pm
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play (including this one), immediately put them into the discard pile and each other player gains a Curse."

^ is this enough incentive to play them now? or is this crazy powerful because it mimics a Witch at the cost of 2$ and the luck of getting 2 copies in your hand.
Cantrip cursers that can potentially be played arbitrarily many times in one round? Uh, yeah, that's enough incentive to play them. The game will degenerate into a race to see who can buy the most rats and then play them over and over again to empty the curse pile. I think I shall call it a Rats race.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: ChaosRed on November 23, 2011, 04:30:45 pm
Here, in all humility is my suggestion:

Rats – Action – 2$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action
If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile and then reveal your hand, if you have no action cards in your hand, gain a Rats.

My thoughts are this:

1. 1$ cards create problems, I think creating a balanced one is really tough, keep it at 2$, it becomes easier to measure and contrast with other cards.

2. The "fast depletion" aspect of Rats is both a feature and a problem. It's a feature because its one of the key reasons someone would want to invest in the card, also its thematic that you wind up littering your deck with them. I like thematic cards, so trying to make the depletion aspect of the card work, is something I think is worth solving. But the depletion feature is a problem, because you can't make that depletion too fast, otherwise the first person to chain two, will likely deplete the pile very quickly.

This card provides solutions to both problems. It sticks the card at 2$. Now you can decide if you want a Pawn or a Rats. This is useful, it helps you judge the card easier, (both in-game and at the design phase).

In fact, the first Rat is a basic Pawn (the most commonly selected utility of Pawn anyway) and the second is a Lab. That's it, that's all you get, then you discard the Rats and start the process over. That's not stunning for two 2$ purchases, but it isn't horrible. But what you really get is a cheap, effortless gain of a Rats (assuming your hand has no more Rats in it). This is the appeal you want. You want Rats to be a bit cumbersome, but they get you to a 3-pile condition, which at times is a sublime way to win.

This isn't the most elegant solution, but I think it might behoove you to think more in this direction.

The solution here makes the free Rats gain, on the condition you have none left, which really governs it to just one Rats gain per turn (at most). This helps govern the "lottery" effect of chaining early and often to deplete the entire pile. Also it pretty makes having an "odd number" of Rats slightly less appealing than an even number. You get to the point where on the second Rats, you kind of hope you don't draw the third, otherwise you may need to spend a buy getting a Rats. There's some playfulness there I think you might enjoy.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 23, 2011, 04:39:54 pm
okay, forget the cursing rats.

i think you all have seen that i listen to your suggestions and incorporate many/most of them.

but i think my current Rats version (going up to 3) is actually the best. it provides an advantage to commiting to them, without the necessity of commiting to them (getting 2 in a turn is still good). it's a fun card; not a broken card. the low cost will allow players to spend leftover coins/buys on them until they just might reach a critical mass, which is unlikely enough to be fair.

i will playtest with this version and if it turns out too powerful, i'll have to nerf it. but until then, please comment on some of the new versions of other cards i've posted, as i need feedback on those as well please! especially the new Plague Doctor, Relief and Inheritance.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 23, 2011, 04:46:48 pm
The unusual problems relating to Rats are resulting from a very unusual feature of it: it moves itself to the discard pile when it has been played.

Cards don't usually do that. Usually played Actions stay in the play area until clean-up, with a few moving to the Trash pile or the Island mat or somewhere else you can't get at them.  The issue with a card's moving itself to the discard pile once it has been played is that it then becomes eligible to be played again during the same turn.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: ChaosRed on November 23, 2011, 04:52:52 pm
Cards don't usually do that. Usually played Actions stay in the play area until clean-up, with a few moving to the Trash pile or the Island mat or somewhere else you can't get at them.  The issue with a card's moving itself to the discard pile once it has been played is that it then becomes eligible to be played again during the same turn.

True, true, but in this case, all you get is more Rats. I mean at some point, if this is all your engine will do, and you don't really go too far. It's the "village idiot" problem all over again. I mean you could set them aside on a mat or something, but we'll lose a lot of the card's flavor and theme. And what we're really talking about is a Pawn, then a Lab effect. Why worry that you can chain that with Rats after Rats?

I think ensuring there's never more than +1 Action (so it only adds cards on the second play) helps the danger. Withouth actions on the stack, the engine is a little harder to break. Adding actions as well, ensures you can slip in a terminal along the way and the thing becomes very broken quickly. +1 Action limits quickly how much you can break it. Sure you can add Villages, but your Villages will slow your Rats engine down.

I like the fact the Rats can "come back" it makes the card unique, you just need to govern the thing carefully to make it work. At some point if your deck is dense enough, all your Rats do is draw more Rats, infuriating, but hey isn't that what Rats are like once you start getting infested with them? The theme of the card is fun...which is why I think the card has promise, if we can just guide plastic to a version of it that's not entirely broken.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 23, 2011, 06:27:52 pm
Cards don't usually do that. Usually played Actions stay in the play area until clean-up, with a few moving to the Trash pile or the Island mat or somewhere else you can't get at them.  The issue with a card's moving itself to the discard pile once it has been played is that it then becomes eligible to be played again during the same turn.

True, true, but in this case, all you get is more Rats. I mean at some point, if this is all your engine will do, and you don't really go too far. It's the "village idiot" problem all over again. I mean you could set them aside on a mat or something, but we'll lose a lot of the card's flavor and theme. And what we're really talking about is a Pawn, then a Lab effect. Why worry that you can chain that with Rats after Rats?
Well, there's the practical issue: a sufficiently annoying player could just lock the game up, preventing anyone else from winning because they never get to their turn.

On the balance issue: Laboratory is a very strong card, and the generic cantrip effect of a single rats is neither strong nor weak. If we look at a comparable sort of card:

Pseudorats:
+1 Card
+1 Action
If an even number of Pseudorats (including this one) are in play, +1 Card.

I can't be sure, but I think Pseudorats would likely be balanced at $3; its power seems to be on a par with that of Wishing Well. Rats is Pseudorats but with the ability to gain free Rats and the endless recycling power. It's got to be better than a $2 card.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: ChaosRed on November 23, 2011, 07:04:13 pm
Well, there's the practical issue: a sufficiently annoying player could just lock the game up, preventing anyone else from winning because they never get to their turn.

Yeah its true, there is a potential for an infinite loop if you have just three remaining Rats.

Quote
Pseudorats:
+1 Card
+1 Action
If an even number of Pseudorats (including this one) are in play, +1 Card.

Nicely done. A mat would work too of course, where Rats go to a Mat rather than a discard pile. Then go to the discard pile when the turn ends.

Yours is cleaner, not sure I'd pay 3 for it, but if there was no other engine-enabler I might. I think I'd just rather have one Lab though than two Pseudorats, mostly because you need to draw two to really make it worthwhile, that might be too much work just to save yourself 2 bucks.

I still very much like the notion of Rats gaining more Rats. Thematically, that's really want you want to achieve. The idea is you easily obtain Rats, they are annoying cantrips that sometimes become a Laboratory (which in itself is great thematic synergy with Laboratory if you think about it), and they keep growing in your deck. I love that whole idea. Your idea has half the equation, but is missing the "wow, that's really clever" element from a thematic stand point.

Solid, solid way to word the primary ability though, nicely crafted.

Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: dondon151 on November 23, 2011, 07:16:54 pm
You could just set aside all Rats in play when there are 2 Rats in play. This is the wording that Library uses to prevent you from putting unwanted Actions back into your discard pile. You then discard the set aside cards during Clean-up.

I do like the theme of pseudoRats, though. To me, the "even number" condition implies Rats breeding, thus gaining you more Rats. The wording on pseudoRats is also less clunky than using the set-aside, then discard mechanic.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 23, 2011, 09:34:39 pm
firstly, you guys are great for putting up with my stubbornness. secondly, please talk about something other than Rats! i need help with the other cards too!
thirdly, after playtesting, the best Rats version seems to be:

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Rats."

it was really the card draw of the 3rd Rats that was the problem and would have had to been done at a higher cost, which i really don't want to do. this design keeps them cheap, is flavorful and still useful. because the 1st Rats replace themselves, they're never a problem to have in your hand, and you feel lucky when you get that second one. the extra Rats is a mixed blessing. i like this.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on November 23, 2011, 09:49:24 pm
rink:
Inheritance – Action – 4$
“Gain a curse. If you do, gain a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."

i'm pretty sure this, game rule-wise, means: you HAVE to gain a curse if one is available.

Ah, you're right, yeah.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on November 23, 2011, 09:55:45 pm
All for a price of $1?  This is $5 easy now.

all for the price of...
$3 ($1 for each Rats) and 3 cards (as opposed to a big effect on one card). big difference. not to mention you have to buy them on at least 3 occassions to have the 3 in your deck.

the more i thnk about it, the more i think going up to 3 Rats is quite fair. and, oddly, rinkworks, you're the one who convinced me of this, with your evaluation of the netgain. only the 3rd Rats does anything truly big, and it's an unlikely event, unless you really commit to then, which itself is unlikely. and the 3rd Rats isn't gamebreaking or out of hand. just big.

Again, compare with Laboratory.  Netgain of only 1 card and 0 actions, yet it not only costs $5 but is one of the strongest $5s.  Again, a Rats chain is a little harder to kick off (roughly 20% harder).  But playing three Rats is better than playing three Laboratories, because you get multiple actions and can reuse the Rats after each triplet.  The difference in cost?  $3 for 3 cards vs. $15 for 3 cards.  If you think that's about right, I certainly can't tell you anything different.

I really think this conversation is past the point where it's useful.  There is really no shortcut to testing out your cards yourself and seeing how they play.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 23, 2011, 10:29:15 pm
Relief – Treasure – 4$
+1 Buy, “If you play no other Treasure cards this turn, this is worth +4$. Otherwise, this is worth +1$."
How does the card know whether you are going to play other Treasure cards this turn?

Specifically: have you thought about this card's interaction with Black Market?
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 23, 2011, 11:01:56 pm
Specifically: have you thought about this card's interaction with Black Market?
i see your point. does this fix it?

Relief – Treasure – 4$
+0$, +1 Buy, “If this is the first Treasure card you played this turn, this is worth 4$ and you cannot play further Treasure cards this turn. Otherwise, this is worth 1$."

@rinkworks: did you notice my post about testing the Rats above your last post? i basically found that you were right, and came up with a version of Rats that keeps it weak (as a $1 card should be) but useful (in duplicate) while not too useful.

BTW... HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO MY AMERICAN FRIENDS!
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on November 24, 2011, 09:27:18 am
@rinkworks: did you notice my post about testing the Rats above your last post? i basically found that you were right, and came up with a version of Rats that keeps it weak (as a $1 card should be) but useful (in duplicate) while not too useful.

That does look better, yeah.  I'm still curious about the ability of Rats to recycle back into play, but I think that danger is dramatically less when you can only go up to 2.  Let me know how it works after you've playtested a batch of games.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 24, 2011, 10:15:01 am
Specifically: have you thought about this card's interaction with Black Market?
i see your point. does this fix it?

Relief – Treasure – 4$
+0$, +1 Buy, “If this is the first Treasure card you played this turn, this is worth 4$ and you cannot play further Treasure cards this turn. Otherwise, this is worth 1$."
Legit with the cards as they currently exist (although it could cause problems with a hypothetical Action that automatically plays a Treasure), but extremely specialized. I doubt I'd pay $4 for this in most decks.

A better way to write this might be:

+1 Buy, +1$, “If this is the first Treasure card you have played this turn, +3$ and discard all other Treasure cards from your hand."

That has the advantage of working within the normal rules of the game and not breaking if my hypothetical TreasureGolem arrives; it is otherwise the same as your proposed card except in a Black Market game.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 24, 2011, 12:11:30 pm
Specifically: have you thought about this card's interaction with Black Market?
i see your point. does this fix it?

Relief – Treasure – 4$
+0$, +1 Buy, “If this is the first Treasure card you played this turn, this is worth 4$ and you cannot play further Treasure cards this turn. Otherwise, this is worth 1$."
Legit with the cards as they currently exist (although it could cause problems with a hypothetical Action that automatically plays a Treasure), but extremely specialized. I doubt I'd pay $4 for this in most decks.

A better way to write this might be:

+1 Buy, +1$, “If this is the first Treasure card you have played this turn, +3$ and discard all other Treasure cards from your hand."

That has the advantage of working within the normal rules of the game and not breaking if my hypothetical TreasureGolem arrives; it is otherwise the same as your proposed card except in a Black Market game.
i'm going to drop in down to 3$ for testing. but i'm going to leave the text i came up with because there are other things you can do with Treasures left in your hand, like Cellar and such. thanks!
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 24, 2011, 12:21:31 pm
Specifically: have you thought about this card's interaction with Black Market?
i see your point. does this fix it?

Relief – Treasure – 4$
+0$, +1 Buy, “If this is the first Treasure card you played this turn, this is worth 4$ and you cannot play further Treasure cards this turn. Otherwise, this is worth 1$."
Legit with the cards as they currently exist (although it could cause problems with a hypothetical Action that automatically plays a Treasure), but extremely specialized. I doubt I'd pay $4 for this in most decks.

A better way to write this might be:

+1 Buy, +1$, “If this is the first Treasure card you have played this turn, +3$ and discard all other Treasure cards from your hand."

That has the advantage of working within the normal rules of the game and not breaking if my hypothetical TreasureGolem arrives; it is otherwise the same as your proposed card except in a Black Market game.
i'm going to drop in down to 3$ for testing. but i'm going to leave the text i came up with because there are other things you can do with Treasures left in your hand, like Cellar and such. thanks!
Not in your Buy phase you can't, which is the only time you can normally play Treasure cards.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 24, 2011, 12:36:26 pm
right! duh!  :P maybe i'll switch to your wording then... thanks.

new Rats... halves the bonus given for extra Rats and distributes that bonus in a more power-sensitive manner.

Rats - Action - 1$
+1 Card, +1 Action, "If there are exactly 2 Rats in play, +1 Action. If there are 3 Rats in play, +1 Card and immediately put all Rats in play into your discard pile."
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 26, 2011, 04:36:20 pm
Relief – Treasure – 3$
+1 Buy, +1$, “If this is the first time you played a Treasure card this turn, you may immediately reveal your hand and discard all other Treasure cards from it. If you do, +3$."

Rats – Action-Curse – 1$
"Worth -1 Victory" / +1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. Rats can only be gained by buying them during your Buy phase."

^now Rats are also Curses. it was too much to have them handing out Curses on top of what they already do, but i wanted them to interact with Curses in some way. i think this is a nice downside to their strength in numbers. that last sentence is on there to allow me to call them Curses; otherwise, there'd be confusion everytime a card tells somebody to "gain a Curse."
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 26, 2011, 05:10:17 pm
Quote
Relief – Treasure – 3$
+1 Buy, +1$, “If this is the first time you played a Treasure card this turn, you may immediately reveal your hand and discard all other Treasure cards from it. If you do, +3$."
Looks nice.

Quote
Rats – Action-Curse – 1$
"Worth -1 Victory" / +1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. Rats can only be gained by buying them during your Buy phase."
Your last sentence sounds like a cure that's worse than the disease. If you don't want them treated as Curses for the purposes of, say, Mountebank, then create a new Subtype for them. It's not as if anything interacts with the Curse subtype.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 26, 2011, 05:30:40 pm
Quote
Rats – Action-Curse – 1$
"Worth -1 Victory" / +1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. Rats can only be gained by buying them during your Buy phase."
Your last sentence sounds like a cure that's worse than the disease. If you don't want them treated as Curses for the purposes of, say, Mountebank, then create a new Subtype for them. It's not as if anything interacts with the Curse subtype.
but i DO wanted them counted as Curses for such things like Mountebank and Fortune Teller. that's exactly the point. it's the whole "gain a Curse" thing that becomes tricky. that last sentence solves that while allowing them to still be Curses.

slight update to this card...
 from...
Inheritance – Action – 4$
“Gain a Curse. If you do, gain a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."
 to...
Inheritance – Action – 5$
“Gain a Curse. If you do, gain a Duchy and a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 26, 2011, 05:51:58 pm
Inheritance strikes me as very strong in combination with Watchtower and Trader and weak in their absence. This may or may not be the effect you are looking for.

The thing about your wording on Rats is that (a) it is a special-case rule, and special-case rules are annoying, and (b) it shuts down a lot of interesting interactions it might have with other kingdom cards.

(But, congratulations! You've managed to create a card that will be bought from the Black Market even less frequently than Treasure Map!)
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 26, 2011, 07:47:26 pm
Inheritance strikes me as very strong in combination with Watchtower and Trader and weak in their absence. This may or may not be the effect you are looking for.

The thing about your wording on Rats is that (a) it is a special-case rule, and special-case rules are annoying, and (b) it shuts down a lot of interesting interactions it might have with other kingdom cards.

(But, congratulations! You've managed to create a card that will be bought from the Black Market even less frequently than Treasure Map!)
the "special case' text on Rats doesn't really shut down many interactions. only ones that would have you gain it in other ways than buying it. like Workshop and... what?

and Inheritance doesn't work with Watchtower and Trader because of its "If you do... " text. right?

EDIT: i'm thinking of replacing Miracle with this card, or just adding this card. it was inspired by the Juggler thread and i really like it. what do you think?

Wheel of Fortune - Action - 4$
Reveal the top card of the Fortune deck. Gain a copy of that card. Shuffle the Fortune deck.
(Before the game, make a Fortune deck out of 3 copies of Gold, 2 copies of Duchy and 1 copy of Curse.)

and yet another go at the Rats...

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. If a player would gain a Curse, he may gain a Rats instead."
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 26, 2011, 08:08:45 pm
Inheritance strikes me as very strong in combination with Watchtower and Trader and weak in their absence. This may or may not be the effect you are looking for.

The thing about your wording on Rats is that (a) it is a special-case rule, and special-case rules are annoying, and (b) it shuts down a lot of interesting interactions it might have with other kingdom cards.

(But, congratulations! You've managed to create a card that will be bought from the Black Market even less frequently than Treasure Map!)
the "special case' text on Rats doesn't really shut down many interactions. only ones that would have you gain it in other ways than buying it. like Workshop and... what?
Ironworks, University, Upgrade, Swindler, Saboteur, Develop, Black Market, Border Village, Haggler, Remodel, Expand, Remake. It's quite a list.

Quote
and Inheritance doesn't work with Watchtower and Trader because of its "If you do... " text. right?
Inheritance with Watchtower usually becomes: Gain a Curse and trash it immediately, Gain a Duchy and trash it unless it's late in the game, Gain a Gold and top-deck it.
Inheritance with Trader becomes either: Gain a Silver, or: Gain a Curse, a Gold and a Silver.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 26, 2011, 08:21:43 pm
Inheritance strikes me as very strong in combination with Watchtower and Trader and weak in their absence. This may or may not be the effect you are looking for.

The thing about your wording on Rats is that (a) it is a special-case rule, and special-case rules are annoying, and (b) it shuts down a lot of interesting interactions it might have with other kingdom cards.

(But, congratulations! You've managed to create a card that will be bought from the Black Market even less frequently than Treasure Map!)
the "special case' text on Rats doesn't really shut down many interactions. only ones that would have you gain it in other ways than buying it. like Workshop and... what?
Ironworks, University, Upgrade, Swindler, Saboteur, Develop, Black Market, Border Village, Haggler, Remodel, Expand, Remake. It's quite a list.
well, i've realized that nobody's going to buy a Curse anyway, so i've dumped that idea. thanks for playing ;D

Inheritance with Watchtower usually becomes: Gain a Curse and trash it immediately, Gain a Duchy and trash it unless it's late in the game, Gain a Gold and top-deck it.
Inheritance with Trader becomes either: Gain a Silver, or: Gain a Curse, a Gold and a Silver.
with Watchtower: if you trash the Curse with Watchtower, then you can't gain the Gold&Duchy. you have to at least gain the Curse and then you can use Watchtower on either the Gold or Duchy, if you wish (possibly trashing the Duchy and putting the Gold on top of your deck) if you use the Watchtower on the Curse, you'll only gain a Silver.
with Trader: either Gain a Silver; or gain a Curse, a Gold and a Duchy (you can trader either of the last two for a Silver each)
i think these possible interactions are fair on a 5$ card. there are certainly stronger interactions on existing cards.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 26, 2011, 09:08:59 pm
with Watchtower: if you trash the Curse with Watchtower, then you can't gain the Gold&Duchy. you have to at least gain the Curse and then you can use Watchtower on either the Gold or Duchy, if you wish (possibly trashing the Duchy and putting the Gold on top of your deck) if you use the Watchtower on the Curse, you'll only gain a Silver.
You are wrong. Watchtower reacts to "if you gain", not "if you would gain". You do gain the Curse - and so Inheritance's clause is triggered - but you can then immediately trash it.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 26, 2011, 09:37:01 pm
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. If a player would gain a Curse, he may gain a Rats instead."
Is that red text a global rule for Rats games, or a rule for if a Rats has been played this turn? Either way, it breaks the Cursing attacks and Embargo.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 27, 2011, 01:32:12 am
You are wrong. Watchtower reacts to "if you gain", not "if you would gain". You do gain the Curse - and so Inheritance's clause is triggered - but you can then immediately trash it.
gotcha. thanks. i still think that's a fair interaction, if you happen to have those cards.

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. While Rats are in the supply, if a player gains a Curse, he may gain a Rats."

is this better? i dropped 'instead' so you gain the Curse AND a Rats. it is meant to be global.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 27, 2011, 12:24:31 pm
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. While Rats are in the supply, if a player gains a Curse, he may gain a Rats."

is this better? i dropped 'instead' so you gain the Curse AND a Rats. it is meant to be global.
That looks like a playtestable idea. It's still far too strong for a $1 card, mind; I'd test it at $5 and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 27, 2011, 03:35:54 pm
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. While Rats are in the supply, if a player gains a Curse, he may gain a Rats."

is this better? i dropped 'instead' so you gain the Curse AND a Rats. it is meant to be global.
That looks like a playtestable idea. It's still far too strong for a $1 card, mind; I'd test it at $5 and see how it goes.
look, nobody's gonna buy a card that does nothing for 5$. the 1$ price is necessary to tempt people into buying the first one. especially in non-Cursing games.
but i am gonna playtest this, as i have been playtesting all these cards.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 27, 2011, 04:35:12 pm
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. While Rats are in the supply, if a player gains a Curse, he may gain a Rats."

is this better? i dropped 'instead' so you gain the Curse AND a Rats. it is meant to be global.
That looks like a playtestable idea. It's still far too strong for a $1 card, mind; I'd test it at $5 and see how it goes.
look, nobody's gonna buy a card that does nothing for 5$. the 1$ price is necessary to tempt people into buying the first one. especially in non-Cursing games.
but i am gonna playtest this, as i have been playtesting all these cards.
People buy Cities all the time when all they're getting out of them is a Village effect - it's a calculated investment for when they become VillageLabs. This card is subject to the same sort of dynamic.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jimmmmm on November 27, 2011, 08:08:16 pm
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. While Rats are in the supply, if a player gains a Curse, he may gain a Rats."

is this better? i dropped 'instead' so you gain the Curse AND a Rats. it is meant to be global.
That looks like a playtestable idea. It's still far too strong for a $1 card, mind; I'd test it at $5 and see how it goes.
look, nobody's gonna buy a card that does nothing for 5$. the 1$ price is necessary to tempt people into buying the first one. especially in non-Cursing games.
but i am gonna playtest this, as i have been playtesting all these cards.
People buy Cities all the time when all they're getting out of them is a Village effect - it's a calculated investment for when they become VillageLabs. This card is subject to the same sort of dynamic.

I think that because of the discard-after-two clause it's not worth $5. Keep in mind that the third one goes back to being a regular old cantrip. Assuming you can get them together, every two is worth a Village and a Lab, so depending on how often that will tend to happen,  I'd say it should be worth either $3 or $4.

Actually, come to think of it, this card is broken. Think of a deck containing four Rats and the Diadem. Play and discard Rats 1 and 2. Play and discard Rats 3 and 4. You now have Rats 1 and 2 in your hand again, and 3 actions. Repeat as many times as you like. You now have limitless $. Of course, you're still limited by how many buys you have, but an infinite source of anything is not a good idea. In fact, it's probably never going to be a good idea to be able to discard a card after you play it such that it's possible to play it again. Certainly not a cantrip. But even if it's not, it'll still be possible to have enough card drawers and/or spare actions to play a card again and again and again in one turn.

A fix for this would be to set aside every two Rats and discard them at your next clean-up phase, or to only give you the second card and action if there are an even number of Rats in play. Both of these would require some clunkier wording, but would be equivalent to the current version other than not allowing you to play each card more than once per turn (or, you know, thrice if you KC it, but you know what I mean).
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 27, 2011, 10:53:37 pm
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. While Rats are in the supply, if a player gains a Curse, he may gain a Rats."

is this better? i dropped 'instead' so you gain the Curse AND a Rats. it is meant to be global.
That looks like a playtestable idea. It's still far too strong for a $1 card, mind; I'd test it at $5 and see how it goes.
look, nobody's gonna buy a card that does nothing for 5$. the 1$ price is necessary to tempt people into buying the first one. especially in non-Cursing games.
but i am gonna playtest this, as i have been playtesting all these cards.
People buy Cities all the time when all they're getting out of them is a Village effect - it's a calculated investment for when they become VillageLabs. This card is subject to the same sort of dynamic.

I think that because of the discard-after-two clause it's not worth $5. Keep in mind that the third one goes back to being a regular old cantrip. Assuming you can get them together, every two is worth a Village and a Lab, so depending on how often that will tend to happen,  I'd say it should be worth either $3 or $4.

Actually, come to think of it, this card is broken. Think of a deck containing four Rats and the Diadem. Play and discard Rats 1 and 2. Play and discard Rats 3 and 4. You now have Rats 1 and 2 in your hand again, and 3 actions. Repeat as many times as you like. You now have limitless $. Of course, you're still limited by how many buys you have, but an infinite source of anything is not a good idea. In fact, it's probably never going to be a good idea to be able to discard a card after you play it such that it's possible to play it again. Certainly not a cantrip. But even if it's not, it'll still be possible to have enough card drawers and/or spare actions to play a card again and again and again in one turn.

A fix for this would be to set aside every two Rats and discard them at your next clean-up phase, or to only give you the second card and action if there are an even number of Rats in play. Both of these would require some clunkier wording, but would be equivalent to the current version other than not allowing you to play each card more than once per turn (or, you know, thrice if you KC it, but you know what I mean).
first of all, i'm sure there are many 'broken' 5 card 'comboes' already in the game. secondly, how do Rats 3&4 assure that Rats 1&2 are in your hand? they don't. why does being efficient when you have 4 or more of them in your deck make them broken? in my playtesting, there are other things you want to buy in the early game rather than "waste" your single buy on a Rats. a player would have to commit to Rats from the get go for this scenario to even be a possibility. yes, when they went up to 3 they were broken. but only going up to 2, i think you guys are giving them too much credit.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jimmmmm on November 27, 2011, 11:18:24 pm
Combos, or efficiency, or cost, or whether or not you want to buy it, or how good the card is, or any amount of playtesting has nothing to do with it being broken. It's broken because it's possible to get an unlimited number of actions. It's broken with or without Diadem, but Diadem is an example of how you can use it to get an unlimited number of coins.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 27, 2011, 11:22:47 pm
in my playtesting, there are other things you want to buy in the early game rather than "waste" your single buy on a Rats. a player would have to commit to Rats from the get go for this scenario to even be a possibility. yes, when they went up to 3 they were broken. but only going up to 2, i think you guys are giving them too much credit.
Who says you only have a single buy? There are many cards you can buy on turns 1 and 2 that give you +Buy.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 28, 2011, 03:44:02 am
Combos, or efficiency, or cost, or whether or not you want to buy it, or how good the card is, or any amount of playtesting has nothing to do with it being broken. It's broken because it's possible to get an unlimited number of actions. It's broken with or without Diadem, but Diadem is an example of how you can use it to get an unlimited number of coins.
ok, it took me a while to puzzle out what you guys meant. i see now that Rats can be broken IF you buy a ton of them right at the start. you could have just said that. :-\ :)
so, i need to fix my broken Rats...

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card, +1 Action, "If there are an even number of Rats in play, +1 Card, +1 Action. While Rats are in the supply, if a player gains a Curse, he may gain a Rats."

^apparently, this is the only way they'll work the way i want them to. i was really attached to the "... per Rats in play" text, but there seems to be no simple way to make it work. i think this eliminates the final major problem with these critters. let me know...
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jimmmmm on November 28, 2011, 08:13:10 am
Okay, that's an improvement. Now about the cost. I don't see whole $1 gap thing as an issue. In this case, since it's a cantrip, it usually improves Upgrade/Remake since Rats will usually be better than nothing.

What you're saying will be true in some cases. But with some handsize-increasing and/or trashing, it will often be relatively easy to be playing multiple Rats quite regularly. Also, there are plenty of other cards that often "don't do anything". Menagerie, Village,  Pearl Diver, Hamlet, Shanty Town, just off the top of my head. I suppose it's most directly comparable with Fool's Gold. It doesn't really matter that the first one does nothing, because if you're playing with a plan, you're not going to buy exactly one.

As I've said before, if you can get them going, they're worth somewhere between a Village and a Lab (probably less though, as you'll often play an odd amount). I would say they're better than the likes of Pearl Diver, because there will be times when you REALLY want even the minimal extra actions you can get from Rats.

So I would probably price them around the $3 or $4 range. But hey, if you particularly want them to be $1, I don't think it would be game-breaking, just a little underpriced. And of course if you think that's the price that would bring the most enjoyment to the game, then that's the best reason for any sort of decision like this.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 30, 2011, 07:52:03 am
so, from the beginning, i wanted the Rats card to do 3 things: 1) be weak enough to justify a 1$ cost, 2) be strong enough in multiple to convince players to buy them, and 3) interact with Curses somehow. after a lot of thought, and a lot of versions, i think i've finally found something that satisfies all 3 conditions...

Rats – Action-Attack – 1$
+1 Card, +1 Action, "If this is the third time you played a Rats this turn, each other player gains a Curse."

also a proposed addition to Inheritance to keep it from being abused...

Inheritance – Action – 5$
“You may not reveal Reaction cards while this in play. Gain a Curse. If you do, gain a Duchy and a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on November 30, 2011, 09:19:34 am
so, from the beginning, i wanted the Rats card to do 3 things: 1) be weak enough to justify a 1$ cost, 2) be strong enough in multiple to convince players to buy them, and 3) interact with Curses somehow. after a lot of thought, and a lot of versions, i think i've finally found something that satisfies all 3 conditions...

Rats – Action-Attack – 1$
+1 Card, +1 Action, "If this is the third time you played a Rats this turn, each other player gains a Curse."

Your first two conditions are usually going to be mutually-exclusive.  The very fact that a card could be powerful in multiples is why it probably can't cost $1: because $1 makes it easy to pick up with extra buys -- not necessarily even because the player wants to pursue a strategy with that card but because, hey, extra buy.  Why not pick one up?  This is especially true if the $1 card is a cantrip, because they usually can't harm your deck at all.

That said, I think this is probably the best you can do with a $1 cantrip that satisfies your conditions.  I don't like how its harmlessness means people will buy these with extra money/buys just because (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=337.msg4423#msg4423), rather than because they specifically want to pursue a Rats strategy.   But that's the only drawback I can identify now, and it's probably the best revision so far.


Quote
Inheritance – Action – 5$
“You may not reveal Reaction cards while this in play. Gain a Curse. If you do, gain a Duchy and a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."

It's better without the special case rule.  For one thing, it's ineffectual.  If you have Inheritance and a Watchtower in hand, one card says "You may not reveal..." and the other says, "You may reveal...."  Who's to say Inheritance's rule is the one that takes precedence?  Obviously that's what you intend, but who's to say Watchtower's permission doesn't override Inheritance's restriction?

Basically you never want to throw in special case rule changes like this.  You want to make the card work within the rules.  In this case, I think you're find without any finagling.  True, that means this is a powerhouse combo with Watchtower, but that's okay.  It's not like Cache says, "When you gain this, gain two Coppers, and you may not reveal Trader to turn them into Silvers when you do."  And Tactician doesn't say, "You can't play this if you have Black Market in play."  Cool combos like that make the game interesting, and usually such a combo won't be available anyway.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Qvist on November 30, 2011, 09:57:57 am
For me a cantrip can't be a $1 card.
If you compare Rats to Pearl Diver, which are the most basic cantrips and are $2 cards. Rats seems superior to me than those two.
So it's at least a $2 card.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 30, 2011, 10:16:22 am
For me a cantrip can't be a $1 card.
If you compare Rats to Pearl Diver, which are the most basic cantrips and are $2 cards. Rats seems superior to me than those two.
So it's at least a $2 card.
Pearl Diver lets you do something every time it's played, so it's like cantrip+. but Rats just cantrips unless you manage to play 3 on one turn. so it's 'less' than Pearl Diver in most cases. i priced it at 1$ precisely because i want folks to pick it up with extra buys. the idea that players will pick them up 'just because', as rinkworks pointed out, means that getting to 3 on a turn will actually be harder (in other than 2 player games) and that suits me just fine.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jimmmmm on November 30, 2011, 02:32:11 pm
There are many decks where it's going to be possible to be playing three Rats just about every turn. I mean sure, the power of this pales in comparison to something like Familiar, but do you really want to make a $1 card which has the potential to allow someone to hand out the majority of the Curses? Pearl Diver lets you do something every time you play it, but it doesn't do something every time you play it, ie it often doesn't let you do something useful, and once it's useless it's useless until your next shuffle. When Rats does something, it does something really powerful now.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Octo on November 30, 2011, 03:08:53 pm
Chapel + Rats says hello. The cantrip nature means you'd be able to trash shit loads too without conflict. Load 'em up with curses ASAP - gg. God forbid there's some pawns about for cycling +buys.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on November 30, 2011, 11:07:43 pm
Chapel + Rats says hello. The cantrip nature means you'd be able to trash shit loads too without conflict. Load 'em up with curses ASAP - gg. God forbid there's some pawns about for cycling +buys.
if Chapel is in the game, who's gonna be worried about curses? you could get rid of them faster than the Rats could give them out :D
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jimmmmm on December 01, 2011, 01:12:51 am
Chapel + Rats says hello. The cantrip nature means you'd be able to trash shit loads too without conflict. Load 'em up with curses ASAP - gg. God forbid there's some pawns about for cycling +buys.
if Chapel is in the game, who's gonna be worried about curses? you could get rid of them faster than the Rats could give them out :D

That's quite often not true. In a Chapel game, the more you get Cursed, the longer it's going to take you to rebuild after trashing all your Coppers.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: DStu on December 01, 2011, 01:28:50 am
As I understand it, Rats does something at exactly one time during your turn, namely when it's the third time you played it. So when you play it for the fourth time, you don't hand out curses. Five is right out.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jimmmmm on December 01, 2011, 01:36:23 am
Yep so three or more Rats in a slim deck is roughly equivalent to one Familiar.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Octo on December 01, 2011, 06:06:04 am
Quote
if Chapel is in the game, who's gonna be worried about curses? you could get rid of them faster than the Rats could give them out
The thing is that when there's trashing cards out there (remake would be another good example, but opening 2xAmbassador would be rough also) not everyone will go for a trashing strat necessarily (including if chapel is out there). If a certain combo is too strong however, they will forced into a certain strategic response. That happens occasionally in the game already, but the thing is that's not the best game design, it's not as fun to be forced into down fixed paths.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on December 01, 2011, 09:53:05 am
Quote
if Chapel is in the game, who's gonna be worried about curses? you could get rid of them faster than the Rats could give them out
The thing is that when there's trashing cards out there (remake would be another good example, but opening 2xAmbassador would be rough also) not everyone will go for a trashing strat necessarily (including if chapel is out there). If a certain combo is too strong however, they will forced into a certain strategic response. That happens occasionally in the game already, but the thing is that's not the best game design, it's not as fun to be forced into down fixed paths.

That, and also the fact that even if you can and do trash the curses faster than they come in, there is still a huge cost to having to do that in the first place.  If you Chapel away curses on your turn, you're spending an action that might have been better spent on something else.  Moreover, for each curse you Chapel away, that's a lost card slot in your hand.  If you hadn't had that Curse in the first place, maybe you'd have drawn a Goons or a Gold or a Wharf instead.  Even if you'd only have drawn an Estate, that's an Estate that won't have clogged your next turn.

This is the real reason why Cursing attacks are so dominant:  the -1 VP is secondary to the clogging power, even in a game with heavy trashing (though it's obviously much worse without it).

That said, I'm still inclined to give this current Rats the benefit of the doubt.  The trappiness of Fool's Gold and Treasure Map show just how powerful an effect on a cheap card can be if you have to pair them up to activate it.  Rats has a small draw to help you do that, but you need three rather than two.  That said, I'm bewildered why you took my one criticism as a compliment:  the fact that people will buy these just because they're there rather than because they want to pursue a Rats strategy is NOT a good thing.  It's a semi-serious flaw that may indeed make the card itself more fun, but at the expense of the fun of the games in which they appear.  That happens a lot with fan cards:  their creators want the cards to be used, so they make them a little too powerful and/or a little too obligatory.

But I still think the card is worth testing in its latest revision.   You'll discover for yourself better than I can predict how to refine the card from this point.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jack Rudd on December 02, 2011, 07:29:05 pm
Here's a problem with Rats in its latest incarnation:

In a 4-player game, at least one person will necessarily end up with 2 or fewer Rats.

If Rats is the only curser on the board, that person will have a horrible time of it.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Jimmmmm on December 02, 2011, 08:05:51 pm
That's true, although if the other three are all cursing, does it make that much difference whether or not you do? I haven't played enough 4p games to be able to answer this, but it certainly makes a lot less difference than in 2p.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on December 02, 2011, 09:21:38 pm
a) not everybody goes the cursing route
b) even the people who go for 3 Rats won't get to curse all that often, unless they focus on it at the cost of building their deck in other ways
c) if one person decides to really go Rats crazy, there might only be one person in a 4 player game who bought enough Rats to curse.

but that's the point of Rats. it's a weak card that gets better the more you have. if you don't get on board early, when they're weak, you'll miss out on capitalizing on their strength later. this is a solid strategic choice and it makes the card interesting and, imo, fair. but i need to do more playtesting, which is to happen soon...

and @rinkworks: no, i didn't think you were complimenting the design of Rats when you said they might bought 'just because.' but my response is that that criticism is actually a strength in my mind. i said that i wanted Rats to cost 1$ from the start, but i didn't really say why: for 2 reasons, the 1$ makes them both small and insidious. they sneak their way into decks by being a cheap second buy. but they don't really do anything until they reach a critical mass. i like this about the card.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Octo on December 03, 2011, 05:17:20 am
Overall (this is a problem I find with my own card-day-dreams also), the thing is that people tend to think of an image, a style, a thing or object that they want a card to be, then think of what mechanics it should employ. Really we should all be thinking of good card mechanics to play, and then worry about what to call them after the fact (and whether they fit into a set). It's too easy to get hung up and on what you've called the card and fuss over whether the action/mechanics match it or not. So in your case - whether or not the current incarnation is successful - you've hung your hat on the fact that you want a card to embody rats, and so from that have drawn that at least a) it can't be expensive and b) has to occur in multiples. You've also gone so far as to stipulate that you want it cost $1. The card has changed radically, yet the name always remains the same and it generally has been a hinderance to the well being of the card from what I see.

Sure, you might spot a conceptual niche that doesn't have a card etc, but that's more to do with unexploited mechanics and thematic derivation. So, while you may have arrived at a good solution, this is completely the wrong way to go about it in general.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on December 03, 2011, 10:08:58 am
Overall (this is a problem I find with my own card-day-dreams also), the thing is that people tend to think of an image, a style, a thing or object that they want a card to be, then think of what mechanics it should employ. Really we should all be thinking of good card mechanics to play, and then worry about what to call them after the fact (and whether they fit into a set). It's too easy to get hung up and on what you've called the card and fuss over whether the action/mechanics match it or not. So in your case - whether or not the current incarnation is successful - you've hung your hat on the fact that you want a card to embody rats, and so from that have drawn that at least a) it can't be expensive and b) has to occur in multiples. You've also gone so far as to stipulate that you want it cost $1. The card has changed radically, yet the name always remains the same and it generally has been a hinderance to the well being of the card from what I see.

Sure, you might spot a conceptual niche that doesn't have a card etc, but that's more to do with unexploited mechanics and thematic derivation. So, while you may have arrived at a good solution, this is completely the wrong way to go about it in general.

This should be framed and hung over the fireplace.  I don't have a fireplace, but this post is a good reason to get one.

This is true of probably any game, but particularly in Dominion where the flavor is a lot less (and the mechanics more) important than in many other games.

By far my most favorite cards in Dominion are the ones with cool mechanics (Jester, Minion, Golem) rather than the ones with cool flavor (Saboteur, Baron, Jack of All Trades).  I do admire (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=919.msg13934#msg13934) clever flavor, but that's not why Dominion is a great game or why it continues to sustain my interest.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on December 03, 2011, 12:39:57 pm
Overall (this is a problem I find with my own card-day-dreams also), the thing is that people tend to think of an image, a style, a thing or object that they want a card to be, then think of what mechanics it should employ. Really we should all be thinking of good card mechanics to play, and then worry about what to call them after the fact (and whether they fit into a set). It's too easy to get hung up and on what you've called the card and fuss over whether the action/mechanics match it or not. So in your case - whether or not the current incarnation is successful - you've hung your hat on the fact that you want a card to embody rats, and so from that have drawn that at least a) it can't be expensive and b) has to occur in multiples. You've also gone so far as to stipulate that you want it cost $1. The card has changed radically, yet the name always remains the same and it generally has been a hinderance to the well being of the card from what I see.

Sure, you might spot a conceptual niche that doesn't have a card etc, but that's more to do with unexploited mechanics and thematic derivation. So, while you may have arrived at a good solution, this is completely the wrong way to go about it in general.

This should be framed and hung over the fireplace.  I don't have a fireplace, but this post is a good reason to get one.

This is true of probably any game, but particularly in Dominion where the flavor is a lot less (and the mechanics more) important than in many other games.

By far my most favorite cards in Dominion are the ones with cool mechanics (Jester, Minion, Golem) rather than the ones with cool flavor (Saboteur, Baron, Jack of All Trades).  I do admire (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=919.msg13934#msg13934) clever flavor, but that's not why Dominion is a great game or why it continues to sustain my interest.
and while i am dedicated to solid mechanics, i completely disagree with both of you on this point. not that you're wrong. not at all. only that i also am right.
there are at least 2 ways of going about things, in this case card creation. from the ground up and top down. if i'm inspired by a concept and then work hard enough to make it work, that creation is equal in merit to a card created based on mechanics and then dressed up in flavor after the fact. both will appeal to different people. and there are good and bad things to both approaches. but to say your favored approach is the 'right' one, should be the 'only' one, is too limited a view.
i just want to stand up for those of us who'd rather dream first and do the math later.

EDIT: sorry if i offended anybody.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on December 03, 2011, 01:54:41 pm
Saying "not to be insulting" doesn't make it okay to say something insulting.  Not to be insulting.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on December 03, 2011, 02:26:28 pm
Saying "not to be insulting" doesn't make it okay to say something insulting.  Not to be insulting.
i truly did not mean to be insulting and added that comment because i was afraid i would be taken the wrong way. i guess i should have just re-worded it from the start (as i have edited it above), but i feel very strongly on this issue. sorry if you took offense, but i took offense at having my creative process labeled as 'completely the wrong way to go about it.'
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Octo on December 03, 2011, 03:55:52 pm
Yeah, well, maybe "completely the wrong way to go about it" was too harsh, and at the end of the day if the cards are good when it's all said and done then how you got there doesn't matter. However, you hit on the key point when you say "work hard enough to make it work" - it's much trickier to make cards that work from that direction, hence why rats is being such a problem.

I'm pretty sure though that most people would agree that the flavour in Dominion is minimal and it's the mechanics that make it so addictive - frankly, the game could be about just about anything at all, most of the time the people I play with barely consider what the cards actually represent. Compare to something like Pandemic which is absolutely bursting with theme - sure you could translate it to other themes, but the petri dishes, the world map, the scientific roles, all of it, accentuate it and give it a ton of flavour.

So it's because of this that with dominion the mechanical interactions of the cards are of prime importance so that they aren't outclassed by the existing set (that's a big ask though), and so nailing the mechanics should, in my opinion, be the main priority and first port of call. Would I like the game to be super themey? Sure. But the mechanics of it just don't promote that (though to be honest, a little italic line of flavour text on each card could've been a great addition to this game if done right). Still, after it's all said and done, I'm never going to play with these - nothing personal, I'm just not about to make a set of random people's fan cards - so whatever floats your boat really. We can all say the cards are great and fine as they are, which would be banal and pointless. Or we can all not get into strong disagreements about these cards and methods, but then you'd probably have a half-empty thread with some tepid critique that peters out. *shrugs*
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Saucery on December 03, 2011, 04:52:16 pm
It doesn't matter where you start, whether its being inspired by a visual theme/concept or by some kind of mechanic that hasn't been explored yet. The problem here appears to be the iteration process between the two. If you keep putting bandaid solutions on a card design you end up with something which is needlessly complicated and should start over with just the original idea.

I'm sure there are a gazillion ways to represent the basic theme(s) of the card.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: rinkworks on December 04, 2011, 01:56:28 pm
Here's the thing.  When you think about flavor, you have the whole of human history at your disposal.  Even if you stick with Dominion's medieval theme (which you don't have to) there are limitless possibilities.  You've got the whole worlds of zoology, botany, metallurgy, leatherworking, chemistry, agriculture, and warfare.  You've got landscaping and trinket-making and mining and civil engineering.  You can delve into academia or politics or society, deal with the nobility or the working classes or criminal masterminds.  You can edge into fantasy with mythical creatures and magic and heroes and villains.  There are myriad roles and professions and accoutrements of all the world's cultures and religions and artifacts.  No matter what you want to do, there are hundreds if not thousands of great people or places or things that fit the flavor.

The game of Dominion, however, is teensy weensy by comparison.  Basically all you can do is manage your deck, earn coins, and accrue points.  And interfere with your opponents' ability to do those things too.  You've got 4-5 vanilla bonuses, and you can move cards in different ways between a limited number of places.  That's it.  And most of the interesting ways to combine these things have already been done!  I do believe there is plenty of room left for fan cards, but they're almost all variations on existing themes rather than wholly new ideas.

What I'm getting at is that if you've got a particular Dominion mechanic that you want, you should have no problem at all finding a name with great flavor for it that reflects the concept.  This is not, and cannot, be true if you go the other direction.  Because the entire world and all of human history is a pretty wide net, it's necessarily the case that many possible names and flavors -- probably the vast majority, in fact -- will not make a great flavor match to any good Dominion mechanics.

Understand, I don't fault anyone for arriving at a great Dominion card by starting with the flavor.  A great Dominion card is a great Dominion card, period.  But if you start with the flavor and wind up with a great Dominion card, you got lucky.  And to design cards that way as a matter of course is probably foolhardy and doomed to failure overall.  Because some concepts cannot make great Dominion cards.  What's liable to happen is exactly what's happened here:  you struggle to find a mechanic that fits the flavor, go through many more revisions than most cards ever see or need, then find something that's interesting but flawed -- something that might be improvable, but won't be, because you're constrained by the arbitrary flavor parameters you set out for yourself at the outset.

But find a great Dominion mechanic first, and you can pretty much guarantee that there are great names for it out there somewhere.  You might have a hard time thinking of one, but you never have to worry that the problem might lack a solution.

Ultimately, if you really want to start with the flavor, by all means, do it.  Why shouldn't you?  But don't mistake that path as being an equally legitimate way to design a great Dominion card, and don't expect your fellow game designers, whose opinions you've solicited here, to be behind you on that path.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on January 15, 2012, 07:54:57 am
okay, i've just thought up a whole new version of my infamous Rats card. one that might satisfy my critics out there... or gain me new ones  :-\

Rats – Action-Attack – 1$
Trash this card and each other player gains a Curse.
Setup: Add an extra Kingdom card pile to the supply. Then, shuffle that pile and the Rats pile together into a single pile.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Glooble on January 15, 2012, 08:09:25 am
I assume you can only gain the card on top of the pile?
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on January 15, 2012, 08:46:57 am
I assume you can only gain the card on top of the pile?
yes, that's my intent. thanks for the question Glooble. i'm thinking i don't need to say that on the card, because the top card of a Kingdom pile represents which Kingdom it is. but maybe this is just an assumption of mine. rules gurus? do i need to be explicit about this?

if so, then will this do?
Rats – Action-Attack – 1$
Trash this card and each other player gains a Curse.
Setup: Add an extra Kingdom card pile to the supply. Then, shuffle that pile and the Rats pile together into a single pile. Cards from this pile may only be gained from the top.

and how about this new version of Morgue?
Morgue - Action - 4$
"Reveal all cards in your discard pile. Choose one of them and put it into your hand."
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: FishingVillage on January 15, 2012, 09:32:55 pm
Are we allowed to peek at the pile containing Rats to see the order of the cards?
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on January 15, 2012, 10:38:08 pm
Are we allowed to peek at the pile containing Rats to see the order of the cards?
i don't think this has been made explicit in the rules, since a situation where this would be important has never presented itself. i would thus assume, yes, you can look at the order. but this is one of those 'rules' that i don't think needs to be on the card itself, just as Black Market has necessary understandings that are not printed on it.
but i do now think that the "Cards from this pile may only be gained from the top." text is necessary unfortunately.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: FishingVillage on January 16, 2012, 12:17:46 am
Are we allowed to peek at the pile containing Rats to see the order of the cards?
i don't think this has been made explicit in the rules, since a situation where this would be important has never presented itself. i would thus assume, yes, you can look at the order. but this is one of those 'rules' that i don't think needs to be on the card itself, just as Black Market has necessary understandings that are not printed on it.
but i do now think that the "Cards from this pile may only be gained from the top." text is necessary unfortunately.
Well it might be important to know if I uncover a Rat or not upon buying something off of that pile. If I have this knowledge I'll likely hold off from buying it until I have enough buys and money for both, or any combination of card X with N Rats directly underneath.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on January 16, 2012, 08:18:35 pm
Well it might be important to know if I uncover a Rat or not upon buying something off of that pile. If I have this knowledge I'll likely hold off from buying it until I have enough buys and money for both, or any combination of card X with N Rats directly underneath.
you're absolutely right. it is important to know that. and i'm saying that, yes, you can look to see the order BUT i don't think that has to be printed on the card. it can be explained on the rule sheet, just as every expansion and promo already includes.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: FishingVillage on January 16, 2012, 08:26:51 pm
Ah ok, got it. Thanks for the clarification.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on August 08, 2012, 04:14:48 pm
well, i just wanted to point out that i called it ALL here. so many of the problems you guys had with my cards are now present in Dark Ages:
a. $1 cards
b. new types of Curses (Ruins)
c. cards that let you get things from the trash
d. cards that care about the order of the supply stack they are in
e. there's even a card that cares what Treasures you have in hand before the buy phase (which was an earlier design for Relief that i might go back to)
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Schneau on August 08, 2012, 04:37:55 pm
well, i just wanted to point out that i called it ALL here. so many of the problems you guys had with my cards are now present in Dark Ages:
a. $1 cards
b. new types of Curses (Ruins)
c. cards that let you get things from the trash
d. cards that care about the order of the supply stack they are in
e. there's even a card that cares what Treasures you have in hand before the buy phase (which was an earlier design for Relief that i might go back to)

Donald X., is that you?
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on August 09, 2012, 09:27:20 am
well, i just wanted to point out that i called it ALL here. so many of the problems you guys had with my cards are now present in Dark Ages:
a. $1 cards
b. new types of Curses (Ruins)
c. cards that let you get things from the trash
d. cards that care about the order of the supply stack they are in
e. there's even a card that cares what Treasures you have in hand before the buy phase (which was an earlier design for Relief that i might go back to)
f. Rats!
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: zahlman on August 09, 2012, 11:13:51 am
well, i just wanted to point out that i called it ALL here. so many of the problems you guys had with my cards are now present in Dark Ages:
a. $1 cards
b. new types of Curses (Ruins)
c. cards that let you get things from the trash
d. cards that care about the order of the supply stack they are in
e. there's even a card that cares what Treasures you have in hand before the buy phase (which was an earlier design for Relief that i might go back to)
f. Rats!

Damn, you beat me to it. Seriously, this is uncanny, though.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on August 09, 2012, 01:08:26 pm
yeah, uncanny is one word; i can think of others...
what's more, not only does he call Rats his favorite card in Dominion, there's to be 20 of them and another card which i'm guessing will allow you to give them to other players which was also in an early design of my Rats (one of the first iterations had you place the Rats on another player's deck after you played it).
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: eHalcyon on August 09, 2012, 01:19:47 pm
yeah, uncanny is one word; i can think of others...
what's more, not only does he call Rats his favorite card in Dominion, there's to be 20 of them and another card which i'm guessing will allow you to give them to other players which was also in an early design of my Rats (one of the first iterations had you place the Rats on another player's deck after you played it).

Are you implying what I think you're implying?  ???
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: plasticbrain on August 09, 2012, 01:33:14 pm
Are you implying what I think you're implying?  ???
only jokingly.
one of the largest problems (for others) with my set was its overuse of Curses, since a) they hurt, and b) there's a limited supply. Donald X has solved both these issues by adding Ruins to the game. they're still bad, they still clog up your deck, but a) they don't hurt so much because they have small possibly positive effects and don't hurt your VP score, and b) they're a whole other stack from Curses so there's plenty of them. frankly, i would have proposed something similar but i was trying so hard to stay within the structure of known Dominion. Donald didn't have this restriction and has blatantly ignored expectations with this set. i applaud him and am anxious to get my hands on Dark Ages.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: JaEmBee on August 13, 2015, 11:01:59 pm
Is there a link to a downloadable PDF for printing? I'd love to try these out!!  Thank you!
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: Graystripe77 on August 14, 2015, 11:03:04 pm
Is there a link to a downloadable PDF for printing? I'd love to try these out!!  Thank you!

wow, the three year resurrection. didn't think I'd see one.
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: GeeJo on August 16, 2015, 02:19:54 am
Is there a link to a downloadable PDF for printing? I'd love to try these out!!  Thank you!

I don't think so, but glancing over the list there are quite a few that I like the idea of. "Rats" in particular with its shuffling into another pile is great! Since I had some free time, here are some mock-ups of the cards to print yourself. It's surprisingly difficult to find disease-themed art that isn't so morbid it would seem out of place among the other Dominion cards. I've done a bit of shuffling around of names, since some have been used since these were posted, and Mortuary sounds more medieval than Morgue.

I also took it upon myself to remove the Action portion of Sewers, since it seems more interesting without it (though it's still going to be ridiculously strong on a board with Beggar), and switched the functionality of Morgue/Mortuary to use the + tokens from Adventures, which is a cleaner execution of the same idea. I can re-up them with the original wordings if you prefer.

(http://i.imgur.com/NOPCKnI.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/V5zzkjf.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/OZJHAhx.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/8oqGab4.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/aZMwOUa.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/Jn0SntL.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/TsSw5el.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/YgXroF7.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/jX9sSnE.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/79pP5Do.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/RFc8Cxq.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/usN4zWw.png)(http://i.imgur.com/F3wtrnG.jpg)
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: ancientcampus on August 19, 2015, 11:41:47 pm
Quarantine: I like the concept. I realize it was powered it up on request, but as it stands it's pretty broken IMO.

Will I take a 2 VP penalty in order to get access to $3 laboratories? Heck yes I will, even without the option to power it up. The ability to switch it to +buy or +coin on demand pushes it beyond "great". I would probably open Quarantine/Quarantine, race to get 8-10 curses on my mat if uncontested. I'm inclined to think the game would devolve into rushing quarantine, piling curses, piling quarantine, and then a complicated dance with duchies and provinces. (Like Rebuild, it'd still be pretty fun for a few games, though.)

GeeJo's version using tokens is a little more balanced, especially if it's competing with a lot of Adventurers cards. I'd still probably Quarantine/Quarantine anyways.


Poisoned Well: oh my word, you're evil. I love it.

Relief: also great. Great given the set (we've all been in brutal slogs before), but also works well in engines. (Come to think, it's very much like a proto poor house)
Title: Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
Post by: GendoIkari on August 21, 2015, 10:24:01 am
Miracle might be way too good if you get it early (opening with it with Baker or Borrow). Reveal 4 Coppers, get a Prize turn 3.

I don't like the idea of referring to the expansion name like Plague Doctor does. I know the expansion symbol is on the card, but that's generally just metadata, not part of the card text. It would be kind of like referring to the artist name. Of course, the official rules for choosing Shelters and Colonies care about what set a card is from, so there's something of a precedent.

Lots of neat ideas there.